Babylon Update

April 3, 2000

Hi Everybody,

This is just an update on what we have been discussing on Babylon and to let you know that it is definitely going in a positive direction here.

Remember these things.

We are living in the last days and satan wants us to be completely ignorant of who Babylon is and will put up all kinds of roadblocks to distract us and get us to look into other directions. He will send those to discourage us, lie to us with promises of other truths, we will be insulted, reviled and every type of reason will be given to change the subject and take us from bearing fruit on this issue. The most he can do is to get us to ignore the issue and go on with business as usual, then he has won. The most important thing for the church today in restoration is to be able to first get out of Mystery Babylon the Great, so what we are discussing is of immense importance to the end-time church. We cannot remain in Babylon just for the sake of loving those that will not come out. For those that who are not able to get out of her, there are maledictions promised that we will be a part of her sins. You have to know that this will ultimately happen and it will be sooner than later. If the church cannot take it seriously, then God will send her a strong delusion that she will believe a lie. I pray that this will not happen to those of us on this list. Please take this seriously.

And get involved with the discussion. Don't be shy. Just e-mail me with whatever. Those involved in the discussion do not yet have the answers, so don't be afraid to question.

Now I have taken a much different direction on this issue as to how we are discussing from those issues of the past. From the very beginning, I have left it up to the discussion group and the Lord to give us answers. If you follow the current discussion, the issue now is that of Babylon as a nation or as a great city. Is it Rome or the U.S. or what? In my way of thinking, both are alluded to and possibly Jerusalem is in this as well.

Babylon is upon many waters and rides upon the beast that came out of the sea which has four heads. The beast/heads of Daniel 7 are easy to recognize just by looking at who they could be in the current world political situation:

The only interpretation of who the bear could be is Russia.

The only interpretation as far as who the lion standing like a man could be is England, this is a very easily recognizable symbol of England.

The only recognizable symbol of the eagle being plucked from the standing lion would be the U.S.A.

The leopard is not as easy to recognize because I do not see it as a national symbol like the rest of them, but to me, it would represent the many spots that a leopard has and would represent a coalition of nations. The only one I see that could fit in the current political situation would be the European Union. These nations with the other three beasts, comprise NATO and the bulk of the richest and most powerful parts of the World Trade Organization. Again, these are the interpretations that fit the current world situations and correspond to the clear understanding of scripture. Babylon rides on them.

We must look at this issue through the eyes of one in the 21st century and onto the current political, economic and religious situations and only look to the past for some clarifications and the meaning of how we got here. And we must be able to fit these situations into Bible prophecy. The early Christians in the first century were all united in thinking that the Lord would return in their lifetime and it was easy for them to see Babylon as being the Roman Empire. Again, during the Reformation period, the most logical culprit to the Protestants, who would have naturally thought of restoration, would of been ecclesiastical Rome. But we are not in the first or the sixteenth century and cannot look at what these people thought during these times as conclusive. They may however lead us to correct conclusions to the present. The point is that the early Christians were wrong in thinking that they were the last generation and so were the early Protestants. This does not rule out Rome but it does rule out thinking that Babylon is Rome just because others in the past said it was. Another thing is that when the vision was given to John, he was seeing future events, those things that looked like they were fulfilled in the past were actually yet to come for him but given in the context of John being transported into the future. So when five kings had fallen, it must be taken from the time that John was transported to. Inotherwords, the revelation of John must be taken in the context of "things which must be hereafter", starting with the beginning of the church at the time of John and ending with the Day of the Lord.

We may want to look at Rome with the evils of the Nicolaitan system of separation of clergy and laity that the Protestants have continued with to this present day as being part of Babylon. This is the correlation between the Roman idea of church hierarchy as being continued with the Protestants with fleshly Christian leadership instead of servants and ministers in the church. It cannot be Rome unless the rest of the church takes part in the guilt of what Papal Rome has originally stood for and that is a system of exalting church leaders over others and diluting the authority of Christ. We may want to discuss usury.

