The Experiential

August 31, 2001

There will be many on the issue of eternal security that will bring up the verse in Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." You know this is a great verse with a great truth but have you ever heard anyone quote this verse out of context to prove their point without the second part: "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"? I have, many times. Paul teaches a lot in that eighth chapter about walking in the spirit, the flesh being opposed to the spirit, the carnal mind contrasting with life and peace. We need to understand that without the spirit, there is no life, no matter how saved you think you are. If it does not conform to the spirit of God working within you, your salvation is only a delusion. It is Christ in you that is the hope of glory and it is the power of an endless life working within your being.

Paul goes on to say and I believe that this is the central point of the whole chapter that

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...
Now the question is, have you received that spirit? If so, you are led by that spirit and God's spirit has born witness with your spirit - that is experiential. Those that deny this truth will say that we are speaking of emotionalism. Listen, hope is an emotion and Paul says that we are saved by hope. Love is an emotion and the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit. Those that cannot point to an experiential time in their life when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost will deny the experience altogether and think that the legal aspects of our positional relationship to Christ is enough to save you. That may be true but how does a person know that they are indeed in that position without the witness of the spirit? Our position in Christ is essential to walking in the spirit but it is not enough to say that you are saved and have accepted Him as savior in your life, He must be Lord and that is by walking in His spirit. It all relates to Jesus going to the cross to give us life and reconcile us to the Father through faith but He is the door to that eternal life and it is up to us to open that door in order to accept the free gift. The door is our heart, He is knocking and asking to come in and be a part of our lives. He says that it is up to us to enter in and He says that we will see Him. You cannot choose life if you believe that it has already been chosen for you, it takes an initial effort to receive.

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
Water baptism is an outward action that represents our inward repentance. It is the spirit that washes us clean as a result of our commitment, not the water. Baptism saves you in that we are obedient to the mandate, without that obedience, we have not proven our faith. When I was baptized with the Holy Ghost, it was a profound spiritual immersion, which is experiential for sure and gives me the confidence that I will see eternal life according to the high calling. I believe that I am saved, past tense, present tense and future tense but I have that experiential proof from God that gives me a tremendous hope. That may be proof only for myself but God knows our hearts. We need God to reveal these things to us but the devil is right there trying to deceive us also, so we must make perfectly sure.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Philippians 3:15.

It is truly sad that so many pastors and Christian teachers have pronounced people saved without the assurance of faith through the witness of the spirit. Faith is that assurance, not the pronouncement of it for it is the just that lives by faith, not merely living in faith. It is active faith, not passive faith, and the kind of faith that proves itself through the fruits of the spirit. It does not even have to be that much, it can be little faith as well as much faith, the difference is whether it is true faith in the true God of love and whether Jesus is Lord, or if it is in pride and we lord over others. One leads to life and the other to eternal humiliation. Think of all the Christians that want to lord it over the flock because of their positional authority and you will see what I mean. Paul teaches in Romans 4 that imputed righteousness comes through faith and grace. Not just simple faith in Jesus in order to take out a fire insurance policy or kissing up to God like a rich uncle in hopes of an inheritance. You tell me what salvation exists where righteousness has never been imputed and the spirit has never borne witness. Jesus died for us all and the justification is offered to all. God is unwilling that anyone should perish, contrary to what the Mormons and Calvinists teach but justification is only granted to those who accept it through faith. This faith is what makes our election sure but again - WHAT KIND OF FAITH? The faith that negates God's promises of eternal life? The faith that Lords it over others in the flock? The kind of faith that trusts in one's own salvation and does nothing for the kingdom? The faith that cannot prove itself in love? The faith that does not bear witness to God's spirit? No joy or holiness or humility or liberality or compassion? These are the types of faith that shows up in the apostate, deceived, reprobate, self-righteous and deluded and the lost, not as the power of God to the true child of God.

Salvation is a gift, not a right and so is faith or Paul would not have written in II Corinthians 15:5a "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves..." Think like St. James, "can faith save him?" Now the easiest way for the true believer to prove yourself in the faith, and the hardest way for the false believer is to get God to bear witness to your faith and I mean His Holy Spirit, not some kind of unholy prideful spirit. If you think that the baptism and power of the Holy Spirit is the same as receiving the Holy Spirit, you have never understood the difference between Jesus breathing the spirit upon the disciples and then telling them to wait for the promise at Pentecost for the power. If you have been taught differently than what the Bible teaches, either get with a church that tells you the difference from the word of God or strengthen your own church with the truth. Full gospel means just that and if you think any different you are deluding your own selves.

This next time, we can discuss this even more because not everyone agrees. The premise that: 1. Eternal life is eternal and to be not eternal is nonsensical. 2. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 3. Those that seem to lose their salvation never had it to begin with.

