The King of Babylon

January 9th, 2006

Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none. Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumour shall be upon rumour; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients. The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 7:25-27.

Some confuse the apostasy with Babylon, there will also be great harvest but not in the way that so many are putting their hope and talents into. We believe that we are in the last days and God will reveal to His prophets the identity of Babylon before it is too late. The Day of Trouble is coming, we are in the beginnings of sorrows. It is very important to recognize this present world system for what it is. We are told to get out of Babylon, not reform nor forgive her, only escape or judgment. Babylon will fall and the Antichrist system must be revealed before the time of harvest, now is the time for revival.

George W. Bush worships the image of the Beast, to worship the same god is to take the mark. Some time ago, I began a dialogue of whether or not Bush is the Antichrist. He seems too stupid to be the Antichrist, others may think that he is just stupid enough. You need to know that we are in the last days of the last days, in the midst of an end-time Babylon church that supports the Antichrist system and George Bush is the reigning King of Babylon. I shake my head and wonder to think of a worse candidate for the man of perdition. Jesus and His works are elsewhere today.

We have been taught that the Queen of the South will arise in our generation to denounce the oppression of the North. The North will make that fatal strike and be crushed. Until then, the Lord is making ready, this is the wisdom of present truth. The South speaks of resisting privatizations, denouncing IMF interference of resources and the World Bank loans as bribery. Freedom does not come from the elements seeking to dominate the South but in eliminating their own poverty. The Lord is proclaiming the year of Jubilee for countries better off without the exploitation and corporate greed of the North.

If you have believed the words of Bush, then you believe his lies and God has given you over to a strong delusion. As he heads the world closer to Armageddon, Christians need to make a choice who they are serving, the God of the gospels or the god of the present world system. Bush is the antithesis of Jesus. Read the Sermon on the mount and compare them. Stupid pastors and prophets with their own vision leading the church into total darkness. They don't want to get it, they compromised and went into the belly of the beast where they have stayed prophesying comfort and encouragement. There is a silent hush among many true prophets and a pretentious outcry from the false ones.

Today is the day of restoration.

Read on for the discussions from last time. Good dialogue. Thanks.


Hi Jay,

Every prophet has confidence that his words come from the Lord. He does not know how he knows. He only knows he know. And if this is true he needs to announce it to the world.

Then Hananiah the prophet took the yoke from off the prophet Jeremiah's neck, and brake it. And Hananiah spake in the presence of all the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Even so will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all nations within the space of two full years. And the prophet Jeremiah went his way. Then the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah the prophet, after that Hananiah the prophet had broken the yoke from off the neck of the prophet Jeremiah, saying, Go and tell Hananiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast broken the yokes of wood; but thou shalt make for them yokes of iron. Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet, Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD. So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month. Jeremiah 28:10-17

Only time shows who is right and who is wrong.

Apart from that, it is interesting when Bush´s supporters claim that Kerry approves baby killing. I am totally opposite to abortion and gay marriage. But laws that allow it give the freedom to choose, do not force any one to do it.

On the other hand, a bomb falling on the head give no choice but die. How many children died in the war without choice? Or, how many are dying in the world because of famine, caused many times by the agriculture subsidies in USA and Europe, or lack of world distribution policy, just to mention two points. And your country supports all these. Is this baby killing too?

Poor countries are paying billions of dollars in interests to the monetary system. There are Iraq's equivalent corrupted and murderous government all over the world, but poor countries, with no oil at all, that are manipulated and kept in power by the system leaded by USA. Is this baby killing? What are the positions of the two candidates and of christians that support them ?

Marcos Valentin F. Martins - Brasil
Tudo pelo Rei Jesus

Hi Marcos,

Been a long time, glad to hear from you again. This is exactly the way the discussion should go, thanks for being a waymaker.

These things you mention are where I am going with a sins of Babylon writing. This is the scripture of Ezekiel 16:49 "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."

Homosexuality isn't even mentioned there. I agree with you too. I am against abortion and homosexuality, yet still have a responsibility to respect other people's rights.

The bombs you mention, children dying, famine, a lot of that is in the name of Bush. I did some research on the farm subsidies last spring and what it did to the independent farmers in America and now around the world. Millions of people are suffering from the bad choices from this administration. Yes, it is baby killing. I read that Bush was reversing his policy on subsidies a while back and I thought maybe I was wrong about him but no, he changed his mind again. Somebody got to him, would like to have been a fly on the wall for that discussion.

For years now I have been saying that there will be a loan default in third world countries. The Jubilee act would do that but only in the poorest parts. Its the spirit of usury, Jesus is coming to overturn that as well. Bush wants to attack a lot of other nations, or his successor, and the USA will get the whipping of its life. Bush is provoking trouble with Venezuela lately, they have a lot of oil, maybe that will be it.

Thanks for responding,


Hi Jay,
           Some of those last responses were abusive, said you were an idiot, a liar, spiritually ignorant, a joker, antichristian, deceived....
          Neither true nor pleasant obviously but what I find interesting is the tone of their response in that case, if that is really what they
            Tell me I am being simplistic again but didn't Jesus say He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance? And didn't He say that we are to seek to convert the sinner from the error of his way? So why has none of your accusers in kindness and love sought to put you on the right track if that is where they are themselves? Truth is, they can't, because they aren't on it. Its a sham.
              So then what about our response to these modern day Pharisees? Jesus wants them to hear His voice, turn and be healed. We want them to do that too but we are running out of time and how much longer can any of us safely be mr or mrs Nice Guy?
             This is not about settling a personal score or learning how to forgive. This is about perceiving the heart of God for the weak and the poor and the less able worldwide and seeing people who claim to know Jesus slaughter Him all over again by ignoring their cries and giving allegiance to their persecutors.
            Don't come the anti-abortion stuff and then do murder by another name.
             I wonder if those that try so hard to convince us of the genuineness of their faith through this dialogue would really be needing to
do that if it was real? It stinks like the counterfeit it is, and we are well aware of the source of that.
            If someone has a better idea than shock tactics to wake people up I would like to know what it is.
                   Love, Mary

