Solemn Assembly

June 10, 2001

When God washes us clean, He makes us beautiful but this puts us in a position that can be taken in pride when we trust in our own beauty. Many who are new to the faith think more highly of themselves than they should. God puts down the prideful and exalts the humble but this may take time to learn and we may have to go through the wilderness first and be broken before we can truly be the kind of person that God is fashioning us to be.

Churches that play the whore have been exposed to the word of God and His spirit but then spiritual pride takes them captive and they become exalted in their own minds as being an elite people of God that have the authority to Lord it over others. This pride makes them trust in their own understanding, gifts from God, riches and power and it therefore becomes a delusion but the honor for that delusion is mistakenly given to God. They start doing things in the name of Jesus that has nothing to do with Jesus by His spirit and as they go on being deceived, they then start deceiving others. They become the way and the truth and spiritual life comes through them. History shows them going from bad to worse. With their own way of doing things, they gather others as sheep to follow them instead of the spirit of Christ and a new denomination gets started or a split in the church or a new congregation or they cast reformers out of their midst in the name of conservatism, tradition and church authority. As they distance themselves more and more from New Testament unity and go off doing their own thing, they try to make a name for themselves that brings glory to the fleshly ministry instead of to God. All this time they think that they are serving Him and doing His will.

The Lord is about to bring judgment upon this false authority and many of His people will be debased. This is not something new, we have known about it for some time but now it is close at hand and we should be very concerned because these are the people of God that we should be reaching out to in love. The complacent attitude of many is to do things as we have been doing things and allow others to pave the way. Our attitude should be one of sorrow but also of reverant fearfulness that we may not be caught up in part of that delusion and judgment. For many of us that takes repentance but for all of us, it takes prayer. It is in this fervent prayer, travail and tearful remorse for the whole world that will bring down the outpouring of God's spirit upon all flesh.

We are about to embark upon a sacred journey. I have already asked for confirmation with my concern about this solemn assembly and received all I need to know that it is time. I have mentioned that it is past time. This includes a fast also but it would do little good for me to start fasting and travailing on my own, we need the support of many in a unity that has never been witnessed before. It is not up to me to go out with a campaign in the flesh and start attracting attention either. Although I know that I could do it, it has to be a united effort according to the spirit and it must be in God's timing. So what I will be doing is praying that the Lord would send the desire in many around the world to bear witness of this solemn assembly and the knowledge that the time is coming for judgment and we should be concerned. You are all invited to pray with me toward that end. The result is getting as many as we can through the refiner's fire and into the beauty of holiness and the river of life without a scent of smoke.

As for closing out our end-time discussion, unless there is more, it is over. What we have done is to re-affirm that these things are just beginning and the time of restoration is here. I have asked for many things but what we all agree on is that we only have a glimpse of what is coming according to imperfect knowledge. As to the kingdom, no one was able to give us any scriptures to prove that the thousand year period of peace is still in the future or that it is positively in the present. For myself, I still believe that there will be a thousand year reign of peace to come after the tribulation period but I could be all wrong. I will also belief that Jesus reigns in my heart already and I do not have to wait. Whether it is in the future or not is not important at this point and it does not matter how we believe it will come or not come. Those that wish to divide over the issue will not be a part of what we are doing for we must love each other unconditionally regardless of our views on these things. What we do know and of supreme importance is that we are in God's kingdom now; the Kingdom of God is within us and has been since Jesus came the first time. We may not know what will happen when Jesus comes for us again or when it will be but we do believe that He will come again.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20, 21.

The topic this time is of the solemn assembly. Read on of the passages in Joel that speak of it and beyond of some great insights concerning the kingdom. There are other passages that mention the seventh and eighth day fulfillments in Jewish history concerning the solemn assembly and Passover and repentance. Are there any that have some insights to give us? Or maybe your spiritual confirmations? I am not alone in this thinking and if it is the Lord putting it onto our hearts, then many others will hear also. What are you hearing? If the Lord leads you to pray and travail over the condition of the church and the judgment to come, share the prayer here.


Generally when the Lord puts things on my heart I try to verify them by other sources so we shall see where this is going. At any rate, I will be in that attitude, actually I have been for a long time. It is real hard for me to sing praise songs, I find it very easy to sing the blues. That's why I mentioned that we should be singing the blues instead of so many praise songs. I know that we should be praising the Lord in all of our circumstances but who are the ones that are suffering, anyway? For us to be praising the Lord because of our own blessings while so many others are suffering does not make sense to me. It is the luke-warm church that is rich and has need of nothing and the ones that are praising the Lord the loudest. Is that what we have become, noisy gongs and clanging cymbals without substance? Well, I want no part of that, I will have compassion on those that I know have been oppressed and marginalized and exploited and prejudiced against and do what I can to stand in the gap for them. And I will also keep on preaching that we should come into that solemn assembly to pray for those that have been led away captive into the complacency that typifies the church of today. I think we are on the same page this is living out the kingdom.

Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD'S ministers, mourn. The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth. Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished. The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men. Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God. Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God? Joel 1:8-16.

