It Takes Some Effort

September 7, 2002

The spirit within the faithful leads to love for our enemies, so we make an effort to pray for them. Some scoff at the spirit that does that and consider it weakness on our part, so the spirit within them leads to insults and condemnation. We have discussed the alienation that many have on the part of the church but it shouldn't be too hard for us to understand why.

The purpose here is to identify and heal division and it is only possible for those of us that are interested in preserving any unity in the bond of peace that we already have in the church. That may take some effort, especially from people who want to abandon the institutional church.

Israel had three annual feasts where attendance was mandatory, the Feasts of Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. These feasts were given to the Israelites in the natural as types of the Christian experience in the spiritual. Two of these feasts have been fulfilled in the Passover and Pentecost. The Passover points to the Christian experience of salvation with Jesus as our Passover and Pentecost involves the infilling and power of the Holy Spirit. The Feast of Tabernacles will come soon as we are finally gathered together.

Can Christians come through the Passover experience and skip Pentecost? Apparently so for now, but will they be part of this unity at the ingathering? The Holy Spirit has been described as the oil in our lamps. Conversely, can Christians who have been to Pentecost skip Passover? Not a chance. It's hard to imagine but many teach that you can't have the Holy Spirit at all without speaking in tongues first, thereby dividing us even more. Pentecost is the feast of weeks where the Israelites brought the firstfruits of the harvest. At the resurrection, Jesus is the firstfruits of them that slept (1 Corinthians 15:20) and the power of the resurrection was given to us at the outset of the church on Pentecost.

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:1.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Romans 6:5.

If the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost, then what are we to present as firstfruits of our own resurrection? Paul tells us that we are to take up the cross and present our bodies a living sacrifice as a service toward holiness. We must turn from our sins and get holy if we are truly in the spirit; this is where we are led. That takes effort. We are already holy, you say? True, but there is a difference between the positional sanctification that comes through being justified and the sanctification that brings us into practical holiness through obedient service. We may not see perfection this side of heaven when our complete sanctification comes through glorification but the message is clear that an effort has to be made. Jesus is coming to join with a Bride that is intimate with Him, not one that whores after other lovers, touches the unclean thing, mistreats the servants and defiles the marriage bed. Our sins are hid in Christ but we are not to continue in sin and that takes some effort on our parts. We may stand in Christ but we are also to walk in the spirit - not just passive hearers of the word but active doers. Sanctification is given to all at our conversion but it is also a process, we are to sanctify ourselves. We are to separate ourselves, not from God's people but from the unholy. Remember that the judgment seat of Christ will judge people of faith by what we have done, James taught that faith without works is dead being by itself. That takes some effort. This is what the Bible teaches. We all need to repent.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death. Philippians 3:10.

This is what the fellowship of his sufferings and the attack on Pentecost is. If they have not been there, they cannot understand or be able to teach an experience that they have never experienced so they make up doctrines to deny Pentecost completely and attack those that disagree as being in error. Repentance is a one-time occurrence at salvation for many and is not needed from then on but the faithful need to die daily. Since an unrepentant whitewashed church has only a name that lives, moves toward revival and holiness are spoken against. Deliverance ministries are spurned because they have no need for it; it would go against their perversion of grace as if we are not spiritually capable of living responsibly, the worst of them will tell you that the grace to live holy does not even continue subsequent to our conversion.

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work. II Corinthians 9:8.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16.

This is how I have evaluated the discussions for this edition. Fellowship seems to be the watchword this time, the kind of fellowship that arises out of love from the power of His resurrection.

I need to go one step further and speak of surrender, the kind of surrender that gives of self rather than giving up on others. We do not have the power to live right, to repent, to live holy, to come together or to do anything without surrender. If God is not working in us, all our efforts are in vain. We must surrender to the Lord completely to be able to love those that attack us. When Israel was holiness unto the lord and His firstfruits, their enemies were devoured (Jeremiah 2:3). What is intended for evil against us, works out for good to those that love Him; those who love Him, loves others. Surrendering is to admit to God that we are powerless without Him doing it through us. We act because He gives us the power to act. That is Pentecost.


All I know is when I was a visitor at a hospital, children's ward and I see small children laying in comas and I hear a gentle sweet voice inside of me telling me to lay hands on the sick, believe with all my heart, have no doubts, trust on the very word of God, speak it out, in the name of Jesus.....and these very same children awake from comas (some 6 months long) and they are alive today......I know the Holy Spirit stepped in and did a mighty work...a misfit...Praise God I the way isn't that whom my Jesus hung out with? Hummmmmm



That really means a lot to hear you say that Colleen.

I am not in the situation yet where I lay hands on people and pray for them but I know that the power is there because I feel it coming through when I pray silently for them. I say "yet" because I do feel that the Lord will put me in the place where I can glorify Him to my fullest some day. Soon I hope.

Thanks for sharing that.


Thought: didn't Jesus become wounded in the house of his friends? And doesn't it say that our enemies will be those of our our own household? [h-m-m-m may have referred to the "household of FAITH."

Hello ole friend,
I rejoice with you over what the Holy Spirit is doing!!
Caution: Even though we are called to suffer with Jesus, we must not brag about it. We are to rejoice in it and pray for those who persecute us (which I am sure you do.) Also, Satan, though limited in miraculous powers, can indeed, imitate the work of the Holy Spirit (heal the sick, etc.) to the degree God allows. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, advised His readers to "try the spirits whether they are of God." We try (test) the spirits by finding out what they think of the Lord Jesus Christ. -- I John 4:1-4 If they are wrong on Him, they are wrong. Blessing and love in Christ.

Seeing that the last message (yours Jay) underscored the importance of us who are of like mind in Christ to be connected and through that encouraged when others attempt to discourage and dismiss us, why not talk about the fellowship of believers. I alway take courage in the fact that almost everything I have read on this list has been uplifting and deep in the life of Christ. I have been on other lists and the people were not my kind of christians. Simple truths seemed to cause irritation and conflict. I thought it might be me but then I realize that there are a people who I can relate to. They have also been outcasts, criticized, condemned and dismissed for the life they have lived and experienced in Christ.

Is that because we are prophets??? (born to push people's buttons)

Blessings, Paul Weigel

Hi everyone!

Even though I have been visiting the latter rain website for quite a while, (I often use it as a source of reference) I have never replied to any emails or anything. I love the Lord. I know that He is leading me into greater things. I know that He has some plan for my life, because He has brought me through some awesome trials and tribulations even from childhood. At 8 years of age, I experienced a bed of affliction like the paralytics in the scriptures. I mysteriously was stricken with what doctors are still not sure about but try to label as Guillan Barre. I was paralyzed for about 9 months, fed by a tube and attached to a respirator. One day my grandmother came to visit and left a new testament under my pillow. She told me that I had to pray to Jesus. When she left, I was thinking about what she said. I remember thinking, "Jesus, please help me". Immediately, I felt the need to stretch! I hadn't felt anything in months. As I stretched, a nurse was passing and saw the miracle unfold. After that, I was moved from the hospital to a children's home. That's when the unbelievable to most, happened. I was lying in the bed looking out of the window at the children playing on the playground. I looked up and prayed: "Jesus, if you will let me run and play like the other boys and girls, I will be a good girl for you." When I turned to look back out of the window, the scenery had changed. My view of outdoors was blocked by the brightest white light that I have ever seen in my life. Then I saw a person dressed in the whitest free flowing gown. I felt warm all over.

