Maturation of the Prophetic

June 13, 2000

The great purpose of these discussions is to surround ourselves with the prophetic in order to bear witness with each other and come to one accord. As to authority, we have the authority of Jesus and the more we grow together in humility, the more authority God will be giving us. God is truth and we are seekers of the truth. We do not concern ourselves with the truth that the world gives us but as obedient servants we decrease and allow the Lord to increase in each one of us. Every one of us should desire to operate in the prophetic and bear witness to each other. This is the way it should be.

My last post will be the only one so far that will not be archived. I did not like it before I sent it and I did not like it after but the fact remains that I did pray on it and I did ask the Lord to speak through me. The responses, however, are of a different matter and show the maturity of this group. What is not needed in this forum is the opportunity for others to control the discussion and tempt me to act out of pride to defend my own positions. What we are doing has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong but rather to find the truth in dialectic to arrive at a spiritual consensus in unity. Brian B. asked us to respond to him and is being lifted up, not torn down. He has matured and asks for us to pray for him. We should do that, be thankful and remember us all in our prayers.

Now is the time for all of us to mature. We must embrace some of this prophetic power that has been given to us and identify exactly what happens in the process. The discussion here will be focused on prophecy and what we can do to stir up the gift in ourselves and in bringing others to come into line with the spirit of prophecy. More than any other gift, this is where we must submit to each other in the spirit. If God is truly speaking through us, then it will be according to what He is speaking through others and the most perfect mechanism in the body to come to unity. Those that have been given the gift of prophecy come in all levels of maturity. Those that exhibit the spirit of prophecy and then use it in a prideful manner are the first to come out with false prophecy by speaking in the flesh. We do not need to convince ourselves of the validity of the gift, we are already full-gospel people. What we need to do is stir up the gift and bring ourselves to the maturity that comes with total submission to the Lord and each other through the gift. I am asking for responses concerning the prophetic that will bring us to maturity.

To close the issue of leadership, of course there is leadership in the church, you have all convinced me of that. But it is only true leadership if it is Jesus living through us. More than causing division, I believe that the problem with the question of authority has caused mass confusion. The problem is in the fleshly leadership that has manipulated, controlled and dominated the church to bring it into the mess that it is in and saturated it with the traditions of men and the doctrines of demons. The watchword this edition is pride, the power of the flesh taking control instead of the power of the Holy Ghost. To have leadership in the church that does not take into account the service and ministration necessary to keep it pure is to allow pride to creep in, corrupt it and leave us in confusion. If Jesus is truly operating His will through us, then He is the leader and still the only leader, we are only operating according to His purpose and He is living His leadership through us through our submissive service and ministration to others. This is why we are to submit to each other, because He is living His shared leadership through us - but be careful, not all are following Him in the spirit. To even call yourSELF a leader is to act in the flesh. If Jesus has called you to a leadership position, keep it to yourself and trust Him enough to act through you and He will put you where He wants you to be. Do not seek to promote yourself or your ministry but rather act upon the spirit and allow others to do the same in order for that position to be manifested. If God is truly speaking and acting through you then His sheep will hear His voice and the words will speak for themselves.

Jesus is still the only leader. For Jesus to share that leadership with us is to give us the responsibility to continue in that spiritual service to the point that we do not seek titles, exalt ourselves, lord it over others, act in pride, operate in the flesh or any such thing. To be in a leadership position REQUIRES you to operate totally in the spirit. And it is shared leadership only among us that are living in the spirit, there are no chiefs here, no rulers outside of that spiritual authority, no pecking order, we are to submit to each other and not to seek others to submit to us. We must have the mind that Jesus had to be effective.

Fleshly leadership has taken over the church and wants us to submit to it. It shall not be so for us because the truth shall make us free to follow Jesus and only Jesus. I have been told that because I have a servant attitude that it qualifies me to be a leader. I maintain that I am nothing without Christ and I submit this group entirely upon the leadership of Jesus. If He gives me the grace to operate through me then I will still not take the position of leadership but still give the glory and honor completely over to Him. I trust Jesus much more than I trust myself and He is much more qualified to lead this group than I am. I will do the best that I can to submit myself to Him and I will also submit myself to those that are in that submissive role to Him in the spirit. I will not submit myself to the tyrants of the church. I will not submit to apostles who consider themselves in a rulership position or to those that will not submit to the prophets or want us to come into one accord with them. I will not submit to anyone that requires me to submit just because they think that they have scriptural authority. I will continue to pray for wisdom, discretion and discernment and ask that the Lord shows me the right way to go. And I will pray that He uses me for His glory. All the I's and me's that I have just shared with you could also be replaced with us and we.

