Speak the Same Thing

October 13, 2001

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:11

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 17:17

I am thoroughly enjoying these posts that you guys are sending. We are beginning to understand that although we may be saying different things on certain subjects that it does not have to mean that we disagree on them. There has been a whole lot of agreement on this subject. Since it is up to me to make sure everyone is on track, I wanted to let you know what some of the prophets are saying lately in the words that I have been receiving concerning not only our little fellowship but to the church at large.

Jesus is our friend and He is seeing us loving and serving each other, we are increasing in wisdom and knowledge and have come too far to turn back. We need to keep our vision and focus clear. Others remind us that we need more prayer, we need to heed His voice and put our own house in order. Others are telling us that we are to rest in the Lord and not lean upon our own understanding, that the Lord desires clarity of sound and of purpose but that there are voices that are trying to distract us from our stated goals and are bringing their own agenda. The enemy wants to throw us off the path the Lord has put us on. We are to examine our hearts and be open to judgment and correction, purify ourselves and change our garments and forgive others who have hurt and wounded us. The Lord will be sending others, we need to have the heart and mind to receive them, get ready and be prepared.

What these prophets are saying are in direct relation to getting ready to answer the question that I had asked for this time:

"What will it take to convince an errant church that they need to change?"

The first answer has been to clean up our own house first. The devil hates that.

We are doing a good job and the Lord has prompted many of us to take on this vital question whether we are aware of it or not. We speak of the love involved (praise the Lord, we always do, don't we), the process of maturity in dealing with the contentions, the spirit of truth from the spirit of error, the importance of unity, the solemn assembly and of knowing right from wrong and good from evil and taking upon us the sins of the church. We have become aware of our own inadequacies and shortcomings, our need for ministering to each other, identifying error in ourselves and rescuing others from it. These things are all upon our stated goals and speaking from our hearts. Do you realize how lucky we are and how much that God is ministering to us through His Spirit?

But there are distractions that I see. There is speaking of important Biblical doctrines as if they are not important. There is an attitude that we do not need to be speaking the same things to be as One and division among us might be a good thing. None of us believe that and you have said as much but unless we are aware, everyone will be convinced that this is just a devotional group or a social club type of forum or free for all discussion where we can bring up anything we want as if the Lord does not have a specific task at hand. Or God forbid, it is just something that agrees with me or with this particular group. If it is God directed, it is important enough and what we have been bringing is good if only it serves to remind us that we can discuss in freedom and safety and that we can disagree and still be friends. There are however certain subjects that we should be avoiding rather than let contention get the best of us by having to answer and defend certain positions. We are better than that. I will not identify them; I will let the Lord guide us in that as He has been all along.

We need to just be listening right now. Take a deep breath, glory in what He has been showing us and wait upon Him for clear direction. Not that it may not happen in an instant, keep on posting and sharing what God is revealing in present truth but again, let's stay focused. Great things coming for us but there will also be heartbreak and sorrow. Are we ready for it?

Keep on keeping on, we are really making some progress in the question at hand. I have just taken three weeks work that started yesterday so it will be lean for me again as far as time is concerned but that has never stopped me before.

The question remains the same for this time and now that we have more of a perspective, let's carry on with that. Please read the dialogue, at least skim through the posts, I know how much information they have contained lately but you will be blessed with them. I guarantee it.

"What will it take to convince an errant church that they need to change?" Same question, let's see where the Lord leads with it some more.


Thank you for Latter Rain, Lord Jesus. I feel the YES to the writings focused on unity. (John 17) I feel the YES to 2 Chron 7:14. His people -His church - Jesus went to the Synagogue first. Yes to looking at the issues Jesus has with the churches in Rev 2 and 3. Yes - we cannot humble other people only ourselves. I feel the YES to guard my heart against pride and confess it when it sneaks up on me - I feel the YES to love God's people with His love. I pray for the strength and purpose to do not my will, but like Jesus, the will of the Father who sends me.

I believe His people, (and they are responding to His call - one at a time) - who hear the call to repentance (at least I believe this for me) are to willingly take the sins of the church upon themselves - recognize -accept - confess - grieve - lament - seek forgiveness for the people - and speak when led by the Holy Spirit.

Most of the prophets sorrowfully took the sins of the people upon themselves - they saw the sin from God's perspective and not the world's, they cried out to God and the people for them. Moses offered to die for the people to be saved - Josiah tore his clothes when he realized God's word had been hidden in the temple (and hidden in the church today?) and Nehemiah and Jeremiah, and Joel, and Isaiah, ...and Jesus ultimately bore, once for all, and died for all the sins of the world and He intercedes for us.

For today - I remain in fervent prayer - to intercede, with God's love for His people - beseeching God for more workers for the huge harvest that awaits. Beseeching God for His strength and His spirit to move and direct us with His Holy wind and fire. (waiting, as the disciples did, for the Holy Spirit to come upon us) I pray, too, for the contributors to Latter Rain - and those whom God is calling to stir up the gift that is within them - to make their calling and election sure. May we see Your glory, Father, as we wait to walk for You.

My only hope is Him,


I really respond to your spirit Sue. To take upon us the sins of the people has to be the way to go. Isn't this what Jesus did for us? We should do that for our brothers and sisters. Of course, if we are to be true to 2 Chron 7:14, then we are to humble ourselves and pray, this is the first step. Knowing what to pray for and having the spirit to pray according to God's will takes a spirituality that not many Christians are able to muster up. Sad, but I think that it is true. I am a positive thinker, I think things will get better and so do you. Any willing vessel can hear God but we must come to the point of maturity as a church if we are to know how to resurrect the dry bones before the harvest. Many souls are ripe but many need to be nurtured yet.

Praise the Lord, He is good. He will cause these dry bones to rise up with breath in them. We must prophesy like Ezekiel, we must pray that the Lord will send His spirit into them. This is the house of Israel, this is the church. Taking upon us their sins means that we ask for forgiveness for the last two thousand years of infighting and false prophets. We take upon us the sins of the Crusaders in their murders of Muslims, we take upon us the sins of the Catholics killing Protestants and the Protestants killing Catholics. We repent for the murderous sins and all the lies of the false teachers for the mess that the church has become in the name of Jesus.

Again, we need that solemn assembly. We need to sanctify the congregation. We need to preach repentance and holiness and love and humility and unity and display these traits ourselves without hypocrisy to convince an unbelieving world. Those dry bones will rise again. Who will the Lord send? Here we are Lord. We hear your voice. Send us. Use us to your glory.



Dear Jay -I "hear" your hope in Him. I hear it in the comments from others. It is God's Holy Spirit that will move in His people when they are willing to "hear" and accept the cross - the "t" after hearing - to feel it in their hear"t". I affirm your desire for reconciliation and restoration - God has given His people this ministry (2 Cor 5:11-21)

>From what I can discern about calling the Solemn Assembly, it is first a call to the elders of the church by a recognized prophet of God. My focus is not that God is not doing a new thing, but on whom God is placing the call to place the call to the Solemn Assembly. How do you and others envision it? Local church - community - region - denomination - national - yes to all?

Nehemiah and the tumbling wall of Jerusalem set an example for me. Nehemiah asked for God's blessing to seek the king's permission to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the wall. And so, I will be mourning and fasting and praying Nehemiah's prayer to God - for Him to bring forth His purposed leader (the cupbearer) and the exiled remnant to carry out the rebuilding: Neh 1:3-11

3 They said to me, "Those who survived the exile and are back in the province are in great trouble and disgrace. The wall of Jerusalem is broken down, and its gates have been burned with fire.

4 When I heard these things, I sat down and wept. For some days I mourned and fasted and prayed before the God of heaven. 5 Then I said:

O LORD, God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant of love with those who love Him and obey His commands, 6 let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open to hear the prayer Your servant is praying before You day and night for Your servants, the people of Israel. I confess the sins we Israelites, including myself and my father's house, have committed against You. 7 We have acted very wickedly toward You. We have not obeyed the commands, decrees and laws You gave Your servant Moses. 8 "Remember the instruction you gave Your servant Moses, saying, `If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to Me and obey My commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.' 10 "They are Your servants and Your people, whom You redeemed by Your great strength and Your mighty hand. 11 O Lord, let Your ear be attentive to the prayer of this Your servant and to the prayer of Your servants who delight in revering Your name. Give Your servant success today by granting him favor in the presence of this man.

May be continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is You, God, who works in us to will and to act according to Your good purpose (Phil 2:1-18)

Hoping for Healing and Renewal
Lord, help me be Your humble servant,


As a reply to your letter, I feel like God has told me that unless signs and wonders appear with our message, they won't believe us. I feel that the authority has been given to us after we have been purified and tried by the fire to stand at His side and declare His words. We can't wake up a dead church, only He can as only He revealed it to us personally in the first place. Our job is to be totally dependent on hearing Him and obeying Him.....He will direct our every step. Fire will proceed out of our mouths. Too many people have made a Hollywood movie out of end-time events. Life will be normal, only hard times will come on those who need awakening. He has proven that when tribulation comes, He saves those out of it that He wants to. Take a tornado, it can leave a neighborhood devastated, and leave one house standing perfectly untouched!!!! Sounds like our God, doesn't it? Enemies all around, but they won't come nigh us!!!! Touch not mine anointed.....



Hi Chris,

I don't remember where it is but wasn't it Jesus that said it is an evil generation that seeks after signs and wonders? Maybe I am misquoting but we are certainly in an evil generation and this could very well be the way that Jesus will reveal Himself through us. Maybe i am just thinking of John 4 when He said "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." He also said that many false prophets will appear with signs and wonders so we must be very careful how this thinking is applied. Once we do come to the point that you are speaking of here, we can do the first works and even greater works. Others will follow but can you imagine the attitude of the heresy hunters against us? The Lord will protect us but many will be martyred at the hands of those doing it in the name of Jesus, or in the name of Allah or whatever. We might not see it but then who knows? think of the Christians in Indonesia right now, or in many other parts of the world. I agree however, "just as it was in the days of Noah."