Even though I can't recall seeing a face, I remember hearing the voice say get up and walk. Glory to the highest! I remember thinking, "how? I haven't in so long." I heard the voice say "just make one step". The next thing I know, I was sitting on the side of the bed, then standing like a newly hatched duckling, then making it across the room to where this person was. As soon as I got there, the person that I now believe to be an angel had disappeared. My mother and father arrived a few minutes afterwards because my grandmother had a vision as she was praying that I ascended from the bed and my regular clothes became a white robe. She called and told them to go see about me and get there in a hurry. She thought I had died. Just as Christ healed the lame and raised them up, His healing power did the same for me. I am now 32 and I remember it like it happened yesterday. Every time I think about it, rivers of joy and gratitude rush through my body.

I know that He is God and beside him no other can compare! He often allows the Holy Spirit to flow through me to deliver messages to others. I have been a minister for 5 years. My dilemma is that I am married to a man who is slothful when it comes to the things of God. He is a confessing believer who is caught up in traditional religion. Right now he is really battling some inner man issues. I see his resentment towards me at times when we leave a service where I have ministered through the Holy Spirit. I have tried to talk with him, but he says this is not the case. Yet, he will remind me that he always thought that I was to be his helpmate. He says that I am getting ahead of him. I assure him that I'm trying hard to be his helpmate, yet I have to do the things of God. I want him to experience Christ Jesus for himself in an intimate relationship. We have a ministry together. I know it because I have seen the vision. Yet any suggestions that I make about praying together and studying together go completely ignored. I once would have bible study with the children every night which I invited him to participate in and he would not. So asked him to head it up and he would make excuses or find other things to do. I have been walking on eggshells for so long trying not to offend him until I now feel like I am getting slack. I don't study as I used to. When I do study, revelation and understanding don't come as they once did. I really need your prayers. We have had many obstacles in our marriage, yet I keep holding on and praying because want to honor the vows that I made to him before God. I also want to see the Holy Spirit saturate both of us fully and completely. I say that, because I feel that I have not yielded completely to the Holy Spirit. Had I done so, these issues would not be issues! I want to see that ministry unfold and be all that God would have it to be. We have been married 12 years. I welcome any suggestions and all of your prayers!


The Power of His Resurrection

Timothy Glendenning

Phil. 3:10.---'That I may know him and the power of his resurrection.'

It was the risen Christ who appeared to St. Paul; the ascended, glorified Lord. It was the risen Christ he desired to know. Other apostles had seen the wonders of His earthly life, but this was history to the Apostle, as it is to us. There is no word of regret in all his Epistles that he had not walked with Him in Galilee, or listened to His inspiring words, or stood beneath His cross. Christ as He is---this is his search and his study: 'that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection.' Christ in himself, and himself in Christ: this is more than Christ at his side, or Christ crucified before his eyes. Not a memory, but a life, is what he craves for: not a pattern, but a power. To have the risen Christ in him, to know that He is there, to know what He is doing there---that is to 'know him, and the power of his resurrection.' It was not the historical fact of the physical resurrection of Christ that he desired to be convinced of, although of that fact he had no shadow of doubt. To accept a historical fact when it is proved to you is not faith, nor is it knowledge, in the religious sense of those words. Faith is concerned with the unseen: and to have seen a person is not the same as to know him.

Probably no human testimony would have convinced Saul of Tarsus that Jesus of Nazareth had truly risen from the dead. And, if he had been convinced of the fact, we cannot say that it would have changed his attitude of hostility. But, to use his own words, 'it pleased God to reveal his son in me.' It was no mere external appearance: the risen, living Christ had laid hold of him and possessed him; His touch had reached into his inmost being.

From that moment all the testimony that others offered fitted in with what he knew of Christ. He delighted to collect it and weld it into an impregnable argument, to meet the questionings of the Greeks of Corinth who were puzzling over the possibility of any resurrection and the nature of resurrection bodies. But his faith rested not on testimonies. He was permeated with the living Presence of Christ: he had taken Him as the Master of his life---'Christ Jesus my Lord': he carried the witness in himself. Yet he seems to speak as if it were still his goal, not his attainment---to 'know him, and the power of his resurrection'---'if by any means I may attain.'

The power of the resurrection is no far-off promise, but a present gift. The anticipations of the future are in the New Testament quite subordinate to the assurance that eternal life is, after all, not primarily a hope to be cherished for the future, but an acquisition to be attained in this present life. The time to enter eternity is now. Immortality is not a matter of duration, but a matter of vitality; not a physical transition, but a moral awakening; not a matter of quantity, but a matter of quality. 'This is life eternal.' says the gospel, 'that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' 'To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life'; 'We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren'; such are the promises and warnings which mark the New Testament teaching. Christ speaks of Eternal Life not in the present or future, but "the mystic tense." People can live it here and now. 'If you would enter into life,' said Christ to that youth to whom His heart went forth, 'keep the commandments.'

As at the Renaissance men's minds were entirely changed by the astronomical discovery that the earth is not alone, with the heavens revolving far above it, but that it is in heaven, a part of it, so in the Testament men found that Time is an illusion and that this that we know now is a part of Eternity. And grasping that, they learned to live their life in a new way, the heavenly, the eternal way.

We have a wholly different way of approach to the problem of immortality from that which engages speculative minds in their guesses about the future. It is a way which starts, not from anticipation, but from experience; not with Christ risen in one's creed, but with Christ risen in one's life; not with immortality as a future gift, but with immortality as a present acquisition. In short, the sublime but dimly recognized teaching of the New Testament is this, that the spiritual order of this world is set over against the sensuous order as a literal contrast between life and death. One may fancy himself, that is to say, alive and well, in the fullness of physical health, and yet, according to this teaching, he may be sick, even unto death. 'This my son,' said the father of the prodigal, not in a figure of speech but in literal truth, 'was dead and is alive again.' Eternal life, in other words, is not a matter of creed but a matter of character.

It must be admitted that something of a wrench of mind is necessary to turn from the thought of immortality as a cosmic problem to the thought of immortality as a way of life. It is exhilarating to look back across the centuries and sing, 'Christ is risen'; but it strikes a much less jubilant note to ask, 'Am I risen with Christ? have I attained unto the resurrection?' Yet this is in fact the question of importance, and this personal and momentous transition is not so strange or remote as it at first may appear.

From the discovery of the meaning of life there follow two consequences of the most momentous and immediate importance.

The recognition of eternal life as now and here opens the straight road to assurance of its continuity and perpetuation. One rational conviction sustains and directs our faith. It is the assurance that what is excellent, as God lives, is permanent; that a life which is not of the body is not involved in the fate of the body; that those who have attained to the resurrection here are the best witnesses of its continuity hereafter. In other words, the most convincing reason for one's faith in immortality comes of acquaintance with lives which do not seem likely to die. 'Death,' it was said of Jesus, 'had no dominion over him.' The life of the Master had become in the mind of His followers so completely dissociated from the changes of the body that its continuance was the result of its character. As His word in the flesh had been with power, so, when that word was silenced, they lived by the power of His resurrection. Eternal life as a problem had been answered for them by eternal life as a fact. And that, ever since, has been the convincing demonstration of the survival of the human soul. Through some experience of affection or reminiscence one has had intimacy with lives which had in them the quality of timelessness.

