Latter Rain Rapture Discussion

February 11, 2000

Boy oh boy,

The issue of the rapture with this group has brought in more material than any other discussion. Certainly much to consider but to get through it all is tough. I will take more time and come up with some highlights and scriptural references to support our position, all from your responses by the way - this is sure a good group. And I included the responses in totality this time.

Only one of us has mentioned a belief in a pre-trib rapture. Since that is the only dissenting voice, it is put up front and Tony has addressed some good questions for us to answer. He has brought up some of the same questions that I have about the resurrections which I have always thought need to be addressed.

Also, only one of us has come up with an amillenial position.

With so much material to the contrary, with this and the last two mailings, it could be easy or difficult at the same time to pinpoint a response to the pre-trib viewpoint. For myself, it is easy to believe against it. There are just too many verses in scripture that teach otherwise, if left up to a clear understanding of the Bible, the doctrine should have never come up. There will be a rapture, what it actually consists of is in question and there is nothing to support pre-trib except a few verses taken out of context.

What I would like to discuss now is why there are so many that take a pre-trib position when it is not clearly taught in the Bible or by the church fathers and the five-fold prophetic community is coming so strongly unanimous against it. Some of that is already been addressed but what is the answer we give those who believe so strongly in the taking away of the saints before the second coming? I do not think that this is an issue that should separate us, like foundational issues for example. But I do believe it is harming the church in that it is giving Christians a false security and puts them in a luke-warm position of thinking that they will not be a part of the end-time harvest because they will already be taken away. Again, that is only my opinion and not something that should separate us.


Jay, (I'll try to be short, and to the point)

I believe in a pre-trib rapture. From the responses so far, some are making the mistake of thinking pre-trib believers use Matthew 24 as the rapture. Matthew 24 is not talking about the rapture. Matthew 24 is describing the Second Coming. It is true that the bible doesn't mention the word "rapture". If one were to consider 1 thess 4:16-17, which describes the meeting in the air with the Lord, this is still not enough evidence for a pre-trib rapture.

There are a few questions I would have for those who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but first I'd like to point out a few Scriptures that I believe do point to a pre-trib rapture, in conjunction with other scriptural evidence.

The book of John gives good evidence of a Rapture. John 13:36 gives us our first clue. Here Jesus tells Peter that where he is going, he cannot follow, but he will later. John 14:2-3 also gives excellent evidence of a rapture. Then look at John 14:18-31 in it's entirety. Here Jesus reveals a mystery. In verse 22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot) asks Jesus "But Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" If you notice, Jesus doesn't actually come right out and answer Judas, but He picks up the answer, or somewhat of an answer in verse 28-29, then cuts of the conversation in verse 31. Now, some may say that Jesus was talking about the disciples seeing him after his resurrection. I don't think so. Look at verse 20. Here Jesus states that "On that day you WILL realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." Now, after Jesus was resurrected he did reveal himself to the disciples, and others. However, he was not immediately recognized; John 20:14, and Thomas had to physically touch him to know; John 20:24-29.

Now my questions to Others who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, please answer the following:

1) Explain why Jesus tells us that no one knows the day or the hour of His coming but the Father alone. During the time of His second Coming, this world is in so much chaos, there is not going to be much of a surprise at all.

2) Why has God consistently brought His people to safety every time, prior to any calamity? ie.. Noah, Lot, etc

3) During the time of the millennium, the Earth is repopulated. If Believers, are resurrected at His Second Coming, who populates the Earth during the millennium? Resurrected Believers cannot reproduce themselves; (Matt 22:30). Also, Satan is let loose after the Millennium to deceive, he can't deceive the Believers in resurrected bodies.(Rev 20:7-10)

4) Can non pre-trib Believers explain John 14:2-3?

5) Rev 19:11 clearly describes the Second Coming. In verse 14 the armies of heaven are following. The armies of heaven are the Believers.(Proven by the fine white linen they are wearing; read Rev 19:8, which explains it). This is also consistent with Rev 17:14.

My questions is where are the Believers coming from, if they haven't been previously taken from Earth?

In closing, there is no doubt there is going to be a Rapture. Jesus himself, gives many clues with parables. Jesus also states that no one knows the day or the hour. At His second coming, more than half the population is already destroyed, the planet is almost destroyed, and total chaos is going on. Now, how can the people who are alive at that time, be eating, drinking, and carrying on like it's just another day? Matthew 24 is clearly describing a series of events that lead up to the return of Christ, and the gathering of the wicked, who survive the tribulation as He returns. Christ is also answering more than one question put to him by the disciples.

May God bless all in searching for answers.......... Tony

The issue i wish to place before you does not discuss THE RAPTURE ISSUE persee....but beyond it. It goes to the HEART of this TIME we are in....a time of many deceptions and great delusions. If we accept the concepts of both INERANCY and PURPOSE of THE BIBLE....HIS WORD we have a conundrum developing from these issues coming to the fore in these "last days". The last 4 verses of the Bible are:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Many would say verses 18 and 19 deal with only this last book Of Revelation....but anyone have a problem with dropping any scriptures or adding to what GOD SAID? I find myself in the desert when THE LAMB SPOKE.....

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (KJV) Funny how Luke 4:4 says the same thing....4:4.....

So personally i have a problem tearing out/tearing apart any of HIS WORDS.

Therefore we have a conundrum. We can label it "RAPTURE'' and play games with semantics and terminology. The real problem is what do we do with Paul? You know he's to blame for this whole thing. If he had just not written 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18....

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (KJV)

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV)

Frankly we are not "comforting" anyone with any of this lately if you think about it. If we could throw out these 14 verses there would be no debate, argument, etc..... But then wouldn't we have to throw out everything from Paul? Isn't that the "litmus" test? If one thing is in error, all is contaminated? So just maybe we have to accept these verses and look to what "images" Paul is showing us. If we can limit the issue to the exact place of contention it might work out.....and it does.

Actually the whole mess lies in just one verse....17. (personally this is one of those times i could shoot the King James so called scholars for adding both "words'' and ''punctuation''). Twice they add the conjunction "and" when it might not really belong. Especially in verse 15. either way this "caught up" is the problem.

Many argue that "rapture" does not appear in the "Bible". What they are saying is that it is not in their "translation". It appears in the Latin Bible. All it is is a translation of a greek term, "harpezo". Both "harpezo" and "rapture" mean to be "violently snatched away". Paul wrote it that way and Jerome did the best he could to capture the "energy" of the image. 1200 years later our "english" scholars did the best they could from what they had. What is missing from the whole argument we have today is the HEBREW term, "NATZAL". or....resurrection of the dead....