Hey There,

the verse we are using at the moment is in Isaiah, "Call upon the Lord while He is near..." our pastor believes and so do some of us that there will be a famine of the Word, soon, and men will not be able to find it looking everywhere and seeking it out

you asked for feedback on how to jolt a lukewarm church?

to wake the people strike the shepherd, and the sheep will scatter, this has been done, also, those who know the Master's voice will follow Him....

in these end days, we pray more and more for the unsaved, and we fellowship with those who know Jesus to keep our faith and spirits strengthened, my children watch tv in horror, not believing what man will do to gain land or oil or power, i think we can wake our sleeping churches by asking God to show them in their hearts the truth of what is happening - satan is gaining his throne, a great comfort always to me is that overall God still is in control, He is watching all of this and waiting to see who will follow His voice and who will let themselves be deceived

churches in our area are all functioning on different levels, i am always careful not to judge, lest i be judged, some are concerned with the people, others are out sowing, others yet are beginning to reap, some are in warfare, some seem to be doing nothing, but i do not attend these places, so i may be wrong, but if i never go to church again, i know two things, and i am sure you know these things too,

Jesus is Lord,

i am saved, and Jesus keeps me in there,

stay happy,



Thanks Teresa,

I think that the most important thing is what you are saying here in that "we" ask God to show them. This is the unity coming. Are we there yet? Obviously not, I pray that we will be soon.


Dear Jay,
This discussion has been interesting in that it is revealing through the various posts that God is moving on our hearts to lay aside, if only for a little while, the lovely cogent intellectual reasonings we enjoy so much, and focus on truly loving the brethren. No one was won by intellectual argument or great apologetics; only King Agrippa once came close, but not close enough.

All your questions at the end of the newsletter are valid and good ones. Many of us struggle with these very same questions daily. It is very frustrating.

Just two nights ago, at a service at my church, after the proclamation of a great Word, a call for repentance was made. As I made my way to the front near the podium, the word of the lord came to me so loud and so clear that I was startled. Usually I hear a very quiet inner voice. This time I thought everybody could hear it.

The word was "Open your mouth and cry aloud - weep between the porch and the altar. Travail for the false prophets and pastor and teachers---that Christ may be formed in them again. Only then can they hear truth. You can do nothing to make them see or hear--it will be done by my Spirit alone. You cry out for them and I will incline my ear to you and hear your cry and I will answer. I long to gather them under my wings and they would not. Your tears, your cries your intercession I will gather up in vials. My harvest must be reaped."

All this came in rapid succession. It felt I had been there for only a few moments. Later I was told I had been there on my face for 20 minutes! I have no idea how the Lord is going to do this, but he has stilled my soul over these issues. We must continue to love these difficult self-opinionated ones with the same passion that Christ does. Don't tell me this is hard. I already know it is. But love we must. Already my church is wondering at my peace--stepped down from leadership, not included anymore in the decision making process, I have become the invisible yet visible woman. Nothing can steal my joy! This job is too big for us. It will be done by Him. In the meantime we must do what we can. We wait on Him.

I am mentoring, encouraging, exhorting, comforting, teaching, on a one on one basis. Jesus is still Lord, to the glory of God, Hallelujah!

Love you all, much. We are family. Ada.


Hi Ada

Really had to chew on this one for a while. Really great responses coming and with the same heart as we see here in weeping between the porch and the altar which is part of the solemn assembly. Listen to this:

I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden. Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD. Zephaniah 3:18-20.

Wow, this is what we are waiting for isn't it. The gathering, the vindication, the restoration, the praise of those that have humbled themselves. Not for ourselves but for the sake of the entire world being brought to the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. These words are for today as much as they were in the days of Babylonian captivity. We are reproached for not having the joy that others are having right now. We are not laughing or rolling in the aisles or praising God for our rich circumstances, we are truly sorrowful of the condition of the church yet so many of us are hurt and despised and rejected for speaking out. There has been much call for repentance lately but that has always happened in times of tragedy. Surely this time will be different, we can only hope. It is the attitude of battlefield conversions "please God, bring me through this and I will serve you." Works sometimes but other times it is back to business as usual.

Others have called for the solemn assembly and travail for the church, whether it was by God's spirit, only He knows. There was one by the Pentecostal Holiness Church a few years ago, one in Atlanta last spring but where are the ones that last, that produce results, that usher in the harvest and signs and wonders? So many are expecting just that but haven't seen it yet. Sure there are sporadic revivals and victories and people saved but it has always been that way. Once thing that we do know is that God will answer our prayers. Many see the church as healthy, vibrant and alive but you and I know that others are in travail for the church and have been for some time now.

I don't know how the Lord is going to do it either. I just want to be there while He does, so I know that we will both continue to stay upon our faces to seek the Lord for these answers. We are getting many of them as we speak just in the process of discussing it. That is exciting.


What I would like feedback on this time is just what will it take to convince an errant church that they need to change?

YHWY answers this Himself in the preceding verses...2 Chronicles 7:12 Then the LORD appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, "I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice. 13 "If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, 14 and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

And this came in answer to prayer as in this day and is interesting that He says He has choen this place for 'Myself.'

He also says:

At night my soul longs for Thee, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently; For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness; Though the wicked is shown favor, he does not learn righteousness; he deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, and does not perceive the majesty of the Lord. Isaiah 26:9-10

Which shows He comes in this way for those who are already His.

How do you approach a luke-warm church that thinks they are hot?

In humility, love, mercy, but with truth of the condition.

How do you wake up a dead church that thinks that they are alive?

With life, by walking in truth and not just speaking truth. By BEING that which which you have been called to be.

How do you approach false prophets and false christs that think that they have the light and truth?

With truth and the power of the Spirit.

What of the harvest? Of the remnant? Of the dry bones?

Even now YHWY is awakening His people to the truth of who they are. He will awaken the dead and make the dry bones live. But the prophets must proclaim it in its due time.

Sure, there is apostasy, it is here but what of the revival and sifting?

I believe it is more restoration than revival. To restore ancient paths. To restore identity to the body. I have seen nothing that we should be revived to. At least not for almost 2000 years. And the end will be so much more than the beginning. Remnant? Yeh, I believe careful study of the word will reveal He WILL have a tithe of humanity that is His, the elect, the chosen, the Sons of Elohim. Not speaking of salvation along issues here. There has been a remnant in each and every generation I believe. The last will be ones which this world has never witnessed. Martyred as never before. In great darkness to be a great light. Maybe 144,000? Of ALL the House of Israel!

Those that despise prophecy have become at enmity with God. How do we reach them?

I have come to that place more than once, but maybe not in the same way you ask. I actually got very tired of 'sweet, nice, everythign is ok' words! I KNEW my lacking and sin and yet it was not addressed!? Yeh, the tickling became so as to make me feel like vomiting. So much I had to forgive and come to terms with in this. To once again love, have mercy, not be Jonah.

Love, mercy, prayer and intercession. I actually believe YHWY will bring these back. Yet on the other side of the coin? Those who despise truth? SOME of these are just in fear of the light which reveals. But there ARE those who are of a dark heart who have no desire to know truth, much less speak it or walk in it. THESE will not change. Yet I still pray and seek teshuva... I have seen this even in my own heart. To KNOW and not obey or walk in it. IT IS AN AWESOME thing to see HIM! If it were not for His promises I would fall into the dark pit of hopelessness and hell. FAITH! The ultimate truth which enables us to continue on this walk. ...

How do we break down the ignorance?

By walking in and proclaiming truth.

Can we answer a few of those questions? Or don't they matter?

They matter only to those who believe. Who seek the heart of the Creator, who desire His kingdom come and will be done...above self....

Blessings in YHWY and Elohim Yeshua Messiah....... He is One..Echad...

I agree with all you said about the terror strike in New York. My simple answer to all the questions is

  1. Preach the Word.
  2. Depend on the Holy Spirit to do the convicting. He uses the preached word. The preacher is not the one who convicts but the Holy Spirit is when the Word is preached.
  3. Pray: a. for God to reveal any and all sin in the preacher and in the church.
  4. Repent, confess, and make restitution.
  5. Be consistent in all the above.

God bless America!!

Teresa Tickner

the unity of the people, the bride, is a ways off yet, but God needs the individual churches to unify in their groups first, i will marvel at Him yet again when i see them all come together as one, then we will know He isn't far away

there are groups on the net yelling find Jesus; my response to this has always been why? He aint lost, but i wonder if they really know where to look....

the unity of the bride to the Bridegroom, i believe will come threefold:

  1. in each person

  2. in each church

  3. in all the churches as one

I know God as many names, one being The God of Cycles and this unity will bring His enemies under His feet

that's what i reckon, how about you?



Hi Teresa,

I agree in that I see that happening in many churches. I do have trouble believing that it will be some kind of unification movement bringing in all of the churches. Denominational pride is a real hard nut to crack and unfortunately we have to leave room for all of the virgins without oil in their lamps. I am for that kind of unity in churches and get criticized for it but ecumenical thinking is part of allowing God to answer the prayer of Jesus that we may all be One.

I hold more to the notion that there is that remnant seed in all of the churches. The unity that we will see will cross over denominational lines into a spiritual unity rather than join them together physically. This remains to be seen but Jesus tells us to repent in the letters to the seven churches and then to strengthen what remains, not get out of the churches. What we are to do is to get out of the Babylonian confusion that has dominated in many of them, the confusion and idolatry and nationalistic pride. There will be restoration but there will also be apostasy and for us rebuilding the walls, we have to realize that there are those in the church that will be throwing stones and hindering us. Many have said that there is a civil war coming in the church but I see it already. We are close.




I agree it will be a spiritual unity, i dont hold much with ecumenicism, there isn't room for all denominations (and their various degrees of gods), first in the spiritual, then in the physical, first the jew, then the gentile but to say this from the bible, to people who argue that all gods are just the higher consciousness that we will join when we die gets me into trouble a lot, our pastor also says there will be divisions in the church, the goats separated from the sheep, this too i believe is a cycle, ongoing from start to finish

i have been reading a lot of Revelation, and the whore of Babylon -there are varying arguments here on exactly what Babylonia is, in this age, i am no great genius, but i do read my bible carefully, and ponder its words to me, i don't think babylon is a place in the world, i believe it is a place in us, wealth pride, excessive living, money and the power that goes with it, affluence, the opposite of what Jesus says, practice frugality

what say you, if you have the time for such debates,

stay happy,


Hi Teresa,

That's great, it is in the spiritual unity more than anything "One in the Spirit."

