The Flora House

August 2, 2011

In the midst of these troubled economic times, I purchased a house a couple years ago to restore through ministry and find many parallels to the restoration to come. I would like to comment on some things, I now find a lot more agreement on economic issues than when I first started bringing them up in the nineties and since. Far-fetched as it sounds, I would like to invite Christians from anywhere in world to minister with me at this house that I am restoring to work for God's Kingdom, either here in Stockton or through those parallels. We, on the Latter Rain Page have borne witness, agreed in love, taken steps toward unity, and for the most part become friends. That is not to say, we have not witnessed a lot of kooks and divisive people but that is the way of the church. Many people have visited me over the years here in Stockton that simply wanted to meet me. On occasions, from out of state and one from the other side of the world, they stayed in my home, I helped them for free and they helped me out too. Bear with me, there are restoration principles here that I believe cannot be denied.  

One of the first positive things I heard after coming to Stockton in 1999, was that revival was to begin right here for California and beyond. Ministers told me of prophets coming through and pinpointing Stockton on the map and it touched my spirit. Long in coming, I still wait to see it and because of which, have resisted the opportunities to leave. I moved to Stockton from the San Francisco Bay area simply because we could buy a house here, in San Jose, we could scarcely afford rent. My family is here, I tried to get my Dad to help me with financing for a second home to fix up and sell at a profit. He was old and thought the prices were too high, too bad, by 2005, the prices tripled.

In 2006, interest only adjustable rate financing became so easy to get, I decided to find that fixer-upper and use the residents to help out in exchange for rent. This has been a life-long dream. The only thing affordable at the time were crumbling derelicts in run down neighborhoods with a hard resale. I could buy other houses in nicer neighborhoods but could not justify the incredible risk. I found a moderate house that needed a lot of work with an almost three hundred thousand dollar price tag and made a lower offer, the realtor laughed in my face and did not even submit it. It was at that time that I stretched out my hand at that house and asked the Lord to "bring these prices down" and stopped looking. Before I am accused of causing a world-wide economic crisis costing many millions of people their jobs, their homes and life savings, it was certainly prophetic, the housing bubble burst soon after.

I started writing against deregulation of the financial sector on my site in the nineties after the Savings and Loan crisis, no audience, that was before the latter rain list. I talked of a planned economy against supply side free-market exploitation and was rebuffed. Once we started our discussions, I accused the Christian Right as being under a strong delusion during insane political deceit, we had a lot of agreement on this but right-wingers called me all kinds of names. I preached against the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO and the New World Order. I warned that the American media were self-interest propagandists. I spoke out against Republicans and Democrats alike, when I denounced George W. Bush as a liar and ruining our country, I became an outcast in the prophetic community that I had endeared myself to, I did not retreat but did come out from them, and became bolder. The nation has had negative job growth since 2000 and getting worse, a belated "told you so" is no comfort since work dried up for me as well and I became heavily in debt vainly trying to dig myself out. Understanding economic theory can be quite complicated to average people like you and me yet it is not hard to understand that the people who are in the know about these things caused the problem and raked in billions for themselves. Pick up the movie "Inside Job," narrated by Matt Damon for a excellent understanding of what went on.

The American people did not create our debt, criminal banksters, rich people and corporations who do not pay taxes, concentrated wealth, out sourcing, corporate lobbyists, corrupt politicians, deregulation, bail-outs, wall street frauds, insurance companies and senseless wars did. The only people who are benefiting from this crisis are the ones that caused it but it is a stagnant, powerless and apathetic people that perpetuate it. Washington is now run by corporate rulers and the inevitable crisis will be economic ruin for the entire world. While I am pessimistic about this world system, I am optimistic about the Kingdom of God and believe that our restoration will be a positive thing. Everything you have is threatened by the elitist 1%, they are waging war against us all. We need change, not more preaching. Justice will only come through those called to this end-time restoration. An ignorant public turns a blind eye to war and exploitation with the delusion that this is the price of "freedom"; it is the price of ignorance and greed while we degenerate into a banana republic. Supporting an ungodly mammon system is turning hearts against God's Kingdom and adds nothing but more confusion, because as we all get poorer, the super rich get a free ride and blackened hearts admire that. Believe me, judgment is coming for them before all others unless He finds repentance.

I should paint a rosy picture of Stockton if you really want to come here, but that comes mostly with its thorns. We are number one at being dead last. Tipping the first domino, Stockton was ground zero for the mortgage crisis. Forbes magazine has consistently ranked Stockton as among the nation's most miserable cities and again this year, we are at the top of the dishonor list. They cite high unemployment, rampant crime and sky-high taxes which mar an otherwise livable city. Housing prices down 67%; foreclosures affecting almost 7% of homes, all these things rank among the worst in the country but we are a mere microcosm of other cities. Think of a rose when it wilts and dies, prune it, and it comes back.

