The Church Exodus

June 19th, 2002

When the stirring of my heart was finally given over to restore the latter rain discussions, it was upon one specific issue and that was the idea that many are leaving the institutional churches on the premise that they are getting out of Babylon. I left it up to you to choose the topic and the obvious direction is to take on this very thing. There were other concerns as well and serve as examples of why people are leaving. It was mentioned that we should all share our concerns; Jezebel has infiltrated the church; we should be making the church a bride, not a widow; the church has become man's domain and powerless, rather than God's domain; there should be balance; we have been hurt and rejected but thinking of going back in; the importance of getting the five-fold ministry to work in the church; concerns of the one world church; Jesus is being cast out of the vineyard; and others. Responses that suggest things that were already discussed in the past are not included.

So the question this time is this: Is the present church system Babylon herself? Or has Babylon infiltrated the present church system? The distinction between the two is important. On one hand, we are admonished to flee Babylon but on the other hand, we are told to strengthen what remains (Revelation 3:2). We discussed Babylon in depth already and found that she is not just a religious system but political and economic as well. We may need to first identify the church and then identify its relationship to Babylon. They think that getting into the fours walls of a house that they have fled Babylon but they still remain in the confusion, worldly delusions and divisiveness that they pretend to be separated from. Babylon is a spiritual delusion that rides upon the beast. Feel free to contradict that. Just remember that this is a discussion about the church, not who Babylon is. Our dialogue with that can be found at Babylon the Great

Here is my take on it:

The gates of hell itself will not prevail against the church, it seems however, that schismatic Christian "prophets" are among those trying the hardest to destroy it. There is judgment coming to the church but that is God's job, not ours; our job is to perfect and nurture it. God will spit out the luke-warm church, we need to love each other not to be a part of that. There will be ministers weeping between the porch and the altar, there will be those that have not filled their lamps and there will always be those that love Babylon enough not to recognize the destruction until it is too late. There are controlling pastors and priests in the church, there are bible teachers teaching half-truths and quenching the spirit, there are self-willed prophets out of order. God's people are being deceived every day but listen: there are better times coming. The Lord will suddenly come into His temple and the spirit will be poured out beyond measure. There is restoration coming and He will be using us to bring it. Do you believe that or not?

I spent years outside the four walls of a church. Do not give up on the church. I am part of a church now where the pastor is eager to hear what I have to say and can be considered a positive type of what is to come. The church will weather the storm. There are those of us that will not abandon the flock and stay to strengthen what remains. Our task is to perfect the church and to restore what the locusts have eaten, not abandon her and be as the locusts. Jesus bled and died for the church and that includes all of us no matter how much the church system needs to be reconciled with truth. It is love and holiness that will perfect the Bride, not abandonment and exclusion.

There are home churches, cell groups, storefront churches, meetings in rented halls and dinner groups. There is nothing wrong with these things, God can lead us all to meet any place or any way according to His will and will be there among us as we lift Him up. The problem I see is that there are people in these small groups leaving the established churches as if it is the IC that is Babylon and then bring their Babylonian baggage with them. They in fact have not left the confusion of Babylon or the nature of the beast or the false authority of Jezebel or the separation of the Nicolaitans but perpetuate these false practices thinking they are doing God's will. Of course there are good groups being formed but then there are good groups in the Institutional churches as well. I see no difference; unity is still eluded. Fact is that the church is not perfected yet in any form and will not be until we finally get it together with the love, holiness and unity necessary for Jesus to return.

Now what is your take on it?


Dear Jay,

I admit that I am a latecomer, but I found your sight helpful when I was writing a letter to the deacons at our church concerning people who wanted to rid the church of our worship pastor. The subject of your material was Diotrophes. Sadly the Lord took him to a better church.

Now to my suggestion: What about opening up your forum to submissions from people who would like the opportunity of sharing things that God has given them? You would be the editor with full discretion about what is appropriate or not.

Since you already have an established network, this would serve to spread God's word to His people like a rocket launcher.

What do you think? I myself have several things in my computer that might be good to use. There is a lot of light out there, and God doesn't want it stuffed under a bushel or sitting in a drawer.

Thanks for your consideration.

Gayle Orf

Jay...thanks for the opportunity for input. I am very new to this ministry, and many things concern me. Right now, I am doing an extended study on how the Jezebel spirit has infiltrated the Church. I am also checking out the "spiritual mapping" thing. Perhaps these topics would be appropriate for discussion.

Thanks, and God Bless You

Rev. Rich Snyder

Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence..

