Judgment and the Kingdom

September 8, 2000

We all realize that there will be a judgment. The confusing part is that there will be several. Some time ago I called for a discussion on the resurrections and got little response, something that I needed to work out myself I thought, but the group is much larger now. The idea of the judgments and especially the resurrection judgment keeps coming to my mind from time to time and I would like a good prophetic discussion on it. I am sure that it is just the confusion that I have about these things, I hate being confused so I am bringing it to the group. The church teaches only heaven and hell and spiritualizes the kingdom to come. Where is the interpretation on these things?

I have discussed this briefly with Mike Brutto. Anyway, the idea of several judgments, two or three resurrections, the kingdom on earth and the kingdom of heaven is a real mystery to me. Put into it the idea of saints being alive in heaven now and others in the Lord asleep awaiting resurrection judgment and you are only left with more questions. The JW's seem to think they have it all worked out but without the true witness of the prophetic spirit, they cannot be trusted. Nature of Christ heresies aside, the witnesses still seem to have come the closest.

The earth will be populated during the millenium. Will this be flesh and blood? The prophecies of Isaiah suggest precisely this. We know that our swords have not been beaten into plowshares, so an a-millennial interpretation makes no sense to me; neither has the lion laid down with the lamb with children leading them. But then again, there will be a resurrection at the end of the millenium, Gog and Magog are again loosed to make war after no war is to be learned. The first resurrection at the end of the thousand years seems to be what John's revelation teaches. That doesn't make sense.

During this time, the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord. It will be a new earth, there will be no sea, all tears shall be wiped away, suckling children will play with snakes, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the desert will bloom and the wilderness blossom and the parched land sprout pools. We will live in the houses that we ourselves have built, not others, we will eat the fruit from our own vineyards, each under our own vine and fig tree. No more hunger or thirst, the Lamb shall feed them and they will drink of the fountain of living waters. Do these pertain to flesh and blood? Are not these things yet to come? No more violence or oppression, nor more darkness, the Lord Himself will be our light. Are we to spiritualize these things as to the Christian era? Are we to preach a heaven and hell and ignore the kingdom to come, should not the gospel of the kingdom include the millenium?

The last discussion on justification and sanctification is very pertinent here. This is the effect and perhaps even the essence of our very salvation. Those translated in a "twinkling of an eye" are very different from those that asleep and await judgment. We know that judgment has already been pronounced on those that have not accepted Jesus and that we are not under condemnation if we are truly in Christ Jesus. Then where is the judgment? Is it while we are yet living? or upon resurrection? or both? We shall "all" stand before the judgment seat of Christ?

No answers here, only questions. There are many thoughts on the matter, so we need not fear being wrong, only inquisitive. Can we come up with answers, or should these things remain a mystery? I have never heard adequate answers on these things to dispel my confusion. I cannot believe that we are to remain in a condition of confusion, or is it just me? Mike made the point that "Now, how can this not interest the group? Our salvation and where we wind up at the end of this life should be the most important thing on all of our minds. What else is more important than that?"

So what do you think?


Jay, Everybody seems to be saying they are in favor of love, but I am a little unclear as to what they mean by it; so I want to try to write a little essay on my understanding of it.

Love, in Scripture, is not just an emotion or good feeling, but a redemptive course of action. God so loved the world, messed up as it was, that He gave His only Son (a rather drastic course of action).

The Son showed the love of God throughout His earthly ministry by

  1. Healing the sick
  2. Kicking out demons.
  3. Forgiving sins.
  4. Proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom.

He spent most of His time teaching His disciples to do the same kind of things. So I assume He still wants disciples to learn to do likewise.

He climaxed and validated all of the above by sacrificing His life for us. "Greater love has no man than this," we are told, "than to give up His life for His friends." I don't think that this means that we necessarily have to be crucified or meet some similarly gruesome death, but we should probably be available for it if need arises. We do know that the Gospel is prospering the most in places where the most people are getting killed for their faith.

All of the above are really works of the Holy Spirit. After all, everything that Jesus did was a gift of the Spirit. He was able to say honestly that everything He said and did was given to Him from the Father. He spoke the Father's words and did His works.