These verses are directed toward the restoration process in our day. When is that solemn assembly? For me it is now. I have said it before that I believe that we are past time for it but that is just because I have been calling for it and am in that attitude already. If it is the Lord or just my pride, we shall see but we should be looking for it to come some time soon. Just because I think it is now is nothing, it has to be from the Lord but what are we waiting for? Is the Lord waiting on us? It is up to us to think of the kingdom of God as being not only a period of peace in the future but thinking in terms of now. If the kingdom is present with us, we should start acting like it. You see the church that Joel is describing? No meat, no drink, the field is wasted, dried up wine. We are to be lamenting, be ashamed, we are to be putting on sackcloth. Doom and gloom is not popular but look at the condition of the church. They want to be popular so they get all worldly and colorful and give the pretense of having some spirituality when the rest of the world is going hungry. We are fortunate in that we are part of what God is doing to restore the church and we should be praising God for everything but are we having an effect? The church is still in a mess. The prophets speak of a great harvest, stadiums being filled and people healed but what is happening? The church is still in a mess and they still go to their dead churches that have the appearance of being alive and praise the Lord for their privileged circumstance. We need to lament and get down on our knees and weep and howl for a church that thinks they are alive when it is only ignorant pretense. For me, I will, but what of others, it is supposed to be a united thing. I cannot be the only one who thinks this way, am I?


Hello Jay,

Just finished reading your recent message. i am sitting here in absolute astonishment. First, in my little corner of the world, i have never heard the term "solemn assembly" used in any way shape or form. Second, i had never read those verses in Joel before.

Jay, for what it's worth, i am in complete and irrevocable agreement with every word you wrote. The very same thoughts and feelings have been swirling around in my spirit ever since i started attending church in April of '96.

Linda Pierson
(except only - testimony followed)

Powerful, Jay. Powerful!! I can feel this one, brother. In my heart I can only see the similarity of this with the time just before evil entered into the garden of eden. God must have lamented about what was about to happen... The discussions on the end times have been great. I'm truly learning and filled with awe at the responses. I just reflect on the passage from the book of Thomas, when Jesus says, "If you want to find the end, go back to the beginning, for therein lies the end." Many blessings and much peace to you.

Bill Caraway

Blessings Jay,

Was just now reading the articles on the Latter-Rain website - only got through a few sentences when I realized what Paul Cain wrote is what I am trying to say. The tears are not only for the suffering of sin in the world - but for people like my young friend that I introduced to God, but who has turned away. I knew the power of God - I had been through much Satanic warfare, I knew Satan was real and I know God is real and more powerful - so that is what I conveyed to her. So when she got in church and I looked at the church through her eyes - which you will do when you love people, see life through their eyes, that is when the real pain begins. Because you can only take them so far - then they walk alone. Will she come back? That is my prayer. But if what is in the church is more decaying than what is in the world, that will be a hard call. She needs to be like Jesus. Suffer like Him. Love like Him. Desire nothing from anyone or anything. Then she will be free to receive all that He has for her. But I can't do that for her. But I can cry for her, and pray for her, and continue to love her, and suffer for her. Paul Cain wrote "It flows from feeling the pain and the suffering that the Lord Jesus feels for us. He is our High Priest, touched by the feeling of our infirmities. We need to feel what He feels for America. We need to feel what He feels for the Church. We need to feel what He feels about sin and the abominations that are going on in the earth today." Blessings, Arlette


Thanks Arlette,

That article from Paul Cain is on today's Five-Fold Today Articles and archived already at

I was asking in anyone felt the way I did about the solemn assembly, mentioned that I needed confirmation and then this was sent to me yesterday. The article that follows by Denise Lagrimas speaks of love, mercy, humility and an intimacy that includes "weeping, loving and living for your time with him."


just this morning God put that verse...Spirit and my head. I believe the war is heavy upon us, and the Spirit would be Holy Spirit led (listening!) and knowing the Truth of the written word. If we go off emotionally, our enemy finds room to bring chaos to our hearts...if we only had the Logos, our own spirits would be dry. Jesus said He would manifest himself to those who love Him....

Also, Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live...not I, but Christ lives in me..." Sounds to me like a complete emptying of himself, as Jesus did, to not do his own will however subtle it breathes "obey," but to do only what the Father wants. Dead, but very much alive.


The Path To New Jerusalem

Rms. 11:16 "For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root be holy, so are the branches." (The lump and the root represent Israel - and their specific relationship with God.)

Romans 11:25 "For I would not brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. " 26 "And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer."

Millennial Kingdom

I have already gone ahead and said in earlier postings that I think we are not taken from the earth before the tribulations that are to try the hearts of man (Rev. 6 -19). But that God will take His children, who have survived the trials leading up to Rev. 20:4, along with those who have died in years past, and at this point we will rule and reign with Him during a millennium period. That I feel there is a physical seven-year tribulation period (Rev. 13) that we will go through. That for three and one-half years there will be a sense of peace when actually the beast will gently - yet calculatingly be leading people into the next phase of the tribulation period. That Rev. 13:11 signifies the next phase and that Satan will demand that He be worshiped as God. At this point there will be those who are persecuted and killed for not worshiping the image of the beast (Rev. 13:15). This will greatly reduce the number of saints upon the earth but there will still remain those who manage to make it all the way through until Rev. 20.

I even said I thought there was a difference between the nations (heathens - unbelievers) in Rev. 20:3 and the saints whose souls, live and rule with Jesus in Rev. 20:4. That the "dead" mentioned in Rev. 20:5 are those who are "dead" spiritually. And will remain "dead" spiritually until the millennial period is over. That some will make it through I feel is proved by Rev. 20:9 when we read of the "saints" who dwell in the camp, the beloved city. The saints will be those who will step into life - into a relationship with Jesus at the end of the thousand years. Those who are deceived will be burned and devoured by God (Rev. 20:9).

