Finish Babylon

April 11, 2000

This discussion is about over and it has not been the type of fun that we have had in the past. In fact it is more like hard work but certainly necessary. We must come to the point where we can understand Babylon enough to be able to get out of her. I could write up something now but there are just a few more questions that I would like to ask before we lay this one to rest.

We have discussed whether Babylon is represented as the old Roman Empire and the Roman Church as Mother of modern day Babylon with the present situation as the daughter. Secondly, we have most recently discussed whether Babylon is best represented in the materialism and world imperialistic nature that the U.S. has taken on in this generation. There is no question that Babylon rides upon the four heads of the beast and the America is one of the heads. There is also no doubt that America has once held the golden cup of the Lord in her hand so is a mixture of weak and strong. We are to discuss in dialectic which would rule out America as Babylon if we understand that if Babylon rides upon the beast that has four heads, then that would mean that America is only a part of the sins of Babylon and not all of it, even if she is positioned as the notable horn. We may want to discuss the idea of America as one of the heads of the beast at another time but for now, we are identifying the sins of Babylon and we must confine the discussion to this.

If Babylon the great is not a particular place today then it would be best represented by the system that it has manifested itself with, the materialism, greed, mammon worship, capitalism, avarice and the luke-warm church, the delusion that God has sent the church for believing a lie, the illiberality that is inherent in the right-wing extremism that has led the world to oppress and exploit the weak for profit and the economic One World Order that the four heads of the beast have put together. The watchword here is capitalism, the God of the world that has replaced the true Jesus with a false apostate Je$u$. This is the system that is funding the death squads in the third world and arming the nations for the final conflict, the system that forbids to buy and sell on the open market unless the system is worshiped. It is also a view that will make enemies of those that disagree with their policies or threaten their economic interests. That would mean that for those that worship capitalism as being the way of God is the delusion that God has sent the church for believing a lie. Of course it is not a popular position for us to take, since most Christians are part of the luke-warm materialism that supports the idea of capitalism as being of a divine nature, but I am now asking you what you think.

As to a consensus, we have come this far but I would like to submit these words for you to judge in the spirit and help us with a conclusion. Obviously this is a very important issue, one that will involve everyone on this planet one way or another. We are in fact living in the last days and I do not believe that the prophecies concerning Babylon in Daniel, Revelation, Jeremiah and Isaiah concern the church through history by looking to the past for fulfillments but that they refer to our generation, and we can identify her, or at least her nature.

So one last time, get back to me on this.


The city and the Whore do not have to be the same. The Harlot Church could certainly be Rome with its mixture with Babylonian mystery religion. London (later New York) has made many rich, has engaged in slave trade and in pharmakeia (interpreted as sorceries in the KJV and the word we get our word "pharmacy" from.

The Freemasons are also engaged in Babylonian mystery religion, have dominated the British East India Company (London) and could be those referenced in Revelation as the ones wjo say they are Jews and do lie Rev 3:9 "9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." The period of their rising strength was in 1720 when they were consolidated (Knights Templar and Rosicrucians in England), which is in the same time frame as the missionary Church of Philadelphia.

Just some thoughts on your note.

In Christ,

Bill Carrigan

Greetings Jay and to the group;

I would like to offer a "challenge" to this group. Does anyone "know" what went on upon those 7 hills of Rome during the time of the Roman Empire? I think the group will find that very interesting. Since that is where Babylon (the Mother Harlot) sat during the time of the early church, I think that it is likely that her "daughter" ( the U.S.) is involved in the same "abominations".

Kind Regards IN Christ, Ginny

Greetings Jay!

Concerning the "leopard" which you mentioned in your previous post, that was another thing that I came across in my study a few years ago. I thought you also might find it interesting.

Where "Pergamon" sat at one time (in the past) , is now in Turkey (an Islamic country as you know). I make this point because Islam (which is the fastest growing religion today) believes and predicts the coming of their "Imam" (religious leader) in the future which will bring the "whole world" under Islam. While studying this I came across an interesting "picture" - a man ( an "Imam" in the past) dressed in a leopard skin. In the past history of Islam it was the "dress" of their "Imam" for this particular religious leader. Something to think about.

Another thing I think you might find interesting is also the fact that Revelation mentions that God's people who refuse the mark of the Beast and his authority over them are "beheaded" under that (future) beast power. The Islamic nations are the only nations who still use this as a means for the death penalty.

