Justification and Sanctification

August 18, 2000

If we, the CHURCH, are not the "manifest sons" of God, who is? Good question. Karen has asked this and I have put it at the top and just below it is what I think is a perfect answer by Edwin and confirmed by Jachan below and of the submission that Linda speaks of. The things spoken there are true and there have been many sons of God led by the spirit throughout history but the revelation of the last day ministries that we speak is to prepare the Bride for the Bridegroom. This concerns the Second Coming. This is basically the question that I wanted to address this time and that is the issue of whether all Christians in the church are saints or not. I have already said that I do not believe that, while the promises of God are for everyone, many do not stand on the promises. I am not alone in this teaching either, many understand that this type of exclusivistic thinking is in error. A study of history will show that it was not even taught until the Puritans started thinking that they were the approved saints and looked down on anyone who did not measure up to their sanctimonious pretensions. The "all Christians are saints" doctrine is taught by many groups such as the Baptists, Presbyterians, Church of Christ and many others including some but not all of the Pentecostals and taken to the Calvinist extreme by the Mormons. Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know, it is not taught by the Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox and Holiness groups. I can remember people in some of the churches that I have frequented praising God with the testimony "saved, sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost."

God's answer to puritanical thinking was in sending John Wesley and Whitefield to ignite the Great Awakening and bring the evangelical movement into the realm of the power of the Holy Spirit. In their preaching, they knew quite well that many were saved but not sanctified and it brought forth revival fervor. Much of the thrust of their message was not only getting people saved but getting the saved sanctified. Wesley taught that sanctification is a process and Christian perfection was an ideal within the Christian's grasp. I really do not think that any one of us can be truly perfect as long as we are in the flesh, yet we are still admonished to be perfect like our Heavenly Father is perfect. Although we can do nothing to earn our salvation, entering into the realm of holy living, denying ourselves and allowing ourselves to be led by the Spirit is our responsibility from there. We may never truly reach that goal but it is only in making the attempt that we can approach it.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Sanctification is not a given for the redeemed, it is a process. Let us press on toward that mark and not think that we have attained it.

To be a saint is to be separate. In the broad sense of the word, we are all as Christians separated from the rest of the world as being redeemed. This is where the confusion lies in that we are all saints in the broad sense. This is not what we need to discuss here but rather, are we all saints in the straight and narrow sense of attaining the ideal that will distinguish the Bride of Christ from Babylon? "Get out of her, my people" is the command given to those in Babylonian confusion and captivity. If those in Babylon are referred to as being "my people" then we cannot deny that they belong to God, are Christians just like we, and are saved. The Body of Christ, being the Church, is made up of the saved and sanctified. The Bride of Christ is holy, without spot or wrinkle and totally sanctified. Much of the Church is fragmented with members living in sin, prideful and contentious, mammon worshipers, bound by false doctrine, filled with false teachers and pastors who deny truth and Holy Ghost power to the flock and teaching and thinking that they are saints. The Bride of Christ is separate from these things.

If we are to enter into the role that God has truly intended for the manifestation of the sons (and daughters) of God, then we are to be among those that prepare the Body to be a spotless and holy Bride. If we are to do that, we must be holy, sanctified vessels ourselves, led by the Spirit of God and teaching a holiness doctrine.

There are many more questions concerning this topic. What of the difference of the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom on earth to come? What of the saints being translated in a twinkling of an eye and those who sleep awaiting resurrection judgment? Will all eyes see Jesus when He comes, or will He come as a thief in the night? Does the rapture include the whole body of Christ or just the saints?

Thanks for those several of you that actually took the time to introduce yourselves. Many that contribute often do not need to but it is good to hear where you are from and know the background of those on the list. It takes courage to identify yourselves to a group like this. I think that I will just leave this as an open invitation for everyone on the list, especially for the new ones.

Also below is more about that enemy of restoration site that we mentioned last time and confirmation that they use their hatefulness through deceit to prove their misguided thinking. This raises the question of whether this kind of malice shows that they are truly not saved or just Christians led by a foul spirit. There are several heresy hunter cults like this that deny the power of the Holy Spirit. They probably think they are all saints.

