Run the Race

August 21, 2001

We cannot really understand what it is to be saved without bringing in the idea of eternity. Eternity has no beginning and no end, so in effect, in our lifetime, no one is really saved yet because we are still in a temporal existence. But then, if we enter into eternal life now, as we are taught, then all who have been chosen before the foundation of the world are saved already, always have been and always will be. That dichotomy is a hard concept to understand and it is no wonder that there is so much controversy surrounding eternal security. The fact is that Jesus said on one hand that it was those who will endure to the end that will be saved and then told the women that was forgiven of her sins that "thy faith hath saved thee."

Now if Jesus tells us that "he that endureth to the end shall be saved," does He mean the end of the aisle at an altar call? I don't think so. Look at all the dead churches that rely on simple faith for salvation. No repentance, no deliverance, no infilling of the Holy Ghost, no love or unity with others who disagree with their traditions, just a simple confession of faith and zap, you are saved and into the kingdom of heaven. What a crock! This has got to be one of the high places that we must tear down in these days. Not only are they told they are saved but they are ipso facto saints.

Salvation, therefore, is a past, present and future work, those that are being saved have always been saved in terms of eternity, yet still in the process from our point of "being." The element of faith and works enter into the misunderstandings also. Paul teaches us that it was according to grace and mercy and not by works of righteousness, still our reasonable service is to bring our bodies into subjection and walk worthy of our calling and as St. James says "faith without works is dead, being by itself." Certainly we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling" as Paul tells us in Philippians but then he goes on to say "for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." So, the only way we can truly work out our salvation is when God does it through us. It is by faith in the name of Jesus that we are saved but then Paul also tells us that "we are saved by hope."

Clearly, faith is not enough. There are scriptures that would make you think so because of the importance of faith: whoever calls on the name of the Lord, he that believeth and is baptized, etc. But the scriptures are also clear that the devils also believe and that weak faith may not be enough, nor is the misplaced faith that arises from trusting in false prophets that also come in the name of Jesus. These things should not be so complicated but they are, the simplicity is that love makes the difference and the reason that it is not spelled out as clearly as it could be. Our salvation is borne out by faith, hope and love, love being the greatest of the three and the only objective proof of another's salvation. Do not be surprised in that our salvation is accompanied with trial and tribulation, this is how we enter the kingdom.

"Being" saved is the important thing whether that is a process or an immediate result of our justification through the atonement of the cross. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." I Cor 1:18.

When Jesus said that many will call me Lord but "I never knew you," He did not say that I used to know you but now I don't, He said that He never knew you at all, nada, zip, and it is in our relationship to others that we are known. I hope you see the difference. In the long run, it is not whether we can lose our salvation but whether we really have it at all.

We know that the apostasy is here and that includes people that have abandoned the faith. Quite possibly that in this age of grace that we are in where Jesus has died for all, that we are all included in the book of life and if we choose to refuse it, we are erased from that book. Who knows? I cannot doubt the salvation of one that has a healthy fear of God to think that he could be erased from the book of life. Nor can I doubt the salvation of one that is so secure in the love of God to know that this eternal life can never be taken away from him. I can doubt the salvation of either one who thinks that the other is a heretic for not feeling the same way over the issue. That betrays the love of God and puts Jesus to open shame. That loss of love and unity is the apostate Christian of the hour no matter how saved he thinks he is.

Paul tells us to run the race. It is a race of endurance; we cannot finish the race if we give up in the middle, thinking that we have already reached the end. "...Let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrew 12:1." Run the race, yes, it is still up to us to make that decision. We must do it with the blood of Jesus running through our veins, enthusiastic adrenaline pumping from our hearts to reach out to others to join us in this holy calling. The heart is a muscle and to borrow from Bosley to the angels - in bodybuilding, we exercise the muscle and it grows bigger and stronger. It's the same with the heart. We are going to be so buff that we can clean and jerk His love three sets, ten reps each. We do not run to compete with others, Jesus has already won, we just need to join Him and finish together. To run the race like the heathen and trust in our salvation without the heart felt compassion for others is not holiness, it is a cop out, it is watching the race from the side-lines.

Don't get me wrong, I have a long way to go but when I sin, I cannot trust in my salvation for positional holiness, I must repent and ask for forgiveness. Does someone have a better way? Paul knew: "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our LORD, I die daily." I Corinthians 15:31. He was not sure that he would finish the race but where does that leave me? I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am saved and will never lose it, I just cannot say that for everyone. Paul felt the same way but knew that he had not yet arrived.