We can also discuss verses that mention "them who draw back" found in Hebrews 10:36-39. I believe that the context is in saving faith, that the others are not part of us and that salvation is a process, making the premise "once saved, always saved" a moot point. Note the word "after." Agree? Don't agree?

For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:36-39

The responses this time speak of the faith mentioned, the question of what being a believer really means, salvation as the end of our faith, the important difference between atonement and redemption and especially, the importance of love as proof and the fact that we will be called heretics from all sides for not taking their extreme positions.

You may have noticed, the premise of losing your salvation or not is taken to middle ground here in that no one is truly saved yet so the controversy is bogus and just another tool of the enemy to separate us. I am disagreeing with the extremes yet defending both positions under certain circumstances. So far, the best arguments that I have seen have also taken this approach, especially this time, but we are looking for truth here, not a compromise. If salvation is a process, you cannot lose what you have not yet received in full. How about hearing from some people that may be changing their minds on this issue.


Praise the Lord Jay, remember Jesus said he has given to every man {the} measure of FAITH, we are born with FAITH, when we get saved and FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT we then begin to exercise that FAITH. Yes, we are all born in SIN as Jesus said. But PRAISE THE LORD, THANK YOU JESUS, for dying on the cross, thank you Jesus for shedding your BLOOD, thank you Jesus for picking me up, a sinner knew his name but didn't really know him. I only knew of him. When Jesus baptized me with the HOLY SPIRIT speaking in TONGUES as the SPIRIT give the evidence. Jesus put us here for a purpose, we are to be and are his MOUTH PIECE. He tells us to take the word, preach the GOSPEL, he said whatever town or place we enter and they don't receive it, to shake the dust off our feet and don't look back, but we look back because we wanted so much for them to hear the word of the Lord, to repent, ask forgiveness and receive Jesus as their personal SAVIOUR. We know that all things work together for good to them that Love the Lord, for them that are called.

God bless you.

Sister In Christ
Dorothy B., Goodman

Dear Jay,

The classic book dealing with this topic is "Life in the Son" by Robert Shank ... A study of the Doctrine of Perseverance.

Are the proof passages used to support eternal security possibly misconstrued? Dr. Shank argues that the question confronting us is not, Is the believer secure? but rather, What does it mean to be a believer? If apostasy is an actual peril for every Christian, the Scriptural warning passages must be frankly accepted rather than interpreted into irrelevance or circumvented by theological hypothesis.

I would encourage every sincere Christian with a heart searching for the truth to read "Life in the Son" and have the Bible ready at all times [like the Bereans] to look into the truth of what Dr. Shank says in light of God's word.

At one time I too believed "once saved always saved". "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" [Heb 5:9]. The promises are all conditional ... if my heart is not one of "obedience" ... I cannot continue to claim the promise. The bible talks about two kinds of belief ... (1) one from the heart and (2) one from the intellect. The devils believe intellectually ... after all Satan at one time was the choir leader in heaven ... how can he not intellectually believe? For the "belief or faith" to count it must be from the heart. Read closely and prayerfully John 2:23-24 which gives a clear picture of intellectual belief held by people.

One last comment ... once a person believes from his heart, do you believe the Bible teaches he will always believe from his heart? Do you believe the Bible teaches apostasy a thing of the past?

I am new to your newsletter for which I wish to thank you ... this is the first one I have received and thank you for the opportunity to respond.
Thank you again,

Hi all,

Well, Halleluyah! God is so very very good, true?

I had a dream the other day which I now have to share because I am so excited I can hardly breathe.

Actually, it was a revealing dream about a foulness I recognize personally, but when I got thinking about it, I recognized a bigger picture of something going on in the church.

I want to go sample a few more wheat-ears soon and I needed to see this. It comes to mind: "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them that are exercised thereby" Hebrews 12:11

The dream was two bedfellows, "Innocence" and "Corruption". Corruption was gazing lovingly at innocence and pawing at it, desiring it but not enough to make any difference. Innocence was doing its own pawing at corruption, keeping it there in the same bed for play. Gasp! I saw how some previous witness had failed, and how I enjoyed some people knowing that I was different because of what the Lord has done, but didn't care enough that they were perishing, and didn't seem to have power to change it.