Unemployment is projected to rise to 18.1% here. Even that is fallacious, count those who are chronically unemployed, mentally ill, on the streets, on the dole, early retirees, illegal activity out of the system and unemployment more than doubles. Stockton consistently ranks last in a study of literacy in the nation's largest 70 cities. A stretched police force is frustrated by deep cuts in city services due to the lack of income from depressed property values. I read that violent crime was down 10% in the latest figures from the FBI, even the thugs took a pay cut. I see welfare money squandered on drugs and alcohol and the county does nothing about it except to systematically keep people down. I have way too many examples to list. A high percentage of people cannot afford to do business legitimately due to expensive fees. Professionals in the trades are edged out by unqualified cheap labor. I am not given to profane language but I have described Stockton as a hell hole on occasions but frankly, it is not that bad. I had the choice in 2009 to move out of the area, pool family resources and move to Santa Cruz, but I turned that down to buy an aging Victorian and bring it back to its former glory. Committed to restoration and revival, I rushed to this beautiful house once the prices came down.

Am I doing a good job in convincing you not to come to Stockton? Good, this is only for those called to it. Along with good help and ministry, I have had more than my share of drunks and drug addicts here, free-loaders pretending to be Christian, thieves, lazy people, kooks, the mentally ill, bullies, con men and women, gangster types who want to take over the house. I look back and smile at the past with more fond memories than sense of it all from the knowledge that God has brought me through it so well. I love/hate Stockton but I love helping people, I love this beautiful house and things are getting done. We need to see people here that God has already prepared for the revival. Jesus was a carpenter. Local people or those half way around the world, if God has called you for any kind of ministry, here or where you are, you need to be willing to be a part and not delay, time is getting short. If you are sitting around waiting for a rapture, you have already been left behind.

Now about this house. In 2005 it was sold for $550,000 as a restored Victorian. It was not worth over a half a million dollars so the people walked away from it, same with thousands of other houses in town. I bought it from the bank for $79,500 in 2009 because no one had the courage to fix a large house with so much work and a crumbling foundation. Did I say it was restored? If a board is ruined by dry rot, don't replace it, cover it with Fixall and paint over it. If a tree is too close to the foundation and bringing the house down, give it more water so it looks nice. That's the wrong way. The church is like that, a Jezebel, all covered with a false facade to lure the unsuspecting people of God. I am a painting contractor and went into negotiations by overlooking the faults and bought it just the same, I know that this house is well built. I am committed to doing things the right way and allowing people to help along the way while I help them. There is a prophetic belief that there will be a transfer of wealth into the hands of God's people beyond our current recession, what is happening right now is a transfer of wealth from all of us into the hands of the super rich and the in money we trust luke-warm church spawned it. While an ungodly world kingdom races toward Armageddon in the name of their respective false spirits, there will be those of us called to truly affirm God's Kingdom. Believing God's Word, we will not avert Armageddon but we will bring about restoration. Turning the world up-side down is necessary for Jesus to take His proper place. Like the church, the Flora House really is pretty, it just needs restoration work. And I cannot emphasize strongly enough that it takes people who are called to do it.

There is a vision here that God has given me that I cannot do alone. If He has given the Flora House for ministry, then He will make it so. We need that revival in Stockton and we need to do what we can in your community too. We need to have groups to establish ministry and bring people together that are not shackled by the old ways of division. The Flora House is gated and secure, highly visible, downtown, across from the teen center. Open up the gates and let the neighbors come on Sunday afternoon barbecue. music and ministry and start from there, they love this house too. We don't need more churches, we need something better. I have provided musical instruments, keyboard, acoustical guitars, a Fender Strat, amp, congas, drum set, harmonicas, tambourine. No musicians yet, I play a little guitar and can read piano but hampered by a hand injury. How about some joyful noise coming out of here. We need to get a food pantry started, I cannot afford food. It is a working house, people come here knowing that it is structured, no one is allowed to just lay around wasting their lives, residents have either been required to help out or go out and improve their own selves somehow. The house is almost empty now with four vacant bedrooms. It is a 3,250 square foot live together sharing house, furnished, kitchen, washer and dryer, cable TV, Internet and phone, everything we need except more mattresses. We have to trust in the Lord and our own motivation for paying bills, I cannot get further in debt. I have a business set up, a contractor's license, pickup truck, bucket truck, scaffolding and tools necessary to do whatever we come up with.

