Prophets of Praxis

August 14, 2008

Since 911, there has been an immense shift in the prophetic. When the church went to the right politically, I saw God silenced in the prophetic "community", leaving only pretense. The prophetic lists sounded more like horoscopes than where the lord was going and I was sickened by their affinity toward the leaders of the "New World Order." I heard sterile calls for peace, safety and rising up, but the prophets of justice I found among the voices of social action, the prophets of praxis. No longer feeling part of a normative prophetic community, I quickly distanced myself from most of them and became an avowed "Progressive" Christian. It is as in the days of Elijah, as we expose Jezebel and stand up to the prophets of Ahab, we must seek out the voice of the Lord more in these last days and listen less to these voices of mammon and war. Problem is that there is a famine in the land of the true prophetic voice, especially here in the USA where the biggest deceivers and false prophets come from newspapers and the six o'clock news.

Sometimes I get faulted for bad mouthing what I believe to be a false system. They want to know why I am taking my ministry into the political even though I keep telling them that worshiping a false god is spiritual. They think it is a Republican, Democrat thing. No understanding at all, stupid. I don't mean the demeaning kind of stupid out of insult, but dull of sense, their pride and misguided religiosity has made them incapable of rational thinking. It is very important for ministers of the gospel to expose false worship and false prophets. Since only a remnant is led out of captivity, I don't mind offending because I still love them and have a responsibility to bring truth.

For me, Bush bashing was nothing more than a national sport and I am of the fair opinion that he is deserving of impeachment but God willing, I want off of that subject and not take the next election into the fray. To worship the same god as Bush, however, takes that special deception that he shares, it manifests in a way that makes political decisions for those under the delusion. As sheep led to the slaughter, it is part of a collective consciousness that needs no intellectual input of their own. In that so many in the body of Christ have taken part in the works of this false god, it reveals the compromise that Christians take when being part of the global forces of mammon that are attempting to take the kingdom by force. Babylon for sure, they need to know that this is not the true God that they give credit to, Jesus will again be overturning the monied interests at His second coming and discipline and judgment are quick to follow those who are spiritually complicit with this false religious and political system.

Now I am going to give you a perfect example of this political/spiritual delusion: the conflict raging right now between Russia and Georgia. At church prayer last night, the subject was brought up and the Georgians were lifted up as if victims and not the aggressors. I quickly spoke up and told them that the Georgians were the bad guys here, the Russians were merely protecting the South Ossetians from ethnic cleansing and genocide from the Georgians. I was quickly silenced and told it was too complicated. They agreed with me that at least we should pray for understanding.

The biggest problem we have here in the states is the manipulation of news from the mainstream media. I can't fault people for being this stupid, they are brainwashed by half truths and outright lies from people that know better. As soon as I heard President Bush say that he was not going to use the Olympics for politics, I knew he was lying. What is he up to, I wondered, and set out to find out.

Here's the truth. First of all, it is not complicated at all, it is the same story we find all over the world, Bushism, hegemony and big oil. The South Ossetians are a peaceful people. Bush has been pouring arms into Georgia since 2002 to prep them for admission into NATO, this has been the biggest military increase of any country in the world. The military advisors and tactical training came from the United States and thousands of Georgians were sent to fight and kill in Iraq. A U.S. inspired Georgia invaded South Ossetia immediately after signing a peace treaty with them and timed it to coincide with the Olympics. They assaulted the capital town of Tskhinvali with the full intent of shelling it to oblivion and wiping out any of the population that hadn't fled to Russia for safety. Putin asks the U.N. for a cease fire and they refuse, so the killing goes on. Russia essentially says, "Oh no you don't," and went down to Tskhinvali with tanks to rescue the Ossetians and spanked the Georgians big time, quickly driving them out of South Ossetia. Not stopping there, Russian warplanes entered Georgia proper and started bombing military installations in reprisal. It seems that their aim is pretty bad so a lot of apartment buildings get blown up and this is where Bush steps in with "totally unacceptable."

Christians of peace need not take sides in these types of affairs of state, but we do need to recognize the truth, cry justice and denounce this present generation. Those Christians truly called will ultimately cast their nets to the other side for an effective revival and harvest but we have to get holy before entering this solemn event so repentance is requisite. If we decide to blindly support atrocities like genocide and ethnic cleansing simply for cheaper prices at the gas pump, we partake of these sins and will be judged accordingly. Things are about to change.

Here is the question. Where are the true prophets speaking for today? Where are the prophets of praxis that boldly speak for peace and justice as well as personal holiness? Praxis is the power that the early followers of Jesus had in the book of Acts. The power is still here today, where are the ones walking in it? Who directs us back to the true God? There are a lot of new people on the latter rain list, let's hear words without the pretense, ignorance and arrogance, something we can trust as thus saith the Lord. I pray that we hear from these but dissenting voices are always welcome for discussion. Many of you hear from God and have not bent the knee to Baal, what are you doing in the last days to prepare us for the coming of the Lord?

Much of this prophetic spirit can be found below in the dialogue from last time.

Ok, now let's hear from you, get back to me. The question is on the prophets of praxis but if you want to respond to the Georgian conflict, please do your homework, added biased opinion means very little on this one.

Love in Jesus,


Dear Jay,

As a fellow Christian, may we discuss some areas of agreement and where we may not yet have a common view.  

I agree that America exhibits many of the Babylonian traits.  I see that our justice system is handing out injustice routinely and that people in the media and Govt. support that.  But, I blame the Judicial branch for the lack of justice not the executive branch.  I also believe that the attacks on America look like God's call for us to repent.  And like Daniel, I'm confessing the sins of my country as well as my own.  But our countrymen don't seem to retain their trust in God for long after an event.  

My brother, do you personally know that "The Bush administration deliberately fabricated the case against Iraq"?  It is my understanding that no one can know the deliberations of the heart, other than God.  Did God tell you this info, or the did it come from the same source that is perverting justice by surrounding the innocent and perverting justice?  

Did God call Nebachanezzar to attack Israel?  You know.  Is Bush's heart in the hand of God, so that God will accomplish whatever He wants?  You know.    

Maybe this war is preparation for Babylon to be cleared of terrorists so Iraq/ Babylon can flourish and be rebuilt, until the time when those who make a fortune from her stand far off while she smokes, too afraid to go near.  It looks like to me that the US is the superior force in this battle.

Rob Harrast

Hi Rob,

Yes we do agree on much except you don't clarify things about the judicial. I can only presume that you mean Roe vs. Wade and that counts for a lot as a tool for the Bushites to extract votes from the Christian right but not a justification for war. Also I have no idea what sources you mean that is perverting justice by surrounding the innocent and perverting justice. Is this also a reference to abortion? If so, it is irrelevant to this particular discussion and if not, let me know. The judicial branch did of course pervert justice by appointing Bush President in the first place.

As far as the fabrication of the Bush administration case for invading Iraq, it is common knowledge, not my own personal knowledge. I do not want to sound condescending here but you should know that and if you don't, it is because you haven't really looked. As another fellow Christian it would be my intent to open your eyes to these things in the hopes that it can help.

First things first, none of us should trust our news from corporate sources. The nature of the corporaticity itself makes for self regulation and voluntary censorship, we can only find biased news there. They get all their money from advertising, which of course is also corporately based upon capitalism. I like CNN but Fox news is the worst with biased reporting yet if either were to tell the whole truth, they would lose their elitist base and they are in it to make money. If you want the whole truth, you need to depend on alternative news sources. Most right-wing Christians that I have dealt with don't want to know, they avoid everything that does not feed their delusions, they avoid the whole truth at all costs and are smugly satisfied with half truth. Truth challenges their false notions to the point where opened minded discussion is impossible.

Rob, your letter is the first one that I decided to answer simply because you say we may not "yet" have a common view. Unity to me is among my first priorities in this ministry. Jesus has prayed that we will be one. John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." Jesus is coming for a perfect bride, unity is at the top of the list in perfection. Jesus will not come back until we have it all together.

Bush's heart is not in the hand of God, he heeds the father of lies.

Before 9/11, the Bush administration itself denied the existence of WMD in Iraq:
"He (Saddam) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors." --Secretary of State Colin Powell, in Cairo, Feb. 24, 2001

Iraq's Alleged Al-Qaeda Ties Were Disputed Before War:

Rob, the Bush administration used the attacks on 9/11 to fabricate the case that Saddam Hussein was responsible, he nor the Iraqi people had anything to do with it. There was no Al Qaeda there, no terrorist training camps, no weapons of mass destruction. Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban were based out of Afghanistan and Iraq had no connections to them.

Bush is stupid but not that stupid, he has neo-conservative advisors surrounding him with the lies and deceits that make him move and that's the truth. The objective from the beginning in Iraq even before 9/11, was to secure the oil fields, build air bases there and use the strategic position to exert domination over the entire middle east. This may comfort you with the knowledge that democracy is being spread but that is another lie, the delusional nature of the beast.

Anyone in the know about what is happening around the world will either know the truth, spread the lies or ignore it completely. It is up to you to be free enough in Christ to recognize the difference and you can only do that with eyes wide open and that takes a change of mind.

Here is a good article that lists Bush's lies and cites sources:
And another:

I need to know if I am getting through. Iraq has not been Babylon for 2500 years. There is a spiritual one in the last days that we are commanded to get out of.  

Thanks Rob,


Dear Jay,

Thanks for this. Let me say I am glad I hear from Latter Rain ONLY now and again as to get too much for too long would deaden my spiritual senses and you guys are quite intense.

Of course you sound a bit intense and flakey but that is often the way it is with people who love Jesus and have the prophetic gift.

What you say about Babylon is true, and (in my opinion) it is also true that God has raised up Islam as a 'scourge ' as He did in the 7th century in relation to the corrupt Byzantine Church, so this is 'So this is Islamic Scourge Mark 2'

 I have no doubt that Bush, although probably 'born again' as an individual and a lover of Jesus as an individual is working under a strong Satanic delusion and is totally self-deceived.

You might find it of interest to read the Jihadist manual 'Milestones' by Sayyid Qutb who is the Godfather of Al Quida.

< >

I have attached as well as paper by a Christian friend of mine on the biography and theology of Sayyid Qutb as well as today's lead article from the Observer which is titled:

British believe Bush is more dangerous than Kim Jong-il .

Notwithstanding that Mohammed was a false prophet who denied that Jesus is the Son of God and, in the Koran, put a curse on all who "|Say that God has a Son", this does not mean that God cannot use Islam for His own purposes, as he is today.

I shall read Habakkuk again with this new perspective.

God bless you in Jesus,

Bill Gordon
United Kingdom

Hi Bill,

Intense, yes. I had to laugh at that. Actually my intent is to awaken your spiritual senses. We fully agree about Bush. I had already read that article that the British think that Bush is more dangerous than Kim Jong-il. A lot of people here think so as well.

I also read some of the reviews on that book. Quite interesting. Since Islam is under the law and have never learned Christian freedom, they can only take those extreme religious expressions if they are to be true to Islam.

Blessings right back at you.


Dear Jay,

Your discussion of this issue is as usual very incisive and none can question of your grasp of the issues but my main worry is what appears to be our inability to do anything about what has been settled by the almighty.

I recently I listened to Pastor Bakare in the message preached on October 1st where he spoke about the people of Nineveh and the prophesy of Jonah to the effect that when the people of Nineveh repented God relented but for a while because after about 100 years the prophesy of Jonah as the city was destroyed. There is something that is final in what the almighty has decreed and there appears to be  little or nothing human beings can do about it.

Bush may be a pawn in the chess board and his role in the unfolding deadly drama is much the same as the one Judas played in betraying the lord.  Am really befuddled and at a loss as to how to respond when such an issue is raised.

It does appear that the people involved are playing a role or a script written for them and cannot do anything until the will if God is done. I will like further enlightenment on prophesies as it concerns individuals.


Kind regards

anthony opara

Hi Anthony,

Although I share your worry, I believe that there is a lot that we are to do.

There are the forces at work that bring us to end time thinking first hand. We are in the last days and these things will unfold just like the Bible says. Although the foreknowledge of God is certain as to what will happen, our response to what is going on is not. We are creatures endowed with divine characteristics simply because we are made in His image, in short we have the freedom to choose whether to follow Babylon down the rabbit hole of hell or avoid her at all costs and persist toward the New Jerusalem. Like I mentioned before, this is Mystery Babylon, not a physical place. If we are of the same mindset as Bush, we are among the Babylon that rides upon the beast and destined to fall. This is our decision to make and the very point that I am trying to make. Repentance starts with ourselves first and we are all commanded to repent. That is an individual choice.

It is the same in Nigeria as it is around the world. Bush wants to take over your country and plunder it for the benefit of his elitist New World Order. The leaders of Nigeria profit from that, the people do not and will only get worse. Once all third world countries can have the mindset of justice and the gospel that is preached to the poor, we have the mind of Christ.

Think of it this way, there have been over a half a million Iraqi civilians killed in this war. These are innocent people that we are talking about, not terrorists. When judgment day arrives, did you worship the same God that sent them to their deaths? We all have to make the choice here over matters of life or death, fact or fiction, enlightenment or delusion, truth and error. The Lord is coming for a perfect Bride, not one that has compromised with this world system, no matter how sugar coated it is. If you believe the ones who have told the lies, God will give you over to them.

Think about it. Let me know.


Thanks Jay I agree with your comments as I share the same views.  Just want to add a few of my own.

Many prophecies connect Iraq and the great river euphrates to the battle of Har-Meggido, other wise called Armegiddon, see Revelations chapter 9.

The mark of the beast is with us today in the form of G-8 countries and the United Nations.  Anyone who does agree to be part of the great democratic exploitation is sanctioned and not allowed to trade on the world market, 666.  the USA and it's allies use the UN as their puppet to police the rest of the world.