Some may need to come to the point of doubt before they can come to a saving faith. I believe that doubt is a good thing. Doubt is not the same as unbelief but will challenge mistaken notions of misplaced faith. We need to doubt our institutions, our pre-conceived notions, our prejudices, the traditions of men and allow the Holy Spirit to create in us a little inspirational dissatisfaction of present circumstances. Unless of course, you think that you already got it all and have need of nothing, then you have already lost the race.

We are not yet agreed on this, it's time for us to come together and speak the same thing, this is what Jesus prayed for. He will come back, but not until there is that great cloud of witnesses singing a new song of love and unity for Him to join at the end of the race. Get back to me and let's see if we can come to some kind of consensus. The responses this time reflect both positions including the process mentioned. Both sides make sense but there must be a truth that we can unite on. Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it.


Hi Jay,

Let me begin by saying, I believe that salvation is in three tenses. I have been saved - i.e. justified. I am being saved --i.e. sanctified. I will be saved -- i.e. glorified. See: II Cor. 1:9-10 "Yes we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead, Who delivered" (saved) -- aorist tense, which usually is punctiliar or point action --, "us from so great a death (justification). and does deliver us" (sanctification) -- present tense -- present tense which signifies continuous action (yes, day by day). Yes God continually removes those things from our lives not pleasing to him. He does this by convicting us and we discard them or chastening us until we do, "and will deliver us" (glorification). This is the future tense of salvation. Yes, in this sense salvation is a continuous process; but, I can never be more justified than I am the moment I truly repent of my sin(s) and anchor my faith in the shed blood and atoning work of our Lord at Calvary.

See: Rom. 8:29,30. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to he image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called, whom he called, these He justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Please notice the once and for all justification seems to guarantee glorification --regardless of how sanctified I may become, for sanctification is not mentioned in this verse. So, yes Once I have been saved --(justified) I will be saved -- glorified.

Praise His grace and mercy!!

Here's some more scripture and thoughts on "eternal security"

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never (a double negative in the original) perish. My father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my father's hand." John 10:28,29 Consider the phrases "in Christ" and "Christ is you."

All of Romans 8 which begins with "no condemnation" (8:1) and continues with "no alienation" as sons of God, (8:12ff) and then "no frustration" (8:28-31) and finally "no separation" (8:35 - 39)

A little girl was once asked, "How long is eternal" She responded, "It just never stops" That, I believe is true about "eternal life."

Regarding the passage mentioned in Heb. 6:4-6 Most people I know who quote this passage believe that if you "fall away" and are again lost, one can be saved again. But, I believe the passage teaches that is impossible because Christ would have to die again, and it would be impossible to "renew them to repentance" which we agree is essential for salvation.

The writer of Hebrews, who, by the way, I think is Paul, answers the problem in verse 9 where he writes, "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you and things that accompany salvation." I understand that the rest of the passage warns about "sluggishness" and "holding our to the end." This was good advise for these Hebrew believers in the Jerusalem church who were being tempted to go back to the "works of the law" which could never save.

Jay, I believe the entire Old and New Testament declares salvation by grace and not by "works of the law". (including the book of James which teaches the kind of works which follow genuine faith) See: Morgan, "The Analyzed Bible," James, p. 346

If I could be saved by my good works I am sure I would be come Pharisaical. Most of us would.

All of this is not to say, as Paul thought the Romans might say, "Then I can do any thing I want to do." I agree that some of the old desires are still there, but by sanctifying grace, I am to consider myself as "dead to sin" but alive to God. The Holy Spirit enables us to do that. And John wrote, IF anyone sins, let him know that he has an advocate with the Father... and if we confess our sins He will forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. PTL!!! When one waits too long to confess, like David, we may lose the "joy of our salvation" but not our salvation. The Lord may have to spank us, but he will never disown us. He, even more so than we, is a loving Heavenly Father.

There are many more references. "Seek and you shall find. Knock and it will be opened to you."

In the Name of Him who lives and will never die again,
Fraternally yours,


Hey Jay,

Thank you for keeping me on your mailing list. I have enjoyed receiving the postings once again and would like to contribute a little some thing for a change instead of only being a receiver and the blessed one who gets to read these wonderful gleanings. The "revived grain" of the gospel. I have always believed that there is a law of God's eternal grace toward us who become His children and joint heirs thru Christ. Yet I know that we can back slide and also fall away into a state of Apostate Christianity so easily thru the hardness of our hearts and there I believe is where God has a right to "divorce" us as it were.

