Sharing Leadership and Authority
Wow, to be truly in harmony in what we believe is really a great
feeling. We do have the authority of Jesus but the problem of authority
in the church can lead people down the wrong path if it used in the
wrong way or used with pride and out of step with the Lord. Knowing the
pitfalls of false authority can help us to recognize how the leadership
of Jesus should be in all that we do.
We all know of apostles and prophets and pastors that take authority and
use it from pride and control. I get e-mail all too frequently of those
that believe that they are one of the two witnesses and want me to cave
in under their authority. The restoration of the temple includes the
rebuilding of the walls of the New Jerusalem and I have seen pretended
watchmen of the walls that think they have a ministry of tearing us down
instead of building up. We have even seen in this group where prophets
have had that prideful attitude of since the Lord speaks to them,
whatever they say is of the Lord and we must heed what they say. It
cannot be stressed enough that we are to submit to the authority of each
other as long as we are truly of the Lord and others are doing the same
but it has to be done in all humility. It is the weak that will be led
away captive and submit to the authority of fleshly leadership just
because they think that others are in a position of authority over them
and they are in the position of submission. For those that would have us
agree when they cannot agree with others in the Lord around them are
just exposing themselves to be of pride and of an unsubmissive spirit
themselves to the Lord and to the rest of His body. Be strong in the
spirit, accept the authority yourselves and submit one to another. We
are not to follow the goats but be among the sheep yet constantly aware
of the wolves among us in sheep's clothing that would seek to devour us.
This present discussion started with the role of apostles and in
response to the idea that the apostles in the church are in a governing
situation or as chiefs in the five-fold. This is a point that I rejected
and even though the apostles are considered first in the list of
spiritual gifts, this does not make them any more than any other gifted
persons in the body or others to be of any less importance or have less
authority. Jesus' words have not changed, it is still He that does His
work through us, we are still to deny ourselves and allow Jesus to live
through us and it is still the least among us that will be the greatest.
This time, I would like to repeat the outstanding points that you have
contributed in this discussion of authority. Leadership in the church
other than Jesus seems to be a separate issue and one that we may have
to deal with a little more. I like the idea that seems to be coming
through with the shared leadership, leading each other into the deeper
things of God as we continue to follow Jesus. Or, we can leave that as
it is and get into the role of a prophet today. Whatever the Lord puts
on your heart, we will pursue.
The following are of the most recent submissions and I have even gone
back some to the pecking order and fleshly leadership issue that we
discussed earlier. Give Jesus a hand clap - and as His body, give
yourselves one as well, this next part is all yours.
Jay
How many people with a servant's heart have been trampled upon because
someone in supposed authority who had never performed the particular
task thought it ought to be done their way?... Does this make the
apostle superior to the pastor?... no, just a different gifting and
function. Does this give the apostle greater authority with the people
than the pastor has?..no. ... Yes, we all need accountability
relationships.. yes, we must submit ourselves one to another; however,
if someone insists that you submit to them outside the areas of their
FUNCTIONAL responsibility, then I say beware... So, who's the boss?...
Jesus Christ; He must receive the pre-eminence in ALL things. From
there, we submit to each other recognizing the gifting and ministry of
Christ through each other.
He made no distinction between which was greater or which has more
authority. Still, they ALL play a role
in the edifying of the church. Each one has its own distinctive
responsibilities, but neither is greater than the other. We are to
submit to them in God's love and vice versa. Otherwise, there would be
(as there is now) massive confusion in the church... That is why we must
continually lift us prayers for the leadership. Because if the head is
sick, the whole body will be. And if we pray for a mass of already
wounded people to rush into the church without sincere and Godly
leadership, then they will be even more wounded and oppressed.
Questioning authority, and leadership is a subject that needs to be
addressed, if one does not have a problem with it then one could
possibly be led by anyone or anything. Pray for one another brothers and
sisters, unity scares the enemy.
As we strive for Unity In Christ, with His Leadership, we will arrive at
the point where He desires to bring us. Continue to promote the Unity of
the Body of Christ and He will continue to bless.
We must understand that authority is not lordship over the flock, but
influence in that righteous walk with Christ...The Apostle Paul, for
example, had a certain authority over the Churches he helped start. He
was their overseer, yet he never "bossed" them around, being always
mindful of their Bishops and Pastors (Elders). There was a certain
amount of reverent respect for the men of God appointed to leadership.
We need that in
the Church today.
Thus, the church's destiny is clearly seen from the church's
purpose...Dominion... At His command, He is the one whom brings to pass
his ultimate and sovereign will in the earth, and He is the one whom
will bring to an end the injustices of our society through a people
prepared for Him. For in this very hour, the clock is ticking "Kingdom,
Dominion, Rule, Reign, and Lordship!" ... But the people that know their
God shall be strong, and do exploits... The rule and reign of the Lord
among the earth, is God's governmental order. It is His government
versus that of this world. It is His good pleasure, His way of doing
things. So, let us rejoice in the truth that the increase of his
government reshapes the world we live in, and subdues it with ultimate
kingdom, and ultimate purpose.
