Rapture Discussion
Hi all,
Well we are getting more agreement against a pre-trib rapture than I
thought we would. It is not scriptural and it is not in the prophetic.
Not much more said about whether all Christians are saints or not so I
thought I would offer a word. Please understand that I do not have all
the answers on this subject to speak as an authority. Sanctification
suggests the idea of separation. In the broad sense of the word, we are
all saints or holy ones because we are separated from non-Christians in
that we are saved. One issue that we briefly discussed was on the
several resurrections. The Bible teaches that the we (the saints) will
not all sleep but be translated in a twinkling of an eye at the last
trump. I Cor. 15:52. Most of us think that our loved ones that died in
the Lord are in heaven now. They are not awaiting judgment but are in
eternity. I believe that too but I also believe in a future resurrection
that will be in judgment. Now if those that having accepted Christ are
not judged and those that have not rejected the Lord are judged already,
then where lies the judgment. I am admitting my confusion on this unless
I understand that there are differing degrees of ones walk with the Lord
and that many will be numbered with the transgressors and will not be
raised to judgment until the future.
Now I understand that those raised in the twinkling of an eye are at the
last trump but God reckons time differently in eternity than we do.
There is no past or future in heaven, only the eternal now. There is a
kingdom in heaven (the eternal now) and a kingdom to come on earth in
the future. There is a clear separation here. If there is a rapture, it
will be only the saints that will be raptured and I do not believe all
Christians are saints and I believe that those on earth during the
millennium will be waiting for even another judgment while the saints
are in heaven. Again, I am admitting ignorance.
Those that responded pretty much feel that there will not be a pre-trib
rapture and agree that it is a dangerous error that is giving the church
a false sense of security and putting them into an escapist position
where they need not be concerned with the harvest and sifting to come. I
have had to edit out some of these which were too long. Jesse Sellers
asks some good questions that we might want to address as a group. A few
of these questions I have also addressed in something that I have been
working on the last few days about the two witnesses. Find that at
http://latter-rain.com/eschae/twowit.htm. As far as satanic lies, Jesus
is truth and any lie is from satan, that does not mean the person that
speaks an error is from satan. I also once taught a pre-trib rapture
that came from a lie, there must be many lies that I still hold to that
I must humble myself, identify them, overcome and come to truth. Also
there is a longer essay from someone that Gil submitted which has some
very excellent points concerning the rapture that we might look at. It
also comes with an a-millennial position that I just cannot accept which
believes that the second coming occurred at Pentecost. I believe that
there will come a time where the Lion will lay down with the Lamb, Jesus
will rule over the nations and there will be a thousand year period
which is the Sabbath rest of man.
Jay
When I received this particular letter
it stirred something in me because I too had a hard time coming to this
conclusion. Most Christians are being taught about the rapture and I
believed in it too. Until one day when I truly wanted the truth and
asked the Lord to lead me and what he showed (lack of better words)
scared me. For all those who are being taught about a rapture will be
left confused and what I fear most is there faith will fall because of
what they expect to happen won't.
Now there was a particular scripture that Jay pointed out. It is one
that many use and I was left always in a battle to what it meant,
because so many times in scripture it talks about the saints suffering
persecution and how is this possible if there is a rapture. The
scripture that I am talking about it the one in Matthew 24:37 - 41 now
I think Jay mentioned the one in 41 or at least one like it. Where two
will be in field one will be taken and the other left. What I don't
understand how there is so much confusion because the scripture before
tells you what he is talking about and no one brings that scripture in
and it is very important. It says -
Starting in
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son
of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and
drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe
entered into the ark.
39 And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK them all AWAY: so shall
also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field: the one shall be taken, and the
other
left.
Now my point is that it wasn't Noe and his family that was taken away.
They were protected by God just like we will be if we believe. But the
ones that were taken away were the people left. This was a very strong
message to me and I hope that it will bless all of you that read it.
I feel very strongly that people need to be reached. I personally had
a
hard time with this because such the opposite is being preached I felt
like a heretic.
So if anything I am truly thankful I am not alone.
