Jesus Come Quickly Anyway - Rapture Discussion

February 15, 2000

There is not entire agreement on the rapture issue and there will not be until the time comes when the church is taken up at whatever time that God has decided and in whatever manner. As you know I used to teach a pre-trib rapture until I was convinced by scripture that it was in error and leading the church into a false security. What I want to emphasize that it really should not matter unless that false security is leading to ineffectual action and witness in the world. This is not a foundational doctrine or a nature of Christ issue that exposes heretics but it may however divide us. For those that want to make a contention out of the issue, it would seem that they will not be part of the restoration process or the final unity anyway because that will take love and humility.

The restitution of all things has started in the minds of hearts of those that have been called to bring it about and that it will not be completed until after the Times of the Gentiles are over. That means during the tribulation period, many of us will be a part of it no matter when Jesus takes the saints and the Bride needs to be readied. For those of you that believe that we will be here and those of us that believe that we will not be, I can only ask that each of us act as if each of us will be together until the Lord comes and that we can work side by side in the harvest.

Anyone that believes that either side of the rapture issue is promoting heresy should from now on look at it from a perspective of love. The same goes from millennial points of view. I will be taking a softer stance on the rapture issue for the sake of the brethren, I suggest that we all do that. Heretic bashing is something that this group is learning about, many words have been said that should not have been said and it is a learning process for all of us.

The amount of material on the issue is taking time for me to put together but everything that can be said has been said and then some so we can move on. There was only two responses to my question last time about why the pre-trib rapture theory is so prevalent, one came from Dean, who like myself is studying church history. He is miles ahead of me though, or should I say a furlong (his last name). He mentions that it started in the 19th century, I found a source that has only recently traced it to the 18th, but not much difference there.

For the next issue that we should discuss I am leaving up to you. Possibly we can take on several issues at once unless they are as complicated as this last one. I have a few things on my mind: Reason or faith is one (I believe in both), the Sabbath day or the Lord's day is another (I believe in either), liberals and conservatives (I believe that the actual words have been misunderstood), the millennial question, the difference between salvation and sanctification, Calvinism or Arminianism, philosophy, psychology, and many more that I am sure that you could come up with. There are all kind of issues that we can find with controversies that should keep us discussing these things until the Lord comes, or at least until we all disappear.


Hey Jay...

I have never found evidence of a pre-trib rapture.... in Rev. 14: 14-20 we have the two-fold harvest... one for the Son of Man and another for the wrath of God....

In Rev. 13 (verses 7 and 10) we find the saints at war with Satan and having patience in tribulation.... how can there be saints if there is no church?

These are just a few of the many difficult passages which point to a mid-trib rapture instead of a pre-trib rapture.

I also find it a very convenient theory... considering the persecution of the church world wide it is really a travesty....

Well... had to toss in my two cents.....

Mark O.