Just as in the past God used King Nebuchadnezzer to punish Israel for King Solomon's Idol worship, so God will use Russia, China, North Korea, Syria and Iran to punish the USA.  "I will make Jerusalem and trembling cup and all who worry themselves with her shall surely pay for there sins.  Israel will be attacked, but it will never fall again into Islamic hands, this is the promise given to Jacob, "It will be a time of Jacob's troubles, but out of it he shall be saved".  During this tribulation many Jews will accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah and save their souls.

However back to Iraq, The four ringleaders of fallen angels from the time of Noach, Samuel(Satan), Azazel, Paimon and Asmodeus are bound at the bottom of the river Euphrates.  When they are released revelation 9, 200 billion people will die in one day, one hour, one year,  a third of mankind.  This will then lead to Armeggidon the great final battle for Jerusalem.

USA and England lied to the world to justify overthrowing Saddam Hussein and gain access to Iraq and its OIL, as there own supplies are running out and they do not want to pay a high price to buy from other nations.  Russia, Iran and the South American countries are bidding their time to apply pressure on USA and Europe to force them to buy their oil when USA's own stock runs out/low in the next few years.

Nostradamus said; The chief of England(Blair) by rule of America(Bush) will have one(Bush) who is a false anti-christ.  He will put them all into discord(war).   

Another point that many don't realize is the Beast(satan) has 7 heads and 10 crowns on each head. This equates to 70 world leaders, whose secret plan is world domination and destruction and the suffering of mankind, whom they despise.  They plan to attack Jesus and his saints when the Holy one returns to claim his creation.

So yes my friends pay no attention to media lies, watch and pray for redemption draws nigh.

Blessed be his name
Carlyle Daley

Amen Carl. Praise the Lord. You are a man after my own heart.

The G-8 countries for sure, also add the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, NATO, the World Trade Organization. These comprise the most vicious and evil Imperialistic coalition ever conceived by man, all controlled by the elitist New World Order capitalist collective run by Bush and company.

As far as the U.N., it is true that they are being used as a puppet police force. The United Nations "peacekeeping" mission in Haiti showed what kind of injustice they are guilty of and how Bush is using them. That really showed the nature of the Beast. I also think that the U.N. can be used for good if enough of the countries outside of the northern alliances can bring in a majority. Getting Venezuela voted into the security council will help but right-wing Christians in this country are too deceived by false prophets here to see God's wisdom in that. I see all this happening that you mention. Can't deny that we are headed toward Armageddon but there will be a price to pay when the north suffers the humiliation of economic collapse and the transfer of the world's wealth begins.

What happens in Iraq is the key as you well know. God's timeline is true and we can learn a lot about what goes on when we head into a world wide drought and the Euphrates is dried up to allow the eastern armies to cross over. We can also see that this is several years down the road yet.

I have read Leviticus but never studied Azazel, it is interesting reading. I am wondering if this is also the scapegoat. I am also wondering who is to set them free in the river because he comes out clean. Have to study that some more when I get the time. I have a page on Abaddon and credit him to possible Islam, I will have to add Asmodeus to the fray.


Good Day Jay

Yes we are watching the beginning of the end unfold before our very eyes.

Just to update you the four demons bound in euphrates are the four leaders that lead astray the company of angels in the time of noach, see the book of enoch. Azazel is the second in command, referred to in revelations as the beast(and satan transferred his power to the beast).  To put it into context, it is azazel who is responsible for teaching men to war, and make swords etc.

Daniel 12 tells us that ARCHANGEL MICHAEL, the prince will release satan, azazel and company from the euphrates, while the elect dead and alive are raptured into paradise, to leave the others behind in the tribulation.  

What is amazing is many so-called christians are blind and can't see the result of their actions, in relation to bible prophecy and others deny it will ever happen. "THE FOOL HAS SAID IN HIS HEART THERE IS NO GOD".

Watch & Pray
Carlyle Daley

Hi Jay

Just wanted draw your attention to the prophecies of Zechariah 12-14 which is a mini revelation of the end times and the return of Christ.  When the Jews see christ whom they crucified many will repent and be accepted, as stated "I will extend salvation to the House of David".

The USA and UK are currently devising a plan to divide Jerusalem in a twin state for Jews and Arabs.  This goes against God's wishes as Jerusalem belongs to Jews and christians, not the sons of Ishmael and Esau.  


I note Tony Blair told the americans group that to solve the iraq war they must first solve the Jerusalem/Palestine conflict?

I say to both of them Tony Blair and George Bush you have already thrown the arab world into conflict, Good luck with your plans for the Holy Land, GOD IS WATCHING.

Watch & Pray
Carlyle Daley

Hello Jay

My name is Mark Pool I am an independent write-in candidate for the office of U.S. Senate in Indiana If you have any other Hoosiers on your mailing list could you please ask them to check out my website and consider voting for me.


Mark Pool

Hi Mark,

Don't know if my next edition of the latter rain list will make it but I will put this in there anyway so people can see your web site. You understand that I am part of a progressive community and relish bringing conservatives off their exalted perch. If I were a Hoosier, I would try to elect someone much different than yourself. I would want a true patriot in there, one that will not bring false Christian intolerance and invoking God for their personal political ambitions. It would be a God of love and justice through their actions, not words.

Mark you have some great progressive ideas but in this day and age when the Lord is having us repent and come back to him, it is necessary for you to put away your cherished ideals and start being an abundant Christian, not a conservative one.

Blessings Mark, I wish you the best.


Bless You

Mark Pool

Dear Jay

I was very interested to read your article Habakkuk and Iraq. Yes it is clear Habakkuk may have spoken to his generation but the ultimate purposes of his prophecies are being fulfilled among us for whom the prophecies were specifically written, for us who live in the last days, in the day of the Lord.

I agree with you that one nation is judging the oppression of another. I agree that God has been raising up Islam to bring judgment upon America for her sins. Time and again, throughout the Old Testament, God used heathen nations to judge His people and call them back to Himself. The rise of Islam is a call for the Church to return to the Lord, to purify herself and come passionately, boldly, holily, before God and plead for Him to in His wrath remember mercy.

Yes, God does have a ministry for the Chaldeans!
The question for the Church is, are we responding correctly?
Let's not discuss government response at the moment, the question is, "How is the Church responding?"

From my observation, the current Church response is.very little!!!! What are we doing to confront the Chaldeans? Some seem to think, "Let Bush deal with them!" Then they criticise and mock him. Others seem to think, "God will judge them, it's got nothing to do with me."

But, how many Christians are willing to recognize that the Chaldeans, the heathen, the enemy, are the people for whom Christ died to save. How many are willing to go out and preach the gospel to them? How many are going to Iraq to share the good news, to heal the sick and preach the gospel to the poor?

How many are going to the "Chaldeans" in the streets of Chicago and Michigan and Dearborn and sharing the love of Jesus Christ with them? It is not Bush we should be talking about, it is the Church, you and me. It is our failure, not Bush's that should be the topic of our fervent discussion!

Let me say in closing that I believe the gates of hell were opened in Iraq and it is time for us to, as Rheinard Bonke says, "Plunder hell and populate heaven!"


My point exactly Maryam,

The church is not responding, except for some, that is why it is called a remnant. Not yet anyway. Babylon will fall and many with her. I can only write from my own perspective of recognizing who Babylon really is and warn people to repent and get out of her. Blindness in part has happened to the Body of Christ. It seems that the Lord Himself has put the blinders on the church simply because they not only believe the lies told them by the church and government but they speak them as well. I see a lot of false prophets.

The real question is not how they are responding but what do we do to get them to respond in the spirit. How do we convince them that the Iraqis are not the real enemy, the enemy is within themselves. How do we get them to love like Jesus did and not to preach the intolerance, fear and hatred that they are used to but like you say, to share the good news, heal the sick and bring the gospel to the poor.


we have no choice but to take the Bible, Word for Word. Jesus says let those who have ears, hear.
It is very easy for me to see both sides of this "argument". each nation involved believes in it's respective diety, and believes that they are doing the work of their god. it is almost unstoppable.
the true truth, the one remaining deed in our hearts is revealed when we face our maker. most religious groups of any denomination or culture follow this.
we could almost wonder are there several heavens?
i tend not to get into the grimy details, they are beyond me, the field of politics and political correctness confuses and offends me.
my concern is and has always been the children of the world. they suffer needlessly, they are subject to grown up perversions sins and torture. some say why doesn't God stop it? how can a loving merciful God allow innocents to suffer?
the children of these nations, some say third world, others say economically challenged, are the descendants of those of the Old Testament. The Old Testament and the New Testament speak of the sins of the father visited upon the children, which i believe says two things. the next generation will be dragged down into the sins of those who do not repent and stop.
the children of those who refuse the Lord will suffer the same or worse, and the fathers will pay and regret.
if the Lord uses the nations against other nations, His Wisdom is not questioned by me, even though i do not understand it.
i trust that His children will be spared the worst, and the rejectors of His Leadership will be punished.
hope this makes sense.
good to hear from you Jay.

Teresa Tickner

Hi Teresa,

Always a pleasure. I am with you on not wanting to get too involved with the details. I am too much interested in the universals to be preoccupied with the particulars but there just too many truths that are so much weightier than others. So, I also do not like to get into the political end of it but understanding what is going on in the world should be very important to all of us. There are just too many false prophets out there coming in the name of Jesus to sway us into political correctness or right-wing ideology, we have to be on our guard and follow thus saith the Lord.

And Bible study is important too. You are right about Daniel, a thorough examination is needed to understand Revelation. When end-time scriptures are studied in the end-times, circumstances will reveal the understanding of what it all means only if we stay informed. The Revelation says that the "kingdom of the beast is full of darkness," light is only good for those that have eyes to see.


Jay, maybe God has raised up America to judge the vicious leaders (Saddam) of Iraq and free the people who are oppressed by Islam and tyrannical leaders........not the other way around. A woman who was a Muslim from Iraq who escaped after Desert Storm and eventually made it to Canada and then became a Christian spoke recently on a TV program. She said she was very angry at GWB for attacking Iraq and causing the pain and distress she had experienced in Desert Storm. She could not forgive America, but the Lord persisted with her and when she repented, the Lord showed her that He had raised up America to deliver the Iraq people (the Christian Believers) who had been crying out for justice and peace. Up until this time I had been praying for God to show me where He was on this war and what should I think and pray about it. When this lady spoke I knew that God was answering my prayer and that the dramatic flip-flop in this women's perception of the war could have only happened because Jesus opened her eyes to what He was doing in this situation. More telling than anything else is that  Believers in Iraq and around the world prayed and asked God to intervene. If you can accept this, I don't think you can put God in a box and say He wouldn't do it "this way".

Saddam had murdered hundreds of thousands of people and was encouraging and training terrorists to further His hatred of America. The US represents the only rule of law in the world. The UN is pathetic. America is the only defence for free men against the oppression of radical Islam and tyrannical leaders in the world.  Bin Laudin has self appointed himself as the judge, jury and executioner of America and the west. Radical Islamic groups use threats, manipulation and terrorist tactics to get America to desert Israel. They kill with little or no regard saying that a good Muslim who dies killing people of other faiths in Jahad will enter heaven directly. Most Muslims don't know if they have made heaven or not.  Hamas' charter overtly states that Israel must be destroyed and Syria, Jordon, Iran and Saudi Arabia support that position. I fail to see how that would qualify them as God's appointed judges of America.

If God is disciplining America it is in the area of her greatest sin -materialism. The war has cost America a lot and she is hurting economically from other problems (balance of trade). Our prayer should be that the Church in America should return to the Lord and repent of her materialism. God disciplines a country based on the condition of the Church in it. Therefore we (the Church) must search ourselves first before we point a finger.

As a Canadian I am VERY thankful that America has stood up to these radical terrorist at great cost to her. If I was depending on Canada to defend our freedom we would all be facing Mecca 3 times a day. In spite of her flaws -Thank God for America!

Paul Weigel

JAY; Money talks and BS walks and you are full of it in your accusations against  George Bush. I`ve met the man and I know he`s not the person you make him out to be. "God sets up Kings and he also removes them". Bush could not be President if it were not the will of God. He`s bringing us to Judgement but also to destroy the evil religion of Islam. You think too muck like Bill and Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy.---Kenneth White

If what you are saying is true, there is more to  come........stu

Much more Stu, this is only the beginning of sorrows.


Shalom, Jay,
I have just received my first Latter Rain List Newsletter.  Thank you.
A smile came to my face as it occurred to me that the first newsletter arrived to my box as I sit here in Israel enjoying "the latter rain" which, as usual started in Oct.  My bones are growing older, so... I am not really looking forward to the winter months.

The last hour has been spent copying The Latter Rain issues of 2002 - 2006 to MS Word documents.  After I do a little tidying up, I will print them out and curl up for a good read.
I have no opinions at the moment.  I like to take things slow before I form any opinions and open my mouth. However, your newsletter did rouse my interest.  There are so few latter-day believers around me ... well, few that I know.  G-d likes to remind me when I pull an Elijah on Him that He has 7,000 that have not bowed their knee to Ba'al.  I stand corrected again.
I thought you might like the attached picture of Georgie Boy back in his college days.  He prays to his god; that is true but his god is worshipped inside a pentagon with black candles.
Blessings, Jay!

Thanks for the picture Hana. I am adding it to my collection. That is George H. W. the Senior Bush there. It seems that the boy George was in the skull and bones as well, so was Kerry. The New World Order was hatched at the skull and bones society.

Reading over the latter rain list archives is a good education. We pretty much covered all the major divisions in the church to try to come into one accord.



