Ocotober 29, 2001

When the LORD turned again the captivity of Zion, we were like them that dream. Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The LORD hath done great things for them. The LORD hath done great things for us; whereof we are glad. Turn again our captivity, O LORD, as the streams in the south. They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him. Psalms 126

There is a new day coming. As we go forth with the freedom that comes with new found knowledge and fellowship, we go with gladness, singing and shouts of joy. Travail is not a new thing, our new thing is the unity of finally coming together in the love expected of the people of God. Our tears of sorrow are for those that we have to leave behind, our tears of joy are of the gladness of what we see ahead. Dare to dream of this new day. Dare to be joyful in spite of the sorrows and trials and vicissitudes of life. This is the answer to getting the church to change. God will bless us so abundantly that we will be irresistible to others. They change because we have changed, we will have that victory in Christ that shows itself in signs and wonders as we dare to dream and have the faith to know it is coming. This is our hope, this is our power, this is the abundant life. Jump for joy, sing a glad song, make a joyful noise - the Bridegroom is coming.

How are you feeling today? This has been the main thrust of the discussions this time in that we should trust our feelings. We do not change the church, we being the church change ourselves and we become an example to others. God has given us the witness of His Holy Spirit. Do you feel it? When He touches you, it confirms the fact that He is there, it is not mere emotionalism, it is the awareness that God is revealing Himself to us. Respond to Him, seek Him out and pray to know His perfect will for you. It is a witness that proves itself in love but there are other emotions as well. God wants every part of us and that includes our emotions, the fruits of the spirit, mercy and compassion. Is He convicting you of sin? Repent of it. Does He lead you into the travail for the church? Yield to it and join with others in that sorrowful assembly. Do you feel compassion for others? Pray for them and do what you can to meet their needs. Are you humbled to the point of disgust? Look up, your redemption is nigh. Do you "feel" led to do certain things? Within reason, follow that feeling. Each of you that have been baptized in the Holy Spirit knows exactly how it felt that first time. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not upon your own understanding.

It must be emphasized though that feelings must be turned into right actions to have any effect on the church. Our adversary the devil would like nothing more than have us take our joy into excess and counterfeit our emotions. Laughter into hysteria, dreams into delusions, love into covetness, obedience into legalism, serenity into apathy. There are many examples of charismatic excess that has been used as bad examples against us yet on the other hand, there has been too much conservative faith to have any effect. The Lord will bring us into that holy place as we listen to Him and respond to His leading.

Again, an abundance of excellent responses.

Enough said on convincing an errant church. We are the church; it is up to us.

For this next time, I would like to bring up a subject that is dear to my heart - Islam. I have a page on Allah that gets good feedback from some and hate mail from others. My page on Abraham is focused on Ishmael and Isaac. I have to admit that there has not been a single positive letter sent to me from a Muslim concerning my views on reaching out to Muslims. It was brought up in a vision of Dave Howe that I would like to carry on here, what I wrote is below in the responses about half way down. The essence is that the two sons of Abraham would eventually unite but only one sect of Islam will come in. I have felt this way for many years. Since we are on the subject of emotions, this is obviously a very sensitive issue right now and will elicit heated negative emotions in the light of current events. For the record, I have felt that Mohammed was sent by God to unify Islam and fulfill the promises given to Ishmael but his exposure to Christians was from misled Gnostic sources. Feel free to disagree with that. I believe that there will be a final Imam to come that will take upon himself the role of an Elijah to come. I also believe that the Christian church will have to repent for the sins of the Crusaders and the prejudice toward both Muslims and Jews before any restitution is possible.

Have at it, let love be our guide.


Jay, regarding, Speaking the same things, and Lack of repentance of the people.

We and the Holy Father are fighting a spiritual warfare. Are these times any different than the days of Noah, or the days of Moses preaching repentance and obedience to the unbelieving Israelites? Does repentance seem impossible and farfetched right now? Zechariah 8:6 asks us, "Even if this should seem impossible in the eyes of the remnant of this people, shall it in those days be impossible in MY eyes also, says the Lord of hosts?" As well Luke 1:37 tells us, "Nothing is impossible with God." You asked, is there something we can do? I ask, can we make a united, indestructible stand against the principalities and powers, the rulers of this world of darkness, the evil spirits and their ruler satan. Yes we can because nothing is impossible with God.

Joel 2:1 tells us," Blow the trumpet in Zion, sound the alarm on My holy mountain!" Here is how to fight a spiritual battle obtained straight from our own Great Leader, Jesus Christ's, Word:

  1. Through our own repentance of our sins. Joel 1:13
  2. Through vigils of prayer. Joel 1:13
  3. Joel 1:14 tells us that through fasting in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Not a public display of fasting but a private fasting known only by you and the Holy Father.
  4. call for a gathering for a communal prayer. These prayers are to be concerned with repentance of our sins, which includes forgiving other people of their sins that they commit against us as well, remember the Our Father Prayer? Ask Jesus to open up all the people of the worlds eyes, ears, minds, hearts, and every available sense that we have as human beings. Why, to cause every human being on the face of this earth and in purgatory to repent of their sins and to STOP our sins. Also to cause massive conversions, lasting and eternal conversions to our Lord Jesus Christ. Beg Jesus and the Holy Spirit for a grateful, contrite, and repentant heart for all sinners. Who among us has not sinned?
  5. Do this daily or for the rest of our lives as often as we can, do not stop.
Pope John Paul II tells us the Lord wants to cause millions of conversions of people, both multigenerational and multinational. Already in some lands the Holy Father has drawn millions to himself, there are millions more being drawn right now. John 12:32 tells us,"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Can we fight along side our Holy Father, the Greatest Warrior there will ever be? Can we support our Lord and King? Can we help turn the tide of this spiritual warfare for the better of mankind, and in honor of and gratefulness for Jesus Christ death and ascension? Also remember, Jesus Father loved us so much that He sent His only begotten son to provide eternal life for us.

Luke 1:37 "Nothing is impossible with God

Thank You
Mom's blue pen

Hi all,

If we are going to find out what is needed to "convince an errant church that they need to change", our current question, we had better be sure where we are standing in the first place as individuals, are we standing in truth or error?