Rome is only part of the church and still one of the seven lights of Asia. We may want to look at the church of Pergamos which dwells where satan's seat is, they are said to hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. This is the church of Rome, what relation does Pergamos have with Babylon, if any? They have still held fast to the name of Jesus and have not denied the faith and even though they are told to repent, they are still here unto the coming of the Lord or Jesus would not have told them that He comes quickly. Also when Peter writes about those at Babylon, was he writing from Rome? Maybe, but coming out of Rome and becoming a Protestant, which can be worse, with their legalism, materialism and puritan ignorance, makes no sense to me. There must be more.

Check out Revelation 17. The whore sits upon many waters and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her. Babylon sits on seven mountains and Rome sits on seven hills but so does Jerusalem, for that matter, so does San Francisco in the land of fruits and nuts. If they are mountains and not hills, then what of the seven continents, would that not also apply? If Babylon sits on many waters, how can Rome do that unless she is many mountains on many waters? Now you see where my mind goes. The hills of Rome do not sit on many waters unless it is only figuratively speaking concerning its influence, but is not according to the plain interpretion of scripture. Not that things in the Bible are always plain but you get the idea. We know that the waters are many peoples and tongues and nations and the Roman church is in every nation, but does she reign over the kings of the earth? Not likely, for Rome cannot be taken as the great economic power that the merchants of the earth will lament over. She may be a religious power, but a military and economic one? Not in my mind but I am listening and looking for more answers from you.

We have many good things spoken of below: We need to pull out as many as we can out of Babylon. Babylon as a city - some have spoken of New York as the city with the stock market, the United Nations and the World Trade center. The issue of Babylon being a mother and then being the daughter of Babylon. Maybe Babylon is more of a world system like monopolistic trade and the evils of capitalism, than actually a nation.

Anyway, we are certainly not ready to come out of her if we cannot yet agree who she is. I believe that with the spirit of God working in our hearts and minds that we will come up with the answers that are needed and we are getting somewhere. But it takes all of us. Get back to me.


Friend in Jesus,

Though we may identify who Babylon is and represents, it is my understanding of the Scriptures that these things may be fulfilled and will come to fruition. How else can His GLORY be seen? How else can He be glorified but by the suffering of His saints? We are called out of Babylon, but just like satan when he is exposed, there are millions who will go down with him. Such is Babylon. She will take many with her. Part of my job as a Servant of Jesus Christ is to help pull out as many out of Babylon as I can while it is still day, before the night comes!! We must be watchful in prayer 24/7. Never giving place to the devil. It is my intention to pullout as many as I can. Babylon will fall. It is inevitable. Praise God. The US is heading down a very dangerous path. I hope this is on target for someone out there. Bless His name.


Hi Jay,

I pray to God that America is not Babylon! I don't idolize this country, but I do live here. In addition, I have a calling to help bring revival to this nation and am fully convinced it will happen. To what degree I am not sure.

Along with her corruption, America has done much good also. I am not convinced that she is Babylon. The Book of Revelation does say specifically that it is a city. Yet, I will give it further study. There are similarities, yet some inconsistencies. There is something else it could be, but I will pray and do more research into the matter before presenting it.

Gary P.


I must agree with you about Babylon...the Bible does identify it as a "great city". The Greek word for "nation" (or nations) is mentioned 21 times in the book of Revelation. Babylon is mentioned only as "the Great City".

The words "great" and "city" in Greek (N.T.) is "megale" and "polis". In urbanization (since the late 60's) we have used the term "megalopolis"-quoting from the Britannica Ency. it reads: "from the ancient Greek city of the Peloponnese the name of which meant Great City, the term proposed by the French geographer Jean Gottman to describe a very large urban conglomeration." (vol.VI pg.754)

The study continues in Vol.18 pg.923: " In the unprecedented outward sprawl of urban settlement, the U.S. has created some novel settlement forms...a territorial coalescence of two or more good-sized cities whose peripheral zones have grown together...There are major examples in Great Britain,West Germany, as well as Japan...Nothing elsewhere, however, rivals in sheer size and complexity the aptly named Megalopolis, that Super-City of more than 30,000,000 inhabitants stretching along the Atlantic Seaboard from Southern Maine to Central Virginia. Other great conurbations include, in the great lakes region, one centered on Chicago and containing large slices of Illinois, Wisconsin, and Indiana; another based in Detroit, embrassing large parts of Michigan and Ohio and reaching towards Canada; and a third stretching from Buffalo through Cleveland and back to Pittsburgh. All three are reaching out to one another and will shortly form another megalopolis, one that, in turn may soon be grafted onto the Seaboard megalopolis by way of a corridor through Central New York State." ( 1979 edition of Britannica) As you can see, this description above is 20 years old. It would be interesting to see what the progress of growth has been in these cities since.