So Jay now asks us - His exact words are - "What scriptural proof can we bring to the discussion that tells us that there is in fact a thousand year millennium kingdom to come?" As Jay shared in one of his letters to the list that almost all of my opinions on these scriptures are due to visions the Lord has given me. I have taken them and applied them to scripture the best I could. But now he asks a question that the Lord has shown me nothing on and in my research of the Bible I find nothing regarding the millennium except for Rev. But what does come to mind is a discussion I had years ago - that after the fullness of the Gentiles that Israel would once again be restored - put into a right relationship with God. I based that on the Romans 11:16 - 36 passages. No one agreed with me then. But now I am wondering if God put that lesson aside for me so that I could include it in this discussion.

I have shared that I thought the millennial kingdom would be restored into a similar situation as it was before the birth of Jesus. No Satanic activity amongst the nations (Rev. 20:3), no life (spirit-filled) relationships with Jesus either (Rev. 20:5). That the reason God stresses Gog and Magog and the beloved city was to get our focus back on the "root" the "lump" (Romans 11:17), Israel, so that the words written in Romans 11:25-26 may be fulfilled. That when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then the blindness shall be removed from Israel. This millennial kingdom may be the time set aside by the Lord to bring back the Israelites into the relationship He promised them. After the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.

The difference this time is that they won't be waiting for the Messiah they will know that He is alive. The fact that some will still not accept Jesus when Satan is released again is not so unbelievable when you remember the attitude of the Israelites after only a few short months of passing through the Red Sea.

Jay also says this in his last letter to us - "We have been reminded below of the Revelation 20 and 21 scriptures that there will be a new heaven and a new earth AFTER the 1000 year reign. What does that do to our understanding of what we have been taught of the millennial kingdom to come after the Second Coming?"

If we follow the order of Rev. 20 and 21 then our new and final destination takes place after the millennial kingdom. Those who are part of the first resurrection - those who have died in prior years in the Lord - those who will die during the tribulation period, those who will step right into the Rev. 20:4 environment and those who will accept Jesus during the millennial years. The New Jerusalem that I have seen for years is the mountain, the city of living stones, and the bride. The New Jerusalem is made up of all of these word illustrations. Words created so that our minds can comprehend the new environment. Our new and final home is a physical experience - it is power and beauty and fellowship with God. I don't think the greatest poet could do justice by using words to describe what our "New Jerusalem" will feel or look like.

Blessings, Arlette


Super post Arlette and what I think that we can use to close out any discussion on a thousand years to come. There has been discussion on what we might think that the millennium will be but it is based upon conjecture from our understanding of the Bible and not from the scriptures themselves as to a millennium to come.

Unless there is another that can point to a scripture in the Bible that proves that there is a thousand year period to come in the future, there aren't any. There are scriptures that point to a millennium period of a thousand years. There are many scriptures that point to a time of peace and an earthly kingdom where Jesus will rule. There are others that speak of the resurrections and different events to happen that will be between this thousand years period. I have not found any and neither have you and I know that you have dug into it even more than I have. No one else has come forward either.

Although we know that there is a thousand year period, the Bible leaves it open as to when exactly that is. If we are to spiritualize events in the past present or future as to what may come to pass or has already been fulfilled, we could come up with any combination of millennial interpretations. For me and I know for most of us here, we will remain pre-millennial but does it really matter? No, because we are part of a restoration that precludes any thinking one way or another. As long as we know that there will be a remnant that God has called to the restitution of all things and we are a part of that, whatever follows that process is not important. It may be important in the long run as to what will really happen but that is part of God's plan that has nothing to do with what we are doing, it comes later or not at all depending on His viewpoint, not ours.

We may disagree with the events to come but that is not important either. The important thing is that we are doing something together that will glorify Jesus in the kingdom that we are a part of right now. As long as we love each other and come together as one then we are fulfilling the prayer of Jesus no matter what we think on these things. I have had to come a long way for me to accept this for many things but our millennial positions has not been one of them. To divide over this issue will identify those that are not a part of what Jesus is doing through us.



The first resurrection is the spiritual quickening of the dead. This happened a the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. Where the bible tells us that he dead saints came out of there graves and were seen walking and talking in Jerusalem.

This is exactly what will happen before the first Judgment. This is to allow the spiritual saints to witness and convert non-believers to Christ. This is the prophecy of Daniel 12 and Revelation. After the first judgment the righteous will live with christ and the wicked will experience the first death.

The thousand years peace is to redeem mankind back to the original spiritual state of adam and eve.


What a truly wonderful God we serve. He will effectively give us the descendants and Adam & Eve the original choice, to serve him and not eat of the tree of good and evil. That is the reason for Satan's release, to play the final temptation.

Mankind and Adam & Eve will then know not to listen to the liar, because by experience we will know the wages of sin is death. Then Satan and the wicked will be destroyed forever. This is the second and final spiritual death. This is the prophecy of Isaiah "and death and hell will be swallowed up". This is the removal of the tree of good and evil forever.

Then will come the prophecy of revelation 22, where mankind will finally be allowed to eat of the tree of life and become immortal forever, which was God's original plan. The concept of NO-TIME is difficult for us to imagine, but he angel in Daniel and Revelation swore it will come to pass. We may not understand all of the prophecies because of the allegory and parables used. Some of the prophecies are past, some present and some future. Also some of the prophecies relate to the battles in the spiritual world and will never happen physically and some are physical which we can identify.