Isaiah 26:16-21 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.
17 Like as a woman with child, [that] draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, [and] crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. (KJV)

Now i have heard "so called" "modern scholars" teach that Resurrection was something brand new from Jesus. That there is no mention of "resurrection" in the OT. If so then Mary and Martha were real psychics when the Lazarus story comes around....

John 11:19-27 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat [still] in the house.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give [it] thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. (KJV)

"Natzal"....awesome word that goes so far beyond "beam me up, Scottie".

We know Paul is speaking of a time shortly ahead. It is part of a sequece of events. What troubles me is the argument is based on "snatching away" and not "changing". Both are clear actions that Paul said will occur...... look again at this........16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord........ if we overlap this with Isaiah what do we get???? Look at Isaiah 26 merging with 27.....
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. 1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. .................

here is a clear sequence of events....
actually 27:1 alludes to 3 different entities....funny John mentioned 3 also....
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (KJV)
THE DRAGON OF THE SEA of ISAIAH 27:1 is THE BEAST.....The First Seal White
Rider....the Antichrist.

If "Rapture" is fails to deal with the present persecution of our "family" throughout the world. If "rapture" is the "chamber" of protection while the indignation "passes over" it applies to all ABBA'S Kids equally. We all need it.
Sooner or later.
Sooner or later we "all'' will be with THE LORD....
It's just a matter of time....when time does not matter any more.....

please weigh these thoughts and consider the images, patterns, and sequences within HIS PURPOSE.

******I got this off the web without a name on it - Jay******

Don't you think that if the rapture existed, that Jesus would have taught it? HE didn't. Wouldn't the apostles have taught the rapture if it existed? They didn't. How come the old church Fathers (with 2 exceptions) didn't teach the rapture? Do you honestly think that all of these very learned people would ignore it, - if it existed? Certainly not, they didn't teach it because they couldn't, it doesn't exist. Actually the theory only came into prominent existence about 170 years ago, in fact 1830.

The verse the ministers always quote is, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". REV.4:1. Who went to heaven? - John. How many went to heaven? one - Just one. And don't forget that John had to return to earth again, in order to write the Book of Revelation. He did not return to heaven after it's completion, he died on earth, - but the ministers forget to tell you this !.

They next turn to words of Paul, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him". I.THES.5:9,10. They are quick to point to verse 9 but neglect verse 10. Verse 9 does not specify who "us" is, it easily be refering to the 144,000 in REV. Chapter 7. Reading all of I.THES.5, verse 2 referes to verse 4 and to II.PETER.3:10; verse 3 to DANIEL 9:27; verse 5-8 are a clear warning to be on your guard or be vigilant as it says in verses 14-27; verse 11 say improve morally, spiritual benefits, and in 12 and 13 he urges you to give advice and warnings, to inform and remind others, and think highly. I.THES is further explained in, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed". I.COR.15:51,52. These two verses are also heavily relied on. What is Paul saying? Look at his words closely.

-1- A mystery.
-2- Not all will sleep, but all will be changed.
-3- It will happen in a moment or the blink of an eye.
-4- The dead will be raised incorruptible
-5- And most important, missed by most, When ? - At the last trumpet. Where and when is the last trumpet sounded?

Revelation Chapter 11 Verse 15. The trumpets are God's wrath. Almost all the punishments from both Satan and God have been executed by this time. So where is the rapture, - that great saving from the punishments?

The rapture theory was started about 1830 by a British preacher, John Darby who founded the Plymouth Brethren Church. The rapture is a part of several theories called dispensation. Under this theory God had different laws for different people at different times.

Early in the twentieth century an American lawyer and minister, Dr. C.I. Scofield authored the Scofield Reference Bible. Through Dr. Scofield's teachings, Protestant evangelicals popularized the dispensationalism of which the rapture is a part.

Depending on the preacher, Jesus may return to save the believers at one of two time periods, (1) at the beginning of Revelation Chapter 6, which is the beginning of the seven year time period, or (2) at the half way point or 3-1/2 years into the punishments, or just before Satan arrives, just before Revelation Chapter 9. In either case it is a secret arrival of Christ and they use I.Thessalonians.4 written by Paul.

Paul had preached and founded a church in the Greek city of Thessalonia in about 51 A.D. Because of persecution he was forced to leave the city and while in Corinth, sent a letter back to the Christians in the community, telling them to hold unto their faith and to comfort them in that the dead would be raised by Jesus.

Teachers of the rapture rely on I.THES.4, and divide all the scriptures into two parts. All the scriptures that discuss the resurrection of the saints and their gathering to Christ, and second, all the scriptures that discuss Christ taking vengeance on the wicked people and nations on earth. These two periods are seperated by a period of years. If you read the Book of Revelation there is no separation but a continuous series of events covering 7 years. In I.COR.15:52 it is very specific in that the last trumpet is blown and the dead rise up first.

The very words of Jesus state, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other". MATT.24:31. Notice here that again the trumpet must sound, yet back in verse 15 the "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place", and again in MARK.13:14, this is well into the latter days and can be found in Daniel.11:45.

In II.THES. Paul explains how the true christians would know when the time of Jesus's second coming was getting near, but I prefer the very words of Jesus. When they asked "saying, Master, but what shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? And he said, "Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then he said unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" LUKE.21:7 - 11. And "And when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh". LUKE.21:20.

So you see there is no secret coming of Jesus to save us in a rapture.

Most of you will continue to believe in the rapture because you want a nice safe, easy way, to escape the future punishments. Nearly all teachers of this theory believe that the beginning of Revelation.6:1 will begin with the signing of a seven year peace deal in the Middle East. This is based on Daniel.9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the obligation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate". One week of Jewish terms means, seven years. Mr. Barak of Israel claims this signing will happen in Sept./Oct. of 2000. The Jews will soon begin the construction of this holy temple mentioned in DAN.9:27. So for a rapture to take place, it must occur between now and the end of October 2000, as REV.6:1 begins almost immediately after the signing of the seven year peace contract or peace deal. The rapture, or disappearance, would involve at least 1 Billion people. There is no way it could not be noticed, or hid from the public. See you next year.