The Nicolaitan system will try to convince you that grace comes from the church but you need to know brothers and sisters that it comes from God. They will also try to tell you that salvation comes through the church. Do not believe it, salvation comes from the Son of God who died for us on the cross to deliver us from the traditions of men. The rock that the church is built upon is the faith that we have in the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God that was promised to the world. We are justified by faith, not by the church. The church cannot save you, only Jesus can save you. The church is the witness to salvation, the fellowship of the household of faith, the sower of the seed, it is God that gives the increase and the One that chooses us for salvation. We must not submit to the fleshly leadership of the church, we are the church, subject to each other as in the Lord and it is only the godly remnant that Jesus will reveal Himself in these last days, those totally committed to Him, holy and filled with the spirit.


Personally, I believe you are on the right track in trying to be a peace-maker with Brian, but I would not frustrate yourself over it. Pride is sneaky in that we can take pride even in our own humility! Which it seems that Brian is doing. I have found the Lord to be such a gentleman that He does not force Himself on us, nor continue to press the point even when aren't receiving it. He just keeps loving us and leading in us in that love until we do see what He is saying. The need to always be right is difficult to overcome (and easily becomes contention, as you mentioned.)

Keep up the good work.


If we can get it into our minds and spirits that submission is HONORING and showing RESPECT for a God given position whether it be pastor or janitor, mayor of a city or store clerk, then the whole issue will be simplified. I teach school ..I have been given authority to teach children. My supervisor has been given authority to oversee my performance and the whole school. He respects my authority as teacher and does not purposely encroach himself upon my "domain" to teach "MY' students. I in turn honor his position as principal and respect his advice and even criticism. He welcomes my suggestions out of respect for my "jurisdiction" in the classroom. I respect the janitor..he has been given the authority to oversee the cleanliness of our building..I do not purposely dirty the room because he is only a janitor..I see that his job is made simpler by seeing that the excess trash is put in receptacles...This is submission to all in all who are operating IN THEIR CALLING OR JURISDICTION. As a BODY we are to do the same. I honor Jay's position as moderator of this discussion group. I also fully believe he respects my "authority" as encourager or exhorter in this group. That is submission. when ANY member of the body begins to "LORD OVER" another they are out of order, no matter what their "position " or "office" is.
That is PRIDE, and there is not room for it in the body of christ.

Ok enough said...Thanks. (smile)


Dear Jay (and Brian)!

sounds the same to me...! Only, Brian, you do seem more agitated than the situation would seem to warrant.....are you? Perhaps there is something else you are upset about that Jay got close enough to remind you of......just a thought!

I believe we are moving toward a time of servant leaders, those who are after God's heart, madly in love with Him and wanting to do their Father's business....loving, serving, lifting up, encouraging.........leaders from the heart, who do not title themselves, but reveal themselves by their love for one another...........God is doing that work in His servants and friends. (man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart)

just one more thought......"being about our Father's business" does not mean making the Church into a business...something I'm afraid we have done in this country. Jesus said "my house will be a house of prayer for all people" Even God does not force us to serve him...why should men?

"for now we see in a mirror darkly..." have grace!


Submitting to authority? From what I have seen of it, far as "human" authority, one must come to understand what leadership means. Leadership itself is to "serve". If one simply follows that logic, then submitting to authority with discretion is not a problem, for if a person in an authoritative position begins to command those things that exceed common sense, then we know well that it does not serve Him who has ultimate authority in Christ - whether minister, laity or Jesus himself by way of any proxy!

Seems simple to me:

Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name,
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy Will be done,
So on earth as it is in Heaven.

Giveth this day our daily bread,
Forgive us our debts as we forgive those who be our debtors,
Lead us not into temptation,
Deliver us from evil.

For thine is the Kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
Forever and ever,

Of course this could be made into an Algebra equation, and the results would be the same! Being what quantum is, the exponentials would be "phenomenal"!