In any event the time draws near when we will all be able to worship Christ in the Spirit, which he himself calls the first works in the early part of revelation. Even as John did say, "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day". This is what the early christians were able to do as they had received the Holy Ghost, we today have lost that. But thanks we to God it will soon return.

Christ is the One. In hebrew the word for one is Achad. Jesus Christ said I am the Way the Truth and the Life. Using the first letters of each hebrew word ie Darek-Way, Chai-Life, Emeth-Truth we get Achad. He literaly said, I am the one.

God bless


Hi Carl,

It's not clear here if you are speaking of the millennium as being in effect now or later. I agree with your basic premise but am having trouble with understanding the conclusions. You mention that the first resurrection is the spiritual quickening of the dead resulting from the cross, then say that this is exactly what will happen (I take it to mean again) before the first judgment (later). We could take this to mean that there is the physical and the spiritual and they could be taken to mean two "firsts," but you would need to clarify that. Also you mention that the thousand years peace is to redeem mankind back to the original spiritual state of adam and eve. This was dealt with at the cross and considered in the past or at least in the present as a continuing process. When Jesus said that "it is finished," we should not project a finished work into the future unless those are somehow the same time. Time is a hard concept. What I see here on this point is an a-millennial position. Not that I think it is wrong, for I don't know but it is clear that if the redemption process is to be or has been fulfilled in the church age that we are living in now that it would be unnecessary in a future period.

It is good that you are stimulating some questions but see if you could get back to me with a slightly modified approach that we could all accept as to the finished work of redemption.

I have not yet put away the belief in the pre millennial position so this is where I think that we can come into full agreement on. As far as your position in the millennium, you go on to say that it is in the future by using such verbs as give us and will then know. Essentially, what I think that you are saying here is that the thousand year reign of peace is like a purging period where we will be able to worship God in the spirit. We are able to do that right now but you are right in that "we" have lost that as a group. Many of us already have learned to pray in the spirit and I am not referring to the speaking on tongues although that may indeed be a part. Many of have been in the spirit just like John but there is coming a time that Joel's prophecy will be restored just like you say, like what we have lost in the purity and power of the early church. God will be pouring out His spirit upon all flesh and I can not see that ever happening in the past with this magnitude not matter what the scoffers say. It will be like nothing we have ever imagined and I am still looking forward to the day. I believe that this is part of the restoration process that we are a part of right now that will usher in the millennium, not be limited to it. We do need to emphasize the worship of spirit and truth but as the ones involved in that restitution, we have to do that now, before Jesus comes. Many of us already have that present hope and it must be shared with others. This is one of the things that He is waiting for us to do before He can come for His Bride.

The millennium purging that you mentioned is what many accept and many reject. I accept it like you do but know that it is only conjecture. What it amounts to is the Catholic idea of purgatory where there is the triumphant church in heaven, the militant church here on earth and the expectant church, which is waiting that first resurrection and will populate the earth during the thousand years. Prayers for those in purgatory are projected toward the future, not in the present as many suppose. Those that cannot accept re-incarnation will have trouble with this but those in the grave will rise up just like Jesus and be re-incarnated just like the ones that you mention of the dead saints coming up out of the ground. I have no trouble with this type of re-incarnation, but it does not include the type of thinking of others that our spirits are re-incarnated into other persons and we live new lives in this age. The scriptures are clear:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I like what you said about the Hebrew word ACHAD. If it was in Greek, I could look it up and verify it but I know no Hebrew. I would like to put that on one of my pages if I could prove it authentic and exactly as you say it here to be. Can you help me with a reference on that.



Hi Jay

What you have to accept is the words of both Christ and Paul. To some is given to Know (i.e. the mysteries of God) and to others it's not given to know. To them I speak in parables but to you openly.

When Jesus said it is finished, that was the completion of his physical and spiritual work. We have to take up or cross and complete the same work, faith without work is dead see James.

The period between the first death and second death, 1000 years peace is not for redemption, but a period of choice. That was the same test as in genesis, this is in keeping with the Law of God. Everything that was, is and will be again. Lord God Almighty which was and is and is to come.

Yes we can now pray in the spirit, but we have not received the final baptism, which will open our eyes to behold God. Even as Isaiah said, To lead the blind in a way which they have not, to bring the prisoner out of the dungeon. The prisoner is our souls, which are subject to death. Psalm 23 explains this beautifully. Though I walk through the valley of Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil.

This millennium will bring the great tribulation to it's climax. Also it will bring the fulfillment of Joel. Old men shall dream dreams and young men see visions. This is the holy ghost that will descend shortly.

The word ACHAD is the anagram taken from the words of Jesus in mathew, where he said, I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one goes to the father but by me. I do not propose to have all the answers, however Revelation makes it clear that the souls of the righteous which died for christ are not yet fully in heaven. But are under the altar of God, see the fifth seal. This I believe links in with the same souls spoken of in Daniel 12, who will arise to teach many about God, and shall turn many to righteousness.