Please get back to me on the issue of the difference between justification and sanctification.


Jay, this is of interest to me. If we, the CHURCH, are not the "manifest sons" of God, who is? I thought Jesus said we would have power from on high, do greater works than HE did (which I personally believe has to do with number, not magnitude of greatness) because the same SPIRIT that dwelled in JESUS (and raised HIM from the dead) dwells IN US! It amazes me that throughout history the people of God, whether it be the descendents of Abraham in body or soul, are always "looking for" a "future fulfillment" in the PROMISES of God, instead of seeing that we are NOW in the Spirit, NOW in the PRESENCE of GOD, HE inhabits the PRAISES of HIS PEOPLE, HE DWELLS IN US, HEAVEN IS WITHIN US, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN US. It's the very thing the disciples kept missing over and over while Jesus walked among them as well. Not that I don't believe there is a time when the devil will no longer have any kind of power even to tempt or lead us astray, or to harm us, that will be HEAVEN in ALL OF THE FULLNESS OF GOD come to earth.

It seems to me that the Lord Himself spent three years training people on the earth to just have faith the size of a mustard seed, just the tiniest bit will do, but they kept wondering when and how and what and all those things we don't need to know. As Francis Fragipane reminds us, the Lord gave us a task, just as He gave Noah a task, and it wasn't a day or an hour, "JUST DO IT", and if we BELIEVE we WILL SEE THE GLORY OF GOD!

Yes, He is restoring the Kingdom of God in this earth, and yes, WE are HIS CHILDREN! (If you want to say "manifest sons" then that is what you may call the CHURCH), but I would have to say that Peter, Paul, James, John, Luke and all those apostles were also the "manifest sons" of God. As have been all TRUE saints, like St. Francis and the desert fathers, all those true believers who lost their lives and followed so closely in the Lord's steps in all of history, but maybe at this particular time there is a special anointing or something where the whole church will come into the realization of WHO WE ARE (instead of only a very few of us) throughout ALL THE EARTH, and this is going to be some kind of awesome and incredible revival that will take place right before the very awfulest and darkest hour of persecution and slaughter we have yet known (on a worldwide level, instead of just a few of us). What do you think?

I can't say this for sure, just my thoughts on this subject. I think sometimes we get so caught up in these doctrinal things, terminology, stuff like that, we can sometimes lose sight of WHO we are and what WE ARE HERE TO DO, which is, to "preach the gospel to every creature, to all the ends of the earth, love our neighbor as ourselves, love God with everything in us at all times" and to put it simple BE REAL....in the midst of all the reprobate and the religious all around us, above all else, FIND WHAT IS REAL, TRUE, LASTING TREASURE, hold onto that and let everything else go, whether it be your things or your head, let it all go for the sake of the LORD in the end. LOVE NEVER FAILS. Karen

Here is another attempt at relating the manifest sons and the Bride:

A Spotless Bride

Before Jesus comes again, two momentous tasks must be completed:

  1. The Church will have to be perfected and united. When Christ comes, He must be able to "present the Church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish" (Ephesians 5:27). The maturing of the Church is the goal of the ministry of apostles and prophets and the other ascension gifts of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-16). Before Jesus comes, the Church will have to be perfected and united
  2. The kingdoms of this world must become the Kingdom of God and of His Christ. This means that we are involved in world conquest according to the purposes of God. This conquest will not involve fighting each other, but will be a spiritual warfare involving deep intercession and manifestation of the power and glory of the Lord.

Actually, the perfecting and uniting of the Church is a prerequisite for the winning of the nations for the Kingdom of God. The Church must be renewed so that it can manifest the purposes and the glory of God. The world has no other witness than that of the Church to the power and love of God. This witness requires our total obedience to the scriptural pattern for the Church and to the minute-by-minute guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Sons of God
All of creation groans in travail awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God (Romans 8:18). The sons of God are people who have attained to the likeness of Christ. They can be men or women just as the bride of Christ is made up of both. 1 John 3 explains that we are fortunate to be born as children of God. But John goes on to say that when we see Jesus as He is, we will be like Him. The children of God grow into sons of God as they continue to look at Him.