Hi Mary,

People are taking it personal, I hit them where they live. Can't be too hard on them, they don't know me like you do. I am exposing the schisms, the extremes, the divisive sides to the body of Christ. Why have a discussion if there aren't two sides to an argument. I am not making these divisions and issues up, they are there already, healing comes from exposing it to the light. They have the choice to turn away from seeing both sides. That's OK. These discussions have always been in someone's face.

Sinners to repentance is where I think I should be going next time.


I am in much agreement with your latest post, "The Christian Right" I hope this does not sound judgmental. I noted four responders wished to be removed from your mailing list, to unsubscribe is a simple matter, or to BLOCK your e-mail. I do have esteem for them, they did leave their names. This is more judgmental, those that go on a rant and flame you, using right wing rhetoric,  and apparently have no names are not paid attention to. If you must be rude go for it. I do not have to read it. I love God, I love America, I love you,

Love you too Don, I love America too.

Don't know what's up with the unsubscribe. Just like you say, follow the steps and your gone. Sometimes I include the post even though they are already gone. List always grows.

The flames are typical considering the source and a few may have been from one source. Will be looking out for that this time. Understand though, that they cannot help but feel this way.


Hi Jay,
     Its a day of virtual Christianity: so many won't think for themselves and make up their own minds what they should be doing and when it comes to experience they take it off the back of someone else. I blame the unbiblical manner in which we conduct our services with the pastor up the front giving what is often a regurgitated word he has already heard somewhere else and somehow getting away with an assembled leadership that hold him in such high regard they forget to consider the rest of the flock as having a right to input. So we all get sloppy and fat and used to being spoon fed and believing everything we hear.
        Then it spills over into our lives and we are so conditioned to following the crowd that we vote for whatever seems to us to be popular, thinking there might be safety in numbers at least. How else did we tolerate the buffoonery in the Thatcher and Reagan years.
        Religion is dangerous stuff on its own and so is politics. Combine them in R.wing Christianity and you have multitudes being suckered into believing lies.
          We don't care about being in the wrong, we just  don't like to be seen to be wrong much. I bet a lot of the responses opposing what you said about Bush were made in order to clear themselves with the pastor, or whoever else in their Christian world they held in high regard, and to run with the crowd.
          And since when has the crowd been right?
I watch people in Christian chat rooms spot someone with a need and proceed to enter into competition with everyone else to see who can outquote the others and impress the room. Meanwhile the hungry soul finds his needs unmet but tries to oblige and be helped with what hard dry fare he is given. It never works.
           Jesus is undoubtedly on the side of the poor and He is surely watching us make such a hash of things, walking all over the needy in our proud ignorance.
            If there is virtual Christianity then people are only virtually saved by a virtual Jesus and a virtual Gospel. That would neatly avoid ever having to come face to face with the real Jesus, or our real selves for that matter, and be accountable and repent.
             Not sure how to blow that one apart.
                    Love, Mary

You are right .. Life does begin with conception... and Kerry does not believe that. He has proved over and over again what a liar he is..He has even been excommunicated from the Catholic church.. Now that is bad!!!! People need to be careful esp if we claim to be christians.. Homosexuality is a Blatant sin...Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed because of it, but yet he believes that a man and man should be allowed to marry and a woman and woman be allowed to marry... How degrading is that to the sanctity of Marriage? His thoughts are so far to the left that he does not know what he stands for.. But there are peoplelike you that are so loyal to the democrtat party that no matter who they ran, youwould vote for them. I think that our President has done a fablous job and at lease he is not afraid to stand up and say that he is a Christian... And he is not afraid to mention our God... I do beleive that President Bush is a good man, a honest man and will do exactly what he says he will do..I also believe that we will give an account to god when we stand before him, for people that we vote for and elect into office. No matter how much scripture you throw myway, I know who God has me vote for. I pray and fast about this situation and God will not let me be decieved.
 God Bless

Hi Ada,

Actually, I did not say that , I said "that life does not begin at conception but before." It is a given, all life springs from God.

Ada, this discussion is not about John Kerry, or abortion or homosexuality, it has always been about George Bush. We are to bring some reasons why we think one way or another, is Bush is the Antichrist. I took the position that if he is not the Antichrist, he sure is acting like it and described Bush supporters and the Christian Right. This discussion may go beyond the elections.

But since you bring it up and homosexuality is among the sins of Sodom, we need to get this one political campaign issue out of the way.  Kerry believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman, he said so and so did Bush. Mentioned, I think somewhere in the last dialogues; it is one thing to believe in lies, it is another to go around spreading them. What I see though is some kind of civil union, a domestic partnership. Something that will extend rights.


"And let the people say Amen!
May The Light of Christ guide us all in these times.
Thank you brother, for your witness--
George L  

In the cacophony of Christmas commercialism, it can be difficult even to recall that it's about Jesus. But this hardly is the only time that Jesus gets lost in our modern swirl.

Take politics. In the recent presidential run, much was made by George W and his handlers of his supposedly superior moral values based on his commitment to Jesus. But before we let Bush steal away with the robe of Jesus and don it as a Republican garment, let's reflect a moment on the moral teaching of this man from Nazareth.