Hi Jay

Well regarding the saints…I was going to write on that too but then decided that there is a lot of truth to what you are saying…though I was going to make the same point about Corinthians. There is obviously a balance here and I for one have not found it yet. Revelation 19:7 says that the bride has made herself ready, and that obviously is not referring to the cross. Jesus has bought us but we need to be ready for his return with oil in our lamps. It says that for those who look for him he will appear a second time unto salvation. That is not salvation by works, that is the teaching of scripture. The bible says 'make your calling and election sure'. How do we do that, by believing to the salvation of our souls. Also if the verse in Revelation 4 verse one (come up hither) is about the best verse to support a doctrine then that confirms that it has no support from the clear teaching of scripture and that it rests on shaky ground. That verse is inconclusive at best. The fact is there are plenty of plain scriptures which teach the complete opposite.

Hey I would like say to JK if you are reading this that I don't agree with an old earth but I have friends who do and to consign you to the curses of revelation over it is evil and wicked. Don't listen to that man on the radio. He recently altered his views himself from denying the eternal Sonship of Jesus for years and years, and showed no remorse and expressed no apology for the people whom he has deceived over the years. He is one who likes to hurl rocks but his own house of glass is going to come crashing down. I agree with a lot of what Gil said, but obviously the fallen nature has been with us since the beginning but Paul said that the Man of Sin would be revealed at a point in time after the restrainer has gone. Historically people have always pointed toward the papacy as the fulfilment of these verses with the restrainer being the Roman power. The 1260 days being the 1260 years corresponding to the mediaeval period when the papacy rose to temporal power and exercised authority over the kings of the earth and made war with the saints with crusades and the inquisition. I have tons of information on all this if anyone is interested. So I agree with Gil's point about the temple not being a building, but maybe it refers to the professing church in which the papacy claimed to hold the place of God and Christ on the seat of Peter. I think it was Spurgeon who referring to the papacy said 'if this be not antichrist then I know not what is'.

Concerning the millennium, I would call myself amillennial, but I admit that I honestly do not understand the significance of the chapters in Revelation that speak of the thousand years. However it seems to me that the teaching of other scriptures is inconsistent with a literal millennium. I could be wrong but that is how it appears to me. For example Christ is reigning as King now. See Acts 2: "Therefore being a prophet and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him that of the fruit of his body according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on the throne . . . Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God. . . For David did not ascend himself into the heavens, but he says "The Lord said to my Lord. "Sit at my right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" " "

Jesus reigns until his enemies are made his footstool. This is seen in Psalm 2 "Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Christ, saying "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us. . ."Yet I have set my King upon my holy hill of Zion" "I will declare the decree: the Lord has said to me, You are my Son, this day I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will give you the heather for your inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession."" Also Paul teaches that Christ shall reign until all enemies are under his feet, and the last enemy is death. "Christ the firstfruits, afterwards those that are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father...For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy. . .is death. . .We shall all be changed-in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. . . so when this corruption has put on incorruption. . . then shall be brought to pass the saying..."Death is swallowed up in victory"" !Corinthians 15:22-58. Also 2 Thes. Chap 1...says that when Christ returns he is coming visibly with the angels to destroy the those that do not know God with eternal destruction from his presence and the glory of his power. Now it seems to me that it would be difficult to fit into this nations surviving and going on for a thousand years. Also 2 Peter chap. 3.. . seems to suggest that when the Lord returns the heavens and earth will be destroyed...verses 7,10-13. Well I am far from having all the answers but this is how things seem to me. Look forward to the next instalment!



by Brother Jim

There is much confusion and concern about the above stated question. Many camps of the Lord have different opinions and doctrines on the subject; but we want the word of the Lord to shine His divine light on the subject to find the truth. We know that Jesus will return soon.

We will begin by examining this teaching of the rapture, and see where it originated, and why it has such a strong grip on so many believers. Later, we will look at the bible, and let the Holy Spirit throw His divine light on the word, and show how it harmonizes with what God is doing in the earth today.


The word rapture does not appear anywhere in the bible. Yet the word has been associated with the coming of Jesus, and spoken of as the blessed hope of the Church. Although this word is not found in the bible, it is found in the dictionary. Some dictionaries give more definitions and shades of meaning than others, but the dictionary I now have before me says simply; rapture - strong feeling that fills the mind; great joy.

However, to most Fundamentalists and Pentecostal people, the word rapture brings to their mind a picture of white robed saints leaving the earth and soaring through the air to a meeting in the clouds with the Lord. This very image has been preached evangelistically until many people have come to accept it as gospel fact; and will even fight to the separation from brethren over it. None, if any, ever bother to check and see if that is what the bible actually says.

According to the Evangelists, the trumpet may sound before the meeting is over, or before you wake up in the morning. When that happens, the cemeteries will burst open, and the dead will rise. Those still living will meet the Lord in the clouds. The reason for this is, they say, is because the Antichrist will appear, and the Great Tribulation will begin.

God is far too good to let His people go through such tribulation. The obvious implication is that they are too weak to survive in the face of such demonic power. They will attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb up in Heaven, get their rewards for their labors here, and have a wonderful 7 years of joy and singing. Meanwhile, unsaved loved ones, children who may not have been born again, and the unsaved millions will suffer untold agonies on earth. Good enough for them, seems to be the general attitude, They should have been prepared like me.

This may not be your attitude; this may not even be your way of thinking about the rapture. Even within denominations, there are wide differences of opinion on the subject. They range from the caught up theory, to those who just do not know, to those who are shaky. I have had many preachers write to me, or say to me; I preach on the rapture, but I don't have a witness to it, nor can I find it in the scripture.

Because we are daring to declare and preach the truth of the bible on the glorious subject of His coming; some say we do not believe in the coming of the Lord, or even in the catching up of His saints. This is not so. We believe in a very real coming of the Lord, while the rapture people actually believe in the departing of the saints. We teach the appearing of Jesus, while they teach the disappearing of the Church - more later.

For those who believe in a geographical removal of the Saints from the earth at His coming, there are 3 basic views.


This view states that God's people will be removed from the earth just before the tribulation begins. Thus, they will not be here for the those 7 years. One of the scriptures they use to back up their position is:

Rev 4:1-2 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. :2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

They say this is where John saw the Church being caught up to heaven from the earth. But in fact it says no such thing. It does not even imply that John left the Isle of Patmos during this time he was ?in the spirit. Read what John says:

Rev 1:10-11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, :11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

He plainly says that he was in the spirit; then he heard a great voice as of a trumpet. Another scripture they use is:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This they say, proves we are removed from the earth during the time of tribulation; but it actually states no such thing. In fact, Verse 9 says the opposite. It is telling us that God will bring the enemy down before our feet. We will have to be here for that to happen.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


This view states that the bible teaches that the Church will have to go through the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation while the Antichrist is warring against the saints. Then the Saints will be raptured and spared second half of the tribulation. They believe this because the bible teaches that His people must go through great fire and into a glorious victory. Yet there are other scriptures that show a place of great joy and glory for the overcomer during this time, so they surmise that God will take them off the earth during the second half.