Another example of roots and fruits has to do with the Headship and
Preeminence of Christ. For we are not only the body of Christ, but
Christ the body. Everything in the Christ is to be found in his body.
Unfortunately, we have substituted our Lord's headship for denominations
which are birthed out of carnality...
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be the servant of all.
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister,
and give his life a ransom for many.
Those who have the greatest authority in the kingdom will be the ones
serving the most people. We do not see this today. We see people
attempting to gain a false authority that really puts them in a position
to be served by the most and be recognized by the most. When the true
apostles are raised up, you will see men who are absolutely sold out to
the concept of servanthood and being poured out upon their brothers and
sisters.
Leader, it is not enough to know the "how-to's" of ministry. We must be
be passionate for His Presence. We must make room for Him; in fact, so
much room that there is no longer any room for us... We have created
atmospheres for man, but where is the one that will create the
atmosphere for HIM? What IF leaders got hungry... Leadership is action,
not position... It is time to move into My vision for the House. No
longer will you be bound by other's expectations, but you will move to
meet Me, says the Lord. Deal with this in a different way for
relationships change, says the Lord... So now, follow, says the Lord and
I will be with you!
In the first century, no Christian would dare take the position or title
of sole ruler, overseer, or pastor of the church... The New Testament
provides a consistent example of shared leadership as the ideal
structure of leadership in a congregation where love, humility, and
servanthood are paramount... There is only one flock and one Pastor
(John 10: 16) one body and one Head (Col. 1: 18) one holy priesthood and
one great High Priest (Heb. 4:14ff.) one brotherhood and one Elder
Brother (Rom. 8:29) one building and one Cornerstone (I Peter 2:5ff.)...
If we have the worldıs mentality of wanting the foremost place, we are
not qualified for Christian leadership. This mentality can lift us into
ecclesiastical leadership or fit us for being a big name among men, but
it unfits us for real spiritual leadership... But do not be called Rabbi
for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers... I believe that
churches today desperately need a revival of love, humility, and the
servant spirit. Such a revival must begin with our leaders, and biblical
eldership provides the structure through which leaders learn to work
together in mutual love and humility.
Why do so many want there own piece of turf... their own bunch of sheep
to "rule righteously" over? maybe they want a "place"...a
"position"....throw in ten sheckels and a shirt and many will sell GOD
out in a minute.
Too long the "ministers" have demanded to have praises sung to them as
if they were to be anything but a servant to the people. This is an
abomination what these false apostles and prophets have done to the body
of Christ.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to
establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto
the righteousness of God.
On the question of leadership you are absolutely right, in my opinion,
to be entirely focussed on Jesus... There is however a danger that those
given powerful ministries may consider the ministry itself as more
important than the Lord and this is where discernment and humility is
called for.
The Lord has plainly told me the following, among many other things: "I
have called you to be a leader...
Just because someone is called a leader in the Church does not take
anything away from Christ being the Head
or Leader in the Church. A worship leader is called that because his/her
responsibility is to lead people into the true worship of God. That is
not taking away anything from Christ as being the Leader of the
Church... I
will have a submissive attitude to all, but I will not subject myself to
all. There are those who have a counterfeit spiritual authority and I
will not submit to them for even one hour! Just because someone does
not state something in the same manner in which we do does not mean they
are in error... The term "leader" simply defines a God-given
responsibility. That responsibility is to lead all to a total dependence
upon Christ as the Vine...
I would encourage you to be careful not to be distracted by a person's
title, but to discern what spirit they are of.
The true disciple does not revel in his position, neither does he find
pleasure at the precipice of failure. But His passion to be obedient to
Him who has washed him, moves him beyond the human safety zone and into
the realm of all-God where He moves freely through the lives of those
yielded to Him at any cost. Here Lordship takes on new meaning. For
here, your Lord does His work within you, in spite of your doctrine, in
spite of
your traditions, in spite of your past, in spite of your fears.
I have really prayed about this and felt the Lord showed me that HIS
authority is not at all like the
world's. It is love, and truth, and "servanthood"....that HE never
sought to "rule over" any person and came to free us from such a
terrible lie that has been foisted upon us by the enemy.
Jesus must at all times be our leader, for he has told us that without
me, ye can do nothing.
I have been put out of 2 churches, because I stood on the truth that
Jesus was the only leader.
And when we put our trust in them instead of in GOD to work THROUGH
them, we have missed the mark and given glory to the creation rather
than the Creator. We have reversed the order that God has set. I
personally have
been asked to leave a church that I belonged to for over 3 years because
I believed this simple truth. My pastor wanted myself and others to
follow him, in spite of what the Word said and what God had revealed to
many of us.
Jesus Is our Authority.!!!!!!! We are to follow HIM and not a
"leader." We are to "lead each other" into a fuller relationship with
Christ!!!
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
True power comes from God. No one can have any power unless God gives it
to them... True leadership comes from following... I feel sorry that for
people who want to rule. They are the ones who have set themselves to
fall.
Those who are truly great among us will take the "place" of "least" and
will not exalt themselves. It is the Lord's job to exalt us. If we do
HIS of exalting ourselves, then HE will do OURS and humble us. So, if
you are wise, humble yourself, take the lowest seat, the lowest place
and make yourself least.