I did what we all do (I hope) and confessed to the Lord, yes, it's me, forgive me, and cleanse me from all unrighteousness according to your Word. It was still there and I was tormented as another example of failed witness passed by. "Lord, don't show it to me and then not take it away!" Then I remembered, I'd been here before. The Word rose up into my mind again and I BELIEVED, and it was gone. It was faith. Faith, of which Jesus is the author and finisher. Invitations are useless unless they are used, and we are invited to believe God is true to His promises. It is faith which overcomes the world. 1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

Oh! Faith has a beginning and an ending, and it grows with us as we grow in the Lord, getting through the bad times, hanging on to that rope when everything else seems to have gone: 1 Peter1:7,8,9 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

Oh! We need to kick corruption out for good, it has no place in us, it cannot be allowed the bed-room. Lord, make us a people with eyes only for you, in Jesus' Name, AMEN

Love from Mary

Hi Everyone,

You know Mary, I see you and I see the joy of our salvation. I know that you are saved and that you have the belief in the promise of eternal life through that saving faith but I see love and compassion in you. Your dream was a good one, what of those innocence and corruption lying in the same bed as the Lord? Afterward, maybe we will see salvation, maybe not. Of course it is not ours to judge.

I was reminded today of the parable of the sower. Those that hear the word, some gladly, some in shallow soil, the increase in good soil. Now are all those saved? Many would think so, just ask the pastor who counts the commitment cards. But the ones that withered, were they saved? Jesus said that the seed was sown in the heart and the devil took it away. Jesus did not take it, the devil took it. But was that person saved and then lost it? Listen, Jesus said that he received it with joy. How many people are like that? Again was he saved and did he lose it? Or did he not have it at all?

Jesus is said to spend more time looking for the lost sheep than He spends with those that in the fold. I want to be able to love them just as much as He, but shall I consider the lost sheep as unsaved, or saved ones who haved lost their way and in need of revival? Again, I will not make that judgment but I just don't know about those that do make these judgments, this is really hard for me. I sometimes would rather spend time with those that are lost than those who thinks that they are found, I think that the foulness are pretty much those that look real good and saved but their hearts are not right. I would like for us to agree with this but that may take time. I just don't see it. Too much confusion right now. Maybe even the confusion is foul and we should be taking a harder stand on this issue. I am considered a heretic from all sides, you know why? Because I believe that the Bible is for us today as much as it was for the early church, because I believe in the communion of saints, because I believe that we are created in the image of God with free will, because I know that I will never lose my salvation. Well Paul was a heretic too, so I guess I am in good company but I really appreciate you all as being here with me.


you know how to provoke thought and emotion, surely a God given gift.

I agree with you, in much of what you say, salvation is given freely, is promised and not in according to us, but in according to us in Christ. Well may He ask, "Will i find faith on the earth?" when He returns.

the newspapers are nightmares, the news leads us further and further into the god of this age making himself the king of all he surveys, but it is surely our assured faith in Christ's return that keeps us from going mad in the head.

This is part of our salvation, knowing we are watched over by The Father, who only intends and operated for our good.

My salvation was indeed free, as promised, my promissory note of the Holy Spirit was also given, after i sought my Father out, i know many who waited for years for their gift of tongues, more praise to Jesus, they waited patiently, forever asking, and were answered in full.

Our salvation is guaranteed, but it is up to us and us alone, to stay where our salvation is. God doesn't move around, or shift the hedge, or the wall, we do. He isn't where we were when we were small, He isn't where we might be in twenty years time. He is Here and Now, and so is our saving grace, His Son. This is where He wants us, watching, waiting, fighting the good fight, running the good race, as paced as we can be with Him, for He can surely urge us on, or slow us down.

God saved us with His Son, Jesus staved the devil for us, because we would NEVER have done it ourselves, The Holy Spirit keeps us and shows us the Way of His Will, (God's Will)

it is always and entirely up to us to keep our freely given salvation up to date, so to speak, to guard against the carnal spirit, to stir up our gifts, and to stay on top of what is occurring.

Yet for all this, Jesus will come as a thief in the night, and even the elite of God will be deceived by the enemy, if that were possible.

A challenge, to be sure, but i cheated, i read the last page, guess what?

Jesus wins, and if we share His suffering, and overcome the world that is within us, we win too!

Cool, eh?


The misunderstanding that has lead to the eternal security debate is I believe a direct result of our lack of knowledge of what Jesus did on the cross for our sin. Most Christians do not even know the difference between Atonement and Redemption.

The mistake comes when we see redemption and salvation as the same thing. Jesus did both of these things on the cross. But he did much more. There were 5 yearly sacrifices that the Hebrews had to perform and two national sacrifices. They all speak to the sacrifice of Jesus. The first two atonement and redemption are mandatory for all and in Christ are applied to the accounts of all mankind.

Redemption only makes us children of God. It does not make us righteous. We must surrender our whole inner and outer man symbolized by the whole burnt offering and the meal offering. The Lord in surrendering His inner and outer man on the cross gives us the ability to surrender then and only then can we have fellowship with God (the last sacrifice) and eternal life.