If the best evidence of eternal life is knowledge of it as a fact; if, as we know what love is by loving, and what sight is by seeing, so we know what immortality is by seeing and loving a soul that is immortal---then there follows a second consequence which is not less reassuring. For this kind of life, resurrection, not yet wholly attained but already laid hold of, is what makes eternal life in the future not only real but worth the having. When one contemplates a future life which is a sheer duration, it is by no means certain whether it should be anticipated with hope or with fear. Immortality as duration, with all its perplexing problems of sin and its penalty, of punishment and retribution, has not much to recommend it to tired mortals; and there is nothing in it of the New Testament note of vitality and power. But immortality as opportunity, eternal life to be first attained and then maintained---that transfers one to a wholly different view.

To believe that the purposes and desires which have so often been unfulfilled may have their chance of realization; to believe that the blunders and follies which cloud one's memory may be somehow, even if it be with suffering, redeemed; to believe that the shining witnesses of the spirit which have sustained one's courage in this life are gathered into the timeless service of a loving God---this is to reach at last the New Testament way of approach to the mystery of the future. Not all at once is this assurance to be attained among the perplexities and discords of ordinary life. The things which are seen seem visionary. But by the teachings of experience, by companionship with lives unspotted from the world, by the dedication of our own life to the discipleship of Christ our Lord---the proportions of truth grow clearer, and realities emerge from illusion, and the sense of timelessness supplants the sense of temporariness.

In Christ, timothy.

Dear Timothy,
Your article about the "Power of the Resurrection" caught the attention of my eye and my spirit immediately upon your sending it, but it took some time to center on the response. This subject is one about which I really wished to respond and hear responses from others and still hoping for said responses.

After reading Jay's article on "Misfits" (see No. 1 below for excerpt) and the testimonies submitted, I noticed a beautiful blending, a unique harmony of "rejection and pain" being overshadowed by the "Love and Acceptance" shown to each of us through the power of the Holy Spirit that flows, shedding love abroad in our hearts, making us more desirous of the Resurrected Christ. How far we have come, and yet we have not reached our goal, our "attaining" of "Knowing Him." How much more we need to be breathing and walking in a more "Intimate Knowing" of "The Power of His Resurrection." (See No. 2 below).

Never once have I considered it loss that I have not walked with Jesus on the Shores of Galilee, as there is so much joy walking with Him, as "He Is" at present, in "All His Glory," although, I feel I have only touched the tip of His Glory.

I have witnessed "The Power of His Resurrection" in the Scriptures and in my personal life; and I have observed it operating through the lives of certain Christians, in a measure, the flesh being so weak, as the Spirit of the Lord used our vessels. Unfortunately, many Christians have erroneously taught that this power can be attained through our own efforts by practicing certain steps of faith, memorizing certain Scriptures, building up our own spirit, etc. as though we could control "This Resurrection Power" through works of the flesh and logic. In other words, many have been taught and believe that building up our spirits in power and strength is the same as "Knowing the Power of His Resurrection - Knowing our Resurrected Lord." There is a difference in being strong in our own spirit, versus recognizing our lack and wanton nature (our becoming nothing), while letting the strength of the "Power of His Resurrection Spirit" flow through us. Our job, I believe, is to be strong in our own spirit, but we must also align ourselves to receive of this "Resurrection Power." Like Paul, who recognized that he was nothing and knew nothing "except Jesus Christ Crucified," we must press that we might attain to "Knowing Him As He Is," in His Glory.

Over the past (almost) thirty years, I have listened to many sermons and teachings on "power," mostly stemming from the Book of Acts, and said power operating through the lives of the Disciples, but a few, God forbid, (very sarcastically speaking) taught of this power as being manifested through believers who never had a day of sickness, while driving Cadillacs and Harleys, as though that was the ultimate attaining of this "power" in Jesus' finished work. I have read many books about saints in our past, who witnessed to the "power of the Holy Spirit" flowing through them, to change them, defeat the enemy, giving them direction in life's dilemma, and in the giving of revelation.

The distinction that I would like to make is that: I have experienced the power of my own spirit, being strong and vibrant, and I have also experienced the "Power of His Resurrection," flowing through me by the moving of the Holy Spirit, in differing administrations and seemingly different measures. The Holy Spirit has moved through me with His Gifts, the Fruit of the Spirit, discernment of good and evil, etc. with the Power of the Spirit of God in charge, but what I am speaking of and desiring, AT THIS TIME in my life , is "Walking in His Glory" with His Radiance Shining through me in "The Power of His Resurrection," in a much greater measure, which I believe is the Will of the Father. On the Mount of Transfiguration, those Disciples did not have to build up their spirits; the "Resurrection Radiance of Power" just emanated from them, shining forth His Glory, by being in His Presence, being "One" with Jesus in His Glory, a glimpse of Him in "His Resurrection Power." And may I make a comment about the second major transformation in Mary Magdalene's life, that being when she met the "Resurrection and the Life," her Lord without flesh.

Now, may I add, I feel far from having attained to this place of "walking and breathing" in the "Knowing" of our Resurrected Lord. Please don't misunderstand me, I have NO desire for power for the sake of power, but I DO HAVE A STRONG DESIRE for this "Resurrection Power" to flow through me as a vessel beholding His Glory to defeat the works of the enemy, and walk spotless before Him, being holy as He is Holy. This is the race I run, pressing, as Paul, toward the mark of high calling, with this goal of "KNOWING HIM AND THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION." (See No. 3 below).

Yes, like you stated, Timothy, I believe this is a present-day promise, an "attainable" goal, a place of "walking and breathing" in this "Knowing Him," becoming "One," being conformed into "His Image," a resultant transformation from spending time in His Presence, as the Refining Fire removes ALL that is not pleasing to the Father. It is truly an Eternal "Place of Belonging." We do have the earnest of this promise in the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and His Power in us once we are born again, and baptized in His Spirit, but the "goal" is to be "FILLED and OVERFLOWING" with our Resurrected Lord and "The Power of His Resurrection," at every level of our walk, from glory to glory ~ not a one-time event.(See No. 4 below).

I strongly believe that it is in this "Knowing" of "The Power of His Resurrection" a "Knowing of This Resurrected Lord" that will carry the Body through the coming trials and tribulations, truly making us "One with Him." Walking in "His Glory" will be our refuge and our strength, a place of "Holiness," a place of "Overcoming, " a place where those who contend with us, will truly be contending with the Lord, not our flesh, nor our logical trained mind's type-of-knowing how to war.

I know what I wished to say from my heart, but I am not sure that is what I wrote. Ha. May each of you read this with the zeal and the fire with which it was written, and burns within me. Karen desires to stir the waters in my life and in the lives of others, while longing for the Will of the Father to be done on Earth as it is Heaven, in His Body, the Remnant, even in the present tense. May the Author and Finisher of our Faith, our Resurrected Lord, reflect His Glory through us, as we give Him Honor and Praise For Ever and Ever. Amen.