Yet again, He says all throughout His word that He will draw us back and woo us and bring us near and save us if we repent and turn to Him and drop our idols and look only to him. How far will He go for us?

For Christ has been crucified once and for all it is the continuous work of the Cross I know and reaches through out the ages as a complete and precise act that covers all sin sickness and conditions of the heart and soul and mind and for us to continue in sin and evil ways after once having tasted this "overwhelming grace" as it were, how can He not have the right to cast us aside as unfaithful and useless to His purposes.

There are so many back up scriptures for what I am saying Jay and my life's experiences have taken my to the edge but His restraining love and the revelation of the Cross have "kept" me in His love and I could never leave Him or grieve my Lord and God. Hebrews 6 is the one I will use as my quote here ok about repentance from dead works and verse 4 Paul says:

That having once partaken of the heavenly gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit IT IS IMPOSSIBLE ONCE WE FALL AWAY TO BE RESTORED and renewed to repentance since we crucify again for ourselves The Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Blessings in Jesus Holy name

Jilly (Golden Eagle)

Hi Jay, and all,
John 10:27 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" Question - Can we, or can we not, ever lose our salvation? I have a feeling that our eyes will all be on the responses to this one. All of us can admit to having had serious doubts about our salvation at some time or another. The question brings us back to ourselves with trembling "Is it ever possible that I might lose MY salvation?" The answer is suddenly very important.

It is interesting how often we have to come back to fundamentals like this. I trust we are His sheep. We know it, don't we? If it is true that we can ever lose our salvation, it isn't for the lack of effort on God's part. A brother I know had been spending some time with a drunk in the city. He spent several hours being with him, talking to him about the Lord, labouring on. The man had been sick down his front. Eventually he began to sober up. He turned out to be a brother in the Lord, and the two found themselves embracing on the city streets emotionally. How tenderly the Lord seeks us out when we have wandered off.

As individuals we need to hear His voice.

I can think of three types of "hearing" - you can hear with your ears, listening to the Word week in, week out, Scriptures read aloud at meetings. Many do only this and think it is enough.

You can hear with your heart - the Word affects your interior - conviction of sin, assurance of belonging, comfort in adversity: all essential bricks in the building of faith.

You can hear in the Spirit, something new. Hearing the Lord's voice personally, present tense, in a given situation, and responding, despite inevitable opposition. Not just hearing, but doing - James 1:22, also Matt.25: 32 on.

In summary,
Are we His sheep?
Do we hear His voice?
Do we know that we are known by Him?
Are we following Him?

If yes the rest is ours:
John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 - My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Phew! Love to you from Mary

Hi Jay,

i truly believe we can lose our salvation, we can lose the Holy Spirit from within, but only after many many weary lengths of ignoring and defying The Lord.

When i was younger, i read a story of a man, a great man he was, in God's Will, who unwillingly went his own way, believing he was doing what God wanted, and after some severe warnings, God took His Holy Spirit from within, the man did not even realize until the next time he went to church.

The visiting pastor told him he was cold and black in his spirit. whatever he had done, he had better repent and get down as low as he could and ask God to see him, and then ask for forgiveness.

The man received God again, he was baptized again, and received the Holy Spirit again, and he never forgot.

God's purposes are so high above ours, His plans are so intricate and well thought out, that we can only ever glimpse the edges.

If God can save us from death, and all sin and sickness, surely He can take all it away too.

A note for you on tithing.

I believe we not only are asked for money, tenth of what we have, but we should also tithe time, love, and our worldly possessions also. To give all we have, is surely to receive all He has for us in return.

Test Me in this, says the Lord God. Give one tenth of what you have, and your barns and storages will not be able to hold that which i return to you...

not the verse, word for word, but it keeps my heart when it seems i have nothing, and i tithe to show God i still believe he is my provider


On the issue of once saved always saved I believe that we all are in the process of being saved. That is every scripture that relates to being saved is just that. SHALL BE SAVED... He that endureth unto the end shall be saved... If you confess with your heart and believe in your heart you shall be saved... So it is a continued process and we are all in due process and being Saved and satisfied just don't go together.


It is always possible to lose our salvation, after we have received or providing we have received salvation according to the passion of Jesus Christ. We can and do lose our salvation according to our own works or actions. Let me tell you again our loss of our own salvation depends on our own actions or sins. I am talking about the sins we ourselves commit and never try to obtain forgiveness for or we just neglect to continue to grow in the word of God the Father Almighty.