Raymond D Howard

Hi Jay,

The one thing about Jesus,among many that i truly rejoice about,is that he knew distractions or detract- ors, would try to make themselves an everday part, of his ministry,for many of us,we have no choice but to follow the Divine leadership of our Lord and Saviour,Christ Jesus,our eyes are ever fixed,and remain upon him,with whom we have to do.There are people who i call the Jesus people,no i am not talking about Jesus only,but the Jesus people,love breathe,live,eat, drink,and so on, Jesus, in their everyday lives,as Paul said,for in him we live,and move,and have our being:as certain also of yor own poets have said,For we are also his offspring.Acts 17:28,when he was speaking to the Athenians.and strangers.Lately this has been,laying upon me,for some reason,Acts 5:29,Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said,We ought to obey God rather than men.A lot of things happened in chapter 5,of the book of Acts,notably from verse 12,on.Not trying to omit,anything that happened before that but the leaders,(religious ones)became upset when it was found out by them,of what had taken place. Verse 28,says that a command was given,but the hand of God Almighty was strong upon his people who were under the Divine,leadership,and authority of Jesus Christ,to do God's will.It is so sad that many only know our Lord,on sunday,only through what is taught in sunday school,and later on in the message,brought by the leaders.I am afraid that we have set up in our churches,(potentates)who now believe that they have a special calling above that which God,has called for,which is deceiving the hearts of many.True love among God's people, gets the heart to pumping with the excitement,of the mystery of what God is going to do next, because what ever that may be,you know that it is going to be great,edifying the body of Christ,and lift up,and bring glory,to the Wonderful name of Jesus.No it's far more than the lip service that we see,and hear today,but we know through this site even,that where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty,this has been,and continues to be manifested among us,let us continue to love,one another,pray for one another,submit to one another,under the Divine anointing,and leadership and authority of Jesus Christ.This site has become an important teaching tool,in which opposition,will not cease to have us to adhere,to the leadership of man, rather than Jesus Christ,keep yourselves,in the love of God,and may he continue to enrichly,bless us all as he sees fit,Your brother in Christ Jesus. Amen.


Jay, I am curious about what Robert Stone wrote. Are you communicating about that with him? Is he saying that the Catholic church is really the true church and that the "apostolic succession" is through the laying on of hands of the popes and cardinals in the Roman church, passed down through human hands that started with Peter and came to the present day "head" in the Pope and the other anointed leaders in that church alone? I am only wanting to understand this and wonder if that is what he means.

I come from a strong, Irish Catholic family. My grandfather's uncle was a priest, Father Harold Purcell, who started the City of Jude in Montgomery Alabama in the late 1940's, an act of courage and boldness on his part to stand up in the face of extreme prejudice and oppression from white government in our nation, especially in the South. He built the city, called a "city of refuge" and the "City of Justice" for people of color who were otherwise not allowed to be educated or treated medically by whites. It was obviously not for only the Catholics, as there were few Catholics in the south even among the whites let alone blacks) This is difficult for us to understand in our society, but it happened. My great uncle, his actual birth name was Thomas but I will call him Father Harold out of respect not "title", acted out of faith and his belief that the Lord loves us all, not based upon race or religion, and that he was called by God to take a stand. As the Ku klux Klan burned crosses on the lawn, he was threatened by earthly authority with punishment for breaking the laws of segragation, he labored on tirelessly and boldly, defying the "law" of unjust men that were "established" authority on earth, and humbling himself to obey a word and vision from the Lord Himself. I have read his writings, he was editor and founder of the largest Catholic magazine in the nation at the time, and he was not "Catholic" in the traditional sense of the word. He spoke out boldly against prejudice against anyone who named the Name of Jesus, including the prejudice of Catholics towards Protestants, and he boldly called the church everywhere to repentance and to unity in the Spirit of our Lord, which he said is true love and faith in Christ Himself, not a church. Of course he was a thorn in the flesh to many Catholic leaders at that time who were attempting to promote the doctrines of the church and convert everyone to their own religious beliefs, but my uncle seemed to be way ahead of his time so far as to lead many to re-examine the "doctrines" and realize we are called first and foremost to love. The REAL message of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As I read his works I am filled with joy and privileged to know I have come from such a heritage not only spiritually but that it has been passed down through my family, their prayers, love and committment to truth, justice and mostly the KINGSHIP of the Lord Himself and not to a religious belief system. I am not a member of the Catholic church per se, in that I don't attend mass, hold a membership or hold to the doctrines of the Roman catechism. In contrast, I attend a Presbyterian church that teaches the catechism of Calvinism, who I also think had some error in his extremes, who actually had killed people who disagreed with him from what I understand, so it goes on and on doesn't it? Why do we reject and hate those who disagree with us doctrianlly? Is this in any way the Lord's example to His church? Do we just keep dividing and dividing and making new doctrines and little isolated cells because of our inability to come to unity and love each other WHILE we yet disagree? I think that in the human body is called cancer! Or we can go to another extreme, AIDS, and not fight at all the lies that would invade and destroy us, let everything go, be overcome by every false thing or foreign substance that comes in to destroy us and rob us of TRUE faith and HEALING!