No. 1: Jay stated, "We are the rejects and misfits of this world's system. We get hurt, picked on and cursed at, we are called heretics, pretenders, idiots, tools of satan, false prophets and all kinds of absurdities. We are talked down to, disrespected, reviled, passed over and persecuted for righteousness' sake. The more like Jesus we become, the more that nominal Christians and the heathen scourge us. We are discriminated against, oppressed, walked on, condemned and cursed to the pits of hell. Our covering is but Jesus alone, we want to submit to each other in the Lord while they want us to submit to their false authority. But hear this, people; we have a home in heaven that was prepared for us before the foundation of the world. Many in the present religious system will never see it, called but not chosen. We misfits have the power to bring down these strongholds. How many of you already see it in the spirit? We will endure to the end. We are part of a kingdom that will never pass away; we shall shine on as the sun, no more tears, no more pain, no more sorrow. Can you shout glory?

No. 2: Timothy stated, " . . . There is no word of regret in all his Epistles that he had not walked with Him in Galilee, or listened to His inspiring words, or stood beneath His cross. Christ as He is---this is his search and his study: 'that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection.' Christ in himself, and himself in Christ: this is more than Christ at his side, or Christ crucified before his eyes. Not a memory, but a life, is what he craves for: not a pattern, but a power. To have he risen Christ in him, to know that He is there, to know what He is doing there---that is to 'know him, and the power of his resurrection.'"

No. 3: Timothy stated, " . . . He was permeated with the living Presence of Christ: he had taken Him as the Master of his life---'Christ Jesus my Lord': he carried the witness in himself. Yet he seems to speak as if it were still his goal, not his attainment---to 'know him, and the power of his resurrection'---'if by any means I may attain.'"

No. 4: Timothy states, " . . . The power of the resurrection is no far-off promise, but a present gift. The anticipations of the future are in the New Testament quite subordinate to the assurance that eternal life is, after all, not primarily a hope to be cherished for the future, but an acquisition to be attained in this present life . . . The life of the Master had become in the mind of His followers so completely dissociated from the changes of the body that its continuance was the result of its character. As His word in the flesh had been with power, so, when that word was silenced, they lived by the power of His resurrection. Eternal life as a problem had been answered for them by eternal life as a fact. And that, ever since, has been the convincing demonstration of the survival of the human soul. Through some experience of affection or reminiscence one has had intimacy with lives which had in them the quality of timelessness."

Phi 3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ Phi 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; Phi 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; Phi 3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus.

_ It is with great fear and trembling I enter my response to this thread of discussion... I pray that the words I type here will be received seasoned with His grace and mercy ... this medium does not allow for tone of voice (I'm not pounding my pulpit!), facial expressions (nor am I frowning at us!) etc... and so as you read please know that in my spirit I type these words in the utmost humility - trusting Father to bring the spirit of what I write to the fore-front.

-Also please send to me or direct me to the original post on this subject... I'm writing from my response to the topic and not as a reply to the original post...

- I have heard many sermons in my 27 year walk with the Lord regarding this passage of scripture in Philipians that we are to seek to "know Him and the Power of His Resurrection..." and in all those years I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone finish that verse (3:10).

I believe the key to "knowing Him and the Power of His resurection is found in the remainder of the verse ...."and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death..."

So that the whole thought together is this: "Phi 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; (notice the semi-colon here..) Phi 3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Brothers and sisters in Christ I pose this question... Can we ever fully "know Him and the Power of His resurrection" before we are also found willing to accept "the fellowship of His suffering, being conformed to His death..."?

We who think ourselves spiritual or mature, are also sometimes found lacking in our willingness to "suffer for Christ or to be conformed to His death."

Is it really "persecution" to be found un-acceptable to the religious, legalistic nature of those around us? And if it is should we not "suffer" this and "not be surprised by the firey trials we endure for His Name's sake..?"

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, don't be astonished at the fiery trial which has come upon you, to test you, as though a strange thing happened to you. 1Pe 4:13 But because you are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also you may rejoice with exceeding joy. 1Pe 4:14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, blessed are you; because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. On their part he is blasphemed, but on your part he is glorified.

There is no greater joy in my life than to press into Father's presence in prayer and yet I am/have been abused by our leadership for this simple thing - intercessory prayer before services!

Should we who claim to have the "answer" (that of making the Gospel simple again, or pressing in to the presence of Jesus, putting legs to our faith...) allow ourselves to be offended by those before whom we claim to be the example?

If we are called by the mercy and grace of God to show forth this deeper, more purposeful walk in Christ - should we be surprised or offended when those who are carnal or natural abuse us? or should we rather rejoice that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life and that we are found worthy to share in the "fellowship of His suffering...?"

The Word is clear, Paul was determined to press in.. to know the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His suffering and to be found conformed to His death.

Are we not called to die to self? To consider ourselves dead to sin but alive to Christ Jesus? And not just our sin but to die to the sins and offenses of others which are against us?

Rom 6:11 Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Gal 2:19 For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

The trials of this life are nothing to be compared with the Glory of all that Father has for us; now and in the future... Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us.

We who know the truth... That we are NOW the children of God, not just "someday" in some "sweet by & by" but now.... Should we not rejoice that we are indeed the children of the Most High God and that if found faithful... we are sure to suffer a similar fate as our Lord and Savior suffered...?

"Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. 1Jo 3:1 Behold, how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! For this cause the world doesn't know us, because it didn't know him. 1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God,...."

I don't mean that we should go looking for trouble, though indeed sometimes I think we're not in enough trouble yet...(smiling here..) But we must take the context of the Philipians passage to heart...

If we desire to fully "know Him and the Power of His resurrection.." then we must expect and even cherish the fact that we will and are sharing in the fellowship of His suffering...being conformed to His death..."

And what is it to be "conformed to His death" if not to die to our own flesh and to die to the offense of those who (r)wail against us?

The bottom line is this... We will know Him... and the Power of His resurrection.. as we share in the fellowship of His suffering and as we die daily to our own fleshly, sinful and selfish desires...

Brothers and sisters.... We are to count "all" things as loss for the excellency of knowing Him..and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His suffering...being conformed to His death...

Let us lay down not only our crowns at the feet of Jesus.. but let us lay down finally every offense and every sin against us.. Let us be found sharing joyfully in the fellowship of His suffering... and let us be found dying daily to self that He might live in us and through us!

Bless you all eric

P.S. Another can-o-worms to toss in here is this passage of scripture: Col 1:24-29 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the assembly...

Read the entire context of that passage and comment if you desire... Do we also have a part to play in "filling up what is lacking of the afflictions of Christ...?"

What do you know about [hatemonger site] -- found them looking for one of my favorite lady authors and they mention her and others as being in error -- I don't see why they need to cut down those they don't believe in. My attitude is to use the time to pray for them and go on -- we have too many divisions now


Hi Lois,

The ([hatemonger site] is a hatemonger group in the guise of Christian apologetics. If anyone does not fit into their narrow conservative dogmatics, they are called heretics or cults. They especially hate pentecostals. No more said.