2 Corinthians 3 presents us with a miraculous mirror. When we look into an ordinary mirror, we each see our own likeness. The mirror adjusts to each observer. The mirror of 2 Corinthians 3 is more amazing yet. When we look into this mirror, we see, not ourselves, but Jesus. It is our face that changes; we are transformed to be like Him. We will then be unleashed on the world as a many-personed company of the sons of God.

This is the time of the manifestation of the sons of God. The world is waiting in travail for us. Unbelievers live broken, tormented lives. They seek reality in drugs, occult practices, and strange religions. They destroy each other on the streets of our cities and they destroy their countries with religious and tribal wars. The world around us and around the globe cannot fully know the glory of God until the sons of God are revealed.

Jesus' prayer for His little group of disciples at the last supper, which also included prayer for us, was that they and we would manifest His glory. It is impossible that this prayer of Jesus not be fulfilled. When the sons of God are revealed, many around the world will suddenly realize what they have been seeking, and their longings will be fulfilled in the reality of the glory of God.

The Glory Revealed
Jesus revealed His glory in the world through the miracles He did. It is said of His first miracle of providing wine at a wedding in Cana that his glory was revealed and His disciples believed in Him. Day by day, His authority and His glory were manifested in miraculous feeding of crowds, stilling of storms, healing the sick, casting out demons, confusing the Pharisees, and raising the dead. He trained His first disciples to continue these manifestations of His glory, and He left instructions for us to do likewise.

Churches have lately been somewhat lazy about following these instructions; but those who have received the fullness of the Holy Spirit are in travail (i.e., intense intercession) for the manifestation of the glory of God through the sons of God.

Jesus was most fully glorified in His death and resurrection. He is also glorified when we make our lives a sacrifice for Him and for others.

Prophetic Intercession
Miracles have to be spoken into existence by saying words God gives us to say. Jesus used words of command to still storms, cast out demons, heal sickness, raise dead people, and wither a fig tree. He spoke authoritative words of instruction to His disciples to feed multitudes, and to servants to provide wine for the wedding feast in Cana. When Jesus sent out His disciples on ministry training journeys, He told them to cast out demons and heal the sick. When they came back, they reported, "Wow! Even the demons are subject to us in Your Name!" They had commanded the works of God's hand and seen the result.

Christians often tend to understand intercession as petitioning God to do something. They plead for healing of bodies and minds, for conversions, for world peace, and a multitude of other requests that seem right to them. Petitioning is aimed from earth to heaven; commanding operates from heaven to earth. We command what God commands; we speak things into being in Jesus' Name.

The catch to this is that we have to know exactly what God commands in any given situation. This should not be too difficult since Jesus promised that His sheep would hear His voice. But, of course, we have to cultivate a close relationship with our Shepherd and be constantly listening for His voice.

Just as Ezekiel was instructed to prophesy to a bunch of dead bones, turning them into a powerful army, so we can prophesy to our churches, our communities, and even to nations to bring them into line with God's purposes.

Becoming Manifest Sons
The conditions for the sons of God to be manifested are hearing and obeying. This will involve laying aside our own natural wisdom, ability, and experience (except, of course, our experience of God's presence) and inviting His presence to flood our fellowship, our church, our community, and nations.

This manifestation will occur first in fellowships or churches that are earnestly seeking God's presence, making this a first priority, spending time and effort together in deep prayer.

The manifest presence of God is exportable. When people go out from fellowships in which the glory of God has been manifested, their very presence on the streets, in public places, and wherever the Spirit of God leads them will be contagious; many will be drawn to them to receive a share of that glory. Members of such fellowships will be able to enter other gatherings of Christians and convey the presence of God to them. Just by praying in such places, they will cause a remarkable transformation. Soon this will become universal.