What kind of revival is this? My wife and I are living in a modest house but it is a nicer area than the Flora House downtown. The Flora House is part of a commercial area and the last house on the block, which is a plus, perfectly safe, the worst parts of town are east and south, not here. Many people in Stockton are chained together by the miseries of poverty, drug ridden housing, mental illness, ignorance, political impotence and despair; when they are employed their jobs pay the least and the businesses around charge beyond their ability to pay. They are deprived in most areas basic to human growth, if they get sick or injured, they have to find a way to dodge the bills or get Obama to pay, many without insurance are robbed of everything. We cannot give them Jesus without giving them hope and spiritual action. Not just an evangelical message but change they can live with in this world as well as the next. I have found no churches here willing to do that but they must be hiding somewhere. Most Christians want to get blessed, not be a blessing. Most Christians do not minister, they may give to ministries, most simply don't care. Most Christians think that they cannot change things and leave it up to invisible hands. Most Christians do nothing for the Kingdom.

I make this appeal for the Flora House with low expectations but high hopes. Every Christian minister through the Flora House has failed to come through with what they say. Out of the many that receive this, there might be none called to come. While there may only be a few of you that can actually help physically, spiritually there is lot you can do. Prayer and moral support through faith is always needed in all of our communities. We need the kind of encouragement that drives us forward rather than retreating into despair. God's true prophets need to speak out against this materialistic, nature of the beast, economic bastardization of church and society but more, we need to do something. We all need to accept others the way they are and then let God do what He does best, forgive and save. Organizational advice is welcomed, this can come from anywhere in the world. Local California people can help with ministry and basic necessities. I have no 501C3 and can't go to the food bank without one, I may need a California umbrella set up.

This has probably been my most lengthy newsletter to date and the most dearest to my heart. I love this house and the people attracted to it. For discussion on these restoration parallels, or more info or interest in being a ministerial part here or anywhere, get back to me.

Love in Jesus,


Hi Jay
The Lord has had me in intercession for a revival. It is important that we, if we are called into intercession, to be on our faces asking for revival. I am in the church for sure. The Lord is moving about and seeking out those who would worship in Spirit and in Truth. The Lord is also seeking out intercessors, He is asking who will stand in the gap for my people. And who will? I will.  Indeed we need to wake up as a church.
Lorie J. Swarts


I was mentoring by email with a young Christian yesterday who wants to bring the churches in our community together for an annual praise and worship, inviting all of the choirs and bands from the different Christian churches together.

I was giving him advice because I ran this very kind of event for four years in another town I was in.  My advice to him:  Stand under the banner of Jesus Christ and leave all the doctrine that divides us at the door.  During the time that I ran these "Festivals of Hope" events, I was asked to give the sermon at the Mayors Annual Day of Prayer meetings because it resonated about why the church as one body of Christ seems to not exist.  I spoke for four years on this very issue every time I was asked to speak at the local churches.

My fervent advice, and the reason that the churches showed up for these events, was because deep down we want to be one body united.  There comes a time to say, "lay it at the door and just come as a follower of Jesus."  Unfortunately, when we stand on our own properties divided, that is not the message we preach.

Your email struck such a strong cord with me right now because I am pentecostal, but have fallen into fellowship with a seventh day pastor that fell 20 years ago, came back to his congregation five years ago and apologized and asked to be accepted back as a member of the church.  He has grieved about wanting to preach again, but not being allowed to by his fellowship.  I recently prophesied over this man that the Lord was about to let him start using his preaching abilities, while at the same time moving him on to a new place, out of his denomination.  Two weeks later, they allowed him to begin preaching again, yet he struggles with the divisive doctrines that he was raised and educated with in his denomination.

Even as we talked last week, and he admitted that he doesn't believe in the sign gifts, he told me that his church has agreed to start letting him re-enter the pulpit and begin taking steps to restoration.  He is truly confused at the work that the Holy Spirit told him he was going to do, and is now doing it.

As I read your email, I had to chuckle and think of my dear friend and his predicament.  But I am also understanding that Christ is faithful to complete this work in him, and I just need to have patience and let him go through the same eye opening experiences that God put me through when he delivered me from the same judgmentalism.  The day that I had a demonic presence come out of a mans face and stare at me, I had to step back from all of the doctrine that I was taught and rethink how and with whom to fellowship.  And love and patience from another brother who mentored me through this time was what brought me through it.

Keep on writing.  It is good to hear a voice calling for unity and hitting the streets with the work of Christ.

R. Brian Voigt

Hi Brian,

Read this several times and especially keep going back to the part of laying it at the door and come as a follower of Jesus. Now, as I appeal for those who wish to minister at a house that I am restoring, it is even more meaningful. I want to invite people in as they are and then let God.

Thank you for that.