National Geographic Magazine printed a supplement map in their July 1994 issue of the "Megalopolis" along the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S. Another interesting thing about this area of the States is that the United Nations is there representing more than 150 nations, and languages around the globe, not to mention the World Trade Center. All this taken together definately confirms that this is the area of the globe mentioned in Revelation. I pray that this group will give some careful, prayerful thought to this information. It was revealed to me after many weeks of fasting and prayer to God that He would reveal "who" She was, if it was "time". This study came to me about 4 years ago.

There is much more that needs to be said concerning Revelation chap.17 and I will be glad to give it to each one of you exactly as the Holy Spirit revealed it to me, if you would be interested to know.

May the Lord continue to graciously lead each one of us into all of His precious Truths for this time.

IN Christ's Love,

To the group:

In defense of Jay's thinking concerning Babylon as a nation, I submit the following. I copied it this morning of Britannic Online, listed under "Supercities of the United States":

"One of the few predictions that seem safe in a dynamic and innovative a land as the United States is that, unless severe and painful controls are placed on land use, the shape of the urban environment will be increasingly megalopolitan."

In other words, the super cities of the U.S. are sprawling so rapidly, that one day there exists the probability that the entire U.S. will consist of one megalopolis reaching out, touching another...forming "one giant megalopolis". Will this happen? Will God permit time to go on long enough for this to become a reality? God only knows, but it is something that we must bear in mind until other things occur that are predicted concerning her.

I will post the additional information I am putting together and I have been enlightened about, this evening. Let us all pray for God's wisdom and guidance concerning the matter.

IN Christ's Love,

Thanks Ginny,

that was an awesome testimony Brian!

hmm well as far as i know the United Kingdom is one of the most densly populated countries in the world. probably five or ten times that of the USA. one thing i love about America is how much space there is everywhere, even on the east coast. sure a large area is urbanised on the east coast but you have to go right deep into the cities for the real urbanisation. new york state is almost all rural. maryland has large rural parts too. so virginia. london has around 8 million people within it. surrounding london to a radius of 50 miles there is something like 25 million people. yet you go on an airplane or train and even all that area is mostly fields and forests.

well revelation describes a city on seven hills. there are two cities which could qualify there. Rome and Jerusalem. it is said to be the city which rules over the kings of the earth. therefore Rome. it is said to be drunk with the blood of martyrs. America has so far been one of the most free countries on earth. not to say that can't change. but it would have to go a long way to catch up with other nations. babylon is described as a harlot, whereas the true church is a bride. therefore it is an apostate church system, guilty of the blood of the saints, she is dressed in purple and scarlet and centered on Rome. any guesses? Jay you specifically asked that no one bring forward this view so i never said anything. this has been the view of christians throughout history, including Wycliffe,Luther,Arminius,Wesley, and even some of Joyner's tapes on church history and his book on the Harvest touch on this. i have tons of info and links if anyone is interested.

though the Roman church obviously has been the major manifestation of this spirit, false babylon is seen where-ever this spirit is. it is fundamentally the religious spirit which exalts itself against the true knowledge of God. to one degree or another most protestant denominations have their roots more in Babylon/Rome than in the New Jerusalem. this is something that needs to be rooted out of all of us. personally i think that a charismatic catholic who loves the Lord is a lot less influenced by this spirit than a self righteous religious dogmatic and exclusive protestant.


Greetings to everyone in the group!

I apologize for the delay, I wanted to get this out to you earlier, but I had to work with my husband today. I submit this prayerfully and humbly to you for your study. May God send His precious Spirit to open your minds and enlighten your hearts concerning this matter.

The Dragon: as mentioned in Revelation 12:3 & 9 which John saw in vision, had 7 HEADS and 10 HORNS. The dragon is clearly identified as "the old serpent" (which appeared to Eve), the devil, which is also called satan. There is clearly also a "difference" in the HEADS and HORNS. Both are a "part" or a "system" of the devil - but mentioned here in such a way as to cause us to study them as separate systems.

