Jesus Brings Division, Not Peace
October 4th, 2010
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." Luke 12:51-53.
October 4th, 2010
Hello Latter Rain List... It's been a long time.
I received the opportunity to give the message at my church a bit ago and thought I would share it. This is pared down, you can hear the audio or read the full text.
The scripture tells of Jesus bringing division, not peace. What was divisive was that Jesus brought the gospel of the Kingdom through the spirit of truth and there has always been a spiritual battle between truth and error; people take sides. John the Baptist and Jesus both taught that entrance into the Kingdom demands repentance. Paul's admonition to Timothy was to rightly divide the word of truth. The truth, or the word of God, is the sword of the spirit. We as Christians are part of God's Kingdom in Heaven but God's Kingdom on earth is divided. As we, as a church, accept more of the whole truth instead of dividing into parts of it, the closer we are to unity.
Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:11 that the Lord has given us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers... until we ALL come into the unity of the faith. When Paul says all, he is referring to the ones that have been called, the spiritual remnant called out to restore the temple of the Lord. Obviously we haven't come to that point yet. Maybe some of us have. What I hear is give me the love of God and the grace of Christ but don't give me any of that Holy Ghost stuff. Accepting the Holy Spirit and the truth given in the gospel is coming into the light, our sins are made manifest. That takes the kind of humility that most people don't have, the Holy Spirit becomes superfluous, unnecessary to walk the Christian life.
Obviously the poor of this world need our help and the jobless problem stems from the top, not the bottom. What they need is a message of hope. Without a revolutionary change in faith and society, except for a few, they have no hope of a better life. Their hope has been stifled by filthy lucre, money, unfettered greed, the worship of the idol of mammon. The love of money as the root of all evil is the reason that the rich are rich and the poor are poor. End time prophetic scripture suggests that when Jesus comes back, the rich will be overthrown but what of churches that promote the prosperity doctrine, seed faith giving, promising partnership in the Kingdom if you send money to this church or that ministry. They say that the poor are poor because they don't have the blessings of God while the rich are rich because they have been given God's favor. Too bad about the economy but praise the Lord, God is in control. The truth is that the economy went south because no one was in control.
Extremists are in the legalist camp on one side and the licentious crowd on the other, this is a polarization that should not exist between reasonable people. Which brings us to the example of liberals and conservatives...Oh my Lord. that's a good one. Liberal and conservative are both relative words depending on the issue. If we are so off center liberal that even the word is corrupted to mean licentious and lascivious and we deny the foundational truths of the church and the gospel, or if we are so off center conservative that we deny liberality, then we are a crippled and a corrupt church. No matter what side we are on, the prophecy of Hosea is true for today: "God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
Our power is perfected in weakness. That makes no sense at all to the carnal mind, but to those that humble themselves and admit to their own weaknesses, it is the open door into the Kingdom of God and the message of the gospel. Don't look at me, I have more faults than a California earthquake map. Holiness is the key but that can be real elusive. It takes denying yourself, picking up the cross and being led by the spirit.
Pride cripples the gospel of the Kingdom, arrogance and spiritual pride sets people against one another by taking sides. National pride starts wars in the name of their God. There are weaknesses in all branches of the church; the restoration of the first love and unity of the spirit is the plumb-line. Outside of that plumb-line is division. We are to skip all the nonsense and bridge the foundations that have already been laid for us in the early church and the progressive revelation of God throughout. We are not ONE with Jesus until we are ONE with His body.
I am limited to space right now, there is no limit to examples. I want to challenge you. The next time you are tempted to take sides on a controversial issue that is divisive, remember these things.
Any comments are welcome. I would like to add that if we are truly serious about unity in dialogue, we should act on it. I propose setting up an online forum for discussion and distribution to any one interested. Please get back to me.
Appreciate your thoughts, but I'm not sure politics is the answer. I see it as a question with politics of what form of capitalism do you want to subscribe to and I think the rich people and the corporations have way too much influence whichever party is voted in. I think the problems are way deeper than the politicians even recognize or begin to offer solutions to. Before we get anything like a free society we need people to understand that freedom is a lot more than democracy or casting one vote into a ballot box once in a while. We have probably some of the most controlled societies in existence in fact, but it's not overt, the control is exercised through the money system. And it looks like in that respect America is definitely on the fast track to fascism.
It's not going to be changed by the politicians because the whole system is based upon the flesh and not the Holy Spirit. If we want to truly change society we will have to show that we as Christians can LIVE an alternative reality and right now the religious systems play the harlot with the world system and are not about to change any time soon. The world system is a system that can't change itself until it recognizes the root problem is a need for repentance, not merely a change of the rules.
