Elijah Syndrome Conclusion: Confronting the Prophets of Ahab

May 27, 2003

We know that the church is sick and we know that we are the church. Used to be when we got sick, it was a reason to go to church, now it is an excuse to stay home. It is hard to identify the faithful led by the spirit today. Separating ourselves from ourselves because we think that we are under a sickness called Babylon and we are told to get out of her is just a cover up to mask the true sickness. The true church will stick by each other. They will not get their loved ones drugged out or oppressed by a delusion. It takes deliverance but to actually get well in these last days, it is by accepting the Seal of God and shaking off the mark of the beast. You can go ahead and expect some kind of 666 tattoo on your forehead if you want but those who know better are looking for the mark in our consciousness and realize that the world has taken it already. Understanding the difference and being on the right side is of utmost importance. We do need to come out of Babylon but she is a mystery and mysteries are not understood in obvious ways.

The United States of America is the eagle of prophecy and the leader of the four headed beast. I love America but it is not on the God ordained course that first made me love her. People who give their spiritual power to leaders who support the beast in its economic, military and political world domination have taken its mark. The God they bless you with is not the Lord God, it is the comfortable delusion and frills of Babylon. The delusion allows Christians to worship the Lord and dilute the revival force toward a worldly kingdom. The people will despair without the truth. Jesus will not give His kingdom to another and His army awaits for that kairos time.

There are two churches that today's Christian's have given their allegiance to. One is the true spiritual Church that in many areas have been held captive by the other church that the beast rides upon. The Elijah syndrome would have you believe that since the church is full of hateful birds that we should flee the church and run to God as if His glory is only found outside of the church. Faithful people that are surrendered to the will of God are overcoming all the confusion and false authority of Babylon and have a ministry of strengthening what remains and bringing it into perfection inside or outside the church. Wherever Babylon falls, God's glory remains in His people.

The key to true unity and preaching in one prophetic voice is in knowing what the beast is, denouncing it and bringing refreshment to the captives. Most comer-outers bring their bourgoise Babylonian baggage with them. Getting out of that delusion is in knowing that the Christian church in many parts of the world have given their allegiance, worship and power to the image of the beast. Church structure is irrelevant, cold or hot is irrelevant. The prophets of Ahab must be exposed along with the double-minded, the trumpet must be blown.

This is the essence of deliverance from the Elijah syndrome and from Ahab and Jezebel and receiving a double portion for the trouble. The power is in understanding where the power of Jesus is by deciding between these two masters quickly, our true Jesus and His spiritual Kingdom or the image of Je$u$ and the one world order kingdom. Both have their Messiah, the Christ and the spirit of anti-christ.

The gates of hell will not prevail upon the church but judgment does begin with her. Jesus will never leave us or forsake us or take away His glory from us even through tribulation no matter how silent He may seem. Whenever two or more are gathered together in His name, He is there. One of the seven churches will be spit out and He warns of the light going out in another. There are great rewards for a church dressed in white. Jesus is not leading you out into the wilderness to camps outside, He is right where He said He would be, in our hearts and in the hearts of those that love Him and His people. Jesus built the church upon us knowing the rock of His authority, the Christ who delivers us. We can be faithful to Him and His spiritual church, inside or outside of institutions. Love is the cement that joins us together, not sickness or defection. Know the difference.

Discussions went in different directions this time, most tied up to this conclusion. Whether we agreed on things or not, we all agreed that God is in control. Hit reply and get back to me if you like and we can see where the Lord takes us. Or come by and be part of the lightship fellowship and discussions at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Latter_rain_lightship/



Thanks for continuing to speak in the spirit of Elijah! I'm probably not as holy as most of your group regulars, and doubtless lack the knowledge and time to engage in regular discourse at this time, but I do find your discourse very inspiring. Therefore, want to at least encourage you not to let the hate mail discourage you. It's sad that so many are decieved by false prophets in the church who really are advancing a narrow philosophical and political agenda. Much of this agenda seems to only to come from the world but also from darker powers...

It's hard to be sure, but sometimes i feel like the spirit of the Anti-Christ envelops the Ahab(s) of today... It cerainly seems as you say, that Ahab is leading us closer and closer toward Armaggadon. But misleading "prophecies" which point the finger on the nations of Europe as being the seat and origin of the Beast--as if we were immune to that sort of thing over here in America--and the programs of the ruling party in Israel as the holy, sanctioned heart of Israel, has closed the eyes of so much of the church to truth...

Certainly, if a pretribulation rapture were to occur it should be right around the corner, because all signs seem to point that the tribulation is about to begin (if indeed, it hasn't already)!

Go with God brother Jay, and keep on speaking truth!

Sincerely, George L

Hi George,

You write what I had hoped would be the response of all the replies that I got from the Elijah Syndrome post. I got some excellent letters, the loneliness, the false authority and such and none were opposed to what I was saying but confronting the prophets of Baal was foremost on my mind and you were the first to bring it up. Don't feel you are not as holy as others on this list, your humility puts you right up there and it is God that gets all the glory anyway.

Your mention of the connection between the Anti-christ spirit and Ahab is precisely what I had hoped would come out in the discussion. An evangelist in church the other Sunday prayed that the Lord would give me more boldness, I have to admit that speaking about the Anti-christ takes some courage that I lack sometimes.

I cannot agree with you more on the misleading prophecies of Europe being the location of the beast. Actually the beast has four heads, one of them is the wings of an eagle which had been plucked from the standing lion.

"The lion had a pair of great eagle's wings. The wings were plucked, lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to him." Daniel 7:4.

America for sure as the eagle and the standing lion being the UK. I did quite a study on the beast at http://www.latter-rain.com/escha/beast.htm and came to the same conclusion that you have that America has its part in these end time scenarios marching toward Armageddon.

You and I think a lot alike. This issue is the greatest we face today but not spoken much because the prophets of Baal are having their way with most Christians and the ones in the know are keeping silent.

Thanks for the comments, would welcome more dialogue on this matter.


Hello Jay and everyone. Jay if you think you are sticking out your neck, if that is what it is, then I will too. I'm in it for the long run. I find it interesting that after the first seal in Revelation is opened by Christ that the first thing seen was one that was given a crown---given, elected by somebody---whatever [Rev. 6:2.]. And that his mode of operation is to go about conquering and to conquer. In looking at the Armageddon issue you mentioned, this is the preliminary step--- the first thing that will be seen.

As for who is "The Antichrist," "The Son Of Perdition," "Judas---etc." that will be seen in the end by all. I do not believe as many of the old commentators who did not live in our time that the rider is Christ, for Christ was the one who opened the seal. He will be someone trying to resemble the Messiah. He can be closely identified with the world ruler who is pictured as the first beast of Revelation 13. He will come as a counterfeit Christ. The general accuracy of this explanation is verified through comparison with the parallel account of these end-times in Matt. 24:5; Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8 [also Matt. 24:24]. First in sequence among the signs spoken of earlier by Christ was the emergence of many "imposter" christs. This conclusion agrees with the character of the other three riders also. All of them are associated with the great end-time imposter and his forces. The book of Revelation is full of satanic imitations of Christ and His conquest, including the crowns of 12:1,2 and the victories of 11:7 and 13:7. This rider is one of them.

Love you brother,


Hi Tim,

Great response. Yes I do feel that I am sticking my neck out sometimes, I think that this is the reluctance that many have for not bringing this issue up. It is sensitive and with the rose colored glasses that so many Americans have on, it sounds to much like something unpatriotic. I have stuck my neck out so much my head is bent forward but more and more, I am getting the boldness I need.

I too have trouble in thinking of the white horse as Jesus. I was doing a class on Revelation until I got to that part and stopped cold because of the commentaries on it. Your insight is very helpful here. White is always a symbol of purity and the good guy always wears white but living by the sword is deserving of punishment rather than being in the person of Christ. What it is to me is that the antichrist will look good to the prophets of Baal. He will be considered anointed by Christians who see God on the side of America, I see it as worshiping the image of the Beast. I have always thought that the right wing insanity that many conservative Christians have, is the delusion that God has sent them for believing that very lie.

This is a very unpopular stand to take among worldly Christians in America. God said that His kingdom is not of this world so I can easily stand on His word here.

Maranatha indeed.


Greetings Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Confronting the false prophets, I feel, has to be directed with godly wisdom and not our own. Do they need to be dealt with? Yes. Before we go to them first we must learn to recognize the many images of the beast.

In Isaiah 14;13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

This will be key in this letter in exposing one of the many false prophets of Baal/Ahab.

I am going to try to keep it to the point. The first problem was Lucifer said "I will" it has and never will be about his will. Alot of the church world today (NOT ALL) is so concerned about what the enemy is going to do. He has them looking into the future. He has them looking toward the skies for a return of Christ in the future and not appropriating what Christ has given them in the now. A mentatlity has developed that Christ is coming to save them and destroy some evil guy that is going to rule the world. All the while the fact they overlook is He has already saved them and evil is already defeated and all they have to do is appropriate it. And as long as he has them looking into the future they can't see that he has already infiltrated the very place they dwell. The spirit of antichrist is already here and has been since the ressurection of Christ. What was Lucifer in the heavenlies? He was the chief musician. He was the song leader. He was misguided into believing that it was all about his work. At his songs of praise and worship the heavens moved this way and that. What is the church world doing today? ((I am Not Against Praise and Worship! It has it's place but not above God))

Many of them have made it all about the praise and worship. Its about getting that tingly feeling and crying. If the Lord comes down and people start falling out in the Spirit, they camp out on it and either start a new denomination or every week they play those same songs trying to recreate the same experience. And it doesn't matter how the Lord moves it is the same at alot of churches. They camp out at the cross. The cross is good, that's where we begin, but let us move on to the ressurection which is where the power is to go on unto perfection. The antichrist spirit has them so wrapped up in their programs and their religion they have no time for God's program or God's religion. They have exalted their plans above the spirit. They have exalted the music above the Word. It has become self centered and not Christ centered. We get an hour and a half of music and maybe 30 mins of the word. No one is open to move a service by the spirit. What do you think would happen if you were the pastor of a large church and you came in one day and said "The Spirit wants us to skip everything and go right into the word today." You would probably be looking for a new church. It's not the praise and worship that gets them into trouble, its when they exalt it above the Word every service.

We have so many different religions in the world no one will listen to another, we all have our own traditions. The spirit of antichrist has caused such a discord in the body of Christ that people are beating each other over the head with the Word and twisting it and rewriting it and taking out the parts they don't like. And we forget what our Lord said. In Mathew 15

  1. Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
  2. Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
  3. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
  4. For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
  5. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
  6. And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
  7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
  8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
  9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The Lord isn't looking for a man of the hour. Not that single individual, He has been longsuffering for the body of Christ to come together in unity to stand up and speak with the authority which has been given them by the power of the ressurection of Christ that he may create the fruit of their lips and move to Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian (the antichrist) in My land (people), and upon My mountains(Zion) tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

So to look for the antichrist we need look no further than our own front door. Let's remove the beam that is in our own eye that we may see clearly to pull it out of our brother's eye. He is already at work just as Christ has already defeated him.

Has he ascended into heaven? Has he exalted his throne above the stars of God? Is he sitting also upon the mount of the congregation? Has he ascended above the heights of the clouds? Has he become like the most High? After our precious Lord defeated him have we given him so much power that now he is looked upon with fear and terror as some giant dragon who may devour us at any moment? What happened to Gods People that Eve should call him a serpent and St John has called him a dragon? The time has come for God's people to say enough! No further! If we are going to expose the prophets of Baal and Ahab let us first recognize the images of the beast. Let our eyes be opend so that we believe NOT the lie. Let us not trample the precious blood of Christ that he should send us strong delusion that we should believe the lie. For we have heard the report...do we believe it?

With all love and peace and unity in Christ,

A servant

GREETINGS IN THE NAME OF JESUS!!!!!!! hey long time no e-mail. i was just wondering what your thoughts on this war are, and what God is saying to you about this war? what are your thoughts on the view of it being prophesied in Isaiah 13:17 and Jeremiah 51:ll & 28. well, take care and much love. may GOD shine HIS grace on you mightily!
God bless!!!


Isaiah 13:17  Behold, I will stir up the Medes (the area of Iraq) against them (Babylon), which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Jeremiah 51:11  Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

Jeremiah 51:28  Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.

Hi Jeremy,

I think that the war could be a prelude to Armageddon. Since I am into a Jesus that has a kingdom not of this world, I do not support what is going on. I believe that the god that President Bush refers to is the image of the Beast, not the Lord God. We did a little discussion on it on the lightship forum but most people are keeping silent about it. I think that it is an important issue to discuss, but publicly. Can't get a lot of response on that.

As far as Isaiah 13, I have always thought that it referred to the last days and to that area. Good call. Jeremiah too, thanks for putting the verses in my way. I do believe that they are fulfillments to these prophecies today. Will be thinking about that.


War imminent then.

America has the funds and the resources to call all the shots and the UK is happy it seems to shelter under the shadow of her wing.

I cannot pretend I will not be relieved personally if we get through this without too much of a scrape but if it is because of being buddies with the gods of this world and joining with the biggest bullies in the playground at the expense of the weak then I can't promise to have a clear conscience either.