For the last few days I have been avoiding putting a contribution together, because I knew I would have to face up to a few things, be ready to be or go or do as my Lord asks, and there is this one area that scares me, my interior rebels: Lord, do you want me to go back to that church where it all went wrong? I have to be ready to hear, and then I have to be ready to obey. Really scary.

Always in our discussion we leave room for love, we have talked about it, we have dissected it up into different areas and stuck labels on it, we have noticed where it is missing, we have remarked when it seemed to be present, we have elevated it to a grand place confident that we are in God's will when we declare it as the most important thing to understand, the crux of the New Testament message. But have we loved in practice? Have we applied what we have learned? Have we been confident we have understood it and yet in our personal lives failed to do those things which the love of God in us presses us to do? If this is the case we need look no further to discover where we stand: we stand firmly in error.

Very many of us have removed ourselves from the error that we have observed, that we have become victims of or partakers in, in our separate fellowships: we have fought a long hard fight for what we know is right. I have been heaving a sigh of relief for long enough. I have breathed in the clean air and quenched my thirst with the pure water. I am feeling it is time now to roll up my sleeves and get to work, there is a lot to do.

If there is going to be any convincing of error, large or small scale, The Church capital "C" or individual fellowships within, or between ourselves as individuals in the Lord, it can only be done in and through and with the love of God, not as a wonderful theory, but as a realistic practical move. Are we ready to say, "Whatever it takes, Lord"? Are we ready to lose ourselves in love for each other?

I looked again at Matt.7, vv 21-23 " Not every one that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It is the "Depart from me" that clangs that final bell: but the hammer is ever poised in the preceding words, "I never knew you". All of our failed relationships, all of our personal agendas, all of our lives poured out in ministry that didn't start at the feet of Jesus, all of our theories and religious alternatives, all swept aside with the words "I never knew you". Lord, you know all things! But "I never knew you".

There is a deep intimacy in "knowing" in this sense, a perfect union, a perfect expression of oneness of purpose, it is summed up in love. To know God is to know love. To be known of God is to live and breathe and walk in His love, allowing Him full access to all our lives consist of, inside and out, going where He leads, no stone left unturned. Even back into that church if necessary. Oh, Lord, help! Loving one another like He commands. Intimacy. Openness. Forgiveness. Tenderness. Humility.

If I am to go back in; if we are to go back in collectively taking with us the goodness of God that leads to repentance, being instruments of reconciliation, we will have to get it right between us first. We will have to know our unity in ways well beyond theory and concept, we will have to have it in our hands. We have seen the plans and glimpsed the foundations, and the whole structure will rest upon what we lay down first.

When we came out of Babylon we lacked one important thing: each other. Brethren, if I am required to go back in somehow, I cannot do it without you. I do not think now that our meeting was a solution, or an end in itself: more like a real beginning of what we have been called to do. It makes sense of all the other things we have been through, and are going through. Have I got it wrong? Is anyone hearing the same thing?


Hi everybody,

I have been having to face a few things also like Mary mentions here. One is the burnout that I have been feeling. It is better today, cooled down some I suppose. Things will not be getting better either, I have to just try to make things better on my end, same issues, obedience or rebellion, working hard at making things easier. Initial effort pays off in the long run but well said in the question if we have applied what we have learned.

The difference of love in theory and love in practice is a valid argument for putting our own house in order. I guess that this is the message for this time in that it is still all about doing what we can first to be in the Lord's will before we can ask others to follow. We may never really know what it is that sets the world right side up or restores the temple of the Lord or what unites a divided church. Take out the beam in our eyes and then we can see clearly the speck in our brothers and sisters eyes. Is it really that simple? I guess so. Who am I to argue?

Sorry, no cutting edge prophetic revelations, no pearls of wisdom or mountain top experiences to relate. Just a profound feeling that we are to set the paths straight that generations before us have made crooked. Maybe we do not need to worry about the paths behind us and only make our own paths straight as we go, "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before..."

It is so upon my heart to have that oneness of purpose, convincing of error, the perfect union through love. But why a nobody like me to be included in such a company of believers? Are the very ones that think that they are capable of coming into this singleness, the very ones that are not known by Him? Are we to be so among the least of the brethren that we are nothing at all except in the eyes of God? When Lord? Only You are worthy. When does the vindication come? Do we wait for the next life to reign as priests and kings? We are told that now but it has not happened for me. I am to whiten my own robes in the blood of the lamb? How am I to love others when I cannot even love myself?

Well, I am not ready. I want to be ready and I can say that we are ready, but there is in me a spirit of disobedience that precludes any feeling of worthiness to be among such a distinguished company. The closer to redemption, the higher our heads should be but I am still downcast. Not for the church this time but for me. It sounds stupid but I am ashamed to be me, no smiles today. No praise songs, it is the blues again. Reconcile with confusion? Mend broken fences that I did not break? Taking upon the sins of others is pretty hard when you are encumbered with your own. I am praying for you all, please pray for me.

Luke 14:34.---' Salt is good: But if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be seasoned?'

Here, in this immediate teaching, The Master brings common salt into this mystic fellowship, and no disciple would ever handle salt again without passing through its material portal into a secret of the Spirit.

' If the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be seasoned?' This warning is given by Matthew also, but it is placed by him in the Sermon on the Mount [v. 13]. It is given by Mark after the Transfiguration [v. 50]. It is quite probable that the words were spoken by our Lord on three different occasions, and that in each case there was a slight difference in thought.

We are inclined to feel that a Christian profession is itself effective; that simply to take the name of Christian is itself somehow to exert a good influence in the world. Jesus held the precise opposite. In the words, ' If the salt have lost its savor . . . it is from now on good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men,' He expresses His estimate of the value of a merely nominal Christianity. It is good for nothing except to be rejected and despised. The world agrees with Christ in His estimate of the worthlessness of merely nominal religion. It also rejects and despises it.

But some who will not maintain that the name of Christian carries with it the power of Christianity still cling to the thought that outwardly respectable conduct is enough to give one the power of a Christian in the world. The words of Jesus are opposed to this thought also. The salt that has lost its savor looks like salt, but it has no power; it is fit for rejection and contempt.