May God bless you and keep you.
Thank you.
Okay. A few questions to stimulate some thought, prayer, and
discussion.
You say that any pastor that teaches a pre-trib rapture is teaching a
"lie
of Satan." Do you, therefore, believe that any pastor who honestly
misunderstands the teaching of scripture in some area is teaching
Satanic
lies? Suppose you yourself have made an error in your teaching. You
confess
to having once believed (and therefore, one can presume, taught) a
pre-tribulational rapture. Were you teaching a lie of Satan?
Second issue. Your contention that "not all Christians are saints."
The
greek word for saint is hagios, and it means holy ones. Let me call
your
attention to Paul's letter to the Corinthians. Here was a church in
which
members were engaged in all sorts of heinous sins, even incest. Yet
Paul, in
his salutation, does not refer to them as "sinners." He calls them
saints,
"holy ones." It would be better, and more accurate, to contend that not
all
professing Christians are possessing Christians, but the word "saint"
by
definition has to refer to a holy one; i.e., a true Christian.
Third item: You state that the Bride needs to be readied before the
Judgment seat of Christ. The Bride has been made ready by the atoning
work
of Christ at the cross. To attempt to add anything else to that is to
advocate a salvation by works.
Here's a thought to consider regarding a pre-trib rapture. At the end
of
Revelation 3, after the letter to the 7 churches (which, among other
things,
represent 7 distinct periods in church history), the church is no more
in
the world. The very next verse (remembering there were no chapter and
verse
divisions in the original Greek)speaks of a door being open in heaven.
The
open door can be interpreted as implying the rapture.
One final point: I think one of your respondents says the church in
Sardis
can be considered to be dead in Christ. There is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE
to
any person redeemed by the blood of Jesus as being in any spiritual
sense
dead. The reference to the dead in Christ rising first has to mean
those who
have died physically.
Yours in His service,
Hi Jay
Well regarding the rapture question. I have spent a
lot of time in the United States and realize that the
pre trib position on this is very strong. I cannot
speak for all Englishmen, but my own experience is
that that doctrine is not nearly as strong outside of
the USA. I think that needs to be kept in mind to
provide some balance. Personally whilst I know of
some, I don not personally know (over here) as far as
I am aware any Christian who holds to the
dispensational scheme, despite the fact that it
started here with John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth
Brethren.. I would have to agree with you Jay that
the secret 'pre trib' rapture is a delusion of Satan
sent to give false hope to an already lukewarm and
apostate church. Coupled with the 'easy believism' of
apostate American fundamentalists and British brethren,
it has sent many into delusion, presumption and
false comfort. It truly is the doctrine of the foolish
virgins. It is contrary to the clear teaching of
scripture and of every minister and teacher sent from
God from the church fathers onwards. It was unknown
before the 19th century and not popularized in the
United States until the early 20th century. Paul the
apostle is clear that the day of Jesus' second coming
will be marked by the angels pouring out judgements on
the ungodly, and he plainly told Christians to look
for that day, and further told them that that day (of
his coming and out gathering together to meet him)
will not come until the man of sin is revealed first.
See 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 and 2. There is only
one second coming and one last trumpet. People are not
going to find copies of 'left behind' during the
tribulation and get a second chance. Once the door is
closed it is closed. Wrath and tribulation are not the
same, and the fact is while we have not been appointed
to wrath, we have been appointed to tribulation as the
bible clearly says. We will meet the Lord in the air
when he visibly returns. Well I could go on but I
think you get my point. Take care
Dean
The question in this hour is not of if there will be a rapture, but
when
there will be a rapture.
As some unlearned people might not know the word rapture doesn't even
appear
in the bible, yet they have placed a whole doctrine on this one thing.
I also was raised in a church that preached that Jesus could return at
any
minute and just as Jay stated it was because I was embracing the
traditional teachings of the church and not the word of God. I thank
God
that I am not under that type of ministry any more. The church going
through the Tribulation is a very important doctrine and it will cause
many
to go to hell with the blasphemous mockings.