We know that the church has to be in unity. At His last supper with His disciples, Jesus prayed that we would all be one as He and His Father are one. This prayer has to be fulfilled before Jesus comes again. If the members of the body are scattered, here an arm, there a foot, there an ear, where will the Head be placed at His coming? In terms of the worldwide mission of the church, unity is an absolute necessity. Our divisions give witness to a debatable gospel and to a people who cannot agree on anything.

The churches have appointed endless commissions and held numerous councils to explore areas of common ground and to bring organizational unity to the church, but these have not really kept up with the proliferation of new denominations.

The truth of God is so great that no individual or group of individuals can comprehend it all. Each denomination, church, and group of believers has a portion of the truth. Unfortunately, each tends to think it has the whole truth and that the others are wrong. Therefore, they lack mutual trust and have trouble sharing their insights and learning from each other.

We are certainly not promoting organizational unity or a new inclusive denomination, nor are we talking about uniformity in worship or culture or structures for ministry and outreach. Our aim is, rather, submission to the Holy Spirit, working in harmony under the Lord's direction. (The hand and the mouth, though very different in form and function, work together to enable us to eat, not because they have formulated principles for cooperation, but because both are obedient to the head). Their obedience is total and instantaneous.

If all members of the worldwide body of Christ practiced this kind of obedience to the Head, unity would be inevitable and without discussion or argument.

Whenever Paul speaks of the unity of the Body of Christ, he almost invariably goes on to talk about the diversity of gifts and functions of the members. In Ephesians 4, he begins in verse 4 to stress the unity of the body, but in verse 7, he states that "grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift." In verse 11, he begins to enumerate ministries in the body, speaking of them as gifts: "His gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building up the body of Christ,"

All members of the body have different gifts and functions. The purpose of the leadership is to promote the development of the ministries of all the members. As all perform their proper functions, the body will come to perfect unity.

Every church has a unique call from the Lord. They need to discern clearly what God's purpose for them is and how they are to pursue it.

The Bride of Christ
The ultimate destiny of the church is to become the Bride of Christ. This speaks of a level of maturity beyond our present knowledge and experience.

We all like babies; but no one really wants them to stay babies. Surely no man wants to marry a baby. Jesus is no exception. He is coming back for a mature Brideā€"one who is on His level in holiness and obedience to the Father, one who shares His vision, His purposes, and His work, one who loves as He loves, and is prepared to spend eternity with Him.

The Song of Songs gives us an analogy of the process by which the bride is prepared. The lover comes leaping over mountains and invites the beloved to join him. Initially, she is not ready to respond and sulks in her room.

The invitation is repeated in different ways. Gradually, through his wooing and her bitter lessons, she learns to respond instantly. Eventually they can go forth hand in hand to look at their fields. They have learned to respond to each other, to think and act as one person. In Ephesians 5, the relationship of husband and wife is seen as a picture of the relationship of Christ to the church. He cleanses the church of all impurities, nourishes her by being the Word, and He gives His life for her. The church, in turn, submits totally to Him, allowing Him to do His perfect work in her life. In Revelation 19, we read about the culmination of this process when the whole host of heaven rejoices:

"Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen,
bright and pure, for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Faced with the scriptural pattern suggested above, we can either pass it off as impractical or outdated, or we can take it seriously. If we decide to do the latter, we can well begin by meditating on the above propositions and comparing them with the present state of the churches we know. We can repent where necessary on behalf of ourselves and our churches for any shortcomings we may notice. We can then ask the Lord to do whatever is necessary to make us mature sons of God who can manifest His glory in our lives and ministry. He who is the Word will also speak into the life of His church to prepare her as His spotless Bride.