Jay, I am a called prophet so in your November 3, 2006 message I received, when you said, "If you worship the same god that told george bush to invade Iraq, you have followed a false god" I KNOW IMMEDIATELY this is true.  George bush and his zionist jews are demonic, I repeat again as a prophet, they are DEMONIC.  And my Bible tells me there are ONLY 144,000 jews going to heaven.
These zionist jews are the gravest danger to Christ and those in His kingdom that has ever come upon the earth.  And if any one I know follows these "... of your father, the devil ... liar and murderer from the beginning ...", THEN, I will not even converse with these of satan, for I KNOW the dangers, grave dangers.
But veils, called curtains in Islam, have dropped and gates are already closed, so to even be concerned about those "following these unclean devils" to me is close to blasphemy.  I serve Christ ONLY not any jew-boys.  Prophets are called out BY GOD, trained BY GOD, and then given to the beloved Christ to serve as REAL warriors against demonic warfare.
I am giving to you, Jay, not 2000 year-old bread but "... give us this day our DAILY bread ..." prophecy.  It is beautiful and it is POWER:

Margaret Bell
      We are walking forth with the army of the Lord.
     Peace be still my heart, and know ye, I am God Who saves thy fretful soul.
     The waters shall be parted, and the bounty of the Lord shall be known to all who seek.
     See ye to know the power of the Lord.
     Seek ye to stand within the power of heaven and glory.
     The mountain stands before thee, but, yea, I say, thy path is guarded by the power of heaven.
     Seek not to be fearful and sad, rather seek ye to know the footstep of the army of the Lord.  The mighty hand of the mighty Father does send forth the victory before thee.
     Stand, yea, I say, stand and be counted, for the waters shall be parted, and, yea, I say, the darkness before thee shall be cast unto the belly of the earth.
     Hasten to believe!
     Know ye the Father does hold thee unto His bosom, as a little babe in whiten cloth.  Seek to feel His warmth and power round and about thee, little one, for, yea, He has cast His army before thee.
     Stand to be counted, and know ye the mighty hand of God shall come forth with a fury unto thee, and thy need of sorrow.
     The Spirit of God does linger within thy spirit, as sweet as the nectar of honey.  Feel the glow of love within thy being.
     And, know ye, I and my Father are one.
     The victory shall come swift.
     Be still my heart.  And know ye, I am God Who speaks unto thy humble spirit.
     My Beloved holds thee within My kingdom of wealth and bounty.
     My Beloved walks with thee in the garden at evening tide, to renew thy weary soul.  Hasten to linger in the garden.
     Seek ye the inner chambers of the soul.
     Walk forward, my little one, with the light of Christ before each step upon thy journey.
     Hasten to believe, and know I shall cast the shadows before thee unto the dust of eternity.
     I bid thee joy and love.
     I bid thee merriment within thy soul.
     Peace be still my heart.
     And know ye, I am GOD, the great I AM.


Hi Margaret,

Sure wish that I knew what the Jews place is in all this. To see the way they treat Palestinians and how they handled the situation in Lebanon recently, we know something is wrong. To tell the truth, I don't know yet. I can put a lot of blame on the Jews for their place in the New World Order and the misuse of usury and all but don't know how to tie it all in with end-time events. We know that God will protect Israel but what judgment is coming to the Jews that reject Christ, I have no idea.

Looking for more insight on the matter. Time will reveal all things, I do know.


   Jay, GOD WILL PROTECT SPIRITUAL ISRAEL WHICH IS THE "SPIRITUAL MAN (SOUL) IN CHRIST, not any physical man or tribes.  The first israel was flesh, natural man, natural nation, natural kingdom.  The second ISRAEL is spiritual ONLY.  And neither has anything to do with the jews, per se, or israel, the country.

   HOW DO WE WORSHIP GOD? In spirit and in truth ... yes there are "certain passages in the Bible" but I think most anyone could find a particular passage or passages plural to fit their needs, you and I included.

   Using ONLY the words of CHRIST about the jews:  "...a harlot will get to heaven before you (jews-Pharisees, the leaders) do ... "   " are of your father the devil ... who was a LIAR and MURDERER from the beginning ..."

   The Bible CLEARLY speaks of how many jews go to heaven from each tribe -- 144,000.  And, I was NOT aware jews, especially zionist jews even believed heaven exists.  They killed the Christ so I cannot express to my LORD who and what they are either.

   To use your correct wording, USURY, they, the JEWS ARE THE MARK.  They were MARKED in the beginning as CHRIST clearly explained WHO they were. And, God CLEARLY STATED HE PUT "THE" MARK upon them ... that they should WANDER THE EARTH (not accepted) and NO MAN SHALL BE ALLOWED TO KILL THEM (in Genesis).  So Genesis was the beginning of creation, the physical man, and ("I, Jesus, have sent mine Angel ...") and Revelation clearing expresses which (original jews) GO TO HEAVEN, 144,000.

   In the end the so-called chosen nation of israel WILL BE KILLED.  At the END TIME God WILL ALLOW the descendants of CAIN to be killed, and then the 144,000 of the tribes come forth unto heaven ... along with those IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD under grace, under the authority of the beloved Christ.

   Like a computer book or a mechanics' book, as you already know, the BIBLE is EVIDENCE of SPIRITUAL power ONLY.  Yes, ISRAEL, Spiritual Israel WILL BE SAVED, those "born again IN THE HOLY SPIRIT," yes, I agree, spiritual Israel WILL BE SAVED.  I do not accept the illegitimate nation of israel to be any more chosen by Christ than Sweden, Korea, Bulgaria, ... whatever.

    As a prophet I ask God to damn those who are now WORSHIPING the natural zionist jews and worshiping the nation of israel.  I have no choice.  I have at least 275 pages of PROPHECIES, divine writings, direct prophecies ... so many of which are far MORE POWERFUL, far more beautiful than what I sent to you.

   The jew is a "whiner" and he lives like a Gypsy on his own "jive" and "hype."  The beloved CHRIST said at his death on the cross when told His mother and brother were there, he said:  "Those who follow My Father's commandments, they ARE my family (MINE).  "THEY, AND THEY ALONE ARE THE CHOSEN, THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL."

  JAY, YOU ARE DOING A GOOD WORK.  There is NO chaos or confusion concerning the HOLY SPIRIT (but we all know we have some spiritual differences even between ministers and prophets).  So, I do NOT want to cause to you even small chaos or confusion.  I BLESS the work you are doing. So unless there is something you would like to discuss I will not expect an answer.


Hi Margaret,

It seems that I take exception to most of what you say. You mention the word clearly but you are clearly not a true prophet or the truth would ring true and it doesn't. Prophets are to bear witness to each other, this sounds too much like a familiar spirit. Keep working on it, the Lord will give if you ask but you will have to put away much of your prejudiced thinking first.

There is spiritual Israel but there is a physical one as well. The two houses of Israel must join before the Lord returns. The 144,000 are CLEARLY not all Jews. The tribe of Judah (where the Jews come out of) were only one of the twelve tribes and number only 12,000 in the biblical text. The nation of Judah split from Israel before the Assyrian captivity where the ten tribes of Israel were dispersed into the Gentile nations. This is why they are called the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. The tribe of Judah, the tribe of Benjamin and the Levites can be the only parts of present day Israel that can be properly called Jews. This is not prophecy you are speaking but mistaken knowledge from faulty sources.

You can go ahead and curse Jews if you like, but not here. I will call you on it.


You know Jay, while a lot of us don't agree with Bush and his motives for invading Iraq - he does have the body of Christ here in America backing him.  The Word tells us that we are told to pray for our leaders.  I truly believe a lot more would have been accomplished had he asked the body of Christ to fast and pray for America.  I totally don't agree with him putting the country in war.  Also the democrats have a different agenda they are in full support of gay marriages and abortion and partial birth abortion.   All the values that we hold dearly to is supported by the democrats so what do we do except pray, pray and pray without ceasing.  The Lord is still looking for those who will stand in the gap and pray.  America has to return to righteousness.  Repentance must begin in the House of the Lord.  There is too much sin in the church that's why we can't see revival.  There are a remnant though whose hearts are perfect toward HIM and are running after HIM.
Blessings my brother.
Please give my love to Mary.  Tell her I might be going to Arizona - I received an open invitation from some friends in the Ministry.  Let her know that I'm praying for her and the Lord's hand is not shortened.  He has everything under control.  In the fullness of time everything will work out the way the Lord ordained for it to be worked out.
Shamim Wilmot
Woodland Hills

Hi Shamim,

We have a lot in common but what you call the body of Christ, I call Babylon. Generally what I think you mean is the right-wing, conservative, extreme fundamentalist, evangelical block that moved en masse to get George Bush elected. Being in the majority does not qualify for true Christian unity when it is the remnant that is led by the spirit to flee from her. That is the beauty of the remnant teaching in the Bible, we can see what's what and recognizing it is very important.

The march to Armageddon is sure, nothing we can do about it, it is in God's hands and in the governments prepared for it. In Nazi Germany, you would have prayed for Hitler but that does not sanctify what Hitler did. The Germans who supported Hitler and prayed to the God of Luther, are they praying to a false god or not? During the hostage crisis in Iran, the followers of Ayatollah Khomeini prayed for him. Were they praying to the true God, are they not given the same advice that you are?  The same god that told Bush to invade Iraq brought a Pharisaical false prophet delusional church out to vote for him and pray for him. It's not too late to change our mind about a false deity when we see his true colors.

Everything that George does is anti what Christ would do. He lies constantly because he always gets away with it. Iraq is merely our next step for global domination of the capitalist New World Order, not democracy or terrorism. It is foolishness to see that and not be alarmed. When Christians support this type of Imperialist government, they worship the image of the beast. It is their choice. You seem not to be making that choice, so take a stand and admit that you do not worship the same god that he does.

We either examine the facts and see through these things or we ignore them and part of the delusion. Bush believes in his god because it is the American god of Manifest Destiny. That is not my god, it is not the true God. You had to have worshiped the true God at one time or another Shamim, or there would not be as much love in your heart as there is. My message to all that are following George Bush's god is to come back to the true God.

Thanks for praying for Mary. We all need to pray for her, she is doing some music recording maybe and needs to know the right way to go about it.


Hi Jay:
Thank you for your email.  First let me get one thing cleared - I'm NOT A SUPPORTER OF GEORGE BUSH.  I don't believe nor do I support the decision he makes and the position he has placed the country in right now.  I don't believe he has ever been baptized in the Holy Ghost.  There are a lot of 'christians' in America who call themselves Christians but live no different from the world.  Even the churches are preaching a gospel that is not the message of Christ and him crucified but a 'prosperity - name it and claim it' gospel - so totally contrary to the Word of God.   I make a lot of enemies with my so-called christian friends who live in the 'bible belt'.  I really don't care as long as I speak the truth in love and pray that one day they'll get it.
I read your testimony and it sounds so much like my husband.  My husband was killed in an accident a year ago last April and he was the best living example of Jesus I had ever witnessed in a human being and I had the privilege of spending 7 years with him.  When he got saved he got baptized in the Holy Ghost and was so filled with the Awesome love of God - and wanted everyone to know of this pure love of God.  However he was placed in a hospital telling him he was crazy.  I have books to write on his life and my life and our life together which I know will be a blessing to others.  I wrote a poem 2 months after he died and I'd like to share it with you...
I prayed for the best husband in the whole wide world
And The Lord delivered mine with a heart of pure gold
For 7 years he lavished on me love without measure
As the gift in his heart was truly a treasure
He was taken from me without any warning
And now my heart bleeds 'most every morning
They say in time my heart will heal
One thing I know, God's love is real
He taught me to be strong
And to sing to the Lord a new song
To praise Him in the midst of adversity
And the vict'ry will be mine most assuredly
He cried from his heart to the Lord above
And was filled to overflow with oceans of love
Every fibre of his being was filled with God's Presence
As the fragrance he oozed was the purest essence
His smile would melt and open the coldest heart
As he purposed to ensure he did his part
He loved the Lord with his whole heart and soul
And lived each moment to reach a lost and hurting world
Well I guess this will be all for now.  Is Mary singing?
Please share the following with her.
Watch for and take advantage of opportunities to phase out that which is no longer beneficial to you, and prepare to move forward into simplicity and abandonment in me. Carefully evaluate everything that has become a distraction and hindrance to your life in the Spirit. Moving into this new season will require some modification.  Be flexible enough to alter your course of action, for certainly your obedience will not only bring greater freedom and lasting benefits but absolute fulfillment. Be still and know that I am God, says the Lord.

Proverbs 4:12 When you walk, your steps will not be hindered, and when you run, you will not stumble.



Well said Shamim. We in the body of Christ need more and more people to take a stand against the anti-christian forces at work around the world. George Bush is only one example of that, admittedly the best example, or should I say the worst. It takes courage to speak out. Thank you for your testimony. Your husband is as aware as the angels in heaven and hears all, I am sure that he is pleased too.


Dear Jay,

    We both know most Christians in the U.S. today would slam the door in your face, saying, "How dare you say that our president is not of God!  Or that our nation is unGodly!"  I, however, will not do so, for before the invasion of Iraq, I sought our Lord in my simple way- "Father, is this movement to war of you or the minds of men?" and I was moved to write an email of warning to our president which I knew would never be read but, for the record, I tried to warn him to make sure that what he was doing was God's will...or it would surely fail.  Now, I see him struggling for vindication and my only words can be, "If what you did was of God, your vindication will come; if not, your judgment will come."

    Jay, my brother, I will never pretend to be as deep as you are or have the understanding of Biblical prophecy as do you.  Perhaps it is not meant for all of us to have the same vision.  I don't know.  I do know that I cannot shut the door in your face, for I have felt I my heart of hearts that we are rushing to judgment as a country.  Remember how our leaders banded together after 9-11 and sang "Amazing Grace"?  And how long after it were they once again playing hands with party politics?  It sickens me to see where we have gone, and what we have become.

    Again, perhaps I am not meant to see as deeply as you do in such things.  We need people such as you to stand as a watch guard on the city walls and cry out when the enemy is coming, from without or within.  My job is to cry out for my brothers and sisters in Jesus to drop their denominational pretensions and to know Christ, even as they are known.  You are an eye...I am a foot.  Together we make the Body of Christ.

    Cry out, my brother, from the heart God has given you!  Fear not anything, except the government which I KNOW has already become aware of your words...

    I stand before our God with an open and pure heart, a heart cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb.

    Take care, my brother.  Watch thyself...