Now the scriptures:
Matthew 24:3-5
Matthew 24:29-30
Matthew 24:36-37
This is showing you that noe knew about the flood before it happened.
People have quoted the scripture no man knows the day or the hour for
years not knowing what the scripture was really saying. If you have
Jesus
Christ living in side of you the father is also inside of you because:
John 10:30
He is only going to come as thief upon those that aren't awaiting his
return.
If you are being taught that he is coming back and that you can't know
these things it is a lie straight from the pits of hell.
He is coming back after the tribulation just like he said. Not a moment
before and not a moment after.
srt
This next is an excerpt of a prophetic mailing from Doug Fortune, the
day after I mailed out the rapture question. It had to do with the same
issue, so is included....Jay.
Consider the PROCESS as each gift equips the saints ... apostles
imparting a 'sent one' mentality, prophets imparting vision and
revelatory awareness,
evangelists imparting the ability to draw people to Him, pastors
imparting a
caring and concern for others, and teachers imparting true knowledge...
all this
contained within the PURPOSE of being conformed to the image of Christ
and manifesting
Him in the earth. PURPOSE determines our PROCESS... in other words, if I
believe
my PURPOSE is to just "hang on till Jesus comes back, get a few people
to heaven,
and hope for a rapture that I may
escape this world", then my PROCESS will be very self-serving and
limited. If
I believe that my PURPOSE is to manifest Christ by being conformed to
His likeness
and advance the Kingdom having dominion in the earth, then my PROCESS
will be
a reflection of that PURPOSE.
Jay, you might like this conference--I'm going to try to make it to it
by the 11th and 12th. I think you are right about the rapture--the
pastor that is putting this on used to teach the pretrib and now finds
it in error. I don't think this is one we should divide on, yet I know
some places teach it as heresy to be anything but pre-trib..I know at
my former church the first time it came out of the pulpit as
the-way-it-was-going-to-happen, I knew something was wrong. When I
talked to my Pastor about it he simply said "I base my pre-trib theology
out of a book that is this thick (then he held his hands out about six
inches apart) written by a guy from Dallas Theological Seminary and it
is complicated." So that's all I really ever got about why it was so,
and Matthew Chapter 24 written by our Lord, it was simply saying
something entirely different. Dunno. Though, in my heart I know the
pre-trib notion to be wrong--and even dangerous. I don't want to pick up
rocks about it. Marv Rosenthal has an in-depth teaching about why the
pretrib is wrong. There is so much that seems to be like this the
old/young earth controversy. I just heard on the radio John MacArthur
consign me and those like me that believe in an old earth to the curses
of Revelation for believing as I do. God is my Lord and my God, He has
promised to never leave me (and He never has)--when we take on these
controversial issues and I believe we should and then stand up to our
brothers and sisters in the Lord and tell them what we truly believe
from the standpoint of what the Lord has shown us an then we are told
that we are believing in another Jesus because we don't walk and talk
the party line of mainstream evangelical Christianity well it is not
worth getting shot at unless the holy Spirit is directing us to stand
and
give the truth. I've moved over here to eastern Oregon and haven't begun
to look for a church because I don't want to go through this again. in
Him jk
http://www.cornerstonegp.com/conference.html
Dear Jay,
Like you, I also believe that the pre-trib rapture view is dangerous.
You have chosen a difficult subject, but if we will not make it more
complicated than it is we can reach a consensus. We could be discussing
this for weeks!
Jesus made it clear in Matthew 24 that the elect would be gathered
together unto Him "immediately after the tribulation of those days." 2
Thess. 2: 1-4 also reveals that "the coming of the Lord and our
gathering together unto Him" (also referred to as "that day" two verses
later)
would not happen until a great falling away and the man of sin is
revealed. There are those who teach that "that day" is the Second
Coming
and not the Rapture. If you interpret it in its context it is plain to
see that Paul was referring back to "the coming of the Lord and our
gathering
together unto Him" when he spoke of "that Day". The book of Daniel and
Revelation together indicate that there will be a time when the
antichrist makes war against, persecutes, prevails against or wears out
the saints (Daniel 7: 25; Revelation 13: 7). One can conclude from
this that we will still be on earth when the antichrist is revealed and
for some time afterward, and that the Second Coming and the Rapture are
the same.