Would God redeem people that would choose to go to hell. Yes, check 2 kings 6:24-7:20. This is the story of a rebellious people receiving judgement. Israel is being invaded by Assyria. Only the city of Samara was left. Even though they did not repent God saved them and gave them another chance to repent.

God sent Jeremiah to a nation the God knew would not repent. God loved them enough to send the message of repentance when there was no chance of them repenting. Yes I believe that God would redeem people that choose to go to hell.

All of humanity will get new bodies and exist forever. All of humanity is redeemed by the blood. Not all of humanity has fellowship with God for all eternity. This is what we call salvation it is in reality becoming a Righteous son. God has provided everything we need so we may walk righteous. We just have to surrender our will and become the slaves of righteousness.

We choose to be righteous sons and surrender to Gods power. Can we unchoose maybe. But those that think a prayer redeemed them are trusting in works salvation. Salvation is the process of becoming a righteous son of God. It is the work of God alone.

Pastor Jeff Frieske
Pillar of Fire Ministries

Dear Jay

I agree with most of your comments.

This is the way the I view forgiveness, repentance and salvation.

Most christians today, believe you ask for forgiveness and that is it. This is a false belief. Remember the words of the Lord to moses "And forgiving all iniquity and sin, but who by no means acquit the guilt." What this means is that all sin committed will be judged and punished. The words of Jesus "you who have left off the weightier matters of Judgement, Law and Mercy.

Therefore Forgiveness in my view is Time to complete your Repentance.

True repentance is a turning away from old mistakes, once you have been judged. It is a constant process, of learning to choose and do good always and not evil. This is not always easy as Satan tempts us in various forms. This is where I myself have failed in the past, and where many today get deceived. The state of apostasy in the world and church is alarming. As St. Peter said "if judgement begin in the house of God and the righteous are barely saved".

Salvation is achieved by the Love and Grace of Jesus Christ once you have demonstrated your willingness to follow him and to do good always. You will not have achieved perfection, as no one can perfect the Law only Jesus, even Moses got angry. Salvation is therefore achieved after death, once you have been judged and acquitted. This judgement is recorded all over the whole in various religions. Once you have been given the green light, You will enter the spiritual world/Eternity beneath the Altar of God (Revelation -Shiloh)to dwell with other righteous saints. Once the total judgement has been completed, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL ALL THE SAINTS GO INTO PARADISE/ETERNITY. We will all go in TOGETHER AS ONE UNIT. People of all Races and Tongues who have not given their lives to service the Devil, who will be eventually destroyed.

In my view saints who died before Jesus died, were returned to paradise when he arose from the grave. See Matthew, "the dead saints were seen in jerusalem" this my view was the fulfillment of Genesis 49 - Until Shiloh comes.

In my view the revelation reveals the process for saints who have died after Jesus Ascended. The early christian martyrs to christians today, See revelations.

Also in my view there are exceptional saints who after death when straight into paradise. Men like John the Baptist/Elijah, Enoch, Moses, the twelve Disciples, Aaron, King David, Abraham, Virgin Mary etc. When Jesus transfigured, Moses and Elijah were with him. Also if the 12 Disciples are to sit with him in judgment they would also need to be with him.

These are my views, which many have called Heresy in the past and even been killed by the church for such Views. I don't have all the answers, but I know one thing. The Kingdom of heaven is a spiritual place where all memory of the past and suffering are totally destroyed.


Beloved all,
It's the same answer of love to the lost sheep whether they are saved or unsaved. Some need to begin a process of faith for the promises of God, some need to be reminded that that was what they were up to before they lost their way. All of us need to come to the Lord with all our awful stuff and be forgiven and believe it and go on, I don't see that changing, or necessarily being any different between lost sheep and not found yet sheep. I can't stand formulae for salvation: "Here, read this piece of paper and say the prayer and you are saved" is just awful and insulting to God who is alive and aware of it and just aching for us all to be in there with Him enjoying this relationship. But we all have to come in by the door for communion with the Lord, and it is always in the same place, sometimes when people lose their way it is because they imagine that the door for them is in a higher, brighter, bigger place from where they look down on others. Not so.
Love to you, I really like it here too.

Dearest Lovers of God and Lovers of His Creation,
Without LOVE it is all clanging cymbals and sounding brass....