The people of the earth now, are just like the Israelites were upon just being freed from the slavery of the Egyptians. The Israelites were free and the Holy Father wanted from the people repentance, forgiveness, and obedience. The Israelites wanted all the necessities of life and to continue in the former ways of the Egyptians that they knew. Are we the people of the earth now going to continue in our former ways which have all failed, because our ways are not according to the ways of our Holy Father Jesus Christ, or are we going to repent and conform to the ways of our loving Father Jesus Christ and inherit the Promised Land ? We are spiritual Israelites you know and it is not the earth itself that is sinful, it is the people living on the earth and our sins that will keep us from Jesus and his Father and that Promised Land. Can we lose our salvation?

Yes we sure can, if we do not continue with an attitude of change, repentance, and christian growth according to the ways of Jesus the Christ forever. Let us start our growth by trying to be in imitation of the one who is worthy, Jesus Christ.

Marantha, forever.


Dearest Jay,

Is Eternal Life Eternal?

I believe that it is impossible for those who are truly born again to lose their salvation. If they could, would they be able to get saved again? If they could be saved again, would it be necessary for them to get baptized again? If that were the case, you could get saved and baptized over and over and over again, but yet we don't read a word about anyone getting re-saved or re-baptized in the Bible. If a person could not be re-saved, then Christ who said we would never perish, is a liar.

And how could we possible have peace and joy if we thought we could lose our salvation?

Plus, when we shared the gospel with someone, wouldn't we have to warn them right from the start that they could become lost again. Wouldn't they then be too afraid to get saved? And if they couldn't regain their salvation, shouldn't they wait then until their dying moment to get saved?

Some who only appear to be saved, then appear to lose their salvation. They don't, however, lose their salvation because they were never truly saved to begin with. They just looked like "wheat."

This is an issue that I have studied and studied and studied. My beliefs and some supporting verses follow:

Eternal life is eternal! True sheep follow Jesus. True sheep love the other sheep. True sheep are confident of their salvation. True don't have any sins left that will take them to hell. True followers do deeds that accompany salvation:

John 5:24-25

24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:16-17

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:28

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

John 10:4-6

4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

1 John 4:19-21

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Col 2:13-15

He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Rom 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 6:7-9

7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case-things that accompany salvation.

The Bible in many ways tells us to persevere, and those who truly know God obey the admonition to persevere. God makes true believers stand. We obey all the verses that tell us to stand:

Heb 3:14-15

14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Rom 14:1-4

14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak…To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Some say they are Christians, but they are not. If they fall away, it is because they never truly belonged to Christ in the first place:

Matt 13:29-30

29 "`No,' he answered, `because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matt 25:11-12

11 "Later the other [virgins] also came. `Sir! Sir!' they said. `Open the door for us!' 12"But he replied, `I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.



A Sister in the Lord

I don't think we can "lose" it, but we can walk away from it... you can have it and then walk away from God.

Jeff Hamilton

Can we lose our salvation? after we've prayed the prayer, been baptized, in water, baptized in the Holy spirit walked a walked with God, repented? C. S. Lewis said, "I think all Christians would agree with me if I said that though Christianity seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes. But this is near the stage where the road passes over the rim of our world. No one's eyes can see very far beyond that: lots of people's eyes can see further than mine."

Some simply lose their way in legalism. For some there is a point that many walk away, along about the "seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue.." the virtue part, well some walk away in unbelief, others walk away, out of not wanting to be hypocrites when they see the "duties and rules and guilt and virtue," part demanded upon them, by their brethren who have lost their way in legalism, and when they find their brethren are no better than themselves, because they get to know them. After these walk away Christ always finds them again, I know that is so, one way or another. There are others who never believed, but instead, prayed a prayer of fire insurance and walked away in unbelief, because what was being asked of them was not what their flesh had in mind. And they never have their own mind, but think with their flesh. They never opened up to receive the Mind of Christ, because their heart was too hard and their flesh demanded its way-and their spirit never had the chance to assert itself with God. They were never taught how to hide themselves in Christ with God, the church never taught them that.

"In every battle you will need faith as your shield to stop the fiery arrows aimed at you by Satan."(EPH 6:16;NLT). The word for shield was the Roman shield which was almost the size of a door, and when it was being deployed in battle with flaming arrows, the company in unison, locked them in almost lego-like function and together the shields, one over the top of the upright shields from the flank in front, and over the top the upright shields from the flank in back, forming a hundred man armored box. The Roman company then, took on the form of an impermeable shelter against an army of bow men, until their flaming arrows were spent and the army advanced. In every believer's mind that heard those words at that time -- knew how this worked, because they'd seen or heard how the Roman Army took over the world, and the early church worked that way too. The early Church was a well functioning spiritual refuge not a bible-teaching station to be tithed to. Every battle was fought with other believers, in the trenches and the aid of prayer and the Holy Spirit and with faith that locked together and prayed as one voice. Believers committed to this level do not walk away because the prayers they pray will not let them walk away.