This line from the end of post#248 from Lois caught my spirit and turned into prayer and supplication before the Lord...

"I don't see why they need to cut down those they don't believe in My attitude is to use the time to pray for them and go on -- we have too many divisions now LOIS"

Amen Dear Sister too many divisions indeed! I won't type long here because your injunction to prayer is the valid response to those who "must correct us at any cost"

I would point us all to the scriptures in Ephesians 4:1-7 (*v.3*) I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, urge you to live in a way that is worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, along with patience, accepting one another in love. Do your best to maintain the unity of the Spirit by means of the bond of peace.

The truth about unity is that its not something we must strive for or strain to achieve because in the very nature of the Spirit of God who has come to dwell in us this unity exists already! The verses above tell us to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." The unity is already there between those who call upon the name of the Lord in Spirit and in Truth... the command of this passage is to maintain that unity... in the the bond of peace...

There can be Christian unity across denominational lines as we come to a willingness to drop off the imperative of "man-made" doctrines and cling to and defend the simple truth of the Gospel of Jesus... To stand together with the singular heart cry that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the only Begotten Son of God and has been declared by the power of His resurrection to be both Savior and Lord... Upon this tenant of faith most can stand firm arm in arm against all the wiles of satan's attack on the church.

Unity collapses when uniformity is demanded... uniformity of doctrinal orthodoxy, worship format, liturgy or traditions of celebration and local traditions... When these become the focus of our orthodoxy rather than the simple declaration that Jesus is Lord and there is no other name under heaven or in the earth that men may call upon to be saved...when this simple message is lost then we find it impossible to "maintain unity" in the bond of peace.

The beginning of nearly every denomination we know of was begun from a sincere desire and compulsion to "declare a lost or mistaken Truth" It is when that compulsion for correction becomes the focus that the simplicity of the Gospel is lost and the freight-train of yet another denomination is begun in earnest.

Check this out for yourself... Surely in the great city of Corinth, a great cross roads in the ancient trade route... surely here we must agree that there were many "house churches" that arose over the years... and yet when Paul addressed the church at Corinth he did not address the many small fellowships that operated house to house - but rather he opens his letter... To the Church of God in Corinth... Paul assumes unity in the midst of diversity... a unity based on the simple and singular declaration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Can there be unity in the Body of Christ? Yes it is a unity which already exists and which we cannot add to or take away from with the most strenuous measure of striving or working in our own strength... Unity is to be assumed as part of the very nature of Spirit of God within us... we are commanded to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace..." This bond of peace is found as we obey the command to "love one another, bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ.." How can unity be lacking or peace be dissolved if we are found loving one another, thinking more highly of one another than we think of our selves...?

Brothers and sisters - let us press on to true unity indeed... the unity wrought by a singleness of heart and mind to honor God above all else and to serve one another in love...


Thank you Eric because God has called me to denomination that don't believe some of my doctrine I have been more and more impressed that He is the One to look to not people, etc. I will always believe as i do and seek out those who believe with me (hence this group) but I know that God is not pleased when we waste valuable time bickering with our fellow believers -- the anniversary of 9/11 is coming up and that seemed to bring us together for awhile -- perhaps on that day anyhow we can come together

Blessings LOIS

Hi Eric and Lois and all,

I just have to jump in on this one. There are a couple of people on this list that were on another list where this very idea of unity was discussed and may remember what happened. Not all of us agreed that we don't need to strive to maintain the unity because we are already one. This difference of opinion caused a few people to be very resentful in that group as if whatever they said must be truth so whoever disagrees must be liars. I am sure you have seen prophets like that. Anyway, I left because they could not discuss in love like we can here and so did others. I don't think that problem exists here but it illustrates the point that unity isn't always so easy to maintain and if you think differently, that unity just might be destroyed just to show you how fragile it is. We obviously can't say that about everyone in all circumstances but not everyone is part of that unity.

On this list, we may just be real unified and might not need to try very hard to keep that unity but we are more ideal than most, we are coming to a point where love is the driving force and not our pet doctrines or special agendas. The closer that we come to the Lord's return, the closer that perfect positional unity will be but we haven't arrived yet. There is a maturity in this group that should be obvious to all here but being one in the spirit is an ideal that the church has never been able to live up to in a practical sense. I believe we must strive to keep that unity and what's more, if you go on to what follows in the fourth chapter of Ephesians it has these verses:

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

We must not only do our best to maintain the unity, we are to keep on with the five fold until we "all come into" the unity.

What Lois was objecting to was a site that we have dealt with before on the latter rain list with all the hateful judgments they make about people outside of their own bias. Is hatred, condemnation and false judgment part of the unity that we must all come into? They honestly think we are of the devil. Sometimes I am too sensitive at the words of others and this guy over there cut me to the bone. I distinctly heard the voice of the Lord in that situation say "I do not know him." That was comforting indeed. While God spoke to me personally with encouragement, those words revealed that the man had never accepted the love of Jesus, so in effect, he cannot believe rightly or worship in spirit and truth and not even part of the unity that Jesus is gathering us together for anyway. What do I do in that kind of situation? Ignore him and press on to where the Lord is drawing His people unto Himself in unity. Lois is absolutely right in that we are not to waste our time with these people. And of course, you are absolutely right that there are too many divisions but in my mind it means that it should be something we work at. I don't mean in fleshly works either, but call upon the Lord to guide and direct us by His Spirit to do His work in bringing people of like minds together. We have the mind of Christ, we need to be careful because there are ravenous wolves out there just waiting to steel the sheep and bring them into their own fold.

There are a few verses in the New Testament that teach that we do not need to strive and if we are led by the Holy Spirit, then it is the Lord that we can look to for the striving. We do know however, that we should strive to enter into the narrow gate and if the word strive isn't used in reference to unity then at least there should be some unanimous agreement that there should be some effort involved in doing our best to maintain that unity.

In love,


Hi Jay, and all,

I remember a couple of times like the one you describe Jay and I am glad to have your input here on the subject of unity. I agree we need to be active in maintaining unity. There is "knowing" we belong to each other, but that doesn't work for long unless we are "doing" something about it. There are couples who are one flesh because the Word says so, and may be they even love each other in a kind of way, but never communicate it or work at it or demonstrate it, so that actually they live separate lives apart from each other under the same roof. I know that is not pleasing to God. Same for the church. Unity is a matter of doing as well as knowing, or our words become very hollow and if we are not careful our church experience becomes very like the sham we have been critical of in other places in the past. Need to pray here at this point.

Father thank you for Lightship, for bringing us together here at this exciting point in church history. Thank you for each person here, and for their contribution silent or spoken to the family environment which we are beginning to enjoy. Lord we know you have made us one in you, but that the perfect unity you desire to see has not come about yet in what we do and what we say and how we walk. May the unity that we know you have suffered for become our desire in all that we bring here, become the undergirding principle, the high ideal, and the future aim. Lord thank you for our uniqueness, but thank you that when we all work together we have a corporate beauty, a corporate function, and all the needs are met.

We cast out from here any evil spirit or influence that would seek to destroy our unity, disrupt our peace, divert our gaze from Jesus, or trouble us in any way to rob us of the promise of being one in you, in Jesus' Mighty Name.