It is a minor adjustment to turn the word need into greed, and a similarly small lapse in personal and corporate vigilance that makes Christianity the kind of blatant hypocrisy that can parade on the street against abortion and then support the massive slaughter of children in other lands, along with their mothers, their fathers, their young men and all who with Jesus could be dreamers and visionaries in last days Holy power. The history books will be written soon and the heroes will be coloured in. What, are we as Christians in the West going to sit by with a smug smile and bask in the glory of a wonderful victory? Probably. When Jesus said "Go into all the world" we were to run with the divine commission, not push in with the instruments of mass destruction and slaughter. Depressing.

Conservative thinking has always masqueraded as spirituality, the counterfeit would not be worth the effort if it was anything less than 95% convincing. That is why we are going to be fooled a lot of us and are already fooled into thinking we can wrap the whole problem up in an easy answer, bypassing the blood, sweat and tears necessary on home ground to convert a lukewarm will into a fire of Holy activity. War will cost us. And so will peace. All depends if we are willing to pay the price.

Confronting the prophets of Baal and identifying Antichrist ought not at this stage to be left at the point of examination of scripture against theological interpretations of the times - there is hardly the time to thumb the pages even with the sound of killing already in our ears. It is time to throw ourselves on God to drive out everything that opposes Christ and everything that is false among us and within us that our whole corporate being is cleansed and empowered to rise up and stand against it.

Lord we have preferred our blindness and nakedness to your light and your truth. In our speakings in the church we have profaned you, mixing the light with the dark, proclaiming one thing and doing another, affirming our wealth and not accepting your poverty. Lord separate us and bring us out from the evil of double standards, and give us pure hearts to serve you, so that our vision is restored, and we may see you and your truth, and speak as you direct, in Jesus' Name, AMEN

Love from Mary

Hurt begets hatred. Violence begets clamour. All men’s ways and deeds with intent and motive not of God in His character will be deemed pointless personally and shall pass away.

Incident creates history. Much validity of incident brings attention to man building kingdoms, fame and earthly power for selfish intent, for earthly short-lived position, recognition and authority. Man is known and rules with desire to possess while breath is given yet lost when breath is taken. A soul lives or dies by choices made freely before God. All words, deed and actions determine the outcome regarding life Eternal. Only those things Eternally significant shall stand forever. Earthly pleasure has no purpose unless a soul converts and grows closer to God and lives in His benefits walking in His Spirit doing His will in earth as it is in heaven.

What we see happening is all part of the big picture. There is a purpose for darkness and God to created it separate from Himself. Man would know the difference through the manifestation of the character of Light and darkness. Throughout the Word and History we see the story of redemption that would be fulfilled and completed. One such story is found in Joshua.

The story of Joshua and Caleb represent and are a typology of the heavenly Kingdom possessed by man in the heart through Jesus Christ our Savoir by the Spirit according to the Word who was made flesh. They were of an excellent Spirit and Caleb was from the tribe of Judah and Oshea (Joshua) from the tribe of Ephraim. They represented the two witnesses (which is the typology of the church that would be one; the two nations, the two sisters, the Gentiles and the Jews etc)of God. (Numbers 13:6,8, Ezekiel 37). They represented those of the excellent Spirit of the Living God that would inherit the Heavenly portion the inheritance allotted to those that would be the church that manifested the character of God in their heart. For only the pure in heart shall see God. They represented those that would be made one through the Spirit of God that would be THE CHURCH, the New Jerusalem, the daughter of Zion, the bride of Christ. No abomination was found in their heart. No evil intent but to walk through the land that was evil and with an excellent Spirit knowing that God is with them where ever they were led and went and they were well able to endure through all that would happen. The heavenly Kingdom from in Christ was won as the battle was the LORDs. (Joshua means salvation) It was only those two found in the excellent Spirit that were left to possess the inheritance of all those millions. . . They were found with abundant fruit that would make new wine. It was good fruit. . It is a narrow way and few will find it. God knows the heart.

We have documented throughout history and see now that many kings and great preachers have risen with great followings, but not FULLY FOLLOWED the LORD as Joshua and Caleb.

Just as Christ had to be crucified, so also we shall see all things written come to pass. God’s word makes it clear that all that say they are Israel are not Israel. Also, Satan will be destroyed. We shall see a fulfillment of the end times in all that must be. Prophets of old as written as Ezekiel and John were given understanding as written some that will come to pass. It was revealed to them that the same root of the spirit of the antichrist who rules in violence brings harm to men desiring to steal, rob, maim and destroy that they conquer and possess on earth. Man has taught tradition and ways to give honour to man by mans interpretation. Also manmade leadership in authoritative organized manipulative ways have brought man to follow in unholy ways establishing structures that will surely pass away. Counterfeit leaders who say they are Christians will loose their own souls. Balaam, Judas as many kings and prophets all knew Gods voice and were part of the history of man and the Word written but themselves lost their own soul, as their intent was unholy. They themselves although part of the plan of God were not themselves part of the salvation plan of God when all was said and done. They were able to say that they knew the voice of God yet they were not of Him as their character and deeds would condemn them.

A heart must be found following God in a pure condition not following man. Those of Him understand that patriotism and nationalism in oneness is found favourable unto God only as HIS Holy nation through Jesus Christ. We are not of this world but are looking for a builder and maker whose city is Gods. Our possession is not of this world as it is built in the heart of man. Again, all who say they are Israel are not Israel and the New Jerusalem is built by the hand of God by the Spirit in the heart of man and it is THIS THAT shall not pass away. The religious and political structures of men shall pass away. The new dispensation of grace through Jesus Christ is built in truth and love.

An organization or political agenda to kill is manifest of the same spirit of any religious group or culture that is also taught the same and is not of God by His Character. Although some things must come to pass, you must determine personally who you will follow by your choices to be found in evil or good. John, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and many prophets wrote and it is understood that the destruction will come. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed and Noah saw only eight souls be saved. Though things must come to pass that the big picture be complete, one must be found with their heart in the right condition. God is serious about intent and motive. Pure and Holy without spot or blemish are His people that conform with true hearts in motive. Unrepentant violent do not inherit the Kingdom of God who have caused harm to man. It is the Spirit works that possess the land and Eternal Kingdom. The violence of this earth goes not without purpose. For in the enduring of earth’s tribulations and persecutions the refining of the true church is proven. Who they become and serve determine and expose whose Father they are of and what their outcome will be. Job was proven by satan and found saved by God for his righteousness and choosing not to sin against God.

Submission to the head of the Church which is Christ by choice of heart personify the character of God and do not kill in deed or in word for they are found in the Name that glorifies God. They are found in His character and endure to the end with pure hearts in love and truth according to Gods standard written and established. They watch and see the Word come to pass in every way. Both the good and the evil that God has known would come to pass that man know and choose whom He would serve.

It was violence that killed Jesus and it had to happen for the will of God to come to pass that man would have a chance through choice to be remitted of sin that they were born of and would conform to the character of Christ through the blood of the Lamb that was shed once. The Spiritual battle that was conquered and victorious made the way for the possession of the true church. God who created all things, who is all wisdom and knowledge who is written and established in Heaven, who knows all things, who always was, who raises and exalts and abases kingdoms and knows the heart of man from the foundation of time has written and said that all things must come to pass. Through the Son Jesus Christ all was accomplished at the cross that our hearts would be made pure and holy and bare his character and satan will be destroyed finally and totally.

In the violence of what man who was given over to the vile spirit of evil and was lead in evil intent to crucify the Lord and Saviour he was yet in the will of God and …good was brought forth that God made way that man would follow His way establishing that which Jesus Christ come to tell and fulfill that man would find themselves living eternally. Salvation was offered to all, even the vilest sinner who had taken part in the crucifixion of Christ. The truth now remains that only the pure in heart, the innocent, the gentle, the longsuffering will live eternally. Those that endure to the end through but not partaking of the wickedness of the sin and iniquity of this world that is driven by the evil intent of violence will come forth pure as gold, innocent. As Christ endured the beatings, the wickedness and endured the things that have to come to pass we also stand with longsuffering in the name of Jesus as we become the reflection of His essence manifest of God in His character in and through the winds of adversity and the fire of affliction come to refine our soul. We stand and say NO. NO to violence. We stand and we say God is love.

One must understand that violence will come to pass but they must not be found in it. There is a devil and the antichrist spirit will rise up in the last day and cause death but life is found for those in the ways of God that are Holy. Darkness is a tool to provoke man to turn to God. When known we know what darkness is and who God is and His Son who is light. Darkness is to be turned from and its evil ways and one must be found in Holiness, truth and love.

Those that are found in Him shall endure. The road is narrow. Nationalism patriotism, religiosity and the likes are structures that are built by man and shall not endure in the end. Prophets and Jesus spoke of them and warned against THEIR WORKS. Those that are built on the rock Christ Jesus whose hearts are conformed to the image of God through the son of God in the very character of God are those that are the New Jerusalem, are the ones whose heart God knows and is not an earthly kingdom built on the outside of man or God but In Him, a Spiritual kingdom.

This is the key to his government and lies upon the shoulder. Love of the brethren, the truth of the word who God is who is love, who is a spirit whose house He builds who only the pure shall inherit fully. Only the pure shall possess the heavenly kingdom, the lot of the levitical priesthood whose possession is Holy.

You stand and you see history. You stand and you see what comes to pass of what He has said. What was written and what God knows what would be. You stand and see the wickedness and evil intent and violence that is brought forth by mans desire to possess. A false peace without life eternal. The possession of earthly attainment shall pass away and only those who possess that what God establishes in the heart of man that his soul be Holy will be eternally manifest. God is Holy. He is the creator of evil of peace. In Him there is perfect purity. Darkness was created to provoke man that He would choice life and He would choose the way of Holiness therefore man would know what is good and what is evil. God is good. Satan from the beginning was used to seduce man into making choices that would be against the ways of God. In Jesus stated that what choices you make determine the Father in which you serve. Therefore exposing your own heart. He made it clear the ways of holiness and died that the Spirit would come to convict your soul and lead you that you would choose life. Those that are the sheep of God and elect of God would hear His voice and be given choice and what is within them would determine their eternal destiny. For the character of Christ must be built in man that he be justified and reconciled to God who is Holy.

So the purpose of man is to know Him, and conform to His image that they would be Holy. Man from the foundation of the world has been made and created that they would know God. And to each one is given a choice to follow. Within that purpose man determines His eternal destiny…whether He believes and follows or disbelieves and is separated from God. Violence will not enter the kingdom of heaven. . Only those that are found in love. Only those that are found fruitful. Only those found in the truth made way through the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ and His ways following Him in obedience by the Spirit according to the WORD.

In every dispensation man was required to follow what God desired. And now, this is the last day and we live in the new way. And we live the way that Jesus has determined for us as a fulfillment of Gods plan. Quite different from the law dispensation. Now you must choose life and you must worship Him in Spirit and in truth through relationship and walking in the Spirit. You must be born again and baptized and buried with Christ that your heart is circumcised by the blood of the Lamb.

Following this you will conform to the image of Christ and the Spirit will lead you so that you know what is right and what is wrong and you will not follow evil but you will know what is good and follow it. You will not choose the ways of violence. You will be brought to understanding that those that are put in leadership and leading that you follow them in their violent ways are evil masked as good from their teachings and false understanding not substantiated in character of God ALTHOUGH MAY BE IN THE WILL OF GOD as Judas. You will find that the ways of God are gentle and pure, forgiving, longsuffering and holy and as you choose them you choose your eternal destiny.

Division, debate and strife are born of the earthly soul born in nature unholy in sin and iniquity. Love peace and joy are born of the Spirit of the converted soul by the Holy Spirit of the Living God through Jesus Christ.

May your soul be found in the image of Christ for this is the church and this is He is coming for. This is who has been proven. This is whose heart He knows. Not an outside work, not an earthly organization, building or possession but a Spiritual house containing those things that are Holy that have been made Holy. That are found waiting for Him. There is no fear in God. For perfect love casteth out fear and gives confidence and knows God. We know that the earth will pass away. We know that there will be in the big picture destruction and tribulation in the last times and the last days and we know that it is the church of God that is built in the heart of man that will be enduring forever. Only those that choose the way of God and not the ways of man shall endure all the things and be proven of whom they serve and whom the are of.

Let not your heart condemn you. Be ye holy as God is Holy saith the Lord.

Jesus said He could have brought 10,000’s of angels to stop the violence that came against Him but He knew the will of God must come to pass. Be found in the will of God unto death in His character in righteousness unto Holiness. God is able to everything over every power and throne in this earth. Some things must come to pass and the hearts condition will determine your eternal destiny. Choose life. Repentance has been granted that man would pray and turn from His wicked ways that the land be healed. The possession of God is of the heart and must be found pure for it is from this the church is built and the full inheritance will be given to those found of Him. It is those He will say enter in thy good and faithful servant. It is those that He said many are called but few are CHOSEN. It is there from the church is built upon the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not all that say they are Israel are Israel for the church is built by the hand of God by the Spirit in the heart.

You ask yourself many times. You stand in the midst of it and asked , How can this be? You’re not wrong what you think in your heart regarding the violence of man. Follow on. The good shepherd calls you. Meet Him in that place that only you and He commune in intimacy. Walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. The community and communion of Christ is in the Spirit and not what man would think for all the things of this earth shall pass away. Every desire, every motive, everything that has been built, anything that has been done… We must be found in Him. Possess heavenly things.