We discussed Babylon in depth already so I don't have time for more of it but I also believe it is more of a state of mind than a place. It is in the confusion that the churches have been guilty of, and the nationalistic pride. We do know that there will be religious, economic and military aspects to it so it corresponds somehow with the beast coming, or of course already here, and the worship of its image. Check out the discussions we had, there is much more information there than I have ever seen anywhere else and some really great contributions. It starts with the discussion on February 25th of last year at http://latter-rain.com/archive/2-25-2000.htm . From there, I have put next and back buttons at the bottom of the page to take you to the next edition of the discussion.


A few comments:

We discussed Lucifer and it was brought up that Lucifer is not necessarily the devil but the power that he wanted for himself to be the light.

To suggest that 'Lucifer is not necessarily the devil' is a fracturing of the Word. Lucifer, the Morning Star, is, most assuredly, the devil. By whatever nickname, Satan wants to out-do God.

What I would like feedback on this time is just what will it take to convince an errant church that they need to change? How do you approach a luke-warm church that thinks they are hot? How do you wake up a dead church that thinks that they are alive? How do you approach false prophets and false christs that think that they have the light and truth. What of the harvest? Of the remnant? Of the dry bones? Sure, there is apostasy, it is here but what of the revival and sifting? Those that despise prophecy have become at enmity with God. How do we reach them? How do we break down the ignorance? Can we answer a few of those questions? Or don't they matter?

The Restoration, Establishmen, and Correction of the Church is the God-Ordained task of the present-day Apostles, who have been commissioned by Jesus Christ. The Leadership of the Church MUST be the Five-Fold Ministry, NOT the various man-made substitutes. As long as the 'Collective WE' insists on remaining, with cemented feet, in the various Doctrinal, Traditional and Denominational Beliefs, WE cannot, and will never be able to, do anything. World-wide Meetings, held on a daily basis, in an attempt to arrive at, and apply, an Intellectual False Unity, will never accomplish anything! Unity itself, as well as every concept mentioned in the above paragraph, can come about ONLY through the Holy Spirit, and a personal relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ. Any person, who wishes to know God, and move with God, must do so via a personal acceptance and relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ; Baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit, according to the Holy Scriptures. After being Baptized and filled, what is then required, is the process of Searching, Repentance, Sanctification and Consecration which is the Work of the Cross. This involves an attitude of voluntary Surrender on our part. We, each, must present ourselves a Living Sacrifice unto the Lord: Mind, Body, Soul and Spirit, and VOLUNTARILY, ask Him to search us in our deepest, innermost parts, with the Searchlight of His Holy Spirit. As things in need of Repentance are revealed, we must Repent of each one. As those things are revealed which are, in any way, in Enmity with the Will of the Lord, they must go to the Cross. We must allow the Lord to search us, free us, extricate us, release, express, adjust, and establish us, heal us, restore us. This is usually an extremely painful process (in the Intellectual and Emotional sense ) for us, but is absolutely essential if any of us are to move into the higher things of God.



Hi RevDeb,

Good to hear from you. Thanks for the great response to those questions.

Can you elaborate a little more on the statement "To suggest that 'Lucifer is not necessarily the devil' is a fracturing of the Word." As you must have already read in the dialogue, we discussed this and came up with some definite conclusions according to the word. It's Ok if you disagree with us but I would not want to be in error so help me in where in the Bible is says that Lucifer is satan the devil exclusively and not referred to as the king of Babylon or even the future king of Babylon or couldn't refer to a singular man who wants to be like God or ascend into heaven. And how my statement is "a fracturing."

Thanks RevDeb,


(There was no response)

Greetings Jay,

If you will allow me to share a brief word concerning the hurts and wounds within the church, I'd like to add my thoughts.

About three years ago the Lord began speaking to me about the healing that HE was going to bring to the local church. He told me the Local church is a major key to the season we are about to move into. He also told me that a "healing and restoration" of the "five-fold" ministry was going to come about. He said " there is so much more insight to be gained concerning the "five-fold" ministry I have set within my church".

The reason christians cont..to hurt christians ..is to be found in those what stand in leadership within the church. Many are called and not chosen, many are called and not faithful, many are called and chosen but have strayed from the foundations laid for the church age, by the Apostles . Of course we know the "church age" began in Acts chapter 2...and truths were set forth for that "new creation IN Christ". Somehow, ministers have thought they know best for God's people, rather than staying with the truths given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit ..who came to teach us the ways, purposes and plans of God our Father.

As we strayed from foundational truths, and refused to allow God's people grow up and begin to function properly.. we have held them back..so church buildings could remain full. The problem is...the people who have filled the buildings have remaind children . Children do not behave as adults in the faith. Thus we have strief, division, and so forth.

To heal the local church, a judgement must come to those who teach new converts, those in leadership within the local church. As the local church begins to function properly..not just function....christians will grow up and walk in power and authority. They will also walk in the spirit...under the control of the Holy Spirit. This will cause a release of God's love, authority and power. This will also bring us back to a healthy respect for those in leadership that follow after God with all their heart. This all combined together will take christians off the pews ( except to learn) and out into a dark world to bring forth the simple gospel. "You must be born again, you must grow in your understanding of what takes place at the new birth, and you must grow in your understanding of how to walk as a new creation in Christ."

Maturity....brings freedom. Freedom in the spirit will stop christians from attacking christians. Maturity will bring strength to the local church ..for the new converts that come in..Every seed produces after it's own kind. Healthy christians produce ..healthy christians. Healthy leaders, produce healthy "local churches". Healthy local churches ...change communities for the glory of God.

Just some thoughts ..hope you don't mind.
Pastor Sweet

An Epistle to the Reverend Mr. George Whitefield written by Charles Wesley, one heart compelled by Love.

Come on, my Whitefield! (Since the strife is past And Friends at first -- are Friends at last) Our hands and hearts and counsels join in mutual league, t'advance the Work Divine.

Our one contention -- our single aim to pluck poor souls as brands, out of the flame to spread the Victory of that Bloody Cross And gasp our latest breath in the Redeemer's Cause!

Too long -- alas! -- we gave Satan place when 'party zeal' put on an 'angel's face': Too long we listen'd to the deceiving fiend whose trumpet sounded "for the faith contend!"

With hasty blindfold rage in error's night how did we, with our fellow soldier's fight! We could not then, our Father's children know but each mistook his 'brother' for his 'foe'

"Foes to the truth, can you in conscience spare? Tear them!" the Tempter cried, "in pieces tear!" So thick the darkness -- so confused the noise! We took the stranger's for the Shepherd's Voice!

Rash nature waved the controversial sword on fire to fight the battles of the Lord: Fraternal Love from every breast was driven and Bleeding Charity return'd to Heaven.

The Savior saw our strife with pitying eye And cast a look that made the shadows fly; Soon as the day-spring in His Presence Shone We found the two fierce armies -- were but One!

Common our Hope -- and Family -- and Name Our Arms -- our Captain -- and our Crown, the Same! Enlisted ALL beneath Immanuel's Sign And purchased every soul, with Blood Divine.

Then let us cordially again Embrace! Nor e'er infringe the league of Gospel Grace Let us in Jesus' Name to battle go And turn our arms against the common foe!

Fight side-by-side beneath our Captain's Eye chase the Philistines, on their shoulders fly and - More Than Conquerors -- in the harness die!

For whether I am born to "blush above" on earth, suspicious of Electing Love or you -- o'erwhelmed with honorable shame to shout the Universal Saviour's Name It matters not: if all our conflicts past before the great white throne, we meet at last! Our only care -- while sojourning below our real faith -- by Real Love - to show!

To blast the Alien's hope and let them see How Friends of jarring sentiments agree. Not in a party's narrow banks confined not by a 'sameness of opinions' join'd! But cemented with the Redeemer's Blood and bound together in the Heart of God!

Can we forget from whence our union came? When first, we simply met in Jesus' Name? The Name Mysterious of the GOD UNKNOWN Whose secret Love allured -- and drew us on! through a long - lonely - legal wilderness to find the Promised Land of Gospel Peace!

True yokefellows, we then agreed to draw th' intolerable burden of the law; and jointly laboring on with 'zealous strife' strengthened each other's hands to work for Life to turn against the world - our steady face and - valiant for the truth - enjoy disgrace.

Then - when we served our God through fear alone our views - our studies - and our hearts were one no smallest difference damp'd the social flame in "Moses' school' we thought and spake the same And must we now - in Christ - with shame confess? Our Love was greater - when our light was less? When darkly through a glass with servile awe we first the Spiritual Commandment saw Could we not then, our mutual Love to show through fire and water for each other go?

We could -- We did. In a strange land I stood and beckon'd thee to cross th' Atlantic Flood with True Affection winged, thy ready mind left country -- fame -- and ease and friends behind and eager all Heaven's Counsels to explore flew through the watery world -- and grasp'd the shore

Nor did I linger at my friend's desire to tempt the furnace and abide the fire when - suddenly sent forth, from the highways I call'd poor outcasts to the Feast of Grace

Urged to pursue the work by thee begun through good and ill report, I still rush'd on Nor felt the fire of popular applause Nor fear'd the torturing flame in such a glorious cause

Ah! Wherefore did we ever seem to part or clash in sentiment.. while One in Heart? What dire device did the old serpent find to put asunder, those -- whom God had join'd? >From folly and self love, opinion rose to sever friends who never yet were foes; to battle and divert our noblest aim confound our pride - and cover us with shame. To make us blush beneath her short-lived power and glad the world with one triumphant hour!

But lo! the snare is broke! The captive's freed! By faith, on all the hostile powers we tread and crush, through Jesus' Strength, the serpent's head! Jesus hath cast the cursed Accuser down hath rooted up the tares by Satan sown kindled anew - the never dying flame and re-baptized our souls into His Name!

Soon as the Virtue of His Name we feel the storm of strife subsides - the sea is still All nature blows to His Benign Command And Two are One in His Almighty Hand One in His Hand - O may we still remain fast bound with Love's Indissoluble Chain That adamant which time and death defies that Golden Chain which draws us to the skies!