We are all in agreement that ONLY Jesus is the leader in every
Christian's life. Jesus is the leader anywhere and anytime we meet for
collective worship.
Jesus, our leader, and why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things
I say.
There is no place to compete when we truly love one another, no rivalry,
no positioning or grasping, no "power" to have over another, no desire
to possess, control or exploit those we love. We only want what is best
for them, what is their highest good, and we want to bless and protect
and enable them to be their best, that is the heart of a true Father
towards ALL his children, not only the older ones. We are to assume the
position of the younger brother, who recognizes his true condition and
runs to his father in humility, brokenness, real repentance, and asks to
be "allowed" to serve in his father's house. If your pastor, prophet or
apostle is in any way demanding your submission, allegiance or support,
requiring or reminding you of YOUR
need to SUBMIT TO HIM, chances are he is not following the same VOICE
that you are, the voice of JESUS.
If we follow Him, we too must go the way of self-sacrifice... We as
Christ's disciples are willing to sacrifice anything but ourselves; and
for this reason the world has not yet felt the full impact of the
gospel... The call to follow Jesus needs to be spread abroad. Through
our sacrifice, others can live. It is not the strong and powerful whom
God will use to change society; it is the lowly and meek.
"Once a day I look up and scream. "I AM NOTHING!" It will always be this
way until He comes to set up His government.
Jay, the Lord led me on a study of the issue of "submission to
authority"
also. I think it also ties into esteeming the other as "better or
higher"
than yourself. Mutual respect. Each of us has been given a particular
function in the body of Christ. If I am "called " to be the teacher or
whatever of a given meeting then those at the meeting "respect" that
"authority."..However I am to respect that which God has called all
others
in that room to do. This is where the "church" (organization) has it
out of
line. The "pastor" is put on a pedestal and given "all authority" over
his
"flock"..for this reason all in the flock do not come to the fullness of
the
call put into their lives by the Lord., because they are so busy
'submitting" to that shepherd.
I agree..Jesus Is our Authority.!!!!!!! We are to follow HIM and not a
"leader." We are to "lead each other" into a fuller relationship with
Christ!!!
Hope I made sense...:) Becky
Brother Jay,
Jay, what you are doing is what I believe qualifies you to lead, in the
sense that you are working behind the scenes to orchestrate and
facilitate
people who have the heart to serve, who desire the Will of God and to
usher
in the coming Kingdom. Once the Lord spoke to my heart as I was
cleaning
up my room and meditating on a sermon I'd heard in church from our
pastor
(a very humble man who is a true example of a servant-leader) Alan
Poole.
He was talking about the striving that went on between Jesus' apostles
as
to "who would be greatest among them" in HIS KINGDOM. We all know what
Jesus said, how he admonished them to "make themselves least if they
want
to be greatest" in HIS kingdom.
Anyway, as I was praying about that, the Lord asked me clearly (in that
still small voice within that we can easily recognize if we are
listening
to it enough) "Why do you think I want those who are greatest to make
themselves least?" and I said, "I don't know, Lord. Why?" He answered
me
very simply, as we would a child, "Because nobody strives for the
'lowest'
position or place" and it became very clear to me. There is no place to
compete when we truly love one another, no rivalry, no positioning or
grasping, no "power" to have over another, no desire to possess, control
or
exploit those we love. We only want what is best for them, what is
their
highest good, and we want to bless and protect and enable them to be
their
best, that is the heart of a true Father towards ALL his children, not
only
the older ones. We are to assume the position of the younger brother,
who
recognizes his true condition and runs to his father in humility,
brokenness, real repentance, and asks to be "allowed" to serve in his
father's house. If your pastor, prophet or apostle is in any way
demanding
your submission, allegiance or support, requiring or reminding you of
YOUR
need to SUBMIT TO HIM, chances are he is not following the same VOICE
that
you are, the voice of JESUS. As soon as somebody demands that I submit
to
him I start to run the other way, because that is not the Voice of the
Loving Shepherd who laid down HIS life for me and came to wash my feet,
not
demand that I wash HIS. I do wash his feet, with my tears, with a
poured
out offering of my whole life. Not because HE ever demanded or even
asked
me to. Because of HIS great love for me, the sacrifice HE made so I
could
be the least in HIS KINGDOM, and that I could have a chance not only to
be
HIS servant but to be HIS BRIDE. With you, I acknowledge WHO I AM in
HIM,
who HE IS IN ME, and that is the annointing of His spirit, manifest in
love
and through the constant union of our minds and hearts, we will bring
forth
the fruit of the Kingdom, the children of God, the sons of God, others
who
will continue to bear the fruit of the same union. That is the ONLY
desire
of a true leader in the Body of Christ, to serve HIM as HE served us, in
humility, in meekness and in love. Anything else is somebody's own power
trip and attempt to exploit the little ones among us for their own
means.
