Manifest Sons and Theosis

August 26, 2000

The responses say it all. Linda spoke of Theosis last time, Dean responded and more from Linda. Then everyone - almost - pretty much agree on justification by faith and the process of sanctification. It was mentioned that we are "all" justified and sanctified, but better is what was also mentioned in that we are all justified and being sanctified. The true manifest doctrine of sons "doctrine" has been misinterpreted in the past so we should get it right this time. There are some introductions and manifest sons insights below that are real good. It is Jesus that was sent to overcome puritanical thinking. The more like Jesus we become, the more divine we are. He unites Our brokenness as the bread of His body and joins our spirit with the blood of His veins. The Manifest Sons really are called to unite and prepare the Body for sanctification as the Bride and we are a part of that whole, although the church does need to be defined more clearly. More and more, those getting out of Babylon need to know the way of holiness and restoration. Be thinking of discussing plans of action toward empowerment that some in this group seem to want to take.


Manifest Sons and Theosis:

Hi Jay and list.
I agree with Linda about theosis. Let me backtrack a little first.
As I understand it, the original people involved in the Latter day rain movement denied the teaching of the rapture, and spiritualized the meaning. This is why a lot of evangelicals think that we don't believe it either.
But what the Latter rain was saying is this - that Adam was created in a state of perfection, but not full maturity. That Adam had to grow up in all things to the measure of the stature of Christ. When the fall came, that purpose was still there, and we are to grow up and become like him, and partake of the divine nature, that we might be fully transformed. This will eventually lead to the church fully walking in its' divine authority, which is what the Latter rain movement taught and stood for.

Declaration or Transformation?
Protestants have invented a 'justification' which is simply being declared righteous, called forensic justification, which means it is a legal thing only. I believe the Greek word 'justification' means 'being made righteous', by a spiritual infusion, by a transformation of the heart and of the nature through faith. Protestants, especially Calvinists, condemn this as Roman Catholic heresy.

"The English verb "justify" comes straight from the Latin justificio which is a verb that belonged to the Roman law courts. The noun justificatio from which we transliterated the English word "justification" means that an accused person is pronounced free of condemnation and punishment. It was an essential part of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the atonement, and justification by faith alone became the rallying crying of the Reformation." Did Paul Teach Law Court Justification? Robert Brow

So the problem is that our English word comes from a Latin, and not Greek word, and this Latin word has the idea of a pronouncement, whereas the Greek has the view of making righteous.

If this is true, and I believe it is, then this would mean that Protestantism has fundamentally misunderstood salvation. Only the line of the Arminian, Pietist, Wesleyan, Pentecostal and Latter Rain movements have restored the apostolic foundation in this area, and this line of truth has been rejected by most evangelicals today.

What is true justification? It is having our hearts and natures transformed through faith. It is a purification through faith. The Word says 'And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.' Acts 15:9

But what do Protestants say? They do not tend to see faith so much as a transformation of nature. Some go as far as to say that we believe with our minds, when the Scripture says we believe with our hearts. Justification then becomes an intellectual belief, resulting in God declaring us righteous (or so it is hoped). People are then told that it doesn't matter if you don't feel anything, just accept it by faith. But the word says that if we have passed from death to life, then we have the witness within ourselves, even the Spirit of the Father, crying out in our hearts and bearing witness with our spirits that we are children of God. When Protestants understand faith as being from the heart, and of causing an inner change, then the doctrine of Justification by Faith is the liberating doctrine known to man. But when is it perverted and corrupted it is a damnable heresy. No wonder Wesley said that mental assent is the counterfeit of heart faith.

Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos says of Protestants:

"They suppose that believing in God, intellectually, constitutes salvation. Yet salvation is not a matter of intellectual acceptance of truth; rather it is a person's transformation and divinization by grace."

This is where Theosis comes in. Theosis is the transformation of our nature to be like His. It means "sharing the divine nature". This does not mean becoming God, or being transformed into his essence, but being transformed by his divine energies.