His Love - the tie that binds us to His Throne! His Love - the bond that perfects us in one His Love - let all the ground of friendship see His Only Love constrains our hearts t'agree And gives the Rivet of Eternity.

Charles Wesley
Submitted by Linda Evans

Hi Linda and everyone,

This is the culmination of the classic dialogue between John Wesley and Whitefield over the issue of pre-destination and free grace. Since it was over 250 years ago, it is past but wouldn't be nice to have them on the latter rain list? People are still taking one side or the other on this argument and then we come up with the absurd notion (to some) that predestination and free will are both true and scriptural and only those that deny one or the other is in error. We had been over this controversy twice. Because of what is on my site regarding it, I get a lot of hate mail from Calvinists but not one from Pentecostals.

Love is still the answer, always has been and always will be. Good for you, John & (Charles) Wesley.


I know Jay -- but I wonder if the "taking sides" is not an important part of our 'growing up' process? We are all coming through stages of development in our ongoing-maturing in Christ. I am sure I am not the only one who still carries memories of being so sure of my own "rightness" in doctrine, that I refused to give grace to those whom I believed were "wrong". It is from these memories, that I am reminded to Love those who are yet unable to see the wisdom in what Wesley has shared... for I was one of 'them' not that many years ago. :) If my heart was changed by God -- so too can theirs --but it will be in His Timing and in His Ways. :)

Still.... there is so much to really *hear* in Wesley's poem/epistle isn't there!

I am so thankful for "the testimonies" that have been left behind by those who walked this path before us! If we keep our eyes and ears open, we can see and hear the same work that the Spirit of the Lord is doing in our hearts.. and because these same teachings come from the hearts of those we, from our perspective, can see bore much fruit in the Kingdom of God, -- we know that we are indeed hearing and learning from the Spirit of God, that same faith which was delivered to the apostles of old.

May God use these testimonies again, in our day, as He continues to teach the brethren how to live together in love and in peace -- living daily in accord with our personal convictions (no compromise) but also in the recognition that we are also to let our brethren live in accord with their personal convictions too... and that what might appear to us (from this earthly perspective) to be an "either/or" situation, may not be quite that simple... and from the Heavenly perspective is seen in a much different light.

One who ever remembers, it is to the merciful, that mercy is promised to be given.

>From one sinner who has been forgiven so much!!
your sister, Linda

Yes Linda, you need not wonder. Taking sides is part of the process. Taking a position, whether right or wrong is part of coming to maturity and we must be allowed that freedom to learn from our own mistakes, if indeed we have the humility to recognize them. But unity for me is not just agreeing to disagree and then loving each other regardless. I know that is not what you are saying here but it must be said that true unity must be according to the side of truth or it is based upon false premises and cannot bring us to perfection. The point that I think that you are making is that we must be allowed to experiment a little in that development. So true and love is necessary for us to come together. And that is what history shows, I am a firm believer in progressive revelation, so was Wesley. But that is an easy position to take with any in the five-fold, we are in a process of coming to maturity "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Those that believe that the perfect has already come in the completion of the Bible or to any that think that God does not speak to us any more in the spiritual gifts have no recourse but to be stagnant in their learning except in intellectual assent or from the teaching of others that accept full revelation. They cannot accept us except in love that sees no wrong nor right, fine in itself but not to the point of speaking the same thing. That means that we must be diligent in taking stands that accord to sound doctrine, without them, there is only confusion and quenching of the spirit which in the long run will stifle love. We must be careful however, not to take opposite sides that still perpetuate the divisions merely out of disagreement with a false doctrine. Most controversies are due to misunderstandings on both sides.

In this case, we have two incompatible doctrines in which the controversy still rages today. To take the side of pre-destination against the free will to choose is to go against the word of God. To take the side of free-will against the pre-destined foreknowledge of God is to also go against the word of God. We are not about to go down this road again except as an example that we can be on the side of truth without taking sides with incompatible doctrine. True unity comes with a presence of peace and spiritual witness. Until that peace comes, there is conflict and a barrier to love.

For the record, I believe that Wesley was right and Whitefield was wrong on the point of contention. I know that this is your position also. But neither was entirely right nor entirely wrong. Now that we have a couple centuries to look at the problems, in hind-sight we can poke holes at both of them. But where Wesley was entirely right is exactly what you are saying here "the same work that the Spirit of the Lord is doing in our hearts," and that is the attitude of love and for both of them, the witness of the Spirit. The best parts of the relationship between Whitefield and Wesley was when they preached together, people got saved and they got sanctified and they both agreed that these were separate processes. This is the great truth that sparked the Great Awakening. No cheap grace there but those that preach cheap grace today will take the side of Whitefield now because sides were taken on a controversy that should never have been taken and repentance and a holiness doctrine suffered. It was left for future generations to sort it out and it still goes on. The Bible is the key but both sides are using the Bible as proof texts according to false premises that remain incompatible.

If we are to love each other in spite of our differences, it should last forever but as a problem solver, it should be a buffer to sort out what has caused these divisions in the church until we can truly speak as One, not merely love as an end to itself or the divisions and resentments and heresies and false doctrines will continue, bringing occasions for more hatred and disunity as a result.


Jay wrote:

I believe His people, (and they are responding to His call - one at a time) - who hear the call to repentance (at least I believe this for me) are to willingly take the sins of the church upon themselves - recognize -accept - confess - grieve - lament - seek forgiveness for the people - and speak when led by the Holy Spirit.

We take upon us the sins of the Crusaders in their murders of Muslims, we take upon us the sins of the Catholics killing Protestants and the Protestants killing Catholics. We repent for the murderous sins and all the lies of the false teachers for the mess that the church has become in the name of Jesus.


In sorrow I pray that we Americans and allies would repent from the heart in Jesus' Name for the murderous sins of our hatred and cruelty - for our horrid unlikeness of Christ towards Muslims that is going on even this very moment - for our trusting in the shadow of Egypt and leaning on the arm of flesh.

HE IS, therefore, I am, Stephen

Hi Jay

Heal Our Land

The sad thing about all this, is we have past the point of no-return. Behold I CREATE A NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH. The land does need healing and we modern day humans are doing everything we can to destroy the earth.

However even more important are ourselves the bride of the lamb. We must awake from our long sleep and worship God in spirit and in truth. For centuries the church has taught false doctrines and made itself a political regime. Anyone who has woken up and speak against the church was ex-communicated.

The church will stand forever, but we look forward to the approaching time when the evil that blinds the church (Whore of Babylon) will be removed. Recently I said to preacher in the church that we have become like Sodom and Gommorah. We pass laws that accept Gay and Lesbian as equal and normal. I was absolutely astonished when she said to me, we are not clear about the meaning of the Laws in the Bible. I did not answer her for straight away I recognized whom she is serving. There can be no doubt about the law, Thou shall not sleep with mankind as with womankind. This is the result of there intricate system of Theology and Intellectualizing of Gods words.


So now is the time for those who know the truth to hold on to the true worship of CHRIST in thought, word and Deed. May the will of God be done on Earth!

God Bless

James 1:18.---' He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures ' [RV].

Firstfruits ! The phrase might very well carry us back into the history of ancient peoples and savage religions. But in the New Testament, each time the phrase occurs, the spirit of it is ethical and devotional.

This is a great and splendid hope. Analyze the elements which have given it form and breath and it will be seen that age by age the blessing which is one day to be universally diffused is first found flourishing in the Christian Church. This is a corrective of the tendency to censoriousness directed against the Church of Christ, even as it is the unfailing antidote to the poison of pessimism. The Church is not perfect and never has been. It is not infallible. Infallibility is unknown amongst mortals. The Church, however Divine its origin, is human in its limitations. It is made up of human beings who are by nature children of wrath, not, that is to say, heirs of the anger of God---Paul never meant that---but wrathful children, creatures of impulse and of passion. Such impulses and passions the Christian, seeks to make subject to the higher law, ministrant to the higher life. But being what we are, not marble saints niched in cathedral aisles, but men and women, the Church is human, fallible, imperfect. Yet, all the same, the Church is the best organization upon the face of the earth at the present time. It is, so far as God has yet revealed Himself, His own most efficient instrument for accomplishing His will upon this earth. And while no candid person today dreams of denying that the record of the Church is stained and shamed by weaknesses, sins, and crimes, none the less is it true that, age by age, the blessing which is one day to be universally diffused is first found flourishing within the Church.

We may express this in two phrases---both true, each capable of justification in a life-time of historical research. First, the Church has been on the side of every evil which up to the present hour has been torn out of the life of civilization. Second, no evil has yet been torn out of the life of civilization except by the aid and inspiration of the Church. Those statements are not contradictory each of the other; each one is true in itself. The Church has sinned and has been on the side of colossal sins; but inside the Church, too, have been virtue raised to the highest point known among mortals and grace immortal and divine; and these have waged successful war against many wrongs, are waging war which must be successful against more, and bodying forth the promise of a day when righteousness shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. That is not to say that the whole Church is possessed by these excellences and virtues and graces. It is not to say that the Church holds on to them without any relaxation of grip. There have been sad aberrations. There have been periods of shameful decadence. But the point is that these virtues and excellences and graces are in the Church first, and they are the firstfruits of the after universal harvest.

Let us illustrate this point.

The story of slavery has often been told. It is easy to say that nothing will ever extenuate the guilt of the Church in its defense of human slavery. It is just as easy to say that nothing will ever sufficiently praise the virture of the Church in its opposition to slavery. And both statements are true. We recall stories of Christian people, slaveholders, slave dealers, and defenders of slavery. We recall just as readily stories of devotion and heroism and living glory incarnate in Christian men and women who had set themselves against it. The first ship that sailed from England on the diabolical errand of buying human beings in Africa and selling them in the West Indies bore---what a travesty !---the sacred name of Jesus. Think of man-stealers on board the "Jesus"! Hawkins, who was in command of her, was knighted by Queen Elizabeth, and his crest became a manacled negro. Two hundred years later there was in England an organization called "The Society for Propagating the Gospel in Foreign Lands". It sent missionaries to the coast of Guinea to convert the negros, but it owned plantations in the Barbados worked by its slaves, and it never made the slightest attempt to give Christian instructions to the victims of its own tyranny. John Newton, author of some of the loveliest lyrics in the whole world of Christian hymnody, author of that glorious hymn, "How sweet the name of Jesus sounds in a believer's ear," was a slave dealer.