Concerning pinpointing when the rapture will take place (pre, mid, or
post) note the following: "Immediately after the tribulation of those
days
shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the
stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken, and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son
of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and with great glory"
(Matthew 24: 29, 30; See rest of chapter ). This passage corresponds
with Revelation 6: 12-15: "And I beheld when He had opened the sixth
seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven
fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when
she is shaken by a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll
when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out
of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the
rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every
bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks
of the mountains."
These events are to happen immediately after "the tribulation of those
days." In Revelation 7: 9, 13, 14 John saw great multitude in Heaven
who were identified as being those who came out of great tribulation.
It would appear that in Revelation 6, sometime after the sixth seal is
opened, the Church is in Heaven (literally). One could safely conclude
that we ( the Church) will see the sun darkened, and the moon not give
her light, and the stars fall from heaven, and people frantically trying
to save their lives, etc. After this point, when the Lord comes, we
will be
changed in the twinkling of an eye. I would call it a pre-wrath rapture
of the Church. Well, that's enough for now.
Blessings,
Gary P.
Jay,
The rapture doctrine is certainly one that will raise some discussion. I
could write a book about what the Lord has revealed to me on this
subject in the last 3 years. I will share some basic thoughts with you
and the group. (you may want to forward it to the group as an
attachment) All I ask is that everyone reading them, pray over them and
ask the Lord to teach you as individuals, His truth. It is very
important I think, to learn in your heart and not your head. That is
exactly what we must get away from, our carnal minds! Let the Lord
minister to your heart, your spirit, and your eyes and ears will open to
the Truth of the Word. You will see the doctrines of men for what they
are; lies, deceit, and twisting of the scriptures, taking them out of
context, etc., for the purpose of controlling the people. God wants to
bring FREEDOM to His people, not bondage!
You state that we should take a scriptural look at it, and that is
indeed the case. We must look also at the true meaning of scriptures as
written in the original languages, Greek and Hebrew, as most of the
"translations" have glaring faults in them. We should dig into it the
way the Bereans did.
Anyway, I have included what appears to be a lot of material, and I
don't take credit for writing much of it myself. The majority of it has
come from several other sources, which makes it easy to cut and paste.
Why reinvent the wheel? But this really just scratches the surface of
the truth, so if anyone who reads this has questions, please let me know
and I will be happy to share with them.
In God's Grace
Gil
Rapture is a theological term used by many evangelical Christians who
believe that they will be taken out of the earth before the second
coming of Christ. The basis for this is out of the Gospels where one is
taken and one is left as in the Days of Noah. It is important to note
that the word rapture is not found here, or any where else in the
Scriptures. The early church fathers NEVER preached rapture, which is
different from the Second Coming of the Lord.
The evangelical churches that believe in rapture teach the saint leaves
the earth. But the proof is that Noah remained and the wicked were
removed. John 17:15 states: "I pray NOT that you (disciples) should be
taken out of the world, but that you (Father) should keep them from
evil." Or consider Matthew 5 which states: "the meek shall inherit THE
EARTH," or even the Lord's Prayer which states in Matthew 6: "YOUR
KINGDOM COME and your will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN." There
are many more verses that show the saints remain, even if there is a
tribulation.
There are several schools of thought concerning the book of Revelation.
The historical school shows how the book of Revelation is and was
completed many years ago.
The futuristic school looks for a physical antichrist, one man, a seven
or at least a three and one-half year tribulation and a millennial reign
of Christ. These concepts all came out of the works of Jesuits who wrote
to confound and redirect Protestant ire. I won't discuss that here, but
it is interesting to note that John states that the antichrist was
already there in the first century!
The historical theological viewpoint is that the book of Revelation is
spiritual and not literal since the actual literal fulfillment has
already occurred. Secondly, the historical generally expresses the point
that the numbers found in the book of Revelation and other places are
allegorical or symbolical and are not for literal interpretation. The
futuristic school would contend this is otherwise.