Dear Jay:

Have been transformed by the Spirit of God, I am being prepared by the Lord to join His royal priesthood. The fire has been hot, however, the cleansing great, as there is no greater joy than having the opportunity to worship with Him behind the veil.

Not long ago, I read a word (from the Elijah List) from Graham Cooke. Here is a mighty prophet, that seeks only the true heart of God. Perhaps, you've read this. I don't know what your feelings are, but I'd like to share it with you, and allow you to discern through the Word and through prayer, whether God would lead you to use this as a topic of discussion.


Dan Toavs

Here it is.....

A Word Through Graham Cook

(This is the essence of the message) "And the Lord says, as bridal intercessors, it is your joy and delight to pray for the goodness of God to come down so that the church can learn that we really do overcome evil with good. The Holy Spirit will give you a new strategy for prayer and for praying through in perseverance, one that contains delight and laughter, one that is full of ardent, passionate love, one that is bathed in fresh worship and one that is coming out of a deeper closeness. Like John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, you will be lying back with your head on the chest of Jesus and He will present you with an opportunity to position Him from restful intimacy, that you will have a powerful confidence in your abiding rest in the Lord..."

"...I pray that none of us will lose out in this next season but that we will gain our inheritance. For those of us Lord who felt like we had been robbed for so many years, I pray that you will restore what the locust has eaten in the name of Jesus. I ask Lord for a time and a season of unprecedented, unparalleled favor of God upon us that we may come into a whole new place of spirituality, a whole new place of walking with you where we will be convinced of the bigness of God and that God loves us and God cares for us and God is for us and he wants us to succeed and He is on our side. I ask that a revelation of your love for us would fill every single heart in Jesus name. Amen. "


No doubt you are seeing and hearing of the now sizable numbers of people who are leaving the Church, a phenomenon that seems to extend beyond the boundaries of North America. It is as if a certain restlessness has settled upon the saints of God, a restlessness caused by an almost insatiable hunger for God and His ways, with an almost equal fervor of intolerance for the things of man. There are a number of saints and Pastors who are seeing and experiencing this without understanding. I introduce here a possible subject for discussion with these few questions and comments:

Has the Church, through years of evolution from its First Century roots, become a structure more dominated by man's dictates than God's? Is this restlessness a silent rebellion in the heart of men against a man-orchestrated system? Is this restlessness a search for a God appointed form of assemblage?

Not to pronounce my experience as representing anything except "my experience," yet I can share, at least testimonially, that God separated us from the "Church System" several years ago and has led us into an environment akin to what I have read in the Book of Acts. Almost unknowingly we have been led to a similar scenario as to the structural makeup of First Century Church.

Others in other area churches experienced a similar restlessness, and as only God can do, united us with what began as a Wednesday night bible study and prayer time. We began to meet in homes, restaurants, and now offices in what can best be described as a headless church, meaning that we acknowledge the leadership of elders (those seasoned in things of the Spirit of God), yet shy away from the one-man show. We all participate while in the assembly, the presence of the Spirit of God is awesome, young Christians grow, young people are absorbed and participate in what usually runs two and a half to three hours of service, and all are truly spiritually nourished by the experience.

Though our group has no more than 35 present on any given Sunday, the corporate anointing is powerfully experienced. We have seen lives changed, prayers answered, spiritual growth and revelation in an unprecedented fashion. Those within the Body are often led to pray for others within the Body both during and after services; the testimonial results of this spiritual linkage are incredible. Ironically, the church is called The Church With No Name; but for that matter we have no steeple, no stained glass, no choir, no choir robes, no pastor, no pulpit, and no pipe organ.

Though we are all new to this experience, we continue to simply seek God continuously for His purpose in our lives individually and corporately. Several weeks ago someone introduced a book written by Frank Viola entitled "Rethinking The Wineskin" which addresses in written language what we have witnessed experientially. This has served as a great comfort in terms of the confirming witness it has provided. Mr. Viola has traced the history of the Church and points out many elements of history that seem to have inflected man's ideals and dictates into perhaps what once was a direct link to God inspired Church structure.

The subject of a powerless Church has been a burden in my heart for many years, as has the freedom of the World's System to so openly function without impunity from within God's own house. It is my deepest belief that Godly structure ignites God's power - the thought being that if the structure is wrong, the power and fullness of God cannot and will not manifest. Can it be that the Holy Spirit is directing us back to a Church structure more aligned with the First Century format than what we now see?

I submit this for possible discussion, as I am interested to see views from others on this vital subject.

