Last Discussion on Babylon?

April 14, 2000

This group is really blessed to have such spirituality.

There was enough dialogue on the sidelines here that I felt it was good to forward these before I take the time and put a conclusion to Babylon together. The first is a conversation between Dean and me concerning the wasting of time in responding to those who trouble us. If we are truly restoring the church (temple), then we are part of the Zerubbabel ministry that has come out of Babylon. That makes us the remnant that has been called out to do the building. Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord. During the Babylon discussion, we have seen those who would rather tear down other's ministries than build up, we have those sent that were allowed to attack us and we have those that would divert our attention from the task at hand. All are to be expected if we are really doing the work of the Lord but we must stay focused.

Then I have another conversation between Bordtodis and myself concerning our focus and that Babylon is a state of mind and not a place. The conclusion of the theme here was the fact that other great ministries had been too focused on themselves and not completely been focused on the Lord. Both of these conversations started on the sidelines but are pertinent enough to what we are doing to share them, both are concerned with making our focus clear. They also serve as a good conclusion to a very fruitful discussion that we have had on Babylon. I am very encouraged.


Hi Jay, I am grieved. i came across this anti-charismatic stuff on the net and the arguments were so poor that i decided to challenge him....but he has not even responded. i am grieved by the hardness of heart in people. well maybe he is just away or something. i will write back if he doesn't respond and ask him for an acknowledgment. i am thinking of putting together a website with some charismatic apologetics cos so much nonsense is being said. and i could also put some articles on it and some historical stuff. well we will see.

Hi Dean,

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

I do a lot of research on-line. I see a lot of good sites and bad ones. I get hate mail every once in a while also but not even as much good mail that I get. Most tell me that they have been blessed by what God has taught me. I used to respond to the hate mail, no longer, it is a waste of time and I want to use my time wisely.

There cannot be anyone that can be blessed by the words that a person like that can say. The only blessing that one can think they receive is to have itching ears that are hearing what they want to hear but it doesn't come from the Lord. For me, it is usually a waste of time to communicate with someone like that. It is the old saying that it is unfair to have a war of wits with an unarmed person. The Holy Spirit must be able to convince that person that he is ignorant. The more you say will just entrench him into his own way of thinking and he will try that much harder to find the words to combat you. Once you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, it can no longer be denied. I am glad that Jesus baptized me the way He did. It was like a Damascus road experience, I was not seeking it, it came through repentance. For others, it may take the same but until then, they are satisfied with their own smug satisfaction. This is part of the Babylonian confusion. There is a time coming soon when they will be cast down and judgment is coming to the church.

For me at least, I am spending my time with those that have a teachable spirit and are doing God's will. You may be called to do something different, like putting together answers to people like that, but if you are grieved, I would think not. I don't get grieved any more, I get mad at them and stretch my hand out against them. It may be in rebuke but it also comes with the attitude that Lord, if they will repent, draw them near to you, if not, stand in their way. I get the feeling sometimes of being guilty because I do not want to confront them with the truth. But if I am to spend my time wisely, it will be with people that respond to the truth, not combat it. There are a lot of people that I do not respond to.

If you feel called to do it, fine. But you are setting yourself up for disappointment and grief most of the time. You could argue that it only takes that one time for someone to respond that would make it all worth while but for me that time is better spent on those that accept God's Spirit, not teach against it. Do you realize that when someone comes to his site and believes what he says, that they are already going that direction anyway. If God is drawing a person to Him, that person will see right through that hateful judgmental attitude and go somewhere else for the truth.

I am just saying if it is a waste of time for me, it may be a waste of time for you as well. You may need to confront a hundred of them for one to believe you, God knows that there are many of them out there. You are trying to reason with a person who is unreasonable, a meeting of minds with someone with a defective mind, a spiritual encounter with a lying spirit. A demon cannot be reasoned with, it must be cast out in power.

There are many fruitful discussions that I have had with ignorant people but it has only been fruitful in the sense that I have learned something about them that I can pass on at my site concerning their ignorance. I have yet to convince a bigoted person to change their ways, so I quit trying and have to discipline myself not to feel that I have to take the time and go back and try again. Self-rightousness and pride is a real killer. I would rather talk to someone in the deepest depths of sin and try to bring them to the truth than anyone that thinks that they have it all together when they don't.


Hi Jay, thank you very much for your email. you are totally right. i am just being foolish to think i can reason with these people. i have come across these types on the internet and find them to be bigoted fundamentalists. i am foolish to think of winning the war with reasoning. these people have never tasted of the powers of the age to come or known the reality of the Word of God. Jude says of these that of some 'we should make a difference' and pluck them out of the fire. i thought this guy might be different. a couple of weeks ago i challenged this guy about a negative review he did on the final quest. he has since taken the site down for review. but the strongholds he has are so huge and entrenched that i doubt i can help him much. the word says concerning those who have a form of godliness but deny the power of it: 'from such turn away'. i am glad i shared this with you. like you i want to go to those who are really in need, and i am not called to people like that who are stumbling one is because Jesus said of them 'leave them alone and let them fall in the ditch.'
In Him