In order to understand them we must see how they appear in their "given time" in earth's history (past & future).

The 7 HEADS (with 7 crowns on their heads): The angel explains this system to John in Revelation 17: 9 - 11. These verses tell us the following:

1.) The 7 HEADS are 7 "mountains", where the woman, identified as "Mystery Babylon or the "MOTHER Babylon" (see vs.5) is sitting.

2.) There are 7 kings.

3.) We are made aware that this "dragon system" existed during the days of John because the angel said to him, " 5 (kings) are fallen, and one is (reigning), and the other is not yet come." (vs.10)

4.) "the beast that "was"...even he IS the 8th, but is (a part) of the 7". In other words, the 8th - the "beast" is a part of that same system that the 7 kings are in, appearing at the same time in earth's history.

Let's take each one of these above points and look at them in detail:

1.) Babylon (the MOTHER) sits on 7 "mountains". Since the New Testament is translated from the Greek language, looking at the Greek word gives us what the "mountains" are. "mountains, as lifting itself above the plain - hill". So this also means "hill". Rome, during the time of John and the early Christians sat on "7 hills".

2. & 3.) The ROMAN EMPIRE and it's 7 KINGS:

Caesar Augustus     27 B.C. - 14 A.D.
- John the Baptist was be-headed by Rome. Under the reign of Augustus
Jesus was born in Bethlehem; Herod, a Roman ruler sought to take His life "as soon as He was born". Revelation 12: 3 - 5 clearly says this "power" with the 7 HEADS was present when Christ was about to be born into the world.

Tiberius     14 A.D. - 37 A.D.
- Under the reign of Tiberius Jesus Christ was crucified by Rome. Roman historian, Cornelius Tacitus wrote about Christ's crucifixion.

Caligula     37 A.D. - 41 A.D.
- Caligula was the nephew of Tiberius. The word "circus" in it's origin is usually traced to the circuses and amphitheaters of Rome. The torture of Christians was an added attraction at the "Circus Caligula". Alot of these exhibitions were also presented in Romes great amphitheaters. Caligula became "insane" after less than a year, even though he continued to rule until he was assassinated in 41 A.D.

Claudius I     41 A.D. - 54 A.D.
- Under the reign of Claudius, the apostle Paul was imprisoned and James was executed.

Nero     54 A.D. - 68 A.D.
- Nero executed many of the early Christians. He falsely accused the Christians of starting the "great fire of Rome" in 64 A.D., which caused them to be hated even more bitterly.

Vespasian     69 A.D. - 79 A.D.
- It was during the reign of Vespasian that John was exiled to the island of Patmos. While there, he received his visions of Revelation. As John was seeing the vision , he was told by the angel, " 5 have fallen, one IS reigning. This was the 6th - Vespasian. In 70 A.D. it was Vespasian that gave his son Titus orders to conquer the Jews and Jerusalem, and it is estimated that more than 1 million Jews were destroyed.

Titus     79 A.D. - 81 A.D.
- The angel said to John, "the other ( the 7th), has not yet appeared, and when he does arrive he must stay but a brief time." (Rev. 17:10). The reign of Titus only lasted 2 years, a "brief time" as predicted.

Domitian     81 A.D. - 96 A.D.
- The angel said, "but as for the "beast" ... he is the 8th (ruler) ".

The "Beast" which the angel said was the 8th, which followed Titus to the throne of Rome was Domitian. The ruler Domitian was known in history as the only Roman ruler who's memory was "officially damned" by Rome itself. He used very high-handed methods to accomplish his desires. For him, the body of the Senate in Rome existed merely to supply imperial servants. He demanded extravagant honors; he punished mercilessly any act of disrespect, real or fancied towards himself. He was suspicious and ruthless. It was a rulership of tyranny; executions and confiscations of property were frequent. He relished the title of "god" and was known for his reign of terror, especially against the Christians. He is the "type" of man who appears again as the "beast" at the end of time.