My belief is that reincarnation is real. But I do not know how it works. God only hold the keys to it. This is hinted at when Jesus said many of you shall not taste of death until I return. Also it is hinted at when Jesus said, when a evil spirit leaves this world, it walks in dry places and then goes and take seven more evil spirits and re-enters its old house(body)and makes it more corrupt. This as explained in Judaism is the mystery of the 49 days of counting the omer. There is 49 gates to enlightenment, in one direction and 49 gates to damnation in the other direction (ie 7x7=49).

In my opinion this is where many christians lack the understand of God and Christ. Some of the answers are to be found in Judaism. Take for instance, The Lord, the Lord merciful and Just. And Longsuffering and forgiving all iniquity and sin. But who by no means acquit the guilt. The rabbi's explain this as universal tikkun or Karma. What you do return to you, until you learn to correct yourself and consciously avoid making the same mistakes over and over again. Peter speaks a lot about this in warning us to avoid the evil habits, that are naturally apart of our human nature. This is part of being born again, meaning to change ourselves.

As I said no one knows all the answers, but I am sure that Christ is pleased that we are asking the difficult questions and seeking the truth. For if our hearts are pure this will ultimately lead us to christ. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be open.

Blessed be his name


Great Carl, Thanks for the clarification.


Hello, Jay......

Peace to you and yours, and love from us...

What is that kingdom to come?
There is the kingdom that came, which is the Word that's in us now. There is also a kingdom to come, [physical,] and then last, everything made new, without sin and death, which will endure forever because of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:20-23, 20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Is there a kingdom to come on earth for a thousand years?
We have been in a kingdom for two thousand years, the kingdom of Light, which is the Word, which is spirit, which is life....

The Kingdom within us now:
St. John 12: 27-28, 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Below, St. John chapter 17:1-8 cross references the above St. John 12:27-28, when referring to God glorifying Jesus, as well as, cross referencing Ephesians 1:20-23 when referring to giving Jesus power over everything. Jesus gives us the reasons why we believe, and what is revealed to us because of the consequences of believing. Jesus tells us, it is because of receiving the words God gave to Him to give to us, that we come to believe that Jesus came out from God, and that God sent Him. In short, it is the Word which reveals to us who He is, [lol.. of course I would guess, being none of us were there, not to mention, that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of the Lord].

St. John 17:1-8, 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Once having received the Word, we are given power to become the sons of God. St. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The power is choice, now having received Him, even to them that believe on His name, [accept that God did send Him,] we have power now to make choices based on that revealing of the choices to us. Ephesians 2:11-13, 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Jesus' death brought the Light to the world, the Light is the Word, the Word is spirit, and the spirit is Life.

St. John 6: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. This is the kingdom within us now, a house, [church,] built for God, by grace,[Light,] through faith, [trust]. 2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

The Thousand Year Reign
Clearly we read in Revelation 20:4-6, that judgment is passed for them that will reign with Jesus on earth in the thousand year reign, when Revelation 20:4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them." Which the judgment is now passes because they had overcome which then there judgment is, "They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The misunderstanding here I think, is that this thousand reign is thought to be the kingdom to come. Depending on how one sees, there is a new heaven and a new earth where God Himself dwells on earth with us in Revelation chapter 21. Right after the new heaven and a new earth, the Kingdom of Heaven comes down prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, Revelation 21:2.

This thousand year reign is for the purpose of changing the way man has thought, but also blinding them. Notice that it says that they who are, "The souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands," that they are them who cannot be hurt by the second death, [Revelation 20:6,]. This second death is the last test, [overcoming,] that man will have to endure, when, "satan is loosened out of his prison, and goes out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle." After that, everyone that is left, the sea's dead, ect.... are judged of the books, [law - Romans 2:11-16,] and the book of life, [Lambs book of life,], and whosoever is not found in the book of life, is cast into the lake of fire. Notice, that even though they are judged by the books that were opened along with the book of life, but that they can only enter in if they are found written in the Lambs book.

This Kingdom, the thousand year reign, is not the kingdom in the end which is forever.

The Kingdom Forever:
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Or are we already in it as far as it goes and we only wait for the heavenly calling? The calling is now, which is spiritual, which Jesus said: St. Luke 17:20-21, 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. This would suggest that we will not see it with our eyes, or does it ? In fact, it is really saying, that when the end comes, you'll know, you wont have to seek it, it is coming to you, and there's no escape, [1 Thessalonians 5:3,] the will be nothing like this event in all the history of man, God will shake the earth, and not only earth, but heaven also, [St. Matthew 24:29, & St. Mark 13:25, etc... ] But my favorite is: Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Notice that the Pharisees, demanded of Jesus, "when the kingdom of God should come." So Jesus says that as soon as we are with Him, the physical Kingdom begins, and as below, "So shall we ever be with the Lord."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the statement that Paul makes concerning the end, [or beginning,] and this is confirming Jesus' statement above, that this kingdom to come, you cannot find, it will be neither here nor there.

Thanks Jay.............


Jay you are doing some good thinking. You are correct that there is a spiritual resurrection to those who get into Christ. Paul said we were dead in trespasses and sins. The Jews were dead under the law for the strength of sin is the law. But Jesus was the liberator to both the Jew then to the Greek or Gentile.

When the Bible uses the statement quick and the dead it simply means those who accepted Jesus and his word were quickened and partook of life, those who were not stayed in a spiritually dead condition. There are many verses to prove spiritual death while alive in the flesh.