Christ's warning here in the gospels does not stand alone. There is an exact parallel in the epistle to the Church at Sardis. ' I know thy works' is the heartrending censure of the angel of the Church, ' that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead . . . If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a theif, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.'

' A name that thou livest,' ' but thou art dead.'

But from the midst of the menaces love speaks. The Sardis angel is to go back and begin again. Like Christian in the Pilgrim's Progress, after his slumber he may grope his way once more to the place of loss, and find his vanished treasure, and clasp it to his heart, and watch over it there. How glad will his Lord be if he does! But if not---' I will come as a thief,' in an hour unknown, on a sudden, to sentence and to bid thee go.

Where are the Churches of Asia Minor, the patriarchies of Alexandria, of Antioch, of Constantinople; the whole of that early Syrian, Palestinian Christianity; where are they? Where is the Church of North Africa, the Church of Augustine? ' Trodden under foot of men!' Over the archway of a mosque in Damascus you can read the half obliterated inscription:---' Thy Kingdom, O Christ, is an everlasting Kingdom.' And above it:---"There is no God but God, and Mohammed is His prophet!" The salt has lost his savor, and been cast out.

Let us listen to the love, and to the warning. We have a Master unspeakably generous and benignant. But because His love is holy it implies an awful intolerance---not of fears, doubts, failures, but of unreality.

In Christ, Timothy.


Greetings and salutations my dearly loved brothers in the faith.

My brain is racked with pain, once again you have written an awesome letter through the holy ghost, glory to his name. On Christ the solid Rock we stand, all other ground is sinking sand. If we as people truly serving him would stand on this, problems would be less im sure. The church has reached a point where they say they are praising God but in retrospect they are really praising man if we could stop giving man glory. How can you glorify God and man in the same service? It is to no advantage for the church to glorify man, we have to realize that this flesh if glorified becomes stingy and now lots of brothers/sister who are stewards in the church should not be in that position. One way of dealing with a luke warm church is removing those who do not belong in those positions. But titles have become peoples, God is a respecter of no person, some think these titles mean something, to HIM they mean nothing. We must continue in the book of JOHN 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTON SON FOR WHO SO EVER BELIVED IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. I know that Jesus did not come into the world to condemn it but to bring conviction, and conviction is something that the church needs. So what do we do, we do not attend church when a particular preacher is preaching on a certain day. Don't want to feel that conviction or we have that preacher removed, man should not decide when a particular chosen one of god is to be out of the pulpit. The church is to busy running away from god's blessings, he wants us to hear those convicting messages so we can mature in the faith so we can put away childish things and start to praise GOD in the fullness of His Glory. Too much talk in the church and not enough praise, He says in season and out of season we are to praise HIM. Prayer and never ceasing, Philippians 4:8 FINALLY BRETHREN WHATEVER IS TRUE,WHAT EVER IS HONERABLE,WHATEVER IS RIGHT.


Hey there,

I did read the posts that others have submitted, we aren't stupid, are we? most of us are there where God wants us, which is all to His Glory, from reading and thinking, i get this:

Where two or more are together in my Name, I am amongst them, (and that to bless)

The other verse that seems to crop up is Even the elite of God will be deceived, (if that were possible)

so in there is where we would start a battle, perhaps, Jesus warned us that when He returns, it isnt for peace but for war, mother against son, father against daughter, brother against brother, sorting the sheep from the goats, those who cannot or refuse to see the truth of these end days will die, even some within the church will fall away, the first shall not be last and the last shall not be first to unite a church a bride, to her Groom, a painstaking task, but not all up to us, i think, we shall be willing, even unto the death, but the Lord shall finish the work, that He began, for He is the Alpha, the Omega, and the Rock of Ages in between

He sees the End from the Beginning, and we are warned that the devil is in the details, i truly believe that after the last outpouring of The Holy Spirit, the people will come together, unified under the Lord Jesus Christ, as His Bride, and from there, satan is short for the abyss he came from, the final, the hardest test, then, to stay where we are put, until Jesus finishes the battle, and we are victorious in The God of Our Salvation

Let him who has eyes, see,
Let him who has ears, hear,

unless a man be born of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven

i have seen long strong christians fall away, and spiritual infants ride victorious in Jesus after trials that would slay older members, i believe that the Lord tests each individual before the last unity that makes the bride, and the bride as the people are tested as a group, before Jesus receives her.

Jesus asks in Revelation: Will I find faith on the earth? (When he returns)
i for one would like to think so, since God tells us 2/3'rds of the peoples of the earth repent before Him. armed with this knowledge, i seek those who God sends out, those who have ears to hear, that they might hear His Word and then spread it to those who haven't heard Jesus well, that's another review of the church to come?
i hope it makes sense, i tend to think aloud

I think that people gets sidetracked too much on what is going on in the world today. We should be getting back to basics, ie do what Jesus wants us to do in the first place. Our job is to change the world by means of introducing people to Him, not trying to be clever and figure out where we are in the end times, Jesus said that only the Father knows of the hour. It does not take a genius to figure out that we are indeed in the end times. I cannot understand why people get into arguments regarding whether the USA is the bible's Babylon or not. In the end it is not whether who's who, but the danger is that some people might be left behind due to these arguments. Our job is to preach the word! (remember the parable of the 10 virgins!)


Willem Heyneke

In my humble opinion one of the avenue of 'speaking the same thing' is if all Christians would include each other's history and journey in the Body of Christ. I have been using "The New Revised Standard Bible" which includes 'The Book of The Apocrypha". Shortly, I pray I will be able to acquire 'The Armenian Holy Bible' which includes certain books that are not in the Catholic nor the Protestant Bibles. The Catholic and the Protestant bibles are written in the writing style from a Western slant or viewpoint. The Armenian Holy Bible is written in the writing style from a Eastern slant or viewpoint. I believe we Christians regardless of our denominations need to look at 'The Holy Bible' from a 3D - 3 dimensional angle. My viewpoint is not to be taken personally against the 'The Holy Bible' written in the writing style of a Western slant or viewpoint. But to learn why our East Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters 'The Holy Bible' is written in the writing style from a Eastern slant or viewpoint? To learn our East Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters history and cultural experiences that would allow them to include and accept certain books in their 'The Holy Bible'; that we Westerns (Catholics and Protestants) have chosen not include in ours?
Thank you and God bless,

You say "po-tay-to"

Hi all - Jay, Linda, Ed, Stephen, Hans, etc.: Brethren!