Love in Jesus,

Your brother,
Jim Grayson

Hi Jim,

You are coming through loud and clear. What you have felt in your heart is from God and we are bearing spiritual witness with each other. I remember when I was putting up prophetic words all those years under the five-fold today series and how many I could bear witness to. You for sure. After 9/11, there was a definite shift from those that truly hear the Lord and from those who presumptuously speak for God when God is silent. Speaking for Bush's god is a sickness where the truth no longer matters. I respect you as a prophet with the guts to speak out for truth.

You sought out God and were not disappointed. You have the perfect view of the remnant, of those that do not compromise in their faith nor run to political solutions for the spiritual problems in the world. Your trust is in the true God of a heavenly kingdom, not a political one that tries to take the kingdom by force.

I do fear man sometimes when I speak out. We live in a somewhat free country, at least we have free speech. But I do feel that there are prying eyes and spies around my web site, but hey, there are millions of other web sites that talk the same talk, just not in a spiritual way. My words may be inflammatory but they are not dangerous, I preach peace, not war, I am not a terrorist and I love my country and can recognize the true patriots that have not compromised with political ideologies that rush to war. Worshiping a false god is spiritual, not political.


When going over your e-mail I felt an urge to read one of your prophetic words that I had decided to include in the five-fold today articles. Under one of them is one that I wrote just after the 9/11 tragedies. It is interesting since it includes what I wrote about Habakkuk. Here it is:


Return To Me

Have I not said that I would raise you up for this hour? Have I not said that if you would repent and turn to me with all of your hearts that I would relent and heal your land? Have I not told you that judgment was coming to a rebellious and stiffnecked people? I have told you over and over that I am coming with a mighty and terrible swift sword. Mens hearts will faint. The daughter of My people is about to be spoiled.

Have I not said that I will bring terrible and swift justice if you would not repent? Have I not asked you to choose this day whom you will serve? Have I not set before you life and death? Choose life so that you may live long in your land. Come to me and I will protect you but hear me now: return to your mediocrity and I will leave you there.

Yes it is time to repent, not to rise up in anger but in sack cloth and ashes. It is time for weeping and mourning for a wayward church, time to fast and pray for those of the sword, of the famine and of the captivity in the heart of Babylon. Rise up out of the valley of death and into the valley of vision for this is where you will see yourselves as I do.

You have prophesied peace when there was no peace. Your prophets have given you smooth words yet many have warned of the judgment coming to the contentious but you would not listen. You have lived deliciously and surrounded yourselves with the lusts and pleasures of this world but now I say to you that this is the beginning of sorrows. Eyes have not seen and ears have yet to hear what I am about to do.

You are always seeking for an enemy to blame but I say to you that you are your own enemy. You look for justice and retribution but I say look to yourself. Yes you must suffer grief in many tribulations but the trial of your faith must be tested in this fire to be proven pure. As soon as you seek to destroy the evil, you join the evil against Me in the valley of Megiddo. You want to die for me? Choose love, compassion, humility and truth. Be strength to the needy in this distress and you will be fodder for the fire of my altar. Rend your hearts and return to Me.

I have told you over and over that I am coming with a mighty and terrible swift sword. Mens hearts will faint. I have raised you up but did I not also say that I raise up the Chaldeans to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs? A tumultuous city lies in rubble not slain with the sword, nor dead in battle but from indignation. Would I have used the uncircumsized against the house of Israel if they had not disobeyed me? Have I not sent Abaddon the destroyer from the pits of darkness to execute my judgments?

And who says to me that there is blame to go around in flesh and blood? Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord; I will repay. I will contend with him that contends with you, and I will save My children. Behold as your rulers run to the archers. Witness the fire that they send from the heavens. And know that I Am the Lord and not a man that I should glory in what you do.

Submitted by Jay Atkinson

Jay, I have been looking at this article and find it interesting. Just for your information, I have a background with the Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal traditions and have studied a lot about mysticism. I consider myself very ecumenical.  I work as a consultant in human resource development and quality improvement and live in Mexico City, which has been my home for over 40 years.

One of my heroes of the 20th century was Gandhi...he showed us the power of non-violence.

Could you tell me a little more about Latter Rain?
George Pigueron  

Hi George,

The latter rain revival and movement are two separate things, I am not part of a latter rain movement but I do believe that the prophetic words spoken in the latter rain revival signaled the last days generation. The latter Rain Page is my own and differs considerably with many of the people that believe in the latter rain. The latter rain is a spiritual concept from the Bible and is usually referred to as the spiritual outpouring to come in the last days. It includes remnant teaching with a distrust of the teaching of mainline churches and a plea to flee Babylon. I believe that the rain is yet to fall.

I loved Ghandi too. Some of my heroes were Desiderius Erasmus, Teilhard de Chardin, Oscar Romero, Salvador Allende. Many more if I were to think about it. Each of them had that love of Jesus and the gospel preached to the poor that made them stand out above the rest. I pray that we could be as close to Jesus.

I consider myself a mystic too. That sounds odd to Christians that deny prophetic power but it helps me to recognize the difference.


Concerning your question - 'muslims being called by God as instruments of judgement'...

In my quiet time, a couple of years ago I wrote in the margin of my bible the word 'muslim' while reading Hab 1:6

This is confirmation for me

Mary Law

Thanks Mary, your letter is confirmation for me too.


Habakkuk 2:6-7

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this book.  I decided to read it after seeing your email, and, although you did not reference the verses above, I was immediately struck by them.  I understand what we are doing in Iraq is costing two billion dollars a week. As the current administration has long had a policy of cutting taxes, but is yet fighting an expensive overseas war, it is financing that war by borrowing money.  Our national debt is skyrocketing, and I understand that now around forty per cent of our growing national debt is owed to China.  As the Prophet said, we are loading ourselves with pledges, and I question as did he,  "Will not your debtors suddenly arise and those who awake will make you tremble?  Then you will be booty for them."

Thanks again,

James Cooke

Right on James,

The evidence is irrefutable. China was always referred to as the sleeping giant. Not so sleepy any more. The U.S. with all its wealth is the largest debtor nation in the world. This foolish war in Iraq will go down in history as one of the world's greatest blunders and Bush supporters as the greatest fools.


I do not believe this because mystery Babylon does not fit the description of America.  7 hills?  I fully believe The Catholic Church is Babylon and REV 18:4 refers to the saved remnant in the Catholic Church coming out of the Catholic church.

Hi Domenic,

Years ago, I had the same opinion as you do about the Catholic Church. It was what I was taught from Protestant scholars. This is the verse from Revelation 17:9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

Thanks for the input


Descendants of Ishmael Are Our Brethren

"What do you think. Let us know. What of the question of the Muslims being called by God as instruments of judgment? Other than their own, they are feared, hated, seen as murderous monsters reserved for judgment from God themselves. Questions to ponder, fear and hatred are volatile subjects. A lot of discussion on this subject in the dialogue. What can you bring to the discussion? Jay"
You know, God made two covenants. He made a covenant with Ishmael when he and his mother Hagar were banished to the desert. And of course there is the Abrahamic Covenant, also. At the time of Abraham's burial, both Ishmael and Isaac saw to the burial arrangements and the scriptures tell us that Ishmael's sons were 12 also. And they were princes who lived in castles. Both lines are the seed of Abraham.

That said, Muslims being feared and seen as murderous monsters is the same label that Israel had upon it when they invaded Canaan. And the same labels were applied to the rulers of the northern kingdoms when they conducted the crusades. Now, I'm going to say it. WE Americans invaded a nation not our own. (Iraq). Took over by force, the running of their nation. Due to American governmental efforts the entire infrastructure of the country was destroyed during desert storm, bombs killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children and elderly and other civilians. Sanctions doomed hundreds of thousands more to death from disease and starvation. And at the point of a gun we are telling them and the world that we came to "free" them???? Are we as a nation really that stupid? To accept the party "line" and say we are there to promote democracy? With bombs and soldiers and guns?

The Iraqis did not assault our shores. We packed up and invaded them and killed many. And now the powers that be want us to call THEM the terrorists. This is Alice In Wonderland and we've all gone down the rabbit hole and are in full attendance at the Mad Hatter's tea party.

So that's what __I__think. Is the gestapo going to now turn up at my door and haul me off to some undisclosed place where I will languish till I die or they kill me now that I have no rights of habeus corpus under the Constitution trashed by the Bush administration?


Hi Cassandra,

Everything you say is true. As to the question: Are we that stupid? Yes we are. Americans are stupid in that so many believe the lies that their government are telling them or they are so stupid as to reject the lies and are too afraid to stand up and denounce them. This is what I really like about this forum and love America, there are only a few of us willing to stand up for the truth yet at least we have the opportunity to take that stand. This is a credit to a free country that has the freedom to speak out without repercussion. It is fear however that keeps people that know the truth for speaking out. Fear of rejection from a false spirit majority and fear of an administration that think those that tell the truth are aiding the terrorists.

That is what I believe should be discussed, what keeps those who know what is really going on from speaking out as one voice. It is a spiritual problem, not a political one. We need leaders who can take us into the spiritual areas of truth with boldness and confidence, someone who we can follow as unto the Lord.

The great tribulation that people are facing today is mostly not in our country, it is directed toward other countries in the name of our freedom. Just try to stand up for truth in a third world country and you may be killed by right wing death squads. As long as people like Bush are in control here, we here have nothing to fear. Put God's people in power that will take from our riches and give to the poor, then we must be afraid of people like Bush. Trashing our president seems to be a national sport nowadays, this will change the more that people recognize the truth and the more Bush responds by curtailing our freedoms. That is a sad state of affairs and a damning indictment on our country.


The fact that many who oppose what has happened to the framework of a righteous government have not had success is because a large majority of them seek, actively, to negate anything spiritual. Wanting to make the whole movement merely political. But you are correct. It is definitely a spiritual war.

At this point I do not feel that rebuilding Babylon is a proper focus. We are told by Christ in the New Testament that the days just prior to His return will be as the days of Noah. The society then had become so rotten that even God did not foresee saving it. Today, the arks are our homes, our faith, and obedience to the will of God. That would include our "gathering" the lost that are willing to enter with us. Just as there was a point that the Lord told Noah to pull up the gangplank, we are in my opinion very close to that time in this dispensation. It's beginning to rain. I hear the thunder and see the lightening in the distance. And like the Apostles who saw the Lord walking across the water on the windy sea, and were afraid, I hear Him saying, "Fear not. It is I". Declaring the Gospel, and completing the gathering is of utmost importance. Fighting the windmills of Babylon at this point will not have success. It's too far gone in iniquity. Through and through. Rotten.

The only solution at this point is for the Lord to return and usher in the Millennium, in my opinion.
Ephesians 6:
 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Revelation 18:
 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
  3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
  4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Lists like this do provide a platform for raising the warning voice. We are like the FEMA people that make that last run through the neighborhoods with loudspeakers seeking the endangered and lost just prior to a deadly hurricane.

Hi Cassandra,

You are completely right, there is no rebuilding of Babylon. It will fall as the luke-warm church is spit out of God's mouth. This is what makes remnant teaching so important. We really are getting out of Babylon and part of rebuilding the temple. We are the living stones, Jesus is the mortar that binds us together. Soon I hope to write a book about getting the church out of darkness. A lot of spiritual roadblocks in the way, nothing that God can't handle.


Bobby wrote:

Did you all know that the great seal of the United States was made back in 1789,and was formed by Masons. The back side of the one dollar bill has on one side a pyramid with an all seeing eye, and the other side an eagle with the star of David above it. Our nation's seal was reintroduced on the dollar by Franklin Roosevelt when he stopped the gold standard on all paper money in the late 1940's. It was Roosevelt who assigned Social Security Numbers too. And this is fact, he was a mason also. If you look at the pyramid, there is a secret code that can be broken. The masons are a society with secrets, and as you graduate higher in degrees, more is revealed. The basic masons just join to gain social mobility. But they have no clue what the higher degrees are all about. George Bush is a Mason and so is his Dad. If anyone is interested, I'll show you. But once you learn the truth. It will only lead to more mysteries about our government. Is it possible that our great seal that was made almost 250 years ago be the mark of the beast in revelations. I'll let you make that decision. Is anyone brave enough to see how far down this rabbit hole goes.

Your brother in Christ. Bobby

Hi Bobby,

I have heard all this masons stuff before and it always seems like scaremongering. There is no power higher than God Almighty and why should I be concerned about what the world gets up to so long as I am not getting up to it. It is just a hopeless thing to imagine that our governments and our leaders are going to be pure as the driven snow: they are not.

Personally I am as disinterested in Americanism as I am in anti-Americanism. I have some lovely American friends who have all kinds of different political beliefs. I have some rather beautiful  British friends too and we all have a different perspective that adds a somewhat different slant to the end times Christian view.

One of the big threats I see to walking in the Spirit in these days is political intellectualism. Anything that tends to clubbiness is so quenching to what Jesus would have us do that I tend to shun it. Anything that tends to love others in spite of how low they have sunk is what Jesus wants of us, and I yield to that. There is none more important than any other, in His eyes:

Jesus loves George Bush.

I can say all this with confidence because I have experienced the love of Jesus in the pit of my sinking way down into the depths. I believe that phariseeism, that is, this dreadful looking-down on others from a seemingly lofty spiritual height, is from the absolute pit of hell. I think the church, even the born-again baptised in the Holy Ghost church, needs a wake-up call and a reality check right now before it slides into that terrible delusion that all is not well among the Christian world except in their particular cosy corner... and then it closes its eyes to the need to change.

All is not well, and WE are the problem. Our pride and our arrogance will separate us distinctly from everything that Jesus calls us to do.

In the love of God.


Hi Mary,  Don't get me wrong. I'm not out to scare anyone.  Just letting in the light in a world of darkness.  Just remember, God calls us into his holiness.  He is Holy first. It was out of his love that he sent his son Jesus Christ, from his death we are made holy from his blood.  If anyone thinks he is righteous, he is a fool.  All works mean nothing in God's eyes unless they are built upon the cornerstone of his son.