Now concerning the resurrection, this is a revelation the Lord gave me several months ago on the truth of that doctrine. There is a resurrection at the beginning of the millennial which can be found during the time of the sounding of the 7th trumpet in revelation or Paul refers to it as the last trump. That is the 7th and last trump to sound that puts Jesus over this earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The first resurrection is also called the resurrection of the just by Jesus himself. It is also called good. This entire group is the Bride of christ not just 144,000 as many believe. There is no such term applied to the 144,000. Then the rest of the dead in Rev 20.8 live not until the 1000 years were finished is rightly termed the general resurrection of that of those who still are unjust or who still have damnation abiding over their life as a result of Adam's fall. What they do when they resurrect at that time will determine their final destiny. I believe even the fallen angels, except for Satan will be given a chance for salvation.

When God touches our minds and let's us see things it is so clear we wonder why we didn't see it before. To be quite frank almost ALL Christian preachers do not teach nor understand the truth on even the basics of salvation. If we let our saints go on before hand to judgment now we will resurrect if we die before Jesus comes during the sounding of the 7th trumpet. My guess is sometime within 22-32 years from now.

There are so many things that hang on us because we were taught something wrong. I have cast all my past indoctrination at the feet of Jesus. Now I am receiving more light than I ever dreamed before. Not everything I was taught was wrong but more wrong than right. The same is true for almost all Christians whether they think so or not.

Keep going. Someone like yourself who longs and yearns to know someday will know. I have had one little comment from a person open up whole new lines of teaching..

God Bless. This is the truth on the resurrections. Now I am still weighing and considering what happens to people when the natural body dies. Do they sleep or are in an unconscious state of being until they receive their body back in the resurrection. Or does their soul move out alive into a place of waiting?? The other thing I am still weighing is the question if people ascend to 3rd heaven where God dwells at the coming of Jesus or is being caught up in the air with Jesus mean they are resurrected with Jesus at His coming and inherit as joint heirs with him, their kingdom here on earth? Rev, 5 it clearly stated that a people from all nations peoples kindred and tongues shall rule and reign with Christ on the earth not in heaven.. This obviously includes we Gentiles while Rev 7 is Jews.

I have not concluded if the group in Rev 7 and Rev 14 are one of the same. Anyhow, keep stirring the pot. That is the way truth is revealed my brother..



Hi Gary,

What you say here is basically my views as I see it at the present. The part that you are working on, we discussed some time ago in that there is a difference in the sanctification of believers and salvation itself. Of course all believers are saved but we are taught that sanctification it is a process. If salvation was such an automatic thing, why would Jesus say "he that endureth to the end shall be saved?" (Matt. 10:22, Mark 13:13.)

It is my firm conviction that when we truly saved, we enter into eternal life now. We all know that many who think that they are saved are not but we are not the judge of those matters, God is. We know that God is the God of the living, not the dead. If the saints are alive in heaven now, which most of us believe, it is not so hard to understand that they are not limited to time, they are not only there now but always have been, it is us that are limited to time that we could consider as time. True saints in the full sense of the word are not subject to judgment, at least in the sense of condemnation, Jesus tells us in John 3:18 that "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." that means upon physical death, the spirit is indeed translated immediately, at least in my understanding. It is those that are dead that will be judged but if it is only a judgment of non-believers, then where lies the judgment? There must be a difference of those that are truly sanctified and not under judgment and those that will be judged, yet also pass into eternal life, or at least an earthly existence in the millennium. This may give us a clue as to understanding the kingdom to come but the Bible is not yet making it clear, they are more parables that are only understood by those that God has given to know. I pray that He would get around to me.

These are only my views as to how I have worked them out for right now, everything we believe should be subject to testing and refining.

Consider this, in Revelation 11:18, which is positioned between what we believe as mid-trib when the two witnesses will be taken up and the persecution of the manchild is this verse: "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." This cannot be a resurrection judgment from physical death but in a spiritual sense, which is what you are saying.

One step at a time.



No, I am saying that the resurrection of the just or those In Rev 11.18 include all the faithful from the Old and New periods even down to our time. This is when they get their natural bodies back here on this earth.

This is when the meek inherit the earth and the apostles begin to sit on 12 thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, this is the resurrection of the last day in JN 11 that Mary and Martha thought Lazarus would resurrect in the first place.

Jesus is coming back as the Messiah to Israel but King of Kings and Lord of Lords to the church. This is the time Abraham Issac and Jacob will sit down with the 12 apostles in the kingdom and those evil leaders who opposed Jesus will not be in it but cast out and they won't be back until the resurrection of the unjust Rev 20.8. You know the commercial for Fram, pay me now or pay me later?? Well those people who rejected Jesus will now have to resurrect at the end of the millennial and humble themselves then or be lost eternally in the lake of fire..

Jay, this is really clear and exciting when you see the Bible hookup on it. There are a lot of expressions in the Bible that we can easily form the wrong impression such as a throne was set in heaven Rev 4. That doesn't mean third heaven but a throne is simply a seat of power.

I have another thought on the two witnesses in Rev 11. When the expression is used, caught up, it doesn't again have to be caught up into 3rd heaven. But one can be caught up into a cloud of glory here on this earth. Or caught up like Paul said we have been made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This is why I am trying to sort out the fact if anyone ascends literally into heaven where Jesus dwells or it simply means to ascend into a sphere of glory right here on this earth.

In terms of he that endureth to the end shall be saved again you have to study how the word salvation and saved is often used in scripture. The Bible said that Israel was saved out of the hand of the Philistines.