I seem to have irritated a few by my use of words, preferring to call "being renewed in knowledge" "being wrong", I know why this is and it isn't important. But in my heart I feel have only communicated that we need to be sitting in judgement upon each other, picking holes in each others' differences in order to discover what is right. I am certain I didn't say that, but somehow I seem to have communicated it, so apologies. Nothing is further from the truth. It really doesn't matter to me what the differences are in terms of doctrine, intellectual viewpoint, or other religious perspective. But it does matter to me a great deal that we divide ourselves over issues such as this, when we belong to each other and are called as one in the Lord. In amongst our individual Christian perspectives, if I can go by what I find to be present in me, is a certain amount of error which I would rather not entertain, and I know it isn't only me who has it. I am suggesting that we could do with taking a more active role in each other's Christian walk by developing a sense of responsibility for each other, that we would care enough about each other not to see another overtaken in a fault, and also not being afraid to confess our faults to each other, as it says in the Word. I see Ed what you mean about fearing that others will abuse this trust, past experience shouts "idiot!" as I find myself trusting and wanting to be trusted like this again. But hey! Time is short - I am allowed to poke the fire a bit, who will get the next log?

Yes Linda my sister, I know what you are saying that God gives more grace, and so we say nothing. Perhaps I am suspicious that we could imagine that it is grace that keeps us silent, when possibly it is something else like laziness (me, Lord), fear (me, Lord), lack of love (me, Lord again) or selfishness or pride or lack of discernment or goodness loads of things, and I could find them all right here in my interior. If I wait until I am perfect to care about my neighbour, I am in for a few bitter disappointments ahead.

2 Sam 11 and 12 contain the saddest story of David's falling and displeasing the Lord with his plan to procure Bathsheba for himself, and how God sent Nathan the prophet to tell him about it. How was it that, a man after God's own heart, David could somehow imagine that this plan could be justified? And, sadder still, how could he having carried out his plan believe himself to be someone who would be outraged to the point of avenging action on account of the man whose little lamb and precious treasure had been taken? He had come fully that far in transgression to the point of being hardened by the deceitfulness of his own sin. I speak very clumsily here but I think you know what I am saying. We must not allow ourselves to imagine that we can stand alone, in case we fall. I am sure David regretted ever more not having had someone to trust with his feelings before he began to take the first sinful steps that resulted in so much misery, and separation from God.

Some will say, "yes, but we have the Holy Spirit, and He will guide us into all truth". I do not think we will hear the Holy Spirit if we are determined not to listen for Him speaking through our brethren, and I do not think it is His wish that we should remain so distant from each other, so unaware of each others' needs and the part we each play in them. In that fabulous chapter of 1 Cor. 12, verse 26 says "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." I am coming to the conclusion that this is not sentimental, cryptic or clever, it is true. There are many kinds of suffering: injustice is one; sin is another. Are we perhaps a little out of practice in offering support in the latter? If we showed ourselves a little more honestly, would others who suffer alone find it easier to ask for help?

If we believe that growth in the Spirit is purely vertical, i.e., between us as individuals and God, there is a danger we might believe ourselves already ascended to a lofty place from where we may look down upon others. My current awareness of the latest big move in the Spirit, you may disagree, is that it is horizontal, i.e., spreading out between us, breaking down the walls, joining us together and uniting us as one. I am not a big thinker, I am a mother, a wife and a gardener. I may have it all wrong - please feel free to point out my error.

Love, mud and guts!

Re: You say "po-tay-to"

Dearest Mary,
I think perhaps we are speaking of two separate Joinings -- which are happening simultaneously... :)

There is the corporate union of the many faceted and glorious expressions of the reality of the "One Body" in Christ --AND there is the individual joining of the members of that one body, one to another -- and the Divine Relationship which exists between the individual members.

I speak of the corporate joining -- and the seeing and receiving of a increased knowledge of Jesus Christ (growing in the Grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ) which is made possible by seeing this "Corporate Joining" from the Heavenly perspective. In this context, what I see is that the diversity in religious convictions between all true followers of Jesus Christ, are not a deterrent -- are not a "right" or "wrong" issue -- but are really an expression of how much *bigger* Jesus Christ is than what our own little 'denominational bias' has presented Him to be.

It is in this context that I have tried to express the effects (at least on my heart) of what I believe is the "renewal in knowledge" process -- which effectively removes the "them" and "us" attitude from my own understanding of the Church. I no longer look upon the other branches of the Vine as being 'wrong' -- but rather as having preserved an essential and important facet of the reality of a much 'bigger' Christ than I knew. Each branch, I believe, has preserved a unique facet of Him (a facet which they believe is the "whole truth" of course) but for my ongoing growth purposes - each contributes to me an important facet which I lacked in my own limited denominational understanding. I see this understanding of the Church truly does cause me to grow in my knowledge of Jesus Christ -- for Love has caused me to let down the 'walls' (the "them and us" walls) that I might receive all that the Body has preserved of the Faith that was handed down from the apostles.

Yet on the practical level of personal fellowship (which I think you are more concerned with Mary) this daily interaction between believers is a natural flow of the Spirit among us.. and is Love's work through us, to us. Where Koinonia of the Spirit is, the Love-bonding between the saints is the 'good soil' of the truthing that naturally occurs.

David had relationship with Nathan and from that place of relationship, David could hear what the Spirit had to say through Nathan. It was Nathan's 'job' as 'priest' to speak to the spiritual issues of David's life...they both knew this. Through Christ, Nathan had been given the means to speak into David's life and in obedience to the prompting and the manner determined by the Spirit (appropriate to David's own heart) Nathan obeyed and was an instrument through whom deliverance was sent.