I suspect that it is this understanding which has kept Orthodoxy from experiencing anything comparable to the Reformation.

God's purpose has from the beginning to bring many sons to glory. How can we be sons, accept by becoming like him?

Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.".. . For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.

Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god

"God became man so that men might become gods." And again

The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods .... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life

"He gave us divinity
We gave him humanity."
That is a quotation from Ephraim the syrian

"But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1: 12]. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods

St Symeon the New Theologian (tenth century)
'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.' . . .

Martin Luther

commentary on Galatians 3:9,
The one who has faith is a completely divine man, a son of God, the inheritor of the universe. He is the victor over the world, sin, death, and the devil"

Dictata super Psalterium

Methodist Hymn (Charles Wesley)
He deigns in flesh to appear
Widest extremes to join;
To bring our vileness near,
And make us all divine
And we the life of God shall know.
For God is manifest below.

C. S. Lewis,

"The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him--for we can prevent Him, if we choose --He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said. "

Paul Crouch (Trinity Broadcasting Network)
"I am a little god. I have His name. I am one with Him. I'm in covenant relation. I am a little god. Critics begone."

Kenneth Hagin
"Man…was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority…God has made us as much like Himself as possible…He made us the same class of being that He is Himself…Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God…The believer is called Christ…That's who we are; we're Christ!" (Kenneth M. Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life (Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, Inc., 1989), 35-36, 41.

Dean Furlong

May we lavish upon one another the Grace of Jesus
The Love of the Father.. and the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit! =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=

St. Kyril of Alexandria:
"It is untrue to say that we cannot be one with God except by union of will. For above that union there is another union more sublime and far superior, which is wrought by the communication of the Divinity to man, who, while keeping his own nature, is, so to speak, transformed into God, just as iron plunged into fire becomes fiery, and while remaining iron seems changed into fire.... Union with God cannot exist otherwise than by participation with the Holy Spirit, diffusing in us the sanctification proper to Himself, imprinting and engraving on our souls the divine likeness."

Dear Jay and list,
In the preparation for my calling in this day, the Lord led me to the study of the Christian Mystics, and especially the "Beguines" with whom I identify, because our Lord identified me with them. He brought me to them to learn the Ways of Love. They were called the "Love-mystics" in the middle ages, and eventually their passion, devotion and adoration for our Lord Jesus caused them to be excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I would have to say, that same LOVE in me has caused me also to be "excommunicated" from my Protestant upbringing too.

The Lord continues to bring division, even as He said He would, and yet, those being "called out" are being gathered into His Sheepfolds of faith. This quote by one of the Eastern Orthodox fathers expresses what I have experienced and believe: that just as iron plunged into fire becomes FIERY.. so we also, immersed in Union with our Beloved manifest His Loveliness, His Beauty, His Power, His Holiness. It is not about us.. it is about HIM. We become like Him, although not in His Divine Essence, but through His Energies, His Graces, we partake of His Divine Nature.. becoming Fiery as the iron inserted into the fire become like the Fire... taking on the characteristics (Name/Nature) of the Fire.

His Fiery Love consumes in us all things which cannot remain in His Presence. The Bride has been coming through a time of purification and cleansing -- as His Relentless Grace searches out every root of self-love in our hearts... every idol, every bit of false "self" we have created to cover ourselves with (fig leaves).. bringing all the darkness in our hearts, out into the Light, that we might, through the Living Work of the Cross, cry for the Holy Spirit to put to death these "misdeeds of our body"... a "flesh crucifixion" which has already been accomplished in Christ Jesus... yet we are to appropriate it by our faith. We lay hold of by faith that which Jesus has already done and in this faith-action, His Victory is manifested in our flesh, and one more degree of darkness is consumed in His Fiery LOVE! Over and over this has been happening as the Lord will have a pure and spotless Bride.. He has been doing this hidden work, that only the Bride knows of, yet when He is ready... the Glory shall be manifested and the LIGHT shall come forth, Love's Vengeance released through the Bride/Sons to consume the evils that continue to hold others of His Heart captive!