Whether it be selfish gain or fame, or just a desire to control others,
we
can be sure those operating in such a spirit are not ordained by God or
annointed to do so, and it's up to us not to allow them to continue
their
exploitation by our own refusal to either bow our necks, knee or hearts
to
ANY other God (or man) Submission to leaders is truly what you have
said
that we are to do, recognize each member of the Body of Christ as a part
of
the HEAD we are all connected to. Pray for one another, love one
another,
forbear and teach one another in the spirit of humility and meekness
that
was shown us by our Lord Jesus, God incarnate, while He was in this
world.
Certainly the servant is not greater than the master. We are all one
Body
and we have ONE LORD and MASTER, we are all brothers and sisters, we
have
ONE FATHER which is in heaven. I believe that's the message we've had
from
the beginning. Little ones, do not be deceived. If anyone is telling
us
he is following Jesus and we should follow him, make sure you realize
where
he is going and what way he is leading you, as surely there are some who
are ahead of us in this army we are all called to be part of. We are
marching on, soldiers of the cross, onward, upward and forward, ever
storming the gates of hell. Be sure your backs are covered, those on
the
front lines are those who are taking the blows and are protecting you,
so
you who are behind will once be in front, as new soldiers are falling in
behind you. Our swords aren't given us to fight each other or to stab
into
the backs of the faithful in front of us, but to fight the real enemies
of
our souls (those things that would destroy us like pride and wrath and
jealousy, strife, etc) to tear down the strongholds of the invisible
forces
that use us to sow discord if we allow them to. We aren't to be striving
and pushing our way to the front, because we are in formation and we
can't
effectively fight this battle if we break ranks. Try to realize that we
are all where we are placed by God, each of us will be most effective by
listening closely to the marching orders we have been given by the
commander and chief. Those ahead of us are the ones who are shielding
us
from the darts and the heat of the battle. If we can see this truth, we
will not be so anxious to have to take their places as they "pass over"
and
we are the next to be in the same places of leadership. The front
lines,
especially as we are waging this war against such a foe that we have, is
the most dangerous place to be in. Let's not fight each other. We are
being
called to fight against the forces that have so long invaded our camps.
We
are being called to take a sword in one hand and a trow in the other and
to
re-build the walls, not BETWEEN US but around us, and to learn to live
in
peace with each other, to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond
of
love. That can't be done when there are those who strive for power and
who
as "elders" oppress or attempt to "force" what God HIMSELF does not
attemt
to do. Love and obedience are feigned if forced, but are freely given
when
freely received by those who are "ahead" or "above" us in the Body.
Those
who are truly great among us will take the "place" of "least" and will
not
exalt themselves. It is the Lord's job to exalt us. If we do HIS of
exalting ourselves, then HE will do OURS and humble us. So, if you are
wise, humble yourself, take the lowest seat, the lowest place and make
yourself least. Then, you are truly great in the Kingdom of our Lord
and
Christ and you will rule and reign forever with HIM. Karen
Jay..
just wanted to take a moment to interject a thought...
Jay and all,
Scripture tells us point blank that if we submit to the athority that
God has placed under us,
then we are submitting to Him. This is a no-brainer! If you cannot
percieve this, then you
really need to take a look at your hearts to see what GOd needs to work
on. God will only take
us as far as we will let Him. If you have a problem with athority, you
will NEVER SEE
REVIVAL!!! I pray God opens EVERYONE'S spiritual eyes on this.
In Christ's faithful service,
......................
Jay,
Below is some scripture and the greek behind the word "submit". If you
have any more
questions, feel free to ask. I will say that I responded the way I did
because I see some
unwillingness to submission in your response. But, here is what you
asked for. Enjoy!
enoch777
HEBREWS 13:17
SUBMIT gr. 5226 hupeiko {hoop-i'-ko}
God places people over us for one reason or another. This reason may be
to teach us what
we will never learn on our own. Another reason may be to shepheard us.
Whatever the
reason may be, God is God. He has reasons for this. We may never
understand why God
puts certain people over us, but I have learned that sometimes we should
quit trying to figure
this out and SUBMIT!!! The above scripture and definition should help
clarify the biblical
point of submitting.
James 4:7
SUBMIT gr. 5293 hupotasso {hoop-ot-as'-so}
from 5259 and 5021; TDNT - 8:39,1156; v
AV - put under 6, be subject unto 6, be subject to 5, submit (one's)
self unto 5,
submit (one's) self to 3, be in subjection unto 2, put in subjection
under 1, misc
12; 40
This is one of the bible's simple commands concerning submitting. This
is the FIRST athority
we are to submit to.
I PETER 2:13
We are to submit to our wordly rulers, ie. bosses, government officials,
and other forms of
athority the Lord sees fit to place over us. They are there for a
reason. But, only submit to
them in a Godly manner. The Greek word for submit came from the above
definition.
I PETER 5:5
>From the same definition as the last two. But don't let the wording fool
you. I feel that it refers
to the spiritualy younger submitting to the older. We should respect our
physically old, but
how are we to learn from an 80 year old hwo has only been in the faith
for one year?
Sometimes we overlook the spiritual significance of the scriptures. But
as the last portion of
the verse tells us, God resists the proud. We are to submit in
humility.