Today's church, mostly we are all on our own, or looking for help and Jesus is our only help and praise God He is helping us. But it seems we are defeated very easily. The average of people who accept Christ in the evangelical altar calls in Protestant American churches who are in church a year later, is only about 7 or 8%-- I believe - maybe less. In other parts of the world where God is moving prayer dedicated prayer together where people die and starve every day, and really need to pray, the average staying in the church approaches 80% -- this is so in many places in South America and Africa.

So perhaps only God knows what this fine line is, of unbelief and of course the unbeliever, certainly there are also those whose legalistic stance was all that ever bound them to the religion of Christianity-a delusion of right and wrong, as neurosis, as all neurosis is a problem of guilt, falling on the sword of the knowledge of good and evil and missing the aspect and relationship of love-eating from the wrong tree, and thinking the process of salvation is in the good and evil struggle of works-when in fact the process of salvation is in the grace and goodness at the Tree Of Life which requires the faith of a child-and the patience to wait upon God-Americans in the Kingdom are the worst, the enemy has only but to kick start this process of good v. evil and at once in the middle of a process the unsuspecting pilgrim is led off by a demon and down a road of unbelief in anything, other than the Book of the Lord, or misplaced faith, in faith, while the Lord of the Book, Who is the object of faith gets passed by and is waiting with open arms and the doorstep of faith, or the other unsuspecting pilgrim is led off by another demon whose convinced him into thinking he's escaping hypocrisy and back into the world, either way the enemy finds the room swept clean and brings back seven demons worse than the first.. Which of these has salvation? The sword swallowing Legalist, who is so blind to what is going on he missed the presence of God standing in front of him, "Suddenly, Jesus himself came along and joined them and began walking beside them.

16 But they didn't know who he was, because God kept them from recognizing him.
17 "You seem to be in a deep discussion about something," he said. "What are you so concerned about?" They stopped short, sadness written across their faces. Luke 24:15-17 (NLT)

Or the hedonist Christian? Who knows there is something bigger than what he's doing, but doesn't know what to do with what he's got-because he's caught up in the blindness of sin, and will not wait upon God because of the world dragging him back. "Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The plants sprang up quickly, 6 but they soon wilted beneath the hot sun and died because the roots had no nourishment in the shallow soil. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that shot up and choked out the tender blades. Matt 13:5-7 (NLT)

We can't answer this very well. There is shallow soil all around. There are choking thorn, all around. But save we know at the cross, unbelief can be repented of up to the very last minute of life here on this planet ("the stage where the road passes over the rim of our world"). But I do believe in the end times there will be a Holy remedy to this and the Lord will move, and Praise Him, He is moving now, in a manner that offers a line out of the shipwrecked water and back into a boat with the Lord. I do know that largely the Church is not doing a good job of delivering people out of their sin. I know I was thrown my own life line five years ago, but when I took hold I had to beg for discipleship-and deliverance came not as matter of course but when the Lord led me to where I could get it. My own church didn't have a clue. But others are getting life lines and deliverance as well, so the answer may be one of an antinomy. It is true that you can/can not lose your salvation. But you can lose your way with it in a manner that leaves you out of the Kingdom (and eventually we all run out of time), in either legalism or unbelief, but isn't it interesting that legalism may well be unbelief? The trouble is, that we are in time and space, and not yet in the dimension with our precious Lord, save those precious moments with Him when we are transcended with Him into the Kingdom in our midst, our God, Father God, sweet loving Jesus who comes to the planet in space and time to gather us, gather us to Himself, gather us to the Holy spirit, Who moves across the waters of humanity, moving obstacles to the truth of Christ Jesus, which often as not is ourselves, "..yet it [Christianity] leads you on, out of all that into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke." Often here there is really nothing to laugh about. We should be laughing more.

James Kelly

Phil. 2:12,13.---' Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.'