Jay, again I commend you for your stand, for what you are doing in this hour as a true, anointed leader among us. I don't know you but I love you as a brother and recognize God's Hand on you, the work you are doing is a good work which is the result of your faith in our Lord Jesus, and I encourage and support you to continue to make available your website to those who seek unity and understanding in doctrinal issues. We need to maintain real dialogue, and that can't happen if we don't discuss these issues. We are, each one of us, imperfect, all of us have some beliefs that are dogmatic or something we have learned and aren't clear on because we have believed it our whole lives and clung stubbornly to that "pacifier" when we were being called to put away the childish things and grow up! May God have mercy on us all. He is calling the church to come away and be HIS BRIDE and there are still those who would prefer to suck on a bottle or a pacifier and need others to coddle and pamper them in the process. Come on guys, give it up! The church needs strong leadership in this hour if we ever hope to walk through the fire and storm the gates of hell. This is not a job for babies or even adolescents who are standing around with their thumbs in their mouths waiting for the call to war, then running the other way cause they need somebody to protect them or pacify them in their baby behaviors. It is one thing to carry our wounded, it's quite another to have to carry somebody who refuses to get up and walk because he's scared for his own life. Maybe we all need to pay more attention to the lessons in the movie "Saving Private Ryan" we see ourselves there? We need to be merciless to the enemy, because if we don't kill him we can be sure he'll get us in the end. HE IS A LIAR, and so is the harlot that sits on the throne with him and drinks the blood of the saints and martyrs who have been killed in the Name of JESUS for so long? Guess who killed them? Look at history! Could it have been the "established authorities?" Both "religious" and "political"? Why is that? Where do men strive to when they want to "rule"? To the very opposite place that Jesus came to. Position, power, the "top" rung? Well, I am going to do what He calls me to do. Stay low, humble myself under HIS mighty hand and let them kill me if they must, but I refuse to follow their lead. Goats will get you into trouble every time. It's not worth the wasted effort or the detour. Stay close to Jesus, brethren (and 'sistren"), He will never steer us wrong. HE ALONE KNOWS THE WAY HOME, rough and steep as it is, we will get there in due time if we stay close to the MASTER. He said we are all brothers and sisters and have ONE FATHER. Could this be just a typical case of sibling "rivalry"? Could this be why all through the scriptures the blessing goes to the YOUNGEST rather than the ELDER. Look again, at Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, Joseph, the prodigal son? How about Jesus, the second Adam? King David to back up a bit? Solomon may not have been the youngest but was the son of a wife that was "illegitimate"....oh wow! Does God ever do things as we would? I don't think so. HIS WAYS ARE SO MUCH HIGHER! In HIS love, Karen

The Holy Word states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of our faith. God has set up His leadership, as Holy Scripture certainly states. He who does not submit to the God-Given leadership and Holy Magisterium of the Church is disobedient to God Himself. For it is God alone who appoints all leadership and apostolic leadership is found in only one place. To love the Bride of Christ is to Love Christ. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. There is only one holy apostolic universal church. Private interpretation is unheard of in scripture. No doctrine is of private interpretation. Christ's body is ONE and Christ's teaching is ONE. One faith, one lord and one baptism. Praise the Lord. His mercy endures forever. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. If you think you found a new order, then you must be mistaken. Upon this ROCk I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Robert Stone

