Babylon Update
Hi Everybody,
This is just an update on what we have been discussing on Babylon and to
let you know that it is definitely going in a positive direction here.
Remember these things.
We are living in the last days and satan wants us to be completely
ignorant of who Babylon is and will put up all kinds of roadblocks to
distract us and get us to look into other directions. He will send those
to discourage us, lie to us with promises of other truths, we will be
insulted, reviled and every type of reason will be given to change the
subject and take us from bearing fruit on this issue. The most he can do
is to get us to ignore the issue and go on with business as usual, then
he has won. The most important thing for the church today in restoration
is to be able to first get out of Mystery Babylon the Great, so what we
are discussing is of immense importance to the end-time church. We
cannot remain in Babylon just for the sake of loving those that will not
come out. For those that who are not able to get out of her, there are
maledictions promised that we will be a part of her sins. You have to
know that this will ultimately happen and it will be sooner than later.
If the church cannot take it seriously, then God will send her a strong
delusion that she will believe a lie. I pray that this will not happen
to those of us on this list. Please take this seriously.
And get involved with the discussion. Don't be shy. Just e-mail me with
whatever. Those involved in the discussion do not yet have the answers,
so don't be afraid to question.
Now I have taken a much different direction on this issue as to how we
are discussing from those issues of the past. From the very beginning, I
have left it up to the discussion group and the Lord to give us answers.
If you follow the current discussion, the issue now is that of Babylon
as a nation or as a great city. Is it Rome or the U.S. or what? In my
way of thinking, both are alluded to and possibly Jerusalem is in this
as well.
Babylon is upon many waters and rides upon the beast that came out of
the sea which has four heads. The beast/heads of Daniel 7 are easy to
recognize just by looking at who they could be in the current world
political situation:
The only interpretation of who the bear could be is Russia.
The only interpretation as far as who the lion standing like a man could
be is England, this is a very easily recognizable symbol of England.
The only recognizable symbol of the eagle being plucked from the
standing lion would be the U.S.A.
The leopard is not as easy to recognize because I do not see it as a
national symbol like the rest of them, but to me, it would represent the
many spots that a leopard has and would represent a coalition of
nations. The only one I see that could fit in the current political
situation would be the European Union. These nations with the other
three beasts, comprise NATO and the bulk of the richest and most
powerful parts of the World Trade Organization. Again, these are the
interpretations that fit the current world situations and correspond to
the clear understanding of scripture. Babylon rides on them.
We must look at this issue through the eyes of one in the 21st century
and onto the current political, economic and religious situations and
only look to the past for some clarifications and the meaning of how we
got here. And we must be able to fit these situations into Bible
prophecy. The early Christians in the first century were all united in
thinking that the Lord would return in their lifetime and it was easy
for them to see Babylon as being the Roman Empire. Again, during the
Reformation period, the most logical culprit to the Protestants, who
would have naturally thought of restoration, would of been
ecclesiastical Rome. But we are not in the first or the sixteenth
century and cannot look at what these people thought during these times
as conclusive. They may however lead us to correct conclusions to the
present. The point is that the early Christians were wrong in thinking
that they were the last generation and so were the early Protestants.
This does not rule out Rome but it does rule out thinking that Babylon
is Rome just because others in the past said it was. Another thing is
that when the vision was given to John, he was seeing future events,
those things that looked like they were fulfilled in the past were
actually yet to come for him but given in the context of John being
transported into the future. So when five kings had fallen, it must be
taken from the time that John was transported to. Inotherwords, the
revelation of John must be taken in the context of "things which must be
hereafter", starting with the beginning of the church at the time of
John and ending with the Day of the Lord.
We may want to look at Rome with the evils of the Nicolaitan system of
separation of clergy and laity that the Protestants have continued with
to this present day as being part of Babylon. This is the correlation
between the Roman idea of church hierarchy as being continued with the
Protestants with fleshly Christian leadership instead of servants and
ministers in the church. It cannot be Rome unless the rest of the church
takes part in the guilt of what Papal Rome has originally stood for and
that is a system of exalting church leaders over others and diluting the
authority of Christ. We may want to discuss usury.
Rome is only part of the church and still one of the seven lights of
Asia. We may want to look at the church of Pergamos which dwells where
satan's seat is, they are said to hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
This is the church of Rome, what relation does Pergamos have with
Babylon, if any? They have still held fast to the name of Jesus and have
not denied the faith and even though they are told to repent, they are
still here unto the coming of the Lord or Jesus would not have told them
that He comes quickly. Also when Peter writes about those at Babylon,
was he writing from Rome? Maybe, but coming out of Rome and becoming a
Protestant, which can be worse, with their legalism, materialism and
puritan ignorance, makes no sense to me. There must be more.