ROMANS 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to
establish their own
righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of
God.
>From the same form as the last. This verse makes a good point towards
those that haven't
submitted to the righteousness of God. I am reminded of those that have
fallen away from the
faith (apostates). They are too proud to submit. So, they go out and
make up their own right
way of thinking.
EPHESIANS 5:21
>From the same definition. Get this into your spirits. God wants us to be
humble to one
another. Let us submit ourselves to the body in order to keep ALL of us
in subjection.
There are other forms of The Hebrew and Greek for submit, but I feel
that these will suffice
to get my point across as to what we as Christians are supposed to do. I
will elaborate on
this as God leads me. If anyone has anything to add, please feel free to
sent your comments.
Learning to be broken in the eyes of Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Hi Jay,
I have been quite busy lately, so have had no time to respond to the
discussion. I believe we need to differentiate here the difference
between
the Biblical definition of terms and our own experiential definitions.
What
I mean by experiential definitions is the way we would define something
based on our experience with it. This could cause us to react to (for
example) the use of terms like "authority", "leader or leadership",
"rule or
rulership", etc in a manner that is contrary to Christ Jesus. In other
words, one could filter things through hurt they received through those
in
authority and completely miss the truth!
I once read a book that was used by the "accuser of the brethren" to sow
discord amongst the brethren. Well, I bought it hook, line, and sinker.
>From that time forward every time that I heard a minister mention the words
"prosperity" or "faith" as associated with the Faith Movement, I
immediately
tuned them out. This was because I took upon myself the same spirit in
which
the book was written. It was a critical, faultfinding, and judgmental
spirit. Because of this, I spent two years struggling...going nowhere in
my
Christian walk. All because I filtered everything through the grid of
that
book!
Let us ask ourselves these questions concerning defining issues of
authority, rule, leadership, and government in the Church: Are we
filtering
what we believe through the grid of past experience and subsequent
hurts,
biases, and resentments in relation to authority? Those who have been
hurt
by authority and are still carrying that hurt would not (often
unknowingly)
be comfortable with submitting to authority.
I do not believe the battle here is over whether we should follow Jesus
or
man. It is over differences in how we define and react to the use of
terms
such as authority, leadership, rule, and government! Of all the articles
I
read in the latest posting (some I skimmed through), I heard none
promoting
the idea of following a man above Jesus. Just because someone is called
a
leader in the Church does not take anything away from Christ being the
Head
or Leader in the Church. A worship leader is called that because his/her
responsibility is to lead people into the true worship of God. That is
not
taking away anything from Christ as being the Leader of the Church. True
worship leaders cause people to become dependant upon and fall in love
with
Jesus more and more. Such should be the nature of all true leadership in
the
Church. It is almost as if the terms "being under authority", "rule",
"leadership", etc. are treated as cuss words in this particular
discussion
(that is in reference to our relationship to one another in the Church)!
I
have no problem with being under the authority of a pastor (a simple
term
that defines a responsibility) or any other of the five-fold ministries.
I
will have a submissive attitude to all, but I will not subject myself to
all. There are those who have a counterfeit spiritual authority and I
will
not submit to them for even one hour!
Just because someone does not state something in the same manner in
which we
do does not mean they are in error. For example, Brian Tanguay stated
that
God told him he was a leader. Does that mean he is trying to get people
to
follow him instead of Christ? Absolutely Not! He is not going around
telling everyone that he is their leader! The term "leader" simply
defines
a God-given responsibility. That responsibility is to lead all to a
total
dependence upon Christ as the Vine.
I think you see my point here. Furthermore, where there have been
abuses,
the tendency in the Church has been to over-react. This produces
overkill. I
have seen the good destroyed with the bad because of this. We need to be
careful not to do that here. What we must do here is come to unity on
the
definitions of the before mentioned terms how we use them. I perceive
some
are giving them experiential definitions and this is causing division. I
am
not accusing or condemning anyone, but I do sense this in my sprit. I
suggest we call a time of prayer and soul searching in the group and
then
continue the discussion afterward. I believe the Lord desires to heal
some
hearts!
Lastly, I like what the pastor we had in Ft Worth said the first meeting
we
attended at that church: "We do not use people to build our ministry.
We
use our ministry to build people." Well, that wasn't just talk because
he
proved it. This was so refreshing and healing because we had just
experienced the opposite at the previous church we attended. Anyway, if
you
need me to clarify anything that I said let me know. In addition, as far
as
the Biblical definitions of the previously mentioned terms, I believe
they
have already been defined in this ongoing discussion.
Looking forward to your response.
Blessings,
Gary P.
Dear Jay,
dead men have no long term plans.
dead men have nothing to offend....nothing to gain.
in my visions i see THE GOOD SHEPHERD change TO THE LAMB....
THE KING OF GLORY. why do so many want there own piece of turf....
their own bunh of sheep to "rule rightiously" over? maybe they want a
"place"...a "position"....throw in ten sheckels and a shirt and many
will
sell GOD out in a minute.....
the day your post came....was the day after i sent out BAD
DECISIONS.......