This hymn, written in 1894, is calling us still to war, to do battle in the heavenlies against the darkness and the rulers of this world system that the Lord came to cast out. Do you remember that He told the pharisees and the rulers of earth that they were under the dominion of the devil who had been cast down here from Heaven by the angels who refused to rebel? In essence, was that not the very nature of the devil, to want to be exalted even over God, unwilling to be one of many angels who were worshipping the Creator and wanting to be instead worshipped and on his throne as "ruler"? How this world is "lying in the lap of wickedness" and remains bound by the lies that he laid on the human race starting with Adam and Eve? We are all laboring, groaning together, anxiously waiting for the manisfestation of the sons of God, those who are brought forth as the children of God through the union of Christ with HIS CHURCH (in the most pure and HEAVENLY SENSE OF THIS WORD) as Jesus Himself was conceived not as the seed of man but the SEED of GOD, and as we are filled with the SAME SPIRIT that raised JESUS from the dead, so we are to be now as the children of LIGHT and not children of darkness. How are we ever going to cast out the enemy from this earth and take our rightful place as "rulers", not as the devil who sought to usurp the authority of God and become equal to God, but as those the Lord "gives the keys to the KINGDOM to because we are HIS children and are created in HIS LIKENESS to rule and reign WITH HIM, TOGETHER HIS HEIRS AND CHILDREN AFTER THE PROMISE here and seated BESIDE our KING, the LORD JESUS who humbled HIMSELF to the WILL of HIS FATHER and learned to obey through suffering in this world. If we don't believe who we are and who HE says WE HAVE BECOME through the cleansing of HIS blood, the blood that now flows freely through us as HIS heirs of salvation, what do we believe? Do we believe this or not? Are we the chosen people, a royal priesthood, kings and priests (all of us) because HE has finished the work IN us and is finishing it THROUGH us all? Are we members one of another? ONE HEAD, ONE BODY? Do we believe or are we trying to establish our own kingdoms and our own righteousness through the power of the flesh and after the worldly kingdoms? I am convinced we are to be different, to actually be diametrically opposed to the current world systems of religion and government, while submitting ourselves even to death because it is the WAY we will overcome. Submission is an attitude of heart, not "giving into or bowing down to, simply gently and humbly and meekly yielded to even while we are standing up in oppostion to outwardly by NOT GOING ALONG WITH)....this is happening all over the world even as I write. It is not hostile takeover, it is a PROCLAMATION OF FREEDOM! Persecution and suffering for those who refuse to bow down to any other god or man, whatever the cost. It is up to us to pull down the strong holds, the pen is mightier than the sword, and so is our computer. We can do this. We will fight together side by side. So, here is the hymn that I believe is for this hour in the church!


This is my earnest prayer for us all. Please, let's lay aside the weights that so easily trip us up, let's run with confidence and keep our eyes fixed on the author and finisher of our faith, let's remember we are a team and if we see a brother who has fallen, stop to pick him up and help him along the way, because in this race, the first will be as the last, and the last will be as the first. It only matters that we FINISH the race, that we all come in and we all share the glory together in the end, a TEAM with our CAPTAIN having finished ahead of us to lead the way and wait for us to come in on the other side of the line. Those who are already there are waiting WITH HIM cheering us on and encouraging us to finish, which should be what we who are still running are doing, too. Then, one day, we will all be there in the VICTORY celebration when the enemies are all defeated and no longer here to trip us up. Press on to the HIGH CALLING, the finish line, the place we call, Karen

Jay,a short period back,you posted, Ecumenical Thinkng as Love,i believe that was the way it was posted,correct me if i'm wrong,to me everything that was said,seemed to make me want to look into the mirror that James,talked about,i was taken aback by it,but at the same time,it was much needed,because no matter where one thinks he may be in the Lord,you can rest assured,there's always room for improvement,in all areas.

I wonder if Brian,saw this post,because it really could not be any clearer,than what was said in it.Is there any way possible that you could send it to me,personally? If it is too much trouble,finding or locating it,never mind,but i felt that it touched on every area,that could be touched.