While some of the futuristic school would indicate that 1 Thessalonians
4:15-20 shows a rapture as was taught by Paul, this verse has to do with
Christ's second coming and not a secret rapture.
The man of sin in 2 Thessalonians is not a literal man who will appear.
The word "temple" is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 3:16, where it
states that your body is the "temple" of the Holy Spirit. The word in
the Greek is "naos." The word in the Greek used for a physical structure
such as a building is the word "heiron." The difference between these
two is important.
Paul is not writing about some literal man of sin who will appear or had
appeared. Paul is writing a spiritual word. The man of sin is located in
a person - each of us individually. We are the Lord's temple. Within us
is the fallen adamic nature, it is dead (Romans 6:1-10),
The man of sin is not some literal person who leads us away like a Pied
Piper, but the man of sin is the lustful carnal mind, the adamic man,
who is at enmity with God. The man of sin is the fallen nature within
the person.
We do not have to look very far to find the man of sin. But it is far
easier to call someone else the man of sin because then you or I do not
have to deal with the man of sin within ourselves. Religion keeps the
person from dealing with the real problem - self. Religion offers
solutions that make the adamic man feel good - do good things, so many
Hail Mary's, evangelism outreach, speaking in tongues, etc.
Christianity, true Christianity, deals with the removal of the man of
sin in the person by identification with Christ and making God the God
of the temple of God.
Many, many churches, teach Passover (salvation), fewer teach Pentecost
(baptism of the Spirit). They do not however, teach the feast of
Tabernacles which is the third feast that is experiential. If they did,
they would not preach the doctrine of rapture. Before one can experience
the third feast, certain doctrines, which are not true, have to be
removed from the nature of the person. One of these is rapture. Let's
look at the scriptures.
"But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man
be. ... and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so
also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the
field: one will be taken and one will be left." Matthew 24:37, 39, 40
see also Luke 17:26-37
The rapture teaches that the saint is removed from the earth and is
protected in a literal heaven, not in the physical sky (heavens). But in
the days of Noah, we find that the Unrighteous were removed or "taken."
Noah was protected but REMAINED on the earth. The Noahic story is
supported in other Scriptures also. 1 Corinthians 6:9 states: "Know ye
not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God?" God
always removes the unrighteous.
In Matthew 13: 24-30 we find the parable of the wheat and the tares.
Theologians agree that the wheat represent the saints and the tares the
unsaved. Who is removed in the parable? The unrighteous, the tares are
removed. The wheat remains. Scripture consistently reveals that the
righteous remain and the unrighteous, the tares are removed. Look at the
words of Jesus Himself as the ultimate authority. See what He prayed to
the Father in John 17:15.
Our purpose is not to be taken out but to be victorious in the
trial.
The three men in the fiery furnace went through the fire not tainted of
smoke. Noah went through the flood untouched by the waters. Consider the
Scripture found in Revelation 21:7 which reads:" He that overcomes shall
inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." One
does not overcome by escaping!
It is important to note that the Lord appeared in judgment in Noah's
day. He Himself did not appear, but rather was manifested in judgment.
Keep this thought in mind as you begin to see how Matthew 24 has already
been fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Lord appeared in judgment to "that
generation." Some would say that this chapter relates to the "end-time"
and must assuredly speak to us this day. Let me address that question.
As mentioned before there are many comings of the Lord and different
words are used. The Greek word "coming" in the KJV in Matthew 24:37 is
"parousia." This means that the Lord is near to, co-existent with, or
presence is felt.
Consider these interesting facts. First, Matthew 24 was written to the
generation of Jesus' day. In verse 34 Jesus mentions "this generation
will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.." He
speaks of the generation of Jews that condemned Him to death and
rejected the Father, the Son and the testimony of the Holy Spirit in
Stephen. Having rejected the Godhead's manifestation, they had
blasphemed the Holy Spirit and their salvation was cut off for an age
(Matthew 12:31-32).
Even more so we should consider Jesus. He is our pattern to follow.