Like George, I grew up in a Methodist church in Texas. Unlike George, I didn't find any burning anti-liberal theology there. My little church might have considered itself "conservative," but only in terms of its commitment to the deeply egalitarian, truly progressive values we found in the Biblical teachings of Jesus.

I recall many a sermon that began with Jesus's words in Matthew 19:24: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." I recall that the greatest sin of all, "the root of all evil," Jesus said, is "the love of money." I recall the passionate retelling of how Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple – threw them out for charging interest rates for less than usurious bankers now charge us on our Visas and Mastercards, by the way.

I recall also that Jesus fed all of the masses that day on the hillside at the Sea of Galilee, not turning away anyone who lacked a platinum card to buy fishes and loaves. And I recall that Jesus flatly said: "You cannot serve with both God and Mammon."

In the good book, Jesus talks more about economic justice than nearly any other subject, and the apostles make clear that the most important ethical/religious test of Judeo-Christian faith is in how we treat the least wealthy, least important among us.

Let's call on Bush – and the Democrats, too—to live up to these moral values before they claim that Jesus is on their side.

Jim Hightower is the best-selling author of "Let's Stop Beating Around the Bush," from Viking Press. For more information, visit

Ronald Sitton wrote:

 Sorry man. But I would in no wise wish to go before God having slain the life in the womb. That is a human life. Even at conception. Life is what it is and what species it is. Am voting for a Pro-Life, not an anti life man..  Bush, my choice and a fellow Christian .  The other guy is a hopeful for man like Osama and Yassar Arafat. And the Viet Kong who honor Kerri in there war museum .Nope. Am voting for Bush as are most Christians. Jeremiah 1:5.  Romans 8:30.  Ephesians 1:4.

Hi Ronald,

You misunderstood me. I said that we must affirm "life in all its forms." You don't have to be sorry, we just disagree is all. The purpose of this list is to heal division, I am merely trying to reveal some of it, so it can be put away. You say that life in the womb is slain, I say that it is eternal.


Dear Jay,

Having read your latest posting I think I am more or less 'on the beam' and am with you as you seek to cut through, prophetically, the mystification of the present culture, especially the distortions and deceptions of American culture, especially the Christian Right, and to come to the heart of the matter.

I found your views on abortion especially interesting and probably correct especially as you expose the spirit of hate, judgement and fear which drives the religious Right. I am a psychiatric nurse and my wife is a medic (General Practitioner). I especially agree where you say that:

"Without the true love and grace in the church necessary for spreading the gospel to the poor effectively, the repression made America into a fearful, schizophrenic, selfish, materialistic, anti-church society on one side and a fearful, schizophrenic, selfish, materialistic, false church society on the other side vying for political power. This is enough to confuse even a godly remnant."

But I have serious reservations with your view that:

"They preach fear, saying liberals will take over the courts, take Christian freedoms away, take God out of everything, make gay marriages legal, are anti-family, are ungodly reprobates and infidels, murder infants and old people, the enemy of true patriotic Americans. All the while, true social reform suffers everywhere.

The problem I have here is that what you are saying is actually true with respect to the more liberal Left Wing agenda, although I agree that we must not respond to that with hatred of persons. Preaching pure fear and hate and judgement from a position of religious self-righteousness is clearly not the Gospel.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND to dismiss or to minimize that there is a very real and secular humanist effort to "take God out of everything" and especially to 'make gay marriages legal', is to ignore the facts. Taking God 'out of everything' (at least in the public sphere) was and remains one of the primary goals of the secular humanist Enlightenment.

The heated issues around homosexuality (now reaching boiling point) more or less follows on from that and is a consequence of that: namely, the rejection of divine revelation.

I consider Robert Gagnon's scholarly The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics (2002) the best presentation yet on what the Bible teaches with respect to homosexual practice. The study is both historical and theological, and addresses the thorny issues of biblical interpretation which surround this topic. The book is admired even by those who hold to the opposite opinion.

Gagnon is no homophobic fundamentalist, yet he makes it clear that if one takes the bible to be revelational of God's will, than homosexual practice is just as contrary to God's will as is incest or adultery and so on, which raises the issue of what is appropriate behaviour for those confess their sin and accept joyfully God's salvation in Christ and claim to be disciples of Jesus and to walk in the ways of the Lord.

The issue of how one treats other people is key issue. 'Love of enemies' is one of the key moral obligation of followers of Jesus. But it would also be foolish and very dangerous to fail to recognise who is a real enemy of the Gospel and of the Spirit of Christ

I mean how should a Christian treat someone who is sleeping with his mother and says it is Ok because it is loving committed relationship in which no-one is hurt?

It depends on where one is positioned. For example if that person was one's Pastor or a Bishop and said that he did not believe sleeping with his mother was wronga sin and was totally compatible with Christian discipleship and was teaching that it was OK for other Christians to sleep with their mothers, what should one do?

The NT does give a few guidelines and is not totally silent on that and on the issue of homosexual practice!!

Struggling with sin and failing is not the issue here, as I see it, (we all do that and must live by the grace of God). The issue is the more serious one of saying and believing that what the bible reveals to be NOT sin because we must move with the times and the spirit of the age.

This kind of basic confusion (on any basic spiritual issue) is bound to lead to deep spiritual confusion on many other issues as well and to a profound distortion of what it means to be a Christian for those who seek to follow Christ.