'Work out your own salvation.' The thing is not done in a minute or in a year. The growth of character is a slow process. And it is a process which calls for effort and self-discipline. When we think what it means to work out our own salvation, to make ourselves fit for the near Presence of God, to get rid of the impulses and desires which maintain us in separation from Him, we cannot but feel some fear and trembling; we cannot but mourn the weakness and half-heartedness of our efforts, and our endless readiness to put of any decisive action. And it is then that we begin to realize the advantage of our dependence and the assurance of our dependence and the assurance that it gives us of attaining our end. In the world of daily experience we are surrounded by other people, whose ideas we share, and whose standards govern us consciously or unconsciously. It is in the spiritual order that we have to face real loneliness; when we have to bring our thoughts and actions to the standard not of this or that group of persons, but of a system which may reconstruct all our scale of values. We read in the Gospels that it is better to lose the whole world than our own soul; that we cannot be sure of attaining what we desire without being ready to give up all nearer objects of our interests; we have to settle for ourselves what sacrifices we ought to make, and to learn through the events of life what is really good and bad for us. It is an easy business to stifle the problem, and preach a negative asceticism. But what if we are expected to do something in the world, and to make our contribution to its movement? Mere shrinking from action will then condemn us as hopelessly as positive wickedness. We cannot avoid the difficulty; we have to settle what we ought and ought not to do. How can we face such a task without God?---with limited knowledge, and imperfect spiritual apprehension and hesitating will? That is where St. Paul's unperplexed view of the circumstances help us. We are not alone. Dependence upon God is one of the first conditions of working out our own salvation.

Our first and most important religious act is the signing of dependence. We need to recognize our relation to God, to see that He is the source of all good, and that without Him we can do nothing. But we are not to be mystics, folding our hands and leaving everything to God. He has made us reasoning and voluntary beings, and when He works in us, He only puts us in more complete possession of our powers of intellect and will. Our declaration of dependence needs to be followed by a declaration of independence. We must see to it that we become co-workers with God and not mere puppets moved by the Divine fingers. The true Christian is more of a man than he ever was before, and while God works in him, he is also to work out his own salvation.

And, secondly, is not this a very real danger: that to the Divine prompting we shall make only an emotional and not a volitional response? There is a stir of feeling, of emotion, but the will is not stirred to action. We do not live out in everyday life the high truth which came to us in some moment of clearer vision, on the dusty plain forgetting the inspiration of the mountain top. This is a special danger of our day. We so crowd our lives with a thousand interests that we leave ourselves little time to be quiet. But it is in the quiet hour that the will gathers force, turning into action the ideals of which we have caught a glimpse. Always in religion there is the peril of an emotionalism unrelated to conduct. But the glow fades away: we are no better than we were; no, we are worse than we were, because we have refused to act upon the Divine voice heard or vision seen. We have to work out our own salvation; and working is not believing sentiment.

Once more: how often the spirit of exploration is wanting. We do not treat the life of religion as an adventure, a quest in which we are to discover as much of Divine truth as we can. Yet the hints His Spirit gives are prophecies of clearer revelation to come. If last year He showed us new glimpses of Himself, this year He can show us yet more, but only if we seek and want to find. The shining of the light on the Damascus road became to St. Paul a heavenly goad urging and impelling him to prove the richness of a Savior's love. All his life was a quest and a search, and every day brought him its assurance that his quest was realized and not in vain. We miss so much, because we will not explore the riches of God.

In Christ, Timothy.

Hi all,

I confess I come here sometimes and run off again, feeling such a duffer - you all write so beautifully and put things so well it makes me want to hide my dimness. Nevertheless I'm going to put this here and risk all because I know that, as discussed, recognizing personal weakness is an essential fortunately for me!

I woke up yesterday in the early hours thinking about the promised land and when the spies went out to explore. Your comment Timothy "How often the spirit of exploration is wanting" reminded me because I was thinking about Caleb, of whom God said, Numbers 14:24 "But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.", and how it relates to the salvation question. Only this time I wasn't thinking about the promised land being salvation or not, not a place to arrive at where it is all done, but a place to arrive at where God is doing it all. What seemed most prominent was the difference between Caleb's attitude (come on, let's go for it - nothing to fear because God is with us) and the rest "we were in our own sight as grasshoppers" eaten up with fear. Now I am just about the most scarediest person you might ever meet in the natural and can invent worries when there are none, so in that situation I cant pretend I would have faced the dangers. But there is an area in modern times that we in the church are reluctant to go into, and that is in love. Not just the superficial or sentimental that is displayed, but the kind of love that trusts and opens up and cries and gives and bears long and loves the "least" and labours one for another. I think we all want to do it, to reach out, but inevitably in the process of reaching out we leave ourselves vulnerable because we find we need to receive it too. So instead of getting out there and exploring it properly, we explore it in terms of what we have to give in surplus, in fear that someone will require of our selves something that will expose us to the needy, as needy too. I notice that the ones who are so good at giving love seem to be the ones who have risked most and had their hearts not only broken but trampled underfoot and kicked into the hedge, and who can still say "The Lord knows what He is doing with me".