This is the unveiling, the revealing... for HE is peeling from our bodies, all that had kept Him hidden. As we by faith, embrace this sanctifying-cleansing work of the Holy Spirit, we are engrafted into the Crucified One, that when He says the Word, we shall come forth in the Light of the Transfiguration, even as He is. Jesus shall come forth to be glorified in His Holy People.. those who truly did Love Truth... for without the Love of Truth, they would have fallen back into ease and complacency... but these, "the saints and the faithful".. were willing to face the truth about themselves, and in true humility, having seen the utter depravity of their hearts, they could then be birthed into Unity of the Trinity!

The Eastern Orthodox teach that it is only a remnant of the Church who press on into this Union in Love... not all are willing to pay the price. Not all are willing to endure the Fiery works of Love... but there have been some in every generation who have overcome. These we shall see manifested on the earth, as Jesus comes to restore His Name.. and to be glorified in His Holy People... in His Nachal, in His Inheritance. The sons who grew up from the Seed He planted in death.. they too rise up in new LIFE.. and that Quickening LIFE they shall impart to others, as they go forth In His Name/Nature, fully submitted to Him, even as a son is to a Father. This is the Day of His Revealing.. May we rejoice that we are awake and in Love, for all the heavens long to see what we shall see. your sister Linda the Beguine.

( Jay, by way of introduction: I am 50, married, mother of 4 and spiritual mother to many, Christian of 42 years, Spirit filled for 28 years, Baptized in the Love of God in 1990, and reborn again in Love.. called "to be love for Love". Ministry to the Bride and the birthing of His sons; I minister on the streets of Sandpoint, Idaho, one of those who has been taken away from the 99 to go and find "the one". The Lord has been doing Spiritual Healings mostly.. in brokenhearted and abused women, deliverance ministry.. as His LOVE continues to flow forth to set the captives free. My Beguine name to me means: Servant of Love...that is all I claim to be. A Love Slave of Jesus.. one of His Bride. I belong to Jesus.)

to join my e-mail discussion group:

My name is Richard Breazeale, and I go by the name Lazarus. It fits me, for I was dead, but now I am alive in Messiah Yeshua.
I have no grand things to say about myself or my calling. But I have grand boasts of my Lord Yeshua. I am a testimony of His grace and mercy and love for His creation.

I have no wisdom to add to this list other than what my Lord may give through me when and if He wills. My knowledge and understanding is totally dependent upon His good pleasure to give or not give. I am at a place in this walk where I feel I am coming to the end of myself. And I hear this small still voice say, YES! Self....crucified with Him near 2000 years ago..and still struggling to live.

I am encouraged when I read Pauls trials and testings in this area of the walk in Romans. I praise the Lord for revealing to His people through His Apostles and Prophets their own lack and imperfections as they walked and often ran towards Him.

Yes, I am justified by the work done at the cross. And I am being sanctified by laying hold of the truth of that work in faith and trust. Without running from it. And allowing Him to work it in and through me. All of Him, from Him, to Him.

To KNOW that of myself I can do nothing aside or apart from that eternal act of love and mercy upon mankind that means anything. Prayer? We all have need of lifting up each other to never think we have come beyond the cross and have no need of looking to it, to Him.

I seek to look to things eternal, to put behind me things of this flesh and its ways. To see so far beyond this temporal life that I can not but walk in the spirit. Not having achieved this yet what can I do but press on? He has the words of life.

There are many words out there these days. Many, many words. Everybody wants to be a prophet, an apostle. No one hardly knows what that means as yet. But in a word it ultimately means to 'serve'. A servant to all, a fool for many, a man acquainted with sorrows and suffering, finding eventually His only joy in Messiah and following Him, knowing Him. A sent servant/slave of the Gospel of Yeshua Messiah.

Manifest sons of God? These will be those who have been consumed in the fires of His word and presence. Until there is nothing left but His light, His glory, no seeking of it for themselves at all. Those this world is not worthy of.