But to return to the issue at hand:

Gagnon's home page is worth checking out:

< >

Gagnon ( see < >

Gagnon says, with reference to John Kerry:

What Pro-Homosex Legislation May Mean For You

"I share the ambivalence of many Christians regarding our current two-party system. But in the end one has to weigh the issues and cast a ballot. All Christians (indeed, all persons of any faith) who have reservations about homosexual practice must ask themselves what kind of long-term impact it will have on their--and, more importantly, their children's--freedoms of religion and speech to elect:

A President who thinks that even the minimalist stance of reserving the name "marriage" for male-female unions  is sheer "ignorance," "hatred," "bigotry," and the moral and civil equivalent of racism.

A President who would put the full weight of the executive branch of the federal government behind imposing Massachusetts "gay marriage" on all 50 states.

A President who, through so-called "employment nondiscrimination legislation" and "hate speech" legislation, would push an agenda that will likely threaten, in the not too distant future, you or your children with loss of employment, loss of academic opportunities, fines, exorbitant legal bills, loss of parental rights, and even imprisonment if you or they publicly express disapproval of homosexual practice.

A President whose prohomosex initiatives could ultimately threaten religious freedom to a degree where pastors might (as in Sweden today) be imprisoned for preaching from Scripture's stance against homosexual practice; where churches could lose tax exempt status if they did not marry homosexual couples; and where Christian colleges and seminaries could face the loss of government grants, student loan aid, tax exempt benefits, and accreditation for failing to promote the homosexual agenda in their hiring and instruction.

A President who would lend the power of the Presidency to promote coercive indoctrination of our children in public and accredited private school systems, through convocations, textbooks, class projects, and skits, with the message that homosexual relationships and even transgenderism are good; hat children should experiment to see if they have a "gay" side; that the homosexual agenda is a civil rights cause comparable to the fight for racial equality in the 1960s; and that those who think otherwise are hate-filled, ignorant bigots who should be isolated, penalized, and ostracized."

It would agree that it is wrong for the so-called Christian right to respond to things like this with equally bigotry and 'hate speech' and so on, but I also feel it is unwise for you to play down the very real threat to Christian religious liberty which is now underway within the USA, Britain and Europe.

In the UK, it may soon become law that it will be illegal (and punishable by imprisonment) for anyone to say in public, including the pulpit, that one specific religion is the only way to salvation. It will also be a crime to say or to teach that homosexual practice is a sin and it may well become mandatory to teach the exact opposite and penalise parents who teach their children otherwise. These are not groundless over the top conspiracy theories but it is now in your face in the daily and national press over here.

The Archbishop of Nigeria has just said that the Windsor Report, published by the Lambeth Commission on Communion and homosexuality and the recent oridination of a gay 'practising' Bishop in the USA on Monday,

........"falls far short of the prescription needed".

Archbishop Peter Akinola said the Report had failed to confront

...... "the reality that a small, economically privileged group of people has sought to subvert the Christian faith and impose their new and false doctrine on the wider community of faithful believers."

"We have watched in sadness as sisters and brothers who have sought to maintain their allegiance to the 'faith once delivered to the saints' have been marginalized and persecuted for their faith. We have been filled with grief as we have witnessed the decline of the North American Church that was once filled with missionary zeal and yet now seems determined to bury itself in a deadly embrace with the spirit of the age. Instead of a clear call for repentance we have been offered warm words of sentimentality for those who have shown no godly sorrow for!".

Is this just Right Wing religious 'hate speech'?

But be assured the American Religious Right WILL use the good Archbishop's statement for its own ends.


In Christ,

Bill Gordon

Hi Bill,

Exactly where I am going with it too. There will be the hammer coming down on the other side as well. And I agree that there are pushes to take god out of things and those other things you mentioned at the far left. We know there will be lawlessness and corruption. We do not ignore it, it must still be preached that sin is sin. Just as important however is reaching out to them without all that judgment. What I exposed is the extreme right. Pretty much right on it seems, with all the hate mail I am getting now.

The discussion however is to stay on track. It is about Bush and if he is acting like the Antichrist, not Kerry or discussions of homosexuality. I got drawn into the political end of it because of elections coming up.

What you mention about the left is interesting. When I starting thinking of the counterpart to the Christian Right, I could not see clearly much a movement like that going on with a Christian Left. No identity there at all. I know that in Europe it is different but apostolic ideas and social democracy don't fare well in this government, Republican or Democrat, too tied to the big bucks.


Thanks Jay,

As for the 'Christian' Left (at least over here, and to some extent in  the USA) these are those within the mainline Christian denominations,  (especially Anglican/Episcopalian) and a variety of ex-evangelicals    who are now coming out strong on the side of a 'Christianity  without God' including a strong denial of all the traditional Christian  teachings such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, Christ's resurrection  from the dead, sin, and so on.

You get this with people like Bishop John Shelly Sprong, Don Cupitt  (The Sea of Faith) and many others, under the name of an non or  anti-theistic Christianity'. An important component to this is an  enthusiastic appeal to recently discovered Gnostic texts (such as the  'gospel; of Thomas), radical feminism and the erasure of canonical  boundaries.

For example there is new modern translation of the NT called Good as  New: A Radical Retelling of the Scriptures by John Henson which  inexplicably (but interestingly) has an unqualified recommendation from  the Archbishop of Canterbury in the forward.

< 026-2755395-6410867 >

The fact that the Archbishop considers this New Age 'reading' of the  New Testament as "a presentation of extraordinary power' to be  commended to the Anglican flock and to all other Christians is, I  think, an important indication of this scholarly Archbishop's deep  spiritual confusion which is being exposed for all to see in his  handling of the current crisis in the Anglican Church over the  ordination of homosexual Priests and Bishops and gay marriages.