The Spirit does, through relationship and fellowship, open the door for us to speak words of correction in Love to one another. We don't have to focus on this aspect of our divine relationship, taking it upon ourselves as our 'calling' (as many actually do in the church) to point out anyone's shortfallingness (for we all fall short of the Glory of God), but rather trusting instead, that this is the promised working out of soterion in our lives. Scripture promises: 'We "have been" delivered, we "are being" delivered and we shall continue "to be delivered" in the future of all our sin-sickness! Yet, if in the course of this promised deliverance, the Spirit of God makes the opportunity for us to speak into another's life, we often in complete innocence, speak words of Love's conviction, which will expose (to the heart of the other -- as it was in David's heart) their own unrighteousness -- and the Spirit does a good work in each of us, just as He has promised.

All this is very natural though, and is just the Spirit being Himself through each of us - for the sake of each of us. If this is not a "give and take" flowing both ways, I would question the source ... for I see the Spirit uses each of us, both directions, in this "mutual" edification process -- so that none of us begins to feel like we alone are the sinners being saved. This further increases the Love bonding between the saints.

So, I hope this little sharing has not further muddied the waters... :) Love covers a multitude of sins too... that is another facet of Christ that we are growing in the Grace of.

Yours/His forever,

Jay, first, Praise God that you have some work, even if it does squeeze you a bit. we understand, especially those of us unemployed.

In answer to your question about what it will take to convince an errant church? It will, for sure, take an understanding of the following concept ...Luke 10:22 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

... that is to say CHRIST and CHRIST ALONE is our salvation. I believe that we as a nation, as a culture, & as a faith, want to desperately create the broadest road possible to eternity in God, but apparently without Christ, and with the most minimal criteria possible ... so that we do not have to commit to anything that in any way alters our lifestyles, priorities, and status. Forbid that we speak the name of Jesus in public or be known as literal interpreters. I know that it is not at all easy to keep our faith because the world so often is at odds with our serenity ... because Satan is alive ... and we must endure the consequences of our choices. It is a narrow road, and only a few will pass.

YBIC, Sean

Dear Jay and friends

In the last few years i have studied multiple facets or denominations of christianity. Studied as much of church history I could find. each group and each era seems to be lacking in something. Each era has a few mighty warriors that seem to fade or even become enemies of the cross. Each reformation seems to die out and become stale.

Then the beliefs on the Revelations is so wide and varied its mind boggling. As I look at this spectacle, I wonder. How can this be? We have the Word of G_d now, well at least in the rich countries. we are suppose to have the same Spirit. Same Father Same Jesus. there is not that much discrepancy in our different translations. i have noticed that there seems to be a few arising from this confusion all saying one thing deny your self take up your cross. Jesus is the Way the Truth the Life. Others mimick these words for they can be copied. Very few live it. G_d is looking for those that will give every thing to him. Not to their own ministry. their own beliefs that they add to the Bible. for now many may be able to lead G_ds people to what is false. when all is said and done our King and Judge will judge the quick and the dead. all that is a lie will be burned and only truth shall remain.

It continuely comes back to does he know us? He said to the virgins who were not ready (I know you not.) He says to those who did things in his name. Depart from me you workers of iniquity (I Know you not.) You can know all about our LOrd and still not know him.

G-d will do the final judging. I am glad for that, it brings me peace to know that he judges all in truth, with mercy. my doctrine has not changed much but my eyes for my savior has changed immensely. when my heart was dark i began to look to ministries or, my spirituality. the greatest christian on the face of the earth and in heaven pales before my L_rd Jesus(Y_shuah) there is no other way. There is no other truth. There is no other life than in him. G_d did not die just to save mankind. He died to bring them into fellowship with him. He will have his family. He will have his bride. He will probably have mercy on many who did not go all the way with him. He has come to build him a family. From sinner to bride by the blood of the lamb.

and they sang the song of Moses the servant of G_d and the song of the Lamb. He died for the joy set before him. We to can endure or even die for the joy set before us. Press on into the high calling. the high calling is even better than just a Kingdom but it being one with G_d. we could have no better. I do not want to be G_d just one with him. No one in heaven or earth could hold our Universe together but Father G_d Christ Jesus (Y_shuah) and G_d Holy Spirit. Our spirits cry Abba Father. Our spirits cry come L_rd Jesus.




When this came I said to myself - What ? - This goes against what is happening in the natural - Am I hearing right - But here goes.

I am writing it as it comes.

I think this would have to do with far future.

Esau and Jacob reunited - Children of the Lord one - The dividing wall of the generations broken down - For they will see that they have the same father.

Ishmael and Isaac - Arab and Jew have the same father Abraham.

Hate and mistrust will turn to love - Restitution will be made.

That - Those which was sent away will be reunited.

The veil of Islam - Of religion will be broken.

For they will beat their spears into ploughs - For the day is coming when they will train for war no more.

For they will embrace as blood brothers with the Lord as their head.

Dave Howe

I would like to respond to Dave's post, vision of the blood brothers. I have getting a lot of flack lately about having a page on my site concerning Allah. I am getting earnest questions as well as hate mail. It sounds funny but there has been pretty unanimous consensus between Christians, Muslims and pagans alike that I am misled in my thinking. That's not the type of unity I am looking for. I have had thoughts about taking that page down or redoing it completely to reflect what others are saying about Allah being a false god. Then I do get some others encouraging me and confirming what I had always thought, that Allah and the Old Testament El or Eloi (My God) were One in the Same.

My desire has been to reach out to the Muslims for many years. For a time, I attended an Islamic temple, not as a Muslim convert but as a Christian wanting to know more about them. I have read the Koran and even quote it from time to time, I find agreement as well as inconsistencies. I am not a judge of these matters as to inspiration but I had believed Mohammed to be the prophet to unify the Arabs in order to fulfill God's promises to the descendants of Ishmael.

I had read somewhere in the Koran something like that there would be many different sects of Islam but in the end only one would prevail. The only ones in our minds that could end up being the Lord's would be the ones that accept Jesus. I had taught that you would not have to deny Mohammed to be able to accept Jesus. Those "of the book" or the sons of Abraham would one day be unified as part of the restitution of all things, that includes Moslems, Jews and Christians.

Of course this is heresy to many, especially now that there is a Jihad against Christians.