Those who are obedient, nothing more, nothing less. Willing to lose all for the high calling of Messiah Yeshua. Those who have come to know and realize there is nothing else worthy, or needed.

Down and out? No. Tired, weary? Maybe some. Expectant? You Bet! All births come through much travail and labor. If not then it is most likely a false alarm. So I praise Him! For He is worthy to be praised!

So whats next? What exactly is being birthed? For once I can honestly say I haven't a clue. But something inside of me tells me something big is up with the Lord. Something that will totally bewilder and amaze even those who see and hear so well.

I keep hearing, 'the zeal of the Lord will accomplish this...!' and that it will be such that no man can say it was of man, all will know it was of the Lord.

Everywhere I go right now He is doing something when two or more gather together in His name. Not their name, not for their blessings or to give their words. But just to share and hear from each other what they are feeling in the Lord. Suddenly! He just starts speaking, through His people.

The only place I dont find this is where there is any self glorying coming from any. In that case I feel a deep lacking of His presence and a deep desire to leave in myself. Perhaps it is even the Spirit allowing them to have their glory..for now.

Just think, no one being the center of attention, and everyone becoming so overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit within that they leave later saying, 'WOW! Did you get that!?' 'Wasn't that amazing?' Seeing the pieces come together in revelation which brings one to where they can't set still, can't not preach or proclaim His majesty?

Well anyway, just thought I would introduce myself. And share a little of what is happening right now in the body.

Press in and gather together in His name. Check yourselves in at the door and let Him move through you! Just hang together, love one another, and lay hold of this thing.

Be blessed in Messiah Yeshua.....laz

I also think that [Unidentified site] website is disgusting. Direct misquotes are illegal; but how much protection does anyone have on the Internet with regard to such things? Who would enforce it? And would that, then, violate the 'free speech for all' motto of the Web?. Someone, if not Mr. Joyner himself, could insist on a correction at least. It seems to me, however, that for every valid teaching, gift, etc., Satan makes certain there is a directly-opposite sort of counter! The Word says 'we wrestle not with Flesh and Blood'. Our Enemy walks about both as a roaring lion and an angel of light, capable of deafening spiritual ears and blinding spiritual eyes. And he is very good at smokescreens, delusions, and twisting Scripture itself; why should we be surprised if he twists and perverts our words? ) We, of a 'Charismatic' background, realize that being 'saved' brings with it 'being born of the Spirit'; but that 'the Baptism in the Holy Spirit' and 'being filled with the Holy Spirit' are 2 totally separate things. But, the Traditional, non-Charismatic church does NOT know this. They believe all of this happens all at once, to everyone, in a once-and-for-all total package. But, they also believe that there are no Gifts, or Manifestations, or Five-Fold Ministry, thinking these were all for Biblical times only. They are being deluded by Satan. The Bible tells us that 'the Holy Spirit will teach us' and 'lead us into all Truth'. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs once, of course, but 'the infilling' or 'being filled with the Holy Spirit' is an ever-on-going experience.

Sanctification is what happens when we voluntarily and deliberately ask the Lord to do what David asked Him to do, then permitted Him to do, in the Psalms ( i.e.: 'search me', 'try me'....). This, also, is an ongoing process. We are also told in the Word, to 'present ourselves a Living Sacrifice' to the Lord. If we do this, presenting ourselves mind, body, soul and spirit, as a Sacrifice to the Lord, should He not also have the right and the permission to search, correct, root-out, adjust, heal and restore us? Since we are made in His Image, we always have our Free Will; and this has a way of clashing with His! The Psalms of David illustrate this ongoing, sometimes difficult, process very well, as does the book "Rees Howells Intercessor" ( 2 good ones to read and study. ) These weren't 'perfect people', and they knew they weren't. Neither are we. The Lord loved David's spirit: Why? Because David had an open, childlike way of talking to the Lord. He said what he thought, he said what he felt, good or bad, wrong or right. He also honored the Lord, and gave Him full access to ALL of David; maybe not all at once, and maybe not always without a fight, but he was convinced that the way to go was the Way of the Lord. If he sinned, he confessed and repented, and he went on, not perfect, but stronger and more beautiful than before. And when David danced before the Lord, nothing, but nothing, but nothing, stood between him and the Lord! He was worshipping 'In Spirit and in Truth'. David is our example.