The 10 HORNS - 2nd system of the devil:

Revelation 17: 12-18 tells us about another "system" of the devil (dragon) - the 10 HORNS - which exist at the end of time. From these scriptures, we learn the following:

1.) The 10 HORNS are 10 kings which were " futuristic". the angel said to John , "they have received no kingdom as yet."

2.) These 10 kings appear with another "beast" (which Rev. 13: 18 identifies him as a "man" with a particular "number"). They all reign (receive power) "together" for one hour.

3.) Rev. 17:13 tells us they act in harmony with one another and make war with the Lamb (Jesus) and His chosen, faithful people.

4.) Rev. 17: 15 & 18 clearly identifies Babylon, NOT as the MOTHER harlot, but as "a whore", "a woman", and "a great city".

5.) The 10 kings, along with the "beast" (the man) "hate the whore" and burn her with fire; it is God's will for them to accomplish this act of vengeance against her for corrupting the "earth" with her "influence".

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah write about this last day "Babylon". She is called the "daughter of Babylon". This study will be followed with the Bible texts concerning the "daughter".

IN Christ's Love,

Greetings to all of you!

Since the Babylon that existed during the time of Rome was called the "MOTHER" (Rev. 17: 5) and another Babylon exists at the end of time, it would seem logical that she should be called the "daughter" in order to make a distinction between the two in scripture. If not, there would be no way of "sorting" which Babylon is being spoken about. God is so WISE and reveals His plans to those who love Him that they may be aware of the time and that they do not suffer along with the "wicked" who have no regard for Him as their Creator; nor count as any value the blood of Christ that would save them from eternal loss.

It is no coincidence that Jeremiah tells Seraiah that after he reads all the Words (from God) to Babylon, Seraiah was to take the book the Words were written in, bind them to a stone and cast them into the Euphrates and say, "thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her." (Jer. 51 : 63,64)

We find a very similar occurrence in Revelation 18:21. We see the mighty angel which has just spoken the Words of God to last-day Babylon, take up a stone, casting it into the sea saying, "thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down."

The Empire of Babylon which existed during the days of Isaiah and Jeremiah was the "original" Babylon, though there are many references concerning "the daughter of Babylon". These prophecies are clearly for another Babylon other than the Empire.

Another text: "One post shall run to meet another, and one messenger to meet another, to show the king of Babylon that his CITY is taken at one end." (Jer. 51: 31 Notice here that the prophecy is concerning a CITY called Babylon as is mentioned in Rev. 17: 18 and NOT the kingdom of Babylon.

"The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come." Jer. 5l: 33

"Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender & delicate." ( In the Dictionary, anyone who practices sorcery or astrology is called a "Chaldean"). Revelation 18: 23 says of the last-day Babylon, "for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

There is" global "recognition of her destruction: "At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations." Jer. 50 : 46

The following is a list of scriptures from Isaiah and Jeremiah along with comparisons of Revelation chapter 17 and 18:

Jer. 51: 7    compare with     Rev. 18: 3
Jer. 51: 8     "     "     Rev. 18: 2
Jer. 51: 9     "     "     Rev. 18: 5
Jer. 51: 13     "     "     Rev. 17: 15
Jer. 51: 45     "     "     Rev. 18: 4
Jer. 51: 48     "     "     Rev. 18: 20
Ish. 47: 1 - 15     "     "     Rev. 18: 7 - 11

May the Lord be gracious unto us and deliver us out of the hand of the enemy. As I was typing out the previous post that was sent, all of a sudden it dawned on me that I had a "dream" where I was typing out that very information to send it. Of course at the time of my dream I didn't think much about it until actually typing it to send to this group. It is interesting also that I almost didn't become a part of this group at all. I thought that all of you would return to Don's list to deal with the situation there and I felt a need, after being so frustrated about what was going on with that list, just to come away and seek the Lord and His will for me again. I believe that God wanted all of you to have this information. It is also interesting to me that the "first" topic that Jay suggested to discuss is "Babylon". I wasn't going to say these things, but just now I felt impressed by the Spirit of God to do so. May the Lord open our eyes and ears to the "time" in which we are now living.

God's Blessings to all of you,

...Jay, i think you are on to something when you talk about the beast and the world trade organization and monopolistic capitalism and stuff. there definately seems to be an emerging connection. but i guess we are all learning and i know that i am far from having all the answers. ...


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