In Him,

Clay Sikes

So glad to see you doing the Latter Rain list again Jay. This is on my mind lately: This time last year I was in a very confused state about the church. Having come through a difficult time and finding no place that wanted what the Lord was doing in me, I put out a fleece to see whether to "go or stay". It was quite clear that I should come out at that point, and just afterwards I met you at Latter Rain. Praise God for that.

Reading the stuff on your site I sat like a goldfish for a few weeks, opening my mouth and shutting it, and praising the Lord an awful lot because of what I was seeing. Things began to make sense at last.

Further understanding came as I got involved with the prophetic community on the internet, it seemed even the rejection by the church was not confusing any more - I just hadn't realized what part I was playing but I understand it better now.

This is the part that might upset people. I would like to know how others feel. With the understanding I find myself with a new sense of responsibility to the church and I am considering "going back in".

The tension in me seems to have gone.

I know Jesus loves the church and that means all of us who belong to Him. The perfecting process affects us all except those who believe they are already perfect, who believe they already have it all together. Nevertheless Jesus loves them too and we are a long way off perfect ourselves if we can't do likewise. Hard to do it when they are likely to hate you for being right but we are already warned of that. Hmmm. Or should I just start knitting the straight jacket?

See you later,
Love, Mary

How about how the 5-fold ministry work together to help each other, as well as the rest of the body of Christ.


I would like to hear your discussion on transition of the Traditional Church.
Also more about the 5-Fold Ministry being established in a Traditional Church.

God Bless!


Hey great to hear from you Jay!...You ARE sorely missed!....Since 9/11 satan is attacking all organized religion ....I believe he is setting the stage for the one world government WITH his one world church. Once that these terrorists are weeded out, he will come after the christian.......... ......Possibly labeling them as a terrorist organization !....Here in Columbus Ohio, It is illegal to hold prayer meetings in a private home (Its on the books) It is not enforced as far as I know.....YET!!!....You preach love, and are against division among us christians, I am too!....In this late hour we need to forget differentiation in doctrine, and shoulder to shoulder beat back this onslaught of the enemy....Defense has never won any battle!....Attack! attack the enemy till he can raise his head no more! These are the things (I believe)....are what we should discuss.....And PRAY the Lord give us POWER to resist the devil!.... "United we stand, divided we fall"!... I have not been a member of The Latter Rain very long ...But we are not the enemy, The WORLD , the FLESH , and the DEVIL.....ARE!...If I am out of line here, Jay .....Please let me know....Love ya'

Christian Carl

Hi Jay:

When I saw this I thought you'd be interested.




And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. Mark 12:8

--My bride to be; such is the condition of much of My Church today. I have been removed from the midst of all that is done.

But I have good news for you. I am coming to the Church. I am not coming as a lamb, but as a lion. As I first came as a sacrifice for sin, it was necessary, it was My Father's will to be killed and to be cast out. But as I come to My Church now, there will be a vast difference.

There will be shakings, there will be severe shakings and I will not be easily ignored. For I am coming to make ready a people who have cried out and who have sought out and who I have brought out; the future of My Church is bright and glorious. For I am indeed coming to My Church to enable her to bring honor and glory and increase in My Kingdom.

Do not fear the months ahead, but instead seek Me even more. Do not allow fear to turn you aside from My glorious path. For I love you and care compassionately for you. Instead, go into all the world. Go to the unusual places. Places where there are people that will not want to kill Me, but who will embrace Me. Places where they will not chase Me from their midst, but who will listen to My every Word. Places where they will not cast Me out of the vineyard, but who will build vineyards in My honor.

Go where the brokenhearted cry out for freedom. Go where the lame cannot walk and where the blind cannot see. Go to the forsaken and hidden people that I have prepared for such an hour. Go and know that I am with you. Go and show My mighty power to save. Seek My Face. Call upon My Name. Be and become an accurate expression of Me; in a vineyard of My choosing.

Hello Brother Jay, it is good to hear your cogent voice coming though with loving kindness of God once more, How about beginning with the discussion of six, Twenty-four hour days for Creation, vs. the Day Age, or the Genesis days being long epochs of time, in which God created the universe for the planet earth and life so that He could have a relationship with His creation--man and through Christ's redemptive work, defeat evil. Holding to the six twenty-four hour days as a dogma has led to a wrong headed view of the Gospel, which excludes anyone who hold to the basic tenets of western science as credible and necessary--for medicine engineering, biological science et cetra. By holding to this as a truth that is inviolable and consigning the Day-Age folks like myself to the curses at the end of Revelation, (a noted radio evangelist did this just one year ago and no longer listen to him). should not this be taught as an open ended discussion that we should not divide on. In Jesus

James Kelly

Hello Jay; I think it is great that you are starting up the latter rain list again. I would be honored to be a part of it. It does my heart good to be amongst those that the Spirit dwells. And I am encouraged mightily by what Homeless Action Board is doing. The time is ripe for it---and I think it is time for latter rain.