Hello Jay,

My name is John Earp. I am 33 years old. I am a fifth-generation Pentecostal preacher. I am currently ordained with the CoG of Cleveland, TN. My heritage is primarily from the A/G and CoG, though, my great-grandparents were from the Pentecostal Holiness Church. One thing that is very interesting to me personally is that many of our direct ancestors were circuit-riding Methodist preachers in the 1800s, and literally traveled all over the SW U.S., preaching, distributing Bibles and literature as well as working "real jobs" when necessary. ;)

Though I was raised in a pastor's home, and did receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at age 16, I have only served the Lord steadily as a Christian for the past 10 years, during which time I have been praise & worship leader, Bible study leader, associate pastor, and pastored for two years, until I almost had a nervous breakdown, I was so burned out. Perhaps the biggest factor in my burn out was the fact that my wife of only a few months decided she didn't want to be married to a preacher after all, and divorced me after less than six months together.

My heart and life were mightily refreshed when I visited Brownsville A/G in October of 1996, and I have truly never been the same.

Because I do not wish to get back into pastoring again while still single, I have chosen to remain in ministry primarily working as a music minister as well as an associate pastor, which I have done for the past three years.

I currently live in Ypsilanti, MI, where I am an associate at Willow Run CoG. My primary responsibilities are oversight of our benevolence ministry, which involves supervision of a large warehouse in which we collect, store, and distribute food for the hungry, both in our local area and through our networks around the world. It is truly a rewarding ministry.

I also have been graciously asked to be responsible for our midweek Bible studies for the past several months, which gives me a great outlet for teaching ministry. Most of what I do know just involves giving out free food, though. I love it.

I have for the past several months been studying especially the writings of Charles Finney, noted revivalist of the 1800s. My greatest interest has always seemed to be Christian history, and specifically, Revival history, and so Wesley, Whitefield, Finney, and Moody are some of my most studied persons. Not to mention Pentecostal and charismatic history, which I find to be one of the most fascinating studies of all. Parham, Seymour, Lake, Wigglesworth, MacPherson, and the 50s Voice of Healing personalities are my most favorite to study. I also love very much Bonhoeffer, whose writings never cease to challenge me to radical discipleship.

Of all I would have to say that Finney is the most well-rounded, in the sense of presenting stunningly logical yet powerful sermons. His systematic approach to entire sanctification or perfection never ceases to bring conviction and encouragement to me that I can accomplish far more in Christ than my human mind can imagine. All things truly are possible to him that believeth!

Which leads me to the issue at hand; that of the "manifest sons of God" teaching. While I am not completely familiar with all the shades of meaning involves in this concept, I do have a question to ask those who hold to this teaching, or at least those who understand what is taught and expected to happen when this manifestation occurs.

I have heard some say that those who become the "manifest sons of God" will have such a transformation of their physical body while here on earth that they have what sounded to me like resurrection bodies (spiritual bodies; 1 Cor. 15:44) while yet here on earth. This seems to contradict, to me, the scripturally well-attested belief that "when He shall appear, we shall see him as he is," and "be changed in a moment...this corruption shall put on incorruption, and this mortality shall put on immortality."

I really don't know, as I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually teach this sort of thing personally, and I would really like to know what the real teaching on "manifest sons" really is. When God called me to preach at age 20, I saw visions which would lead me to believe that there certainly is coming a new breed of prophets, apostles, and evangelists, and they will literally traverse the globe as flaming ministers of fire. This is what the Lord showed me so many years ago. I regret to say that I fell away for a couple of years in my early 20s, primarily as a reaction to the divorce of my parents and the destruction of my dad's ministry at the time, but praise God, the Holy Spirit wouldn't let me go that easily.