The problem that human nature has today is that it cannot and will not share and has therefore set up a monetary system that holds everyone hostage and benefits only a few, but at the same time that system has mathematical limitations. You cannot get infinite growth in a world with finite resources and you cannot therefore sustain a money system based upon debt that requires that. Hence we see the system moving inexorably towards systemic collapse and the only possible mathematically sustainable solution (voluntary cooperation and sharing from the heart) is not seen as a realistic option. The only workable solutions have been rejected by the world and the churches in the main.
I know that from my own experiences, hence it's time to get out of the system with those who can see it. The system isn't going to reform or change to the degree necessary and almost everything we are led to believe about our world can be shown to be based upon a small period of history where we used machines to replace labour using finite fossil fuels and financed through debt and cheap third world labour. And the pyramid scheme is coming to its mathematical end whilst mainstream society labours under the assumption that intelligence will defeat the mathematics. It won't, because it's a resource problem, not an intelligence problem and the problems lie in human nature and working to physical and not spiritual realities,
Blessings in Jesus,
Sometimes a long period of time is in order before I ever get inspired enough to write to the Latter Rain List. In this case, history needed to unfold a bit before I could give a true answer to the excellent response you have given. As it stands now, I agree with you - I am not sure politics is the answer either. Six months ago, it was a different story.
Progressives in this country elected our President on a peace platform, everyone knows how that is going and he will not get much respect on the Afghanistan front or in his continued occupation of Iraq. He says he wants to put those to an end, time will tell. Nor will he gain respect in the way that trillions of dollars is being poured into the elitist black hole, except from the super rich. Obama promised change and got our hopes up, you are right in that it is just another form of the same tired old capitalism.
Democracy has to be more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. I expected better but that is not to say that I would have done anything differently in my condemnation of Republican deregulation and militarism. At least Obama is running the country instead of ruining it. Bush alienated everyone except those that believed the deceptions, Obama is trying to repair the bridges that Bush tore down. For those that deplore economic democracy and social justice, it is a sham. For those that want peace in the world, it is a welcome message but there is still a lot of skepticism, since as you say, we are on a fast track to fascism. Maybe you have heard it before, Bush ran the country into the ground and Obama hit the ground running. Unfortunately, it is Washington as usual.
At any rate, your mathematical limitations equation is spot on, Babylon will fall as capitalism falls but as long as these Bush style bailouts continue, the rich will stay rich at the expense of the rest of us. Obama is doing it to free up more credit, what we need is more jobs, not more debt. Most people do not want the world economy to be in the shape that it is in but only a few of us here truly realize that capitalist greed is the evil force that brought it down. You and I agree on that, praise the Lord. In the meantime, there is an opportunity to bring revival in the midst of all this apostasy and for a time, at least, stay the hand of God in bringing judgment.
Perhaps you have heard of the scripture verses that speak of "The Times of the Gentiles." I feel that I must deal with that next but not sure how to proceed.
Government is good
I'm the one in the past that emailed you about the latter rain or revival not happening until much later, possibly during the trib. And that we are in apostasy now.
You are doing a great job, and I enjoy getting your emails. Don't let any of the negative emails that you receive get to you. People can say this or that regarding the events of the world, and who's running the country, or which politician or candidate can do whatever or anything. People have it all wrong. None of these leaders can change anything or make it better. This is the world, there will never ever be any changes in the world for the better, it will only get worse. It says it in the bible. We cannot change anyones mind, regarding anyone or anything making it better. Because it won't happen.
We believers are being tested everyday, by govts, the adversary planting negative things in our mind, and the adversary uses other people on us as well. The Lord is seeing how we use our faith, and that we continue to love him. I see other believers saying the church going to grow, there's a revival coming. I don't see all that. I see worse. I see believers becoming unbelievers. The evil is getting worse. The generation I grew up, we respected our elders. Where I live now, I am totally shocked at the young ones so out of control. Someone told me a couple of weeks ago, their grandchild told them, that he was an as*****. One of my own granddaughters has disowned me because, I'm greedy and selfish because I don't give out free homes, free money and etc. I myself live in low housing, with medical problems, and they want me to support them. And their parents have jobs.
Jay, the only thing that can help this world, and stop all this nonsense on this earth, is the second coming of Jesus. When I think of that it brings happiness inside of me. I have thought many times about the 1,000 reign of Jesus and the purpose of satan being release for a short season.
I really feel, and maybe wrong, that during this time, Jesus and his followers will be teaching the unbelievers the truth. The bible does say that satan has deceived the nations. Its possible, our lost loved ones will have a second chance.
Thank you for listening to me.
Good to read your post. This really isn't a reply to just this post but to things that have been on my mind. There have been times that I wanted to hang on to my view so badly that I became obnoxious about it. Holding onto the true gospel means I must allow the Holy Spirit to give me answers to others when asked about a situation by answering with grace.