His GRACE is this,  Thank the Father for sending his Son,  Thank the Son for shedding his blood, and Thanking the Holy Spirit for leading us into the truth. This is what moves me to share these thoughts of evil.  To show them to a world which is unwilling to see the light which is in Christ.  What I have to offer is not to be heard but seen with your own eyes.  To scare you. No!  To know thy enemy   Yes!!!! Wishing away this darkness because one is saved is no better than being a Pharisee. Did not the Jews think they were saved?  Did they not believe that God was all powerful,  Did they not look down on others as imperfect?

There is nothing wrong with being an American.  Trust me Europe has its own problems too.  And there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim.  God judges the heart, and only the heart.  Mary you speak of God's love as a piece of bubble gum.  True love is showing someone what's best for them.  You have children right.  You love them so you teach them so they don't get hurt.  You want to protect them.  I think Jesus may mourn for George Bush.  But he's out to protect his own first, and for us to spread the good news of this special love.  Why do you think the bible warns us so much about feeding our fleshly desires.  Because feeding the body leads to death.  When we die our flesh rots, but our spirits have to go somewhere don't they?

A spirit that has been newly released from dying is very venerable.  One that is of light goes to the light and one that has been fed darkness has no choice but to go that way too.  Do you not believe that God loves these souls too, that are cast out in complete darkness.  But remember God is Holy first.  He has no choice but to condemn them. The bible speaks of this,  Not to mention that Jesus spoke of hell several times.  We are not talking about repenting hearts here.  We are talking about people who just don't care.  And if you think Bush's God is the same God that we worship, you are very much mistaken.  Our God preaches to be peacekeepers and to love thy enemy.  His God preaches to win at all cost. even when his own voters have said enough is enough.

In a nutshell God's love is Jesus Christ.  He is our light through the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of truth  Thus, God's love is shown though his son, and his son's love is shown through the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit shows us the truth.  To recognize it and change for the better is a far better love then, to just apply it to others who think they are Gods themselves.  This does not say that Bush can't repent. He can wholeheartedly. But until then, He is God's enemy.

Thanks  Hugs and Kisses from the Holy Spirt.


That was beautify Mary.  I believe we as christians are only called to proclaim Christ.  That is the gospel.  As true disciples are made and we continue to grow in Christ our views will come to resemble his and not any particular political agenda.   And that view is the Love God gave to the world through his son.  The more truly Christ like we become, the more we will agree with scripture and manifest the true calling of Christ.

We will speak the truth in Love and not to condemn, but that others may know the truth and be made free.  The truth has nothing to do with our personal opinions or preferences or what we think should be good by our own hearts.  Most politics are clouded with personal opinions rather than the truth of scripture.

And so we bow our knee to scripture which testifies of the Son Of God and acknowledge the scriptures as true and God inspired and count our own opinions as lies except where they agree with scripture.  I  believe it is more fruitful to simply proclaim the gospel according to whatever it says and not to get into political debates.

Each person will determine if he will agree with the scripture or hold his opinion above the scripture that is based on the prophets and apostles and Jesus Christ the cornerstone.  So if a political agenda is in direct opposition to scripture, I feel I am only to say what scripture says and not debate the politics.

Debating the politics is not going to change the heart of another person if he has already chosen his politics and what he views as a revelation newer and better than what has been God breathed and left by the prophets and apostles for our learning.  I can not change a person whom the Holy Spirit has not changed.

And so I should avoid needless debating and merely proclaim the gospel and not shun the truth.  I believe all christians should focus on proclaiming Christ in truth.  Those who receive the true whole heatedly will be changed and will manifest the truth.

Choosing one truth and making it a badge of righteousness while neglecting the others is akin to phariseeism.  As Jesus said to the pharisees:

MT 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness.

This does not mean we should not speak the truth, but we should declare the truth because of genuine concern for our fellow man and not to elevate ourselves to a superior light because of a position we hold that may be true.  Once the truth has been said there is no point in endless debates which frustrates the hearers.

Every person has the right to chose truth or lies, light or darkness.  Each will chose that which he loves.  We are to continue to proclaim Christ and find those who will believe the truth whole heartedly and find no offense in it.  There is no point in getting bogged down in political debates.  When we proclaim Christ and not our own righteousness we have truly shown Love to another.  And this Love saves those who receives it.

Love from Gene

Hi Mary and Bobby,

I have to agree and disagree in part with both of these positions. First, I see a real significant Masonic connection with the beginnings of our history as a prophetic symbol but I see it as ignorance, not the conspiratorial evil that a lot of people ascribe to it. Too much of it smacks of paranoia and seems to take us away from the real problems with what is going on that is spiritual in nature. The same with the skull and bones society. George Bush Jr. went to Yale not because he was an exceptional student but because he was of the Bush family and that is why he was picked for skull and bones. I would think that Bush Jr. couldn't care less about skull and bones or the Masons any more than he did about school. There may be a symbolic connection to the devil in all this but he can't be faulted for being apathetic about it any more than he can if he was enthusiastic. He was a party animal, not a political one.

Jesus may love George Bush but to do that, He has to love everyone the same. George Bush worships a false Jesus and the same false Christ is worshiped by many Christians. To me, this is the real issue and that is getting the church back to the true God, even if it is only a remnant.

It hasn't been that long so most of us remember Theodore from Africa. He was not American but was a conservative right wing fundamentalist with all the arrogance, intolerance and false authority that went with it. This is among many reasons that I cannot come to accept that America alone is Babylon, there are too many people caught up with that mindset around the world, how can you get out of Babylon if it is your own country. So I agree Mary, being pro-American or being anti-American is irrelevant if not counter productive, it makes no difference because doing so would be political, not spiritual.

I am getting a lot of people trying to get me from speaking in such political tones. They are missing the point, worshiping a false god is definitely spiritual and getting back to the true God has to come from the true spirit. If our political choices are not spiritual or our secular life is not spiritual, we are not being led by the spirit, it is as simple as that.

For example, I see people here voting against education because they do not have kids in school. There are people that vote against the elderly because they are young; there are privileged white people voting against minority civil rights and the poor, not caring about social issues that do not affect them personally. These are spiritual choices, not just apathetic political ones. If we all believed that we are our brothers keeper, it would not be a problem but there is great apostasy, not only in America but around the world. People are voting according to their own self interest to keep their taxes down and then blind to the economic forces they unleash that impoverish them. We have among of the worlds worst education and health care systems in the world simply because the people are purposely in the dark about everything. The majority don't care. That is more than political intellectualism, it is blindness and you are right it is phariseeism and we need a wake up call but I cannot believe that I am part of the problem, I have been saying the same thing for years. I think my problem is that I do not speak out with enough power nor often enough.


I'm glad we have a moderate in the house Jay, lol,  Mary tends to be more liberal and me hard core fundamentalist.  All I'm saying is this,  Are we not the body of christ?  Are we not his voice until he returns.  Will we stay quiet, and our polar ice caps melt, and half the sea life vanishes in our life times,  Will we ever help the poor, or the elderly,  Will we ever be a Voice of truth against, sinful selfishness?  Did not Jesus ask us to take up our cross too.  Our duty, our responsibility, to a dying sinful world,  Are we not the salt? which give the world its flavor,  Kinda hard to do that when we hide in church, and then go eat a big meal at ryan's, then go back to our materialistic ways. 61/2 days a week.

Can there not be a nonviolent why to speak our minds.  Just as Christ did so long ago.  I'm not talking religion here, nor politics, but spiritual worldly decisions that effect all of us in the flesh.  Are we to give up, and say I'm not worried about it,  I'm gonna get raptured anyways,  which is a fairy tale to me. When will we have a great movement in this world to heal instead of killing.

Yes  I'm just one man, but Elijah was one man,  Moses was one man, and David was one man.  Who's willing to step up to the plate, and hit a home run for Jesus.

Thanks  Bobby

Thanks Bobby,

In Ephesians four, Paul writes that we are to speak the truth in love. I think from the responses that some are more concerned with truth while others may be more concerned with love. Obviously both are to be taken into consideration if we are to mature in Christ. It is not enough to love if we remain in darkness about what is going on in the world and still make wrong decisions, even if it is political decisions. It would be better not to vote at all and leave it to the informed minority. The sons of God are those led by His spirit and when they are revealed in these last days, it will be according to the truth in love.

What Mary said was true, what Gene said was true. But I see too many discussions with people taking sides with their own version of truth, not willing to come together with thus saith the Lord unless it agrees with their version of their own half of the truth. It's not enough to hit a home run in this apostate and divided church unless we are all holding the same bat.


You are so right Jay,  You are truly anointed, a Son of the Holy one.  We all are!!! if people would dare to dream.  Remember the days when we was all young and idealistic about the world then as we grew and took on responsibilities, we had to submit to the pressures of life to perform.  What a wake up call for a teenager or for a person fresh out of college.  We had to follow the rules to achieve something in this world.  To be someone.  We had to follow the world.

Well after all these years,  materialism hasn't made me happy.  Being ambitious hasn't made me happy.  Wanting more, more and more has not made me happy.  Then one day I woke up from the delusion,  the best day of my life, and the most horrific day of fear.  I was thinking "God," was I that lost?  Not only that but look at everybody else.  They are lost too.  I have to try to save them no matter the cost.  Just like Paul.  No matter the cost.  If showing them God won't change a person's life, then maybe if I show them the Devil, maybe they will start thinking. The devil is here, and he has ministers of light as well as ministers of darkness.

Satan's kingdom is full of symbols too,  And symbols are very important because they have a unconscious effect on the human psyche.  The bible is full of symbols.  Every business has a symbol or trademark.  Most major religions use some sort of symbol, good or bad.  Symbols believe it or not have a impact on us, and on our money,  The great seal of the United States is a symbol, a symbol that is referred to in the bible.  The beast that rises out of the sea with two horns that appears to be a lamb but speaks like a dragon, will cause all to worship the mark of the beast.  The beast is a POLITICAL GOVERNMENT.  John called Rome a beast.  And the only part of the revived Roman empire I see is Israel.  After thousands of years it magically reappears from death and destruction.  And who gives power to this first beast that has been wounded mortally yet remains alive?  The new ROMAN empire, which is the United States along with it's allies.

As far as I'm concerned, God will have his dealings with the Jew's.  They will one day convert, but for now they are AntiChrist.  Not only that,  The Jew's in Israel, only make up two of the twelve tribes,  the other ten were lost, and scattered.  The only remnant left are the ones from Judea, and a fragment of Levites.  Is it not possible that when Jesus said he was here to gather his lost sheep, he really meant it literally, thus the birth of Christianity.  To gather his elect.  I take a Historist view of revelations,  To me revelations is a history book of sorts. Right now we are in the phase of the MARK,  but you know what happens next in the story,  The Great Reaper comes to reap the harvest for the world is ripe.  This will shake the world and turn it upside down, and the seven last plagues quickly follow this event.  Rapture?  No way, think again my friends,   Judgement!!!!!! And when judgment comes,  The Sons' of God will be ready to help our Lord Christ, the nonbelievers will need a friend, someone who really loves them,  someone who will lead them to the true light of the Messiah Christ.  So when he does return to earth physically.  His church will be perfect.  We have our baseball bats.  We just haven't been told to swing them yet.  Let's us pray for the lost, and may Christ kingdom come.

A warrior in Christ    Bobby.

Hi Jay and All, has to take the higher place than truth because it is only through love that the church will be able to unite and come to a complete  knowledge of the truth. It means taking a deep breath when someone is different and hearing what their heart is saying even though the words may be ones we wouldn't choose ourselves. Even though the politics may oppose and the intellect may be inferior or the status may be something seemingly beneath us, whether that be spiritual, financial, intellectual, whatever.

Only time I draw the line at that is when others suffer as a result. On this group we have to keep our heads and be considerate, not let anyone swamp the dialogue too much with what thing they want to push personally. And in the interests of keeping the peace we can surely say what we mean without becoming abusive.

I believe in deliberate ignorance on occasions if it means that love will overcome and get us to a better point of action in the church. Yes, deliberate ignorance. It is love covering over a multitude of sins. That pharisee eye is all for pointing out the error. We do it all too much. And also we have  been lulled into forgetfulness about the Jezebel spirit that would flatter and then try to take the control.

We can't afford to opt out of politics as Christians in these end times. I can no more vote for a government that hates the poor than I can fly in the air. But my vote is one very small part of who I am in Christ. And in Christ I will not be made to hate and I will not be made to think myself something when I am nothing and I will not be made to behave towards any other human as though they are garbage. As nothing, I am at least loved in the Lord. Let me be one with the garbage. I am so sick of all this fawning and parading like peacocks, who has the anointing, who is the Elijah among us.

Since someone mentioned Paul, he was very respectful always to the authorities. He was a good example and a fine ambassador for Christ, in that his diametric opposition spiritually (and also surely politically) to the carnal authority already in place never prevented him from being the perfect gentleman in speech and in demeanour. In such a way God honoured him: doors opened, the Word went out in living flesh.

Of course we have to know what is going on in the world, but that should not make us divide in the church or be hateful or rude towards each other, or try to raise ourselves up as mini messiahs or compromise what we know to be right.

Whatever it looks like out there, we have to have the Rock and Him active within:

Peace; Love; Truth; Gentleness; Meekness; Goodness...those things fill me with comfort when I see them in others.

Love always,


Hi Mary,

I don't mean any disrespect to your beliefs, but I'm a realist. First, we are human, and our love is imperfect. Second our love comes from Christ, not from our hearts, because human hearts can become weak or mislead by emotion. God's word shows us true love. And that love comes from truth. Once we learn the truth then we can truly love. For example, How can one ask for forgiveness, unless one learns the truth that he is a sinner? How can one learn to forgive others until he learns that Jesus Christ has forgiven him.