Lord we want to please you, we love you so much, we worship you, you are beautiful, Lord you are all we need, fill our minds, our hearts, our bodies, our souls, and our spirits with worship and with your love, and let this place be one that gives you increasing joy, in the Mighty Name of Jesus! AMEN

God bless you sweet family.
Love from Mary

Thanks Mary,

It is always a concern of mine that when I bring something up that it will offend and alienate others to the point that some will not want to share their heart any more. It has happened more times than I like to think about much less relate to you all. I am certainly not perfect and have to change my mind on things. I feel really bad that maybe I said something out of turn, I didn't get much sleep last night. I have different opinions on the difference between the positional aspects of grace and the practical aspects of holiness than many others do but after all they are only opinions. I really do think that action is something that the New Testament taught but we should love each other unconditionally whatever.


No problem Jay,

I am so happy that you feel this way about what you say, it means everything is as it should be. I am sorry you had a sleepless night over it of course but that only shows to me that your heart is in the right place. It isn't fun to discipline, or be disciplined, I am sure nobody here disagrees with that. It is hard to say hard things but sometimes they have to be said. Some people seem to get off on slicing others up, thinking it makes them look like they have the authority to do so. You are not like that.

There are all sorts of practical difficulties in "speaking the same thing" - I think that must be an aim rather than a command because it is possible for two people to express completely different opinions but agree fundamentally. I think it is really good fun finding that out but we have to get past the point of offense to do so. In the old days I used to put the world right over copious beers, rarely did it come to blows. It was the "disagreement" always that ignited the discussion. Very often it would transpire that the disagreement was only superficial, maybe down to the use and interpretation of words. And we would end up buddies all the better for seeing it through. You might think it was just the effect of drink but I don't, it is true you get closer to people when you overcome difficulties together.

We are to love each other unconditionally like you say, but that doesn't mean keeping quiet when something is amiss, that isn't love. Sometimes it is best to keep quiet if the motivation to speak is self-righteousness or pride. Then we get the plank out of the way and look at it again. If God is still giving us the job to speak after that, and we know we are more concerned about the other person than ourselves, then keeping quiet is no longer an option, but a disobedience. I expect the waves to get a bit choppy around here sometimes, but the vessel is in good shape, and the crew are experienced, so not to worry...

Love from Mary

Hi Mary and everyone,

The problem of different opinions is a serious one when it destroys the unity of the faith. The church is in a big mess and is much more seen as a disunited body than a unified one. I went to a site recently that one from this list recommended, either Michael or Eric, that said something like, we must agree in the essentials but allow freedom in the non-essentials. That is real good wisdom. That has been something that I have had to learn the last few years in that we don't have to agree on everything. The problem is the outright hatred that many have who do not agree with every little jot and tittle of what they believe in. Eric really has a handle on this with his description of unity and I believe that we should discuss these things even more. Unless you all don't want to of course.

The biggest problem that I see coming at me all the time is the false authority and schismatic teaching that I get from Calvinists. This is the greatest threat to unity that I see because there is so much hatred leveled at me from them. When heretics or Oneness Pentecostals bash us or go around stealing the sheep or come up with all their false doctrine to mislead the unsaved, we can understand that. But when Christians do it, we need to identify what is wrong, either with them or with us. I get hate mail from Calvinists so often simply because I believe that the Bible teaches free will as well as election and that each one of us has a responsibility to respond to God's grace. Because they don't agree, they say some really hateful things about me and anyone else who thinks that God is sovereign enough to grant us the free will to choose to serve Him or reject Him. I just went to one site who tells their visitors that I am pretending inspiration and my site is filled with Pentecostal errors, bad theology and semi-pelagianism. I am wondering what drives people to go around insulting others and like Mary says, "slicing others up," as if they have it all together and everyone else is nothing. Pride of course, Calvinism has done untold damage in its exclusivity and arrogance. But there must be more to this, maybe jealousy? To me the notion that God is so prejudiced against some people that He fore-ordains them to hell is blasphemous. We are supposed to be identified by our love for each other, not in swinging a supposed sword of truth in order to cut each other up.

Does anyone understand where I am coming from here?


Smiling here my dear brother Jay,

I would encourage you here if I could... when I went in search of others who might understand my belief that We are the Children of God now and not just in some sweet by and by... just prior to finding your site and as it turned out this group, I found first several of those websites that debunked you personally and your site as well...

Perhaps I am rebellious - but I refuse to take only the word of those who denigrate another..

Such hate mongering always inspires me to search out the one that they are working so hard to discredit in order to discover for myself from the "horses mouth" whether what they rail against you is true or not...

And so I thank God in this case that whether from knowledge or jealousy your site and this group is promoted by those who refuse to hear or even weigh the truth of your position...

In my case what they attempted for your destruction - turned out for my good and I praise God for finding this group...


That is real good to hear Eric, not that it happens but it happens for my good. And for your good and others, if you think that you have been blessed by this group. I had another letter from one a while back that came to the latter rain site from a link from another that she didn't like and told me that if he is against me, then she is for me. Maybe not the right way to handle things in every situation but comforting, that's for sure. I have prayed that those links will steer people away from them into a kind of truth that you all know that we possess.

One thing I know for sure is that I do not know everything there is to know about theology. That is a good thing most of the time, considering that people use it against others, like we have seen. The degree that I received this year was mostly recognition for work done in the past, this year however will be for work that I am doing and about to do. If my theology is seen as faulty, it is because it is not as systematic as those that criticize me. My theology has mostly been practical and from the same personal standpoint that many of us have experienced that bear witness with our spirits, and from those in history, and the Bible from a full-gospel perspective. I will be more conscious of what I can do to fill in some gaps and take out much of the dead wood. I have also thought of opening many of the pages on my site for others who want to work to expand certain subjects.

I fear their antagonisms are more demon inspired than from jealousy. Usually I think of ignoring them but they are doing it to others as well. I know that we should rejoice in our sufferings but judgment is coming, maybe we should do something about it?


Rom. 12:4,5.---' For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office; so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.'

Here are the two most certain facts about man---his individuality and his solidarity. There is nothing more certain, more definite, than human individuality. 'We are many,' we are various, we are distinct. But there is this other fact, which seems to involve a contradiction, and yet which is just as sure. We are separate and yet inseparable. Our lives are most strangely interwoven. 'We who are many, are one.'

Now, no religion can be true, and no movement which claims the allegiance of men can be true, which does not take into account these two great facts of human existence. It must insist upon the right of every man to develop that unique personality with which God has endowed him to the full height of its possibilities. It must encourage him to be himself, and to complete himself along his own lines, or rather along God's lines for him. And yet it must enforce the obligations that each man owes to other men and to mankind as a whole. It must tell him that he cannot develop that individuality of his along the truest lines, except in service.

No man lives unto himself alone. Whether he likes it or not man is a social being. He can realize himself, even as an individual, only through some form of communal life. What would any of us be like, but for family, for school, for college---each of them a life mediated through social sympathies and exclusions? At times these are apt to seem fetters, but we have learnt to see in them the very condition of realizing ourselves. Service is the only perfect freedom.