Edwin Stube

Dear Jay,

The following quote was taken from the site sent by Revdeb
[Unidentified site]

"They mostly deny a rapture in the classic sense. Some replace it with individual raptures, a collective transformation to immortality on earth, or none at all. This quote is representative of the teaching "the doctrine of the Rapture was a great and effective ruse of the enemy to implant in the Church a retreat mentality ... already this yoke has been cast off by the majority in the advancing church, and it will soon be cast off by all." (Rick Joyner, THE HARVEST )"

I must illustrate how far this going. This is what Rick Joyner really wrote in the Harvest copyright 1993 Rick Joyner, Morningstar Ministries:

"This is not the time to run-it is time for the church to draw her spiritual sword and attack the strategies and strongholds of the enemy. The doctrine of the pre-tribulation [italics mine] rapture has been effective in developing a retreat mentality in the church, but it will not ultimately succeed. Already the majority in the advancing church is casting off this yoke. As the Lord exhorted through Isaiah:"

"Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. For behold darkness will cover the earth, and deep darkness the peoples; But the Lord will rise upon you and His glory will appear upon you (Isaiah 60:1-2)."

By leaving out "pre-tribulation" in their quote and capitalizing "Rapture," they totally misrepresented what Mr Joyner has said. At best this is mean spirited. I will not go where it is at it's worst, but as a former journalist if I blow the dust off of my Associated Press Liable and Slander Manual , I'm pretty sure I will find what they've done is illegal in this country. This is the strong hold of the enemy that Mr Joyner is talking about. please circulate this.

They probably copied that quotation directly from the apologetics index site w/o checking it out...as that quotation appears in the font from the apologetics site. I get upset about this stuff easily then right off the bat I'm tempted to try to have satan cast out satan, and appeal to eating at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( my first reaction was to write Joyner a letter to urge him to sue them) rather than the tree of life, if we all wrote those folks love letter from the Christ inside us to those people who are propagating and passing on lies we might get something done for the Kingdom.

Sincerely in our precious Savior and soon coming King, Christ Jesus,

James Kelly


ADDENDUM December 15, 2000

The administrator of the [Unidentified site] contacted me reminding us of "joyner and your misquote" meaning us. Apparently MR. Joyner had written what had correctly been quoted on our discussion in 1993 but had written what was correctly quoted on this other site from an earlier edition of 1989/1990.

I have not studied under Rick Joyner but what I see from his site is that he preaches love and humility in the same way that I do. He also teaches that there is a civil war going on in the church and I also teach that there is a false religious system called Babylon with the anti-prophetic Jezebel spirit in the last days that will war against the remnant that is to restore the temple made without hands.

Praise God for Rick Joyner if he has the humility and the presence of mind to go back and correct any mistakes made. God is not through with us yet either and we should always hope to improve ourselves and not ever have the attitude that we have it all together. There is a distinct difference in restoration Christians and these heresy hunter cults in the guise of apologetics. The God of love will lead His true followers to love, forbear, forgive and teach restoration truths. The accuser of the brethren will lead his people to judge, condemn, dredge up the past and find fault in specific individuals that do not agree with their own private interpretations. Many of them are well meaning and searching for the truth but misled into taking up arms against flesh and blood instead of in the heavenlies. David was not allowed to build the temple because of a bloody sword but we are under grace, through repentance and forgiveness, these people can be restored.

As to the rapture, I will continue to teach that it is not an issue that should divide us so I will continue to get hate mail from both sides of the issue from those that are not part of this restoration.



I apologize for continuing with this manifest sons topic, but I was out of town last week with no computer access. I just received these messages this week, and I would like to add a little something to the discussion. I believe the manifest sons represent the perfected Bride/Body of Christ. The manifestation speaks of the glory of God being revealed in all that will be called His son. The manifestation does not come at one time, but is dependent on individuals. All have received power to become sons of God (Jn 1:12), but it is not until we are led by His Spirit (Rm 8:14) and share in the fellowship of His suffering (Rm 8:16-17) that we will attain full sonship. While the fivefold ministry is integral to the revealing of the truths necessary for the manifestation to come to pass, we are not that manifestation. We have been manifested as sons, as an example to the Body, so that all may come to that glorified state.