I believe the Lord has been pouring His Love out upon His Church (and all the world) in these past three years (especially), transforming the sound of the clanging cymbals and the sounding brass. Causing a change in the tone -- for with Love comes understanding. With Love, comes compassion. With Love comes the changed heart, one that no longer has to defend itself -- but understands the importance of differences as well as similarities. With Love, comes the divine energies and the divine sight to look through the differences, to see the Lord in the midst of all the Brethren -- and to Love all creation with the Love that they have received. Without Love, our sight remained 'caught on the surface' and could not penetrate through anything at all.. With Love this 'looking through' what is seen, to see that which is unseen seems to be a teaching the Spirit of the Lord is showing in a myriad of applications. We are to be people who walk by faith -- not sight, and with Love leading the way, this journey becomes a most blessed one. Love pours forth in all directions -- and it matters not in the slightest how it is received, or where it is released -- it continues to flow unhindered, if we will be courageous and just allow it to happen. Love is like a new set of glasses being put on -- where all things that we see, are filtered through Love -- and offenses cannot penetrate. This is the Life of the Spirit, who indeed is shedding Love abroad in our hearts -- this is the Fruit of the Gospel -- this is the Holy Spirit being Himself in and through us. We can take no credit for this -- for it is Him being Himself. We can surely enjoy it though --and we can refuse to allow fear to interfere. We can become truly Christian -- in Christ's meaning of that word!

Yes, we will be called heretics by those who remain in bondage to the walls of denominationalism -- whether those walls are real or just a mindset that needs the framework of a fortress of some sort in order to feel 'separated' from the world -- or believes these walls will 'protect' them against the deception coming upon the earth. Those of the "church without walls" have learned to walk with Christ inside and outside the walls, so they know that HE is their refuge and He is a mobile rescuer. :) They are not a stationary body, but a mobile body -- flowing inside and outside the wall, belonging to no one but Christ, but free to go as the wind blows - as the Spirit leads. This body, clothed in the Fires of Love, will increase in intensity as the Lord burns more and more clearly and purely in flesh that is being consumed in His very fire... This Fire will be unquenchable, even as the Song of Songs speaks of it -- many water cannot put out this fire -- for this is the fire of a soul/body/spirit in passionate Love with her Beloved Husband Jesus... and especially in Love with the others who know this Love. There is a unity in this Love which has only rarely been seen on earth, but will be seen in this day in a way that has never before been revealed.

Those whose hearts have been willing to receive this Love, have been changed drastically -- even in this short a time. Those who have hardened their hearts and refused to receive, will become that much harder. The separation has been happening.. and there truly is a body rising up through the open roofs of the boxes, meeting in the air (in the Spirit) -- becoming One in Christ, in Love.

I pray blessings over this portion of the Body, that all might embrace the Love of God (Christ Jesus!) ... becoming extravagant Lovers of God and lovers of man... and in this way become those disciples of His, the Lord prophesied would be known by their Love one for another. This is Christianity -- may we become truly Christians!!

In Love's service to His Bride,
your sister, Linda

Heb. 2:1.---' Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed.'

By ' giving earnest heed ' the writer means that we should continue and increase the earnest devotion to Christ, and to all that Christ has said and done, which marked the commencement of our Christian life. Take, for instance, the sense of danger associated with the sense of unforgiven sin. It was true then that only by Jesus Christ could we be delivered from everlasting destruction; it is just as true now. It was true then that by the life and death of the Lord Jesus our sins were atoned for; and all the wonder, and thankfulness, and joy, with which we then thought of His sacrifice, are as appropriate now as they were then. It is still true that we need the power of the Holy Spirit to sanctify our hearts. The work of Christ has not become less important to us; His love is less amazing; the necessity of trusting in Him is not diminished. It is by permanent faith that we have permanent justification---by permanent unity with Christ that we have permanent spiritual life.

What are the motives which he suggest for giving heed?

This salvation has been proclaimed to us by the Lord Himself, and the greatness of His dignity is a motive for giving ' earnest heed ' to it. In the previous chapter the writer appeals to the long series of Divine revelations which had covered many previous centuries, in order to exalt and to illustrate the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. Prophets were but the servants of God, and brought to men only fragmentary intimations of His will. Angels themselves, like the wind and lightning, are but His messengers. He has spoken to us now by One whom is the brightness of His glory, the express image of His person; by One who created all things, and upholds them still by the word of His power; by One who, having purged our sins, is made Heir of all things, and is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Yes, it is He---God manifest in the flesh---who speaks; who speaks to us, as He spake to the men that lived in Judea and Galilee twenty centuries ago. We still read His very words; we see Him still revealing the Father---in His gentleness to human sorrow, in His pity for human weakness and profligate that repent of sin and appeal to Him for help, in the agony of Gethsemane, and the sufferings of the cross, in which Divine love plunges into the depths of human misery that sin may be atoned for and the human soul be restored to God. It is He who speaks to us, after years of religious profession, as He spake to us years ago, warning us of our danger, reproving us for our sin, and imploring, commanding us to receive forgiveness and eternal life. We, above all men---we, His servants---are bound to listen. And it is the living Christ that speaks to us.