Pastor Atkinson,

I have just read your remarkable piece on the Church and its position in these times, that offer great opportunity for change, but great opportunity for paradigm shifts right within the Church.

I do not encourage that the masses neglect the gathering of the saints, but I think in history, and now, the position of the church is relative to the position of the masses.  Jesus walked amidst the vagrants, the starving, the multitudes the disenfranchised and impoverished masses that were not always found within the confines called the Church.

When we constantly defend the lack of movement within the church, we continue to market that the Church must and always should be there, as it stands or else.....

I am one of those people who believe that God's word is constant, and He is consistent, and He speaks everyday, everywhere beyond legalities and legislation.  We as men, have boxed the outlook of God and not vice versa, and we should be mindful of stipulating buildings that do not move, when mens' hearts are failing them wherever they are standing, which is, more often than not, NOT IN THE CHURCH.

We are not here, to limit the possibilities of God, His work, His authority and His redistribution of the Kingdom, to WHOM HE PLEASES.

God is not man, and what is man, that God should be mindful of him, His Works are not based on ours, and our works, but we do need to be steeped in Him, to please Him, not us, not walls, not boundaries.....we are called to work whilst it is day, and wherever we are standing!

The fact that the ministers and the men of the cloth, are having these challenging discussions, means God is already doing something marvelous, and giving mankind the shake up to wake up through our thinking.

God is good, and He is perfect, and He is no respecter of persons, walls and confines, which men so often are.

Our denominations displease him because they more often than not, keep people in, and it is safe to say, keep people out.

Too often people are afraid to go to church with their 'real' issues because they are abundantly aware of just how judgmental the church can be, so it is not surprising when in the end-times the masses will fall away from the church, to chase God in His Fullness and all His Glory in the realest sense!

.....and His word says, and then??? When is then? When you seek me with all of your heart, then you will find me!

Thanks for your thought-provoking and Holy Spirit guided piece.

Stay blessed.

Helga O'Jageer

We are a church divided and all but conquered as was foretold.
 But in our division, many are finding spiritual communion and are 'congregating' with lost souls in ways that are producing a harvest of humanity for Christ.
 It has never been the words that produce faith, always it has been the hunger of the soul for God which brings about the search for those words which Christ has given us to speak; "I am the way, the truth and the Light"....
 We should NEVER profess a faith we do not posses. That Is Blasphemy. And so in or out of a building or fellowship called church does the Spirit speak to those who seek, and what is planted is not a terrified profession of faith, but a warm and loving communion with that which gave us life.

Twinklers (Latter Rain Forum)

True, and it has always been with us the commission to feed that hunger. God is faithful and Jesus has told us He will not forsake us. Too much individualism is too fragmenting. Easy to understand yet lately I still feel like it is a duty to go to church rather than a joy. That's between two churches. Coming up with easy excuses and hard to praise the Lord sometimes with all that is going on.

Thanks for being here.


Greetings Jay, in the name of our Mighty Lord Christ Jesus and for the sake of His occupying Church Body,

"Those who seek Jesus are not looking for orthodoxy, they are looking for the new life that they have heard about. So it's back to basics, foundational doctrines without the dogma, the simple message of faith in Jesus and Him crucified and living in the power of the Holy Spirit. This will restore us to the Fathers like nothing else will."

Yes, Yes, Yes!

 Restoring our relationship with our Father God through the basic and foundational doctrine of Christ crucified and risen as our source of new life in Him. A life lived in Love (Christ's Love) is our first step. How can we love our Father God and Christ Jesus if we have no love for our brethren? If we have no love for our brethren how can we love our neighbor?

 Our love for our brethren can only be manifested by gathering together. Pursuing first our Father through Christ with all our mind, body and soul, will draw us together via the discerning wisdom and power of the Holy Spirit. Examining ourselves and dropping all the baggage of orthodoxy and traditions of men will open our eyes to the Mystery of Christ's Love for the Church Body. As He loves so should we.

 My daily prayer is the same as Christ prayed in John 17, our motivation should also be the same as Christ's; That not even one should be lost. That my sisters and brothers is the definition of Love. This is Unity, however we must continue to gather together to express this Love and Unity. Our time is shorter now than ever before, and not a one of us knows if we have one more day left to manifest this Love openly and fervently in the face of a world gone astray.

 Remember no man can harvest effectively alone, nor can we harvest from inside the house. Yet, it is inside the house of God (Church Body of Loving Believers) that we are nourished (strengthened) and our harvest tools sharpened (made ready).