The bible says that truth will set you free. Free to do what? To love. And how do we love. By telling people about the good news, That Jesus has given us a free gift of love, and we should share it with others, who want to hear. This does not have anything to do with works, Now good works of love do show God's glory but they don't save a soul. Only the truth saves a soul. Are we to love the sinner, and not the sin, of course, because we are sinners. But here is the point, The day of grace will end. This beautiful free gift will stop, It's not that God has stopped loving, it's because humans have stop loving. It will!!! The bible says so, John's revelation isn't a love poem. It's about judgment. And the bible does call out 144,000 witnesses, This is his little flock. His first fruits, The best of the best he has to offer, right before Great Babylon is destroyed. It's there Chapter 13 to Chapter 14 in revelations, read both chapters.

Now the discussion was about the end times. If we are truly in the end times. Then my argument is completely reasonable. The fact is this, grace ends as soon as judgments come. Just remember, there is no grace in punishment. But in punishment there is still love. It's not very graceful to punish your children, but you do it because you love them. Your right Paul was a wonderful man, a true lover of humanity and of Christ. A man full of grace. But John was Christ's favorite, He was also coined the name "Son of thunder", and a living witness to Christ teachings, John was a passionate, fiery and one of the most loving of all. I understand what your saying, God is love and he is. This comes from John himself. But we are talking about end time judgments to come and the mark of the beast. If people won't here the TRUTH which is Jesus loves them and wants to save them, Then his love won't protect them from judgment.

Now is this all gonna happen in your lifetimes. perhaps. If it does, we should get prepared. Jesus preached that we should pray and watch for his coming. And John specifically warns us to have wisdom in the last days. Your right love does cover a multitude of sins. But that love doesn't come from us, It comes from Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit. As for the church it will never come together ever under these existing circumstances. It needs to be purified. And unfortunately the unconditional love bubble will have to burst for this to happen. Sorry If this offends your sensibilities, but sometimes the truth hurts like a double edged sword.

Pray for mercy for all humanity because we are all wretched, and fall so short of his glory.

Peace be with you


Hi Mary,

Love has always taken the higher place because God is love and you are right, love will conquer all yet not just leading to truth but because of it. Ignorance is bliss only to those that choose to be ignorant, for sure the Lord would not have us ignorant. What you are talking about is loving people in spite of their faults and lack of truth but are you there backing me up on this or not? Jesus said that He was the way, the truth and the Life. The way is where we should be and that truth is absolute, the life is the result. They may all add up to love but all must be evident if the church is to mature to the point of a perfected Bride and come to unity. Unity is more than love, it is in agreement to the truth.

I remember years ago when I left the church because of the lack of love I received that I ran into the Jehovah's witnesses. What attracted me to them was first the outreach and dedication and then especially was the love they had for each other. Not until I studied on my own did I find out that although the love and unity was there the truth was not in them. I don't know, perhaps love covers all their ignorance, I know that I have had Jehovah witness friends since that treated me better than a lot of so called spiritual Christians but they also wanted to take me down a false path. Perhaps it is that devilish ignorance that keeps the enemy at bay, maybe we should all be more like Jehovah witnesses. At any rate, I will love them anyway but are they truly saved if they reject the truth in full measure? This is the type of love you are standing for and I agree but only the Lord can lead us to truth.

When you speak of deliberate ignorance, it is in the sense of looking the other way at times for the benefit of others, that is good, in fact it is the way God looks at our sin from the eyes of grace but not the same as choosing ignorance in order to be in the dark about spiritual things or to use grace to justify a sinful life. This is what we are talking about, the deliberate choice of avoiding anything that tends to challenge our own prejudice or fleshly desires. It is not holiness, it is not growth. I sin all too often but I cannot ignore sin simply because I am a sinner under grace, I must admit to it to maintain a ministerial anointing, repent and ask for repentance. How many times? Too many and God is faithful and just to forgive me but that does not condone it and love is a meager excuse to use God's grace to cover bad habits. It is too much like self love or sharing love for others simply to please ourselves. You are right about the Jezebel spirit but that spirit also entices one to sin and we must not be ignorant of her devices.

God does not want you to be parading around like a peacock but He does not want you treating yourself like garbage either.

Of course we should not treat others in a rude or judgmental fashion, Jesus didn't. He did not condemn the sinner, He accepted them but then told them to sin no more. As far as division, we are commanded to flee Babylon. I think that we should finally come to terms with what this means. Is this not the only legitimate division that the Lord would have for us? I would hope so for Jesus is coming after a perfect Bride without spot or wrinkle, not one that compromises for the sake of love and unity.


Hi Bobby,

Interesting that you consider yourself a hard core fundamentalist since your theology is definitely of a liberal bent. I don't mean the type of false liberal that uses grace as a license to sin but the true liberality of championing human and civil rights, the tolerance to love others not like ourselves, standing up for the rights of the poor and elderly and showing love, generosity and equality. I see most fundamentalists as being quite illiberal so you are an enigma to me.

That's a compliment by the way.


Hi Jay,  What I mean by fundamentalist, is in the pure sense of the word.  I think the bible is pure and complete,  we can not add to it, yet it has mysteries for all of us to unravel.  Basically all of Gods mysteries are in the Bible, but if you see it all in carnal eyes.  You miss the true intention of the bible, and to go further the parables that Christ speaks of.

I'm a mystic  Jay.  This is the only true way to understand the secrets.  We all have our personal walk with Christ,  He is a personal savior to all.  I have spent years on mediation on the word.  The Rhema as you call it.  I agree with this.  I take the fundamental stance as in pure and complete.  But this doesn't mean that the bible is dead.  It is very much alive.  For all those who dare to dream.  I mourn for the world truly, Jay,  I am the least in God's kingdom.  I am a wretched soul.  My only purpose in life and my true calling is to only exalt my King.  I am on a one way mission.  And I will not let anything stand in my way.  If I see evil, I will smite it with Holy words.  As I am commanded,  not by the bible but the one who I receive my daily anointing from.  He places it right in the center of my forehead, I can actually feel the pressure of it.  In the beginning years ago I was very afraid of it,  I had no clue what it was until I started going to a Pentecostal church and they explained it to me.

In the beginning Jay,  I didn't have a lovely experience with God,  I was a philosophy student, third year in college,  When I had my Baptism by Fire, It was a horrible experience,  My flesh did not like it.  I wanted to run from it.  It was so Holy,  So pure.  This presence.  He only said one thing to me after a hour of torment.  When it was all done.  He said I was a priest forever in  the order of Melchizedek.  He ask me to give a oath outloud, and I did.   This was 15 years ago.  Now in that time I have led my life  Good and Bad, but about a year ago.  I started receiving visions of a Angry God.   A God that was truly unhappy with his Church.  A God that was completely and absolutely furious with Christianity itself.  He told me he was gonna smite the church, and that I had 8 years to save as many people as I could before the day of grace ends, and the day of the Lord begins.  What a frightful day that will be.

Now listen Jay,  I'm a very rational man.   I questioned my own insanity, until he showed me signs with witnesses,  The people around me know something is going on with me and God.  What it is all about.  I still do not know,  He only gives me chunks of information at a time.  No exact dates, and so on.  He does tell me that prayer is the only power that Satan can't prevent.  And from time to time  God does change his time and delay things.  Nothing is in concrete.  He tells me that he is all powerful, but his power is limited,  because of his cardinal rule of free will.  He tells me that being a true disciple,  I have to personally chose to limit my free will to serve him the best that I can.  And I have,  I'm a slave,  but still a young one.  I too, still battle the flesh from time to time,  I have this one particular sin, that is a thorn in my flesh,  that I mourn for him to remove,  but I know this sin keeps me humble.  So I don't end up exalting myself.  He is right,  I can not be trusted.  I am a human being.  So maybe now you all understand my uncompromising directness, and the fire of conviction I have obsessively.  What would you do if God told you this.  He hates the devil and he hates the symbols that men have created.  (idols).  He hates that we haven't been good stewards of his earth which is not ours.  He hates that every time a homeless angel, begs for money or food,  he has to go to a government regulated shelter or food bank. Because most cities ordinances ban the right to be homeless.  The most powerful spiritual creatures on this earth are the homeless,  Why?  Because they don't conform to governments or men's ideas of what is right or wrong. I truly idolize these people.  We can learn from them.  And church has become a joke.  We see all these injustices going on in a so called Christian nation, yet we have no stomach to eat the real meat of Christ.  We are all a bunch of spoiled, middle class, brats, sucking the milk of Christ dry.

Go live in Africa for a few weeks, and you will be so thankful just for a warm shower.  America is to be a beacon of brotherly love.  Yet, America, the leader, has become a house of whores.  Along with its whore Israel.  The fact of rebuilding a temple is an abomination to Jesus,  is he not our temple  or sacrifice.  Why would christians want for Jews to start the daily sacrifices.  This is a slap in the face to Christ and his blood ransom.  Once and for all  Jesus is a King,  And a King is a political position.  Why did the Jews have him killed.  Because he was a political and spiritual threat.  He was the Son of Man, yet people seen his wonders, and said  he must be the King.  Jesus is a King for the broken hearted, the abused, and the damned.  He is our mercy.  I am not repeat NOT a pharisee, nor am I a control freak,  All I offer is the truth.  Take it or leave it. But heave my warning Christians.  This church will be smited.  While you all wish for unity.  It will come, but not in the way you think.   The only unity will be survival.  And a direct choice between God and the Mark.  I mourn greatly.   Go ahead tell me I'm evil or crazy.  Who is really the Pharisee here?  I have heard it a hundred times.   Let us pray for the lost and the damned.


Hi Bobby,

Yes, I am that kind of fundamentalist also but I cannot bear to call myself one since there are so many types of false fundamentalism in the church today, the word has been spoiled. Fundamentalism to me is all sorts of different church traditions and false doctrines peculiar to denominations and church movements that all think they have the end all to wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Each with their own brand of fundamentalism.

I am a mystic too. most Christians are to a certain extent but many think it is witchcraft or something, a lot of fundamentalists do. We have a similar testimony and I often get e-mail from people that also had doubted their sanity when they received their vision. Then they see my site and find that there are others with the same visions and send me the e-mails. I never doubted my sanity because my background was in Christian history before the end time visions so it all kind of came together at once. Other people sure thought I was crazy though. I am sure you understand that they still do.


Hi Bobby,

Just making sure we have a few ground rules here.

It needs to be said that whatever truth we think we have, it is only partial as long as the body is divided. That is realism. I am saying that in order to get the fuller truth we have to listen to each other and bend to it. Even so the bending must be genuine, i.e., it must come from the heart. That doesn't easily happen when there are many sore members in the body who are intimidated by someone who comes on all knowledgeable and superior.

Also any end times view can't nullify the rest of the Word of God. We are still to love, and make love our aim. Love is action but also passion and it comes from the changed heart. God is passionate about us: so should we be about each other. And Jesus prayed that we would be one.

Maybe you think that discussion of end times prophecy is a strong priority in the days we live. Could well be, but imagine attempting to communicate that on the street, where they are actually hungry and cold. It seems like a luxury they cannot afford.

Having said that I have met some who know by the Spirit of God that things are getting hotter, harder, time is short. They maybe wouldn't tell you that in any churchy kind of words but they know it deep inside. Yet they are beset by troubles of all kinds and are struggling to keep their heads above water: one step up the ladder towards some self-respect...the devil will kick them back down in seemingly equal measure very soon.

I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say and I know you can take what we all might throw at you.
Say on.

Love, Mary

Well said Mary. And right on.

Your view here certainly applies to all where we minister where teaching is of the milk of the word. That includes the evangelical gospel, preaching Christ and Him crucified and love extending to whoever is around us. I have to add though that we are on the lightship in our discussion, not on the streets and what we are discussing according to this thread is especially the mark of the beast and hopefully to the mature in Christ. This doesn't sound like you, it sounds like an echo of someone you are listening to outside the lightship. It sounds like you are not discussing this with us for our edification but for people on the streets. There is another time for that.

Here is one of the main scriptural references: Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Those with no particular political views and on the streets or among the many disenfranchised and oppressed of the poor may not be faulted for having immature views of the Christian life. And we can't treat one with no end time views any differently than one with no views at all. And our discussions may not apply to those that love in spite of the problems around the world. For those that have received wisdom and knowledge, I believe it is quite a different matter. No, I do not want to sound like one of the pharisees that have superior knowledge and speak down to anyone in churchy terms. Where is this coming from? I know that this is not directed to me but to Bobby, I have tried not to do this in the past, I have many times found better fellowship outside the church than inside. I don't want to have to dumb it down for people either but for many, we need to move slower. Bobby can learn in one day how to use humility and respect in what He writes to us but you seem to be antagonizing him and you have been around for years.

Division does not start by discussing it, the division that we are discussing has been around a long time. I believe that it is very important to expose the nature of the beast and warn people of the mark that is taking place than to love each other anyway and simply ignore it. If you love someone, you warn them of the judgment coming. Very, very important, this is a matter of spiritual life and death. The Bible bears me out. Bobby started this thread with a concern to share any insight that he has had on the subject and although we may not necessarily agree on all points, we are discussing it and it is not something that should be dismissed simply out of concerns of love and unity or the compassion we have on people in the street. If there were no nature of the beast, there would not be the problems on the street that you are concerned with. We are here to teach the meat of the word, not milk only and if that means exposing the political and economic forces that put our loved ones out there, then anything we discuss is prophetic, not churchy.

If from the heart, meat is taught and those that have been on milk all of their Christian lives are intimidated, something is wrong. So like I said, you are right on. Yes, love should be our aim but I think I am hearing from you that this end-time discussion is not genuine, it is not from the heart. Correct me if I am wrong but again, I think it is very important. I believe that the mark of the beast is spiritual, not physical and it is definitely political, religious and economic in nature. Those are not taboo topics for me, they are relevant to maturity. If I am wrong, I apologize but not to speak out on this because unknown others are intimidated will not do us nor anyone here any good. Maybe you should elaborate where you think that this discussion is nullifying the word of God and who you think are intimidated. I thought that we are trying to get to the truth.