According to one review of the book

"This new translation takes the bull by the horns in providing a  translation of the early Christian scriptures in the idiom of today. It  also follow the principle of cultural translation, where for instance  "demon possession" becomes what it is as understood as today, "mental  illness." It follows "contextual translation," following the sense over  longer sections. It is also "inclusive," following the principles which  Jesus adopted in relation to his culture. It is women, gay and sinner  friendly. Other radical departures reflect the need to demythologise in  order to translate adequately into our own culture. For instance  "Kingdom of God" thus becomes "God's New World." Perhaps the most  controversial departure from all other translations is a return to the  selection of books which were held in the highest esteem by the early  Church in the first two centuries. So, for instance, Revelation is out,  the Gospel of Thomas is in. "

So this is very much where the left/liberal 'branch' of the Church is  headed, namely into increasingly self-congratulatory apostasy and   heresy, sometimes openly, but mostly secretly and in the context of  increasing muddle and incoherence, as with the well-meaning and  sentimental present Archbishop of the Anglican Church .


Yes, Y'Shua told her He does not condemn her. But He also said, 'go, and SIN NO MORE'.
Now WHY would He say that if it did not matter?

In reading this latest political post Jay, I see that your anger and hatred has come from a place of pain. I sincerely pray that your scarred heart will be healed and joy of Y'Shua will replace the pain and bitterness.

You and I conversed on this several month's back. I am sad to see this thread is still alive and well and the anger and bitterness is going out to so many on the net.

I thought we BOTH agreed it was not about liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat, but about Elohim. But I see I must have mis-understood or read wrong.

In this day of man calling right wrong and wrong right, I find it dis-heartening to see it coming from a brother in Y'Shua. I admonish you to forgive, allow Him to heal you heart, to deliver you from this cancer of hatred and bitterness which only steals, kills, and destroy's our hope, faith, and love.

Fact is, judgment has come to the nations. Whether you vote one way or another, it is still come. What form it will take and how quickly it increases though may very well depend upon whom is in authority this next four years.

In your post you justify ( and in THIS you do so in YHWH's NAME!!) the murder of unborn children. In your pain and bitterness you have believed the lie and it is reflected and expanded now into all your decisions and your vision is obscured by this so that seeing, you do not see, hearing, you do not hear. When we allow our hearts to come to this, He will have His prophets speak to us according to our hearts. So it does not surprise me that you believe the Holy Spirit is speaking these things to you, and that your understanding of scripture has become perverted so that you call death back to life as though it is not ONLY YHWH who gives life.

Jay, I don't expect you to post this one. But in all fairness it should be posted. In the natural I can refute all you have spoken concerning this election, while on some things I would also have to concede. But unless you can allow yourself to look past the issues of the heart, to lay the feelings/emotions aside to lay hold of the truth, it would mean nothing would it?

ALL candidates are lacking. But I have been watching this for a long time before they began running for the office of Presidency and have watched as the enemy of our faith has stolen the peace of not only the candidates, but of the masses as well. I have watched as from one day to the very next day words be spoken in direct opposition to words spoken the day before, and these new words accepted as the only thing having been said!? From the media and those being deceived. It is like blinders have been placed upon the people. At least many of them, mostly the outspoken ones who have such anger in them.

I pray that eyes will be opened to see, ears to hear! Amen

This nation, indeed the world, is at a crossroad. We have choices to make. And if the past is any indication of the future? YHWH remember mercy in Your judgments..amen

I ask you Jay, is this voice which calls you to spit out such venom against a certain people and candidate also telling you that it is ok to murder, commit adultery, to lie and steal, to replace Sabbath with sun-day worship, to be lawless?

ahhhh.... MANY disagree with me. I am scum in the eyes of most. For I believe the WHOLE of the written word. And cannot justify picking out what  this and that, here a little, there a little, to make it come into agreement with me, or to justify myself. I can only be justified by and through Y'Shua the Messiah. And I cannot call YHWH a liar or say He cannot complete and bring to pass His Own word!!

You have spoken of anti-christ. A better rendering is counterfeit Messiah. But this counterfeit will do and say exactly as you eventually. He will come in words which flatter and glorify others before he glorifies himself. He will eventually take away the Sabbath's and appointed times of YHWH. He will say there is no law other than his law. That YHWH didn't know what He was doing or that NOW HE is the replacement of the truth and law and deny all that truth is. He will claim to be Messiah! And he will set at the head of the assemblies to the north. Indeed perhaps he is already seated there. But that is for those who understand.

Y'Shua never did this! But man has decided to believe the lie! And in His name come against those who would believe the truth. Believing they are true and doing this for Elohim according to His will.

Is Bush anti-christ? No. Is Kerry? No. Do they walk in the council of the anti-Messiah? I believe so, most of the world does, as also, sadly, most of the 'church'.

Praise Yah! There IS a remnant! But this remnant is not walking according to the words I have been reading from you. Scripture will define this remnant for you if you are willing. Ones who have chosen the narrow road and denied the broad road which is most traveled.



Thanks for writing.

This is a discussion list, I am not angry, it is not about bitterness and I am not spitting venom. I am stating an argument the best that I can given the gravity of the subject. We still have more to discuss, you need to reserve this kind of analysis for later. The discussion is not about Kerry or abortion or Iraq, this discussion is about George Bush and if he is acting like the Antichrist. And don't take it so personal, we all need to grow. It is still about Jesus.


Hi Mary and Jay,

I'm not sure that President Bush is the antichrist, but I can certainly see how America is well placed to dominate the world economically and I agree totally with the view that the gospel was aimed at the poor and everyone sharing, not those with wealth who always support political and religious structures that allow them to lead comfortable lives.