Jay, I have come to perceive clearly that any "information" that God gives is a "clue" to us. God is not like us - while men seem to ramble on and on about something, and a lot of that either nonsense or speculation - God only mentions the things that apply to a given situation. Therefore, the fact that God's people are punished "by" this particular means would be important in gathering information on the "beast" for the future. Something I thought you might like to know.

Kind Regards, Ginny

Hi Jay,

Just a few comments on the Babylon update.

>The beast/heads of > Daniel 7 are easy to > recognize just by looking at who they could be in > the current world > political situation:

do you not think that the four beasts is the same as the four empires in the statue in the vision.....babylon the lion with eagle's wings (the symbol of babylon found on the ishtar gate), the bear Media and Persia, raised up on one side signifying that Persia was dominant? the three ribs signifying the three main kings of conquered which were cyrus ,artaxeres and ahasuerus. following that empire was Greece, signified by a leopard to show the swift nature of it's expansion under Alexander. the four wings and heads signifying the four divisions that the Greek empire fell into after Alexanders death....under the Ptolemies (Egypt), the Seleucids (Syria) Lysimichus and Cassander? the last being Rome, from whom the antichrist is said to come.

> for them to see Babylon as being the Roman Empire. > Again, during the > Reformation period, the most logical culprit to the > Protestants, who > would have naturally thought of restoration, would > of been > ecclesiastical Rome. But we are not in the first or > the sixteenth > century and cannot look at what these people thought > during these times > as conclusive.

interestingly enough the early church fathers believed that the antichrist would rise from the Roman empire after the emperor is removed and that he would take the emperors vacant seat and persecute the saints. so they prayed for the continuance of the roman empire so that the beast would not be manifested. so they had the same view as the Reformers, the difference being that they were viewing prophecy looking forward whereas the Reformers were doing it looking at the current situation (which has not yet ended).

> We may want to look at Rome with the evils of the > Nicolaitan system of > separation of clergy and laity that the Protestants > have continued with > to this present day as being part of Babylon. This > is the correlation > between the Roman idea of church hierarchy as being > continued with the > Protestants with fleshly Christian leadership > instead of servants and > ministers in the church. It cannot be Rome unless > the rest of the church > takes part in the guilt of what Papal Rome has > originally stood for and > that is a system of exalting church leaders over > others and diluting the > authority of Christ.

yeah i agree. but whatever religious spirit we see in protestantism, the ultimate manifestation has been in Rome. for example the clergy/laity distinction. the pope has gone further than even the most arrogant Baptist know all pastor and has claimed the place of God and Christ on earth, or infallibility. in terms of sectarianism they have taught that outside of their church there is no salvation. in terms of resisting the truth they have forbidden the bible and murdered people who were caught with it. in terms of idolatry they have venerated icons.

but this spirit is in protestantism too, and there are a lot of Catholics who have less of this spirit than a lot of Baptists. there are also a lot of hardened sacrementalist Catholics out there who hate evangelicals and what we stand for.

We may want to look at the church of Pergamos > which dwells where > satan's seat is, they are said to hold the doctrine > of the Nicolaitans. > This is the church of Rome, what relation does > Pergamos have with > Babylon, if any? it is interesting that the altar of pergamos is now in Berlin in Germany. it was taken there at the beginning of the 20th century.

> that He comes quickly. Also when Peter writes about > those at Babylon, > was he writing from Rome? well personally i think he was writing from chaldea but i could be wrong. i do believe that peter went to rome.

If they > are mountains and not hills, then what of the seven > continents, well hills and mountains is the same word in greek. there is no permanent settlements in antartica.

> She may be a religious power, but a military and > economic one? Not in my mind but I am listening and > looking for more > answers from you.

Yeah I agree with you. I don't know. I would probably look at the EU and WTO as well. But there was this interesting book written called the vatican billions. it seems to suggest that the world banking sysem is actually controlled by the vatican. i don't know.