Man stands and says He is a Christian but acts in violence. God is exposing the truth to you. Hear and understand and know the ways of God. He has opened up your blind eyes and allowed your heart to receive. You are knowing your God and His ways . Follow on now. Follow on in Peace. The peace He has left you. Not the peace that the world gives, but the peace of God through Jesus Christ. Follow Him. Be found in Him now and when He comes.


Darcia Sharp



I've been poking around your website - very interesting! But from everything I've been reading it would seem that GW Bush is the anti-christ (and seems more so with every passing day!). What do you think?


Hi Kirsten, Not so many years ago, I had thought that Richard Nixon could be the antichrist and if he ever rose from his political death, that would prove it. I have been a little more careful in my old age but you are right, the signs point all too clearly that the god he worships is actually the image of the beast and he will enforce worship and economic sanctions. Time will tell of course, as soon as he tries to get a seven year peace treaty in Israel, we should know. Until then, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for the input, I will be doing a piece on confronting the prophets of Ahab soon and this is a good addition, not many people bring this up.

Jay Atkinson

Hello everyone. This forum was set up to discuss and have a voice in what is seen as a problem in the Church, and to maybe come to a consensus on the problem, and go from there.

Many churches today including my church which is 2nd or 3rd in largeness in the Houston area is delivering a gospel that is laid on a foundation different than Jesus Christ, being obsessed by Messiah Bush and how he is fulfilling prophecy rather than my Lord, Savior, and God. Recently, I've listened in Sunday School classes and sermons from the pulpit with the focus being Bush.

2Cor. 11:4---' For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we [Paul/Apostles/disciples] have not preached or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted . . . . [NAS]

I feel my Lord is being short-changed in his own house by His own bride. I fail to empathasize with the religious right's ideal Christian. In the debates Bush accreditation to my Lord was that He [Jesus] was the world's greatest philosopher. Well, Jesus means much more than that to me. I fail to see Godly behavior in this man's actions. Each Friday morning he goes to his retreat, Camp David and returns Sunday afternoon to the White House if he's not flying around somewhere else on the week-end. Yet the religious right will tell you he attends church each Sunday. I'm no historian, but I don't recall any President of the United States before Bush who opened-up Ramadan, had the Muslin clerics in the White House during their celebration and went to the Mosque to close out this event. After the 9/11 carnage of 3,000 souls, Bush said the Muslim religion was a great religion giving this false religion a giant boost in growth: it is the fastest growing religion in America. To add additional honor to the Muslims, he had a Muslim cleric speaking is a foreign tongue at the Washington Cathedral memorializing the dead. Why Billy Graham participated leaves me in a daze.

Nowhere in my Bible do I read of David, a man after God's own heart, attending a Baal service or inviting a Baal priest to participate at a Jewish service. Certainly someone who had knowledge about false religions, its beliefs, its tenets: the Lord Jesus Christ never preached on false religions. The gospels are full of His sermons and conversations, especially the Gospel of John. Our Lord kept His focus on the things of God to people. Today in Church's pulpits and TV messages, pastors rattle on about the Koran and how they are studying the Koran while on the Lord's clock. We as a nation may have had our David---who but God can say if he really repented---but now we have our Solomon---an individual who has brought in foreign gods.

In 2 Corinthians 2:14, Paul minced no words about those who preached another Jesus. Pastors and teachers are utilizing the worshipper's time Sunday morning/evening and Wednesday prayer service preaching Messiah Bush, a different spirit and a very different gospel have crossed the line. These are people who reflect their culture---a religion different than the historical Jesus. They live unashamedly well off on the offerings of the congregation, while undermining the gospel and weakening the gospel message of salvation to the unbeliever and the edification and growth of the believer.

Messiah Bush sells well in our religious marketplace. But it is a false Gospel of another Jesus.

The history of the Church is filled with examples of those who preached a false Gospel of another Jesus. They cover up the cross after Bush invited them to the Texas capital to pray with him. They were bought with less than the Pharisee's and Sanhedrin bought off Judas. These persons are ignoring the Jesus who is revealed in the Scriptures, the historical Son of God born into this world, crucified, and risen from the dead. Instead, they have created another Jesus in their own image saying Bush is a tool of God fulfilling prophecy, or sermons/lectures about war protests, or teachings of Koran rather than the Scriptures and the Gospel message of my Lord.

In Christ, timothy.

Go brother,

I agree. Eventhough I have not had to listen to it from the pulpit, I hear always that Bush is praying and attending church and how saved he is. But then I see him come on TV and say that Musilms are christians. And place the Koran next to the Bible and other things. I am not judging his salvation only questioning too why he is being preached among the brethren in the quiet places. He says he repented and thats between him and God. I pray for the leaders of the country. But to preach his prophecy fulfillment from the pulpit or even amongst the brethren is just wrong. And everytime America goes in to battle with someone its always "fulfilling the prophecy..." Its like people read Mathew 24:6 and completely miss the last 6 words. And all the signs that they look to are the signs that have all been fulfilled in times past. How do you think people felt in the civil war when it was brother against brother and father against son and 2 were in the field and one was taken.

The only thing I can say to these people who spew these waters from their mouth is that An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. By seeking after signs that in itself is rejecting Christ. It is up to us, the true church, to go to the prisoners and expose the fasle prophets and to tell them if they are looking for wisdom they need to look for Christ, if they are looking for power then also look for Christ. They must stop looking for an anitchrist. Why would they want an antichrist when they could have the real one. The only one world ruler that anyone is ever going to see is Christ ruling God's kingdom. All God has ever wanted for us is to love Him. He wanted to be the King of the Israelites but they rejected Him so God gave them Saul. But now He has established Christ as the King forever and if we, the church, reject him then there is no hope for the world that God so loved.


Hey Tim and All,

I hear you brother.
I feel you there.....
I had a strong urge to add a bit over here.
I do agree with you about the Strange Gospel thing. Its prevalent everywhere. Not only Gospel but there is Strange Christianity as well NOT Extreme Christianity.

BUT GOOD NEWS is that TIME is coming SOON. In my last posting the message under the Holy Spirit talks about Hypocrisy and wolves in sheeps' clothings. TIME is coming SOON when we will soon find out about these wolves. Their days are numbered. The goats and the sheep will also separated. There will be clear distinction between these two. God is bringing His true children together. True children are those who live the true Gospel given by Jesus. And who will easily identify the strange Gospel. Those are His true children who truely love their Father. And Father is bringing them together. Its about TIME now.

And I am not judging anybody here. Telling the truth is far from judging. And what I strongly feel is President George Bush is not one of them. Its sad reality. Is not it? When almost whole world [dont know the exact figure but many ] recognize him as a Christian but in reality he is not. He is not a true child. And it will be found out soon. TIME will tell. I am telling again I am in no way judging President Bush but its simply the TRUTH.

Guess thats it for now....
Just wanted to share my heart on this......
Take Care All.....
Love You All......
Please continue to pray for Chrisitian Unity and to those who are lost...

By His Grace,

Hi Tim,

Well I stand with Paul and Montou in agreeing with you here. Knowing that the Lord is taking us into the area of confronting the prophets of Baal, this is right on time.

I understand that most people will be keeping silent on this, even the ones that that agree but here is what I believe:

Most of the Christians in America that pray in the name of Jesus are actually praying to the image of the beast. That would of course only be possible if America is one of the heads of the beast and worshiped as God. If you have been on my site you know exactly where I stand on that, the United States is revealed in prophecy as the Eagle.

Saddam may be the prince of Persia mentioned in Daniel. What is alluded to in prophecy is that God stirs up the Medes to execute God's judgment on Babylon.

America will not be repenting of their sins and the judgment will cause intense turmoil from within and without.

And much more that I am sure will be coming out if we are to discuss this further.

It takes guts to go with this Tim and everyone. But I feel that we are up to it.


Hello Montou, Paul and Jay---and not to forget Angel.

Thanks for seeing certain aspects from the Strange Gospel post. I really didn't know if I was a voice alone crying in the wilderness, or if I still had things in common with men. I see I have not been excluded but am still a part of the remnant, the brethren, from seeing just a few things from my Church. A common experience of sorts, if you will. I consider myself a patriot, at least I was not missing for 13 months, and the people at my church say all the time; we should pray for our President. And when I tell them the truth that I have never prayed as much and about, and for, a President as much as I have for Bush, they just have a blank stare as if my words do not register, and I'm from another planet.

This is my present day Elijah Syndrome---I cannot continue in listening to what I hear. It is as if they believe anything the poles say, hook, line and sinker. We live in a society that the beast is sure trying to manipulate. I am blessed and glad to have been born when I was, and taught to think for myself.

It does my heart good to know that most must not be experiencing these things in church. And as usual thanks for listening and being my friends.


Hi Tim,

Remember what Paul Weigel was sharing the other week? Being from Canada and insulated from all the American Christian radio broadcasts, he couldn't believe what they were teaching on the radio. I know just what he means with all the money grubbing and right wing political rhetoric that I am hearing on "Christian" radio today. That same right wing insanity is being preached from the pulpits. I think that it would be better if more people in the church are experiencing what you are experiencing.

Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world.


Hi Tim

You must speak what the Spirit tells you to, people are so easily deceived right now, we want something to hope in so bad that we tend to believe anything. Little lies, little deceptions add up to big ones. Some people don't even realize what's going on. It says that even the most elect could be decieved Mark 13:22,23 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. - What does that mean? That the chosen the favored of God could be blind-sided - We know that God is in control that He put Bush in office or he wouldn't be there, but it is to accomplish God's own purposes, but Bush should not be exalted in any way - only Jesus Saves and gives us peace and hope, the days are evil we must keep watch, the churches are not down on their knees, fasting and praying and seeking God or there would be major repentance going on right now. We have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. but we must help each other get there. We have no time to give into the flesh. There is no condemnation in Christ -only righteous judgment -let each man's work be judged. We must be about the Father's business, whether anyone agrees or not. So don't give in, just be obedient.

Phil 4:7
"And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."


Hi Angel,

Yes, this is the way we should be right now and that is to keep all possibilities open but spiritually aware that so many Christians are blind-sided. I also agree with Tim about President Bush, that does not make our estimation of him right any more than the other man that holds him as some kind of anointed super-christian. For myself, I saw through Bush during his campaign. I did not believe his right wing Christian rhetoric but then it is not for me to judge either. I merely believe that Bush rode upon Babylon to get elected, that is my own opinion. Most of us understand that although the spirit of antichrist has been with us from the beginning, we have also told that there is an Antichrist to come, called the beast in revelation aside the false prophet. This is the question. Is he or isn't he? Time will tell.

Do a search on -Bush and antichrist- and we can see that this seems to be the topic of the hour.

I have to realize that as I may be confronting the prophets of Ahab, I seem to be shying away from saying much specific. Sometimes I am curious to see just what I will think and say next. Doesn't inspire much confidence in a method to my madness, does it.


Hi Jay, hi all!!!

I wanted to do some research on this myself, so jay could you give me some insite on where you got your information on this to have to thoughts you have for him? I have not gone through the Latterrain site to search for it, I kinda get lost in there at times...

I really love the information if you could...
talk to you guys later...


Hi Krissy,

Actually I could direct you to perhaps a hundred of pages on my site that illustrate where I get my insight on these things. In a nutshell, I realized years ago that the rose colored glasses that Americans wear concerning how they feel about their country has blinded most of them to the truth and God has sent them a strong delusion. I studied the economic oppression toward third world countries, the multi-national exploitation and imperialism, the military intervention when our economic interests are threatened, the interference with the affairs of foreign governments, the murder of government leaders and then replacing them with totalitarian regimes that are favorable to the U.S. These things are public knowledge to anyone wishing to seek them out. The church has pretty much blinded Christians to these truths and they are far from repentance.

There are many more examples that I have not given on my site but the latter rain page is too varied to focus on the one issue of America's sins and the nature of the beast. Personally I would rather focus on how we are supposed to act instead of condemning where we have acted wrong but it is very important that we are exposed to the sins of America as well as its great spiritual heritage.

Have any of you seen the new movie "Bowling for Columbine?" Best movie I have seen in a long time. It gives some good examples for research.

Another great example to start with if you want to do research is to study how President Salvador Allende of Chili was assassinated and how the dictator Pinochet replaced him. It is all public record but not something that our ultra-conservative media (did I say conservative media?), yes, how they report political news. The American media is advertiser supported so you won't get the whole truth because of the conflict of interest. You maybe won't find the whole truth anywhere but most unbiased world news is found only on public radio, PBS and the BBC.


Wow, alot of insight on this one...I guess if I would study some, (really I don't know where to get all this info though.), but I do agree and can't seem to understand why we support all these countries anyway, and personally it seems to me that it's all about politics and money.. I wonder what would happen if Bush would confess Jesus in public? There is a change of speech as the years go on, like they speak in the 3rd person or something. As he quoted 23rd Palms over and over again, he should have added that he trusts in only one God and that is Jesus, but some other denominations like the one I used to be in was Lutheran, back then I never new of the living Christ, the "grown up Christ", because we only went on the holidays and a few sundays, so either He was being re-born every year.... dying and raising all the time... gosh, what a mess, and then when I prayed a prayer, back in 1990 it's like He was grown up...(silly huh?).