This view states that the Church goes through the full 7 years; and that after

the tribulation the saints will be caught up, as spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. They see the Church being empowered by the Spirit to survive the worst onslaughts of Satan. They believe that God is able to keep His children in the midst of the fire, as He did with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace. This is an admirable attitude; much closer to the truth than the pre-trib view that was born out of fear and selfishness.

If this view were correct, it would mean 7 years of horrible suffering and untold agony for God's people, and almost total destruction of the Church. But this is not so.

Is 26:20-21 :20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. :21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

If some one asks, will the Church be here for the tribulation, the answer is no! But we will be here during the tribulation, but we will not be here for it. While the day of the Lord is the day of the judgment of the wicked; that same day of the Lord will be a day of glory and power for his anointed people. I intend to stay here for the glory!

Some say Isaiah 26:20-21 proves God will remove His people, but in fact it states the opposite. We will be here while the wrath of God is being poured out, but it will not be poured out upon us; for we are dead, and our lives are hid in Christ. We shall be in the ark of comfort, as Noah was. The bible says, "As it was in the days of Noah."


Some liken Enoch to the pre-tribulation rapture, who was translated that he should not see death, and say he is a type of those who are to be raptured before the tribulation. But Enoch did not live during the time of the flood, when judgment was poured out upon the earth. Enoch left for heavenly places 669 years before the flood! Jesus said, As it was in the days of Noah, not as it was in the days of Enoch. And Noah went through the flood, protected by the ark he had prepared and entered into. And when he stepped out of the ark, the flood was over, and the wicked had been taken. He stepped out and inherited the earth. He and his family were the only ones left, so they now owned the earth, for everyone else who might have had a deed to a piece of property was gone, along with their heirs. So no one was left to dispute Noah's claim. He had literally inherited the earth! This principle is laid out clearly in:

Psalm 37:1-39 1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.? :2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb. :3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shall be fed. :4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. :5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. :6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. :7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. :8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. :9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. :10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. :11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. :12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. :13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. :14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. :15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. :16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked. :17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous. :18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. :19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. :20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. :21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth. :22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off. :23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. :24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. :25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. :26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed. :27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore. :28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. :29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. :30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. :31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. :32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. :33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. :34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. :35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. :36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. :37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. :38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. :39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Paul never preached a message of fear. He never told the people they would escape the battle. In fact, Ephesians 6 he urges the Church (for that is who the scriptures were written to) to put on the whole armor of God in order to be ready to face whatever would come in tribulation. I don't know how anyone could miss that, but they seem to ignore it.

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

No flying away, but a standing church. The only escape I can find in the bible is found in:

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God and His people have always been victorious. Our ?hiding place" is in Christ, in God.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

It is the fearful, the faithless, or the wicked who seek a geographical hiding place. Some want to leave the earth and go some where else, while some cry for the rocks to fall on them and hide them.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Many today are seeking a natural hiding place; a farm, a foreign country, a wilderness, and so on. It will not work. This is only self-rapture. You cannot escape from the Devil or the Antichrist that way. Your only protection and comfort is in Christ, and in total obedience to the word and Spirit of God.


Confused by now? No doubt. For as yet we have only explained the various theories that are being preached about his coming, and painted a negative picture. But hold on, it gets better. The people that speak about the Lord=s return are concerned with when it happens, i.e., pre, mid, post. But the Spirit is speaking expressly that in this last day of the Lord, the timing is not as important as what actually happens. Set aside the pictures you might have seen for a moment.


Have you heard of the rvingite movement, also known as the Catholic Apostolic Church? The Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol 12, 1966 issue, pages 648-649, describe Ed Irving and the controversy over his teachings in Scotland and England in the early 1800's. He was excommunicated by the London Presbytery, and in 1833 was condemned and deposed from the ministry of the Church of Scotland because of His teaching concerning the sinfulness of Christ's humanity. He also began to teach the rapture of the Church, after a young Scottish lass by the name of Margaret Macdonald went into a trance, and described a vision in which she said she saw the Saints leaving the earth at the return of the Lord, before the tribulation.

This took place in the spring of 1830 in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her vision was written in a book by R.N. Noland and printed in 1861. Prior to that time the apostles and those who followed always preached that the Church was victorious in and during the tribulation. From these beginnings, grew the modern day theory of the rapture - a thing that falsely pretended to be from the Spirit of God. It caught on fast, as does all false teachings and doctrines.

Listed below are some of the people deceived by this teaching. These men pushed it for all it was worth.

John Darby - a Plymouth Brethren who has his own version of the bible.

C.I. Scofield - a bible commentator.

Clarence Larken - a chart builder of dispensational truth.

In the early 1900's, when the Spirit was poured out in Pentecostal power, their was no new light on this subject of the return of Christ. They merely carried forward the same false doctrine. Larken=s books and charts were used to teach many preachers. He denied speaking in tongues. He said it was of the devil; right in Pentecostal schools!


Let's look into the word, and see what this ?catching up is really all about.

Today many Churches are dying on the vine, but God continues to move by His Spirit. Those who are hungry, and open minded to the Spirit, are hearing from God in a new and glorious way. Fifty years after the outpouring of the Spirit, another move of God began, and swept around the world.

God has always seen His people as one body, but the divisive denominations and sects were not of God. The cry of the Spirit was to come out of her, My people. It became evident that no man made thing or church could contain the thing God desired to do in the Church that He was building.

Let me make sure that you the reader understands that the system, and the people who belong to God that are bound up in it, are not one and the same. God loves His people; but He hates the Babylonian system that divides the Saints of God into warring camps, and hinders them from progressing into greater spiritual truth.

Another wonderful truth that God began to give revelation on was the coming of Christ. First of all, He gave revelation of the mystery of the appearing of Christ in you, the hope of glory. Light came on the sons of God, the overcomer, the manchild company, the army of the Lord, the Melchizedek priesthood, the tabernacle of Moses, the tabernacle of David, the temple of Solomon, the Zadok priesthood, the holy place, the most holy place, the last day, the Christ man, the prophetic movement (since 1988, the Apostolic movement (next on the scene), and many other deep and profound truths from the heart of the Father. None of these truths can be made to fit into the rapture.

Look at: 1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, Luke 17, Isaiah 26:20, Matthew 25 and the 10 virgins; All twisted out of shape trying to make them look like they were saying that we will be taken off the earth at the rapture.