St. Paul states the true view of our lives when he compares each of us to a part of the human body. As the members of the body are different, as the hand and the eye fulfill various functions, yet are both essential to the well-being of the whole body, so in the mass of Christian people each has his own gifts and his own powers, which are essential to the whole, and are to be used for the general welfare.

We, in our modern prosaic way, talk of a machine when we want to describe any community constituted for a special purpose; and when we would illustrate the power that works it, we think of fuel, steam, or electricity. He spoke of the living body, and thereby he made plain the common, sustaining life of the whole community, and its ruling principle, as personal and alive---Christ risen, who had bought the body by His service and sacrifice.

Life can be likened only to life. A machine, however cunningly devised, cannot do more than indicate how parts are put together and what sort of work they can turn out. You can take a machine to pieces and put it together again; but you cannot do that with the living organism. If one part is worn or broken you can replace it by another part made at the factory; but it is not so with the animal body. There the hurt of one member is the hurt of the whole: it cannot be scrapped and replaced by a new member of the same kind. The life comes from within and lives in every member, so that the hurt of one is the hurt of all and the health of the whole body is the health of each part.

The Apostle Paul does not discard other illustrations of the truth which he has in view. In particular he often uses the old analogy of a building. 'Ye are God's building,' he tell the Corinthians; and to the Ephesians he says that they 'are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.'

Now an analogy must never be pressed beyond the point which it illustrates. When the Church is spoken of as a building the emphasis is usually on its stability, and hence the stress laid on the foundation, the corner stone, in so many passages. The building is also a unity of many parts and may be taken as the symbol of the household or community which it shelters. But the analogy conveys nothing as to the life of the community; and so, when we speak of its growth, our thought is really seeking out another and deeper analogy---the analogy with the living body.

It is not an outward ordering but an inward quickening. We are members one of another, and the word member is from "membrum," which means a limb, a living part of a living body, sharing a common life.

Here we touch the central point of St. Paul's teaching. It is the common life which makes the body a unity of many members. Each member has its own work to do; but they all serve one body and are sustained by a single life.

The work is manifold, as the members are many; but they all spring out of one spiritual life. For 'all these worketh that one and the self-same Spirit, dividing to ever man severally as he will.' In this spirit is the common life and energy that animate the whole community, so that through it diversities of gifts and operations conspire to the common good: 'we, being many, are one body in Christ.' The Spirit which achieves the unity and proves the power of the Christian community is simply the Spirit of Christ.

All experience proves that we are not separate, fenced-in spirits. We penetrate each other, influence each other for good and evil, for the giving or taking of vitality, all the time. Souls, all souls, are deeply interconnected. And this interaction of souls, this mysterious but most actual communion, deepens for its life and reality on God, Spirit, the immanent creative life, who penetrates and indwells us all, working in and with us. We are all linked in Him. Therefore it is literally true that the secret pressure of the Eternal is present in all movements of mutual service and love.

What is needed is not so much the rebuilding of an edifice as the renewal of life. Our Lord never said, Society must be reconstructed, or The world must be rebuilt. What He said was, man must be born again---born of the Spirit. Unless the spirit is renewed what does the fashion of the building matter? They begin at the wrong end who plan first the shape and size of the house without giving thought to the life that is to dwell therein. 'Except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that built it.'

We need not depreciate the importance of the "problems of reconstruction," as they are called. But the first problem is the problem of the spirit. In what spirit are we to live our lives in the days that are coming? All the other problems follow upon this. If we could solve it their solution also would be easy. If we really sought and obtained the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, all other things would be added to us. They are the accessories; it is the essence---the spirit of the new life.

If we are members of one another in Christ,' then it is evident that symmetry and efficiency should result from the hearty union and cooperation of so many diverse parts. All have not the same function, as all have not similar or equal talents; but there is a place for every one, however peculiar or meager his ability, and no one can be spared. As it takes many men to make a world, so it takes everybody to make an effective Church, or a strong and healthy State. The ways in which the common cause may be advanced, and the work done to which all are summoned, are as numerous and as varied as the faculties with which we are endowed. There is no one but may do some service, or some niche.

We want to realize more fully that we are members of a body, and of the Body of bodies, even Christ. This alone will raise us from our selfish isolation. If we realized that we were members of a body we should feel that the honor, the history, the life of Christianity, were our own. And if there is in each member of the Body of Christ the spirit of sacrifice, the spirit of the Cross, then it matters not whether the function which we fulfil be humble or exalted, provided that it be well done.

No one is more necessary or essential than another, and there can be no claim to a share in the grand result save by service. When there is even one member missing, diseased, defective, or idle, by so much is complete symmetry marred, and a perfect result hindered and impaired.

On the basis of our membership in Christ the dream of unity becomes a reality. We look with shame and sorrow on the divisions, sometimes passing from separation to antagonism, which break up the body of Christendom, and which, at least as much as any other cause, mar the victorious progress of our Lord's Kingdom, against the dead weight of apathy and ignorance, and the positive hostility of sin and unbelief.

In Christ, timothy.

Seems to me that we have to get rid of that religious spirit that works so actively against the liberty and unity that we have in the Holy Spirit. I am certain that we have to be active against it, personally and collectively. I am certain that we have to refuse to entertain anything that is causing discord and division, rebuke it, cast it out in Jesus' Name, set our faces forward towards the Life and the love and the freedom that is promised us in Jesus. Sure we aren't perfect, God knows...we are a motley crew in many respects! Since when has that disqualified us from the love of God? Since when has that disqualified us from the responsibility of loving our neighbour? We are going to be left behind if our pet doctrines and religious bias, whatever shape it takes, cannot allow for another's error, cannot allow for another's lack or even another's abundance. We have a responsibility not to compromise on what God is telling us to do, but not to make everyone else do the same thing.

Praise the Lord for His liberty, His unity, His love, His peace, His joy, His power in the Holy Ghost!

I love it here you guys. Wow I sit down sometimes to read your stuff and I have to thank God.

Love from Mary

Jay I read this last night and wanted to pray over my response and not read anyone else's until I did Two scriptures came to my mind Blessed are you when men shall revile you for my name's sake and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others.

As I said i learned about the holy ghost and latter rain over 40 years ago from my inlaws -- my family was not happy and when my mom could not change me she used the ultimate ploy that I was breaking my grandparents hearts - two real prayer warriors -- well I went to the scriptures and my knees and HE confirmed to me that I was right -- fast forward to now and the same things are happening in my life but each day HE confirms the same things I am involved in getting things ready for the Prayer for the Persecuted church day and as I read thes testimonies I know that we don't have time for listening to the voices that condemn us We just need to Follow HIM Jay, I feel that you are trying to follow His voice and sometimes that is confirmation that we are right because we get such condemnation from those who do not believe as we do and they attack us -- if we know that we are right we just need to go on for Him and ignore them and use all our energy to serve Him.


Hi Lois, and Michael and Mary and Paul and all who are listening and praying,

It is true that we are ignoring those that are attacking us and we can go do what we feel is right regardless and although it hurts, we rely on the comfort of the Holy Ghost and go on about the Lord's business. As I wrote to Eric, maybe we should however, do something about it. The false authority in the church has had its way throughout history but today, God is birthing something new. Will it come in the power and glory that is capable of having us call down spiritual fire from heaven? Will the preservation of unity be in cleansing the church with a purifying fire through denouncing the false leadership? Will He be using us to bring down the strongholds of Babylon or have us as mere spectators?