I thought of responding to this, but the Lord showed me that I would have done it out of my feelings instead of my heart. I do have but one thing to say. If this is a matter of who's point of veiw is right or wrong, noone will win. But, that's ok. I forgive you. I love you my brother in the faith. I think we both agreed that we agree on things in our last private e-mail, and if I am not mistaken some apologies were made. Let me be so humble and tell you that I am sorry for the way I came across, and ask for your forgiveness. You may have overlooked that part, but that's ok. We are human and we make mistakes.

I took that you wouldn't submit to athority because you said that you were talking to your pastor, and he asked you to submit under him. I may have misunderstood what you meant. Something I have been taoght by the Spirit is I don't have to explain anything when it is comming from the Spirit. I have examined what I have said, and some of it was from the Spirit and some of it was from my feelings. I do apologize for the part that was from feelings. But I don't for the part from the Spirit. Post this if you may. I pray you do. I wnat the world to see that I am humble enough to admit my faults. I do jump too quick as to answer with my feelings. I am learning to control this as the Lord has opened my eyes to it. What about you? This may be off the subject, but what are some of your faults? The Bible says to confess our faults one to another. Let me share some more with you. I am too critical with things. Why? I pray God reveals the root of things so that I can seek deliverance from it. It may be because of the way my father tried to bring me up as if I was in the military. That is another fault. I really don' want to discuss my father. At that fact, I would rather forget him.

I don't ask for pity. I am far from that. Elijah threw his little pity-party with God, and it got him nowhere. I do ask for your prayers in the matter. I must go.
In Christ's faithful service,

I believe that you have to share leadership in the church. If one person is doing everything in the church that person tends to become more prideful and feel like God works through him more. I am only eighteen and have been a Christian a little over a year, but I know that even I have a certain leadership role in the church.

If God calls you to a leadership role he is also calling you to the ultimate servant role. Jesus was the ultimate servant even though he was the ultimate leader. The truth is if God called you to be a leader in the church he called you to the biggest servant-ship you can have. So don't give up your leadership role, unless God has called you to do that.

Judgement is definitely coming to the church and if you are not a servant than you better become one. The truth is that everybody has a certain leadership role if they are in Christ, and everybody has been called to serve, not only Jesus but also the people.

Jesus did say that the first is the last in the Kingdom of heaven and the last the first.

Rebel For God

Hey Jay,
This argument sounds like you guys are saying the same thing. Only it sounds like Brian is confused. He is stating what your stating only in a different way. Basically, Your stating the same thing but its different. I don't know how to explain it. Keep me updated. All I know is that you guys should agree. If your not agreeing then something is wrong.

Sort of like some of this stuff that has happened to my friends. These guys are in a Christian Band. They have tattoos, and etc. They play hard music. They were kicked out of their church because the pastor or preacher or whomever called them devil worshipers. They are not devil worshipers in any way. One of my friends got kicked out of his church in Philly cause of the way they heard he dressed outside of church.

These churches were legalistic. Being legalistic is Religion. Jesus is not legalistic. He is real. God doesn't do something you think belongs in a church. He is God. He can do anything he wants. He is so awesome. He does things you wouldn't think a God would do. You think he would be adorned with Gold, and order everyone around. We have our choice to follow him. Its up to us. As for as Authority goes, Jesus is our leader. He is our authority. Their is no doubt in my mind that your following him. I agree that we should submit to Christ first before submitting to others in the Lord.

your bro in Christ,

Good Evening Jay,
i guess it has been two days now since i read this last post/discussion. i keep looking at this and my last two posts and just shake my head in wonder. you see i believe in "faith"....that GOD has a purpose for all things and that HE has invested in HIS SERVANTS far longer and in ways we never see. the last time i wrote to you i disussed the paradox of "DEAD MEN"....we who are alive in CHRIST can only be so when we are everything that "ain't GOD". maybe i have over simplified it, but it should be simple. THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM was given to lambs and babes.

likewise in the past i have disussed the issue of "authority"...and brought up the "servant" issue when APOSTOLIC RULE was being disussed. now we have someone "enoch777"...that don't bother me...i have been signing off as "old dog" for several years. many still write me asking why i would call myself "old dog" instead of something more "spiritually uplifting". of course i have to send them back several years to where the monicur got laid on me. as long as my MASTER, THE GOOD SHEPHERD uses it, i will acknowledge it freely.