>Babylon as a city - some have spoken of New York >as the city with the stock market, the United Nations >and the World >Trade center. The issue of Babylon being a mother and then being the >daughter of Babylon. The harlot city in isaiah is apostate judah.

well i hope my in coherent ramblings may be of a little help in stimulating some discussion! you never did tell me what you though of my stuff on the millenium. take care Jay!


hi jay and group,On the subject of Babylon i feel that we need to look at it as thru the eyes of the spirit.To me the kingdom of Babylon is to satan as Heaven is to God.God and us have our holy city and the devil has his unholy city.All the things i have read from this group makes great sense.But,we as people seem to look at things caused by a problem instead of seeing it at it's root.For we as a people are a Holy nation and the devil's folk are the unholy nation.As we know there is only one way to become apart of the Holy nation,but there are many paths to the great whore nation of the devil.The devil makes it to appear that he has a land,he doesn't,he makes it to appear that he has his own great power,he doesn't,all things that where made where made by God,amen.It was made by him and he has never lost ownership.The only thing that the devil has is the thing he gave birth to,the lie.The devil is tiring to get people to look at anything but him.If our attention is drawn to things of this world that we might point fingers at,then the great whore is allowed to work in the darkness.Since we are looking at everything else we miss the point.We as a people are not enemies-we as nations are not enemies.A body warring against itself shall not stand,but when we that same body shall stand together as one against our common foe then the foe will fall.The great whore Babylon will fall again when we as God's people unite together as one.Since there are only two kingdoms then there are only two masters.Our choice is which one will we choose.It seems to me we are too busy looking to point fingers at things that could represent the devil and not enough time exposing him for what he is=defeated=Babylon is and has been since the fall of satan and will be until that final battle when our master comes wearing that vesture which says"KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS".We as a people are always looking for signs of His coming just as the shepherds were looking for Him to return that hour.Any blink of your eye could trigger His return so we need to latch on our holy shoes and go out into Babylon,the world of sin,and bring salvation to those who as of yet have not received the promise of the gift given to us all.The devil is Babylon let us bind together and tear down his unholy nation and in it's place raise up the banner of our master,God-by His spirit-thru Jesus.Thanks for allowing me to speak my views,your brother in Christ,James s.

Hi Jay,

I do believe that spirit of Babylon or religious Babylon (as someone stated) can be identified, but I was referring to Babylon as a literal city not being fully revealed at this point. It is true, I cannot swallow the "USA is Babylon theory", but not because of my love for this country! Because of too many things that do not line up with the Book of Revelation. I have already discussed some of the inconsistencies. As far as the following that you wrote, I don't deny that these things have happened and are happening: To our grief, one would have to say these things are, for the most part, true. (Taking into consideration human error in interpreting what actually did or is happening.)

"...the right-wing insanity that the U.S. is now guilty of has blinded Americans to the fact of what is really happening. America has funded death squads against people's movements, has protected it's economic interests through embargoes and forbidding to buy and sell in the open market, has armed any totalitarian regime where an economic advantage can be gained and is guilty of opposing anyone in the third world who stands for economic democracy, the social gospel, nationalization of natural resources, land reform or the poor in general."

This is still not enough evidence to say that the USA is Babylon. Y'all will have to be far more convincing than that! : ^ ) Understand Jay, I am not attacking you or any one else in the group. I am only challenging what you are saying, because I have a strong scriptural "leg" to stand on. I hate the "accuser of the brethren" and all of his works. That is why I am sending this to you privately. I don't want to appear in any way as one who would attempt to "expose his brother's nakedness."

The above quote from you is not enough evidence for the guilty verdict, and neither is the other information that I have read. I am convinced SOME of the parallels drawn between the USA and Babylon are only speculative and possibly sensationalized. While we do need to discuss "these things now instead of finding ways to avoid them or divert the attention to areas which do not fit the present economic and political situations or dwell on the past", we also need to make sure we rightly divide the word of truth (Scripture) in applying it to the present discussion. (There are things we must avoid in the process.) If it fits the Biblical description of Babylon then so be it, if it does not then let us not speculate or sensationalize it. One can over-focus on the problems, and "see" things that are not there. If we only focus on the darkness then that is what we will communicate and, consequently, will misrepresent God's heart in the matter. He is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (Do not misunderstand, I am not completely discounting WHAT you are saying. I am not sure I totally agree with the "spirit" behind it. Could there be some critical bias in our application of Scripture? It is something I will continue to pray about. I also am striving to communicate the true Spirit of Christ in all that I do. Sometimes I find it difficult.