You mentioned that you were open for suggestions. It is the same as before---the suggestion is that if you stick to the Scriptures, you cannot go wrong. It is only when the focus is on such things as cults, Protestant vs. Catholic forum/discussions, that the waters become muddy and people become emotional about their perspective. I like Scriptural doctrine and Scriptural application. These topics are edifying to the writer and the reader of the subject matter. Christian attributes, ie. righteousness, fellowship, etc. are good topics for a group to grow and reflect upon.

It is good to have you back at the helm Jay.
Love Tim.

Hello Jay,

It's nice to have news of you and to hear that you're about to start the Latter Rain list going again.

As for topics of discussion, maybe the need that we all have to "rest and reflect" would be a good starting point. I am glad that you did take a rest and step back and think on things. I am guilty of pushing hard, always pushing myself and it does catch up with you physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Sometimes, God gives us "health reminders" that it's time to slow down. He did make the roses for us to smell and enjoy after all. And just like roses, we need "pruning" every so often.

Taking a rest from it like you did Jay, only makes your vision more clear and directed. I always have enjoyed the list since I joined and I feel that you have always represented all points of view well. I agree that hate should have no place in the discussions. We are all commanded to love one another. It's easy sometimes to get sidetracked by the world around us, but if we remain focused on God, then we tend to see things from his point of view more readily.

I'll be out here cheering you along as you "take up the list" again. You are correct in that the list IS your calling, Jay.

God bless you and I will look forward to getting your mailings again.


Glad to have you back.
I would like to discuss Israel and our spiritual connection to Israel. Some believe, including myself, that what is happening to Israel in the natural is happening to the church spiritually.

Will he find faith on the earth when he comes, or will he find a church full of pharisees and 'leaders' of all kinds.

The one that wants to be greatest in heaven better humble himself the most here on earth. Rather than hopes of being noticed and looked up to for various talents, let him hide his best service and act out of a loving heart that hides no guile of selfish interest, or hope of return.

Rather than men trying to 'get out front', let us stay behind and linger with the Lord, waiting for him, with utter humility seeking only to know him more, love him better, and be filled with his fullness.

Out of the abundance of our hearts then we can love our enemies and not try to get ahead of our fellows.

Help us Daddy, to be like you, so infinitely kind and humble, so utterly devoid of selfishness, so completely devoted to pure selfless love...

Teach us to truly understand, "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto Jesus Christ". This free gift is by faith, not self effort. We believe you have taken us out of the darkness and into the light, and that light is your Son Jesus. We trust him, not ourselves, not our own efforts, not our own thoughts, but we trust in you with all of our hearts and lean not to our own understanding. In all our ways we acknowledge you, oh help us to see where we are not...

Bless your name Father,

David Flint

Hello Jay,

Thanks for opening up the discussion again. One of the reasons I joined was to discuss the Bible.

I have several suggestions of topics for discussion.

1). The ministry of Christ as our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary (Heb. 7): I did a study of this awhile back and found it very fascinating. Did you know that all the ceremonies and sacrifices of the earthly sanctuary service were prophetic of Christ's ministry and also of the end of the world? It's incredibly complex and I don't suppose we'll ever understand it all (while we're still here on earth anyway) but it is a very interesting to study.

2). Hell fire: This is the subject I'm studying right now. In particular I'm trying to fing out if it's true that Hell burns forever as most churches teach. At first glance it seemed like the Bible supported the doctrine of eternal torment but as I've dug deeper I've been finding verses which don't seem to harmonize with this idea. For instance: Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal or everlasting fire (Jude 7). It uses the same greek word as is used for the "everlasting" fires of hell, but obviously Sodom and Gomorrah aren't burning anymore; apparently "everlasting" as it's used in the Bible means something different from what we're used to. And in Malachi 4 it is stated that the wicked are burned up and not a "root" or "branch" is left--they become nothing but ashes (v. 4). Those are two of the verses that I have found, there are many others as well. I would really like to discuss this if you haven't done

3). The Sabbath: A good question to start with would be, "Where did worshipping on Sunday come from?" I've only found eight places in the Bible that mention the first day of the week and none of them says anything about Sunday being the "New Sabbath".

Thanks for considering these things and for opening up the discussions again.

Your brother in Christ,


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