Peter writes in 1Peter 2:21 "To this you were called, because Christ
also suffered for us, leaving us
an example, that you should follow in His steps." Jesus never escaped
anything. The walk of faith cost Him His life. Our walk too is not to
escape trials and tribulations, but rather to be an example of an
overcoming life through the blood of Christ. Then Peter himself
proclaims in Acts 2, that the "last days" were taking place at that
time! ("But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it
shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my
Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream
dreams:")
What about I Thessalonians 4:15-17? I do not consider these rapture
verses but truly a second coming verse. Nowhere do you find anyone going
to heaven. The Greek word "apantesis" is translated "to meet." In
ancient times it was a word used in conjunction with a party of people
who go out and meet an important person. Today it would be used as if
you went to the airport to meet a person and bring him back to your
house. This verb implies the saints meeting Christ and escorting Him
back to the earth to set up His kingdom.
There are three other locations in Scripture that use this word "meet,"
and each time the word is used to greet and return. Matthew 25:1,6
speaks of the ten virgins who went forth to "meet" the bridegroom and
return to the party. John 12:13 speaks of Jesus entering Jerusalem where
people "took branches of palm trees and went forth to meet Him." Then in
Acts 28:15 Paul writes "they came to meet us as far as Appii forum..."
Saints came and led him back into the city (about 43 miles). The
information on "meet" has been supplied by Stephen Jones', The Rapture
of the Wicked.
It is easy to understand when we say Adam fell or the Fall of Adam that
we do not mean he literally fell out of a tree or he literally fell off
a building. The fall spoken of here is spiritual, not literal. So it is
with the famous "catching up" verse. The catching up is not a literal
but a spiritual catching up, even as Adam's fall was a spiritual fall
not a literal fall.
The word "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4 is the Greek word
"harpazo"
which means "seize" or "to take to oneself." 2 Corinthians 12:2-3 Paul
writes about being caught up (Greek=harpazo). He clearly mentions that
it was a SPIRITUAL experience. He did not know whether it was in or out
of the body - BUT THE BODY REMAINED WHERE IT WAS! The catching up WAS
NOT LITERAL. Matthew 11:12 and 13:19 both use harpazo to mean that there
was a SPIRITUAL action where the kingdom was "taken by force." This is
not a literal action because the word of God, which is "taken away" out
of a person's heart, is also spiritual. Twelve out of 13 times (harpazo
is used 13 times in the New Testament) harpazo means a spiritual event.
Only one time was it used with Philip and then he was transported to
another location, not translated or removed from the earth.
Another question is when will Jesus come? A better way to phrase
that
is when did He come, if you understand the Greek……… When did Jesus come?
At Pentecost. The Greek word for spirit is "pneuma." It is the same word
that is used in the book of Acts used as "wind." Jesus came and
empowered the disciples. But He did more than that. Just as salvation
(the feast of Passover, 1 Corinthians 5:8) is experiential, so also is
Pentecost. These men had placed within their own vessel the "presence"
or the "coming" of the Lord. (see the Greek word parousia)
His coming is in His saints. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that He
will
be glorified "IN His saints." John 14:20 states that He is IN us. That
is how He is glorified -by His "coming," His "presence" in us. There is
no doubt of this for Revelation 21:3 states that "...the tabernacle of
God is with men and He shall dwell (Greek: be at home, reside in,) with
them."
Because of traditional religious teaching which emphasizes external
concepts of Christianity, many Christians have not appropriated the
truth of Him who lives within. Thus, they have difficulty with
delineation of the truths found in the scriptures. As an example, most
saints mix up "IN His saints" and "WITH His saints" as being synonymous
and both dealing with a "second" coming. Nothing could be further from
the truth.
Perhaps to radically portray the coming of Christ, we should consider
some verses, which show a coming of Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4 reveals
Christ coming as a "shout." Jude 14 He comes with His saints. 1
Thessalonians 1:10 He comes in His saints. Matthew 16:27 states He comes
with angels. Have you considered His coming as the Morning Star arising
in your heart (1 Peter)? In Revelation He comes as the white horse.