This is something I have been striving to do. I seem long in the learning process. Politics and church issues are so similar in that they both bring such an array of emotions all persons usually striving to bring forth "their" opinion before searching God's will.
I have tried to be supportive on this board to others and noticed no reply to my comments which I have tried to be positive about with exception to the health insurance issue Mary brought up weeks ago.
We all go through many disappointments with church, family, government, jobs, the list goes on forever. Truthfully, I grow weary of listening to so much with my natural ears and I am growing increasingly aware of NEEDING to have ears opened to the Holy Spirit.
The church I attend is so different from the ones the folks on this board are familiar with. It is not perfect and I too have a few issues with some of their agenda. What I have been learning though is not to tolerate the gray areas but to pray and pray and pray again and wait on the Lord. If the prayer is just my wanting MY way it falls to the ground. If my prayer is truly what God desires then I see changes. They are slow and never when I think they should come about but the changes do come. I am impatient but God is not.
I love learning from all the members here. I do wish however we would all remember grace must abound and ask the Lord for His ability to see man's hearts and not to so readily judge. I am guilty of judging. All last year and this the Lord has been telling me when I look upon a brother or sister to look first in the eyes of Jesus and then see them as He does.
Negativism plagued me for many years. Replacing that with God's grace is slow. God bless you Jay and everyone else on this board.
IN HIS GRACE,
2Cor.12:9 - My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.
We are in much agreement about politics and church issues being so similar, especially in going to God on these matters. Too many are motivated by self interest, the denial of the rights of others and outright fear. I know that this doesn't set well with anyone who believes that politics doesn't matter and I get a lot of criticism when I teach otherwise but like I said, how we vote reveals a lot about what spirit motivates us.
About getting replies to your post, this is the latter rain list, not the lightship, so you won't get any reply but this one. Doesn't matter, what does matter is that you speak what you feel is the Lord telling you and you do that better than most anyone I know. Praying and waiting on the Lord is also something most Christians never get into the habit of. Most are persuaded by their church or denomination and easily get swayed by the doctrines of demons. Of course, I can point to myself as being a great procrastinator but somehow, sooner or later, the Lord gets my attention when it comes to doing His will. I am a lover of the truth and pray that I can see through the falsehoods that have divided us.
Negativism has plagued me for many years also. It is easy to point our fingers at others, not so easy to accept them regardless of what they believe. Rejecting the extreme beliefs and yet accepting the person is very important in our spiritual walk. One of my negativism right now is in thinking that I can change any one's views by the things that I write. Maybe I am wasting my time, I either have people disagree with me or disagree according to what they already believe one way or another. The idea that I am spinning my wheels goes through my mind every once in a while but I keep on going as if it doesn't bother me. Hard to know.
Thanks for the thoughts,
You spoke of perhaps wasting your time writing. I dont think you are wasting your time in trying to help people find a way that is unlike their own belief system and perhaps guiding them to a place where they will really ask if they are being led by the Spirit of God.
When I wrote that response to your letter I did send a copy to the lighthouse because I wanted to see what the folks would have to say. Mary did not understand what I meant when I stated there weren't many responses to my replies. She pretty much rebuked my immature attitude of wanting to be noticed or something to the like. I was not looking for pats on the back in the least.
I was trying in my feeble way to provoke someone to think about the replies that are sent are usually only to negative statements. Truthfully, I do learn from these dear folks and I am not an equal to their intelligence, obviously. It is difficult to express my thoughts in such clear and consise manners as I see on the lighthouse board. I just write in simple thoughts after I consider what I feel is in my heart from the Lord.
Truthfully, in my present church I ponder a few things but I have learned to slow down my opinion and pray more and wait to see what the Lord wants me to do. No church in my opinion will ever meet all our needs nor be perfect in our sights. That is what I tried to convey to others. How can we judge so harshly when all the sin is not out of our hearts yet? Of course I am not speaking of obvious sin amoung members or pastors ect.
I have so much learning of my own to do and at 51 I am urked at myself for being so slow to hear what the Spirit of the Lord would say to me. Anyway, keep writing Jay, keep trying to reach others and help them to grow in grace if nothing else. I'll be watching for your posts.......
IN HIS GRACE,
2Cor.12:9 - My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.
This is long in coming but I am going through some life changes right now, doors are closing while others are opening. I have had to sever ties with dozens of people, it is as if the pendulum of my life is being swung into another course. Same old Jay with the same old teaching, it is only that my emphasis have come around full circle and I will be getting back to my roots of holiness, the prophetic and the second work of the spirit. That has of course been prompted by world affairs of late. I no longer feel that I must speak out against Christians that worship the same god that told George Bush to invade Iraq yet I am still compelled to speak out against the false god of materialism, militarism and the licentious behavior of those that would bring lasciviousness into the Body of Christ out of a misplaced attitude of love and tolerance. Old wineskins are trying to hold the new wine and I believe that God is doing a mighty work in the churches today toward restoration and progressive revelation in exposing the false church from both extremes.