May our Father God keep us all loving one another in, through and by Christ Jesus! Amen

jahn17 (Latter Rain Forum)

Well, I said you either get it or you don't and you, my friend, get it. I can sound pretty loud with all the internet at hand but I long to do more here locally. I mentioned before having this big old house downtown. Renters and helpers are a great asset but I wish we all could work on ministry. Have one spare room for someone. That's the desire of my heart anyway. One step at a time, I pray that will be a reality. There have been prophets for years telling of a revival beginning in Stockton. Haven't seen anything yet. If the world is racing toward judgment, they seem to be among the front runners here.


Jay, Great article as usual.
 I do not believe that true Christians can significantly change an overwhelmingly apostate Christian church. What we can do however, is not be deceived by Satan's devices or support what is not of God in our churches.
 Jesus said you can not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you are born of the Spirit, and Christians who are trusting in their religion to save them are no more part of the body of Christ than a Jew or Moslem or any other religion.

Larry  (Latter Rain Forum)

You are right of course. Except I am more optimistic in the remnant. The revival to come is totally significant, in the power of the Holy Spirit. Really do believe all the Bride of Christ and Wedding Feast things... Jay

I hope I did not sound to negative, I believe, in time it will come about. in the meantime though Like you said, "Back To Basics", it has to start somewhere..
 Let me not criticise, let me not get veinly puffed up, Let me not be a hindrance to the body of christ, etc..

16 Then never let anyone criticise you for what you eat or drink, or about observance of annual festivals, New Moons or Sabbaths.
 17 These are only a shadow of what was coming: the reality is the body of Christ.
 18 Do not be cheated of your prize by anyone who chooses to grovel to angels and worship them, pinning every hope on visions received, vainly puffed up by a human way of thinking;
 19 such a person has no connection to the Head, by which the whole body, given all that it needs and held together by its joints and sinews, grows with the growth given by God.
 20 If you have really died with Christ to the principles of this world, why do you still let rules dictate to you, as though you were still living in the world?
 21 -'Do not pick up this, do not eat that, do not touch the other,'
 22 and all about things which perish even while they are being used -- according to merely human commandments and doctrines!
 23 In these rules you can indeed find what seems to be good sense -- the cultivation of the will, and a humility which takes no account of the body; but in fact they have no value against self-indulgence.


That's a powerful piece of scripture. Tells it like it is. It is a ready answer to those who do criticize out of legalistic doctrine. Thanks


God called me out of church back in 2003 to teach me himself, I have an end time calling. It involves so many things at the same time. Mostly I am restoring a farmhouse all of it being prophetic. The recent project is the addition the roof was raised and replaced a window put in. He said this is for the connection of the 2 groups he says they are Jews and Gentiles. Also the window is to remove the blinders.........ironically there isn't proper access to the room that is the next phase he has me working on, (funding limits) currently you have to go through 2 bedrooms to get to it. Refinancing is in the makings to change this for practical and supernatural reasons, everything being so precise for timing.......During this he had me talk to 2 people reveal what he was showing me. There have been endless tasks outside to with borders, sifting, sorting debris, digging a whole to soften the heart, cutting vines all of which he used to teach me kingdom truths and he said prepare the way for the others.............................It has been hard grueling at times..Now I am mostly lifeless but continue to maintain and work full they reject me deny the power and what he is doing through I continue my agony of loneliness he asked me to start a site I try as this is all new to me (a site) he wants a place for the end time workers to connect he said set my people free he was so sad. I set it up and wait for them to come.


Anyways had to share that.


Hi Dorris,

Problem I see is that many people get out of a church but can't find another one good enough to get back into. I hear that all the time from people that email me asking if I can refer any to a good one. None are really good but neither are we unless we are all puffed up. We need to restore what was stolen. Easy to say. I think maybe I will finally write my book and then maybe everyone can finally get behind something that we know is right.

Your farmhouse is a great Kingdom principle. The farmhouse is old, it is to be restored, renewed, but retains the old framework and structure.


Well hello Jay.Bob here.

I care for you brother and highly esteem you,But I believe the Commandments of God are the seal of God and are to be kept above all else.I love you as I do all men and go to church every Saturday and spend the day with the Lord from the evening sunset on Friday until the sunset on Saturday.No TV,football car racing,etc.I do it because I love the Lord and that only.And I know it will not make me special to the Lord.
I do not keep the law of ordinances in Leviticus,because I know they were nailed to the Cross.That Jesus fulfilled those laws.
My faith is built on Jesus' love and the Ten Commandments. And by Jesus' righteousness I will be covered,not my own,for I have no righteousness of my own.I truly care for people love and do my best through Jesus Christ.What more do I need?And I was Baptized.

Love in Christ
Brother Bob

Hi Brother Bob,

I know others who feel that they need to be under certain laws of Moses and we have no problem unless any person is judged for their observances of sabbath laws or circumcision or spiritual giftings or baptism or whatever. It is in sin only when they are allowed to divide us. And if we are still brothers, then there is where the love and unity lie.