As far as sinless perfection goes, I do believe sinless perfection to be attainable in this life, but I do not think of this as anything less than a dynamic, progressive walk in Christ and in the Spirit, "so that ye do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." I do not hold to (nor do any Wesleyans or Arminians I know of) the idea that once sinless perfection is achieved that it is something which a person cannot lose through willful disobedience.

I understand every day to present new situations in which we are to learn how to follow the way of Christ as delineated in the Sermon on the Mount especially. And so if a person were to go one day fulfilling this by walking in the Spirit, they would nevertheless face tomorrow, and the day after, and so on, with each day presenting new challenges and opportunities to show the love of Christ. And so I personally don't think that we will ever be a finished product this side of heaven, but at the same time I don't see the "sinning-all-the-time Christianity" as being scriptural either.

I also do believe emphatically in the five-fold ministry, though my denomination is not quite up to speed on this issue yet, especially the subject of modern-day apostles. I do believe we must be careful who we accept as a prophet or as an apostle, to be sure, but by the same token we must be careful about any minister we come across. As Christ said, "By their fruits you shall know them." (Matt. 7).

I hope to be both challenged and encouraged within this group. I promise my subsequent posts will be much shorter. ;) Thanks to all for bearing with my long epistle here.

God bless,

John Earp

It's been a while since I got to write. The military keeps me very busy. I have been reading and studying trying to understand what this is all about. About a year ago a prophet I met said to me that there are many children of God but very few Manifest Sons. This was the first time I had even thought there was a difference. Since then it has been on my mind. This discussion is helpful to me. Bless it. I see that characters like Ezekiel and others of similar callings were called Son of man, as was Jesus. I see that God has children as well as Sons. Just as there are followers of Christ AND there are disciples of Christ. In my experience, these are very different.

There is no special way that each comes to Christ as "we have all sinned and come short". However, in my Father's mind as it had been from the foundation of the world, the calling is different, as we see in Jeremiah. "Before ye were born, I knew you.." I believe in the calling and finally the choosing is where the difference lies. Paul refers to us all as saints and a person who lives the life of holiness is a saint (sanctified-separated), but not necessarily a manifest son. I read some of the doctrines in the suggested Web site and was very disappointed at the confusion of thinking. This leads to more questions than answers.

Justification and sanctification is not a hierarchy doctrine given to some, but given to all because Christ went to the cross for all not some. We are on dangerous ground when we slip into the "holier than thou" attitude. This is one of the biggest heresies separating the churches today among pride, doctrines and traditions of men. I will rejoice with great gladness when the Sons of God unite the Church into one. However, are the manifest Sons really called to unite and prepare the Bride? Heaven help us when we unite in such a way that we end up like Nimrod and the tower of Babel (against God). Unity is pleasing to God. But unity has to come under the leadership of Jesus Christ, not a "Ministry" or individual. We can be united in heart by solid doctrine, and yet be strong enough to attend a different worship building. Kind of like my wife and I are separated for months sometime because of military deployments, yet we are of the same mind and Spirit. We are separated yet together!! I see that many ministries are made of men especially the ones trying to "unite" everyone under their own selfish self!

Unity comes with laying down self and pride with sacrifice. I do not think that we are all ready to do that yet. The church hasn't been together since Cain and Able fought. What makes us think we can do it now? We can try, but one thing we must do is get real and return to "simplicity with power" instead of "extravagance with mammon". How pleased Dad would be if we got rid of the clergy/laity separation, for instance, and got off our high horse, and stop separation doctrines. We are all justified and sanctified. Some fake it just like they faked repentance, but the wheat must grow with the tares. Let the reapers (angels) handle that. Well, I believe I preached too long. God bless all. Thanks Jay for this discussion. More to follow later if the Spirit leads. Love in Jesus, Joseph