Finally, should we perchance to ' neglect ,' there can be no escape from an intolerable doom. This is the ' great salvation '; there is no other. We have not to speculate on the future condition of those who have never heard of the Lord Jesus Christ, or to whom the gospel has been presented under such a dark disguise that it is not wonderful they refuse to give any heed to it, or whose intellectual idiosyncrasies have made it almost impossible for them to receive the theory of the Christian faith, or who, from the miserable influences under which they have lived from their childhood, have lost nearly every moral element to which the gospel appeals. Nor are we considering how those can ' escape ' who, with no such reasons for unbelief as these, have uniformly and persistently rejected the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. But ' how shall we escape,'---we who once believed; we who were once forgiven; we who were once renewed; we who have seen the face of Christ and heard His welcome into the household of faith; we who, in addition to all the external proofs of the Divine Commission of the Lord, have had the consciousness of the power He exerts over the soul in awakening a new life, and in giving strength to overcome the world and to do the will of God? ' How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?' Can we hope that God will pardon our sin? It is God's pardon to which we are becoming indifferent. Or can we hope that He will give us a better mind? He has already renewed us, but we are actually resisting His grace, and sinking into ' the second death.' 'How shall we escape?' A law transgressed still leaves an appeal to mercy; but for those who have received mercy and who now reject it, there is nothing but ' a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.'

In Christ, Timothy.

Hi all,
As usual, Timothy, your "giving heed" letter is a feast, I fear my response will lack your depth and gift of expression.

Tell me if I've understood properly, do you say that it isn't the continuance in sin that robs us of our salvation (since God has promised He will forgive us if we confess and cleanse us from all unrighteousness), but rather the refusal to accept His Mercy? That is a way of looking at it that I hadn't considered, and it is good because it refuses to accept any ground on which we might claim God has proved Himself unmerciful, and gives comfort to the poor soul who has been pushed to the limit of his endurance and has fallen. Often we aren't as kind to our brethren who struggle in sin as our Lord would have us be, perhaps because we ourselves haven't seen our own persistent awfulness, and thus got a grip on what God's grace really is.

Past experiences parade before my eyes - a few years back, after a drunken session of misery the night before, I crept into church, feeling for God but afraid that He had withdrawn from me, heard the unfamiliar tongue given and waited for the interpretation with a "fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation". I had my eyes tight shut. Nobody knew what was happening in me. I listened, and what I heard was "I love you so much". Then a few more things which I can't remember, but again, "I love you so much". I began to cry from a place I didn't know I had, somehow I knew the Lord had put His finger exactly on that spot that was the cause of my falling in that way. Did I willingly sin and put myself into a place where God would not reach me? clearly not. His mercy endures forever, and that is better known than theorized upon. This is not an encouragement to sin, we all know sin is an easy thing to do. But when we sin, we have our Jesus: " My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

I understand completely, Jay, when you say "sometimes I would rather spend time with the lost than those that think they are found". I'd rather have honest dirt than dirt covered over with a veneer of religious respectability. I'd rather also spend time with a brother who confesses his sin than any who hides it to keep his position in the church unchallenged. Hard times. But we know how foul we can be, let's pray the Lord will extend our field of mercy to match His own.

Much love from Mary

Lord Jesus, Can I Lose my salvation??
Can I?

His reply:
Are you not my bride?
Are you getting ready for the wedding?
I went to the cross so we would no longer be separated and you ask such a question?

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:15-21

But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, then I will uproot them from My land which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples. And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, 'Why has the Lord done thus to this land and this house?' Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this calamity on them.'" 2 Chronicles 7:19-22

(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, To cast out all thine enemies from before thee, as the LORD hath spoken. Deut 6:15-19

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matthew 21:22

Do you believe you have received salvation?
Ask me face to face as a bride does to her groom!

salvation - eternity with the Lord
Are you spending your days in my Presence?
Living to worship me?

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

Run the Race with me to the end, that you may overcome the world!

Lane Denise

The only thing that came to my mind is the scripture 'work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling'. Perhaps we get into trouble when we try to systemize and micromanage the faith of others. It is God which works in us BOTH to WILL and to DO of HIS good pleasure. We need to focus more on the reality of what salvation really IS and God's keeping power, and not overemphasize the works of the flesh. At the same time, anyone who has received mercy from the Lord will be changed, not by working up anything, but just because the Holy Spirit is doing the work. Just as in the body we have the sympathetic and parasympathetic nerve systems, which work in opposition to keep us healthy and able to function well, so there is truth which is in opposition, not contradiction to keep us spiritually well.