Personally, I think that I should remain faithful to the idea that Muslims are children of Father God and only false in the same sense that many Christians are also false. Much of the animosity have been since the Crusades and when Christians thought that we should wipe out both Jews and Moslems.

Anything else on this from anyone here as to if I should give up or carry on? Or do you think that I am just wasting my time?


A theme in Mike Bickle's recent teachings - actually, a greater emphasis in his teaching these days - is that as we behold God's emotions we are changed and empowered in our emotions - back to Himself and out to each other in the glory of His emotional likeness (the beholding and becoming principle). My John Piper posting to Light-String this evening touches on this.

Emotions are so often so much more powerful than reason or mental assent. There are times for teeth gritting obedience, but over the long run our emotional chemistry needs conformity in an experiential understanding to the life of God's emotions for staying and praying power that we might, from the deepest core of our being, live increasingly more consistent with the pleasure of His good will. The Beautiful God with the Fiery Heart and Burning, Volcanic Desires is Himself incredibly emotional! He is truly altogether worthy of the total response of our emotional being!

It is immensely important that we steward the time God gives us to get to know Him emotionally - to very purposely put ourselves in that place before Him to be vulnerable to His meeting with and revealing His emotions to us. He wants to touch our emotions, heal our image of Him, of ourselves and each other. It is called emotional wholeness, and to whatever degree we are or are not whole, has a tremendous impact upon how we carry our hearts in all that we are and do. So very many of us come before Him, busy, with a guarded spirit, and "live" lives that are, more or less, shut down emotionally. Yes, our spirits are saved, we know chapter and verse of Scripture, we read the other books, we look and sound good to others "in and out of" ministry, but we are not emotionally present to God, ourselves or to others with the fidelity that He desires. More than all else the Bridegroom God wants to very sharply increase our capacity to enjoy Himself to Whom we belong forever!

Intimate blessings of affection from His Holy Heart,

Hi Stephen,

Interesting study. As we were discussing eternal security a short time ago, I wrote on the experiential with much of the same conclusions as to how important it is. Your letter got me wondering though. Linda sent us some things on humility last night. Does God ever get humble? I mean, I know that we must stay humble in the sight of God in that as we decrease, He increases; this is the way we take upon His spiritual nature. But what are the emotions that God has? We know that God is love and that is the most powerful emotion that we could probably imagine, with maybe hatred a close second as an antithesis. But does God take pride in things? We know that He can get angry and jealous but can He be surprised or shocked? Well maybe not but it is an interesting thought if not humorous. Man has so many emotions and if we are created in His image maybe He has some of these Himself, less the fleshly ones I guess.

A lot of people think that being emotional in Christianity is just a lot of pentecostal nonsense but I agree that we should be taking on emotional spirituality. What would be the opposite, unemotional Christianity? The kind that prays in the mind and not the spirit? No glory to glory or God's spirit bearing witness to our spirit? I think that we had better respond to Him emotionally or what kind of faith do we have? The answer to that is conservative faith I guess, something that I used to have, it has to be radical or what is the sense of it all? God wants every part of us.


"The closer to redemption, the higher our heads should be but I am still downcast. " Jay wrote.

Dear Jay, It seems like it would be that way, but the Lord helped me to cope by understanding it is just the opposite. The closer to the Light, the more of our true nature is seen --- It is not that we are any different than we were -- it is just that because we are closer, the Light is brighter and reveals more of the 'real' us. If our foundation has not been established upon the Grace of God, we will be forced to turn around and fall back into more comfortable surroundings (back where we can hold onto our illusion about our own 'goodness') -- but if our roots are firmly and established in the LOVE of God.. and we have learned to 'rely on the Love of God', then we can face the truth about ourselves -- and be truly humbled. I can only encourage you dear Jay -- this IS the good soil of humility and without being clothed in these brown robes of humility, we cannot keep pressing on. May I share a few little teachings the Lord shared with me, over these past few years as He was showing me my own black heart..... I recognize the His Divine Workings in your heart. Glory to The Name of Jesus! Love, Linda (From the last three years...)


I am contemplating "Humility" tonight... wondering if it truly is a choice of the will.... or is it more the fruit of God's Divine Favor upon His children?

I see it is as the Fruit of a true "realization of ourselves"... in right-relationship with our Beloved Lord. The fruit of a Divine "eye-opening".. which causes us to fall to our knees in need (again and again) of His Great Mercy, and Forgiveness.

This "know yourself" state of being.. in which we are reminded of our weakness and proneness to falling-short (homartia) of His Glory... if truly acknowledged, humbles us. It removes false-trust in ourselves... replacing it "in Him".. who has promised to finish what HE has started in each of us. The One who loves us as we are.. and gives us the Grace to see ourselves as He sees us.. in true Nakedness. His Divine "Eye-opening" work will result in an even greater Love for Him.. who is our Righteousness [Jer 33:16] ... if we will faint not and turn in our "need" to Him!

One of His Most Precious Gifts to us, is this "enduring-forever Love" [Ps 107] He has promised us He has for us.

A LOVE which enables Him, when we ask Him, to forgive us when we fall... knowing that even in this very act of Divine Forgiveness, He will cause us to Love Him even more. (He/She who has been forgiven much, loves much)

What CAN separate us from the Love of God?


When we see ourselves in the Light of His Greatness, we are reminded of His Strength and our weakness and when we are built upon a Gospel foundation of Grace, then we can easily acknowledge this great contrast and revel in His Greatness... knowing that it is when we are at our weakest, that HE is STRONGEST in us! [Singing: How Great Thou Art!]

I keep thinking about Isaiah and the sense of his heartfelt "woe is me" when in the

Presence of the Most Holy God... isn't this truly the basis of "humility". Did he choose to be humble... or did the fact of the true relationship between a mere mortal and a Holy God throw him to his knees in reverent fear? Did the sinner in the Temple, choose to be "humble" as he beat upon his breast.. oh God, Have Mercy upon me a Sinner? The closer we get to God (based upon a maturity of living and walking with Him over time)... the more sinful we see we are... and humility is the fruit of this Truth... and "true humility" is the only humility there is!!

Let us rejoice in the humbling work of our Beloved.. even now!