The thing is, if we haven't got that love between us that God requires, the gifts of the Spirit will not be acceptable, as in Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." We need not only the gifts, but the fruit, which is borne only by being dependant on God and brave enough to let Him "prune" us where He will. Are we willing? It's a bit scary, but God is with us. It is the difference between bearing fruit on our own personal branch, and bearing God's fruit, too large for one man to carry so it goes on a pole between brethren like those at the brook Eshcol.

Sending love from Mary

I mentioned a while back that God never hated anyone but then it came to my mind that God hated Esau. Esau sold His birthright so that he could eat well. Can you imagine Christians so into themselves that they would sell our new birth in Jesus to live well? Many do, or maybe they never had that new birth at all and just think they do. Edomites, the inheritors of Esau were cursed into oblivion, if they tried to build anew, it would be torn down, "the people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." I cannot say that the Lord deals with us this way but judgment is coming and I do not ever want to be in that position, do you? But what of the people that are?

One thing that we do know is that many are called but few are chosen. The Lord will say to many in the last day that He did not know them, even those that have been calling Him Lord and had done mighty works and cast out devils. Did they lose their salvation or were they ever saved at all? Because Jesus went to the cross, does that mean that we do not? We are told to take up our cross daily, yes it is a day to day thing and we are to choose life, it is not ours by right or from how good we are, it is a gift in response to a spiritual call. Faith in Jesus means that you believe what He said to do, not simply in believing in what the church says about Jesus. There is the historical Jesus and there is the spiritual Jesus. He is at the door of our hearts, He comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not merely mental ascent as if these people are saved by thinking themselves so, it is not a question of losing your salvation here, it is a question of bringing dead Christians to life.

The outer court of the temple is for all in the body of Christ, but there are hateful things in the outer court. Is that good enough for us? What is our responsibility in Christ? It is to walk in the power of His Holy Spirit, that much is certain, that is the holy place. And to seek the lost. It is not in our own works but through the power of His grace and walking in His Spirit. Can we do that? If not, maybe there is no salvation for you to lose. These are only rhetorical questions because we should already have confidence in our relationship with Him but many will be disappointed in that day.


Re: Completed Israel

Hello Jay,
I believe one of the keys in seeing Judah embrace Yeshua as Messiah is for we, the Church, to humble ourselves and publicly repent on behalf of our hatred attitudes towards the Jewish people. For those of us who know our Church history, it's not anything to be proud of concerning this issue.

The early church was very Jewish, but then became Romanized and Hellenized. Our Hebraic roots were severed. What a shame. As a result, so much of the gospel as we know it today is not the gospel that Jesus taught. Due to our extreme allegorical methods of scripture interpretation, we've lost the literal meanings. Without first applying the literal application of the Word, we can make it say just about anything we want. As we begin to rediscover the Word through a Hebraic understanding (from which it was written), then we will begin to see the gospel that Jesus taught. Then we will begin to see Judah through the eyes of the Father. The blindness has been two-fold.


Shalom & Howdy J,

Basically I can agree with most of your Mammon message. Yes, how hard it is for the wealthy to enter the kingdom (For they have time and means to sin almost whenever they want.) Yet today I must also include our American middle classes, for like the rich of Yehoshua's day today's middle classes- also have time, enough $ & more then enough to eat (Obeese) and thus are in the great position NEVER to arrive at the knowledge o the truth just like the wealthy 2000 years ago!

Yes, poor churches do give more (percentage-wise!) or at least that has been my experience on individual occasions.

Give things away to be dependent upon man or God? Been there done that yet it is written somewhere- 'Be dependent upon no man' And this is my view today for myself. For in another place King David wrote, 'It is better to fall into the hands of the Lord than man'. You should be dependent upon the Father, but like a father He expects you to walk someday too!

Lastly, re: the Laodician church- personally I do not interpret the seven churches as 'ages' o the church (Even though there is a way of seeing it that way as well.) For Phile. (Rev. 3:7) escapes the 'wrath' and that only comes in the 'last days'!