"For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. And not only they, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." (Rm 8:22-23) I believe that the "we" in this scripture refers to the five fold ministers. We have received the first fruits of the Spirit, and thus we can stand as representatives of the headship of Christ in the Body. We still wait therefore for the fullness of time where in the Body is perfected; "the redemption of our body." This is what is spoken of as the manifestation of the sons of God.

In regard to who I am, my name is Jachan Watkis. I live in Hempstead, NY (on Long Island), and attend the Church of God of Prophecy. Although my Church does not fully accept the existence of the fivefold ministries, I am still led to remain with the fellowship. I know that God is working, and is bringing us into His present truth. I truly enjoy being a member of this list and look forward to seeing it achieve its ends of being a means by which unity of the faith is brought to the body of Christ. The vision for my life being of a similar nature, I now look to embark on the task of setting up a network of the various Churches (breaking through denominational and doctrinal walls) in Hempstead. This being down with the sole purpose of conquering this land thru effective ministry and demonstration of God's love. I would make a prayer request at this point in regard to this work. Grace and peace to you all.

Jachan Watkis

Re: manifest sons

Dear Jay and List,
There are similarities and differences in my understanding concerning this "faith-expectation" which lives in my heart. Several years ago, I asked the Lord what was His Purpose in creating man? His answer led me through years of reading the early church writings, searching for what I did not know.. but I knew that I would "recognize" it when I found it. I found it in the Eastern Orthodox teachings concerning "theosis".. or Union with God. As I poured over the writings of the eastern church fathers, my heart was stirred with excitement, as their Love and Adoration for the Trinity began to flow into my spirit. My faith was expanded, as I began to understand the Father's Heart which so longs for this Union. I began to grasp the wonder of the Eastern Church's mystical theology.. a theology which provides room and respect for the Holy Spirit's ministry in the Church... a theology which expects believers to press on in experiential understanding of God's Desire for Union with us!

As the Lord began to teach me of "theosis", I began to understand this was what those early pioneers in Sasketchewan had been trying to express. So many of the western church rejected these teachers as if they were teaching some strange new heretical doctrine.. but it was no new doctrine! The entire Eastern Church has retained this belief, for the manifestation of the sons of God (theosis)... in Union with God. It is no heretical doctrine to the Eastern Church, for the earliest fathers taught, "God became man, that man might become God" (Not by nature, but by God's Graces being imparted to man). As I continued to study and search out the foundations of this doctrine, the Lord continued to teach me through the Scriptures of His Desire for glorification... for our glorification in Him, and His glorification in us. We all believe for these foundational Christian beliefs, but we think it will be in the "bye and bye". I believe it is now. I believe the manifest sons of God will be those blessed ones who take part in the First Resurrection. I believe that every believer who has pressed on into Union with Christ, will be part of that first-fruits Resurrection.

As part of the confirmation work in my heart, Our Lord brought me into contact with two brothers of ours who experienced "theosis" personally. One was brought to my home, for me to be his 'midwife-faith/coach' for a year, as he came through extreme 'confusion' (Babylon) where it seemed all the forces of darkness that were allowed to buffet his physical/emotional/spiritual body at will. God allowing it for the destruction of anything that could be destroyed in this way. His faith held firm and he is another who awaits the rising of the Morning Star within him. This man lived in union with God 30 years ago for over three weeks. His 'normal' life was ruined, and he has lived the rest of his life, awaiting the completion of that 'taste' he was allowed. The second brother from the extreme opposite side of our nation, experienced this fully-enveloped state of union for less than a week. His life also has been lived now, faithfully awaiting the fulfillment of his 'taste'. I believe the Lord brought these two witnesses to confirm what He had been asking me to research in the dusty old records of Church History.

These ones will be manifesting Jesus in the earth. They will not be part of the 5-fold ministry as such (IMHO), although they will manifest all the giftings and callings of the 5-fold ministry, having become the Living Tabernacle of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself... Yet, He who has the Spirit without measure shall also fully inhabit these first-fruits of the Resurrection, children of the Resurrection... the ones who truly did lose their life here, that they might gain His Life. They shall be the SHKN of the Lord, the Tabernacle of His Glory.