America has drifted from her God-ordained course. Her present political state is grievous, and has been for over half a century (at least). Economically she seems sound, but it is only cosmetic. The prayers of the saints are the glue that is holding this country together. More prayer is going up for this country than ever before in her history. I am convinced the prayers of the saints are and will prevail in this nation. (You see, I know God has chosen me to help bring revival, reform, and transformation in this country. God has placed a revivalist mantle upon me.) Too many are sitting around and finding fault with this country and are not doing something about it. Shall we arise to the occasion? Shall we, the Church, arise in apostolic authority and see whole cities and regions taken for the Kingdom of God? Will we press into God to the point that we become the Pauls, Wesleys, Finneys, and Wigglesworths of this hour. The day shall come when we will see the conviction of sin fall like rain upon this nation. News headlines will picture Congressmen and Senators praying on their knees in the House and Senate. The degree of the impact will be determined by the price the Church is willing to pay. The greatest victory Jesus won was not by directly confronting the powers of darkness, no, it was by Him letting them nail him to a cross. If the Church will take up her cross it could possibly mean life for a whole nation.

As far as this country's future, I see God's goodness continuing toward this nation, along with destructive forces being unleashed. I am not saying that God is behind these destructive forces, yet, they are coming. (I just found out today that a gasoline spill contaminated one third of the city of Dallas, Texas' water supply.) God is not being good to America because of her goodness. It is because of the prayers of the saints, and her call to be a major proponent in world evangelization. While America has been a staging point for much "abomination", she has also been a staging point for much good. What would the world be like without America? Her present situation looks bad, yet what does the future truly hold? God intends good. Can we make a difference in that? Francis Frangipane wrote, "It is not the Lord's heart to destroy this nation; humble and then heal, yes, but not destroy." Is this a "I hope so dream land" that he is speaking from or is he communicating God's heart. Is this a possibility or are we facing inevitable destruction. 2 Chronicles 7: 14 settles that issue.

There are two sides to every coin. While we must make sure that we are not as those who are saying, "Peace, peace" when there is none, we must also make sure we do not sensationalize the application of prophetic dreams, visions, words, and Scripture. I strongly recommend that you go to Mr. Frangipane's website and read two articles entitled: "A World Without America" and "Mercy Triumphs Over Judgment". He also has a book entitled "America the Lord has Need of You." If you would, go to these articles and read them. They further reveal where my heart is on the matter, and he does convey God's heart.

This may be something that we will have to agree to disagree on. I don't like having to do that any more than you do. However, in some cases it may be the only option. As for now, I will opt out of this current discussion and seek the Lord. I have no personal vendetta to fulfill here. Nor do I feel I need to defend anything... only clarify when necessary.

Love you bro,

Gary P.

One more time,

The consensus among those who are reputable prophetic voices does not indicate the USA as being Babylon... men and women like Rick Joiner, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Kim Clement, Frances Frangipane, Cindy Jacobs, and C. Peter Wagner. In order for that to be, this country's destruction would be inevitable. Babylon is inevitably destroyed as proclaimed by Scripture.

I have heard prophecies that proclaim destruction upon destruction on this nation. Destruction upon destruction was also proclaimed upon Israel in the book of Jeremiah (4: 20). However, the Lord declared, "Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it" (5: 1). God was willing to pardon it for one righteous person! Would he do any less for you and me? I submit to you that by virtue of the righteous company in this country that America could not be Babylon. At least while the righteous remain here. We are the salt that preserves and the light that exposes, convicts, and transforms society.

It is one thing to get a prophetic word, dream, or prophecy and it is another to correctly interpret and apply it. It is possible to misrepresent God's heart even in our application of prophetic Scripture.


Gary P.

Babylon rides upon the beast... The beast has four heads...

Now I see no other way around it in that America is one head of the beast and there are four. Not only that but the most notable head in prophecy represents the youngest of the nations and is a melting pot with all nations flowing into her. I have acknowledged that the eagle is a head of the beast but it also has been used to protect God's people and I no reason to believe that she will not continue to do so. So if Babylon rides upon four and only one of the four is America, it would follow that Babylon is not America but rather rides upon her as one of the heads. James makes the point that Babylon will fall when we unite. Also the devil lives in a spiritual city, many parallels can be made in the "city of God" as a counterpart. Also mentioned are the two kingdoms that we are to choose from. This reminds me all too much of the choice we make between Jesus and mammon. We may need to start discussing how we can spiritual discern these things with Bible and start looking at what Jesus taught. Matthew 6: 19 śLay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.... 24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

If we cannot identify a city except maybe Rome as the past factor in being the Mother, maybe we should narrow our focus on what we can identify, like mammon and usury and the evils of unrestrained capitalism, exploitation and economic oppression and greed and materialism. We can identify the beast, let us identify the nature of the beast. Greed has been the major factor in the killing of the saints, we know how the early Jerusalem church operated and that is the greatest argument against selfish capitalism, because they gave us the example of having things in common. That was in a Christian environment for sure but exactly what is Jesus coming to establish, certainly not the evils of capitalist imperialist anti-christian mammon worship. Let's look at the luke-warm church which depicts the church in our generation.