>BAD DECISIONS
>Sometimes GOD does things unexpected. i was rereading the STORY OF
RUTH...which is part of the >REMEMBERANCE of SHAVUOT....THE FEAST OF
WEEKS.
Modern christians call it Pentacost.... and >quote Peter quoting the
Prophet
Joel. It sort of short changes the image we could have.
>But THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT had something else planned for me. In the last
three verses of JUDGES we >have a bizarre combination of images.....
>23 And the children of Benjamin did so, and took them wives, according to
their number, of them that danced, >whom they caught: and they went and
returned unto their inheritance, and repaired the cities, and dwelt in
>them. 24 And the children of Israel departed thence at that time, every man
to his tribe and to his family, and >they went out from thence every man
to
his inheritance. 25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every
>man
did that which was right in his own eyes.
>Theoretically we have a weird downhill spiral. The tribe of Benjamin has
been decemated by war with Israel >because of their sins and idolatry.
They
seemed to only be interested in women who danced....they caught >them
and
carried them away. Might seem romantic today but in reality it was
kidnapping and rape. But it was >a way to rebuild the tribe and everyone
"went along with it"....but then comes that last verse....25 In those
days
>there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own
eyes.
>Realistically the majority of the Book of Judges told us that they had been
doing "what was right in their own >eyes" for one long time. So when
Ruth
opens it is no real revelation when we hear....
>1 Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled, that there was a
famine in the land.
>Regretably we are seeing then what is now. Amos states it clearly. No new
revelation unless we keep >reading.
>And a certain man of Bethlehemjudah went to sojourn in the country of Moab,
he, and his wife, and his two >sons. 2 And the name of the man was
Elimelech, and the name of his wife Naomi, and the name of his two >sons
Mahlon and Chilion, Ephrathites of Bethlehemjudah. And they came into
the
country of Moab, and >continued there. 3 And Elimelech Naomi's husband
died;
and she was left, and her two sons. 4 And they took >them wives of the
women
of Moab; the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth:
and
they >dwelled there about ten years. 5 And Mahlon and Chilion died also
both
of them; and the woman was left of >her two sons and her husband.
>I had never heard anyone teach on the next two verses. But then again much
what i hear from THE MOST >HOLY SPIRIT is fresh plowing. But this is
indeed
a warning to any with ears to hear....
>The story begins in Bethlehem of Judah where FAMINE is occuring in THE
HOUSE OF BREAD. It is a clear >picture of the APOSTATE CHURCH in our
midst.
Take Ephesus, Pergamos, Sardis, Thyatira, and Laodicea >and roll them up
together and you have todays reality. A carnal, liberal, church preacing
humanism and the >doctrines of men and demons. They should be a place
where
THE BREAD OF LIFE IS FREELY GIVEN to all >of ABBA'S CHILDREN. Just does
not
happen for so many who hunger and thirst.
>Now the story begins with Elimelech and his wife Naomi. ELI MELECK means
"GOD IS KING" and NAOMI >means "PLEASANT". So should it be in THE HOUSE
OF
BREAD, only it is not. They have two sons. >MAHLON meas sick/illness and
CHILION means destruction/consumption. Imagine the FAMINE so intense
>that
THE KING'S KIDS are DISEASE AND DESTRUTION. It is no surprise they both
die.
>Now the STORY OF RUTH begins in tragedy and ends with a KINSMAN REDEEMER
that ''buys back" a >piece of land. And a PAGAN WOMAN to be his BRIDE.
We
all know that story and it is a great prophetic >promise we all share.
But
it does not negate a harsh reality that relates to the needs of today.
>1 Man is in sin.....
>2 Man runs away from where he would have been blessed if he repents and
returns.....
>3 DISEASE and DESTRUTION come because a GOD WHO WANTS TO BLESS OBEDIENCE IS
>FORCED TO CURSE THE DISOBEDIENT.
>Man has made BAD DECISIONS since THE GARDEN. Like in Judges we have a
"profesional clergy" that >sold out cheaply. The story goes...
>6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which
was right in his own eyes.
>7 And there was a young man out of Bethlehemjudah of the family of Judah,
who was a Levite, and he >sojourned there. 8 And the man departed out of
the
city from Bethlehemjudah to sojourn where he could find a >place: and he
came to mount Ephraim to the house of Micah, as he journeyed. 9 And
Micah
said unto him, >Whence comest thou? And he said unto him, I am a Levite
of
Bethlehemjudah, and I go to sojourn where I >may find a place. 10 And
Micah
said unto him, Dwell with me, and be unto me a father and a priest, and
I
will >give thee ten shekels of silver by the year, and a suit of
apparel,
and thy victuals. So the Levite went in. 11 >And the Levite was content
to
dwell with the man; and the young man was unto him as one of his sons.
12
>And Micah consecrated the Levite; and the young man became his priest, and
was in the house of Micah. 13 >Then said Micah, Now know I that the LORD
will do me good, seeing I have a Levite to my priest.