Hi Jay

Interesting question…why do so many people hold the pre trib….i have a few suggestions….it began in the 19th century at a time when a lot of new doctrines began…(ie like the Adventists, Campbellites, Cooneyites, Mormons). England at the time saw the rise of liberal theology, and Christians were wide open to a new system that would return to a 'more literal' method of interpretation and hold back the forces of modernism. The Plymouth Brethren in England felt that they were returning to a more apostolic church pattern. There were some good men among them like George Muller, and it was a sincere effort to return to church unity which unfortunately soon went into error and further schism. It seems that Darby was probably looking for some new teaching to provide more of an identity to the new movement and to further distinguish it from 'Christendom'. He found that in the pre trib rapture. Darby was famous for creating controversy and for the power politics which plunged the brethren into a split that remains to this day. He disfellowshipped anyone who would stand in his way and those faithful to him became very exclusive to the point of cultism. (I don't know if you have many 'exclusive brethren' in the USA….there are still some here in the UK….and they believe that if you wear a tie or live in an apartment, or eat with someone not in the exclusives, that you are a false Christian.) However the doctrine never really gained a foothold in this country outside of the Brethren and old style Pentecostal churches. Not to say it was never popular…the more moderate Brethren called the Open Brethren became a major force in British evangelicalism up to about the 1960's. They were the most active in evangelism and bible study and a lot of Christians were part of it. Then in the '60's they all got filled with the Spirit, dropped the dispensationalism and joined the British Restorationalist movement (Charismatic…ever heard of Arthur Wallace…he was one of the major guys in the early years). Now the Open Brethren are pretty much dead, apart from a few die hards. It seems that dispensationalism came to America later but a similar trend towards liberal theology was developing in the US which was to lead to the famous 'monkey trials'. Once Scofield incorporated it into his notes it was just a matter of time until people unconsciously accepted it. I also suspect at the time that fundamentalists wanted a more 'American' approach to theology and so, like with Darby, this began to provide an identity for American fundamentalist Baptists. I suspect too that the Pentecostals were lured in by what claimed to be a more literal and fundamentalist interpretation. It has also fit in well with 'easy believism' which seems to have such a grip in American at the moment (for those wondering I have spent a lot of time in America and will be moving across the pond soon so I am speaking from experience and not what I have heard). As to why people hold it….that has confused me for a long time…I know we are all subject to deception but how can people swallow something that is so obviously contrary to all Scripture. When I hear people defending it all they do is use questionable texts and yet they have a passion about it as though they don't doubt it for one minute….. It is a comfortable doctrine, and to question it hurts the flesh. 'Let's all just 'accept Jesus' and then everything will be alright. You will get whisked away before the trouble starts and you will have an eternity in heaven. And of course don't worry if your love grows cold and you fall away cuz you have 'eternal security'. Just keep coming to church anyway and live how you want.' Well praise God for the five fold ministry that is waking up the bride to put on the armour of light and be ready to overcome in these days. Did anyone out there read Rick Joyner's vision of the Harvest? I would like to address the questions put forward: 1) Explain why Jesus tells us that no one knows the day or the hour of His coming but the Father alone. During the time of His second Coming, this world is in so much chaos, there is not going to be much of a surprise at all.

Let me turn it around….if the pre trib is true…everyone who has read Left Behind will know that the second coming is in 7 years. Also the second coming is not meant to come as a surprise to us who are children of light…we do not know the exact time but we know the season. We are not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief.

2) Why has God consistently brought His people to safety every time, prior to any calamity? ie.. Noah, Lot, etc

God will take us up so that we are not judged with the world when Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that love not God. But we are promised persecutions. I believe that we can claim deliverance or choose to obtain a better resurrection and remain in it.

3) During the time of the millennium, the Earth is repopulated. If Believers, are resurrected at His Second Coming, who populates the Earth during the millennium?

Are you denying that the saints receive their new body at the last trumpet?

4) Can non pre-trib Believers explain John 14:2-3? No one is denying the rapture.

5) Rev 19:11 clearly describes the Second Coming. In verse 14 the armies of heaven are following. The armies of heaven are the Believers

The great cloud of witnesses?

Please notice the lack of explicit reference and reliance on questionable deduction in the texts used by the writer (nothing personal Tony) About the church person said that two fathers taught the doctrine...they didn't...two may appear to but in context they don't (which I would be glad to show if someone mentions where these quotations are from). Someone recently brought out a book to try and show that the fathers taught the pre trib but the quotes are dishonest and out of context. Once again look forward to the next instalment.

In Christ


Latter Rain Discussion Archives

The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers

As One Body

  • We prepare for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb
  • Harvest the Fruit of the Latter Rain
  • Follow Him as the Army of the Lord into His Glory

Help To Prepare A Holy Bride!

Issue Oriented Discussion Newsletter

Index | Search This Site | Aristide.Org | The Latter Rain | Babylon the Great | The Kingdom | The Nicolaitans | Jezebel
The Baptism With the Holy Ghost | The Grand Delusion | World Trade Org | Liberation Theology | Jay Atkinson | Alphabetical Index