The way I see it is that Christians are called to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, die to themselves and renounce all interest in the world.  By doing that they focus on what really matters - a real relationship with God and a common heart.  Since we are given the same heart we should be able to discuss anything and see each other's position.  Too often we have self interests or want to hold on to cherished ideas which we feel safe with.  It's understandable, but unwise.

The reality is that truth shows darkness for what it is.  The natural reaction when we feel threatened is to fight back and that's what people are doing.  They see your ideas as dangerous and they misread your motives.  

I believe the only way to wake people up is shock tactics.  Nothing else will work and that was the method adopted in the Acts.  The only message worth preaching is Jesus and a full giving up of the heart.  If the heart is right everything else follows.  If the heart is wrong then we might as well converse with a brick wall for all the good it will do.

We get held back because we are frightened by what people might do or how we are perceived.  I'm convinced God is calling us to walk on water and we are too frightened of getting out the boat.  What we need to appreciate is that once we start doing dangerous things we get given more strength.  We need people to get troubled and we aren't being heartless in doing that.  If people don't get troubled nothing will change.  We are all like that and we must think about the results not how others consider us.  When we give up wondering what people think and start saying what needs to be said belief is created.  God wants us to get addicted to being led by him in challenging ways and even if we are severely ill-treated for it we will be strengthened for God does not give his Spirit in measure.   

Who cares what people think of us?  Why should we moderate our words if they are true and necessary and God is in us?  When Christ said his words were to bring a sword I believe the intention was that we should shake things up and destroy all of the world's systems.  I read in the papers that half a million martyrs will gain the world for the Moslems and I believe Satan is rushing to do what Christians are too fearful to do.  The question is whether the sword of the Spirit is more powerful than carnal weaponry.  I believe that it is and the objective of that sword was to pierce between the soul and spirit so people had to reach decision time.

What I see is a world system developing with the intention of either shutting us out or forcing us to compromise.  However if we hesitate to get on with the business of straight talking in the churches the world will end up reaching helplessness and submitting to the antichrist before Christians start to cry out to God.  

Interestingly those who get the name sealed into their foreheads are those who feel personal about the state of the churches if we look at Ezekiel 9 and cry out to God about it.  Pray for the churches and we will be blessed.  Those who are sealed get taken out of spiritual Egypt and gain the protection of God, but the other way round to Cain.  The time for action is now and we need God to move us towards that and it has to be in his time and his way.  It is going to get tough and we must not be like the false prophets who always preach that things will be okay.  They will never be unless we take holiness and full giving up of the hearts seriously.

Every breakdown of the church and church restoration comes from within.  The keys to prevent that happening are to preach Christ as the teacher through the Spirit, full giving of the heart and to never act through our enthusiasm.  Otherwise doctrine eventually becomes an issue.  It doesn't matter what people believe as long as they have Christ and the Spirit for he will show them everything they need to know.  History shows teaching at head level leads to problems and I've experienced it.  It doesn't work.  Neither can we live off someone else's enthusiasm.  Crying out to God and full giving of the heart will work.

Let's encourage one another to get radical.  It get's pretty boring any other way.   I mean it's nice to get lots of fluffy thoughts and stuff, but if people really are going to hell and there are millions who need Christ we need to learn how to be radical.

Do we want to be bored or scared?  Do we want more of God's Spirit and a big harvest or are we happy the way things are?  I'm scared folks because I know as soon as we discover a way of doing things Satan will try to block it.  We really do have to pray hard to be shown how to act and have the courage to act now.

Much love and hey I love you folks,

Tim W

Krissy wrote:


So how would you vote? Or are you voting at all?

Hi Krissy. There is only one option to get rid of Bush, so I vote for Kerry. It is not a Republican or Democrat thing with me. There are plenty of Republicans that I would vote for over Bush but we don't have that choice.


I just read this letter and a little uncomfortable with some of what you said.  I believe that no matter who wins this presidential election this
time around it will be in the hands of our LORD and GOD.  Why bash either popular person with your mouth.  Pray to Our Father God in Heaven for wisdom and direction to be able to perform His Will for as you God will use his servants whom ever they may be to bring about His PLAN to completion.

I say pray for His Guidance and then make your decision.  TELL the PEOPLE Jay.


Hi Chuck,

Good advice, thanks. It was meant to make people uncomfortable but it is only coincidentally about the elections. It is a discussion about whether George Bush is acting like the Antichrist or not. While Bush may be a popular President, he is not a populist one. He says he is a uniter when he is a divider. I happen to believe that Bush acts like he is a champion of democracy as he goes around the world trying to dismantle it. The God he worships is the image of the beast. No one is taking things out of the hands of God when He uses us as vessels of liberation and extend rights to the poor. Yes, it is both our responsibility to tell the people.


Hello Jay . This is a response to your email the other day. I Totally disagree about when life begins. Also about getting mixed up in  politics.  Penn      

Hello to Jay and All:

I have been reading the forum lately and have come to some observations:

One, folks have been getting rather emotional about the situation.  Two: a number of people on the forum seem to have no idea of what Jay has been saying, although a number Do understand and have contributed additional knowledge and wisdom to the debate.

Some of what Jay said regarding the relation of the Religious Right and the present administration seemed harsh to some who felt that they or their ideas were under attack...But if they truly Knew more of what Jay is speaking out against—especially the newer stuff (i.e. the past four years)—perhaps they might be less resistant.   Jay has seen, read, and discerned much, but it seems that the general knowledge of the American People has decreased even though sources of information has not.    

The reading of Books and newspapers has been decreasing even as the average person hears more and more “news’ from the slanted eyes of “talk’ radio and not-so-subtly biased programs such as Fox News and Sinclair.