Be mindful of the classic arguments, grace is superior to the law, the cross is sufficient, the Jerusalem Council, Paul's teaching to the Galatians. To borrow a little bit, the greatest of these is love, so keep the attitude that you seem to have here, devotion, humility and love. God is not through with any of us yet.

Yours in Jesus,


Hi Jay
Very interesting email I say the greatest gift that God has given us in Jesus Christ
is love Without that we are as clanging symbols
Its by grace we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ and that is not of ourselves lest
anyone should boast
Yes their is much division in the churches its disturbing The wheat and the tares are growing
together but if we are in deep relationship with Abba and Yeshua and hear the voice of the
Holy Spirit in us guiding us and move in the love of God our steps and actions are ordered by the Lord
We then will be able to rest knowing that God works ALL things for good ! Yes
Most people go to church looking for God and are led by people instead of the Holy Spirit
When we come to together we are to come already having deep revelation of who Jesus is and
share the gifts that God has given each one of us to the building up of the body
People are still coming to church in the flesh
God knows who is His Let the peace that passes all understanding Jesus's Shalom calm your heart Jay
Not to worry Jay God has it covered Rest in Him Like the lillies of the field Just rest in Jesus finished work
on the cross The gates of hell shall not prevail against His church It is finished ! ! ! HallaluYAH Yeshua ! ! ! Amen
Blessings Denisah

Hi Denisah,

The things you mention are certainly important, love grace faith, walking in the spirit. Deeper revelation of Him and who He is however, is not required for fellowship. God may give us that as we grow in Him but He accepts us as babes, not mature, and we know from the teachings of Jesus that it only takes that little spark of faith to cross over from doubt "as a grain of mustard seed."

God knows our hearts and whether we are sincere or not. People are still coming to church in the flesh yet even among ecclesiastical ignorance, there is still a mass of God's people meeting together. You are absolutely right, the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.



Hallelu Yah!

Not only should there be a call to revival unto Spiritual Truth...but those
disciples of Messiah's teachings should be a voice of repentant living.

Now would be another time to call for baptism unto forgiveness and sin.


Phyllis Ann James

Hi, Jay,
Let me give you my take on what is going on in the church.  I recommend you read Rick Joyner's books "The Final Quest", "The Call," and "The Torch and the Sword" to get a spiritual understanding of what is really going on in the church.

If you observe "Christians" carefully, you will come to the conclusion that most of them are strongly influenced by demons.  The demons are giving them false doctrines and confusing them.  For example, most churches and most Christians are not baptized in the Holy Spirit.  Why not?  Because their church does not believe in it, preaches against it, or claims it is from satan, or gives some other set of flimsy excuses.  Any doctrine that preaches against the baptism in the Holy Spirit is from satan, not from God.  God wants you to receive His Holy Spirit.  He says so in Luke 11.  

If a person is to find the truth, he must continually seek the truth.  That means that if you tell me something, I won't believe it until it is confirmed by God, either in His Word, or directly from His Holy Spirit, preferably both.  One of the doctrines that I can't believe anyone believes is the doctrine that a person receives the Holy Spirit when he is born again.  I have taken born again believers who believe this doctrine to Acts 8, Acts 9, Acts 10 and Acts 19 to prove to them that this doctrine is false, and they can't see it.  It is OK with me.  I am just the messenger. But I never had one of them come to me and say that the Holy Spirit had opened their eyes, and this doctrine is correct.

I find I cannot fellowship with most Christians, not because I don't like them, but because they are uncomfortable around me.  Why?  Because the demons that control them are afraid of me.  I guarantee you that every demon in the world knows who I am.  

Act 19:15  And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Satan is afraid of me because I decimate his army whenever he tries anything stupid.  And I will continue to decimate his army.  And I will continue to preach the truth.  

Here is the truth about the rapture:  

First, listen to Perry Stone's teaching on the rapture.  It is excellent.

Then realize that not Christians are going to heaven in the rapture.  Most will be left behind.  Who is going?  Jesus' bride.  The ones who know Him and love Him.  Just because a person is born again doesn't mean they are going in the rapture.  Have you ever sung a love song to Jesus?  I have given Hillsongs CDs to worship leaders.  The CDs had love songs on them.  The worship leaders wouldn't play them.  What does that tell you?  Would you sing to a girl friend or wife if you loved her?  Would you sing her a love song?  Would you want to spend time with her and talk with her?