But I don't understand why he says things and doesn't say things, ya know? I thought he would when he got elected, but anyway... I have also listened to NPR, and they are pretty vocal, and the media only lets you see what they want you to see, I think personally that's why we only see mostly the sad stuff, because they think america wants that kind of stuff, but we know better....

Thanks so much for your insight and I will try to get info on these kind of things so I'm not so uneducated about it...

thanks Jay!!!

Krissy, I agree with your insight on all of this. There are "hidden" agendas that we may not know about, but can guess. I respect (or honor) our President for his official capacity, but I think he's speaking "with a forked tongue". Well, we'll just have to wait and see, and in the meantime, pray for God's will to be done. Which it will.


Hi Krissy,

Saddam Hussein is a good example. The United States had no problem with Iraq or Hussein for a long time. When he invaded Iran in the eighties, he was suddenly a good friend and an ally and we gave him the weapons of mass destruction to kill our enemies. A lot of weapons. When he turned those weapons on the Kurds and tried to wipe them out, nothing was said because it was not America's problem. When Hussein invaded Kuwait, it was a different story. He was now taking over the oil fields and threatening our economic interests, now it was a "just cause" to take him out and "liberate" the people. As soon as we got the oil back, we left.

President Bush has confessed Jesus in public, I merely think that it is not the real Jesus but a false one in order to get elected. It is only my opinion of course. I believe that the god that he calls Jesus is the image of the beast. I am not the only one that feels that way but it seems so at times.


Hello Jay. Not many people know this but Donald Runsfeld [or however you spell it] was in Iraq at the time of the Iraq/Iranian war, and before the Iraqies ever gased the Iranieans; the Iraqies asked Runsfeld what he thought since he was there, if they should use gas on Iran. And he said that he thought it was a good idea.

One of the reasons we went in to Iraq supposedly was because of this kind of behavior. Thought I would pass it along.


Typical for sure Tim. I wrote an article some time back on Saddam Hussein that is no longer on my site. I got published on another site, probably as a bad example but anyway a lady wrote back at me and said "Only problem is, WE and the other countries did not use the weapons of mass destructions against our own people. Saddam did."

Can you hear the double standard here? It is OK to kill other people as long as it is not our own people. That's the nature of the beast for sure. As long as Christians try to justify war from America because they believe that God is on our side, they are worshiping the image of the beast.


"I came to the conclusion that all the values that made me admire the American people were beeing eroded by the covert operations of the CIA and kindred secret bodies... Time after time the United States has generously aided other countries threatened by famine or disaster. The survival of this great tradition is of importance, not only to Americans, but also to all freedom loving people in the world. But in my view, the survival of this great is now being gravely threatened by the covert criminal actions of the Central Intelligence Agency and its associated services. If the United States is to be protected from this grave danger, it is essential that the activities of this secret agency should be fully exposed to the people of the United States.

...I am a fierce believer in the democratic system of governments. Among the democracies, the constitution of the United States can be, and has proved to be, a bastion of civil liberty.

However, democracy and the rule of law could not survive side by side with a state agency that engages in covert operations ranging from assassinations to levying mercenary armies. Even if there is, now, an attempt beeing made by some to check the activities of the CIA and the other United States intelligence agencies, the whole concept of a secret government and army within a government is a menace to the democratic system." (Sean MacBride, former Foreign Minister of Ireland, and 1974 Nobel Peace Prize recipient; died 1988)


"This is not a military defense of Iraq against an invading army. This is the creation of another layer in this mythology of victimhood, which has been developed in the Arab world for at least the last three generations. ... The view is that everything evil comes from outside, from somewhere else." (Gwyn Prins in an interview March/April 2003)


While our fellow citizens fight in Iraq for the good, a consistent but accelerating danger lurks in the shadow, ready to overtake and turn upside down our values: Corporate Fascism !

Patty Crazon

Hello all,

And on this same note...while we were backing Iraq in their war with Iran if you will remember we were selling arms to Iran at the same time we were supplying Iraq. Iran contra affair. We fed the whole war. And when Saddam found this out is when his hatred for america began.

Keeping in Unity,

Thanks for the reminder Paul.

The Iran/Contra affair is another supreme example of the nature of the beast. While we were secretly trading arms for drugs and funding the death squads in Central America to kill nuns and priests, Oliver North was giving credit to God for the privilege. Right wing Christians still consider him a hero, not a criminal.

Tim and all, you may not agree with this, but I got it from a preacher in Colo. I want you all to know I respect our government officials because of the office they hold, but not necessarily personally!! Here's what I am quoting".

"President Bush was burning to go to war. So we are there. Despite all the opposition to the war among the populace that the Anti'Christian media has reported on. The war Bush wanted is now taking place in the very land the tower of babel was built. the KJ translation calls it the "land of Shinar"(Gen. 11:2) and the Farrar Fenton translation translates it "The Bush-land". The bible tells us that the tower builders used "tar for mortar" (Gen. 11:3) and the Hebrew word for "tar" means "bitumen, asphalt". Ferrar Fenton translates it " petroleum".

So, I'll leave all this up to your judgement; not that we can do anything about it.


Hi Jay and all,

Haven't had too much energy lately to contribute on this subject, but thought I would register my thoughts and glad to be in such good company.

Just been listening to the news and the reactions to the Iraq officials claims that they have everything under control. It does seem laughable, knowing what we know, that they might think they were in with some sort of a chance. Tragic that the people of Iraq might believe that it is the case.

The nature of the real enemy is lie and untruth and deception. The devil wants to kill, steal, destroy. Saddam Hussein is small fry in the deception game in world terms but we are happy to identify him as the big threat all the time he lies so overtly.

Much more deeply unsettling, and fundamentally destructive is the advance of deception beneath the polished countenance of world powers bent on a popular "good cause" like this. Dangerous for Christians to swallow the lie that this war is just as simple as that. It is the function of politics to convince us of such a shallow view. Anything else would erode the power structure from within.

Has a war ever been perpetrated in history without the shed blood of innocents, and without some eyes first fixed upon a spoil of increased power, increased wealth, increased resources? I think not. You haven't got to be a Bible expert to see that this is not God's way.

Love from mary

Thanks Mary,

Deception seems to be the watchword on all sides. I hopped on my computer today after being gone yesterday to a conference and boy did I get a lot of prophetic junk mail waiting for me. I get junk mail all the time but this is the first time I have used the phrase in connection to the prophetic.

Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, He is the one that told us that. But look at all the prophets acting like He needs the help of so-called Christian nations to fight His battles for Him. God is setting the stage but the players are off on their own without a clue as to what the script is. I really get a laugh out of people that shout at me in all capital letters when they try to make a stupid point in e-mail. When it gets really stupid, some of them go to the trouble of making the letters bold and the print larger. All with their special agendas and axes to grind. The more stupid the argument, the bigger the letters and the more caps.

I know how I am supposed to act but I get really rebellious sometimes and it is hard for me to act right. Oh no Lord, you can't possibly want me to love that person too? All the false authority and self-willed notions about everything. Yes He does want me to love them but it is really hard when they rise up to me with all their pride and showing the mark of the beast like many Christians are doing today. All I can do is try to ignore them and pray that the Lord will lift the delusions. Jesus taught us that we are not to concern ourselves when we hear of wars and rumors of wars but these people act like it is their own special cause and their own special religious victories.

When will Christians finally wise up and understand that God is in control, not national leaders or armies or political agendas or worldly special interests and imperialistic vendettas. Soon I hope, I want Jesus to come quickly. I am tired of people shouting at me as if they have all the truth.


Hello one and all. To me the first beast is symbolizing the hostile political world power where the leaders are vassals of Satan. And a form of worshiping the Antichrist could be--- don't be saying anything bad about them. Pressure will come on the entire population to receive the symbol of allegiance to the first beast. As far as a visible or invisible mark, it will be visible to the point of recognition for all in subjugation to the beast. Difficulty in acquiring the necessities of life will be a tool and nagging harassment at the hand of the dragon-sponsored regime, to the faithful for their loyalty to the Lamb.

From what I have discerned of the rest of Revelation , is that I would not want to be caught with the mark of the beast. God's children will be given God's own self in order to overcome and have victory and deliverance from the temptation to worship---put anything before Christ---the beast's image and receive his mark. It will be better to suffer temptation than to suffer what those who receive the mark will be suffering. I have noticed that there is a lot of similarities between the Israelites who remained untouched by the Egyptian plagues.

The outcome of the struggle should never be in doubt. He could only deceive those who agree to accept the mark of the beast and worship the beasts image [that could mean simply in thinking he is the cat's meow]. The worship of the beast will be a public action.

One thing for sure is that the final world empire will be under the control of Satan and the beast. When we read history and watch the course of this world, that is exactly what God has said and what God has done. We are not to think that God is peculiarly different here in the Revelation. The great, eternal, spiritual principles by which God directs history and destiny are no different in the Revelation from what they were yesterday, or will be tomorrow, or are today. We can follow these things in the history books. We can read these things in the daily newspapers. God is ever true to the great principles by which He governs the world. We can herein follow the work of God as it is projected out to the intervention of Christ, it is no appearing from God that destroys this scarlet whore. Men do it. That inevitable prospect, God says, shall be a development in human history. And when John saw it he said 'And I wondered with a great wonder. "Spiritual whoredom."

Now, pick up your Bible and turn to 1 John, a letter written by the same author who wrote Revelation. 1John 5:21 ; This is the earnest, last admonition of the seer. He has said nothing about idolatry in this entire little book, but look at the last verse: 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols.' Amen, amen. For the worship of God is spiritual. God desires that those who worship Him shall worship Him in spirit and in truth. It is between you and your soul with no mediating priest in between. It is between you and God for yourself. Talk to Him for yourself, confess to Him your sin. He alone can forgive us. Give your heart and life to the blessed Jesus. Walk by His side. Be filled with the glory of His presence. Love your Lord in spirit and truth, for God seeks such to worship Him. 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols.' Amen. This is the Word and the Revelation to our souls.

In Christ. timothy.

Would you consider updating your site to take into consideration the thoughts of many that President George W. Bush is the new spiritual leaders of America? Also, you might mention his deference toward the wealthy and his doctrine of military and economic domination of the world starting, ironically (or not), in the land of ancient Babylon. It can't be coincidence that two of his top military advisors are hard-core Zionists either.


Hi John,

I had a page denouncing what I perceived was false about President Bush and took it down after 911. I figured that it wasn't time yet and still don't. Time will tell if he is the Antichrist or not, we have discussed it in our group, many think he is, some see through him and his right wing political stand and world domination. As for myself, I will doing a piece on confronting the prophets of Ahab soon but it isn't quite worked out yet.

Thanks for asking.


This point has so much interest to our generation that it demands a separate consideration. We have always seen a world at war, and even now it is very incompletely pacified. Dissensions, quarrels, contendings, and even wars are not likely soon to cease. And, as a matter of fact, no one will venture to argue---even after these thousands of years of wrong---that we are yet within sight of the time when all quarrels [international, national, domestic, or social] shall be at an end, when the law-courts shall be abolished, and when they shall not 'learn war' no more. Yet force is not the supreme law of Christ's kingdom, and material war---war on the physical plane---is contrary to the spirit of His rule. The testimony of His warriors, the inscription on their banner, will always be 'The love of Christ constraineth,' not 'the sword of the Lord and of Gideon.'

All war is a filthy business. I utterly and entirely dissent from the view that there is something essentially uplifting in war as war. Every normal human being must dread, loathe, and detest war, for if it reveals some things that savor of heaven it reveals more that reek of hell. See what the glorification of war has done for any nation. It is only a matter of history. For as sure as you get a nation mastered by the monster of militarism, a nation in which everything else in administration is subordinated to militaristic ideals, you get a Government without sentiment, without humanity, without respect for the ordinary obligations of truth and honor.

If we want to fight for God we have to fight war. We are not expected to fall upon the neck of every person we meet, or to proclaim ourselves bosom friends at the first sight of every acquaintance. We are not asked to believe that we have no enemies. But we can repress hostile feelings by definite goodwill. Unless we have utterly given place to the devil, we must wish everyone well, even when they have done us wrong; for repentance can come to those who have injured us only when they have become better persons. This goodwill, as a persistent orientation of soul, is a creative sentiment, and it means sweetening our own hearts as well as sweetening others. We who want to end war need to ask ourselves whether in our personal relationships we act as a unifying or disintegrating force; whether we have the effect of making friends or multiplying enemies. We ought to be concerned about any misunderstanding, rupture of intimacy, or drift towards hostility We must go on fighting when we have won peace.---This sounds a little paradoxical, but it is not. We are to stop war between nations: but we can never stop fighting. A battlefield is the scene of deeds of self-sacrifice so transcendent, and at the same time so dramatic, that, in spite of all its horrors and crimes, it awakens the most passionate moral enthusiasm. Is there no other way of arousing this moral enthusiasm, no other way of evoking to the same degree the spirit of self-sacrifice? Yes, if civilization as a whole could rise to the moral level requisite for it. The one great thing which modern civilization has yet to do is to find a moral substitute for war, an incentive to action that would bring out the grandest qualities of human nature without the accompaniment of slaughter and the suffering and anguish that follow in its train.