Dear Mary,  I love you very much sister in Christ,  You are one of God's World Champions,  Just be careful with your love.  Jesus has showed you so much of his that you wanna just paint the whole world with it.  And you know what I mean by this.  I wanna do this too and i will.  Maybe you can give me some pointers.     Your loving brother in Christ


Hi Jay,

I am continuously thinking how our discussion might be translated on the street. They are ignored largely and if I am to involve them in any way I have to remind others that they are there and that much of what we discuss seems like pointlessness when their priorities are so fundamental. It is a question of my solidarity with them partly. Many of us here have different fields of work and I would think that the Lightship has been instrumental in many an offline church discussion. It would be good if this particular discussion could be useful to me, like I have to chew the meat first.

I am a bit pushed for time and probably didn't say things the way I should have but in the end Bobby was great with that. It told me all I needed to know so I can butt out and let you guys get on with it. I will catch up on the dialogue later and maybe I can glean something then.

Love, Mary

Understood Mary,

After I sent the message I thought maybe I was imagining things and said too much and was sorry but you are really more a part of this discussion than you think if you are being preoccupied with your ministry. That is a good thing, not one to disqualify you here so don't butt out, your insight is helpful as long as you see the relevance and that it is not pointless. The mark of the beast in the context of what we are discussing is more relevant than ever simply because we are in the last days and many have taken the mark already, even on the streets. Our collective governments really do comprise the several heads of the beast of revelation and those that trust in them really have taken the mark.

Perhaps the homeless in your area are different than here but I see the gambit. When I was working among the homeless in San Jose, I was part of a homeless advocacy that knew very well the nature of the beast, we were of an activist sort that organized from the left to get things done, looking for solutions, not being part of the problem. We had to fight the homeless shelters to get them to have enough compassion not to treat residents like third-class citizens. I was also a part of homeless people that loved each other and protected each other. God took me out of that to lift me up but at times I miss that environment. Once the church sees things as they are, Jesus can again come to shake up the temple and overturn the moneychangers. This is the manchild and a luke-warm church will hate this and try to kill us. We have to be ready.

Here in Stockton, there is less organization and more of church as usual among the helper community. Among the homeless, there are gangs, racial division, drugs, thievery, exploitation and only a fraction of the love that I saw in San Jose but that it still there too. I go back to San Jose now and see that it has changed there also. Things are getting hotter like your friend says, more hate on all sides. Church as usual will not do it, there must be the elements that challenges the beast that compliment the evangelical gospel instead of nullifying it and getting people on the street to take the mark of the beast themselves. Only knowledge of the truth will solve these problems, love through ignorance will only perpetuate it.


I'm sorry for being so harsh sometimes.  I think Mary is a great Christian,  and has enough love to fill the world.  Love is wonderful, and I need it.  But my hope is in the great double anointing of the Holy Spirit which will unite both the remnant of the church with the remnant of true Israel.  This is what our King want's.  It's hard to explain, but both the church and Israel need each other.

One day the Jew's will convert, and one day the 10 lost tribes will all be reunited in one heavenly outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  Remember everyone.  Christ is both King and Priest.  While Christ takes on the burden of grace,  God's chosen people take on the burden of God's law.  One day this will all make sense.  And one day we will all be one happy family.  But unfortunately,  the wicked of Babylon will be destroyed first.

I wish love could fix everything, sadly Mary not everyone in this world has your glorious point of view.  God only knows, he wishes it too.  Love and truth are one in the same you can't have one with out the other.  Kinda like a Reece's cup commercial.  Anyway's the point of all this was to show you all this little code breaking thing on the back of the dollar bill. That I thought was very clever.  It was showed to me by a high degree mason. Who became a christian, glory to God.  Is it the mark literally, perhaps not, but it makes you think?

As for Mary picking on me.  We'll I think she likes me.  lol.  The new boy in school always gets picked on by the cute girls who have always been around.  Ha ha  Just joking.  You are all gonna love my next topic.


Hehe Bobby, right on. Yep I do like you and thank you for being so cool.

Love, Mary

Hi Bobby,

I have intensely studied the masons, and what you are saying is absolutely true, whether anyone else wants to hear it or not. What is the mark of the beast? Well, that is still up for discussion, but you are right about the Bush family, they proclaim to be a Christian, but their heart is far from HIM, and they have no good spiritual fruit, only bad, that I can see, and they are also members of the Bohemian Grove and skull and Bones. I am sorry if that offends any of you, but truth is truth, and saying you are a believer does qualify you to be a follower of our Saviour, or give you a ticket into eternal life in Heaven. The fallen angels believe and they tremble, but they are not saved. Any branch that does not bear good fruit will be cut off and cast into the fire.

The Bush family along with a long list of our government, congress, senate, and rich elite, belong to these secret societies, and they have quite a hidden agenda going on behind the scenes, while they are deceiving us hiding behind the shirt tails of Christianity, and they are working for the opposite side. You would not believe half of what I know about this if I told you. I would suggest you look up some of these organization secret societies and start being a worthy steward and get you studying done, and quit being deceived.  

I think I might need to explain a little better. The United States is not the only world leaders involved in these secret societies, it is literally world wide, and they are all working behind the scenes for the evil one, and it will usher in and set the conditions up to bring in the government of the anti-christ. First of all, the anti-christ is going to rise up out of the Nations, and he will be a political figure, along with full support from and in "cahoots" with the false prophet.

 To say it does not matter to take a interest or know what is going on with our world and our leaders, will put you in the dark and leave you wide open to deception real fast. Our Heavenly FATHER became real upset with HIS people when they asked for a King, and had rejected HIM as their KING (COVERING). Well, I for one, do not want man ruling over me, I want my Heavenly FATHER, as my covering, (KING, LEADER, AUTHORITY, MASTER, ETC.)I want HIS KINGDOM, HIS laws and rules, not mans. What is the mark of the beast? I do not know for sure what physical type it will take on, but before you can receive anything physical, you have to receive it mentally first, meaning, you have to make a mental choice first, that you are going to be disobedient to our FATHER'S commands, and side with sin, evil.

 The fore-head represents your mind, what you think or choose to do, and your hand represents your actions, or what you do, your deeds done in the flesh. Is the mark actually spiritual and not physical? Or are they both, first spiritual and then physical? I don't know, but Satan has a replica for everything that our Heavenly FATHER has, and our Father told us to take HIS Commandments and wrap them around our hands and put them before the frontlets of our eyes, for a memorial, so that we do not forget them, to do them. Am I standing in judgement of any of these people, no, The WORD says we will know them by their fruit, and to let no man deceive you. Do I love their soul and hate the sin, yes, can they repent, yes, should we pray for them, yes.    

Here I go again, bare with me, but I keep getting this nudge within me, to go into a little more detail.

The anti-christ receives his power from Satan, and he is doing his bidding, and setting up Satan's Kingdom. The false prophet represents the priest of false religion, Satan's false religion. These two are working together, political government and religion coming together, to deceive the world into joining in with them, in his kingdom, coming under his false authority.

 Babylon represents the false religion, carnality, love of this world and riches, lust of the flesh, etc., which is spread by the whore of Babylon. The Whore of Babylon, represents the carnal church that has committed Spiritual Adultery against our Heavenly FATHER, and has turned away from our FATHER AND CREATOR to go after false religion and false gods.

 The whore sits upon seven hills, and spreads her cup of abominations thru the world. The seven hills is the seven continents of the world.   

And just as our FATHER AND CREATOR has a spiritual mark upon his chosen people, and HE seals his people, (those that love and obey HIM), with HIS NAME in their fore-heads, Satan has a counterfeit.

Our FATHER says in Proverbs that a man is a fool that would put his trust in another man for his salvation. So let us study for ourselves, leaning not to our own understanding, but ask for the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT, and for all truth of HIS WORD to be revealed to us, removing the veil and blindness from our eyes, and receiving our spiritual sight, studying to prove ourselves worthy stewards, and dividing the WORD Truthfully.

His ways are not our ways, and his thinking is much higher than ours. We need to study HIS WORD FROM A HEBREW perspective and learn about the Jewish roots of our faith. May YAHUVAH (GOD) bless you all in YAHSHUA'S NAME (JESUS)

 If we have taken hold of the cup of salvation offered thru CHRIST, then we are indeed Abraham's seed, and fellow and joint heirs with CHRIST, and we have received the spirit of adoption, and have become HIS chosen, elect, sons and daughters, of the covenant promises, and he has made both, Jew and Gentile one new man.

So we are adopted, and become one with the Saints, and heirs of the covenant promises, which belong to Israel, then we have become Israel. Study Romans, (especially Romans Ch. 2;28-29, Ch. 7-11, Ephesians, Ch. 2, Hebrews Ch. 8.

Billy Herring

Praise the Lord Billy,

It seems that we have another voice with the like minds of end-time vision.

Actually, if we were to discuss this one issue of the mark of the beast, we could get blue in the face trying to convince others that it is a spiritual reality in our minds. I get letters from people trying to convince me of bar codes or tattoos or computer chip implants or whatever new in technology as a physical mark. I have heard it described as a social security number or ID card. Anything part of the delusion to get them to put it away in the future instead of the reality of now. I remember an Adventist depiction with a 666 embedded on the foreheads. These same kind of people read the left behind books and actually believe that it will happen that way instead of recognizing it for the fantasy fiction that it really is. I hear they have a new left behind game to take these delusions to the kids.

What I want to hear about is the idea of the two houses of Israel being restored. It was just alluded to in one of Bobby's posts where the ten tribes will be reunited. I remember something the disciples asked about if it was time for Jesus to restore Israel or something but He put it into the future and I can't find where that was or what it said. The two house teaching of Judah and Ephraim seems very interesting.


Praise God!!!! Billy, he has revealed much to you.  Thank God for giving men such as you and Jay to the world.  Your explanation wrapped it all up for us.  I couldn't have explained it any better.

Most people think the seven hills means the city of Rome.  They are wrong. It means more.  Symbolically it means a revived New World Order, which covers the entire world. It will be like Rome of old, but much more oppressive and powerful. It is here now, starting its conquest to rule the world.

Satan is very smart.  Bush's is just one of his pawns.  He has many more in other countries.  He uses them against each other to get the results he is looking for,  Any man that has a lust for power either politically, religiously or financially, can be used by Satan. Saddam, Bush, and Bin Laden, are all such men as this,  They are enemies of each other, yet they all work for the same Boss.  Trust me, things are just getting started. What these three have started will be horrific to most, but a joy to us.  We are prepared and battle ready to conquer for christ. We will sing a new song before the throne of Christ but nobody else can understand or learn this new song.  Only us.  Rev.Ch.14-3  Not only this but we will have a grand arsenal of angels to help and warn us of this coming destruction of Babylon, and after.  I think this is starting to happen now.

The Holy Spirit tells me I have several angels that minister to me.  And my anointing was given for one reason to warn, warn, warn.  Then when it all goes down.  The anointing on us will be so powerful it will knock us down to our knees.  And this great anointing of Elijah and Moses, will reap in a great harvest for Christ, while the last seven plagues start slamming onto the earth.

My friends, the elect or remnant come from all twelve tribes of Israel.  This great tribulation ministry.  IS and will be the Great Latter Rain Movement.  This is the new song but only we can learn it.  So we must find others that sing the same song as we do.  This is a wild guess.  But your looking at around maybe 30,000 anointed ones here in the US, among the millions.  This will be a world wide ministry so I'm estimating that such movements will also occur in other countries  China, Europe, Africa, Russia and in the Middle east.  Remember brothers every head will bow to our King and Priest.  This is very strange but I ask the Holy Spirit if I'm a Christian, but he says I'm not,  He tells me I'm a Lampstand to help the Christians.  He won't even permit me to wear a cross.  Strange uh?  He has given me one symbol to use in my ministry. That is the Orthodox Greek Holy Seal,  IC XC NI KA which means Jesus Christ is victories in greek.

Your thoughts?


Hello Jay and Mary and Bobby,

Thank you all for your thoughts.  I'm kind of with you all here, especially Mary and the reality of the practical struggles we are engaged in.  I know we are weak, but my vision is that we need to move towards the truth of sharing in common.  The people Mary deals are on the front line and it's totally wrong that the weak, the sick and those with unusual personalities have to rely on state and secular organizations, not the body of Christ.  The problem is always the same - those who understand this the best are usually not in the best of positions themselves.  Perhaps that's because that's how we learn and how we really turn to Christ.  Love is so easy to say, but the real one who loves loves in deed and not word and is willing to tie their life in with mine, not just their minds or emotions.  This truth is going to be more apparent, because what Christians will begin to realize is that the scenario we are entering is that of survival for all Christians.  This is where the theories hit the mat with reality.  Having said that it is God who puts the pieces together.

I think we have to be a little careful about conspiracy theories, though.  Although many top people are masons and so forth they are human and carnal and therefore have no ability to cooperate outside the flesh and selfish desires.  In real life people are divided by all manner of different motives and scheming and the intelligence to control everyone requires a cooperation which is not naturally present.  Yet clearly there is something emerging.

I would suggest that in the New Testament the disciples believed Jesus was coming soon.  What John had was a longer term vision.  Like all the books in the New Testament it was primarily written not to us, but in the present tense to the audience of the time.  It had to have meaning to them.  The book of Hebrews, for instance was not primarily to us, but to the Jews of the time.  The book of Corinthians was to the Corinthians, the Ephesians to the people of Ephesus and so forth.  The reason we have it is the form that we do owes more to early church councils that to the intent of the writers.  Of course God is behind all things, but the early Christians were not book-focused, but were Spirit-led.  It can in fact be argued that the reason the NT was codified was because of the reduction in power of the Spirit's leading and the need to preserve Christians doctrines.