There is a lot of info out there—Anyone who has access to this discussion can read various online newspapers, and not just those based in the USA.  The English Guardian newspaper has much breaking news about the world, for example.  Some of the Scottish, German, French and even Russian newspapers have stories often repressed in US newspapers.

But there are some books written in the US that are quite informative regarding the historical and present realities of which we are discussing...

For example: How the Right went Wrong-by the former Republican presidential candidate, Patrick Buchanan.  Or both of Woodward´s books about the Bush Administration, Robert Byrd´s Losing America, Blood and Oil: The Dangers and Consequences of America´s Growing Petroleum Dependency by Michael T. Klare , just to name a few.

It seems that most of the replies supporting for Bush versus Kerry Centered not on the economic aspects of the President´s policy but rather, on two items relating to the “moral’ issue, Abortion and Homosexuality.   This is where the Bush campaign has been most successful in winning over evangelicals, and through these twin issues has—as previous Republican campaigns have been going over the past two to three generations—been able to backdoor a lot of their economic agendas.

Using Morality as a political tactic has been working for the Republicans fro a number of years, and while many in the Democratic Party have been weak in this arena, we should not be deceived by what the Republican Establishment (as opposed to rank and file members) and, especially the Bush Administration have actually been Doing in this regard.

The major political backers of the Bush administration include such media giants as Sinclair, clear Channel, and Fox.  Look folks, how “family friendly’ are these?  The moral-cultural decline in America has been heavily pushed by Fox and the others, (remember that Clear Channel originally hosted Howard Stern until he became non-supportive of Bush?)

Furthermore, as far as Bush´s record regarding homosexuality, both Kerry and Bush do not support same-sex marriage so, except for Bush´s desire to subject the constitution to another alteration.  So, what is the big difference?  

 Here is what I see on this:

As Governor of Texas, G.W. Bush added to the spread of the “gay life’ via the Texas Prison system.   That system, which is regarded as having one of the overall poorest safety records for the nation for both staff and inmates various human rights organizations as well as AFSCME the national Union of State and government employees that represents Correctional officers.

This problem really got out of hand when Bush (who formerly had a major substance problem himself) increased the penalties for substance abuse (including alcohol) in Texas.  His draconian substance penalties threw tens of thousands into and already crowded prison system rather than utilize treatment programs to assist with substance problems.

In the Texas prison system, staff—often private, employees—are underpaid, inmates have been housed in makeshift accommodations such as tents, and violence is rampant.  This includes of course, the bane of prison systems, sexual violence.  Control of the population is often either or brutal, or weak.  Sadly, this system has been copied in a number of states instead of a more practical and effective correction system, such as the Canadian one, which has been steadily decreasing its' recidivist rate.

How can any Christian approach to crime ignore rehabilitation when that is the essence of Christ´s message—to reclaim and rehabilitate humanity on this earth?

On the Question of Abortion, I believe that Jay is correct in saying that Bush is more rhetorical, than substantive in dealing with the issue.  For one, The Bush approach has been focusing primarily on the very unlikely prospect of a constitutional amendment which would take two thirds of the House and Senate to be passed, then would still have to have a similar majority in the States, for ratification.   (I would tend to believe that there could be a hidden agenda here—for example just to get people used to the idea of changing the constitution so it can be changed in other ways which might vastly affect the definition of America. ibid for the same-sex marriage proposal).

The issue for the Bush administration and many “pro-life’ ideologists—as opposed to the rank and file perhaps—seems to be more on the order of forbidding (or giving the impression of) the legalization of the act rather than preventing it´s existence.   This approach has been an effective Cudgel in keeping out the millions of unfortunate women who have had abortions from seeking the solace of the church, and has given reason for many to support a political platforms that exalts a list of ideals which are an anathema to Christian faith.  This is especially apropos to the Republican platform.

Even when abortions were illegal, we still had them, so where is the real effort to deal with the conditions that spawn them?   Rape, economic poverty and ill-heath, ignorance, legalistic moral judgementalism—think how many parents have forced their daughters to undertake abortions—including the judgmental attitude that unequivocally condemns all such tragic instances as murder?

Sadly, so many “pro-lifers’ are hinging their hopes on a man who is far-from pro-life, who is happy to expand the number of executions, even in hitherto non-capital crimes, and engage in open ended wars—under the cover of the “war on terror’—for energy resources whereby the world´s economy can be manipulated.

Sadly, it´s not taken into account that the alternative candidate IS roman catholic and, if elected president would most likely to oppose a constitutional change would most likely have to come to some accommodation with Vatican dogma on this subject.   (This could be helped further if more pro-lifers outside of the Catholicism, would join his base of voters.)

 Lastly, even if Bush were serious about these two and other major stumbling blocks of morality –and, by his actions he is not—should we really support someone who in practically every other major issue has put the world and us at risk?  Deference to the “neo cons’, Job and corporate Outsourcing, record spending deficits, unilateral pre-emptive military strikes and alienation of our allies, Disregard for international law and the Geneva convention.  Additionally, we have seen under this administration the under funding of job training, substance abuse and rehabilitation programs and of law enforcement personnel, the destruction of the environment, accumulation of powers in the Executive Branch of government—the assault of the constitution of the United States of America.  All these and more have happened under GW Bush´s short term.

In addition, there are a number of other reasons not to vote for Bush that have been more eloquently expressed in this forum by other contributors.

Folks, we really need to think hard and pray hard about this!

May God bless and guide us all today.

Sincerely, George Lynch

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." : John Kenneth Galbraith
Someone else words worth sharing.