We want a trained and disciplined people; a muscular, full-blooded, and courageous people; a people that can use its weapons and aim straight. But---and here the whole question comes---are the only weapons guns and bayonets? When we are taught to aim straight, shall the only target be the bodies of our fellow-men? Are not the digging implement and plough as good for human handling as sword and gun? Aim skillfully with them at God's good earth, and the results, in turning wildernesses into fruitful fields, are surely as good as the maiming of limbs and the beating out of brains! Does not Nature offer us a field for all our courage and all our skill? To tunnel her mountains, drain her swamps, combat her diseases, explore her unknown territories; to become masters of her sea and land, of her heights above and depths beneath; to wring from her those jealously guarded secrets which, once disclosed, will make man as what God wills---is there not enough in this Instead of the conscripts of slaughter let us have the conscripts of industry, the conscripts of human development. The militarists are right in demanding national organization, a training system which lets no individual escape. But let us have the right training and for the right objects. In previous ages man has been marvelously industrious and marvelously brave in the business of making his brother man miserable. We want now all that industry and all that courage in making him happy. After his ages of madness let him begin his period of sanity. After placing his valor, his civilization, his religion so long at the devil's service, let him, for a change, place these crowns at the feet of Jesus.

In Christ, timothy.

Jay, you mentioned christians showing the mark of the beast. Don't mean to be unlearned here but I guess I must admit I must be. Isn't the mark of the beast a physical mark person will take that accept the anti-christ. Now be kind, I'm still learning.

In Yeshua, My Saviour,



I've been reading the last several posts, since I'm new here, to kind of get a feel for the group. To openly say President Bush is not a Christian and is serving a false christ is a hard thing to suggest and to recieve. To have a President that even ackowleges Christ is more then a comfort to me. Sure I wonder alot with all thats happening, especially right now but don't forget God sets up and tears down govenments for his purpose. America is certainly not a godly society but neither is Iraq or the murders of 9/11. Maybe, just maybe God is now judging both nations. I see through a glass darkly as do the saintly of saints. As for me I will continue to pray for President Bush, our leaders the arabs and the Peace of Jerusulem. I know our God is in control, and although seeing the suffering is painful I can only grip my hope the more.

Shalom, tTt


Hello, I am also new to the group and have been reading the posts. I am in agreement with you. I have to believe that God is in control. I believe the Word when it says to pray for those in authority. There's not one thing that misses our Lord and so I have to trust in and rely on Him. Blessings, Cherry

Hi Steve,

Only time will tell but I don't believe in a physical mark of the beast, it is in the forehead, not on it. The idea of an implant of a computer chip or bar code or a 666 tattooed on our forehead is just too fantastic for me. When it comes, it will be to those under a delusion, not a conscious absolute confirmation of what is happening and a revelation of who they are getting it from. It will be subtle and I believe that many have taken the mark already.


Hello to everyone

Welcome to Steve looking forward to sharing with you.

Jay - I have looked up about alot of things on the antichrist etc but the other day after you suggested looking up Bush and antichrist I came across this email site I had never seen it before -


Read it over and let me know what you think, ok

In His Love


Hi Angel,

Prince William is the anti-christ. I checked over that site, formerly called King Arthur is the antichrist. To me, it is a joke, but all kinds of things are taken seriously. Anyway that is my point exactly. To say that Bush is the antichrist is the same as saying that Nixon was the antichrist 30 years ago, Bill Gates has been identified digitally and of course people were saying that the Pope is the antichrist and even Saddam.

Personally I believe that Bush fits the profile but that is not enough to go around accusing him. At least not yet. If he is and the popularity, peace and prosperity that he will do is part of that, only time will tell.


Hi Peg and everyone,

I am getting back from being away with church and family most of the day and find all these posts waiting for me. Obviously I agree with a war free zone and I also agree that we should discuss things in love and humility. Targeting people is not my style though, I would rather target the attitudes themselves than those with an attitude. What we are discussing is of course a controversial topic. I revel in that and love it knowing that this is the kind of dialogue that the Lord in His mercy will spark the kind of passion that gets people excited enough to speak their mind. With that love and humility and the mutual respect that we can have for another person's opinion, the Lord can deal with us through His spirit for us to come to one accord.

It doesn't matter what we believe about the mark of the beast, if any one of us is under a delusion however, it does matter that we shake it off. Anyone that we believe is under a delusion will as a matter of course believe that we are under a delusion so only dialogue will expose it . What I see too many times is prideful people accusing others that they do not agree with of pride, misled people accusing others of being misled. These things can be put away but not without that respect that lifts each other up long enough to bring things out into the open.

As far as defending myself for saying that Bush was not a Christian, I don't remember ever saying that. I do remember saying something like that the Jesus he confesses is the image of the beast but there are too many Christians that think just the same as he does for me to ever accuse anyone of not being a Christian. Only God is the judge of that. I also remember saying that this is my own opinion, I don't feel I should have to defend myself for that since I frankly admit that I could be way off base.


Hi Jay,

Apologies, I was doing more thinking than writing and also forgot to change the subject. It was with regard to the mark and worship of the image of the beast that I raised the matter of "Truth", because you said that some had already taken the mark, and considering how that outworked practically for identification purposes. None of us wants to believe a lie but all of us needs to accept the possibility that we might be doing that, otherwise we won't be able to shake off the delusion if it is us.

I was thinking that, at some point in those peoples' history there would have been a departure from the Truth followed by a consistent opposition or resistance to it, so that "the lie" instead was already incorporated into the spiritual intellect, the mind remaining unrenewed, the mark of the beast already accepted. This speaks to me of the lukewarm church which has turned away from the power of the Gospel and chosen to dwell in sin and pallid faith, preaching a cross-free message. So since they have chosen the way which denies the truth (showing that they loved not the truth) God sends them a strong delusion so that they become fully convinced that they have the truth. So the Jesus they worship is a false Jesus. One who speaks contrary to the Word. I was also thinking that there would be an absence of genuine spiritual fruit...the separation of the sheep and goats was according to what they did and didn't do.

Am I hearing you better?

Love, Mary

Hello everyone:

This is in relationship to the opinion of some Christians that the antiChrist is going to come from Rome. That may or may not be true. However, it appears to me that I am the only Catholic in this group. Therefore, I am going to take issue with that. I am not going to try to change anyone's mind regarding their opinions and beliefs about us Christians who are Catholics. However, I will voice the fact that I humbly believe that Satan is behind all of the confusion, chaos, havoc, misunderstandings and misinformation among all Christian believers. Those of you who would like to choose and to read books about us and our beliefs may visit my web site and Just Catholic Web Directory web site by clicking on the links below.

I will share with you that I converted to Catholicism when I was thirteen years old. I have left the Catholic Church on a couple of occasions; yet I could never fit in with any of the Protestant churches I visited. I always came back to my home Church. Again if you would like to know more about us and our beliefs you are perfectly welcome to visit : Unity Builders For Christ, Inc.

Thanks Stella,

And you are absolutely right. The idea of the Anti-christ coming from Rome comes from Protestants that are still protesting and they are merely taught that way. It wasn't true during the reformation when it started and it isn't true today. That kind of thinking is easy to overcome when the spirit of truth is given in love. There are a lot of Catholic haters as well as Protestant haters and Pentecostal haters and all kind of haters throwing out this old school type of thinking. What needs to be done for many people is to unlearn what they have been taught by all the people that cannot come to love us like the Lord would have us do. There needs to be forgiveness, but above all repentance for the hatred that has been perpetuated in the church for so many centuries from people on all sides.

The Roman Church does not have the economic, political or the military clout to be the type of entity to pull off what will be going on in these last days. I believe that there will be a type of a revived Rome however that will use the eagle as its insignia that will be more of a type of the old Roman Empire, not the present Catholic Church.


Hello one and all. To me the first beast is symbolizing the hostile political world power where the leaders are vassals of Satan. And a form of worshiping the Antichrist could be--- don't be saying anything bad about them. Pressure will come on the entire population to receive the symbol of allegiance to the first beast. As far as a visible or invisible mark, it will be visible to the point of recognition for all in subjugation to the beast. Difficulty in acquiring the necessities of life will be a tool and nagging harassment at the hand of the dragon-sponsored regime, to the faithful for their loyalty to the Lamb.

From what I have discerned of the rest of Revelation , is that I would not want to be caught with the mark of the beast. God's children will be given God's own self in order to overcome and have victory and deliverance from the temptation to worship---put anything before Christ---the beast's image and receive his mark. It will be better to suffer temptation than to suffer what those who receive the mark will be suffering. I have noticed that there is a lot of similarities between the Israelites who remained untouched by the Egyptian plagues.

The outcome of the struggle should never be in doubt. He could only deceive those who agree to accept the mark of the beast and worship the beasts image [that could mean simply in thinking he is the cat's meow]. The worship of the beast will be a public action.

One thing for sure is that the final world empire will be under the control of Satan and the beast. When we read history and watch the course of this world, that is exactly what God has said and what God has done. We are not to think that God is peculiarly different here in the Revelation. The great, eternal, spiritual principles by which God directs history and destiny are no different in the Revelation from what they were yesterday, or will be tomorrow, or are today. We can follow these things in the history books. We can read these things in the daily newspapers. God is ever true to the great principles by which He governs the world. We can herein follow the work of God as it is projected out to the intervention of Christ, it is no appearing from God that destroys this scarlet whore. Men do it. That inevitable prospect, God says, shall be a development in human history. And when John saw it he said 'And I wondered with a great wonder. "Spiritual whoredom."

Now, pick up your Bible and turn to 1 John, a letter written by the same author who wrote Revelation. 1John 5:21 ; This is the earnest, last admonition of the seer. He has said nothing about idolatry in this entire little book, but look at the last verse: 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols.' Amen, amen. For the worship of God is spiritual. God desires that those who worship Him shall worship Him in spirit and in truth. It is between you and your soul with no mediating priest in between. It is between you and God for yourself. Talk to Him for yourself, confess to Him your sin. He alone can forgive us. Give your heart and life to the blessed Jesus. Walk by His side. Be filled with the glory of His presence. Love your Lord in spirit and truth, for God seeks such to worship Him. 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols.' Amen. This is the Word and the Revelation to our souls.

In Christ. timothy.

Hi Jay and my other Brothers and Sisters at Light Ship.

Until this recent Middle East campaign, I kept my eyes shut to world politics and convinced myself that this was okay, because I was so overwhelmed with the long adjustment to a major life change and the hard work that goes into running a business and raising a large family. The business has been my hole in the ground where I've been conveniently hiding my ostrich head, and I say that now with regret and remorse.

The Spirit has been waking me up to an awareness of the coming New World Order and some of the key players. The goal of the Spirit is not to alarm, but to prepare for ministry to other women as the events draw near. Mary and I have had some recent sharing to validate the Spirit's purpose for a fresh anointing in our lives and our sister's lives around the world throughout the entire Body of Christ. I know without a doubt that what the Spirit is doing is related to current events and our preparation for withstanding the mass deception that is in process.

The reason I'm addressing you in particular, Jay, is that a part of my waking up had to do with some things you said about President Bush a short while ago. Just want you to know, I have done my own homework and am come into agreement with you and others who are saying the same thing. Thanks for blowing the trumpet for me.

Appreciate You,

Hi Peg,

The messages that are concerning the church and Babylon are piling up right now waiting for an appropriate response from me but are still sitting there while I look for other things to do. I may never answer them, even as good as they are and even in agreement because I do not feel an anointing from the spirit to act, only another chore to do out of respect for those I love. I have thought of answering them one by one, giving them the thankful credit they deserve but they still sit. This message from you deserves a quick reply because it is so dear to my heart and spirit, so timely, and in a way, answers all the rest at once. This "awareness" that you feel is nothing more than the lifting of the delusion and in getting out of that Babylonian mindset; only if we are not deluded ourselves that is, and I do not think that we are.

I should probably start by clarifying what I believe. It is real easy to answer sensitive subjects like this with cryptic responses and hide our true emotions out of the fear of rejection and retaliation so your letter gives me some courage to speak out. Thanks for that, I recognized your ability to be sensitive to the spirit from your first post. What we are really doing here is denouncing Babylon, the church and the image of the beast. Only time will tell however, but if we are right, others need to be blowing the trumpet too. What is being done here is in effect, attacking what many people believe is their god and if understood correctly answers the question of the relationship between the church and Babylon. Also we fear of being accused of being unpatriotic, which is really the same thing in this case.

Yes, I believe that President Bush is setting the stage for the New World Order and that the worship of the god of Americanism is the image of the beast. I believe that it has been in motion for a long time now; it has come from Republicans and Democrats and led by the spirit of mammon and global domination. Our problems have been sanctioned by the "church" as God's judgment upon an unbelieving world instead God's judgment upon America for allowing our country to be the most immoral, oppressive, hateful, violent, hedonistic society in history. I remember someone, maybe Billie Graham's daughter saying, that if God does not judge America, He owes Sodom and Gomorrah a big apology.

America has for a long time been displaying the nature of the beast and is now time and has been for Babylon to be judged and God's people to get out of her. Babylon is not the institutional church but the institutional church is being held captive. What Babylon is, is a mindset and cannot be disassociated from the beast, it is not merely religious as inside the four walls of a church or denominational institution, but economic and political as well and has to do with the worship of the image that comes from the delusion.