Many things have been preached about us being ready for the rapture, but look at the word.

Matt 24:37-41 :37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. :38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, :39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It will be the same...

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. :41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The flood came and took away the wicked. The scripture speaks plainly:

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Noah was not destroyed, but delivered. Therefore taken means to be destroyed, according to Luke's account of Jesus words. Do you still want to be taken?

The rapture theory is a scared cow, and to question its teaching, or expose it as false, can get one in a position of having many people who have no understanding of the scripture quite angry at you.


In the first part of Matt 24, Jesus tells us the sign of His coming.

Matt 24:21-31 :21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. :22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. :23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. :24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. :25 Behold, I have told you before. :26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. :27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. :28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. :29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: :30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. :31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect are not the Jews, but are the Christians. Let's take a look at some more elect scriptures:

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

This should end all arguments on this point.


Good question. For centuries, men have built fables around what they think it says.

1 Thes 4:13-18 :13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Paul starts out by saying that he doesn't want anyone to be ignorant. Those who are asleep are those who have already died before the return of the Lord. These dead will see the glory of that day along with all the living saints.

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. :15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul is telling the saints that those who have died will return to the earth with the Lord when He returns. Further, he tells us in 2 Corinthians 5, that when a man dies his body goes one to place, while his spirit goes to another. To be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. We are not sleeping or unconscious in His presence. That part of us which has eternal life is still living and conscious in His presence. Our dead bodies, that part which ceases to have life, sleeps in the grave. Whether it is put in a tomb, or it is cremated, or eaten by lions, makes no difference. When the spirit leaves the body, the body immediately descends into the state of death (into the lower part of the earth), while the spirit ascends to the Lord.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

At the coming of Christ the order will be reversed. The physical body rises from the state of death, into a glorified state, like unto His body of glory.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Meanwhile, the conscious spirit, still in the presence of God, descends with Jesus back to this visible earth realm, and is rejoined to the body that it left at death. Only now, it is in a much higher realm (higher does not mean somewhere up in the sky).

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. :18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul is comforting the hearts of the believers about the fate of their loved ones who have gone on with the Lord. He is not saying, Don't worry, we shall see them some day up in Heaven; but instead that they are coming back with Jesus for the great day of the Lord. Read on in chapter 5 and see that is so.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus is our reward, and if we did the work of God we will receive, and be received into Him.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Just believe. 1 Thessalonians never speaks of being caught up, but of descending back down from Heaven. In Revelation it also speaks of the Church, or the New Jerusalem coming down.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


The Bible never said that Jesus was coming to catch up His Church and take it away. It never said that Jesus would rescue His Bride from this earth, or hide Her from the Antichrist. When the Bible says caught up, it is not referring to miles or light years.

2 Cor 12:1-4 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. :2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Where did the man go in the verse above? Physically he didn't go anywhere. But he had an experience in the realm of the Spirit. God took him in the Spirit to paradise, the third Heaven.

2 Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) :4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The first Heaven brings us to the gate of the Tabernacle of Moses, which brings us to the Brazen Altar. This is symbolic of Calvary.

Eph 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: :4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: The second heaven corresponds to the second realm of the Tabernacle of Moses, the Holy Place or the Sanctuary; wherein dwells the Candlestick, the Golden Altar of Incense, and the Table of Shewbread.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is not speaking of a physical ascent into the sky, but of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which brings us into a supernatural Heaven in Christ.


Paul had already ascended into the first two Heavens through salvation, and through the baptism of the Spirit. Now he is saying that God took him a little further into the realm of life, namely the third Heaven; which is our inheritance in Christ. It was not important to Paul to know if he was in the body when he was taken into that realm.

Fourteen years later he was still suffering afflictions in his mortal body. But he had been to the third Heaven. He knew it existed. And if he had to lay his body down in death, he knew that it eventually would go into that realm of glory.


The obvious answer would be to point over your head into the sky above. But the man in China would say otherwise. To him, up is in the opposite direction. In actuality, there is no such place as up in this universe. The earth is constantly turning, and so is the entire universe. If we all went up physically, in relation to where we were at, the various peoples of the earth would be flying off in different directions.

Once while flying to Nashville, I looked out the window of the plane to see that we were far above the clouds. I had the thought that if those were the clouds Jesus would appear in, I would have to be caught down, which is contrary to what the Bible says.


The Bible never speaks of Jesus' return, to the clouds, or on the clouds, but it does say that He comes in the clouds with power and glory.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Does Heaven have clouds?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Hebrews 12:1 is an interesting verse of scripture.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

It seems to be saying that the heros of faith are a cloud, as in a great multitude.

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Eccl 11:3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be.

A true ministry from God has life to give, and willingly empties itself, to water the true earth, i.e., the Saints of God. Remember, Jesus poured out his life for others.

The Old Testament speaks of a cloud of incense over the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies, and says that is where the Lord will appear.

Leviticus 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.


Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. :10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; :11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Some say He will come out of the sky, and stop on a cloud and meet them there. If you notice the above scripture, He did not start from a cloud and ascend to outer space. He started from their visible presence, and disappeared from view in a cloud, ascending by the means of a cloud into heaven. With Jesus in the cloud, it became the glory cloud. This is the same cloud that was with Israel in the wilderness, a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night; the visible presence of the Lord being with them.

As He went, so shall He come, but in reverse order. Then He will descend back into our visible presence, where we can see and be with Him. Glory to God!


1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We don' meet Him in the sky or in outer space, but in the air. Air is what we breathe. When planes fly above the lower atmosphere they must carry oxygen to breathe, or else everybody dies. The Wuest translation says we will meet Him in the lower atmosphere. But it will be in a much higher spiritual order, for we will be caught up. When this happens, our bodies will also involved in this ascent, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. We are with Him now, in one sense, but we will forever be in the presence of the Lord in a way that we cannot now know.

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

We will still be in our body, but it will be changed. It will be a glorious body.

The sum of what I have written to this point is this: The old Pre-Tribulation rapture theory that originated with Margaret McDonald in 1830, and now held by many Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, and others, has been proven to be false and contrary to scripture. God has promised to deal with those preachers who lull the sheep to sleep with false doctrines.

Eze 13:4-5 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. :5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

God's complaint against these Prophets was that they did not prepare His people for the day that was coming - the Day of the LORD.

Eze 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered mortar:

Edward Irving built the wall on the foundation Margaret Mcdonald laid, while Darby, Larkin, Scofield, Hal Lindsey and others spread the theory to all the Church.