If you get the setting and context of what Jesus is saying in Mt 10 and MK 13 Jesus isn't speaking about personal salvation from sin but enduring through all kinds of suffering, persecution, and opposition. Jesus is saying if those apostles endure all that they will be saved through it all.

I agree with you that when the seed of the word of God takes root and conception in our heart and soul we are saved right then and inherit eternal life as long as we abide in that word.

Jesus said the apostles were sanctified through his word. Or set apart not in the sense of sanctified meaning to cleanse. Jesus sanctified his apostles from all those religious leaders of his day. He called them out from among them and made them his royal priesthood. The verse where it says many are called but few or chosen has been quoted over and over by Gentile preachers and it doesn't apply to us at all. Jesus called many of disciples in his day but only 12, or few were chosen to be apostles.

I don't want to sound arrogant but I understand most of Jesus parables and how to apply them in the proper context. Most all of the parables apply to Israel or to Jesus disciples in his day not us..

I have been asking and praying for the Lord to show me where we Gentiles fit in the plan at the end time because we have taken verses that apply to the Jews and not us at all. I know we have a place but I want to base my faith on the right verses that apply to us and not verses that apply to the Jews..

Anyhow, keep up your good study I perceive God's hand dealing with you Jay..

Oh by the way I have a different spin of the 2 witnesses in Rev 11. Use a little logic. Many have said it is Moses and Elijah. Or hence the law and the prophets. But they did not torment the Gentiles as Rev 11 says those witnesses did.

Some say it is figurative of a restored church, some say it is natural Jews. But tell me how it can be natural people because it no way would anyone permit dead bodies to just lie around in the street.

The 2 witnesses are also called the 2 olive trees. They are referred to as the anointed ones. Now here is a clue. What has been a torment to the Gentiles for centuries? Can't be Jesus because Gentiles embraced him while the Jews rejected him. So what is it? What has been a burdensome stone to Gentile nations? Just think on it I will give you a key the answer is in the Book of Zechariah...

cheers Gary..

The Eternity of Religion.

[Heb. 1:8].---'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.'

Every one admits that religion has been a great power in the past ; but many think it is decaying, and that it has already dwindled to be merely a subordinate factor in the world's interests and motives. We confidently assert that the rein of God is to be without end, and will be more and more recognized as the supreme and dominating human interest.

Our confidence in the eternity of religion rests, not on our knowledge of future happenings, but on our rational assurance that a certain spiritual and moral quality is the essence of the universe in which we live, of which we form an organic part, and from which our own deepest spiritual nature takes its origin. We are ready to admit many and serious difficulties and objections ; but we cling to our conviction because it is the only positive and luminous working hypothesis that brings agreement into our rational life and enables us to act. The good man is not one who never has a doubt ; but he is one who determines to act, in spite of all difficulties, upon the theory that righteousness ought to control ; and he waits for objections to disappear of themselves while he does his duty hour by hour.

The Kingdom of God is everlasting because men are created by the God of eternal life for His glory, and men can rest only in Him. Priests did not invent religion ; but religion created priests and churches and altars ; and as religion---God's life in man---grows with the spirit of humanity, it calls for better priests, prophets, creeds, churches, and it creates them.

There can never come a time, in any world, where by any possibility justice, love, faith, and hope will not be the supreme good of intelligent spirits. 'Now abideth faith, hope, love.' If we are to trust reason at all, even to expose errors in religious creeds, we must assume that righteousness is at the foundation of the world-order.

The Kingdom of God is eternal ; but are the institutions of religion abiding? Is the Church to last? That depends on whether the particular Church in question is serving the righteousness required by the ages.

Humanity learns to dress in furs in Greenland ; wears light fabrics in India. Its garments are changed for changing seasons. Humanity builds churches and altars to meet its needs ; old furniture which gets in the way is cut to new patterns or stored in museums in grateful memory of bygone services to revered ancestors. But institutions are not wholly lost, even when discarded. Each age is a child of all that precedes. Christ came not to destroy but to fulfill. The sapling is merged in the tree ; streams flow into a river ; the mortal will put on immortality. In the physical, matter and force are transformed, never annihilated ; nothing is cast aimless to the void ; all experience is utilized ; tears become pearls.

In Christ, Timothy.



I appreciate your response in regards to the body not dividing over positions. We must come to truly see that we are the body of Christ, and that he is not divided.

The one comment that I will make for now in regards to the book of Revelations is that the book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. So often Christians forget that the book is emphasizing the revealing of Christ. This is the true intent of the Book, that Christ may be revealed in his church. There is much in that book, and all the books for that matter that I cannot fully put my hand on. However, the greatest impact that the Lord has ever made is that the scripture testifies of Christ, John 5:43. In Hebrews, he declares he comes in the volume of the book. It is written of him. If we as Christians would come to understand that the Bible is written of Christ we would probably come to a greater comprehension of what is being said.

Anyway, may the light of him increase.

In Jesus,

Brother Wayne

Hello JAY.....
Peace to you and yours, and love from us...
It's been so long since I've studied little things, I had forgotten it said the true worshipers would worship in spirit and truth.

I was kinda blown away because I live in the spirit, not to the things earthly, and that I could be even considered a true worshiper, and I weep at the thought that God would even acknowledge me as a son. Then another tear, for wondering if I may have part in changing eyes to see the spirit.