Yeah, this is something I had to learn though. The other week someone asked me to be a part of their discussion list. Since I am called to discuss things i went and shared. Someone asked about "getting" the Holy Ghost, so I gave them my testimony and the reply from the leader was that they had all they needed. Stupid for sure, I hope I never have that kind of self-sufficiency. The point is that I dismissed it, deleted the e-mail link and figured that they didn't want to accept, so I have better things to do than argue with them. But I felt guilty and could not have peace over it. I kept thinking that they are Christians and I should go back and reason with them some more and I was dismissing them too quickly. I did not want to do it but had the attitude that I must have peace about it and felt Lord do I have to? Anyway the next day, one of Marsha Burn's prophetic bulletins shared "Rise up above the noise and clamor of circumstances that want to dominate your attention and focus. Give no place for the nagging voice of the enemy that wants to dump you down into condemnation, rejection and self-focus. Throw off the cloak of anxiety and worry." Well only then did peace come because I realized that the enemy was just trying to draw me into these fruitless arguments and I should stay focused and not worry about it. Thought I would share that.


Hi Jay
Regarding Capitalism, i think we need to distinguish between modern day monopolistic capitalism, which is really a form of fascism/communism, and a free market economy, which america was in the beginning. what we have emerging now is a small group of international financiers who own everything. the modern system is built upon fractional reserve banking and such like. the early american founders were against central banks as the enemy of liberty. they were against eliminating gold and silver from the economy and they were against any group of people, whether the state or private financiers, being in a position to influence the economy. i do believe in a true free market economy as envisioned by the framers of the US constitution, and which has made many countries in the West rich and prosperous while socialist countries can't even feed their own.

I have found out that Babylon is not a place per say. Babylon is a state of mind. You can get folks out of Babylon, but it's hard to get Babylon out of the people. Many, actually hundreds of church systems have started, people trying to get out on their own, trying to "manifest Christ" within themselves, trying to "become" Christ in the earth, trying to "enter into" resurrection life, only to become a carbon copy, or a "mini Babylon" themselves. Sort of like the "hippie movement" only to become a junio establishment themselves. The religionists have taught me one thing, if it don't come easy, better leave it alone. The religions were all created with a certain amount of stretching it trying to find that one element that makes themselves unique. The old mind game of man trying to build, to improve, to see their own reflection in what they have created. That is Babylon. Man's own arrogance.


.............. By the way, Jay, what is your opinion of the revival down at the AOG church in Pensacola, and the Toronto revival? Have you had a chance to go and check them out? I am wondering how much the AOG has to do with this. I know that the top people of the Assemblies don't seem to be too verbal about it.

Hi again Bordtodis,

....... I have no idea about the AOG and Pensacola and Toronto. As far as I can see, they are genuine moves of God but then, God is dealing with me in His own way. I link to them. I have thought that the assemblies of God have generally been resistant to any revival movement that they think is not coming directly from them. As they cling on to the confusion that they are under and refuse to come to proper order, they tend to refute things like the latter rain and the five-fold. As far as I know the AOG has nothing to do with it. But since I keep away from them pretty much and associate more with non-denominational, I cannot say for sure.

I only moved to Stockton in September and the Lord has not led me to a church yet that is quite able to reach out to me in the way I know that I am called there. My parents and sister go to a Baptist church and I have been going to the sunday school class there most every week. The pastor is good but Baptist, although he has been called upon by Pentecostals as a unity speaker. He actually is good and open to spiritual gifts. A lot of Baptists have become full gospel, especially the American Baptists, not the Southern or the Conservative Baptists. This pastor is American Baptist.

Last night I attended a meeting of a small group working downtown in an outreach ministry. I think now that I am called there to work with them. I have been waiting all my life for something, this may be it.

Thanks for the piece on Babylon. There has not been any more to add than already discussed so I will be putting something together probably tomorrow.


I was thinking about the Brownsville revival today, and here are my thoughts:

You know at one time, because of arrogance I would not consider anything that was going on in any Assembly of God church as anything of importance, because I thought that none of the denominations were "open to what the Lord was doing in the earth." The implication being that "what the Lord was doing in the earth" was fully captured within the confines of our little "remnant."

That "remnant" I am referring to, now amounts to a pretty typical Charismatic church, which aint all that bad, considering when I left them about 17 or 18 years ago they were waiting for the "apostle to the kingdom" to come back from the grave and lead them into resurrection life. They wouldn't even let them embalm his body.

I think back to a church I went to when I was a youth that was part of the Jesus movement. There were miracles happening and people getting saved, yet, when the Children of God infiltrated it, it only took around 2 weeks for the change to come. I left the church and the "Children" left WITH the church, the pastor's wife, and 6 vans.