Check out Revelation 17. The whore sits upon many waters and the kings
of the earth have committed fornication with her. Babylon sits on seven
mountains and Rome sits on seven hills but so does Jerusalem, for that
matter, so does San Francisco in the land of fruits and nuts. If they
are mountains and not hills, then what of the seven continents, would
that not also apply? If Babylon sits on many waters, how can Rome do
that unless she is many mountains on many waters? Now you see where my
mind goes. The hills of Rome do not sit on many waters unless it is only
figuratively speaking concerning its influence, but is not according to
the plain interpretion of scripture. Not that things in the Bible are
always plain but you get the idea. We know that the waters are many
peoples and tongues and nations and the Roman church is in every nation,
but does she reign over the kings of the earth? Not likely, for Rome
cannot be taken as the great economic power that the merchants of the
earth will lament over. She may be a religious power, but a military and
economic one? Not in my mind but I am listening and looking for more
answers from you.
We have many good things spoken of below: We need to pull out as many as
we can out of Babylon. Babylon as a city - some have spoken of New York
as the city with the stock market, the United Nations and the World
Trade center. The issue of Babylon being a mother and then being the
daughter of Babylon. Maybe Babylon is more of a world system like
monopolistic trade and the evils of capitalism, than actually a nation.
Anyway, we are certainly not ready to come out of her if we cannot yet
agree who she is. I believe that with the spirit of God working in our
hearts and minds that we will come up with the answers that are needed
and we are getting somewhere. But it takes all of us. Get back to me.
Jay.
Friend in Jesus,
Though we may identify who Babylon is and represents, it is my
understanding
of the Scriptures that these things may be fulfilled and will come to
fruition. How else can His GLORY be seen? How else can He be glorified
but by
the suffering of His saints? We are called out of Babylon, but just
like
satan when he is exposed, there are millions who will go down with him.
Such
is Babylon. She will take many with her. Part of my job as a Servant of
Jesus
Christ is to help pull out as many out of Babylon as I can while it is
still
day, before the night comes!! We must be watchful in prayer 24/7. Never
giving place to the devil. It is my intention to pullout as many as I
can.
Babylon will fall. It is inevitable. Praise God. The US is heading down
a
very dangerous path. I hope this is on target for someone out there.
Bless
His name.
Joseph
Hi Jay,
I pray to God that America is not Babylon! I don't idolize this
country, but
I do live here. In addition, I have a calling to help bring revival to
this
nation and am fully convinced it will happen. To what degree I am not
sure.
Along with her corruption, America has done much good also. I am not
convinced that she is Babylon. The Book of Revelation does say
specifically
that it is a city. Yet, I will give it further study. There are
similarities, yet some inconsistencies. There is something else it
could
be, but I will pray and do more research into the matter before
presenting
it.
Blessings,
GREETINGS GARY, AND THE REST OF THIS GROUP!
I must agree with you about Babylon...the Bible does identify it as a
"great city". The Greek word for "nation" (or nations) is mentioned 21
times in the book of Revelation. Babylon is mentioned only as "the
Great
City".
The words "great" and "city" in Greek (N.T.) is "megale" and "polis".
In
urbanization (since the late 60's) we have used the term
"megalopolis"-quoting from the Britannica Ency. it reads: "from the
ancient
Greek city of the Peloponnese the name of which meant Great City, the
term
proposed by the French geographer Jean Gottman to describe a very large
urban conglomeration." (vol.VI pg.754)
The study continues in Vol.18 pg.923: " In the unprecedented outward
sprawl
of urban settlement, the U.S. has created some novel settlement
forms...a
territorial coalescence of two or more good-sized cities whose
peripheral
zones have grown together...There are major examples in Great
Britain,West
Germany, as well as Japan...Nothing elsewhere, however, rivals in sheer
size
and complexity the aptly named Megalopolis, that Super-City of more
than
30,000,000 inhabitants stretching along the Atlantic Seaboard from
Southern
Maine to Central Virginia. Other great conurbations include, in the
great
lakes region, one centered on Chicago and containing large slices of
Illinois, Wisconsin, and Indiana; another based in Detroit, embrassing
large
parts of Michigan and Ohio and reaching towards Canada; and a third
stretching from Buffalo through Cleveland and back to Pittsburgh. All
three
are reaching out to one another and will shortly form another
megalopolis,
one that, in turn may soon be grafted onto the Seaboard megalopolis by
way
of a corridor through Central New York State." ( 1979 edition of
Britannica) As you can see, this description above is 20 years old. It
would be interesting to see what the progress of growth has been in
these
cities since.