That is my take on it anyway,


Hi all,
It's a bit hushed around here lately. Timothy, how do you do it, really good teaching again. I can't do what you do, but I think perhaps I have a little relevant testimony to what you say (oh no, not again!)

Seems to me, so far we have discussed the process of salvation in all sorts of ways without mentioning the influence of the devil much, and what part he plays in getting us off the path. If it were just about God wanting us saved, and us wanting to be saved, there surely would be no problem. But all God's people suffer enemy onslaught of varying degrees, the object being to disturb and uproot the good seed. I know I won't be alone when I say that my path has been beset by difficulties from the beginning: whenever my hope in Christ began to rise up in my heart, always there were new circumstances to steal my time, my energy, my joy.

I come back to a time, not many years ago, after the baptism of the Holy Spirit and while the fire was still burning brightly, that a series of events began to unfold that were nearly my undoing. Looking back I have often thought how well designed the trouble was to bring me to my knees in despair, and wondered if the enemy had made a good study of me. It was as if I was being pushed and pushed to a point where I would be unable any longer to hold on to my faith. When we began to talk about if it were possible to lose our salvation, this memory came back and I was fearful as I explored it. I knew, in my heart, there was a point where I could have turned away. It was as if the whole weight of reason and good sense drew me into declaring "there is no God". The situation was intolerable. Words rose up in my heart accusingly to God, "You said you'd never let me go!" and I fell asleep in exhaustion.

Something more was happening in my "accusation" than I realized. Jesus said Matt 28:20 - "...and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Also in Hebrews 13:5 "... I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." I knew what God had said, and although I didn't know quite what I was doing at the time, I was holding Him to His word. The enemy had fled by morning. The circumstances were the same, but I was safe.

It is as well to know that the enemy will make every effort to spoil our experience. He is the accuser of the brethren. He is a liar and a deceiver. He is our adversary who,"as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" He will use anyone or anything if he thinks it will work, and he knows who he can trust to deliver his blows. No less than the "whole armour of God" (Eph.6) will do in combat with him. We ignore him at great risk.

Why ever would we bother with God if it is going to be a hard fight? Oh, think of the times when we have known his hand upon us in a wonderful way. Think of the secret times of sweet communion with Him, when we heard His voice, His assurance, His whispers of love, His perfect comfort. Think of the time that is coming soon when we will see Him face to face. We choose Life, not death, no contest! Praise His Name!

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. 1 Peter 1:22-25

sending love from Mary

Hi all,

Jay, this letter is important, let us know what kind of a response you get.

I am conscious this week that there are those who visit but don't post, whose hearts are divided over the issues raised in Jay's letter. It is really, really hard to consider a major change such as coming out of the church visible into the liberty of that not made by hands. It would be easier if while inside we had not been busy loving our brethren according to the work of God in us, because it is heartbreaking to consider cutting the ties that have bound us to each other for so long. Does loyalty count for nothing? What about our ministries and "position" in the fellowship? How will I face the inevitable loneliness? There is much to hold us to "business as usual".

And yet...we feel the gnawing dissatisfaction as we see, time after time, people suffering at the expense of fleshly leadership; elitism, and jostling for increasingly superior positions in the church structure; a change in emphasis from liberty to legalism as rule is sought and maintained; a bending of the rules to the point of hypocrisy, the Pharisaic "do as I say (but not as I do) principal. There are many casualties in this kind of set-up.

When dissatisfaction hits, we sometimes suffer a kind of pride that it is we who have been specially chosen to right the wrongs in the church single-handedly: Beware this notion, it is a snare which leads to further dissatisfaction, and downward-spiraling standards, as further fleshly methods fail to work.

To those who struggle in the dilemma of staying or going, I would say "Seek the Lord, seek the Lord, and then seek the Lord." Refuse to have any authority other than His. If you are born again, you have His authority in you so listen what He is saying to you. Soak yourself in the Word: Does it match up with what you see around you? Does it match up with what is happening in you? Is there a difference between the two?

There might be a period of acute personal need of some sort. How is this dealt with? Being really needy is a good way to find out who the "real ones" are. Jesus said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" Matt 7:16

I do not think that now is a time to hang about. Not long ago I had a dream about a long road that I was on, and I was constructing a path for myself out of tyre tread, presumably to stop me slipping, "making straight paths for my feet". At the side of the road was a kind of park bench, where there were church members in matching sweatshirts, sitting down and swinging their legs. I asked one where Jesus was, and she said "Oh, He's in prison" as if it didn't matter in the least. Beloved, it is time we sprung Him out of that place.

Staying or going must be by the Lord's direction, and if we know it is then we will have left the badlands of double-mindedness, and stepped into His will, where there is peace, correctness, and purity of purpose, and a whole load of blessings He is aching to give us. Hasn't He promised to meet every need?