1 Thes 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What will really happen is that Jesus will come back with a sound of a trumpet. Now wherever the Bible speak of a trumpet, it is symbolic of a message going forth from His prophets or ministers. In the Old Testament, trumpets were sounded for each feast day. There was a trumpet, or message, that introduced the feast of Passover, which is a type of Calvary and salvation. Another trumpet sounded for Pentecost. Some heard it, and are now enjoying that feast with the Lord. There is also a trumpet that sounds the restoration of the church, and of His kingdom, that will bring Jesus back to earth.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

And when He comes back, those Saints that come back with Him shall receive their bodies again. Those bodies that were laid down in death, shall be transformed into a glorious likeness to His body of glory. Then those who are still dwelling in these mortal bodies shall be caught up into that same place. The mortal shall put on immortality. Death shall be swallowed up in victory. The Sons of God, that man-child company, shall be caught up unto God, and to His Throne.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The manifestation of the Sons of God takes place.

Rom 8:17-23 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. :18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. :19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. :20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, :21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. :22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. :23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This is when the Jubilee trumpet of Leviticus chapter 25 begins to sound. The Melchizedek Priesthood order passes through the veil into the holy of holies and is with Jesus the high priest forever. Those whom He has made to be kings and priests begin to reign on the earth.

Rev 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, :6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Eph 1:22-23 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, :23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

All enemies will be put under the feet of Jesus by His body the church; the head and body are one. These armies of Heaven will follow Jesus on white horses, destroy Babylon, burn her with fire, and bind Satan with an unbreakable chain. There is even now in the earth priests after the order of Melchizedek; they are the body of Christ.

Heb 2:6-13 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? :7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: :8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. :9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. :10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. :11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is

not ashamed to call them brethren, :12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. :13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Read the book of Hebrews, for it speaks of the more excellent ministry which awaits every son of God. Even now you can enter in where Jesus walked, and begin to believe and walk behind the veil with your Lord.


Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

For the wall to have foundations, it must have a corner stone; and that corner stone is our Lord Jesus Christ.

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Strong's #68: 'eben (eh'-ben); from the root of 1129 through the meaning to build; a stone: KJV-- + carbuncle, + mason, + plummet, [chalk-, hail-, head-, sling-] stone (-ny), (divers) weight (-s). (DIC)

Strong's #1129: banah (baw-naw'); a primitive root; to build (literally and figuratively): KJV-- (begin to) build (-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), X surely.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone; the beginning of the foundation upon which we are built. We are the living or lively stones of the Lord. He was prepared by the Father to be the true foundation for all of us - the church.

Jesus had to learn of his humanity, just like you must learn of yours. He had to learn how to live by a life that was not His own. He had to learn how to live by the Life of the Father that was dwelling in Him.

In the pre-beginning, Jesus was our high priest, as well as being the high priest of God. Let us for a moment look at Melchizedek, to learn about His beginnings and development, and why Jesus was made a Priest after his order. The Priesthood of Melchizedek is a mystery to most of all the church world. The first mention of it is in Genesis 14, in connection with Abraham. Some feel he was Shem, but there is no solid evidence; nor is there any reason to think that our God who chose Abraham had any other man in the earth at the time.

Gen 14:13-24 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. :14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. :5 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. :6 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. :17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. :8 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. :9 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: :20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. :21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. :22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, :23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: :24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Strong's # 4442 Malkiy-Tsedeq (mal-kee-tseh'-dek); from 4428 and 6664; king of right; Malki-Tsedek, an early king in Palestine: KJV-- Melchizedek. (DIC)

Strong's # 6664 tsedeq (tseh'-dek); from 6663; the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: KJV-- X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness). (DIC)

Strong's # 6663 tsadaq (tsaw-dak'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make) right (in a moral or forensic sense): KJV-- cleanse,

clearself, (be, do) just (-ice, -ify, -ifyself), (be turn to) righteous (-ness). (DIC)

Strong's # 4428 melek (meh'-lek); from 4427; a king: KJV-- king, royal. (DIC)

Strong's # 4427 malak (maw-lak'); a primitive root; to reign; inceptively, to ascend the throne; causatively, to induct into royalty; hence (by implication) to take counsel: KJV-- consult, X indeed, be (make, set a, set up) king, be (make) queen, (begin to, make to) reign (-ing), rule, X surely. (DIC)

Strong's # 8004 Shalem (shaw-lame'); the same as 8003; peaceful; Shalem, an early name of Jerusalem: KJV-- Salem. ***. shalom. See 7965. (DIC)


Strong's # 3899 lechem (lekh'-em); from 3898; food (for man or beast), especially bread, or grain (for making it): KJV-- ([shew-]) bread, X eat, food, fruit, loaf, meat, victuals. See also 1036. (DIC)


Strongs# 3196: yayin (yah'-yin); from an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication, intoxication: KJV-- banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber]. (DIC)


Strong's # 3548 kohen (ko-hane'); active participle of 3547; literally, one officiating, a priest; also (by courtesy) an acting priest (although a layman): KJV-- chief ruler, X own, priest, prince, principal officer. (DIC)

Strong's # 3547 kahan (kaw-han'); a primitive root, apparently meaning to mediate in religious services; but used only as denominative from 3548; to officiate as a priest; figuratively, to put on regalia: KJV-- deck, be (do the office of a, execute the, minister in the) priest ('s office). (DIC)

Now let's look at this from outside of time and space, from God's viewpoint; within the fellowship of the Father and Son. From before the beginning of time, it was decided that there would be a creation, so that they could expand and enlarge and become one. When the plan was completed in the Godhead, and creation was to be born; several things were brought forth in those days through the spirit.

There was light.

There was realms - physical - spiritual.

There was a door.

There was angels.

There was a garden, in which both realms existed.

There were trees.

There was a man - in whom were realms.

He was taught only 4 things: eat, rest, rule, be.

Then there was a woman.

There was an adversary.

There were also a lot of other things, but that=s another story.

In God's wisdom and foreplanning, lies the knowledge that his creation must suffer adversity and experience futility of vanity.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

His wondrous plan included a creature, who, from the beginning, was a liar and had limitations placed upon him. This one was, and is, a deceiver. He also had a place in the Garden, and a delegated job to do. This deceiver bewailed the lovely Eve, and by doing so, robbed Adam of his domain, the earth. God put His man out of the Garden, and shut the door. Man had lost the earth, and he was now in sin. God no longer had control of the earth, it now belonged to the deceiver, as did God's man.