These stories can be multiplied without end. But they are not any more true to the facts of history than the indubitable record that ancient civilizations, before the coming of Christ, never dreamed that slavery was wrong. The beginning as of emancipation are to be found in the history of the early Church. The appeal, if appeal is necessary, can be made to the non-Christian historians who have shown by chapter and verse, with convincing lucidity and with irrefutable instances, that the Church of the living God let loose upon society those burning principals which melted the shackles off the negro's limbs and decreed that the slave should fall and the man arise. The spiritual liberty with which Christ had made His people free was as the firstfruits of a harvest of social and political liberty.

All this can be said, with the necessary change of phrasing, about personal purity and holiness. The two things are not the same. No man would expect to be listened to for five minutes if he claimed that the Church had been free from conspicuous failures in this regard. Licentiousness of the flesh and licentiousness of the spirit have alike marked its course. But neither should any man be regarded as well instructed who did not recognize that everything we know upon the face of the earth today of personal purity and of holiness began in the Church of God.

If we open our Plato we see how that supremely lofty spirit broods with a despairing sadness over the sins which were eating out the vigor and character of his nation. Plato could conceive of three principles or forces breaking up these particular evils. First, piety, or love to a divine person; second, desire for honor, or the respect of the good; and third, love of moral beauty; though he was compelled to add "these be perhaps romantic aspirations." Yet the merest tyro in historical study knows that the three forces of which he dreamed were in an especial and Divine manner brought into the world by Jesus of Nazareth: ' Love to a Divine person; the respect of the good, that is to say, of His own followers; and the lofty feeling for moral beauty.' Wherever among the nations we find today a principle of purity at work we know very well that it has been brought into existence, sustained, and fostered by the Church. And as for holiness---not goodness merely, not love merely, not enthusiasm, but enthusiastic love of goodness, sublimed to ecstasy---it is doubtful whether outside the Church there has ever been a holy man in this world. Yet most of us treasure the memory of at least one person whom we have at one time known to whom we would not deny the epithet, and these have been brought forth of His will by the word of truth as a kind of firstfruits of His creatures, a promise of what mankind shall be.

This gospel of firstfruits is everywhere justified by the ascertained and treasured results of human struggle. Hopes which were once the secret strength of the aspiring, the consecrated and the great, are now the commonplace possession of us all. We know where the liberty of the soul was born. We know where its deathless words were first spoken. We know with what pen and with what ink its messages were written. It was born in the Christian Church. Its cradle was a prison cell. It was spoken by lips that torture failed to silence. It was written by fettered hands. It was inscribed in the blood of the martyrs. It grew in conflict with persecuting monarchies and hierarchies and assertive intolerance's which would crush free conscience beneath the heel of the priest, and compel the Spirit of God to work through channels which kings approved. These pioneers of liberty were the firstfruits of the harvest we have reaped.

Now, what has all this to teach us?---though indeed it is teaching itself all the way. Well, first, let us believe that we are the firstfruits, the pledge of the world's redemption. Why, if we could be persuaded to believe this, to believe it realizing earnestness; if the ministry of the Word, could burn into our very soul the assurance of it, enthusiasms would be kindled in the heart of every one of us, uncontrollable, contagious, invincible, so that wherever we went it would have to be said of us as of the people who were the firstfruits of apostolic laborers, ' the men who have turned the world upside-down have come hither also.'

We need to hold on to this truth of Scripture, to this truth of religion, this truth which is impressed upon the heart of God, that we who what we are, with whatsoever virtues and graces we possess, with whatsoever longings for the emancipation of the world's heart from the slave of sin, are the firstfruits of His creatures. Are we beating our heart out against some of the problems of our time? Do we writhe beneath a sense of injustice? Are we longing supremely for the day when man's inhumanity to man shall cease to make countless thousands mourn? And have we allowed our outlook upon the future to be darkened by the sins and sorrows of today? Then out only misfortune is that we are a little before our time? We have projected our souls into the infinite and we are not infinitely strong to transform and transfigure the present by the light of our radiant faith; but the world will come round to us yet ! Let us be true to the truth we feel to be true, and let us not fear to fling at the feet of any evil the gage of battle, strong in the faith that still overcometh the world.

In Christ, Timothy.
our Lord comes

In blessings of God's love,

I agree in here is some way just like the other mail i had received.

i enjoy reading.

and i can feel the move of the HS upon the articles.

God Bless,


And I sought for a man among them -- that should make up the hedge -- and stand in the gap before Me for the Land, that I should not destroy it.... but I found NONE.

Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the Fire of My Wrath;

Their own way, have I recompensed upon their heads.. saith the Lord God. Ezek 22:30-31

I sought for a man among them that should make up the hedge and stand in the gap before Me for the Land.... He still looks for this man -- a man now, in whom dwells His Son -- the One who intercedes for the sake of fallen humanity. Does He not now finally have many men who will make up the hedge.. and stand in the gap before Him, for the sake of the land -- reminding Him: 'in wrath, remember mercy!'.... crying out in intercession, standing between the porch and the altar: 'Spare Your People' Oh God! Have mercy!

Yet without such a man - or men... His only recourse is: "Their own way" have I recompensed upon their heads....

Infinite Justice says... as you do, so shall it be done unto you... Be wise dear ones.. 'Forgive, that it might be forgiven you'. 'Be merciful, that you might receive mercy'. For as you have done unto the least of these My brethren, you have done unto Me....

Stand in the gap, make up the hedge -- be your brother's intercessor... for such a heart as this our Father seeks!

To the Faithful, You show Yourself Faithful.
To the Blameless, You show Yourself Blameless.
To the Pure, You show Yourself Pure.
But to the Crooked, You show Yourself Shrewd.
You save the humble -- but Your Eyes are on the haughty to bring them low. (2 Sam 22:26)

Love, Linda ~~ bondslave of Love

Hi all,

If we are in any way nervous about attaching a label of "wrong" to anyone, or to a belief of doctrine, is it possible that what we would really like to do underneath what we say, is to affirm that we are "right"?

If we attempt to find unity by smudging over the errors in our speech and beliefs etc. we are going up the wrong road and allowing room for a whole lot of stuff that amounts to religion, replacing religion with religion, we have got nowhere.

Being wrong is essential to growth: in that none of us is perfect, none of us is right either. It isn't "us" with the Truth, it is Jesus who IS the Truth, and we, who have been, and are, and will continue to be in error to some degree until we meet with Him at last, need to be in the habit of confronting this in ourselves. Since we are the body, and God desires unity to be real, we need to move as the body towards Truth, which does mean that we are required to confront error in each other too. Being wrong ought not to be scary to us, it should be essential!

We need not fear that some will be afraid to speak at all if we confront "wrongness" - beginning at ourselves, if we could be more open about our mistakes and "wrongness" it is such a good invitation to others to do the same, not so that we can say "yes, you were right after all", but so that what we have done personally in writing ourselves off (I hope) can now be done corporately, and we can put behind us all error.

It is not love to allow others to continue in error when we have the power to rescue them from it, it is something else, but it is not love. We do need the real stuff, the love of God, if we are going to minister to each other in this way, and we haven't got it if we are pursuing our own personal agenda on an issue, privately wanting ourselves to be seen as right. I need you guys to tell me where I am going wrong, I can't always see it, you have a duty to point out error, or I am alone again in a sea of religion with none to help.

This unity is not won by clever argument, it is wrought in God, and if it isn't, I don't want it. If Jesus is in me, and he is in you, that is unity. We have our common Truth. Everything else we lay over the top of it to conceal it is falsehood, and speaking for myself, I have had quite enough of that.

Love to you

It's true, we will never find that man to stand in the gap except as we join together to be that perfect man in Christ Jesus. More and more, we are learning this. Many men and women are coming together to form that man-child that will grow to maturity. That's exciting isn't it. But as we praise God for including us in that great company, it is only bitter-sweet. I have for some time now thought that the ministers weeping between the porch and the altar were tears of remorse because what is between the porch and the altar was left desolate to them. What is between the porch and the altar is the doorway and the sanctuary, the pews, the congregation, where the people are supposed to be. What a mess that man has made of things. We are not to be commended, we are deserving of condemnation and a judgment of guilty. I know that I am. The more that I want to be a man chosen to stand in the gap, the more undeserving I realize that I am.

I thought maybe my last message may be misunderstood in that love is said to be a buffer long enough for us to come together. I am responding to Mary here as well as Linda and Sue, since God is love, that is a supreme truth no matter how we apply it but so is the unity necessary for us to speak as One. The prayer of Jesus to be as One gives us a responsibility to answer that prayer the best we can. It will the power of God guiding our steps but unless we step out in faith and take that first step, there are no steps to guide. It has to be according to truth but truth in love or it will not stand the final test of unity. We will never truly think exactly alike, we might as well just accept that fact. But division is a grievous sin and must be dealt with and restored to the purity that existed before the church fell from the first love. Feel free to disagree with me and we can love each other anyway but as Mary suggests here, we have the power to rescue others from error "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

I was reading the other day, maybe it was something that David Wilkerson said, you may have heard it, that if God does not judge America for her sins, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah. Not just America of course, there is enough condemnation to go around for the entire world but where we start is with ourselves before the saints can ever judge the world. This then makes us an example to others rather than finger pointing judgmental self-righteousness. They will know us by our love. I have spent a lot of time at the keyboard but little time on my knees. I need to change.

We have come to the point in time where the reproach has come. The world cannot believe a divided church that fights among themselves. We should all be bond slaves to love. We should all take this affection that we have for each other and lift up our hearts to the Lord with the words of Joel: "Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach."


Hi my brother,

The operative parts of this scripture is repentance and it is directed not to the heathen or the unsaved but to MY People, who are called by MY Name.

I agree wholeheartedly with you here!!

It cannot be overemphasized that Christians need to know what their sins are before they can repent of them. That means coming to the light so that they can be exposed. The church through the centuries have committed grievous wrongs in the name of Jesus for the sake of the traditions of men and the doctrines of demons.

Man has exhalted man to take the place of the Holy Spirit. Man has put dependance on MAN'S teaching , instead of God's Truths. They claim to believe God's Word, AS LONG AS IT IS IN AGREEMENT WITH MAN'S TEACHING!

not so much interpretation of scripture as it is in its application.