Be certain that God will deal with this harlot system and that the plagues are sure to come, but they come from His hand not ours. When the disciples wanted to call fire down from heaven and wipe out the Samaritan village, look at what Jesus said...

51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 "For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village. (Luke 9:51-56, NKJV).

Vengeance, vindication, that is not our place, but rather God's. The disciples of Christ do as the Pattern Son. They in all humility seek to save that which is lost, no matter what the personal cost and leave the rest to God, for HE is the God of Vengeance. No wonder that Stephen and Jesus both cried out that He would forgive their persecutors. Paybacks are hell.

Once I was grossly assailed by some church leaders that were splitting the church family I was in. They accused me of having seven demons because I would not submit to their heavy handed, cultic ways with which they were taking captive many whom I loved. I did all I could to maintain the unity of that body in a bond of peace, but it was all for not.

They took almost half of the saints with them into their cult and I was left bleeding. I felt the same pain I did when my parents got divorced. I cried out asking for God to vindicate me of all the wounds and false accusations I received from them and even the ones I loved that followed them, but nothing happened... immediately, that is. The whole experience put me into a lengthy wilderness period in my life. I was devastated on every level. But God got the last word. Within six months one of the false leaders had died of cancer, the other within two years was put in prison for being responsible for withholding medical attention from a child that got sick and died.

When I cried out to God for vindication, He gave me verse seventeen below.

14 "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you. 15 "IF ANYONE FIERCELY ASSAILS YOU IT WILL NOT BE FROM ME. WHOEVER ASSAILS YOU WILL FALL BECAUSE OF YOU. 16 "Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, And brings out a weapon for its work; And I have created the destroyer to ruin. 17 "No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, AND THEIR VINDICATION IS FROM ME," declares the LORD. (Isaiah 54:14-17, NASB).

Don't forget the words of Jesus and what it is that marks us as sons and daughters of the Father...

44 "But I say to you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, AND PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU 45 IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY BE SONS OF YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:44-45, NASB).

I know that you do not mean to call down physical harm on anyone. And, yes, God does use His saints to renounce all that is false and apostate, but we must always do so, remembering that it is not flesh and blood that we are fighting against but the spirits of wickedness that hold them captive, that we might win some back to Christ.

I love you, Jay,


You may be absolutely right Michael. But I don't think that Jesus will be coming back as a suffering servant this time, things will be different. No more meek and mild, He will come with power and great glory, revealed from heaven in blazing fire and the nations of the earth will mourn. Speaking for myself, I hope to be used somehow during this time in an active sense.


Jay, it is all about timing. The two witness were adorn in sack cloth not armor, yet there was power in their humility and that power came from God. I will wait and put away my sword until Jesus says it is time. He left us that example of the suffering servant and the servant is not greater than His Master. That "greater" and unwillingness to suffer is what is causing so much confusion in the body of Christ today. The wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God.

For now I am content to bear the cross and be there for those who are suffering at the hands of the task masters. I have learned much from Moses in the wilderness. I have killed my taskmaster and buried him in the sand, only to be turned on by the ones I sought to save. I will wait for the burning bush before I go down into Egypt once again to unleash His plagues and then it will be in total humility like he did.

Love you brother,


You make a good point Michael and one that I have stuck to all this time myself. I have said that we are not to throw back those stones hurled at us but pick them up in self reflection and use them on the walls of the restored temple to strengthen the walls. The plagues however, were wrought by God but called down by Moses and Elijah also called down the fire to consume the false prophets. If we can use Moses and Elijah as types of the two witnesses, their actions speak louder than their appearance.

I am not advocating doing anything right now, like you said, it is about timing. It just makes me wonder is all.

Love you too,


Jay, I am with you, brother. One time on the other side of the wilderness I went through, the Lord told me that I would be of that two witness company. It was one of those things that you just put on the back burner and let simmer. Only He can call it forth to a rolling boil. I know that you wait before Him to do His will alone. I love you, man. We are one.


Michael this paragraph concurs with my experience: " I know that you do not mean to call down physical harm on anyone. And, yes, God does use His saints to renounce all that is false and apostate, but we must always do so, remembering that it is not flesh and blood that we are fighting against but the spirits of wickedness that hold them captive, that we might win some back to Christ."

I have been learning about this lately and trying to put it into practice. It makes total sense to me to wage the war at that level, not only because of being an intercessor, but because of the love of God....whatever path we have strayed down, God wants us back. I know that self-righteousness, pride and the false authority that springs from it is foul to God. But we have to be sure not to lift ourselves onto a matching pinnacle to fight against it with the same thing, believing that we have the Godly alternative.

Holiness, in my opinion, is what fries sin. That might sound like stating the obvious but I mean in terms of proximity. We know we are to get holy, how many of us here can claim that we are? When we do there will be a few changes in the people around us and so far we have seen that only in part.

Once in church my whole being was rising up in indignation at some self-righteous prattling that was going on within earshot. I stood to pray, I wanted to get myself above that level and communicate with God. If the prattling was going on I wasn't going to be part of it. I opened my mouth to pray, and at that moment felt the Lord draw close. I had got my mouth open to speak but my breath was taken away and I couldn't. The self-righteous outrage that I was feeling evaporated. I knew then that no sin could remain in His presence. That in the presence of holiness everything unholy got fried. I was silenced. I think this is how it will be, that the church up close to God will not be able to hold on to sin. That there is so much sin in the church is an indication of how far away we are from holiness. Again that sounds like stating the obvious but I mean if enough of us were truly holy, then the effect on those around us would be a cleansing one, a purifying one and a perfecting effect on the church.

I don't know if we are yet equipped to recognize and deal with false authority, it looks very much like the real thing. I realize the conversation thus far was to do with a point in the future when judgment is coming, but meanwhile there is enough to get active on in this respect. Partly because many of us are still sore from the bad experiences we have had in the church already, we are loathe to enter into spiritual relationships at any deep level in case we get burned again. We exist in a kind of formality which makes it possible to avoid testing out authority in love and humility, which are marks of holiness. We have to help each other over that threshold of true love in the Lord because it is a place where false prophets and teachers and upholders of false authority cannot go.

I guess the point I am making is that for too long self-righteous holier-than-thou attitudes in the church have masqueraded as holiness, and some of us with prophetic gifting have thought ourselves justified in rising up to fight it with more of the same. I have done it myself in the past and I don't want to do it any more.

I see the same thing over Jezebel: prophets trying to beat the control problem by controlling things themselves. The enemy laughs and loves every moment.

We have got to opt out of all of that. We have got to get out of that mindset. We have got to know that it is love that sets us apart and that with it we can overcome every evil thing. When the love that we have for each other becomes something humbling that brings others to their knees we have begun to get holy. Spiritual battles cannot be fought with personal attack, that isn't where the fight is. Time to let go of everything that has hindered us from loving with the love of God, time to rescue who we can from the fire while there is still time.

Much love from Mary

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