National Geographic Magazine printed a supplement map in their July
1994
issue of the "Megalopolis" along the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S.
Another
interesting thing about this area of the States is that the United
Nations
is there representing more than 150 nations, and languages around the
globe,
not to mention the World Trade Center. All this taken together
definately
confirms that this is the area of the globe mentioned in Revelation. I
pray
that this group will give some careful, prayerful thought to this
information. It was revealed to me after many weeks of fasting and
prayer
to God that He would reveal "who" She was, if it was "time". This
study
came to me about 4 years ago.
There is much more that needs to be said concerning Revelation chap.17
and
I will be glad to give it to each one of you exactly as the Holy Spirit
revealed it to me, if you would be interested to know.
May the Lord continue to graciously lead each one of us into all of His
precious Truths for this time. IN Christ's Love,
To the group:
In defense of Jay's thinking concerning Babylon as a nation, I submit
the following. I copied it this
morning of Britannic Online, listed under "Supercities of the United
States":
"One of the few predictions that seem safe in a dynamic and innovative a
land as the United States
is that, unless severe and painful controls are placed on land use, the
shape of the urban
environment will be increasingly megalopolitan."
In other words, the super cities of the U.S. are sprawling so rapidly,
that one day there exists the
probability that the entire U.S. will consist of one megalopolis
reaching out, touching
another...forming "one giant megalopolis". Will this happen? Will God
permit time to go on long
enough for this to become a reality? God only knows, but it is
something that we must bear in
mind until other things occur that are predicted concerning her.
I will post the additional information I am putting together and I have
been enlightened about, this
evening. Let us all pray for God's wisdom and guidance concerning the
matter.
IN Christ's Love,
Thanks Ginny,
that was an awesome testimony Brian!
hmm well as far as i know the United Kingdom is one of
the most densly populated countries in the world.
probably five or ten times that of the USA. one thing
i love about America is how much space there is
everywhere, even on the east coast. sure a large area
is urbanised on the east coast but you have to go
right deep into the cities for the real urbanisation.
new york state is almost all rural. maryland has large
rural parts too. so virginia. london has around 8
million people within it. surrounding london to a
radius of 50 miles there is something like 25 million
people. yet you go on an airplane or train and even
all that area is mostly fields and forests.
well revelation describes a city on seven hills. there
are two cities which could qualify there. Rome and
Jerusalem. it is said to be the city which rules over
the kings of the earth. therefore Rome. it is said to
be drunk with the blood of martyrs. America has so far
been one of the most free countries on earth. not to
say that can't change. but it would have to go a long
way to catch up with other nations. babylon is
described as a harlot, whereas the true church is a
bride. therefore it is an apostate church system,
guilty of the blood of the saints, she is dressed in
purple and scarlet and centered on Rome. any guesses?
Jay you specifically asked that no one bring forward
this view so i never said anything. this has been the
view of christians throughout history, including
Wycliffe,Luther,Arminius,Wesley, and even some of
Joyner's tapes on church history and his book on the
Harvest touch on this. i have tons of info and links
if anyone is interested.
though the Roman church obviously has been the major
manifestation of this spirit, false babylon is seen
where-ever this spirit is. it is fundamentally the
religious spirit which exalts itself against the true
knowledge of God. to one degree or another most
protestant denominations have their roots more in
Babylon/Rome than in the New Jerusalem. this is
something that needs to be rooted out of all of us.
personally i think that a charismatic catholic who
loves the Lord is a lot less influenced by this spirit
than a self righteous religious dogmatic and exclusive
protestant.
Dean
Greetings to everyone in the group! I apologize for the delay, I wanted
to get this out to you earlier,
but I had to work with my husband today. I submit this prayerfully and
humbly to you for your
study. May God send His precious Spirit to open your minds and
enlighten your hearts concerning
this matter.
The Dragon: as mentioned in Revelation 12:3 & 9 which John saw in
vision, had 7 HEADS and 10
HORNS. The dragon is clearly identified as "the old serpent" (which
appeared to Eve), the devil,
which is also called satan. There is clearly also a "difference" in the
HEADS and HORNS. Both
are a "part" or a "system" of the devil - but mentioned here in such a
way as to cause us to study
them as separate systems.