To be truly broken and humble is not a sign of self-mutilation... but rather the Hand of a Loving Father, unveiling the true state of our hearts... reminding us we are "works in progress".. ever needful of the Mercy and Forgiveness of God! And HE Loves us Anyway! Hallelujah!

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason, I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His Unlimited Patience as an example for those who would believe on Him and receive Eternal Life. [1 Tim. 1:15-16]

Jesus Christ, Son of God.. have mercy upon me a sinner!

In the Light of His Love, which Endures Forever!




Are we truly LOVERS of TRUTH?

On this Divine Path that we are on together... each alone/yet one in Him... He is challenging us to face His "Reality".... and not what we have created as our reality... our 'safe' little worlds, where we have decorated with all the Christian works and teachings and "things" which we thought were pleasing to Him. (things which have been 'right' for a time... but keeping in step with His Spirit, we are being challenged to consider our reality from His Perspective!)

Now.. HE is challenging us to let Him 'clean house'.. to empty out this house of our creation! Challenging us to 'let go' of all of 'our wisdom', 'our knowledge', 'our understanding'..... challenging us to trust Him to lead us into the state of being Paul described as 'knowing nothing except Christ... and Him crucified'..... recklessly throwing our full weight upon God! ... Not trusting our limited understanding of Him... not trusting in anything except HIM ... facing the reality of the shaking that HE has brought into our lives... allowing everything that is NOT of Him to be brought to the Cross... a death to all self-rule in whatever form it has taken in our individual lives. Knowing only that we will be LOST completely if HE does not hold us in the palm of His Hands!

As Paul said, letting go of everything of the past, and pressing on to apprehend that for which we have been apprehended by Christ! Can we rise to this level of faith? Only if God gives us the Faith for this... for all of reason, unbelief and fear will rise up and seek to keep us bound to the limits of our past understanding. Will we embrace the death that we might experience the LIFE that HE offers?

Oh... let us embrace the death to our former 'self'... that our Glorified Lord be made manifest in our bodies!! ... Let us trust HIM to call us forth from this very real death to our past life, into the yet unknown LIFE of Oneness with Him ... which HE seeks to live in our mortal bodies.. May our mortal bodies be clothed with His Immortality.... as we "somehow attain to the Resurrection" spoken of by Paul.

Death to the old.. Life to the NEW!

Let us believe HIM whom we have entrusted our very lives, knowing HE is able to KEEP us safe until That Day... the Day of the Lord... that great day of His Revealing.
The Spirit and the Bride say COME LORD JESUS...

In this great LOVE of HIS!

your sister, Linda the Beguine

Dear jay
I agree first things first.

I thought G-d was going to grab hold of those who hurt me and instead he grabbed me and said repent. lord Lord I have been repenting yet it continues on more more repentance. It seems our old nature wants to hold on for dear life and G_d says, slay it.

Yet as I submit I find a little more of him. Oh if only it could come quikly but alas its seems so long and slow in my case.

father help my brother as he lays all on the altar. Give him a glimpse of that treasure that awaits him that will make him throw off all that hinders and run for the calling, that calling that brings him close to your heart, do it in your name Jesus\Amen

love you in Jesus

Dear Jay,

Yes, God is humble. In Psalm 113:5-6 we read: "Who is like the Lord our God, Who has His seat on high, Who humbles Himself to regard the heavens and the earth!" Amp. That He shows any favor at all to us is luminously clear to me that He is truly humble. In Psalm 138:6, David who most probably had more divine, intimate insight into the emotionality of the personality, character and nature of the Godhead than anyone else in the Old Testament joys to tells us this: "For though the Lord is high, yet has He respect to the lowly [bringing them into fellowship with Him]; but the proud and haughty He knows and recognizes [only] at a distance." Amp. In Matthew 11:29 Jesus says: "Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am gentle (meek) and humble (lowly) in heart, and you will find rest (relief and ease and refreshment and recreation and blessed quiet) for your souls." Amp.

I don't believe that hatred exists in God's Being. Hatred is a negative emotion expressed out of man's fallen nature. In actuality, hatred is a satanic spirit in total opposition to the pure, sovereign, furiously flaming, jealous Spirit of Love - God Himself. Even God's judgements are His mercies for they remove that which hinders and rebels against Love and would obscure how He sees, thinks, purposes, provides, and passionately feels toward His creation.

Perhaps, what you are referring to as God's pride is His glory. In the self revelation of Who He is to creation as the uncreated Creator, unformed Love, the Circle without circumference and the Center filling all, as Majesty in Love with all Power, the Father and Lord of Glory et al, God delights in being God and therefore, at least, humanly speaking, we could say He is proud. He takes pride, too, in His children, that is, in those of us in Whom He sees Christ being formed of which the natural family on earth is only a token.

There has been much of what has been called "emotional excess or imbalance" that has not been God's Spirit living the life and power of Christ's emotions through us. Human zeal for God is entirely other than us being impassioned by the infinitely impassioned One, Himself. It takes God to love God. It takes God to know and feel God's holy, heart. It takes God to even desire to draw near to God. He alone initiates and empowers all that is good, even as He, Himself is the one and only, true and living Good.

I thank you Jay for raising this issue of the emotions of our beloved Lord. The whole dimension of the affective aspect of God consciousness - the teaching and the experiential knowledge of Him in this - is so neglected in the church in this present hour, and yet is so absolutely crucial to real unity with Him and with each other. He does want our emotional lives to flow in oneness with His emotional life as ones being healed, matured and motivated to know Him and give Him away more effectually. As the Spirit progressively brings the revelation of the burning, yea blazing, feelings of affectionate desire in the heart of the Father and the Beautiful Bridegroom God to our emotions, we will be changed from glory to glory into HIS emotional likeness! Let's fill our lamps with the Oil of gladness and be ready to go out to meet Him!