Right out of the hat, we are not even to look at the coming as when, or what exactly is to come, but what was spoken was so that we know it will come. Pauls expression of the end times was more about why the end will or will not over take us, rather than what it is coming. We have no example of the physical kingdom, just the spiritual one, and the spiritual one is within us, not here or there, but within you now.

There are three watches, and one resurrection to the physical coming.

No one sleeps any longer since Jesus rose again, remember the man railed along side, "This day you will be with me in paradise."

The first watch, [St. Mark 13:33-37 & St. Luke 12:37-40,] is Revelation 3:10, the second is Revelation 7:14-15, and the last is between Revelation 10:6 - Revelation 20:5, and all these are them who are washed by the Lamb, not the same as Revelation 20:12-15,] who are judged.

Some may disagree and say that we are all judged, but if we have received the new robe, judgment is passed, we are made clean, that is the judgment, for it is the word that judges.

Some could not overcome for the first watch and they who did overcome are the saints, [5 talents made ten,]. The second are they which believe in Jesus Christ but they could not overcome but would not deny, [2 Talents made 4,]. The third are them that were there when all the world was revealed God, and were beheaded for the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. These last have the strongest test, thus, they cannot be hurt by the second death. Remember, the first will come last, and the last will come first.

If you post this Jay, and it causes division, please take it down, these things do not matter against Christ crucified.......

Thanks... jesuswon


I said in a previous e-mail that I would like to answer one of your letters. This is the one. First let me say, I do not have all the answers to all of your questions, but like you I am seeking the Lord, for he desires to reveal the truth to his saints. I can concur with you on the losing of our sacred cows. It has been six or seven years for me now, since my sacred cows began to be destroyed, and I thank God for he desires the truth and only the truth in his body.

In reference to the resurrection, I believe you are right on target in your conclusion. As you have quoted a portion of 1 Corinthians 15, one other part would I point out. 1 Cor 15:35-38 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Notice here that Paul asks what body, singular, do they come. We all came first in the body of Adam or the natural man, which is the body of sin. In the resurrection we come in the body of Christ, and not the natural body or sin, but the Spiritual which is life. Also, notice that every seed his own body. Jesus said to Nicodemus that which is born of the flesh is flesh. This is dealing with the flesh seed, the natural man. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. This is now dealing with the Spiritual man. We see the same thing layed out in 1 Cor as in John 3, natural and spiritual. We become part of the spiritual through being born of the Seed of God, which is Christ (John 1:13, I Peter 1:23).

Now let us consider what Jesus said to Martha when Lazurus had died. John 11:25-26 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus proclaims himself to be the resurrection. See we are baptized into his death, buried with him, and raised up in him (Romans 6). He is the Spiritual man as declared in 1 Corinthians 15, the second man is the Lord from heaven. This man is spiritual, not the first. We are raised a spiritual man, in Christ, who is now our life. Hallelujah. He himself is life. He said he came to give life, and he said he is life. The life that he gives us is himself. We are in him, his body. Hallelujah!! This is the resurrection from the dead. For in Adam all die. We have been made alive in Christ, the new man, where ALL THINGS ARE NEW!

Jay, the mystery here is that all things that are new are in Christ. IN Christ is the spiritual, not the natural. This is where we have our confusion is that we have to divide the spiritual from the natural, and the only way to divide is by Christ. The new heaven and the new earth are in Christ. Hallelujah!. John saw the new Jerusalem coming out of God as a bride adorned for her husband. This is definitely the church, as Paul declares we are to be married to another in Romans 7 to bring fruit unto God.

Let us look at the following scriptures in Isaiah.
Isa 65:17-19 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Here we see God says he creates a new heaven and a new earth, and what he is creating is Jerusalem a rejoicing. In Hebrews 12 the writer declares that we have come unto Mt. Zion the Heavenly Jerusalem. We have come to the rejoicing of the Lord. I know this may seem out there but I ask that we consider this view.

One other thing, in I Corinthians 15, you indicated the following scriptures. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Look at 2 Peter below very closely. We are changed through his divine nature. Here is how we escape corruption, by putting on his divine nature. 2 Pet 1:2-4 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Also, you asked is the Kingdom here. Absolutely, the Kingdom of God is within you. As you stated Jesus said he would eat no more of the fruit of the vine until he eats it new in the Kingdom. The old vine was Israel in the natural. In John 15, Jesus declares he is the vine and we are the branches to bring forth fruit. This is the fruit of the Spirit declared in Galatians and again declared in Revelations for the healing of the Nations. It was also spoke of in the book of Ezekiel. He stands at the door and knocks to sup with us and we with him. What a beautiful thing that we can eat of the fruit that Christ himself has brought forth. He said if a corn of wheat dies it brings forth much fruit. (John 12:19-24). He died to bring his fruit (nature, character) in us. As also said in John 12 the Son of Man must be glorified. He is glorified in us, for he died to bring many sons unto glory, his glory. This is the much fruit. Again in John 15 Jesus said when we bear fruit then is the Father glorified. The Father is glorified in the fruit of the Son in us his church.

I will seek to write this out a little plainer. I truly love sharing Christ and being shared with of him. I love him more than anything. He is my life, and I fully appreciate you the brethren, for we are all of one. I know I haven't answered all of the questions in regards to Revelations, but I pray that the light of Christ brings the answer in our hearts.

In Jesus,

Brother Wayne

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