>So you can see Bethlehem of Judah had a problem in THE SPIRIT long before
THE FAMINE was noticed in >the NATURAL. Now here is a guy both Levite
and
Judean. But he wanted to "find a place". He did with Micah >and Micah's
IDOLS. But it says Micah "consecrated" the man. Micah figured GOD had to
bless him. How he >figured that out is a mystery, but many seem to be
caught
up in that mindset all over modern America. Many >expect GOD to bless
them
even when they are refusing to obey HIS WORD. GOD says there are things
HE
>HATES....and rightiously curses. Yet man continues to sin and expects
blessing. This could be called >"iniquity". But it could also be seen as
rebellion. In the NATURAL it could be called "INSANITY". To demand
>BLESSING
when HIS WORD calls for repentance is exactly that, insanity.
>But will THE PRODIGAL come to his senses and return to THE FATHER'S HOUSE?
In my spirit i hear two >"witnesses". Both say it is too late and i
grieve.
>4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted
of the heavenly gift, and were >made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And
have
tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to >come, 6 If
they
shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they
crucify to
themselves the >Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
>1 Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet
my mind could not be >toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and
let
them go forth. 2 And it shall come to pass, if they say >unto thee,
Whither
shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such
as
are for death, to >death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword;
and
such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as >are for the
captivity, to the captivity.
>FAMINE IS BAD....BUT THE SWORD CAN NOT BE AS EASILY IGNORED....AS FOR
>CAPTIVITY........SELAH.......
>let those with ears to hear
>shemuel
JAY...forgive me, but i keep seeing the circle that this whole
"discussion"
keeps repeating. for all the "prophets and apostles" that are running in
these ''circles'' i wonder why no one else sees it. and then "cold
reality"
slaps me in my face. "what was before will be again".....and i
grieve....
ADANAI YHVH ELOHIM once told me long ago that i was living out the last
five
verses of EZEKIEL 33....
HE talked about HIS WATCHMEN.....and their watchmen....
when all these things come to pass.....hard and heavy are HIS WORDS on
my
spirit.
if i had never "walked" there i would not be aware of the problem. it's
already been said....
i know it is a lot to read....but it all fits too tightly......
it is a time to remember....
Friend, this is another area of interest to me. Authority is something I
have
seen abused by many self-proclaimed leaders in the Church. Sometimes, I
think
that us Christians are the biggest offenders of Biblical "Rules of
Order". We
must understand that authority is not lordship over the flock, but
influence
in that righteous walk with Christ. As I studied Paul, I see that he had
prophets like Agabus, confirming his hearing. I see that prophets also
were
not authoritative in the new testament as they were in the OT. Their
calling
has not changed, but rather their "position" has changed. Don't get me
wrong. The Prophet can preach, teach, evangelize, and pastor and would
have
authority over his flock should he pastor. Likewise the Apostle. The
Apostle
Paul, for example, had a certain authority over the Churches he helped
start.
He was their overseer, yet he never "bossed" them around, being always
mindful of their Bishops and Pastors (Elders). There was a certain
amount of
reverent respect for the men of God appointed to leadership. We need
that in
the Church today. The Prophet comes under the leadership of the Church
where
he ministers. If the Pastor restricts him and will not hear God, then he
is
quenching the Spirit. If the Pastor gives him the lattitude he rightly
deserves, then God will use the Prophet. Prophets are subject to one
another,
but then so are we. When no one is hearing from God, there is always the
Prophet with a direct line of communication to the Father. Submission to
him
and to the Word depends on our Faith. Authority for him to speak is
already
given to him of God, but are we willing to hear?
Praise God in the highest and Glory to His Son Jesus the Christ, our
Prophet.
To Brother Jay and Others:
We have to understand that people (whether believers or not) are still
people. And when we put our trust in them instead of in GOD to work
THROUGH
them, we have missed the mark and given glory to the creation rather
than
the Creator. We have reversed the order that God has set. I personally
have
been asked to leave a church that I belonged to for over 3 years because
I
believed this simple truth. My pastor wanted myself and others to
follow
him, in spite of what the Word said and what God had revealed to many of
us.
Andrea Simmons
"When a servant comes in from plowing or taking care of sheep, he
doesn't just sit down and eat. 8 He must first prepare his
master's meal and serve him his supper before eating his own. 9 And the
servant is not even thanked, because he is merely
doing what he is supposed to do. 10 In the same way, when you obey me
you should say, 'We are not worthy of praise. We
are servants who have simply done our duty.' "
i dunno Jay this seems to sum it a ll up you're right, but I thank the
Lord for those who have accepted the call and been a voice
for Him before I could hear Him. My Pastor that baptised me I could't
get in to talk with him in almost a year of trying though I
came to church as much as he did. If I had camped out on his door like
Uiah the Hitite, who knows. they are all big teaching
stations the successful churches. not really the Church, but God somehow
allows this now and may come into the Kingdom in
this manner. We all want a shinning City on a hill. Allmust change and
the new heaven and new earth must come . when I find
the perfect church I will either know I'm in heaven or I should
counselmyself to not join lest I foul it all up. Worshipping this
past Sunday I felt the Spirit of God gently whirling around me from a
breeze from and open door (yet there was no open door)
and momentarily later the Pastor gently wihspered that the presence of
God is is hovering around manyof you now..may he
hvoer around you this evening he blessed my this afternoon in a drug
store wher I bought a vegetail video for my seven year old
boy that I'm raisng by myself. he is wonderful an wondrful counselor he
will never leave us. for leader ship read Joshua. I met a
n African man whom I consider a true apostle and has a large following
in hi own country and a Church of 10,000 ( in this large
congregation there are only twenty cars). He was asked how he kept
humble. "Once a day I look up and scream. "I AM
NOTHING!" It will always be this way until He comes to set up His
government.