Without the true interpretation from the Holy Spirit, there is really no applying!! We can't apply what we don't know. To apply MAN'S interpretation is to do what we always did, before we accepted Jesus, just go along thinking like the Adamic nature, has always thought.

If it was judgment, it was not judgment as yet from God but as a result of our own sins as a church and as a nation. We reap what we sow.... I had received several insulting letters this time for even suggesting that Christians in America are worshipping mammon.

I too believe this. I , also, rec'd the same kind of email. The truth cuts like a two edged sword, but the cutting is for the good of those He loves..... (On Lucifer) I saw , when I studied out "Lucifer", that it was the Adamic man after the fall... does this not describe what MAN, Christians with the Adamic understanding, has done? Instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to teach and lead us?

He will not heal our land until we humble ourselves and turn, that is repentance pure and simple.

This is the answer to the whole mess that we are in!! ALL glory and credit MUST be given to HIM, we MUST realize this!!

Or don't they matter?

Yes each one of these does matter. Father showed me last week, there is going out, an Esther Company, worldwide. He is doing a work through a people, who has taken what has been placed within them, and they are using all of it. HIS anointing, HIS power, HIS knowledge, His love, everything that HE brought into each one of us, when He made His abode in us, but, most don't even know what all they do have within, this Esther Company have found out what is within them, and NOW they are using ALL of it, to save HIS people.

Be blessed my brother,

Linda Keith

Christ Manifest Daily In You!!
We Are Who He Says We Are!!


Hi Linda,

Thanks for the comments, we are of the same mind. As far as interpretation preceding application, I am glad to be able to expand a little on what I failed to elaborate on adequately. Although correct interpretation is of course sooooo important, it is useless without the application. It is like what Paul teaches in that we can understand all knowledge and mysteries and faith but without charity, we are nothing. Or like Saint James says that faith without works is dead, being by itself. Even though we can understand the bible correctly, if it is not applied correctly in our lives, then it has done us no good. We need to be doers of the word and not hearers only. This is the problem with so many pew warmers in the church today that they get there, hear the sermon, praise the Lord and then go back into the world without the application.



Hi Jay, I agree with you 100%, my brother.

You know, I am always amazed at what Christians miss that is so obvious. I recently spent 2 weeks in Fla at my sister's house. She is a Mormon, but also attends a strict southern Baptist church, with some friends of hers! LOL!! Bless her heart. I did get to minister to her Mormon Bishop and her Baptist friends. The denominations didn't bother me, I don't look at that, I see Christ in them, regardless of what church they attend. BUT, I was so amazed that all of them, are still trying to live by the 10 commandments. I showed them Gal 5:3-5. They, at first wanted to argue the point, but as I remained silent, the Baptist man said, "You know, I've never noticed that before." He then turned to his wife and said, "Honey, you had better get out of that group that's fighting to get the 10 commandments back in the school." What a blessing that was. You know, some think that we can just sort of overlook "the small" things in the Word. The Mormon Bishop was quiet, but I could see that he was doing some thinking. When he ask, what I thought of us going to war, all I could say, was, "well my brother, If we are to look at our PATTERN, Jesus, for all moves to be made, I don't think we would have seen Him taking His troops to war."

But, it's wonderful to know that Father is truly doing a work in His people.

While I was there, Father woke me 3 nights in a row at 4:45AM. All 3 times He spoke to me about the Book of Esther. The 3rd night HE spoke to me and said that there is an Esther Company that He is sending into all parts of the world and among all peoples. In the Book of Esther, I saw the king, as King Jesus, Mordecai, as the Holy Spirit and Esther as the manifested sons of God. Each time, I read where the king said to Esther, "What is thy request, it shall be performed, even to the half of the kingdom." Father spoke to me, "the half of the Kingdom is BELIEVING MY WORD, the other half is APPLYING IT!!" It told me so much of His plans for this Esther Company, and when I read your email, I was sure that you meant what I thought you meant about the application, but I just had to be sure. I think this is conformation (what you said, about application) for me. So, my brother, I want to thank you very much and following the leading of the Spirit and sending out that email.

Much love in Christ, Linda Keith

Jay wrote.. "I have for some time now thought that the ministers weeping between the porch and the altar were tears of remorse because what is between the porch and the altar was left desolate to them. What is between the porch and the altar is the doorway and the sanctuary, the pews, the congregation, where the people are supposed to be. What a mess that man has made of things. We are not to be commended, we are deserving of condemnation and a judgment of guilty. I know that I am. The more that I want to be a man chosen to stand in the gap, the more undeserving I realize that I am. ...."

Yes Amen and Amen, Jay :) ... we MUST be shown the true state of our own blackened hearts! This is the good soil of humility. This is the truth revealed in the Song of Song's Grand and Glorious Love Story between the Bridegroom and His Bride. She (we) are yet darkened by our years working in the vineyards of earth. We do still have black hearts -- no matter how long we have been pursuing our Beloved -- for He is the Glory -- He is the HOPE of Glory within us. We have no goodness - except Him. Only God is Good, Jesus taught ... does that not apply to us too? The only goodness in us, is God!

This truth about our black hearts, is the judgment we must embrace and always declare: it is all about Him, now and forevermore. We have been set apart to be monuments of His Kindness, His Mercy --Paul's letter to the Ephesians reveals this mystery! We ARE undeserving, and it is from that revelation that we, clothed in Christ, can stand in the gap, can be the hedge around those we are called to weep for, to pray for, to repent for ... and in that place of heartfelt grief, we can sincerely cry out to our Beloved, standing between them and Him: "Spare Your People" Lord!!..

We have been spared -- though we never "deserved" it, and from that place of undeserved mercy (Grace) our cry for Mercy must be birthed. We must not be like the elder brother of the prodigal -- but rather like Christ, who was willing to lay down His Life for the sake of His Brothers... Can we do any less than this? Would not God have spared Sodom and Gomorrah if He had heard this cry from the righteous? If there had been any whose cries reached up to Him, would He not have spared the city?

Does God WANT to pour Judgment out upon the earth? According to Ezekiel, He does not want to...

What He wants is for a man to appear who will cry out to Him to spare His People. Will there finally be that man, whose hearts has been conformed to the Heart of Christ (which is the exact representation according to the Hebrew letter.. the exact representation of the Heart of God) -- who would be willing to die in the place of his brothers? (Paul was willing, and Moses, and Esther), willing to take upon themselves the Wrath of God, for the sake of their brethren?.. willing to take upon themselves the Judgment of God for the sake of our brethren? THIS is the image of Christ.. this is the image that we are supposed to be 'being conformed' to!

Are we conformed to that image yet? -- or have we chosen in our imperfection to choose another image to be conformed to? I believe many have taken upon themselves the image of the old testament prophet and not Christ at all.. one from the types and shadows who longed for and yet not yet seen "This Day".. one who longed to see the day when Mercy and Judgment would kiss, when Mercy would triumph over Judgment - in Christ Jesus.

We MUST realize that the GLORY of God is the Standard, and the Glory of God is absolute Perfection. --"We" continue to fall short of that standard, so how dare we speak judgment upon our brothers? Dare the stove call the kettle black? We might not be an abortionist, but do we have hate in our hearts? Is Bin Laden any worse than you or me? Is the average American any worse than those of us who have the Light and yet do not walk in it. How dare we speak judgment upon anyone else.. while we are yet this imperfect ourselves?

Everytime that subtle little lie of "comparison between ourselves" begins to bear fruit in our heart, the Word of God MUST come forth, as the Divine and Holy Mirror that He is.. and show us our own fallingshortness; the Law must come forth and kill us again ... for there is not one yet perfect man, save Christ Himself! Until we re-affirm our own great **ongoing-need** for a Savior, we cannot see our brother correctly -- because of the blinding that is caused by the prideful-beam radiating from our own eyes. Christ Alone is the hope of Glory. He Alone is the perfection that meets the standard. If we boast, let us boast in Christ Jesus Alone.. for He is our All in All.

As far as even thinking that we know "truth" -- what have we that we didn't receive? Until we no longer know "in part" we must constantly remind ourselves that we do not know the whole truth yet... we are still like the blind man feeling the different parts of the elephant and then describing what we know is "the truth". We are daily growing in grace and the knowledge of Him who is the Truth, but the more we learn about Him, the more we realize that we don't know!

We need to be reminded of Jesus' own teaching ... that Blasphemy against Him would be forgiven. If in our blindness (although often times good intentions) we misunderstand what He has revealed about Himself -- and we build denominations around a certain facet of His Revealing.. and in that blindness we blaspheme Him.. will He not forgive us?

He has promised that He will... and if He has grace and forgiveness for us in our blindness.. can we not find it in our hearts to also forgive those we think are blaspheming Him? May the Holy Spirit breathe His Life into that thought... for I am certain there is a great key to the Unity of the Faith contained in that teaching by Jesus.

May we Love others even as we ourselves are Loved. May we be reminded that we do not know the whole truth yet... the universe cannot contain all the books that could be written about Him.. the one our hearts ADORE.

your sister in the Faith, Linda

Truth in terms of doctrine is what God in His mercy has showed us, His children. Truth in that matter is relative. Truth is what we can bear, and step by step our heavenly Father reveals more. Not just on a corporate level, but also personal. Truth is what we can understand and digest at a certain point in our life as child of God. When that life become more mature, sometime God decides it's time to shatter the old truth and replace it with a new one. One which was always there, but the Lord till now never opened our eyes. Our faith till then was not strong enough to bear the sudden change in dynamics.

When you're not ready yet, you will label the doctrine that you cannot bear or understand as false (and yes, label ourselves right). Usually we turn down a truth, because within our mindset (the storehouse of truths that we accepted and hold dear), it gives a conflict. What we usually do not do, or are afraid to do, is inspect the storehouse with the new truth in our hand, and re-evaluate the truth that we have in store.

Let me give you an example: when we talk about the subject of pre-destination, this is rejected even before the ball is pitched, because we have heard about John Wesley, and free will of man, and the fact that man needs to choose to believe or as we say accept the grace. Further we've seen the effect of this doctrine, and it is rejected based on its fruits.