Matthew has the Son of Man appearing as lightning. THE COMINGS OF THE
LORD ARE THE MANIFESTATIONS OF HIS PRESENCE - whether it be the
whirlwind that Elijah saw, the donkey that Balaam heard speak or the
angels that visited Abraham. I don't have time to discuss it here, but
it would be very beneficial to study the Greek words apocalypse,
phaneroo and epiphany. These all talk about manifestations of the Lord.
In nearly every translation they are translated incorrectly or give a
different meaning/impression than that of the original Greek text.
Parousia, means the presence. You have experienced that in your walk
with God when you know He is with you. The apocalypse (revelation) is
the unveiling to you that He has come within you, much to your surprise
and chagrin at times. Then there is the phaneroo (to manifest or make
known) or the ability for others to see Christ as you which many times
leads the person unto salvation, a personal encounter with God. But the
epiphany ('glorious appearing) is the out-raying of the Lord, even as He
was transfigured before the disciples.
Now, in reference to the word "clouds" which is used in first
Thessalonians 4:17 there is some important information. Let me first
quote Jude 12: "These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast
with you without fear, serving only themselves; they are clouds without
water..." This is the same (Greek) word used in Thessalonians. Jude
refers to PEOPLE as clouds!
Hebrews 12:1 states we are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.." This
word "witnesses" in the Greek means: martyr, record, witness. The
witnesses are people. Thus, when Paul is referring to "the cloud of
witnesses," he is talking about people. The word "cloud" within the
context of Thessalonians has a spiritual meaning.
The descent of the Lord in Jesus came when on the mount, His inner
nature was expressed through his outer appearance. He descended from the
realm He was living in, a spiritual place, and manifested the life of
the eternal on the outer man. The descent of the Lord will be from your
spiritual place, heaven, which is in you and will be made manifest out
of you.
The descent of the Lord is from heaven, and the New Jerusalem comes down
from heaven (Revelation 21:11). But this verse clearly states that the
New Jerusalem is the bride, the wife of God (Revelation 21:9). It is not
a literal city. It is a spiritual realm.
This is the truth of being spiritually "caught up" while still walking
physically on the earth. The rapture is not a literal, physical catching
away but an experience that is internal. Just as Paul's was. It is a
place, a realm, in which the person dwells.
The catching up is a return to the spiritual place and relationship that
Adam had before the fall. He fell from the location, not literally but
spiritually. He lost the relationship with the Lord. Jesus broke down
the partition so that we might again have access to the Father. We are
ascending in Him. The third experience which follows Pentecost and
Passover provides the means to live above the battles on the earth.
Christ in you is your deliverance. Not just having Him within in the
Passover experience nor in the Pentecostal but in the Tabernacles
experience. Many evangelicals will speak of the "saving" experience.
Some will speak of the "baptism of the Spirit" (speaking in tongues
etc). You must have the two experiences to experience the third. This is
the catching up - 2 Corinthians 12:2.
Jesus stated that the kingdom of God is within (Luke 17:21). He also
called Peter "Satan" at one time, meaning that the kingdom of the world
is found within also Spirituality causes truth to be seen in the natural
and by that is meant within the individual person. The man of sin is
found within. The man of God is manifested from within the vessel even
as the Father was manifested through Jesus at the Mount of
Transfiguration. Both the historical and futuristic schools of theology
are failures. Each lacks discernment of the real truth. They fail
because the individual is not held accountable and natural
interpretations are given to spiritual truths.
The real truth lies within the individual. As long as theology is
externalized, the accountability of the individual is absent. As long as
theology points to someone else's actions rather than the individual's
actions, it fails to hold the individual accountable. Corruption in the
world is a horrible thing. Corruption in government comes from
corruption in the people, and corruption in the people comes from
corruption in the family, and corruption in the family comes from
corruption in the parents, and corruption in the parents comes from a
corrupt man or woman - individual responsibility.
Depending on your point of view, the Second Coming has already
occurred
(historical theology) or is to occur (futuristic theology). The man of
sin has already come (historical school) or is to come (futuristic
school). Some say there is no rapture (historical school) others believe
there is a secret rapture (futuristic school).