In Him, James Kelly
June 5, 2000
Bless you for your response. We are all in agreement that ONLY Jesus is
the
leader in every Christian's life. Jesus is the leader anywhere and
anytime we
meet for collective worship. Praise God, I am also in agreement with
those
who have written in to this site about being put out of churches
(ditto).
Remember, Jesus was put out of the synagogue too. He was the true
leader, but
they did not recognize that. He is still the true leader today, but
again,
many do not recognize HIm. If we can't have Jesus and the Holy Spirit
running
the Church, then who is? Jay, I appreciate this site. It is a sure
blessing
of God working through you, His servant. Thank you.
love in Jesus, Joseph
There are those who would divide the Body of Christ, and that simply
is not of God...
Eph. 1:8-10 makes it so clear what is the will of God and that it "has
been revealed to
us"....
"...That He may bring all things together into One, that is Him"....
As we strive for Unity In Christ, with His Leadership, we will arrive
at the point where He
desires to bring us.
Continue to promote the Unity of the Body of Christ and He will
continue to bless.
Paul
enoch777
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they
watch for your souls,
as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not
with grief: for that is
unprofitable for you.
from 5259 and eiko (to yield, be "weak");; v
AV - submit (one's) self 1; 1
1) to resist no longer, but to give way, yield (of combatants) 2)
metaph. to yield to authority
and admonition, to submit
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee
from you.
1) to arrange under, to subordinate 2) to subject, put in subjection 3)
to subject
one's self, obey 4) to submit to one's control 5) to yield to one's
admonition or
advice 6) to obey, be subject ++++ A Greek military term meaning "to
arrange
[troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader".
In non-
military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating,
assuming
responsibility, and carrying a burden".
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether
it be to the king,
as supreme;
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you
be subject one to
another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and
giveth grace to the
humble.
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God
when your post came yesterday i wondered what to do. it seems that many
are
"looking for a place"....even now. seems BABYLON just keeps lingering on
and
on. THE WORD says to "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE''....it says nothing
about building a NEW BABYLON once you are out. but that is what i
"picked
up"
as i read so many of the responses in your post. why do we keep seeing
JOHN
and
JAMES seeking places to ''sit'' in "THE KINGDOM TO COME".....and then in
the
next breath say "KINGDOM NOW"....built around the "IMPERIAL
ME!!!".......
bob neumann....called too many things.....
love in Jesus, Joseph
Ap77joseph@cs.com
I find it funny and almost relieving to have received this last email.
This a subject that has caused great chaos and confusion in many places
and
in the hearts of many people. I totally agree that Jesus is Lord and,
besides Him, there is no other. That is why I am not prone to follow
every
new wave of doctrine that hits the street or to follow any man. Man, in
a
nutshell, is a spirit entrapped in flesh. In most cases, the flesh has
dominion over the spirit; therefore, the person is led by it. We have
wills, emotions, hang-ups, and other issues in our lives that can hinder
us
from understanding God's will and performing that which we know. God,
His
Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not that way. They are perfect and
just
in all their dealings with us. They cannot err. Their very foundation
is
that of truth. God, who is perfect, appoints men who are imperfect to
show
forth His glory and to exhibit the truth that He lives and is powerful.
He
causes perfection to flow out of something that couldn't have possibly
accomplish such things alone.
We were called jealous, rebellious, witches--all of these done
publically,
and never asked for a private conference. I do believe that Matthew
18:15-17
sets the order in which such a situatoin should be handled. God places
leaders in our midst to speak HIS word, teach HIS word, and to nurture
HIS
flock. God gave five gifts to the church--the apostle, the prophet, the
pastor, the teacher, and the evangelist. He made no distinction between
which was greater or which has more authority. Still, they ALL play a
role
in the edifying of the church. Each one has its own distinctive
responsibilities, but neither is greater than the other. We are to
submit
to them in God's love and vice versa. Otherwise, there would be (as
there
is now) massive confusion in the church. We often give more honor or
attribute more worth to a pastor than what is actually due--and I don't
say
this as an enraged church member, but as one who bears the truth. My
husband and I are pastors! We (the leaders) are simply
watchmen--stewards,
if you will--and we have to be careful to exemplify good stewardship
over
that which God places us. If we are not careful to do that, we are held
accountable for those that we have wounded. That is why we must
continually
lift us prayers for the leadership. Because if the head is sick, the
whole
body will be. And if we pray for a mass of already wounded people to
rush
into the church without sincere and Godly leadership, then they will be
even
more wounded and oppressed. God is God and He shares His glory with no
one.
Let Him and the Holy Spirit lead and everything will flow in order.
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