It is hard to understand who Babylon is because of the mystery attached to her but the more that we are able to recognize the image of the beast, the New World Order, the imperialistic oppression and military intervention merely to protect our economic interests, this delusion is lifted, the mindset is shaken off and we get out of Babylon. It is not in the physical leaving of church buildings, it is in the spiritual attitude of who is actually worshiped - the God that brings us together through repentance, humility and unity in spirit and truth or the god that brings us together through the delusion of standing united under a religious political entity and pride in a this-worldly kingdom bent on world domination.

To me, this issue is clear but a delusion sent by God for believing a lie is hard to shake. We had discussed this briefly before and I was disappointed that it was not carried further. All the while however, I know that God will give us the right time to sound this trumpet. It does have to be the right time though. Otherwise we sound like paranoid kooks. Not to worry. It is better to lose our head for the truth than nonsense.


Hi Peg, Jay and all,

Having a sleepless night because of the beginning of this interchange so I am up before 5 a.m. trying to figure out whether I should cop in to this or not. If fear of accusation of being unpatriotic would prevent the American brethren on this list from contributing, I wonder what it is for those of us in the rest of the world, who would want to say something similar. It is like, you might be critical of your natural sister's behaviour, but perhaps would not take kindly to someone outside the family doing the same thing. You see my point.

But though this as you rightly say sensitive issue concerns America "big time" as they say, because of the political and economic aspects, it wants to be pointed out early on that it is not all about America, it is all about God, and our wrong perceptions of who He is. Now that is a sensitive issue quite regardless of our geographical location. The rest of the world represented at Lightship may take heart - there is something here for us to wrestle with.

We are talking mindsets as you say in getting out of Babylon, or as I put it before "interior location". Having left the mindset and Babylon with it, it would free us to minister where God sends. Babylon is captivity, manifesting in legalism not only in the obvious sense, but in the imposition of rules we have taken on that have not come from God. Paul's Spiritual liberty was not compromised by the incarceration of his flesh, and neither should it be with us. The liberty God has given us is an interior one.

When we discussed Babylon before and some said it was the institutional church, they were offended by my insistance on keeping the liberty to stay in, should God so direct. That was a giveaway. The main teacher of that view at the time was obsessed with communicating his own agenda. If we are finding ourselves imprisoned by that kind of thing again, or indeed having our own agenda that we want to push, that is Babylon thinking. We are to hold fast to the liberty to communicate God's agenda. It is not about us.

Having stated that Babylon is a mindset, there are practical aspects of getting out of her. In that we are opening the discussion to include the political and economic issues as well as religious ones, it would be the easy option to think that all that is needed is a change of mind. It is not. It is a change of heart. Unless what we think is translated into a change in how we conduct our religious affairs, and how we use our finances and our political freedom the discussion will have been fruitless.

All these subjects hack at the root of our most fondly held beliefs upon which our lives have been built. Then there are difficult theological concepts which we are trying to apply to those already pretty scary areas. I can think of lots of reasons to cop out already. We will need each others' help.

Love, Mary

Luke 1:17.---" He shall go before his face in the spirit and power of Elijah.

We know what hold that prediction took of the Jewish mind, how it echoed through the vacant centuries which parted the to dispensations, how the Jews sent officers to ask the very first who gave promise of renewing the longed-broken succession of the prophets, ' Art thou Elisa?' They looked for the actual reappearance of that strange weird figure which had once been so suddenly projected upon the page of their national history and as suddenly withdrawn.

What was particularly remarkable about the spirit and power of Elijah? What did this man specially stand for? Wherein lies his importance? He appeared at a time when tendencies and influences that were perilous to the religious and also the moral life of his country were being admitted without much question. They were days of large tolerance. People were being led to believe that they could worship and serve Jehovah, and at the same time worship and serve Baal; that they could admit into their life what was uplifting had been inspiring, and at the same time give a place to what was degrading in debasing; that they could live a double life with a certain amount of recognition of Jehovah on the one hand, and steep themselves in the pollutions of Baal on the other. It was the double Life spoken of by the Master as the attempt to serve God and Mammon; spoken of by St. Paul as drinking a cup of the Lord and the cup of devils. And the spirit and power of Elijah were the spirit and power to contest that view of things, to call for decision the one way or the other. It cannot be both, he said. You cannot limp between the two. If it be God, then serve Him; if it be Baal, then serve him. He brought things to an issue, that is to say; has stood out as the champion of a pure religion and a pure morality.

Now it was in the spirit and power of this man that the Baptist came. He found in his day easy views of religion couple with loose morals; this double life; this drinking of the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils. And he went forth with ' repentance ' as his watchword; called upon men to quit the double life and come out clear for God and His righteousness; called upon them to step down with him into the Jordan, to be baptized there in token that they were making a clean cut from the evil past and were coming out for the Lord and His ways---in token booth that there was to be no more limping between two opinions and two modes of life; they were to be out and out for God. And because that was this man's attitude, not for others only, but for himself in his own life, not for his on life only, but for others; because this took possession of all his soul and all his being as the thing that simply ought to be---he is called 'great in the sight of the Lord. ' And the Master said, ' among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist. '

The Spirit and power of Elijah, then, may be seen in two ways.

In superiority to the world.---The prophet must be manifestly not of the world. His home here is the desert. His citizenship is in heaven. It is God dwelling in man. The Elijah spirit in power cannot be a man of the world. In the world, as a man of flesh and blood, he must be, as a man knowing the misery and sin and the ruin to which he is to be voice and hand and medicine; knowing the disease better more intimately than others, as possessing the gift of God is discernment and its cure---in the world, therefore, but not of it. They who would accept his ministry must go to him in the wilderness. They will not find him by idle curiosity which might just watch the waving of the reeds on the banks of the Jordan. There will not find him by that sort of worldly seeking which might bring them out to see flaunting by the wearers of soft clothing and the dwellers in luxurious courts of the kings. They must go after him into his desert, and seek him there as God's prophet.

A man can no more live two lives than he can serve two masters. There's a sense, indeed, in which it is quite easy, quite common, to combine these contraries. But such a man must discard the hope of being employed in God's work as here described. An Elijah cannot live two lives. Living for God, he lives not for the world. What is it to him if Ahab calls him enemy, or Jezebel hunts his life? What is it to him whether Herod hears him gladly, or makes a present of his head to Herodias's daughter? His life is hidden---hidden with God; hence his courage, his truth, his spirit, his power. He is above the world. He can confront earth's threatening, because he has trodden underfoot earth's enticements.

The other striking point in the spirit and power of Elijah is its earnest controversy with idols.---The crisis of Elijah's life was so Carmel. There through a whole day he did battle on a material stage with a vile and sensual demon-worship. He brought to issue for that age the question between God and Baal. And the chapter which details his conflict in victory is still as full of Divine pathos and fire as when it was written.

It is even more instructive to observe in what sense the Baptist was an iconoclast. Israel, carried captive to Babylon, unlearned effectually is inveterate tendency to idolatry. There was no subsequent relapse into image-worship. At first sight we might almost suppose that John neither possessed nor wanted the Elijah power. When you look below the surface you see, in his brief ministry, a yet closer and sterner combat with idolatry as God sees it. The idolatry which then prevailed was more secret, more insidious. There had been the change, between Elijah's day and the Baptist from ancient to modern. The state of religion, as John found in Palestine, was substantially that of modern today. It consisted in a simple substitution of form for spirit, of name for reality, of religion, the factor common for faith, the liberty and the life. When John the Baptist boldly met the Pharisees who came, with patronizing condescension, to submit up to his baptism as the fashion of the moment, with the tremendous denunciation, 'O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance,' he was reenacting by the Jordan the very slaughter of the brook Kishon; he was entering the lists with a subtler that any visible idolatry; he was proving himself master, in the might of the Spirit, of those lying vanities which counterfeit piety; it was laying an ax to the very root of the tree of falsehood in its most perilous, most poisonous development A man must be a brave man, independent of the world, in advance of this time, to do this half of Elijah's work thoroughly. Each section of the Church, each period, each congregation, has its idolatries. In one it may be the exaggeration the form, in another it may be the disparagement of duty; and one, the deification of Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas---some honored church-name consecrated; in another, an ignorant parade of the boastful 'I am of Christ' as an assertion of a higher spirituality than can consist at all with subordination to human authority. Any side, any particular, any feature of truth can be distorted into an idol; you have but to isolate it, you have to make it swallow up his check and its correction, lying on the same page or another page of Holy Scripture, and it becomes a idol at once, which only the power of an Elijah can beat into the Nehushtan which it must be made.

In Christ, timothy.

The healing of the people is the people's concern. Be it mental, physical, or spiritual, we ARE accountable for our brother(s).

My daughter works in a Govt. run system that cares for mentally handicapped people. Some were born into these diseases and handicaps, others put themselves there with drugs and accidents, still others were victims of abuse. She was shocked to discover the fix all cure for those who are not manageable is chemical restraints, since it isn't appropriate to put them in shackles. Once restrained, these people cannot complete their day's routine, and their sheets are crossed with chemical restraint - client's routine unfinished - this may include eating, showering, and therapy.

She and i have discussed at length why these people become unmanageable - what triggers a rage or angry outburst. She, although still training, believes it is partly because no one cares - is concerned for them on a one to one basis. They may be wired wrong, they may be trapped inside bodies that don't work or respond to the mind's commands, but their spirits are not handicapped, their link to The Father is still whole - and if He desires it, they can serve Him in their way. God needs willing hearts, and if we give Him willing hearts, He will provide the rest.

"My Grace is sufficient for Thee".....

I'm convinced that if we raised the Presence of The Lord in an institution for those handicapped, we could put it out of business, and watch them walk, heads held high, out the door and into the service of The Lord.

Bi-polar, CFS, and repetitive strain injuries are something the medical world hasn't got all the facts on, yet, but if we give them time, i'm sure they will pidgeon hole them successfully.

I suffered the depression many women get from childbirth, for two years and did not know that was my problem. I didn't receive any treatment for it, but through it, The Lord spoke louder and i heard Him. He took my depression, and gave me assurance in the Mind of Christ and the peace beyond all understanding. Now, many years later, i still get some days where things may not look so good, but i rest upon His mercies being new every morning, and knowing The Lord who has Overcome the world.

All attacks from satan start in the head. A thought, or an idea, and if we entertain these thoughts, he hooks into our spirits, and then our conscience minds, and our hearts until the deed is done. Thought, they say, is father to the deed, and i always remember that satan is the father of lies.

once he is lodged, it is difficult to remove him, especially if the person doesn't see the wrong, or the deception satan presses upon them. I think this is why so many "normal" people end up in mental institutions or are treated life long with drugs and therapies, that solid prayer and faith (as tiny as a mustard seed) would abolish in minutes. The spiritual is unseen, and to many doesn't exist or matter as much as what they can see or hear or feel.

My daughter tells me some of her clients are more responsive in the sessions of singing, where they sing praise songs, than they are to a whole day of walking or light exercise or television or radio. I think the praise songs spark their spirits, and i believe if these sessions were kept up, healings would occur.

i am not familiar with Daniel Chapter seven, but i will read it and see what The Lord says to me.


Hi Teresa,

Always like your comments. What you say about being our brother's keeper is very significant. What I am finding out is that there are some drugs that do some good in these areas but too often drugs are given out indiscriminately in place of counseling and effective therapy. Also, you seem to be echoing what I have heard others say and that the doctors for the most part haven't got all the facts. You have more faith in our system than I have, I don't think they will ever get it right. This is where the Lord comes in, He always knows what is wrong and He is able to instill in His servants just what a person needs to hear for deliverance. We must however be willing to go or at least to pray that the Lord sends people to go.

There must be an effort to get out to them but it must be done by those that have the power of deliverance: deliverance from the drugs, the alienation and oppression, the despair and traumas, the sins that so easily besets them and the self-indulgence that comes with being dependent on others. I could go on and on, each case is different but there is not enough help to treat them differently. I see much self-centeredness drummed into them by well meaning but mis-guided folks who would have them accept who they are with pride instead of change.

Many of them know the Lord and that mustard seed that you mention goes a long way in communicating and receiving that power. As I think of the gifts that are need in this area, it would be hard to list any of them without listing them all but it is the fruits of the spirit that will be most effective. If we could just bring them the love and compassion that is necessary to witness to them of the love that Jesus has for them, they will have the resolve to accept whatever the Lord has for them and be delivered from the pain and suffering that they are going through.

There is no drug cure-all. Competent and responsible physicians know this but still will treat too many cases the same way and that is to medicate them whether they need it or not. Like you say, too many normal people are in mental institutions that could only be cured through prayer and faith. It is a real shame.


Good grief Jay, you have said a mouth full that time, it may take a few e mails for me to answer allot of it. You have certainly given me a lot to think about. Today though, I think I will just comment on Elijah and the way that although he was a mighty man, known to put some false prophets to the edge of the sword, he did tremble at the very mention of the name Jezebel. Jezebel is a spirit, and there can be no denying that there is power there. I think it is important for us, all of us, especially when confronted by that sort of spirit, to remember WHAT THE LORD SAYS, and not what we FEEL. If Elijah could be shaken in his boots by the mere mention of this spirit, we certainly can as well, and that is why it is so relevant TODAY that we stay in the Word of God, and ALWAYS REMEMBER WHAT THE LORD SAYS ON EVERY SUBJECT, NOT WHAT OUR SENSES WOULD TELL US. It is, after all, a WALK OF FAITH, and never before has this been more true than today....