Man no longer had a way to God. God no longer had a man, nor a way to fellowship with him. Was it all by the deceivers doing? I think not, it was by divine plan that all happened in this way.

God was now looking for a man who could possess the land, by taking it for God. It took about 2068 years from the day the door was shut, until God saw and called Abram. Our Father saw that Abram would be faithful (he was called the Father of the faithful), and grow into a them. Abram walked after God for about 8 years before the days of the battle for the land; before he met the priest of God. Who else could that be but Jesus?

That meeting was of the utmost importance to our God. Abram had just defeated the heathen kings, bringing restoration and deliverance; a turning point in the plan of creation and history. The fabric of time and space was ripped open as the Father dispatched the Son to the earth to restore Abram with bread and wine. God now had a man that had become a them. He had a battle for a piece of land, and had a winner; His own follower and worshiper, a promise of a seed line, a father in the earth. As Abram was moving down the road, a door opened, and out stepped the King of peace and righteousness and established Himself as such upon the earth. As He nourished Abram with the bread and wine, revealing the principle of the flesh and blood which rebuilt Abram, who in turn, ministered this life to his wife Sarah, who then bore Isaac.

Hundreds of years later God would visit another daughter of Abraham.

Luke 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

The Virgin Mary was instructed by the Angel Gabriel that God desired to take back that flesh and blood (bread and wine), and then have Him wrapped in swaddling cloths and lay Him in a manger.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Heb 2:14-18 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; :15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. :16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. :17 Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. :18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

We find in the Psalms another mention of Melchizedek.

Psalms 110:1-4 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. :2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. :3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. :4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Melchizedek is mentioned only twice in the Old Testament, but mentioned 9 times in the New, mostly in the book of Hebrews.

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

Heb 7:10-11 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him. :11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek:)


It is the more excellent ministry of Jesus Christ our Lord, from outside of time and space, It is from the most holy place after the similitude of Melchizedek. The ?Bible shows us this wonder in 7 places.

1. The High Priestly ministry (Heb 4-10)

2. The King Priest ministry

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

3. The Faithful Priesthood (1 Sam1-4)

4. The Zadok Priesthood (Ezek 44)

5. The Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2)

6. The Priesthood with Urim and Thummin (Ezra 2)

7. The Priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 5-7)

This is a ministry with the following characteristics:

1. Prophet, Priest, and King:

a. God to man.

b. Man to God.

c. Authority.

2. Unlimited:

a. All things will bow to Him - of the Spirit.

3. Endless life:

a. Flows out of His resurrection life.

b. Uncreated and incorruptible.

4. Eternal:

a. Never ends.

b. Always increase in peace and government.

5. Unchangeable:

a. This is the last word on the subject. There will never be another priesthood or higher order.

6. Universal:

a. To all men, with out partiality or prejudice.

7. Flows from praise:

a. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah.

8. Brings Perfection:

a. The law only brought a conclusion.

b. Only the Blood of Jesus can bring us to perfection. He will finish what He has started; a good work, His church.

9. Puts away sin, sickness, poverty, and death:

a. The curse of the law can not stand before him who was made a curse for us.

b. Sin, sickness, property, and death are under the feet of him who hung on the tree - the head of the church.

More marks of this ministry:

1. It is a state of royalty.

2. It is sacred.

3. It is steadfast.

4. It is in the similitude of Jesus.

5. It springs from praise.

6. It is a superior order.

7. It has a single eye.

8. It is separated from sin, sickness, poverty and death.

9. It is a servant to man.

We are to follow the Lamb where He went and where He is. He went as a forerunner before us, behind the veil into the most holy place (the realm of perfection) as a Priest after the Order of Melchizedek. He took us in with Him as a kingdom of kings and priests. We are already there now, and we must learn how to function as His Church. This is not a individual thing.

We as a body, with a head, will be revealed to the world when the Church has learned to take her place with the head; when we have learned to function outside of time and space as one body of kings & priests.

We will look into the Zadok Priesthood from Ezekiel 44, to see if there is a place we can enter into as a body, and please the Lord of glory as we learn to function.

Ezek 44:1-2 :1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. :2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

He will eat bread and drink wine with us in the Kingdom - now!

Matt 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Ezek 44:3-7 :3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same. :4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face. :5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary. :6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, :7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

Are these any different today? Strange concepts to say the least.

Ezek 44:8-31 :8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves. :9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel. :10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity. :11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them. :12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity. :13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed. :14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein. :15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:

Zadok = RIGHTEOUS - separated himself from Saul (the traditions of the older way), from Absalom (personality cults), and Adonijah (Hidden rebellion) - he is the faithful priest of 1 Samuel.

1 Sam 2:35-36 :35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever. :36 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left in thine house shall come and crouch to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and shall say, Put me, I pray thee, into one of the priests' offices, that I may eat a piece of bread.

Ezek 44:16-31 :16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge. :17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within. :18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat. :19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments. :20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.

:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court. :22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before. :23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. :24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my Sabbaths. :25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves. :26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days. :27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD. :28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession. :29 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs. :30 And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house. :31 The priests shall not eat of any thing that is dead of itself, or torn, whether it be fowl or beast.


I thank God for the many fathers in Israel, who have added to me such things as God would have me to know and understand. I would like to give honor to where it is due. Parts of this work came from Bill Britton who is even now with the Lord; Kelly Varner, who is even now present here on earth and one of the God sent bible teachers to the Church; and to Don Sanders, a beloved pastor, who worked with the Lord to raise me up into the Ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ. Also, to the Beloved Saints of His tabernacle (where I pastor) for their never ending support and prayers. Last, but first, I thank the Lord Jesus Christ, who counted me worthy to put me into the ministry, giving to me His precious spirit, and who is my teacher and loving leader.


I will elaborate more completely later, but the gathering of the saints is at the end of the world, after the tribulation.

Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

There is only one resurrection and that is of the just and unjust.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And since the judgment is at the end of the world there is no coming back after Jesus raises all the dead and the dead are judged. We are forever with Him and the ungodly are forever in everlasting fire.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Since we know Jesus is God in the flesh, the Word made flesh, reconciling the world to himself by condemning sin in the flesh and we have the first resurrection when we are born again the second death has no power on us. Everything is being fulfilled in the Word before the Church is gathered. We have power over satan now to bind him and we reign as kings and priests. The kingdom of God was established when Jesus was crucified and was the fulfillment of Daniels prophecy

Dan 2: 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jesus came to set up the kingdom of God, to give power over sin, and He rules though His Church if they are dead to their will.

Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Look at the shadows of the feasts, Passover is the death and blood of Jesus, Pentecost is the firstfruits, TABERNACLES is the gathering of the last harvest. There is nothing to be fulfilled in the Bible after the Church is gathered. The whole purpose of the Church is to be the testimony to Gods power and those hungry will be filled and live above sin and in the joy of the Holy Ghost while the world is tormented and the false prophets being exposed by the two witnesses, the believing Jews and Gentiles.



Wanted to share A FEW more comments on the rapture issue. (I have a lot more!) The question arose as to whether or not the "second coming" had already occurred or not. The scriptures truly state that the Lord has and will come many times and many ways, not just twice, (refer to my earlier letter) and it is important to discern the difference between these "comings" and His FINAL coming,.............. and the rapture.

The following scripture clearly states when that "final" coming will take place..................

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: WHOM THE HEAVENS MUST RECEIVE (RETAIN) UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This clearly tells us that Jesus is retained in heaven (a spiritual realm) until the restitution of all things. If the rapture theory, rapture at any point, is to be believed, then that makes much of the rest of the Word a lie. Let me try and explain........... If Jesus comes and takes the saints out of this world, leaving the sinners, as most teach, or if He takes the sinners out, to eternal torment, and that is the end of the story, then it doesn't make sense! The Word says that He will not come until all things have been restored back to the Father.

If He comes and takes us out, and leaves the sinners, and 7 years of tribulation.......... and the 1000 years......... and all the other scriptures that are misunderstood, then the Word has not been fulfilled. He either leaves a world full of sin, or people burning in hell forever. In either case, it is obvious that all things have not been restored! For when God created the heavens and the earth, it was GOOD. Initially, there was no sin or evil in it. So the restitution or restoration of all things cannot take place, if there is still sin or evil in ANY portion of God's creation. So, what many call the 2nd. coming, the final coming cannot take place until His plan of the ages has been completed.

Paul tells us quite clearly and unmistakably when this will take place, and in fact tells us when God's plan of the ages comes to an end, (the true "end of the book"), and when we will pass into eternity. All of the 15th chapter of I Corinthians is speaking of this, but let's just look at a couple of verses for now. I highly recommend that the entire chapter be read and understood in the spirit of what God shows you, and not what you have been taught, if anything, about this chapter.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. Then [cometh] THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down ALL rule and ALL authority and (ALL) power. For he must reign, till he hath put ALL enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For he hath put ALL things under his feet. But when he saith ALL things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put ALL things under him. And when ALL things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL things under him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

You see, He does not "come" (in the way people use the word "come" when talking about rapture) until the creation has been restored, ALL THINGS have been overcome, including death, and He is ready to deliver the Kingdom to His Father. That in no way corresponds to or even infers a "rapture theory." When He comes, it will be when ALL things have been restored. Look how many times Paul uses ALL in just a couple of verses. I often wonder what people don't understand about all. My 3 year old daughter knows without a hint of doubt what all means. Pay attention to the things that are listed as having been completely restored or overcome (all: rule, authority, power, enemies, death, ALL THINGS). God will be ALL IN ALL. Creation will be perfected. Glory to God!

Now, at the risk of being stoned and called a heretic, I'll add one more comment to show how little of the scripture we truly understand due to poor translations from the original Greek. It comes from this same passage of scripture....................Jesus does NOT rule forever........... I'm sure that raised a few eyebrows. Read it! "For he must reign, TILL he hath put ALL enemies under his feet." Why do we not see that, and why do we insist on teaching something else, something contrary to the Word of God! Jesus does not reign forever. Jesus reigns UNTIL all things have been placed under His feet, then He delivers the kingdom to the Father, and HE (the Father) will be ALL IN ALL. Jesus does not reign "forever." And that is the problem. The word translated "forever," does not mean forever, in fact it means just the opposite. But, I'll save that for another time.

I hope this ministers and touches and brings a spirit witnessed revelation to those who are open to the truth, who learn by the spirit and not the carnal mind. It is a small portion of the truth, which will set you free.

There is absolutely no doubt, Jesus will at some time, truly return, but that is not a rapture, and the rapture is not synonymous with the coming of the Lord.


Gil Diekhoff

On some occasions on my way to work I am able to listen to Jack Hayford's radio program. Last fall he was doing a series on the book of Revelation, that was very fascinating. Since I was able to only to catch only a few of the broadcasts I bought the tapes for the series. The series is called Unlocking the End Book. It consists of 12 tapes. Though I didn't time them I believe two of the tapes are 90 minutes the rest are 60. (By the way his website is at ). The phone number is 818-779-8480.

Hayford gave a fresh new approach to Revelation. I would encourage you to part with the $50+ it costs!! The series even comes with 12 pages of study notes.

It would be crazy to summarize some 13 hours of superb teaching in a sentence or two... But for me the key to the series is the repeated theme of an earthquake which is the beginning of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6:12-17

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wreath of the Lamb! "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Here is a parallel description in Revelation 16:17-21

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "it is done!" And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blaspheme God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

Now compare these passages to Matthew 24:29

Immediately after those horrible days end, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

Then in verses 30-31 that follow Jesus describes his second coming.

I Thessalonians 5:1-11 indicates we are not appointed to wrath.. but these passages refer to God's wrath being poured out on earth. Clearly this earthquake is no normal seismic event. It is a global cataclysm, the result of "stars falling to earth" or "great hail from heaven." Basically a meteor or asteroid or comet striking the earth.

Professionally I am a geologist, and I assure you I don't have everything figured out in regard to earth history and how it fits together with the Bible. But I Love Jesus and am filled with his Spirit. One of the most exciting discoveries over the last 15 years has been watching science in action in regard to the discovery of the meteorite imbedded in the earth in the Yucatan Peninsula and the linking of that event with massive worldwide extinctions. I have followed this fairly closely from the beginning. But won't discuss any more here unless any one asks. The other thing we all watched with awe and a bit of apprehension was the Shumaker-Levy Comet that broke apart and slammed into Jupiter. Some geologist have interpreted a series of aligned craters in Canada as a similar strike.

Hayford's conclusion is that the rapture occurs simultaneous with the striking of the earth by some, shall I say, extraterestrial body.. which initiates the "wrath of God." It won't be like the Larry Norman song "I wish we'd all been ready" or the new "Left Behind" book series. When the earth is a smoldering ruin, and the sky is darkened as in a "nuclear winter" and people are struggling just to exist, who will notice or even care if a few hindered million Christians are missing in action.

In the Service of the King

Larry M. Vredenburgh

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