In order to understand them we must see how they appear in their "given
time" in earth's history
(past & future).
The 7 HEADS (with 7 crowns on their heads):
The angel explains this system to John in Revelation 17: 9 - 11. These
verses tell us the following:
1.) The 7 HEADS are 7 "mountains", where the woman, identified as
"Mystery Babylon or the
"MOTHER Babylon" (see vs.5) is sitting.
2.) There are 7 kings.
3.) We are made aware that this "dragon system" existed during the
days of John because the
angel said to him, " 5 (kings) are fallen, and one is (reigning), and
the other is not yet come."
(vs.10)
4.) "the beast that "was"...even he IS the 8th, but is (a part) of the
7". In other words, the 8th - the
"beast" is a part of that same system that the 7 kings are in, appearing
at the same time in earth's
history.
Let's take each one of these above points and look at them in detail:
1.) Babylon (the MOTHER) sits on 7 "mountains". Since the New
Testament is translated from
the Greek language, looking at the Greek word gives us what the
"mountains" are. "mountains, as
lifting itself above the plain - hill". So this also means "hill".
Rome, during the time of John and the
early Christians sat on "7 hills".
2. & 3.) The ROMAN EMPIRE and it's 7 KINGS:
Caesar Augustus 27 B.C. - 14 A.D.
Tiberius 14 A.D. - 37 A.D.
Caligula 37 A.D. - 41 A.D.
Claudius I 41 A.D. - 54 A.D.
Nero 54 A.D. - 68 A.D.
Vespasian 69 A.D. - 79 A.D.
Titus 79 A.D. - 81 A.D.
Domitian 81 A.D. - 96 A.D.
The "Beast" which the angel said was the 8th, which followed Titus to
the throne of Rome was
Domitian. The ruler Domitian was known in history as the only Roman
ruler who's memory was
"officially damned" by Rome itself. He used very high-handed methods to
accomplish his desires.
For him, the body of the Senate in Rome existed merely to supply
imperial servants. He
demanded extravagant honors; he punished mercilessly any act of
disrespect, real or fancied
towards himself. He was suspicious and ruthless. It was a rulership of
tyranny; executions and
confiscations of property were frequent. He relished the title of "god"
and was known for his reign of
terror, especially against the Christians. He is the "type" of man who
appears again as the "beast"
at the end of time.
The 10 HORNS - 2nd system of the devil:
Revelation 17: 12-18 tells us about another "system" of the devil
(dragon) - the 10 HORNS - which
exist at the end of time. From these scriptures, we learn the
following:
1.) The 10 HORNS are 10 kings which were " futuristic". the angel
said to John , "they have
received no kingdom as yet."
2.) These 10 kings appear with another "beast" (which Rev. 13: 18
identifies him as a "man" with a
particular "number"). They all reign (receive power) "together" for
one hour.
3.) Rev. 17:13 tells us they act in harmony with one another and make
war with the Lamb (Jesus)
and His chosen, faithful people.
4.) Rev. 17: 15 & 18 clearly identifies Babylon, NOT as the MOTHER
harlot, but as "a whore", "a
woman", and "a great city".
5.) The 10 kings, along with the "beast" (the man) "hate the whore"
and burn her with fire; it is
God's will for them to accomplish this act of vengeance against her for
corrupting the "earth" with
her "influence".
Both Isaiah and Jeremiah write about this last day "Babylon". She is
called the "daughter of
Babylon". This study will be followed with the Bible texts concerning
the "daughter".
IN Christ's Love,
Greetings to all of you!
Since the Babylon that existed during the time of Rome was called the
"MOTHER" (Rev. 17: 5)
and another Babylon exists at the end of time, it would seem logical
that she should be called the
"daughter" in order to make a distinction between the two in scripture.
If not, there would be no way
of "sorting" which Babylon is being spoken about. God is so WISE and
reveals His plans to those
who love Him that they may be aware of the time and that they do not
suffer along with the "wicked"
who have no regard for Him as their Creator; nor count as any value the
blood of Christ that would
save them from eternal loss.
It is no coincidence that Jeremiah tells Seraiah that after he reads all
the Words (from God) to
Babylon, Seraiah was to take the book the Words were written in, bind
them to a stone and cast
them into the Euphrates and say, "thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not
rise from the evil that I will
bring upon her." (Jer. 51 : 63,64)
We find a very similar occurrence in Revelation 18:21. We see the
mighty angel which has just
spoken the Words of God to last-day Babylon, take up a stone, casting it
into the sea saying, "thus
with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down."