HE IS, therefore, I am,

*haha* HUGS ((( MARY))) Remember it really is HIM who is the LOVE that is shed abroad in our hearts. HE is the bonding in Love -- when your heart feels that rising up and expansion in LOVE, you are spiritually seeing and experiencing Him! and NOTHING can separate us from this Love of God, which is in Christ Jesus (which IS the Spirit of Christ Jesus)

I have so ***emphatically** learned that the ONLY GOOD in me is HIM! I have discovered I am truly a blackhearted sinner (yet Loved of God) -- yet, I do not wallow in fear because of the truth of my being a 'work in progress' -- for I have come to see that it is the very blackness in me which makes me NEED Him so much! It is my great need for Him which 'qualifies' me to receive His Grace. (She who has been forgiven much, Loves much!) Remember Paul's words concerning the Lord's Power being made complete in his weakness. I am the emptiness -- the great NEED... and His Grace Must flow down and fill that need -- as High Pressure must flow down and fill the low pressure pockets. As in the natural -- so too in the spiritual. When we become free enough (through our learning to rely upon the Love of God) that we no longer have to try to "fill up" our great emptiness -- but we just wait upon God, quit trying to 'protect ourselves' -- quit trying to fill up that emptiness with human works of (self) righteousness -- then His Power is made complete in us. (I think of it in terms of a circularity of the Power of God (the Grace of God -- the Divine Energies of God) which are *drawn* to our need, pulled down by our emptiness.... filling us and then returning to Himself. From God ---> Though God (Christ is us, the Hope of Glory) -----> To God.

We need never fear being honestly who we are -- nor should we become envious of any other physical manifestation of our Lord (true meaning of being a Christian: one in whom Christ dwells by faith): God passionately loves us and has created each of us to be a beautiful and unique expression of His Beloved Son, Jesus! We must never allow ourselves to be compromised -- but joyfully just LIVE and Radiate forth Christ as He is in you! I love you Mary -- never worry about expressing whatever you feel in your heart. We are all just as we are right now.. and yet tomorrow we may have learned another whole degree of truth -- and in tomorrow's light (as we "grow" in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ) we can see some things just a little differently! We don't forget what we have learned, but we are ever changing, ever growing, ever dying to more and more of our old ways of thought (thus seeing and hearing ever more clearly) -- as we grow up into Him who is the Head. May His Thoughts flows freely though our mind/soul - body and Spirit. Here is something I just read in Andrew Murray's "The Ministry of Intercession". I think it is a most wonderful truth -- one that my heart recognizes whenever and wherever I find it being expressed: Andrew M. writes: "If our failure teaches us to turn afresh to Him -- and to find in Him the Grace He gives to pray as we should, this humiliation may become our greatest blessing!"

That is the lesson that I learned in my ongoing "humiliation". :) I remember one day when I was so grieving over the state of my black heart... and I felt the JOY of the Lord come bubbling up from deep within me.. and the Laughter of God radiate out from my broken and contrite heart: the Lord spoke such a wondrous GRACEFUL word to me...saying... hahahahhaa... HOW do you suppose you GET your Brown Robes Linda? hahhaha... that HELPED so much -- for I realized He truly does know us at our worst and LOVES us anyway!
Can we do any less than this for our brethren?

Blessed are the merciful -- for they shall receive mercy.
Is we know how much we need it -- how then can we ever deny it to others?

From the bottomlands, where Grace flows deeply -- drawn by the great needs of all the people.
Love, Linda

Thank you for your love Linda, and Hi everyone,
This is Stephen's last paragraph on the topic of emotion:

"I thank you Jay for raising this issue of the emotions of our beloved Lord. The whole dimension of the affective aspect of God consciousness - the teaching and the experiential knowlege of Him in this - is so neglected in the church in this present hour, and yet is so absolutely crucial to real unity with Him and with each other. He does want our emotional lives to flow in oneness with His emotional life as ones being healed, matured and motivated to know Him and give Him away more effectually. As the Spirit progressively brings the revelation of the burning, yea blazing, feelings of affectionate desire in the heart of the Father and the Beautiful Bridegroom God to our emotions, we will be changed from glory to glory into HIS emotional likeness! Let's fill our lamps with the Oil of gladness and be ready to go out to meet Him!"

I really like this subject, it is wonderful to me to hear grown-up Christians speaking about emotion as a necessary part of coming to know God. I am absolutely certain that the emotions of God are rich and deep beyond our current grasp, and I agree with Stephen that this area is neglected in the church, or at least in the experience of many of us. I wonder if it was our developing emotions as God's children that began to mark us out and make us targets when we first suffered the isolation in the church that many of us speak of.

I remember someone saying when I was first saved, "Love is not a feeling, it is an effort of will". What was meant I suppose was that it is no good being sentimental and not offering practical help where needed. But I always felt it was a bit of an excuse not to get involved with each other and find out the things really troubling us, and the aching hearts behind the masks we so often wear. Emotionless giving misses the point always, because it never fully understands or cares about the need.

One of my friends from the past was married to a violent alcoholic. As a struggling young Christian she sought prayer and help from a local older woman in the church one day, when she was at the end of her tether. The woman refused to discuss my friends difficulties in her marriage, but very quickly picked up on the fact that she was a smoker, and prayed loudly and elaborately for her to be delivered from her addicton to nicotine. These kind of things are not forgotten easily, my friend is still hurt by the memory of it.

Another saying that used to do the rounds regarding knowing if you were saved was "Don't go by your feelings, but by the Word of God". That was fine up to a point, and certainly encouraged examination of scripture to see where you stood. But you could do that all your life and never enter into a living, feeling, developing relationship with the Lord. And it is surely dangerous Spiritually to know something only in your mind without the feelings that match.

It seems to me that, when you receive the Holy Spirit, your real emotional life begins. Your heart begins to function as it should and you are able to feel the things God feels, not only the loving and caring, but also the sorrowing and yearning and pain that God feels when His children continue to hurt themselves and each other. And then there is the shame and regret and fear that we get living a life that is not honouring God despite being His children. "What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed?" Once we weren't ashamed of what we did, but now we are, we have been changed. Our feelings are different, praise the Lord!

Lately I am thinking we have a responsibility to each other to encourage healthy emotional development in the Lord. Having your feelings walked all over is apt to stunt your growth. I know I need to grow up a bit in this area, and you are helping me by letting me be myself. We are starting to watch out for each other.

I would be interested to hear what other emotions are experienced by my brothers and sisters, what things make you laugh and cry, what things move you or upset you. It is easier to care for you if I know you that way.

Love from Mary

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