In a 'common' mindset these are opposite doctrines, because either you are free to choose, or you are a robot. The main question is do you dare to open your mind and question if they are really opposite, and if we have not overamplified the power of free will, which the natural man holds dearly, or overextended the limit of free. Since the Bible mentions both an invitation, and that we do not boast in ourselves, since it is all a work from God, and God has pre-determined a destination for His people, there must be a greater truth hidden here.

Also we reject pre-destination, because the common mindset has the truth that you will burn in endless torment in Hell if you do not believe in Jesus during your time of life on earth. We cannot picture let alone love a God which is that cruel to His own children (Adam is a son of God), hence we move the responsibility to man. We do believe however, because it is in plain text in the Bible, that God chose Abram, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, and in Jacob the people of Israel, and they seem to be able to get away with a little judgement here and there (compared to the picture of Hell), since the book is clear that all Israel will be saved.

So in 'sound' doctrine as we call it at the time we 'see the light' there may be many inconsequences. Things which contradict each other, things which are not 'justifiable', and things that do not make sense. The reason being that we do not dare to step into the storehouse of our mindset and re-evaluate truth.

If we cannot be open-minded, then at some point we'll need shocktherapy to keep growing. The ship we trusted in may get in such havoc, that we throw the wheat in the sea, to be able to survive. At that point there is room for God to teach.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Being poor in spirit is not just at the moment you receive Christ. It's an ongoing state of being. Be teachable in spirit. When we talk about doctrinal truth, it makes sense to me to not accuse it to be false, but to give reason why YOU believe this not to be true, and let the Lord shine His light on the issue. A rejection of a truth does not do anything for someone. Explaining the foundation of the matter may be instrumental in the Lords revelation.

I searched the Word to find if we are destined to SPEAK AS ONE. Quite interesting what I found:

Job 2:10 But he said to her, "You SPEAK AS ONE of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

I believe Jesus prayed for us to be 'one with the father' and 'one with each other'. "Make them one as we are one". To me, this means union with God, and live in the light as He gives it, which may be different color of light compared to my brother or sister. People in history have tried to get a common mindset among christians. History proofs, that this is not bringing unity. Once you start building a book of sound doctrine you stand the chance to create a jail for yourself. When this happens in a group, the forces that build the jail are much stronger. Our understanding is so limited, we are on a road to destruction if we want to reach 'agreement' on matters. We can point the way we know, tell what we have learned, share the revelation the Lord has given us, keep growing, and receive more light.

Please remember, in the new covenant it is God who writes His law in our minds and our hearts. What we can do is teach, and share, and be the Lord's instruments in showing the way as the Lord has shown us, but also being shown the way as the Lord has shown others.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Yours in Christ,


Hi all,

Well Hans, your letter is pasted below, I will need to refer to it. I have got to say that your comment "we do not dare to step into the storehouse of our mindset and re-evaluate truth" - is one that reflects a view I have lovingly held, and I might say I have upset a number of people with it in my time. Don't you find, though, that the mind is such a changeable thing, it is inclined to host many phantom belief systems at any one time, that it is possible to speak what is on our mind to one person, believing that we have given the full and honest view, only to find that to someone else we have completely contradicted ourselves whilst being at the same time thoroughly convinced of our honesty? This is my own experience, my mind is full of horror like this.

And then there is the heart, do you find, that there is a cause for which you feel yourself aching passionately, and willing to abandon all human responsibilities in order to see through your role in that cause and bring about a rightful conclusion, only to discover that in the process you have failed to meet the needs of the family, and the people nearest home? I do this, my heart is full of that kind of horror too.

Speaking of doctrine, a few years back when a beloved Bible teacher turned out to be a serial adulterer, and tried it on with me, I ran around my home town looking for a church to enter, looking for comfort, a Word from the Lord, brethren to hold me. I ran into a place where the board outside said "Clive Full Gospel Hall" - it had to be the place to go. I was met by an elder who said, first, had I got a letter with me from my previous church? No. Then, I hadn't got a hat on and did I realize the Word required me to wear one? A Bible was brought to the door and the relevant passage read. On the basis of these two things I was refused entry. I ran away down the road crying and more desperate than ever.

There is an awful lot of error about, including error that can be proved truth intellectually, legalistically, docrinally or in any other human method of approach. Error is in us. Falsehood is in us. Openmindedness seems like a good idea, but "Christmindedness" is better. I am not sure that "explaining the matter" does much to convert the idea into action: I can hear what you say and agree with you wholeheartedly, but am I able to change what I do? But if in error you see me unkindly reproach someone, and because you love me as a sister and see that my inappropriate response springs from, let's say, a buried hurt, you would be correct in bringing it to my notice, and if you were more concerned about me than yourself, you would do it in a way that worked, discerning the error and correcting it, all in the love of God, without concern for how it might appear to others. Then because I am your sister, and I love you too, I would recognize what you were saying was right because, well we know, don't we? and since the Lord was in the process from the beginning placing in me the DESIRE to be blameless, I need only to give it over to Him and count on His promise to bring it to pass, for instance Psalm 37, 4+5 "Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. 5)Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass."

Our Ed is a good example of how this works. You know, I failed him quite a bit over that discussion we had, and Jay brought out some points that I would have been far too scared to, but it was a beautiful thing to me to see Ed's dignity and humility in response to Jay, the evidence of Christ indwelling, and such a rush of unstoppable love poured out as I felt my heart join with his - it was real fellowship of the Godly sort, although our minds were as far apart as possible at one point.

I know I have failed to express myself well again in this letter, forgive me, I will get better with practice. I think to summarize it, I am saying that what truly unites us is the Lord, and I am refusing to accept as real any manifestation of disunity: it conceals the Truth. I know you are in Christ, and I am too. We differ in many things, but amongst the clutter of our personalities is the wonder of "Christ in you the hope of glory" Christ in us, our righteousness, our goodness, our Truth, dignity, and all other lovely things. I trust you with the horror of my "old man", I trust you not to place me on the rubbish tip, but I love you in Christ, and am united with you and all others who belong to Him. Praise His lovely Name!


Hi Mary,

I do find that the mind is a changeable thing, and I do experience, that my heart is passionate for one thing to abandon another thing. That is indeed very painful.

With regards to the elder who denied you access. If you or I had said to him that he was wrong, would that have helped a bit ? To be honest, I don't think so. There could have been a strong man, who forced access to the church, but that would not have changed his point of view, and it would have happened again to another person at another time. What is needed is a renewal of the mind, and that happens only when the Lord speaks. I believe that pointing at error does not change a thing, but sharing and explaining the truth does.

The other example you give, where you unkindly reproach someone, and I tell you that it is wrong and you should stop, there I would only be the one that gives you a signal, because you already know that it is an error. If you thought it was the right thing to do, you would only stop once you understand that it is an error, and not because an incidental passenger tells you.

In the case of Ed, Jay asked explanation of his thoughts, and I tried to help understand what was said, to get a clear picture, such that we can talk about it in an understandable way. After that we heard his testimony, but the view as far as I understood has not changed. If we were simply to label this as false doctrine, then that is the end of the conversation.

The point I was trying to get across (and I agree with your rephrase to Christmindness), is that living with the Lord is dynamic. Not only in experience, but also in understanding. There are points in time when the Lord sends a beam of light down into your heart and mind, which upsets your dearly held views of reality. When you guard your mind with doctrines, the experience is going to be painful, and cost you a lot. We have to be prepared to leave all behind (including doctrines) to follow the Lord when he comes along.

If you want to help others, who you believe to be in error, you have to explain why, and pray for understanding. But also be prepared to change yourself, when you hear something new or old explained in a different way.

Bless you,


Hi Edward, Linda, everyone,

I think I will just have to accept that I don't say things very prettily, but I'm going to keep going anyway! Ed, I can see you have a great sense of humour, and I'm really glad I made you laugh - you made me laugh at myself too at the thought of it. Boy! I'm glad those days are over.

What you said Ed about pulling together is I suppose what is at the bottom of what I feel we ought to be doing, if we are going to be getting anywhere near that spotless bride we want to be. We are talking repentance, personally and collectively, but repentance can't even begin without acknowledgement of wrongdoing, collectively and personally, and since we are being built together in love ought we not to create a fellowshipping environment where we can confess our faults and be on the lookout for each other in case one of us is overtaken in a fault. I don't want to continue in error, and I find it still quite easy to make mistakes. We know the Holy Spirit brings things to our notice, but we can and do ignore Him, otherwise the church wouldn't be in the state it is in.

I don't know if we connect enough with each other. I think we are afraid to let the guard down and allow others to see how we are failing. I think I want to be able to fail in front of you (oh, it is scary to say that) and I want to be myself, not the person I aim to be, if you see what I mean. It is easy to get the impression that everyone is doing so much better at everything Spiritual when we all put forward our best sides all the time. If I have found out one thing in the years since I got saved it is that what people say and what they do are two completely different things. But here where we meet I think there is something really special happening, I think we are starting to connect, we are reaching out and touching. Are we ready to expose a little more of ourselves to each other and are we ready to accept a little more of each other as we open up? Sure gets the love flowing like nothing else.

Many of us have had wilderness experiences, we still have loneliness, we need fellowship: we have been a long time hanging onto the Lord and longing to be joined with loving brethren. We have reached out in the past and got nothing but trouble. But things are changing now aren't they? We are surely on the home stretch. There are things that have hindered us for far too long. We know what unity means in our minds and in our hearts and through the Holy Spirit. Now it has to become our experience, and when it does it will be a welcome "first" for me at least.

Much love in Jesus,

Dear Jay,

There is a separation of the physical and the spiritual church going on. You are right. The time for repentance is now. To know what we need to repent from we need to pray to the Holy Father, beg him to enlighten us, and some times it helps to just talk to him about the things that you feel are wrong. Jesus is very loving and very kind. He understands all our problems and ways. The problem right now is that we always hear about being scourged and read about it and are told about it. However so far this is the first time it has ever been allowed to happen inside the United States. The people of Russia and in African areas receive their scourging daily. You can read that they have untold numbers of converts in these countries You know Jay myself, I have just come out of a kind of shock after the after the latest happenings in New York. 99% of the population in America does not believe that something this horrifying can or will happen, even now. Most people that I have talked too refuse to talk about it, or believe it is just a happening or an event caused by terrorists, they will not give in to the belief that Jesus Christ loves us and wants us to be his children, in loving unity with him, and that whomever Jesus loves he allows to be scourged. Jesus only wants those who truly want him. This is the only way Jesus is going to set up a nation or a Promised Land for his people. If we want Jesus, then tell him so, that is if you truly want to conform your life and life styles to Jesus' life and lifestyle. If we want to change, then tell Jesus so, and the Holy Spirit will see to it that you conform your life and your way of thinking to the way of Jesus.