God bless,
Eddie Tools

Hi Eddie,

You are so right about Jezebel. I understand her to be a spirit very alive and will be trying to silence the prophets of the Lord even today.

I am going to be sending out a piece on confronting Ahab and the prophets of Baal and it is the Jezebel spirit that will try to silence any prophetic voice today that does that. I believe that the Antichrist, the beast, the false prophet, the image of the beast and Jezebel are all tied together in these last days. While not trying to be too dogmatic on who these people may be right now, I think that they will be revealed soon.

Thanks for writing.


I like that idea Jay. It is getting more AND more obvious that the biggest battle field, spiritual battle field that is, at the present, is right here in the United States. Many liberals profess hatred for Christ and Christianity in such a vicious dogma that it is hard to believe they have been privy to the same bible that I have, although they openly admit they would not read it at any price. Many in this country are openly Satanic, many are Wiccan, this country itself is attacked at this time by this "Jihad" for one good reason, it is our weakest as far as numbers goes. But, we all know, from the experience of Gideon, it is not numbers that count. I am interested in what you have to say my friend, and I am looking forward to more email from you on the subject.


Jay, Jay, Jay,

This DESPAIR IN ELIJAH is an attack by the JEZEBEL SPIRIT!!!!!!!

Before this she killed hundreds of the PROPHETS in Elijah's school of prophecy there. She is coming back NOW, in the END TIME, IN A MORE FEROCIOUS WAY, attacking the PROPHETS, attacking the BRIDE OF CHRIST. She is trying to stop the CHURCH, THE BODY, THE ECCLESIA, from being READY when Jesus comes in order the thwart the plan of God.

Love in Jesus,
Phyllis Fountain

"So what is the cure for despair? Faith, hope and charity, these three."

Dear Jay,

My wife and I just returned from a weekend with family. On the long drive there, we discussed the familiar topic of despair - and concluded what we needed was more faith. What was different about our conversation this time, is that we didn't whip ourselves for lack of faith. This time, the Lord reminded us that faith is a 'spiritual gift' (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), and we have not prayed for the gift of faith like we've prayed for other gifts.

To the logical mind, and I've even heard it preached, that faith is something that is "built up" through the exercise of it, and through seeing many blessings and miracles come to pass. Yet for all the many things my wife and I have experienced, we still struggle with faith, and despair. Being gut level honest, it often seems/feels like God does not meet us in our obedience. After many years of struggling to make it, on what seems like little more than table scraps, I really don't have hope that the difficulties we face will work out in this life. Rather, I now look to going home, where everything will be resolved.

Perhaps that is by design - to teach us to put faith in HIM not in dates, events, solutions, blessings, etc. The answer for us would seem to be prayer for the spiritual gift of faith. The other gifts, though wonderful, don't provide the long lasting sense of peace that faith does.

I really wonder if the experience of others is similar to mine - that we have prayed for gifts such as tongues and prophecy more than we have prayed to receive the gift of faith?

Great hearing from you Jay!

Love you! Jack

Thanks Jack,

Long time no hear. Hope you are doing well.

This issue has me stumped, not knowing what to do in the long run. There is a great mission field in the psychiatric wards but not many missionaries.


Hi Jay,

Since most are state run, and there is separation between church and state, it doesn't seem like they would throw open their doors to deliverance ministries - especially when patient "cure" equals loss of a "revenue unit." I've even heard the same type of rhetoric in the institutional church, where the leadership refers to the flock as "giving units." As long as the inmates are viewed as 'income' and 'job security', you will have a battle on your hands for them.

You know Jay, the Lord has led me and Karen to go back into institutional churches with worship and music - so we've been doing anything from 3-4 songs of special music to hour long concerts. I had lots of 'issues' with that, until He pointed out that all I was doing was visiting the sick and in prison - there is no sicker person than someone who is spiritually blind and dead, and no one more a prisoner than someone wrapped up in religion. So we go in there to comfort them, give them drink, and just love them wherever they are at. Most refuse to have us, because we aren't 'members in good standing' with an IC - but a precious few say "come anytime you feel led to come, and bring your guitar".

I guess the key is invitation - make known your ministry, and willingness to come, and then trust the Lord to open doors by invitation.

What the Lord finally showed me about myself, and numerous other Christians who go into the IC to try to fix/heal it, is that we are wasting our time. He will, in time, pour out glory (Rev. 18:1-3), and then finally call to His people to "come out" (Rev. 18:4). The glory will NOT be in the institutions, but outside of them, where together with the call to "come out" people will not hesitate.

Oddly, He likened the battle for Baghdad to what He wants to do... we surround Baghdad, opposition comes out to meet us, and we deal with them outside their fortress. If we'd have paratrooped into the Baghdad town square, we'd have been annihilated. I guess it's the march around Jericho approach to warfare. When God sent Karen and I to Princeton, He had us claim Princeton by tent-staking the town (Isaiah 54:2-5). On occasion, we drive around and pray at the 4 corners we tent-staked (about 3x8 miles) - and we wait for His move. He has occasionally shown us new signs at the 4 corners, of progress, and to prompt prayer. Also, He has on occasion sent us into an IC as an 'incursion', where He's had me release something by prophetic word, and we have seen people exodusing an IC shortly after we've visited there. But it is with His leading only. I can't do it by my own strength.

While I wouldn't say it's a 'universal' tactic, it seems like the Jericho / Isaiah 54:2-5 approach of surround and claim / pro-claim is the first step of overcoming institutionalized oppression /occupation. It's working here in Priceton, albeit slowly (to my eyes anyway).

Good to hear from you brother!


Hi Jack,

Good to hear from you also.

I agree with what you say about church and state becoming a money thing and people being treated as a "revenue unit." Deliverance ministries come with power however and are such that God will have to throw open the doors, of course He is able to do that. There are so few churches today that have to power to do this type of thing that it is no wonder why the problem is so acute. What happens is that most of the churches that do try to get involved bring the same luke-warm message as if these people have never heard it before. They are no economic threat to hospitals or to drug companies or to other churches because they fall right in line with the same tired old song. What I have seen is that most people need to be reached with the power of God and that comes through love, humility and holiness. The people that they are ministering to have already accepted the truth of the cross unto salvation but not given over to Lordship or repentance. So all they get is the same old warmed over holier than thou attitudes that they have rejected countless times before, to try to get them saved. They come to heal the sick when they are actually not well themselves. They are wasting their time until the beams are cast out of their own eyes and are able to come in power.

It concerns me, Jack, that you seem to think that the glory of God will not be found in the institutional churches but only outside of them. This is a very general statement that I have heard many times before but I cannot agree with it. It seems that this spirit brings preconceptions into church that precludes God's Spirit to even be invoked. I believe in the entire sanctification of the congregations and if this attitude is allowed to be brought into an assembly, the power or the glory will not come with it. If we are to perfect others, it has to start with love that is the same as Jesus' love for these people and that is unconditional and without regard for their circumstances or location. Not just prejudice masquerading as love but actually doing it the way that the Lord wants us to as truly led by His spirit.

Am I reading you right here?


Hi Jay,

Sorry it concerns you ... my reasons for believing that way are biblical - perhaps you think I mean all churches that meet in buildings - I don't - the building is really becoming a non-issue for me. But where the church is die-hard denominationalist, in rebellion against unity, where they practice tradition, are into iron-fisted pastoral rule, etc., that's what I mean. All that junk is of the harlot (Rev. 18) where she has survived off of the gifts and labor of the saints and prophets. The Father wants His people to come out of her, and in most cases, because I have never yet seen an IC repent corporately of their corporate/denominational/institutional sins, the Father will woo His people out of it. Like wooing Lazarus out of the tomb.

More specifically, I look to a few of the things Jesus said: at the end of Matthew 23, when He left the temple for the last time, He said to the Jews, and their temple-worship system in Jerusalem "Look! Your HOUSE has been left to you DESOLATE" - in other words "JESUS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING" ... and in regard to the disposition of the temple, Jesus said "NOT ONE STONE WILL BE LEFT ATOP THE OTHER" ... it was physically destroyed in 70AD and has NOT been rebuilt. Stephen and Paul picked up on the new move of God, and that is God has LEFT the temple worhsip paradigm behind, and HE entered into His people as the new temple at Pentecost (1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19). Stephen said "God does NOT live in HOUSES made by men" echoing the prophet Isaiah (Acts 7:48) and Paul qouted Stephen in Acts 17:24.

In 1 Peter 2:5-9, it says we are LIVING STONES of a SPIRITUAL TEMPLE that God is assembling. And whenever and wherever 2 or more of us come together, Christ shows up, and we have an 'assembly of the body of Christ' or 'Church'. The building is irrelevant. But the elements of Satan's schemes - that control, paganism, the 'silencing of the lambs' as Michael Clark calls it - there is a call to His people to come out of that so they can be assembled into the real, spiritual church which is made of people.

I do think it is possible for the church (people) to utilize a building for gatherings - and for pastors to operate in that capacity as a spiritual gift (pastoring) and not as a ruler over the congregation or go-betweeen between man and God (OT priest / religions leader paradigm). But it is really difficult for most assemblies to shake the harlots business model for the Church, relinquish control to the spirit, and allow the people to be the Sons of God (Gal. 3:26, 1 John 3:1), and Priests (1 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 1:6), and Temples of God (1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19) that they are. The difference, in my book, is measured by how the Church (people) treats the money/gifts that are offered. Does it go to a pastor, staff and the building? Or is is shared by ALL THE CHURCH where everyone is a SON, PRIEST, and TEMPLE, and where Jesus said about the sons and the temple tax "THEREFORE THE SONS ARE FREE"?

That is, I believe, why we see the assembled Church, at the end of Acts chapter 4, sharing in everything - using their money NOT to build buildings, pay professional ministers, and support religions programs, instead to help each other with basic human needs such as food, clothing, drink, shelter, medical care, etc. This approach goes hand in hand with the story of sheep and goats wherein Christ judges the WORLD for whether or not they have met the basic human needs of "THESE BROTHERS OF MINE".

You see Jay, ministers more often than not, LIE on Sunday mornigns. Out of one side of their mouths they say "THE CHURCH IS PEOPLE" (ekklesia) when there is WORK to be done - because PEOPLE do work. But when the minister takes the "offering for the church", the definition of the "church" changes to the institution. For IF the definition of "church" was always people, the minister would turn right around, take the offerings of the people, and pass those offerings BACK TO THE PEOPLE, just like Jesus did when He broke the bread that was offered and redistributed it to the people, where everyone took what they needed, and "there were no needy people among them" (Acts 4). It's really clear to me that the early Church understood giving principles ... and the current church model does not. Ministers and the IC use the term "church" interchangeably to manipulate the people - when it suits them CHURCH means PEOPLE, otherwise CHURCH means the BUSINESS/Institution. If ever you don't believe me, some Sunday morning after the offering is taken, go, track down the offering plates or buckets or feed bags (whatever the institution uses), and TAKE SOME BACK in keeping with Acts 4 (last couple verses). Now after the pastor, first 4-5 rows of the congregation, the choir and musicians have gotten done beating the hell out of you - and you wake from your coma in the hospital - you'll realize that once your money hits the plate it's "corban", which in these times is a gift dedicated to the Harlot/institution.

God's glory will not shine in Her. It will be outside of her (Rev. 18:1-3), and she will be summarily thrown down with violence in the end. My hope is that the saints will all escape her - and come to the glory, and voice, outside of her. Where SHE has swallowed up the saints Jay, which I often loosely refer to as the IC, there will be no glory IN HER. It will be OUTSIDE of her, so that the saints can see, and hear, what they are to go to, and what they are to leave behind.


What really bugs me about 'current thought' even in apostolic circles, is that many are still waiting for the kingdom to come ... waiting for some incredible move of God to radically change the world ... the fact is, the Kingdom is here. It's IN US. Whenever any 2 of us come together - REJOICE! It's an assembly of Christ's body! It's the joining of 2 living stones of the spiritual temple of God! And like fools, most of us have been looking for some physical manifestation / some building to happen on earth - and we still don't understand the basic things Jesus said like in John 6 "my words are SPIRIT" - His kingdom is NOT of this world (the physical) - it's SPIRITUAL and IT'S HERE IN US!

I would venture to say that 99.9% of our efforts to come up with an apostolic / 5-fold church on earth are wasted - because we always seem to be focused on some permanent dwelling - such as a building - when if we just look to God who is always calling His people out and home, and Jesus who wandered wherever teh Spirit led - we might understand that the CHURCH - the ASSEMBLY of CHRIST'S BODY is really a much more 'fluid and dynamic' thing than we've ever dared imagine. We keep trying to build 'towers of Babel' and God keeps frustrating our efforts - scattering His people - so they will simply seek Him. Church happens everywhere - anywhere - any time - wherever HE assembles any 2 or more. Our efforts to establish it on a concrete foundation are fultile, and show that we don't really understand God's design for A PEOPLE who simply follow HIM. Now I'm not about to go buy a tent and a backpack - but I realize that He just wants to make a CHURCH out of me, and every other believer, as we live for Him, and touch each other as building blocks in HIS temple.

As long as the church is a "thing" and not a "people", we will wander in blindness and futility.

Hope that clarifies what I meant Jay - I've never really expressed my belief this way before - rather never written it down. We are the temple now, the Glory will shine in US - not in a silly building, or as part of a vain religious program.