OK, gotta run,

Bless you through Christ Jesus,

Al Lasaras


Hi Al,

I should have worded the Laodicean age differently, you are not the only one that mentioned it. I agree with you that all seven churches are still with us and we should "strengthen what remains." But I also believe that each light in the candlestick or star among the seven, or churches of Asia, however you put it, have all come throughout history at different times. The Ephesian church began and is the love that we are to be restored to, the martyred church was to have tribulation ten days, it is no co-incidence that history records ten persecutions early on. The Nicolaitan system may still remain but was an early aberration. The seat of satan is certainly the papacy that arose for antipas represents the period of time during the reformation but yet the controversy continues. Any church may want to look toward their own denomination as the church of Philadelphia but is is generally interpreted as the time of the Great Awakening or the missionary church. The mistake that many make is to say that when one age began the previous one ended, the scriptures themselves prove this not true and they will be here when the Lord comes. I think that this is the way that you mention can be seen as.

But alas, you are right in that the middle class is part of that rich church. So much so that they do not even think of themselves as rich. This is part of the delusion to get themselves even richer. Poor, rich and super rich. Saul Alinsky recognized the have and have-nots and included one more, the have a little, want mores. It all comes down with pride and a church that sees economic prosperity and earthly riches as a sign of God's favor. Sorry, wrong God.


The scriptures emphatically teach us that God, loves righteousness, and hates sin, the righteousness God loves, is that of His son Jesus,and to those of us, He has imputed that righteousness unto. sinful, mankind in general, does not come under that righteousness, unless God Himself, chooses according to His will, and pleasure to impute it unto them. The early Saints did distribute material things, to the body of believers, but not to people in general, scriptures do not support a generalized redistribution of wealth. The sin God hates is that of practicing any religious system, outside of that taught by the Lord himself, and the apostles. Do not give your love unto the dogs(unbelievers) or cast your pearls before the swine(unbelievers) lest they will turn and rend you.( hate you in spite of your charity, and even more, because of your faith in Jesus, and His gospel). Jesus even said, do not be concerned with the poor (in general) because we will have them with us always. meaning what a poor sinner needs is not more money, food, clothing, housing, etc. but the true gospel, and salvation, then all these things will be added unto them, God takes care of His own, but the devil does a poor job of taking care of his own. The love of money is the root of all evil, even the money of the wealthy, that is envied, and desired, by the poor unbeliever.

clifton womack


Jay, after reading the end of your message, i feel compelled to write you again, to tell you that, if the Most High and Sovereign God, has predestined a person, before the foundation, of the earth,to be among His elect, without, being yet born, and having done any good nor evil, that person will be kept from losing his salvation, or being brought under condemnation FOREVER, by the HOLY SPIRIT, to dispute this doctrine, one would have to dispute the entire N.t., and spend the rest of their earthly life doing so. the only people that believe they can lose their salvation, are those that believe the false doctrine of FREE WILL, God is sovereign, and in control, of salvation, certainly not reprobate man. We ( members of the body of the elect) are saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and not our own righteousness, because we dont have any of our own to begin with. regenerate believers, are under the IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS of JESUS, and not our own.


Hi Clifton,

Could you please expand a little more on this "false doctrine of FREE WILL" that you mention for me please.


(This was not replied to but I did find past messages below from Clifton that did address the question)


Jay i would like to ask you a few quick questions. 1...Do you believe Jesus died for all of mankind? 2 ... do you believe it is ever possible for a believer to believe a false gospel? 3... Do you believe it is possible for a believer to temporarily believe a false gospel? How do you interpret eph 2:8,9? 4... Do you believe it is ever possible for a true believer to lose his salvation? 5... Do you believe God is sovereign and in control of man, or vice versa? thank you for your time in answering this message. ......

which catholic order are you a member of? Are you a Jesuit, or do you believe mother theresa got an automatic trip to the pearly gates? when I was in the arminian heresy over twenty five years ago, it was well known throughout evangelical christianity, that the latter rain ministry was a false cult. I was very surprised to find that you heretics are still around after all this time, Oh well I suppose satan takes care of his own.

clifton womack


Went back and got that old message from you above, thanks Cliff for making things so clear for us. Jesus takes care of His own also, we understand that we will be known by our love for each other. I can only suggest to you that you take advantage of the free will that we have to choose life and love. It is much better than following Calvin.

On the subject of free will: since I have a choice, I choose life.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: Proverbs 1:29

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24: 15

Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good. Job 34:4

Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways. Proverbs 3:31

Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Isaiah 7:15-16

But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. Phillipians 1:22

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.... Genesis 1:27a

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