as to "Brian B./enoch777" 's challenge about the people who receive these disussions to give up their "positions of leadership" is interesting. Enoch777, why do you assume any of us are leaders of anything? Hold any position of authority from GOD or man? Jay, like you i have to believe that the comment is rhetorical in nature. otherwise it is bordering on presumption.

if the "real" issue was authority, leadership, and submission i think we could talk in circles for a long, long time. but if we try to see it as an issue of "service unto GOD" it all boils down to two points...what is a servant and what is a steward. now i hear and see noting anywhere out there on the internet or in "the body'' where the "issues" of "obedience", "responsibility", and "accountability" unto a HOLY GOD dominates the discussion.

like i wrote to you before Jay, it is still John and James using their aunt to get JESUS to pull strings and set them up with top positions in THE KINGDOM TO COME....... and the other ten mad because they didn't do it first. what it all boils down to the reality that even walking with HIM does not help until we pick up our crosses and follow him up the hill of the die. if we don't want to die we want "our place"....and we are back to the issue of selling GOD out for position and income. go back to Judges and check it out. i wrote about it last post.

to me i have one question....who decides what is legitimate leadership? how can you tell servants from hirelings? how an you tell the "brother" JESUS acknowledges? the ones who do the will of MY FATHER in HEAVEN....think about it....does the guys with titles, degrees, papers serve GOD? or did they find a "place" serving other people's idols?

if you think i am crude...or rude...please consider.....what would be worse than "DEPART FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF INIQUITY, I NEVER KNEW YOU!"....but that will happen....but only to a group of people who say "LORD, LORD".... you see it will really happen one day....and i have no intention of being with da' goats. likewise i take it seriously not being "unequally yoked"...."can two walk together...." does not mean what we think as submission to leadership today. or should it? the warning Paul gives about "unfruitful works of darkness" is valid today. likewise the warning about "dead works". both prove the importance of James call to GOOD/LIVING WORKS as a sign of LIVING FAITH. there is no paradox between James and Paul....unless we want an issue to divide and diminish the saints.

the issue is still submission unto THE KING...THE LORD JESUS CHRIST....and the RIGHTIOUS STEWARDS HE "PLACES'' in the 'church'. tose autely aware of HIS WILL and HIS DEMANDS of ACOUNTABILITY.

so please forget about titles and positions, rule and authority.....till you show me the fruit of a solid servant that PROFITS AND PLEASES THE MASTER...that is the whole "ISSUE"...

old dog

Hi Jay: I have read some of the replies so I will give mine. There were always leaders of any assembly, never just a leader. No certain one was in authority over any congregation but all were. As long as that one that was speaking (preaching, teaching) the truth of GOD's word. That is what makes one to be in authority. We are all brethren as the word of GOD states. there isn't any big I's and little U's in the body of CHRIST. It is up to each one to help the other as is stated in James if one err from truth let one (note ONE any one that knows the truth) seeing that the person had to know truth or else that person could not have strayed from it. So the person that showed him his error and that person is converted from his error the person that converted him was in authority for he had the truth that set the man free from the error of his way. Whether that person is an elder, teacher, evangelist (apostle), prophet,or musician. For there was always more than one in leadership over each assembly, Until about 150 AD. when the teaching of one man rule (popalism) was adopted following in the steps of the Catholic doctrine (Roman Catholic Church). As far as coming into unity there can only be unity if we all teach the same as Paul, Peter, James, and Jude and etc. for thay all taught the same in every assembly (church). For all of them taught to be baptized in the NAME OF JESUS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS AND TO BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AS GOD SPEAKS THRU THAT PERSON. If we do not teach this and all the commandments that they taught we will never be in unity with GOD let alone each other. The people that have been baptized in the NAME of JESUS and have received the HOLY GHOST is the only body CHRIST has on this earth that HE WILL CLAIM as BEING HIS BODY As stated in GOD's word that the name JESUS is above all names and that the WHOLE FAMILY IS NAMED WHETHER THAY BE IN HEAVEN OR EARTH. I must state that TRUTH in UNION with the SPIRIT(GOD, JESUS) is the only AUTHORITY no matter who is the one speaking it. And truth is only GOD's word. I might add this GOD's word states to rightly devide it so there must be away to wrongly devide it so we must be sure that we are right with the word or else we are out of GOD's will.

I go by Didache

Daniel Tipton

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