I will guarantee you that if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, you have no chance to go in the rapture.  The story of the 10 virgins makes that very clear.  Is the rapture going to happen Saturday?  Not likely.  If you read I Thessalonians 5, you will understand that God's bride will know when He is coming.  He is not coming like a thief in the night for His bride.  He will send His best man ahead to give His bride a few minutes or hours or days to get herself ready.  How much warning will His bride get?  I don't know for sure, but I know that no one has warned His bride yet.  

The rapture is not the 2nd coming of Christ.  That comes later.  Judgement day is not until the 1000 year reign is over.

I hope I have not offended you.  

God Bless,

This is a great message and so very needed in these last days!  I love the Lord with all my heart, but am not in church for some of the reasons you listed.  Maybe it's time to go back and fight harder for the truth.  Please pray for me!  Linda

Yay, Jay! Love it! Preach it, brother!

i've "come out" of the "local churches" of W. lee recently. But I'm NOT out! I'm still related to the dear brothers & sisters who truly love and seek Him.
And I've found several churches here in the Pittsburgh area that (the leadership and many members) LOVE Him with all their hearts. i praise the Lord for them! They are a model and a fresh wine skin!

I am also presently attending a Messianic congregation where I believe they Lord would have me invest my talent (and develop and grow). There is an attitude of receiving and believing in the Christ in one another there.

I don't have the time right now to mention your specific points which caused me to cheer but you're right on! Thanks for standing and speaking!

Only one thing i don't understand...
Last week I read your "numerology" study leading to the believe the rapture is occurring tomorrow (which i can't buy). What gives? it appears I'm mistaken and you don't buy it either?

No matter. you're okay in my book ;)



To Jay:

"We will be victorious, I cannot tell you how!" It is a sad day when the Body of Christ does not know how to be victorious. It is time to take off the grave clothes (sin) and put on the Robes of Righteousness (Jesus took His Blood and poured it on the mercy seat and satisfied the High Court of the Universe). We are dressed with the Righteousness of God. If we continually have to ask God to forgive us, then we do not see ourselves for what Jesus has actually done, which is basically calling God a liar. Let us go before God and ask Him to forgive us for not believing in the integrity of the Word of God, for I myself was guilty of this and believe I have suffered much. I was spiritually abused, mentally abused, sexually abused and whatever other abuse is out there after I committed my life to Jesus) Why, because I did not take my legal place that God through Jesus had prepared for me. I was continuously told I was a rotten sinner. My so called sin was ever before me. "For though we walk in the flesh (senses), we do not war according to the flesh (senses), for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh (senses), but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God......". I in my ignorance assumed that those who were in church must know more than me and I trusted them. I interject here and say that I have forgiven everyone of them. I believed what the religious pentecostals/and or any other so called "christian church" taught. (Its amazing how Satan uses the Word of God against us) But God in His great mercy upon me has kept me through all of this, to God I give all the glory. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free". A time is coming when we as believers will take our rightful place, which is at the right hand of the Father, where Jesus continually is our High Priest, our Mediator, our Intercessor, our Advocate, our Surety. We must look at people the way Jesus looked at people. Can you love the unlovely? Go past the flesh (senses), and look at people the way that God looks at us, through the Blood. Does that mean that we have to be walked over, not all. When you start walking according to the Spirit you will not take offense but will have the most needed ingredient and that is love. People will know that you love them and you won't even have to ell them. It is wonderful to have God's nature, and with that nature comes eternal life because God is eternal. Let God use you to love. Let God use you to show others that God really loves them. We do not need to be hung up as to whats going on in this world. We know whats going to happen, but let God use us to love. There again we do not allow people to walk all over us, Jesus is our example. Let us arise as it says in Isaiah 60: 1-3. We know that this was written to the Israelites, but we are now ONE NEW MAN. The old is passed away, never to come to the future. Now I encourage you. Stand up now and take your rightful place in the Body of Christ, for we stand together, arm in arm, repairers of the breach. And remember you are in a Blood Covenant relationship with God Almighty. Satan is now shaking in his boots, he was defeated. I leave with you Ephesians 3, especially verse 10.

funnygirl (JOANNETHEGREAT)  Latter Rain Forum

A lot of this comes clearer with time. Forgiveness, setting aside bitterness, victorious living, all a process. My situation was similar in a few ways but you are projecting things onto others, unless you are mistaking me for someone else. Misunderstandings must be corrected through the same One Spirit, we much each submit differently. God is not through with any of us yet.


Wow......I am brand new to this forum, so I'm not familiar with how things are supposed to work, but honestly that last dialogue between Jay and Sakkiyn was really confusing to me. Maybe it's just me, I don't mean to be critical. Just felt upsetting in my spirit.
 Blessings and glad to be here!