For instance, Jesus feels that kindness is intelligence. How much kindness do you see in the world today? Do we actually try to help the members of our families today with their problems when we are needed or do we just turn and run or stand and criticize them? Do we love our neighbors as ourselves or just ignore them? I wander how many people has their heads buried in the sand like an old ostrich? You know an ostrich position is a very dangerous position , because we cannot defend our selves and others with our heads in the sand.

In my church that I go to the comment was made that " Just wait until it dawns on you that Jesus does not even exist and neither does God Almighty, and that the kingdom of god is what we make of it right now here upon this earth." Can you imagine that statement, Jay? God Almighty did not create the earth , nor did he give us his word, nor did he bring his Holy Church together. This is just some of the demonism I have encountered since I became a catholic. The people who believe this sit and worship Jesus Christ as I do. Also , Jay to show you just how far this goes up into Jesus Christ church, I was taking a class on the book of Revelation and its symbolic language, and during the length of the course I was repeatedly told that the symbolism of the book of Revelation applies only to the times of the apostles and to no other time period. That statement in itself is false . This is a nun who in reality is a very great teacher, her messages she teaches far and wide. So Jesus Christ people are being taught falsehoods, we do not know the purity, simplicity, and truth of Gods word because of false teachers. In essence we are being born along by in some instances by the spirit of satan or the ruler of this world who was cast out of heaven because of his insane and selfish desire to be the light of this world. Satan is no more qualified to be the light of anything because of the war that he and his evil angels declared in heaven against the True Light of the World, Jesus Christ. Jesus is our alpha and omega, our priest and our king. Can you understand why our people are so confused and reluctant to repent of their sins. It might be good if from this day forward that with every mass that we go to, before we go there, that we ask Jesus and the Holy Spirit to guide us in every way of our lives and let us only receive the Truth concerning Gods Word and nothing else. If we take religious classes let us pray to receive only instruction befitting of Jesus Christ word and nothing more. Also if the nothing more occurs please let us have the good sense to get out of the classes.

Let us all rebel against satan and his deceitfulness. Let us be not satisfied with anything but the purity, love, and kindness of Jesus word. If we sin or make a mistake do not be afraid to confess it . We absolutely people cannot allow ourselves to cover our sins over as if they did not matter anyway. All matters must be brought to the light instead of secreting them in our minds. When we go to confess this is a sacrament provided for us by the one most high Jesus Christ. When we actually confess and it is the truth no matter what has occurred we are asking Jesus to please forgive us and that we want to restore our relationship with our Holy Father like it should be. Then we can go to the Holy Father in our dreams hug him and hold him and kiss him and caress his hands and in return he will hold us and hug us and when this happens we can wake up in a state of complete serenity. People always remember the Holy Father loves you with all his heart and mind and spirit. Do you remember when Moses was dieing the statement that he made? The statement Moses made was "The people will never be satisfied until they have God Almighty completely." Lets take Moses at face value, he was a man, in the flesh, just as we are. He was born along by God Almighty to lead a nation of millions out of captivity and into the Promised Land. Moses knew God and had a very close and personal relationship with him. Moses spoke with God or prayed several hours out of the day with him . Moses knew God was their leader and had no doubts in his mind of God Almighty's existence. The reason the Israelites never received the Promised Land and to this day have not received it is because of the sins that we commit, and once committed we do not repent from them. To repent from a sin means to STOP THAT SIN, and to confess it . It also means for us to learn how to love and obey our Holy Father with all our hearts, minds and bodies.

Well here we are once again people on the brink of receiving the Promised Land. Once again we are being given the privilege of possibly being with the Holy Father. Do we actually love Jesus and his word? If we do then now is the time for real repentance and changing of our lives. As Jesus said himself "I am the light of the world and whosoever believes in me will have eternal life with me." Question, Do we really believe that Jesus made this earth and all things in it for nothing?

Thank you,
Moms blue pen.


I agree Mom,

Repentance involves confession as well as contrition. We must also be able to ask for forgiveness, this is part of our faith in the One that has the power to forgive us of our sins. Non-believers can repent, they can even forgive but it is our faith in the One that grants eternal life and our dependence on Him that we are justified.


As long as we filter everything through our mind's ability to comprehend -- or though our emotions -- we remain vulnerable to the manipulation of man

Dearest Linda,

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Gal. 5:22-23 These are all both experiences and expressions of emotion given by the Spirit in our spirits. In fact, they are descriptive of the very feeling nature of Christ Himself. Our emotionality is inextinguishably intermingled with our spiritual life. An example of this is Nehemiah's exuberant declaration that the joy (an emotion) of the Lord is our (spiritual) strength. Definitely there is a carnal, soulish, manipulative use of the emotional life by man and the demonic and I strongly suspect is that to which you refer. Regarding filtering perceptions and experiences through our emotions which I believe is your point, when we lose the joy in our lives, even in the midst of stormy weather toss, I believe we ought to look again at the Scripture that says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. This is but one example among many throughout Scripture as to the interplay of God's design of our make up between the emotional and the spiritual. The Lord is emotionally present and wants us emotionally whole. Will we be emotionally present to Him? Will we be made whole? Will we be emotionally vulnerable in life's experiences to the revelation and demonstration of His emotions to us? May He have His way.

Incendium Amoris,

"It is not love to allow others to continue in error when we have the power to rescue them from it, it is something else, but it is not love...."

Dearest Mary, Grace and Peace -- and LOVE to you. :) What I have discovered in my ongoing "education" by the Spirit of Truth -- is that much of what I had learned as "wrong" (in other's doctrines) were 'wrong' because we have so often judged a "spiritual truth", by a natural man's understanding. Rather than asking the Spirit of Truth to show us the Truth -- we look on the outward and judge the spiritual happening by our surface understanding of it -- never going beneath the surface to find the core element of the truth which birthed the teaching.

For example: We Protestants, have been taught that the Catholic veneration of Mary as the Mother of God is wrong -- that it is idol worship and as such, is a doctrine which is leading many to hell-fire-and damnation....

And yet when the Spirit of the Lord begins to unveil the truth of Mary's position as a type and shadow -- as a type of firstfruits of "The Church" -- and as a type of "The Bride" -- One who did indeed overcome -- and as an overcomer, is even now seated with Christ Jesus upon His Throne in the Heavenlies (as promised by Jesus Himself)... then we can begin to see and understand from the Spiritual perspective just what it is and why it is that all the liturgical churches have retained in their doctrines, teachings about Mary. We won't worship her (and of course neither do they) -- but we do begin to understand Mary as a "type'/shadow" of what we all should be; She is a prophetic picture of all that we are to become as Christ is formed in our hearts by faith too.. ... she is indeed His Mother, meeting the criteria established by Jesus: as one who did the Will of His Father! (May we too, be His Mother -- His sisters and His brothers -- by our obedience to the Will of the Father! )

Now in the name of "right" we could fight over all these doctrines about Mary -- (and many of us have) -- or we can humble ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit, if there is 'something' that we are just not yet understanding.... often times, this is the case, if we are willing to let Him renew our minds!

As we humble ourselves, remaining teachable by the Holy Spirit, then we can understand the spiritual teachings, through the Spirit and we begin to understand our brother's conviction -- When this happens enough times, we quit sitting in judgment upon the convictions of another. We know just how much we need Grace -- and so we give it. (With the measure you use, it shall be measured back to you!)

This understannding is KEY to true unity in the faith...for as long as we only look upon others as being "wrong" then we really aren't willing (as our brother Timothy said so well recently) to get the beam out of our own eyes.. before we worry about the sliver in our brother's!

'Seeing' our Divine Unity depends mostly upon our perspective. Is it an earthly perspective -- or is it a Heavenly perspective.

From the earthly perspective, we can never see that we are already unified in Christ Jesus.... He is the Vine, we are but the branches. If we are connected to Him, then we are connected to all who are connected to Him.. We need not try to create any false unity -- it is a natural byproduct of having been engrafted into the Vine. We just need to apprehend this unity by faith -- speaking it, declaring it -- trusting that it is more real than what our "lying eyes" (soulish perspective) tells us. We can't understand in our limited mortal understanding just HOW predestination and free will are both correct -- but we must humble ourselves and declare what God has declared is truth. There is no lie in Him -- and He has declared both are true. I must admit my own limited understanding -- and in that spirit of truth, allow my brothers to come to this same understanding, in due time -- according to the Will of the Father.

I believe we spend WAAAAAAaYYYYYYY toooooooooo much time being overly concerned about doctrines which are not the essentials of the faith -- thus focusing on our differences so much, we forget we are One in Christ.

Love, Linda

This is a statement from a book that I love. It is called "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church". It is one of my all time favorites the Lord has used to open my eyes to the reality of the Wonder of His Church - Universal! Catholic and Holy Apostolic -- in God's meaning of those terms and not mans. :)

".... theology will never be 'abstract' -- working through concepts -- but contemplative: raising the mind to those realities which pass all understanding. This is why the dogma of the Church often present themselves to the human reason as antimonies -- the more difficult to resolve, the more sublime the mystery they express. It is not a question of suppressing the antimony, by adopting dogma to our understanding -- but of a change of heart and mind, enabling us to attain to the contemplation of the reality which reveals itself to us as it raises us to God, and unites us, according to our several capacities, to Him."

This expresses what I mean by "perspective". We must rise up to the truth... seeing it as a whole, rather than trying to piece it together, piece by piece. If we are looking only from the earthly perspective, we are like one of those, in that old analogy of a different men touching different parts of an elephant, and then describing the "elephant-truth"... but if our perspective is from Above, we can see the variouis parts each man is touching, and can understand how they are ALL TRUE.

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