Do you know of any discussion boards on the net that are centrist? I have participated in one that had Right leanings prior to the election. Now that Bush was reelected they seem more embodied to call anyone that dares disagree with them, evil and un Christian. According to some, Fox news is the only creditable news agency, never mind that Fox puts as much or more trash on TV as any network . As the pompous O'reilly explains that is the entertainment department not the News department.

One of the great frauds the Republicans wish to perpetuate on the American people is this great mandate the Republicans received on November 2, 2004, 49% to 51% does not a mandate make. Wonder what skullduggery the Republicans will think this entitles them to? I confess to God and all that may read this, I seldom prayed for Bill Clinton, my bad, I pray for George Bush daily because he is a frightening person..

To all thinking and breathing persons, "Is not it truly delightful that God is not a Democrat, yes, not even a Republican!"


Hi Don,

Centrist, haven't heard that word in a while. Don't know of any forums on that, anyway. Actually, that is a very broad term, anything that is left of the extreme right is centrist until you get into outright Marxist Leninist communism or maybe anarchism. The Christian right has pushed away any Christian that is not as maniacal as they, scaring away any moderates that the Republicans have left over from the good old days. I agree with you, God is not of any political party. I fear for this nation with the false Jesus nationalism but at the same time I see what is happening as just what is predicted in the Bible in the last days.

I can recommend our own discussion board, the latter rain lightship. It is a mixed group and interested in healing the hurts that many of us have gone through and of course in healing division. We don't get political that much, new members sometimes show a fundamentalist bias but for the most part is spiritual where we all learn together. It is at Come on by.

Thanks for writing,


Hi all,

         Seems to be a few around saying that there is no such thing as "The Antichrist" to be revealed in these last days. I see something quite different written in the word.

         Since none of us has the whole deal of truth regarding end-time prophecy, wouldn't it be great if we could just pool what we think about it and learn from each other? Maybe some others would like to take issue with what I am about to write, or have some ideas of their own. Either way, welcome your comments.

        What I am thinking is that God alone is Creator, and satan is only able to copy. This being so we can look at what God is doing in heaven, the church and in the world, and be sure that satan will attempt to raise a counterfeit, and a counterpart, in order to deceive us. We need to be on the alert for that.

         We have our heavenly Father, from Whom comes our Saviour Jesus Christ. Satan is the father only of lies, and it is from him that The Antichrist will come, the counter-Christ. Heaven is the throne of God, but the world has been the dominion of satan and his playground, and where he can get away with what he does in the hearts of men, until God takes him out of the way. So it is clearly not from heaven but  from the world that we will see that Antichrist appear, and this person, the son of perdition, the man of sin, has not yet been revealed.

         1John2:18 */*/18/* Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 2 Thess 2 /*

*2 Thessalonians 2:3-12* */*/3/* Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; /**/4/* Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      How will it be that people will be deceived by this human character? He will have great worldly power and will appeal to all that is worldly in the church. There is a great prosperity move in the church and many are suckered in by the so called respectability of wealth. They believe the lie that money and success is God blessing them and make the assumption that the reason the poor are poor is because God hates them. They follow suit, by rejecting them, and rejecting those who serve them.

       The working of Christ among His church is a hidden work, and described as a mystery. The real plumbline that divides the true church from satans counterfeit is the presence of the Holy Spirit. We can't see the Holy Spirit is in someone, but if He is in us, we recognize others of the same spiritual "kin", the family of God, we hear them and feel them and love them and know they belong to us.

        Satan's counterpart to this is also a mystery, the mystery of iniquity, working through people in a stealthy way to achieve his evil ends. The counterpart to the Holy Spirit is the antichrist spirit, thats the one that won't have it that Jesus is come in the flesh. People of God feel the hatred from this spirit because it tries to slaughter our confidence in Christ-in-us, the Hope of Glory, by discrediting us, by accusing us falsely, by declaring that it is we who are the false prophets etc.

      If you have been involved in some kind of work among the poor you will no doubt have felt some evil directed at you from the affluent parts of the church, subtly or otherwise. The giveaway is the reaction to holy action seen among the people of God: rather than be convicted and repent of worldliness it will attempt to kill us, kill our work, kill our witness. Instead of putting itself right through confession and repentance (the work of the cross) it will choose instead to convince men that we are the wrongdoers.

       We accuse no-one; but they will accuse us. We lord it over no-one; but they will try to lord it over us. We harm no-one; but they will try to harm us and take us out of the way. In humility we prefer one another and love each other, willing to wash each others' feet. In pride they will assert their rights and their position over us, loving only those who let them continue in their greed and the exaltedness of their position..

       If we are involved in work among the poor and outcast it is we who are obedient to God. Those who choose affluence and worldly ease are the children of disobedience.

        See the stage set for the return of Christ, and satan poised to spring his counterpart, the Antichrist, upon the world to deceive us. While the Holy Spirit works in us to make us more and more like the spotless bride Jesus is coming back for, the antichrist spirit and the mystery of iniquity works away in the hearts of men, even religious men, to deceive us, if it were possible, and the world into thinking we have it all wrong.

        Jesus is the Truth and we who have received Him also love Him as Truth. There is no hiding, no counterfeiting, no pretense and no hidden agenda among the people for whom He will return. If we are found in the wrong we want more than anything to put things right. We know how, we know the way. Jesus is that way and He it is who gives us life.

       Satan is a liar, and the children of disobedience are those who have not received the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thess 7-12 says this:

*/7/* "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. */8/* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: */9/* Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, */10/* And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: */12/* That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

                       Time to choose. Truth...or a lie? Life...or death? Joy of the Lord....or pleasure in unrighteousness?
                                       Jesus is coming for His own, amen?

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