That does not mean that scripture is not inspired.  It is, but it's also progressive.  God is taking us further and we are being led and given understanding by the same Spirit which inspired all Bible writers.  I think this understanding is necessary if we are to approach a unity of faith, because Christianity has moved into word idolatry in many ways.  It is not the words but the message which counts.  This is why there is a distinction in the NT between the scriptures, which was the OT for them and the 'word of God' which was the message about Jesus preached.

For John in his time it may be that Great babylon was the Roman system, because that was the system which was aligned against them. That was the city set on seven hills.  Likewise if me or you had lived in the Middle Ages and were under the power of the Roman Catholic Church it would be natural for us to associate Great Babylon with the Catholic Church.  

We can see things today which people in Bible times could not see. For instance the Bible writers believed the earth was flat.  We read of the earth having four corners and ends.  Today we know it's round, we know it's limited.  That doesn't mean the authors weren't inspired, what it means is that the understanding God gave them was within their current world view.  It couldn't really be any different if we think about it sensibly.

The cardinal principles though are that of sin and holiness.  The ideas of flesh and spirit.  Of the body of Christ and the world. What we can see is where those are taking us today.  The spiritual principles we read in Revelation are as true today as they were in John's day.

There are two kingdoms in existence at the same time.  One is physical which is called the world, the other is spiritual and is described as the church, the temple, the body of Christ.  One is set up based upon the pull of the flesh and based upon money.  The other is led by God's Spirit and in its purest and more perfect form would be the exact reverse it seems to me.  This is surely why the first disciples shared all in common.  They were united in heart and believed they could change the world.

What the body of Christ really is if we think about it is a manifestation of him.  When the final living stone is added to the temple it is complete.  When the last person is added the 'numbers are made up' and the book of life is ready to be opened. This happens before the world receives its warnings (trumpets) and before it receives the judgments of God (vials).  In other words Christ manifests himself in his body before the marriage feast.  This is because Christ is coming for a bride who really wants him.  

The world meanwhile comes to its own kind of unity.  If we like its the manifestation of Satan.  This is the manifestation which seems to be appearing.  There is nothing in New Jerusalem which does not have a reverse copy in Great Babylon.  One has a river of life and the other has the river Euphrates which becomes a dead river.

What I see is that geopolitics will narrow the range of options open to the men who have the most power in our system.  World capitalism is peaking, because its based upon ideas of growth, which are impossible in a world of finite resources.  In particular we are heading towards peak oil.  Far from killing each other men are likely to respond by seeking to limit everyone on the globe.  

What civilisation really is is a set of rules which constrain the carnality of men to allow organization.  We have to have rules because it is impossible to work on the basis of trust until everyone repents and has new hearts.  The solution to every problem humanly speaking is more rules and what we have is a kind of secular legalism.  Some people manage to gain a high place within the system and believe they get their through their own abilities and some are low in the grid and are led to believe they are failures.

Once we accept the normality of the system we live in we miss the sin-basis by which it exists.   It is useful for those in charge to maintain the illusion that all can succeed within the system.  This is where we get psychology and the ideas of positive mental attitude.  Those who succeed believe they get there through their strength and abilities.  In truth God rules in the kingdoms of men and Satan does his bidding.  Not everyone can succeed in this system, because a system based upon competition produces winners (the carnally strong very often) and losers (those who are weaker).  For me or you to but cheap goods results in others having to work in often low-paid factory conditions.  That's how it works.  Centuries of this have shown that it does not raise all ships equally.

What happens is that the workings of sin form a pattern and if limited by external conditions will be funnelled down one route.  The world idea of how to react to the limitations of all sharing the same resources is carnal.  The system we have set up is based upon 'survival of the fittest' but the world will learn that the fittest men are spiritually led, not physically led.  An economic system based upon money allows powerful corporations to use money as leverage.  Far from being all equal and free, some people hold more power in the system by nature of position.  In fact most people lose out.  

The downside is that the more complex the system becomes the more vulnerable it gets too.  If resources get limited the human response is quotas, monitoring.  It's a route which would make everyone except the most powerful bean counters.  It's a route which would require less freedom, more controls.  How else can people be held in line if trust cannot be a taken??  Would they naturally sacrifice??  No.  A leader will inevitably work within the reality of human nature and so he has to move towards control, for democracy in its present state leads to confusion.

The problem we have is that we have got detached from nature and have built a model of economics which is unsustainable.  The real answers of repentance leading to creativity require sharing and self-sacrifice.  Since these are unrealistic the world will move towards trying to adapt the present system through controls.  It has to, because no one knows how to live outside the paradigm we have set up.

The system we have set up is based upon exploiting people, nature and resources.  Sure many governments have social programs, but when you look at it they have only been established through severe discontent.  If the weakest people get no help at all they threaten the system.  If you look at it closely these are the real reasons why there is so much crime.  People feel as if the system of rules works against them and competition sets us against each other and forces us to be autonomous.  What happens in response to lots of pressure is that concessions are made, but the most powerful people are able to keep on going.  If taxes are high they get the best accountants to limit them.  They can reloacte.  If an economy gets unstable they can buy gold.  They can buy useful contacts.  What we are moving towards is a system of control where everyone would be provided for, but everyone would be a slave of except the few most powerful.  Your ability to be fed would be dependent upon your willingness to not question anything past a certain point.

Be certain that Great Babylon will crash, though.  A system based upon rules eventually becomes too rigid to survive.  What's happening is that the world system is getting ready to try to control us in its last fight for breath.  It may not happen even.  Repentance and spirituality are not just luxuries and wishful thinking now.  Its the only way the world can move forward.  All its physical options are being limited.

Its an impossible job to control everyone.  Whilst theoretically its possible with computerized technology it has weaknesses.  It would require a few people to have the secular prophet George Orwell had of 'a boot stamping on a human face forever'.  It is the attempt to kill the human spirit.  And whilst we are called to die to ourselves the purpose is to widen our outlook not narrow it.

This is what our world is doing.  The mass of people live lives where they feel unfilled.  They are led to believe that that fulfillment can be achieved through the system.  They can be the person they were meant to be by gripping themselves by their bootstraps.  Yet for all that we are living more and more like the factory animals and cloned crops we harvest.  Isn't it somewhat strange that with more police we have more crime.  We have never had so much mental disorders and yet we have never had so many social workers.  We have more doctors and yet people are less healthy than they have ever been.

Those in control have the unenviable job of never allowing us to become too discontented.  And they must do it with ever less resources at hand as time goes on.  Or else they must be prepared to be ever more brutal.  When we hear of brutal dictators getting ever more cruel and paranoid be assured they are unlikely to be mad. What's happening is that they know deep down that they are not liked.  Like the people in North Korea who make spontaneous shows of love for the 'beloved leader'  They know that deep down people feel manipulated.  Its like the companies around us who try to get their workers to do ever more whilst paying them the minimum they have to.

In places like North Korea the control is obvious.  Its militarized. There is palpable fear.  In our societies its subtle.  We are presented with choices all of which seem to somehow limit our ability to be ourselves.  In a real free societies each of us would enhance each other.  In practice we try to strengthen a person so he can achieve a place in an economic grid.  We will then try to tie him down to living as a consumer in a world where everyone lives more and more alike.  His ability to be free depends upon how much money he can earn and generate.  Until he can do that he is tied into a system which is non-living, which will be ever more computerized.  The people with all the options can do all the things he cannot.  They can buy the land, pay for people to help them work within the rules etc, etc.

Real freedom would be helping each other by liberating their spirits, which is what the gospel seeks to do.  The idea is not to get people into another box of religious observance.  Is it any wonder that the churches are emptying when faced with that.  Its like adding insult to injury.

Real freedom would not be about trying to suppress all of creation for financial short term gain for a few.  It would be about thinking from the perspective of the aniaml of the plant as part not of a machine but of a living system.

I could go on, but nature teaches us that suppression does not work. Suppress a tree and you create a bonsai tree.  In fact the only way you can keep it alive is to keep trimming it so that it forever thinks it can grow.  If you remove all its hope that plant will die. Totally kill a man's spirit and that man will literally curl up and die.  Much of depression is the feeling that people have that they can make no progress.  They feel trapped beyond hope and that feeling goes on and on until that person sees a doorway.

The reverse is also true.  If a plant grows without any suppression whatsoever it becomes weak.  Grow a plant in warm inner conditions and then put it outside in the cold it dies.  It has developed no inner strength.  The irony is that the more Great Babylon tries to suppress people the greater creativity it will develop in those who turn to God.   It is Great Babylon which perfects the bride.  You see it in the natural world.  Left to itself nature is not tidy or neat. It becomes a thicket which is why we get the phrase 'conquer nature' What we have done is suppressed nature, which is very foolish.  It allows all the bugs and stuff to develop creativity whilst weakening our food sources.  It sets the stage for the coming plagues which to the world will seem natural.  A real working with nature would create paradise I am convinced.   I see heaven coming to earth and us finding spiritual laws beyond our comprehension.

In nature what we see is unbridled competition for resources.  We see animals and plants eating each other.  Each would naturally adapt to create inner strength, not outward productivity as forced agriculture tries to do.  To get perfection everything needs perfect suppression and release.  When you cut down a tree it sends up more shoots.  The more you prune it the more creativity it develops as Christ taught. Overdo it and you would progressively weaken the tree until it died. Any system which over controlled people would end up killing them. The reverse pressure would be as dangerous to the man in control as it would be for the men being controlled.  Cause and effect works two ways.  

Great Babylon cannot win.  Their best hope would lie in gaining the understanding of the most spiritual people.  They would almost need the alliance that occurred between Pharaoh and Joseph.  Far from hating them they need to be assured of our understanding.  It may be like Pharoh they get a vision of what is to come.  The more we portray them as the enemy the more likely they would be to embrace brutality against us.  

The reality is that this world needs total law against total Spirit to bring the whole world to repentance.  What we need to do is work together to be the bride that God intended to show the world another way is possible.    

We are moving towards an incredible scenario and what I write may seem like nonsense.  Far from us being cornered it is the world that is being cornered.  The gallows they have been building for us is the one that they are in danger of ending up being hung on themselves.  A totally carnal world is a world where everyone lives under hatred and fear.  We would not be wise to embrace that vision.  We have to understand the predicament of the people at the top as well as the predicament of those at the bottom.

God is making a way for us.

Much love,

Tim Woodall

Hello Tim and all,

        A couple of things stood out about what you wrote in the sense that they have been on my mind and heart too. I think you are saying that only through God can we obtain the things that we are longing and need to obtain, such as love, joy, peace, freedom...and that the world can only give us an approximation of it, and the devil, a counterfeit.

        Freedom has been on my mind a lot. If you have no liberty to walk about as a free man, then liberty will always seem to be in the ability to walk about that way, because you haven't got it. If on the other hand your liberty is given you from God on the inside, it doesn't matter where you are or what circumstances you find yourself in, you still have liberty. It is how the apostles praised the Lord in prison and under mortal threat.

       I see it the same way with peace. The world will have us believe that peace is obtained from the abundance of "things" and the absence of physical threat or strife. But in fact there is no peace to be had unless it is first established on the inside of us by God the Holy Spirit, through forgiveness and cleansing of sin, and the promise of salvation. In that place, it can't be stolen. And in that place, it is known even in the face of threat and danger and death.

        Seems to me the mark of the beast is the direct antithesis to the seal of God in our foreheads. The kingdom of God is within us and among us, from where none may take it. The one outstanding feature of the people of God is not their intelligence, their spiritual stature, or even their ability to discuss and interpret scripture or cast out demons or whatever: but their love. It is their love that spurts up on the inside like a fountain and causes us to act on another's behalf, to our own hurt if need be. It is not possible to be greedy or hateful or prideful or abusive or violent or even superior if we truly love.

        At the risk (yet again) of reducing things to simplicities, the mark of the beast is probably not complicated: it is hate. Under hate falls all greed and pride and lust and belligerence and exploitation and abuse and deceit and murder and all manner of foulness  that humans <<willingly>> embrace and do against each other. I say willingly because we all stumble into foulness from time to time and hate ourselves. That is not the same as taking the mark.

       I think the clue is in the willingness. Maybe we should be talking about that.

             Love your input.

                 Mary xx

Hi Billy,

A while back I mentioned to someone that I thought the seven mountains of revelation referred to continents and rebuffed as if I were mad. I never really thought at any time that I was crazy or confused with end time events or deluded in spirit. At no time was I ever dissuaded from ever having the same exact conclusions that you outline here yet wondered why I seem to be the only one out there with these revelations. I don't know what it is going to take for like minded Christians to come together but God knows and I believe that it is all wrapped up with the second coming, the idea that John the revelator will preach again and for Elijah to rise up for restoration and the Queen of the South to arise and condemn this generation. When these things can be discussed as succinctly among a small group as this, it gives me great comfort to think that it may be happening all over the world.

Babylon, the luke-warm church and Jezebel are, I believe, part of the same spirit and will suffer the same fate. It is going to be very important very soon that these revelations are to be taken to the world so that people can finally choose Jesus based upon truth instead of religious pseudo-christian delusion. Christians are still in the dark but the light is coming when the object of their delusion, namely the beast of revelation, is exposed, just like many rightist political administrations around the world are being exposed as corrupt. The greatest distinguishing mark of the beast is of course global capitalism and those that support it. Republicans and Democrats share alike in this country as well as the many regimes of the north. Now that Russia and China can be seen as notable heads, the arrows of truth can be aimed with precision.

Returning to the true God takes repentance. Before we can repent, sin must be exposed and our spirits quickened through sorrow.

All of us as good stewards of the truth must keep up the good work in bearing our souls without fear of retribution or censure. I get paranoid all the time. I remember when I put up my site for the benefit of Aristide and what was happening in Haiti that I started grinding my teeth. My jaws would ache, the vessels in my temple would swell, my head aches already from neck degeneration and all this stress keeps my pharmacist very happy. It's happening as I write. Sometimes I think that I cannot relax unless I am avoiding all of this completely and find other things to do but then I get that fire in my bones that makes me even more uneasy. I don't know if any one else here gets this uptight but I am sure glad to have friends I can unload onto sometimes.


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