Hi Jaco,

 Nice to see you here and that you have a searching spirit. Sorry I have not posted, I have just come off of three weeks of intensive work and if not working, I was hard at play, anything to get off this thread, it upset my spirit also. As far as rules, they are the same as when I started many years ago in these dialogues and that it must be done in humility and love. Not easy for many, impossible for some.

 There have been a few people especially that have posted here that has ruined it for others, leaving them bitter, discouraged and frustrated at good intentions gone bad. The ones that had the greatest things to say toward unity and revival have not been back. One lady left in tears and can only write to me by email. Too many superfluous words, a lot of cut and paste concordance and scriptures out of context, I can agree in part but when I disagree and open it for discussion, I am suddenly anathema. For me it has been depressing. What I wanted is for us to come to some kind of consensus through God given reason, understanding of scripture in context, and looking to the Holy Spirit for guidance. We have been met with dogmatic assertions, bigotry, contention, inflexibility and for one in particular, harassment until he gets the last word. Only a few, and loving enough if you agree but to disagree is tantamount to denying their "truth." Detractors say the same thing about the Holy Spirit that I do but can't come through and cannot be believed, I can't explain my thinking on that but it might be obvious. To set these errors as a good examples of bad examples is where I need to be. But more, the chosen need to be in agreement.

 You bring up the same scriptures that Christians have been taking for granted since they were written, nice job. According to this, Sakkiyn rejects the entire church because they have been teaching views of hell that he rejects. The church is not Babylon, the confusion is Babylon. Actually, the Jehovah Witnesses teach virtually the same thing about hell and Babylon that he does and I can't get anywhere with them either. I mentioned that it is a moot point, should not divide us and give him the benefit of the doubt. Not good enough, demanding exact obedience to supposedly sound doctrine that is backed up with vain and fruitless arguments and faulty proof texts, I now feel compelled in speaking out against it. Some people clearly do not belong here.

 I do not claim special revelation but others will tell you that God told them things directly. What I do attest to is merely what I feel within my spirit and what I have studied and that we can really can bear witness to each other in love. I sincerely pray to have the maturity to change my mind when reason and revelation dictate it. We do not have to agree with everything yet others disagree out of feigned love, and humility and then set themselves up as final authority as to truth. I have not directed the heresy tag in any person's direction for years but to think that hell, whatever it is, is not a forever thing borders on that. Personally, I believe that if we are burned up, we are gone once time has ended, and that it is certainly eternal death. I mentioned it would be separation from God and that would be torment enough for me. This is only my opinion however and not enough reason to argue over it.

 Like I said, nice to see you here, since most people have given up on the forum. I hope that you can come back, maybe we can close this thread and we can all get on with something else that we can really get behind without all the pride and false authority that has marked this forum.


Hi Jay,
 Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my post in such an open, honest way regarding the challenges you deal with on the forum. I can certainly (at least in part) understand your discouragement and apprehensions, however, I just want to take a little time to encourage you in the Lord.

I really believe that Jesus has a very definite plan and purpose in mind for you & your forum site. Be patient, dear brother, for I believe He is going to start causing it to bear some really good fruit. I think you are going to start seeing some real 'gems' emerge.....or maybe I should say, a 'gathering of overcomers'!

We know the Lord is absolutely sovereign & that everything happens for a reason. You have been severely tested and tried in all this, but that in itself is producing such an 'eternal weight of Glory' in you that in no way can you even slightly compare it with what you have had to endure. It is sooooo worth it, but I know you know that. Weary not in well doing brother.....You WILL reap a harvest, and soon I believe!

 God wants to use you & your forum.... but He wants you to be absolutely dependent in Him, and Him alone. People will be people. It doesn't matter. But know that God sends them all..... handpicked! Each one does a unique work! He knows just what we need! See God in it ALL!

Blessings to you! Please don't lose hope. We need you! Better days are coming!!

Thank you Jaco,

Encouragement is so much needed here. That is a prophetic gift you know. It is my prayer that those things you say are true. I should say, it has been my prayer and I will continue to ask God to bless this forum. He is teaching me how to deal with all the contentious, personal arguments into the fray that like you say, doesn't really matter. I have been taught and will continue to teach that: in the essentials, there should be unity, in the non-essentials, there should be freedom, on all things, there should be love. Those that can't do that, are merely ignored.

With God's help, we will be able to face these challenges. Without our dependence on Him, and our love for others we are, as they say, just making noise. There are these gems of truth already here, that you speak o,f throughout our discussions, but right now, they are so riddled with out of context, lengthy smoke that it is hard to see the truth from error through it all. With time, that will be dealt with. Until then, I look forward to the gathering of over-comers, will stick to the plan, and pass through this testing.

Again, thanks.


I think you just made the Lord smile, especially your last sentence!!  Me too!

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