Well, I wonder why I am saying all this stuff. I think that I am saying all this because I have come to realize that it matters not one whit how firm a grasp we THINK we have of what "what God is saying in this hour," Unless we have the reality of Jesus Christ in our hearts we are just like any obscure and lifeless congregation. I think that so far those people down in Pensacola are pretty much glorifying God, though there are probably times when they get a little enthusiastic. I have no idea if the reports are true about people growling and barking etc. I don't know if the elders are allowing it or dealing with it when it comes up. I just know that the gathering there has the same chance as any, THERE BETTER BE A SUBMISSION TO THE LORD AND A CONFIRMING IN THE WORD OF GOD, OR THEY ARE DESTINED TO FAIL. It may feel good for a while, but the time will come when the emptiness will be unbearable, looking back on all the promise, and realizing it wasn't the devil that took it all away, it was the people themselves that threw it all away.

I hope they have a good time down there. I hope there are millions saved, and I pray for them. I pray though that they don't get into the mode of thinking that they are the only people on earth that hear from God, as that mindset is much more dangerous than thinking that some animal sound means that God is saying this, or another means God is saying that. God aint saying anything that He has not already plainly said in His Word, it won't be some new "revelation," but there can be an "illumination" of the word of God and a realization of the essence and being of Jesus Christ, that is the key to the Kingdom of God. He is the door opener. When He gets the praise, then it doesn't matter that much to me how people want to turn the chairs, or what kind of hairstyle, or music, or lingo, makes me no difference to me. Just God protect them from the arrogance, don't let that set in, in the name of Jesus, Amen
your friend,

Hi Bordtodis,

Of course I agree with what you said. I really hope that the AOG does just what you say and become according to that illumination. I believe that it will happen in part to that remnant you speak of no matter what denomination. When I speak about getting out of Babylon, it is that state of mind that you mentioned before and not a particular church. When the Lord spoke to the seven churches, He did not tell them to get out of the churches, He told them to repent and strengthen what remained.

When you speak of "the apostle to the kingdom" are you referring to William Branham? It sounds like it but I didn't know what denomination he was from. From what I have read, it was really sad about him. The Lord gave him a powerful ministry, he started believing what others said about him, pride took him captive, went into an exclusive Jesus only doctrine and God took him home. End of story. There are still those that are trying to make him into a cult figure and still insist that he was Elijah.

As to things like the Pensacola revival, I have generally addressed the manifestations on one of my pages, I can't remember which one, maybe my latter rain article. Anyway, I think that there can be counterfeit spirits but enthusiasm is not one of them. Maybe we can get over enthusiastic and the devil can imitate but the word is from the Greek and means God within (entheos), can we have too much God within? The enthusiasm produces excitement, joy and gladness and affects people in different ways. Those at Pentecost were accused of too much wine. I cannot say most anything for sure about them but I agree that they are saved, are glorifying God and that their enthusiasm is a foretaste of what will be happening with the latter rain outpouring. I personally also believe that they will not think it is for them only and that is why they have received that peculiar anointing. I think I will share this with the group when I mail next, it has something to do with Babylon and of those that have gotten out of her and it seems that it is pretty much all that the lord has for us. That and a conversation that I had with Dean.


History of (another man)........ This is the apostle that I was talking about Jay. This is the church that I was in and the church that I loved, even to this day, I am troubled by the outcome of this movement. It was so full of expectation, but it came to nothing. But then perhaps it is finally on the right track, as they seem to have lost some of the arrogance of their youth. Anyway, check this man out.
your friend

Looks like (that other man) had a great ministry and that he had the right idea. He tried to do what we are doing today and that is restoring the church to its original purity and getting people out of Babylon. It would seem however that he stepped ahead of God's timing and like William Branham's movement, pride set in. We in the restoration movement need to be very careful that we do not make the same mistakes. His ministry seemed to be centered around the man rather than the Lord. He was the leader of the group and when he died, the leadership was given over to his wife instead of to the Lord, where it belonged in the first place.

I am proud to say that this group has acknowledged Jesus as our leader and that we are servants to Him and to each other instead of leaders. I am thankful that there are good people in this group like you who recognize this. It was you who first drew my attention to the first trumpet being blown and for us to lay our crowns at the feet of Jesus. This more than anything will bring the five-fold into proper order for us to have the wisdom and knowledge to get out of Babylon. If the Babylonian captivity consists of religious confusion out of man's efforts to reach God, then failed ministries teach us a good lesson. We need to do the right things for the right reasons, humbling ourselves before Him, giving Him the authority instead of trying to start new churches and separatist ministries to do the work and resign ourselves through the power of the Holy Ghost, let Him do the work and follow His lead.

It is time to stop tearing down the ministries of others that do not agree with us and seek to build them up. We know that God will humble the proud and judgment begins at the house of God but that is His work, not ours. You are so right, Babylon is not a place, it is a state of mind and if we are to receive the seal of God, then we must humble ourselves and renew our minds but there are so many overseers of the church that need to know this before there can be true unity. They are off doing their own thing for the Lord instead of the Lords thing. I know this is my calling, to dialogue with others in love, identify the divisions and get the word out so we can come to unity. It is to be done in love for all of us and in putting away our pride so that they can recognize us. God give us the strength!! Then we can be sent of the Lord as a true apostles and God speak through us as true prophets and give up condemning and confronting the church but rather seek to make it stronger.

Appreciate your input brother,


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