Love in Jesus,
P.S Where are Michael Clark, Eric and James who used to post - is everything O.K?

Hi Mary,

I realize that there are those that post every once in a while and then don't and that there are regular contributors and there are those that get really involved once that something sparks their particular interest. I have gotten used to that and I will tell you all why.

When I started the list, it was to put Jesus in charge. I had been muzzled long enough concerning what the Lord had been teaching me and He made it very clear that I was to start a discussion list where we could have the freedom to discuss without fear of being gagged. I just sent a letter off to Pam Clark, who has just asked me to co-moderate on the prophetic mentors list which was cut short by the passing of Roger Taylor the other week. Completely different type of group and I have been told not to bring up anything controversial. Fine, I guess I can do that and since the focus is different, I accepted with honor. On the flip side, it made me realize just what a very different type of group we have on the latter rain list. It is still mentoring and equipping and coming to maturity but controversy is supreme here, in fact I guess you could say that controversy is the hallmark of this list in that it is not avoided but encouraged.

Controversy challenges our thinking like no other activity in discussion. It gets us excited, it challenges our beliefs and it opens our minds to other ways of thinking on issues. I made it very clear that we are to love and respect each other and put away our pride for it to work. The amazing fact is that it has worked, not for everyone but I have had to channel what works. I guess not so amazing since it was dedicated to the authority of Jesus from the start but we have been able to do what other lists are afraid to do and that means that we do not compromise on what needs to be said, we are not afraid of losing people by offending them, we can speak what the Lord puts on our hearts without fear of ridicule and we get a lot done in the process. Of course we are not always successful and I have made mistakes but I have to tell you that I have had to change my mind on many an issue for the sake of peace. That is not compromising my beliefs but rather refines them to come into a purity that Jesus can deal with in us, He is the Prince of peace. If pride is king, there is no repentance and for sure, no unity. Many things have been totally revelatory for me on this list, accompanied by spiritual maturation. I know that I am not alone in this in that there are others who have had that same type of experience.

However, I am reminded of what Jesus said about John the Baptist that "He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light." Now, Jesus is the light but we are His servants and we shine too and I have many times been confirmed as having an Elijah anointing. You know this is very beneficial to know this because it gives me an understanding of the type of ministry that I have and how to conduct myself, not me only but many of us are called to that. Many rejoice in this list, learn and lot and contribute and then move on to greater things for the Lord. Some get offended and pride keeps them from contributing any more out of fear of rejection or stubbornness and pride to let go of pre-conceived notions but they still were able to rejoice in the light for a season. Some will not get rid of their false doctrine or denominational bias but while they are here, they expose what is false so that we can identify it. The common thread in all this is that the list keeps going and keeps growing, we still have our contributors even though they may change and whatever is given by any one of us is a matter of record now.

I used to wonder why these things are so and why we cannot just come together as a group and have that perfect unity that holds us together as unique purveyors of the truth and become some kind of force for revival as a firmly knitted body. Well, we do not need any more denominations or churches or little cliques, there have been enough of them to last until Jesus comes. What we are doing is equipping ourselves and those that have been watching and listening to what we do. Although there are not many that participate, we have an audience of almost a thousand living and breathing souls. Many of them from time to time, let me know how much they are getting blessed. I am content in that we do what it is that we do. I do not need any more that the more that we do from week to week. I am not always inspired to write, sometimes it is hard but then when it comes, it flows from me. I have thought many times that I should take back what I said, sometimes I do just that, there are times when I should have said things better but isn't that the same with all of us? No problem, just keep on keeping on and praising the Lord for the privilege to do what we have been doing. I get down sometimes and need encouragement. But it always comes, just when I think that I should quit and do something else, something or someone comes along that makes me realize that it is all worthwhile and we really are doing something wonderful here.

So, I have very little to contribute to this edition to the list. Why? Because you have this week been writing so much great stuff that there would be no way to top it. So, like I have done so many times, I go over what you all have written and try to come to some kind of consensus that reflects the unity and love of Jesus in you. Not so hard? Well sometimes it is hard but when it is done, people like it and they get blessed. So, onward and upward.

Maybe some day, we will become a force that effects change more than we do. But when that time comes, it will be among many others who have the same passion and love for the truth that we have. There is a great transformation going on in the body of Christ right now and we should all be glad to be a part of it. As long as we are doing what the Lord would have us do from day to day, we will do fine. Are there are more things that we should be doing? Listen, keep on the watch and be open for every opportunity to hear what the Lord has for us. He know what is best, I have too often gone ahead of His timing but right now, I am content with discussing the issues in love and humility so that we can come to one accord.

How about you?


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