As far as working for the "withness" or Koinonia of the Spirit, in the elect, I believe we are the little rock in Daniel's prophecy.. the one untouched by any man's hand. We come into One accord, as we each one, press on into union with Christ, being "beheaded" as such, as we bring all our carnal mind and thoughts into submission to the Spirit of God within us. As we submit to Christ Jesus, coming into Union with Him in Love, we find we are in union with all those who also have pressed on into this Divine Union with Christ. The Unity is already there... we just discover it.

We are being drawn into fellowship with all those others who also are being drawn into the Love of God....as we begin to relate to one another as "people" rather than the denominations which have kept us divided, we find we really have the One MOST IMPORTANT belief in common. We have put our Faith and Trust and Love in Christ Jesus, our Lord! With this in common, all the other issues become very insignificant... and the Body rises up in Union, in response to the Call of God's Love... rising up from the boxes which have divided us. I believe there was a treasure in each of the boxes though, and those from within each box, who have the ears to hear the Call to Love, rise up bringing the treasure preserved in their box, bringing all the gifts to lay at the feet of our Beloved Lord. We are the treasure. :)

Just a few of my ponderings on the subject. The Lord continues to speak to me in vision and prophetic teaching concerning these thing. I do not have the whole light, but one little part that I pray is complementary to what others are hearing/seeing/understanding in the Spirit.

Your sister, Linda the Beguine

Jay; My name is Roy Muise and I live in yarmouth, Nova Scotia Canada. I was brought up as a Roman Catholic and went to church until I was approximately 14 years of age. I had never heard the gospel preached until I was 35 years of age at which time I received the Lord as my Savior. I then returned to the Catholic Church but after about three months I saw that their preaching was not Bible based but man made doctrines. I then left the RC church and began attending a non denominational church. After about 10 years I left that church and went to Pentecostal as well as Church of God. About five years ago I went back to the original non denominational church and attended there for a further 4 years. About 2 years ago the pastor began teaching that all blessings etc., had to come through him and after hearing this for eight months I decided to leave. I have not been to a "organized" church since December 1999 and I truly feel the Lord led me out of the church. I am currently not attending anywhere and am praying for the leading of the Lord as to direction.I am enjoying receiving the discussions, etc from the group. In Christ, Roy Muise

Hi Jay, Whats up?. My name is Steve Momcilovich(I think you already know my first name). I live in Bear, Delaware. I am 16. I was raised in a charismatic background. I didn't truly accept Jesus Christ until I was 10 or 11.

Jesus is awesome.
This group will go wherever God wants it to go. I see myself in a band in the future, cause thats where I know God is sending me. We formed the band already, but we need money for equipment.
Please pray for us as we embark on this journey.

In Christ,

Hi Jay,
My name is Anita and I come from Catholic background and as a child of seven years old I accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior in a Pentecostal church that my grandmother attended. At that time no one else in my family attended church. I live in Columbus, Ohio and at present I lead Praise and Worship and pray with an intecessory prayer group. We are believing for Revival in Ohio and in our city. I recently attended a conference in Toronto, Canada on WE THE BRIDE. Mike Bickle and Marc Dupont and the Arnott's were the speakers. I truly believe that I am a manifest son of God and that I am a Bride of Christ. I know that the presence of the Lord and His great love for me lead me on to the light. I am praying and ask for prayer for my family relationships. I know that the Lord is working on me in this area. What better place to start than that! Thank you for your insight and for having this page on the net.