Jay, Being a new person on your site, I will keep my comments brief. When God calls us, He justifies us, or makes us just-as-if we had never sinned. See Rom. 8:30. We are then covered by the blood of Jesus, and are made right in the sight of God. Sanctification is the process of being made holy, and that is the work of a lifetime as we study God's Word and submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I don't believe we will be perfect in this lifetime except that we are covered by the perfection of Jesus. Of our own merits, we are a total failure. Praise to God for His perfect plan!! Joan McDaniels

I think you're right with one exception. God's answer to puritanical thinking was to send Jesus Christ. They had the temple and the beautiful stones. They had the wide phylacteries. They had the law and the oral law. They had the letter; they lost the spirit. Jesus hung out with the wretched refuse. He forgave the adultress, He ate with sinners, and tax collectors. He died as a common criminal. Others who came much later are not necessarily destroying puritanical extremism; when they're effective they're letting the light of Christ shine in that particular darkness.
Ed Stone


I really don't have much to add to the recent discussions, but I would like to share what GOD is currently doing in my life that relates.

HE has shown me that unless we are willing to sacrifice to become the BODY, we can never be the BRIDE. This week I finished getting everyone in our ministry plugged into other congregations, and I have submitted myself to another ministry that is operating according to the Five -Fold Pattern. The HOLY SPIRIT has shown that we must be willing to sacrifice our positions (physically & mentaly) if we are to become what he desires us to be.

Yours In Christ,

Dear Jay...
As I read the many comments made about the manifest sons of God, I am awed at the many gifts God has given to your contributors. To be honest with you, I never really knew there was a difference until you posed the question. Now I see it! "Sometimes the questions tell us more than the answers ever will".(a line from a song)
I just considered "all who are justified" to be on their way to sanctification...the process...but there is a definate difference. Thanks for showing me.

Nancy Flanagan
Wilm. Delaware

I enjoyed your latest e-mail and the responses quite a bit. Light is surely being thrown on a lot of points that are new to me and I am grateful for this. I believe that it is now time to define "the church" as you are referring to it, and to allow the Lord to lead on from there. One thing that puzzles me is that throughout this discourse many references are made to all kinds of denominations, and there is great emphasis on non-denominational or evangelical teachings. I take heed of all teachings and I find good in each, yet there are many "practices" in each that are highly questionable. I am not one to judge, because I know that I am still learning, but where are we going with this? The response from Mr. Edwin Stube, "A Spotless Bride" touches on the point I am getting at. Mr. Stube says, "The truth of God is so great that no individual or group of individuals can comprehend it all. Each denomination, church and group of believers has a portion of the truth."
I find this to be the case in many instances, but for some reason the scripture of Jesus saying, "Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst." Personally, I am thrilled at the prospects of this line of thinking. It blends in well with your thoughts on "Justification and Sanctification." Saints can be found everywhere, not just in the midst of a particular denomination. But I say this cautiously, because Proverbs tells us, "There is a way which seems right to a man which leads to the path of destruction." Many church leaders and evangelists with whom I have spoken express the concern that the framework of my thinking is wrong because God's way is in church service, community service, and being led by a particular man. I do not agree with them. I don't hesitate in pointing out the first line of Psalms 23, "The Lord is my Shepherd."
Please define more clearly, "the church" as you are referring to it. Thanks for the feeding, Jay.

Bill Caraway

I was raised Catholic with 12 yrs of Catholic schooling.
As an adult, I left the Catholic church and raised my children Episcopalian and Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel. I also spent 7 years as a Baptist; studied Eastern religions during my spiritual wanderings. For the past 8 yrs. I've attended foursquare gospel where I led a Bible study for two of those years.

There waa a church split over a wayward pastor and now I am presently content to study on my own and I guess you could say I am taking sabbatical from organized religion. I do miss group worship at times but after a lot of prayer I accept the fact that I am not led to make a change at this point.

It is somewhat frightening to me that I feel better by NOT attending church. And since scripture tells me not to neglect gathering together with believers - - I am anxious about it.


Nan and Steve

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