You know me especially from the lightship where I recently spoke out against the false authority of being a prophet over others and the inability to bear witness in the spirit. That is hard for anyone, including me but my message is still the same, love, tolerance, forgiving others and asking forgiveness for ourselves. Pride keeps people from hearing rightly. People would rather lash out in vengeance toward the church when they are hurt, especially if they cannot admit their own faults. I can see the negatives and false authority and still love them regardless but if I would be true to myself and to them, expose the falseness. I am sometimes too harsh, I have a tendency to browbeat if I feel that I am not getting through and then they misunderstand my true intentions. When we write in an e-mail setting, the absence of voice inflections confuse some. You can write a nice letter that if otherwise spoken in a nice and friendly tone could be thought of as mean when read.
I am spending a lot of time in prayer and impatient for the answers, hard to wait.
I agree with you Jay. I pray our Lord preserves this country. Time will tell. It rests in the hearts of men...
Take care, my friend. May our Beloved hold you close in the shadow of His wing.
Anybody allowing partial birth abortions has no part in the Kingdom and does not have a relationship with my Father...Period
I do make that judgement...
the bible say the commandment
thou shall not kill...
so that is my choice to obey the word of god...
Let the chips fall where thy may. Christ is in control.HE is not liberal when it comes to sin.
I don't even follow the contenders in the race much as they are just pawns in God's hands and are both doomed to play out what God already knows will happen so what difference does it all make in the end.
I will seek the Lord and there I will place my hope.
You say a lot in just a couple of sentences. It is time for me to get back with these discussions and I have to say that your answer here has inspired me more than the others. Not a lot of others by the way, it seems that moderation is a subject that does not provoke much of a response. I have to speak in extremes, I suppose, to incite any meaningful dialogue that leads to unity.
I can agree with the things that you say - up to a point. It is that point, I hope that we can discuss in a fashion worthy of the latter rain list.
First of all, the chips as you say, may fall where thy may but it is my contention that we have God given abilities and the responsibility to channel those chips toward the will of God. It is in Christ being in control where my next discussion wants to go and I believe that He is only in control as far as we give Him control in our personal lives. You have taken a Calvinist viewpoint not uncommon. I believe in free will and predestination both being taught in the Bible, so I take neither side of that schism. I do not know your position on these things but I can only suppose that you have confused pre-destination with the foreknowledge of God.
As to Jesus not being liberal when it comes to sin, I have to emphatically disagree. Have you never read the passages in John 8 about the woman caught in adultery? When she was brought to Jesus, it was the conservative scribes and Pharisees that wanted to stone her according to the law of Moses. Jesus told her that He did not condemn her and for her to go and sin no more. That was a liberal act of love for her and an appeal to repentance, even though she was a sinner. Not to fault you for it, you have been taught the wrong definition of what liberal really means by people without understanding.
To give you a prime example in our day, extend these Pharisaical, conservative, Puritan attitudes of so-called Christians, and we see why the United States has the highest prison population of any country in the world. We do not have a criminal justice system here, it is a criminal injustice system. Naive people think that a person accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. Not so, if you are poor. To have a Public Defender who is paid by the court is not to have an advocate that fights for your rights, they make deals with the District Attorney every time. A person accused of a crime, even if he/she is innocent is forced to plea bargain a lesser sentence to avoid higher one. The D.A. is not concerned about a person's guilt or innocence, only in a conviction and the judges today for the most part, have no say when a guilty plea is the only recourse a person has. Prisons are not correctional, they are penal. The vast majority of those incarcerated will come out worse than they went in. That is not justice, liberality is a God given gift only for the spiritually minded.
Politicians of today are not pawns in the Lord's hands, they conform to an ungodly world system. We cannot blame God for the bad economy that we face, we can only blame a system that has allowed greed and corruption to have its way in the minds of covetous people who are the ones actually in control. We cannot blame God for these wars, I know that a lot of people do, but it is deception from the enemies of the Prince of Peace and the false prophets that teach these delusions to unspiritual people with itching ears to hear self interest, self absorbed, vengeful, fearful, materialistic false doctrine. I can only advise that you evaluate your own self and re-evaluate what you have been taught. Just because God knows the beginning and the end does not make Him the author of the world's sins. Like I say, it is a Calvinist viewpoint and an error that takes away from the fact that we were created in His image and given the grace to do His perfect will and not be conformed to an evil generation.
Since we both seek the Lord and place our hope in Him, get back to me if you like,
Yours in Jesus,
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