The failure of both schools is that the Christian becomes so caught up
in the leaving of this literal earth that living the crucified life here
is not done. By crucified life I do not mean physical hardships, mental
duress etc. I do mean the removal of the man of sin in oneself and the
revelation of the Son. That is true evangelism. People came to Jesus
because He revealed what they longed for and did not have.
Dealing with Revelation 1:1 first, we see that the whole book of
Revelation is actually a revelation of the Lord - not a revelation of
the antichrist, the dragon etc. Yet, these things are mentioned along
with the lake of fire, manchild etc. If all those "evil" things are part
of the revelation of the Lord, how could it be so? As the Lord ascends
in a people, His saints, He causes all the corruption in them to come
forth and be dealt with. Every facet of your life that is not in
alignment with the Lord's nature will be dealt with. As each facet of
your carnal nature is revealed - whether it be religious, carnal or
fleshly lusts - the Lord in you removes it. He comes. This is His coming
IN a body (see 2 Thess.. 1:10) and He becomes greater and greater in
you.
The world groans for the manifestation of the sons of God - Romans 8:19.
These are those who have been conformed to His image, living epistles,
handwritten by the Holy Spirit. These are those who have gone deeper
than the experience of salvation/Passover. These are those who have gone
yet deeper than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit/Pentecost. They have
entered into the ingathering/Tabernacles. Their identity is hid with God
(Galatians 2:20). They have slain the dragon. He no longer resides in
their heavens. He has been cast down. The man of sin has been removed
because they have made their eye one. A double minded man (carnal and
spiritual) is unstable in all his ways (James 1:8). Their mind is one,
their eye is clear for they realize that the work of God in them has
caused them to be in His image.
The catching up to be with the Lord is a spiritual experience
that
can occur during the lifetime of the individual. True, Paul and the
others were writing about literal things which would occur. But more
than that Paul was writing a spiritual word. A literal interpretation, a
natural fulfillment was not what Paul was concerned about. This was his
concern: "My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until
Christ is formed in you." Galatians 4:18 The concern of this ministry is that religion has caused division among
the saints based upon dogma that has nothing to do with the Christian
life. When the real focus should be found in the development of the
nature of our Lord within the person. At least the historical school
considers things "done" and then allows the saint to focus on developing
his/her personal walk and revelation of the Lord within. The futuristic
school is an escape mentality that puts off until the future the full
development of the revelation of the Lord in a person!
God speaks daily to those who hear. God is raising up some "sons"
(little "s") of God. These are people who are willing to remove their
false theologies, their idols, precluded ideas, to worship the unknown
God (Acts 17:23) - the god the religious man does not know.
There will not be a "rapture." As one comes into a revelation of
the
Father's heart,(through the study of the Word, prayer, the prophetic,
etc.,) and starts to see the very beginning of the plans He has for His
creation, this will begin to become evident.
Blessings.
February 7, 2000
Alisa Youngren
Dr. Jesse W. Sellers
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him
privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall
be
the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 ? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man
deceive
you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall
deceive
many.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
fall
from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then
shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of
man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of
heaven,
but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of
man
be.
Genesis 7:4
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty
days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will
I
destroy from off the face of the earth.
I and my Father are one.
John 12:45
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast,
and
repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a
thief,
and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
These verses are often used to teach the rapture. There are five
premises in these Scriptures. (1) The flood came as a surprise to the
unsaved. (2) The righteous were prepared. (3) The flood destroyed the
wicked. (4) The saints were protected. (5) The saints inherited the
earth. Theologians agree on points 1-4, but theologians forget that Noah
never left the earth, but rather inherited the earth.Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
Issue Oriented Discussion Newsletter
Index | Search This Site | Aristide.Org | The Latter Rain | Babylon the Great | The Kingdom | The Nicolaitans | Jezebel
The Baptism With the Holy Ghost | The Grand Delusion | World Trade Org | Liberation Theology | Jay Atkinson | Alphabetical Index