The relationship between the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit are made clear in 1 Corinthians 12--14. Love divorced from the manifestation of the Spirit , is just a nice feeling, or, at best, human love. The gifts of the Spirit without love are just showing off. You can't really have one without the other.

The works of love listed above are the way that Jesus demonstrated and taught His redemptive purpose of restoring all things.

If we do these things, we will not only get into trouble/persecution, but we will see the glorious purposes of God unfold in preparation for His coming and the full establishment of His Kingdom.

Edwin Stube


Jay, I have for some days been intending to tell who I am. I am a retired Episcopal priest living in Baltimore, Maryland. I got involved in the charismatic scene in the late 1950's. I received a prophecy, given to me in two distinct times and places, but apparently in exactly the same words, calling me to be an apostle to go to a remote place, do signs and wonders, make converts and disciple many. Rather stringent requirements were also given--give up all our money, be separated from family a lot, go wherever the Lord said. This was at a time when almost nobody thought there were apostles. I spent 7 years in preparation, pastoring the Lord's flocks on the prairies of Montana, reading the Bible from cover to cover over and over. In 1965, after three months of 24-hour a day prayer, we quickly incorporated a little prayer group in the name of The Holy Way and left within a month for Indonesia. All that had been prophesied did indeed happen.

We learned directly from the Lord, with some help from Bill Britton, most of the lessons that we have recently been talking about on the email--five-fold ministry, manifest sons, entire sanctification, Biblical patterns for evangelism and church planting, miracle ministry, end-time truths, etc. By studying the methods of Jesus and His followers, we developed a radical method of training disciples. We gather little groups of people, who go wherever the Lord directs and see what He is doing. When there is opportunity, we sit down and talk over what we have seen. In 1972, we had a totally supernatural Bible Camp on the subject of the world mission of the church. The Lord taught us that ministry never rises above the level of worship. If we worship in the natural, we will have to set up natural strategies for ministry. If we worship in the Spirit, we will be able to minister by the gifts of the Spirit. If we worship in the Holy of Holies (in the presence of the Lord) we will be able to export the glorious presence of the Lord wherever we go. At the close of the Camp, teams were sent out to many of the islands of Indonesia and even to other countries. Today there are training centers in all of the islands visited. Most of our graduates have established training programs in other parts of the country. We survived the attempted communist coup in 1965.We met great opposition and persecution from churches. Now, many of the churches that opposed us are practicing what we taught. The whole spiritual climate has changed. The work was indigenized in 1977, when our family returned to the United States. It has really flourished since we left.

For many years, we have prayed for similar things to happen in the United States. We rejoice that now there is an openness to these things. We have now opened two worship centers in this country, one in Virginia and one in North Carolina. We think that these will become training centers, using the methods and according to the vision the Lord has taught us. At present the Lord is using younger people for the active parts of the ministry. He has me mostly in a prophetic mode and communicating with friends on the internet, trying to spread the vision.

In Jesus' love,
Edwin Stube

WHERE DID ALL OF THE LOVE GO??? (smile) Jay, my friend and brother in Christ, to whom much is given, much is required. Yet, you have a powerful Father with you. And many of us feel the same way that you do. Keep feeding us, brother. "Be of good courage."

Bill Caraway

Hi Jay i thought the latest discussion was really good, and you answered that guy very very wisely. i think the other person was maybe right about the use of the word 'heresy'. i maybe should have said 'counterfeit' or something abit softer. i don't know. well take care bro


Hi Dean,

I wrote back and asked James that mentioned heresy to elaborate on exactly what he was referring to. I did not even realize that it might have been you, I saw nothing wrong with it and thought it must have been me. He did not get back to me before this last one, but today I got a letter saying that HE was sorry for getting carried away. A little self-examination is good for all of us.


Bro Atkinson:

My name is Norman Gillis. I did not receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost until I was 45. I had wandered around, touching a lot of religious denominations and philosophies until the Lord called me to the Body of Christ in 1981. I was ordained to the ministry of the Body, and sent to Saltillo, Mexico as an evangelist to help with the churches there in Mexico.

After nine months in Mexico my wife and I returned to California to take care of family business and medical treatments. We plan to return to Mexico as soon as the Lord makes a way.

Norman Gillis OmniSalud de Saltillo

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