The Empire of Babylon which existed during the days of Isaiah and
Jeremiah was the "original"
Babylon, though there are many references concerning "the daughter of
Babylon". These
prophecies are clearly for another Babylon other than the Empire.
Another text: "One post shall run to meet another, and one messenger to
meet another, to show
the king of Babylon that his CITY is taken at one end." (Jer. 51: 31
Notice here that the prophecy
is concerning a CITY called Babylon as is mentioned in Rev. 17: 18 and
NOT the kingdom of
Babylon.
"The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor, it is time to thresh
her: yet a little while, and the
time of her harvest shall come." Jer. 5l: 33
"Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the
ground, O daughter of the
Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender & delicate." ( In
the Dictionary, anyone who
practices sorcery or astrology is called a "Chaldean"). Revelation 18:
23 says of the last-day
Babylon, "for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."
There is" global "recognition of her destruction: "At the noise of the
taking of Babylon the earth is
moved, and the cry is heard among the nations." Jer. 50 : 46
The following is a list of scriptures from Isaiah and Jeremiah along
with comparisons of Revelation
chapter 17 and 18:
Jer. 51: 7 compare with Rev. 18: 3
May the Lord be gracious unto us and deliver us out of the hand of the
enemy. As I was typing out
the previous post that was sent, all of a sudden it dawned on me that I
had a "dream" where I was
typing out that very information to send it. Of course at the time of
my dream I didn't think much
about it until actually typing it to send to this group. It is
interesting also that I almost didn't
become a part of this group at all. I thought that all of you would
return to Don's list to deal with the
situation there and I felt a need, after being so frustrated about what
was going on with that list,
just to come away and seek the Lord and His will for me again. I
believe that God wanted all of you
to have this information. It is also interesting to me that the "first"
topic that Jay suggested to
discuss is "Babylon". I wasn't going to say these things, but just now
I felt impressed by the Spirit
of God to do so. May the Lord open our eyes and ears to the "time" in
which we are now living.
God's Blessings to all of you,
...Jay, i think you are on to something when you talk
about the beast and the world trade organization and
monopolistic capitalism and stuff. there definately
seems to be an emerging connection. but i guess we are
all learning and i know that i am far from having all
the answers. ...
Dean
April 3, 2000
Ap77joseph@cs.com
Gary P.
Ginny
Ginny
- John the Baptist was be-headed by Rome. Under the reign of Augustus
Jesus was born in
Bethlehem; Herod, a Roman ruler sought to take His life "as soon as He
was born". Revelation 12:
3 - 5 clearly says this "power" with the 7 HEADS was present when
Christ was about to be born
into the world.
- Under the reign of Tiberius Jesus Christ was crucified by Rome. Roman
historian, Cornelius
Tacitus wrote about Christ's crucifixion.
- Caligula was the nephew of Tiberius. The word "circus" in it's origin
is usually traced to the
circuses and amphitheaters of Rome. The torture of Christians was an
added attraction at the
"Circus Caligula". Alot of these exhibitions were also presented in
Romes great amphitheaters.
Caligula became "insane" after less than a year, even though he
continued to rule until he was
assassinated in 41 A.D.
- Under the reign of Claudius, the apostle Paul was imprisoned and James
was executed.
- Nero executed many of the early Christians. He falsely accused the
Christians of starting the
"great fire of Rome" in 64 A.D., which caused them to be hated even
more bitterly.
- It was during the reign of Vespasian that John was exiled to the
island of Patmos. While there,
he received his visions of Revelation. As John was seeing the vision ,
he was told by the angel, " 5
have fallen, one IS reigning. This was the 6th - Vespasian. In 70 A.D.
it was Vespasian that gave
his son Titus orders to conquer the Jews and Jerusalem, and it is
estimated that more than 1
million Jews were destroyed.
- The angel said to John, "the other ( the 7th), has not yet appeared,
and when he does arrive he
must stay but a brief time." (Rev. 17:10). The reign of Titus only
lasted 2 years, a "brief time" as
predicted.
- The angel said, "but as for the "beast" ... he is the 8th (ruler) ".
Ginny
Jer. 51: 8 " " Rev. 18: 2
Jer. 51: 9 " " Rev. 18: 5
Jer. 51: 13 " " Rev. 17: 15
Jer. 51: 45 " " Rev. 18: 4
Jer. 51: 48 " " Rev. 18: 20
Ish. 47: 1 - 15 " " Rev. 18: 7 - 11
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