As to that Personal Paragraph....
I touched on some of my church background in my last post, and the short-paragraph limit wouldn't work real well for me to go into more detail - it just wouldn't fit; so I will just briefly mention a few goals, subjects I would like to discuss, some suggestions:
Goals: ( Apostolic/Prophetic ) the Restoration of the Church Behind the Walls ( Prisons ), and its establishment according to the Biblical plan proper Foundation and operation of the Five-fold Ministry, the equipping of the Body, Purification of the Worship and Praise, Prayer, etc. ) , the total Restoration and Establishment of the Individual, and in the Integration with the Restored Church outside the Walls. I am also concerned with the Establishment, Correction, and Operation of the Church ( the Church in general ), and the Revelation of the Person of Our Lord Jesus Christ ( and specifically, His Beauty. ) I also would like to have a number of books published, pertaining to these subjects, and would also like to publish my Christian Poetry, and other types of Poetry as well. I am also specifically interested in Inner Healing, the Expressive, Creative Arts as Ministry and Therapy ( especially Poetry Therapy ), and Victim/Offender Mediation ( and tons of other things.....darn this short paragraph stuff.....) Discussion Topics: The deep work of the Cross and the Blood in an individual life, in the intentional, voluntary, by-invitation sense. Spiritual Perception, Spiritual Discernment, and the Nature of Delusion A Suggestion: Jay, I thought it might be interested to create personal pages ( or whatever you might call it ) for a way for each of us to describe ourselves, our callings/giftings, our goals, etc. in detail. ( I like the idea of an "action group" too, but think we need to find out more about us first. )

( Deborah Cancel ( pronounced "Kahn- SELL" ) , Honey Brook, PA )

Blessings on you in the mighty name of Jesus. I just wanted to let you know a little about myself to let you know who's out here. Also to let you know that your website is appreciated and building up the Body in preparation for Him. I am 38 years old. I was born on the Island of Malta in the mediterranean. This is where Paul was shipwrecked in ACTS 28. We came to the States in 1975 and I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area (north of). In 1983 I joined the military and I move around quite a bit. I had grown up catholic, but never really followed anything. When I came to the Lord in 1992, I had not been to a Church in 12 years. It was in the Church of God (And., IN) that I had come to the Lord. I have since broke off because their non-belief of the five-fold and baptism of the Holy Ghost, since I had been baptized by the Spirit. Now they avoid me. The Lord got a hold of me and I began teaching and preaching. He matured me very fast. I became "licensed" and "ordained" and Pastored. I left for Germany in 1996 (this was my Arabia), and now have returned to the States. I am now serving in a COGIC until the Lord calls me out to my (the Lord's) ministry. I feel a tug and calling toward the apostolic and am fervently studying and preparing myself for that time. I started my search a year ago. Your website is a lot of help to me. I thank you. God bless you. love in Jesus, Joseph (comments welcome).

Dear Jay,
My name is Bill Caraway and I am from Washington, DC, USA. My mother and father were each of different denominations, but each delighted in the opportunity to profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and the true Son of the Living God. My mother raised 8 children and my oldest brother is a fire and brimstone minister. He was on fire for the Lord very early in my life and he exposed me to many different "religious" organizations during my youth. Needless to say, I was exposed to the business side of it all and was completely turned off. One day, after a life-changing, traumatic realization took place in my life, I had no where to turn. I picked up the bible and began to read Matthew. Once I got past the genealogies, my soul felt like it was being fed and I began to realize what I had never known - the love of Jesus. I seek to live by the Spirit now. I truly believe that you, Jay, are on the right track with your espousing of the Manifest Sons. I also believe that walking by faith is walking by the Spirit, and it is through the realization of this that the gifts of the Holy One are manifesting today. Continue the feeding, Jay. May all of our Spirits grow into oneness if it be God's will.

My name is Eric Olson, and I am from Baltimore, Maryland, although I am currently a student at Princeton University in New Jersey. I was raised nominally Lutheran but not Christian until the Lord spoke to me at a church retreat in 1995. I spent the next couple years looking for spiritual direction in the Lutheran church. In recent years I have found myself identifying more with Evangelicals. In the last year I have been led by the spirit into the "local churches" founded by Watchman Nee. I see this group as a way to help bridge the divisions created in the Church by politics and theology. In particular, I believe that it is essential that Christians from different churches and backgrounds worship together and praise the Lord with one voice. As for my own future I am still waiting for direction. Mostly I am trying to find a way to shape my life so as to give the firstfruits of my efforts to God and to others, rather than to the world.

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