One thing we need to do is stay focused. Gary is right on here. Babylon is not America but has to be at least part of her and if there is a city of Babylon, we must at least recognize that it could be here somewhere in what could be considered as the capitol of the world or the capitol of world commerce. The One World Order is a fact today and we cannot deny that it is economic. Certainly there will be a revival and America will be a part of that but again, let us be focused, there will be blessings as well as judgment, I think that we have just broken through part of this.


hi again Jay-this is just a small follow up.I like to once again say thanks for allowing me to be apart of such a group as this.I would like to say that for me life is so much easier now after i came to understand that no matter what my God is in control.I also understand that the world must return back to the days of Noe before my Jesus shall return for me.From our darkest day shall come our greatest light.We sitting in front of these screens can not have the complete world wide picture.Babylon will be different to different peoples.We only know and understand what affects our small part of the world.I would love to hear what Babylon means to China,Japan,and even the North pole.For as Babylon will have different meanings-God is always the same to all people.I would also would enjoy hearing from anyone on this site so i may get to know a part of my family that i have not yet met.God is wonderful and so also is His family.So if it is alright please show my website and let people know that i would like to hear from them..thanks again your brother James S.

Hi, I thought I would write a quick note about Babylon. Babylon does not stand for an actual place although it involves actual places. Look at the beginnings of Babylon and see how it originated. The people wanted to build a city and a tower whose top may reach unto heaven, plus give themselves a name so they wouldn't be scattered throughout the earth. That is exactly what the church system doing today. Denominational, or nondenominational, or a man centered ministry, all of which are building cities. Just look at most church buildings and tell me why do they put a spire or tower on their building standing for that they know the best way to heaven. Also the first thing everyone does is puts a name on the ministries, there is no other name given under heaven whereby man must be saved, the name is Jesus. Remember according to 1 Cor. 15, the old testament is a physical type of something spirtual in the new testament. All this and much more was started by the Romans in this church era, but originated in Babylon. The great and terrible day of the Lord is coming to cleanse the land of Canaan from all the ungodly cities that are built in it. That time is short at hand, already the Lord has sent a famine from hearing the word of the Lord. Look at Y2K and all the prophetic blunders there. It's time to take of the mask and face reality. I'm saying this because I love the church dearly and can't sit idly by and not say anything. Love Neil

Hello to all,

In doing some research on the matter, I believe one could conclude that Babylon has yet to be fully revealed in this day. During that time, when the Book of Revelation was written, there was no argument as to who Babylon was: "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18). The only city that would match such a description at that time would have been Rome. The throne of Caesar rested in Rome. From there he ruled the earth, and from there sentenced many Christians to death. "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" (Revelation 17: 6).

Present day Babylon would not necessarily have to be Rome, yet would parallel her in her abominations and persecution of the saints. It is important to know who Babylon was in John's day in order to identify who it is today (or at least identify the spirit of Babylon and its present day work). I am not saying that it is possible to fully identify her today because, as mentioned earlier, I do not believe she has been fully revealed.

There is no city existing today, as far as I know, that one could actually identify as reigning over the kings of the earth. Yet, there are present day governments and religions that have murdered more Christians in this century than any predecessor. They are obvious: Communism and Islam. These would be considered as being drunken with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. This description does not fit the USA or Rome at this point.

I am convinced, after much deliberation, that the OPEC nations have more influence in the earth than even the USA. The USA's and many other nation's economies depend upon the oil supplied by them. Could this be the sorcery by which all the nation's were deceived referred to in Revelation 18: 23? Could this be the bewitching power Babylon has over the nations. If OPEC says, "Jump", all the other nations say, "How high?" Could the fornication that the nation's have committed with her be in their allowing the Islamic OPEC nations to build hundreds of mosques within their nations? Are we giving up the souls of men to their religion for the sake of prosperity? "And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and SLAVES, and SOULS OF MEN" (Revelation 18: 11-13).

The OPEC nations are largely dependant upon imports as is Babylon in the Book of Revelation. They purchase them with the money they get from the oil. Am I saying that these nations are Babylon? No. But they resemble the spirit of Babylon closer than any thing I have seen. (I don't know where Communism fits into all this. It could be that an unholy union may take place between the two in the future.)

It is interesting to note the definitions given by Strong's Concordance of two words found in Rev. 18: 3.

1. abundance

1) strength power, ability
1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
1b) power for performing miracles
1c) moral power and excellence of soul
1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth 1e) power and resources arising from numbers
1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

2. delicacies

1) excessive strength which longs to break forth, over strength
2) luxury
3) eager desire

Therefore, Revelation 18: 3,

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies",

could read like this,

" For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the power of her eager desire or longing to break forth.

Could this fit Islam's (or Communism?) eager desire to break forth and dominate the world? Islam's eagerness has definitely made them rich, and many others also.

Anyhow, there would also have to be a a present day city or headquarters like unto Rome from which a "Caesar" would reign. It would be the headquarters of the dwelling place of demons (18: 2), and the persecution of the saints would be staged from there. Babylon is still somewhat of a mystery. However, we can identify the spirit of Babylon which is evident in many places in the earth.

I am not presenting this as a word from the Lord, but the similarities are intriguing.


Gary P.

Thank you. The posting to which I reply is indeed a valuable one. And who is this "Ginny"? Ginny has got it goin' on,...

and if you would be so kind, please present to these people that you know the idea that there may be a city in China that sits on seven hills.

I do not know of one - but I was VERY impressed to discover that in this very rabidly growing economic community, within the main stock exchange, in the center of all of the very busy activity, a raised platform has been built...a quiet, empty place in the center of all that very important (in earthly terms) activity...

specifically to honor "the dragon".

Culturally, of course, the dragon has been a national symbol for China for millenia. The designer of the stock exchange building explained that the honor of the dragon is "for good luck" - in that manner of understanding of luck tht is typical for one who is Chinese. Such "good luck" to me seems to be - "feed the dragon young tender virgins and maybe the dragon will never be so hungry as to leave his cave and burn the village and eat your people" kind of good luck. Defintately not any luck I wish to have.

Encourage these prophets/prophetesses to look into this matter, and when they have something worthwhile to say, pass it on to me, too.

Just one final thought on the matter Jay,

While meditating, this came to me: the image that appeared to King Nebuchanezzar in his dream revealed him as the head of gold. By association, Babylon would be the head of the image (See Daniel 2: 31-45).
The image represented four kingdoms. The feet represented the fourth kingdom "mixed with clay" or "mingled with the seed of men". (Actually, more precisely five kingdoms.)

Most scholars agree that the iron represents the Roman Empire, and the iron mixed with clay represents the Roman Empire mixed with the "seed of men" whatever that means.

These kingdoms made up one image or symbolic body. Babylon is the head of all the kingdoms (the rest of the body), thus, making them subservient to the head. That would mean that the "spirit" of Babylon continued to find expression through the other four subservient kingdoms (the arms, waist legs, and feet). This would be the reason why Rome was referred to as Babylon in the book of Revelation. The Spirit through John could not have been referring to Jerusalem at that time because it was destroyed in 70 A.D. Babylon was 'that great city that reigns (present tense) over the kings of the earth." Jerusalem was destroyed approximately twenty years before the writing of John's revelation.

When the Stone hit the image on its feet it was destroyed in Daniel 2. This would be an Old Testament prophecy of the coming destruction of Babylon. You see that image that the king saw is Babylon. This same image was to be destroyed during the time of the kingdom that was typified as "iron mixed with clay" or "the Roman Empire mixed with the seed of men". (Note: Some believe the "iron" represented Alexander the Great of Greece. That would make the Roman Empire the "iron mixed with clay".)

One could identify Babylon if there was a positive identification of who the "iron mixed with clay" is today. What does that mean?

That is it for me.

Blessings to all,
Gary P.

Good point Gary,

The only nation I see today as being a world power that is mixed with the seed of men is America. It is the one thing that led me to believe that America was Babylon from the beginning. But I have to realize that Babylon rides upon four heads. I do believe that America is the most prominent head and is a mixture of strong and weak (iron and clay). I think rather than putting it to rest and coming up with a conclusion, I will put one more appeal to the latter rain list for more discussion in the hopes that there might be more with something to say. Jay.

The Roman Empire also mixed with Christianity beginning around 300 A.D. Some believe that is what it is referring to.

Gary P.

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