Hi Jack,

Thanks for the clarification. You know, as you mentioned Michael Clark, I have to confess that what you wrote before had the same ring as what he tried to teach our discussion group a few months ago and what I meant when I said that I had heard it before. When I challenged what he said, he quickly left as if we were Babylon, unworthy of his inspired truths and that he had the final word. Both of you guys really identify the problems in the church really well but I have to say that it is an irresponsible statement to say that "Jesus has left the building." I do not believe that the IC is Babylon but I do believe that much of the IC is held captive there. God was there in ancient Babylon, the Jews were still Jews and God still loved them, protected them and delivered them. God has not abandoned us either and where Jesus is lifted up in spirit and truth, He is still there in all His power and glory. I am sure that you would agree.

No matter how many times and how many places that His people leave Jesus, Jesus will never leave us, nor the type of building that we worship in. You know me so you know that I also criticize the abuses of the church and tithing practices, the disunity, false authority and all but Jack, Jesus has not abandoned any part of the church, physical or spiritual, but inhabits the praises of His people. Where He is given the glory and honor, He is there; where He is lifted up, He is there. Of course we are the temple and the living stones and there is a new paradigm, the old system has been abolished and the kingdom of God is within us. There is no doubt that satan's schemes had held sway in too many Christian's lives but Jesus died on the cross to defeat these schemes and His grace is sufficient for us.

We must condemn these false practices and traditions and do what we can to feed the flock with spiritual meat but what I see is too many outside the camp condemning the people inside, instead of the practices. That is not unity or feeding the flock, it is schismatic self-righteousness masquerading as comer-outers. It is not our job and it has never worked. It is our job to restore what the enemy has taken away and that can only be done through love, humility and unity in spirit and truth no matter where we worship.

I agree with you Jack when you say that "the building is irrelevant" but if it is irrelevant, what good is it to say, "Jesus has left the building." There is no way to reconcile those two statements without approaching the problems of the church with prejudice, confusion and condemnation. That is Babylon in my mind and I have been hesitant to mention apostasy. What people are doing in defining Babylon outside of the mindset that attaches herself to the beast is to not be able to understand her enough to actually come out.

When the Lord admonishes and praises the seven churches of Asia in Revelation, He told them to repent but He also told them to hold fast until He comes and to strengthen what remains, not flee what remains. The upper room was a structure that we can properly call a building but the Holy Spirit was poured out there. It has nothing to do with what you are talking about with catch phrases like paradigm shifts or desolation.

I see both of us thinking that the church should be modeled after the Jerusalem church. To be true, we have to take into consideration the widows and orphans, the blind and the naked, the hungry, the homeless and the mental infirm, etc. The church has not done a suitable job of that and has built their own little kingdoms with pride and steeples as high as the tower of Babylon. I see your way however, as treating them as untouchables and a waste of time unless they are outside the camp like you are. Don't get me wrong, I once held that kind of attitude for people in churches but I found that love and acceptance is what the Lord would have for them. I understand that you do not think that you are treating them that way but I see prejudice and preconceptions based upon truths taken out of context to support a misconception and that because I am outside of your camp. We should be in the same camp but I believe in unity through agreement enough to know that we should love each other regardless. This is where we can agree wholeheartedly I'm sure.

Get back to me if you like. I don't think that you want me to have the last word on this; it is my prayer however that God gets the last word and we can come to some kind of agreement. The notion that like Elvis, "Jesus has left the building," will find a brick wall here though. Again, I believe that it is an irresponsible statement, completely without a shred of truth or spiritual value and totally deserving of ridicule and a lot of re-writing from the source. I am not trying to sound offensive but only unshaken on this point.

Yours in Jesus,


Hi Jay,

In OT temple worship, the Lord resided in the Holy of Holies, and people went to Jerusalem to worship ... that the curtain was torn, the spirit entered human temples, and later the temple in Jerusalem destroyed is what I mean by "Jesus has left the building". There is still a tremendous mindset among 'evangelical Christians' that one must "go to church" to worship or otherwise approach God. I see it here - people put on their holy behavior in the church buildings, and revert to normal outside - I run into someone at the grocery store and our greeting there is wholly different than in the church building. What I really want to see the "church" which is people do, is when they meet one another, to recognize that the person standing before them is a "temple of God" and to greet and relate to each other as the precious vessels / and cargo that we are. That we treat each other differently in a church building, from elsewhere, just goes to show how the move from communities for Christ, to church buildings has isolated 'church life' from 'daily life'.

I've been pondering lately Jesus words "You will not seem ME again until you say 'Blessed is HE that comes in the name of the Lord'." Often, people interpret that as a statement / prophecy about His 2nd coming - but - I wonder if what He means is that we will NOT see Him again until we recognize that He resides in our brothers and sisters, and we begin to greet and treat each other like the holy temples that we are? Now as I've pondered this, a friend gave me a prophetic confirmation - telling me about someone she met with who upon seeing a brother in Christ, exchanged greetings and for just a moment, the one saw Jesus in the other - like Jesus face was overlaid upon the mans face.

Karen and I are going to any place we're invited to sing, where we witness, give away CDs, sing, etc. and have supper with folks, and we are making lots of friends who are still in ICs. What we're seeing is, word of mouth work for us, and we are having a great time at it - but at the same time, we'll never join one - nor commit ourselves to the regular attendance of one, unless the Lord specifically directs.

You might get a little more insight into what I'm saying by my latest article - "Where do you go to church" which is at http://www.lordyouare.com/a22.html and "Building with living stones" at http://www.lordyouare.com/a18.html

Would it make more sense Jay if I said "Jesus has left the building as His permanent dwelling place on earth and has entered His people instead" or "Jesus has left the building, but visits His people who meet in them when they assemble in His name and worhsip Him"?

The whole Holy of Holies / temple worship paradigm was to show the separation between God and man - God dwells there, and we can't go in except the outer courts - the priests can come closer. After the cross, the division was removed, and He entered us. Yet in most ICs, the OT temple model remains, and people still approach God as if unreachable, distant ... I'd dare to say that the commonly accepted church model perpetuates the OLD paradigm, and serves to keep God isolated from His people. What is needed, is contact, from people like us, to teach them. And in our case, we have endured many stonings, and crucifixions to bring the good news. In all my life, working for Boeing, retail, et al, I've never been so persecuted for my beliefs as in the IC. You can see the same parallel between Jesus and the Pharisees ... but we still endure it. Sadly, few listen - for reasons that I won't go into here.

We do go in Jay - we listen, we speak when asked, we love and care, but we leave by the door we came by.

What sort of church do you frequent Jay? And have you ever spent time in the likes of a liturgical church such as Meth. Pres. Epis. Cath. etc?


I hope that the only disagreement we are having Jay is over terminology ... you said above - "I do not believe that the IC is Babylon" ... the problem as I see it is, that the word "institution/al/ized" does not go together with "church" which is people. The Church belongs to Him -wherever we meet ... but "institutionalization" is OF Babylon - "institutionalization" is the effort to codify, ritualize, and control the people, and to bring the experience of Church fellowship into the realm of what we used to call in Boeing product development a "repeatable process" which is intended to produce a consistent result / quality product.

For me, it is really quite simple - I look at Genesis 1-2, we see God and man/woman, together, unashamed and naked, walking in the garden of God's provision, in fellowship. There is absolutely NO institutionalization evident in Gen. 1-2. Look to Rev. 21-22 where it is all reconciled and restored - again, no institutionalization. Just God and man, together in the garden of God's provision. Much of what lies between Gen. 3 and Rev. 20 is the record of man's vain attempts to reconcile himself to God, through religiosity, etc. Institutionalization is of sin/babylon/man, not of God.

The institutionalized church is not Babylon, I agree. But by definition, the institutionalized church is in babylon because institutionalization is OF babylon. Since the literal definition of "church" is the greek word "ekklesia" which means "a called out assembly" - perhaps we should ask "what are we called out of"? Babylon! Captivity! The ways of the world! ... So why would we couple a word which by definition means captivity (institutionalization) with a word that calls us out of captivity? In my way of thinking, "institutional church" is an oxymoron -akin to saying "clean dirt".

Perhaps the difference of opinion here is as simple as where we emPHAsize the term: "INSTITUTIONAL church" or "institutional CHURCH" ... It is simply my belief that the CHURCH needs to get out of the institution. I visit them, in their institutions, but I don't take up residence there.

Gotta run! Blessings!


Dear Jay,

I haven't written for a while but I have been here and appreciating your writings very much. Especially this last one on despair! As a physician and a christian I have had a personal struggle with despair and have overcome this intense battle. I did take medication at first which was very helpful,but as most have found, physicians often won't let you go, and can keep you dependent on medication for a very long time. On the other hand, I have tried to show many christians the spiritual dimensions to bi-polar disease, and they have refused to accept this. Try getting someone delivered who is in denial, and would rather hold on to their dysfunction than accept the transforming power of the love of God!!

As you so rightly point out we are all bi-polar to a greater or lesser degree, Elijah was as was David, Ezekiel, Jeremiah was more depressive than bi-polar--but this is great company!!

I often think how we could empty whole psychiatric wards by ministering faith hope and charity--but this would upset the whole financial system of the world, and help establish another kingdom-His. Yet we can be effective one on one, and one at a time, if we would dare to do it. Especially with our brothers and sisters in Christ!

May He grant us the grace to begin.

Transformed by His love,

Hi Ada,

Since I am not a doctor and have only limited knowledge of the problem, your letter gives me a little confidence in what I said as being partly true.

In the eighties I spent a lot of time in the mental health community, not as a minister or counselor but because I had friends there who had friends and I got to observe them a lot and even put some of them to work. I found that most all of them were Christian, they led a worldly life and were easily tempted but all had a degree of faith to know that the Lord was bringing them through. Many of them were in the prophetic but knew nothing of the term or of spiritual giftings at all. What they all needed was deliverance from one thing or another but seldom were in a position to receive it from people that knew what was going on with them. The doctors had them all on some type of drugs. There are drugs that do good but if they are used as a cure-all simply out of convenience and ignorance, we all lose in the long run. I have many stories to tell but I won't.

Anyway, I can see your frustration at trying to tell of the spiritual dimensions here, from both sides of the problem. The world is not God's kingdom and certain things will be going on that is just not right. We can only hope for a better day soon where we can address these problems with the power of Jesus instead of the dehabilitating power of drugs. Time will tell but I pray that the Lord can use His people to get it together and start doing something about it.


Brother Jay,

I would really like to have an opportunity to talk to you about some of the statements you made in Part 3-just finish reading it.......

I wonder if we could make a time to talk?

I am a born-again, Spirit filled follower of Jesus Christ. I think there is a lot I could share with you to perhaps round out some of the opinions you shared in your newsletter. I have been diagnosed with bi-polar illness since I was 23 and had two severe episodes of depression prior to the diagnosis. I have been through the "mental health community" since I was 19. Bi-polar illness is a true neurological disorder-a brain chemistry disorder that at present can not be cured only 'controlled' with medications. Is there a spiritual competent-yes-I believe there is, in that I have had to deal with it (them).

This condition is not "deliverance/healing" material in the sense of a cure. Although deliverance is helpful in freeing an individual from bad roots therefore bad fruits. The reality of brain chemistry disorders are documented in very much the same way other medical problems are.....Did you know that bi-polar people actually have different brains than a normal person and that they have more monoamine receptors than the norm. Take a look in a recent psychology book and/or anatomy & physiology book and look at PET scans and an untrained eye can tell the difference between a person with bi-polar affective disorder or a person with schizophrenia.

And it is NOT underscore NOT easy to get on SSI today. The average person on SSI may get about $500 a month It is next to impossible to live on that amount. I worked for 40 some years (I am now 50)-I receive $766 a month. Can you imagine the places I have lived in or to exist on this amount, while paying a tithe?

My faith in God, His faithfulness and love have kept me going for 50 some years. I have an excellent doctor currently. I take 3 different meds which helps to keep a balance in my life. We all know that the battlefield is in the mind. So those of us Christians, who have brain chemistry disorders-which affect mind-areas of thinking, emotions, and other physiological functions, simply have a much greater challenge than those who do not.

Let's talk.

Beth Schim
A sister in Canon City, Colorado

Hi Beth,

Just tried to phone you but e-mail is good. What you write is very interesting. I admitted in the article that I am not an expert in psychology and certainly have not had any exposure to the terms that you are referring to here, my experience has been in deliverance. When we discussed this briefly on the lightship forum, I admitted that there might be some drugs that do some good these days but that we must be real careful. What I have noticed is the harm that it seems to be doing to some people. You seem to have a strong relationship with the Lord that has carried you through and you admit to having a good doctor. That is real good but not all are so fortunate, I am sure that you would agree.

I use prescription medication for a respiratory problem and it helps. Jesus could cure me of that but I believe that many times, He uses doctors and medicine to effect the cure. On the other hand, I have an acquaintance that was raped as a young lady and rejected by her father. Her depression was caused by trauma but instead of the trauma being healed, the symptoms are masked by drugs. I see no therapeutical value in something that does not help but rather causes a zombie like existence. The pain is not gone but deadened by drugs, and so is a productive life. I have seen real improvement in her when we pray.

Getting on SSI may be harder today since it has become such a problem but in the eighties and nineties, it seemed the way to get many people off of welfare if they were under a doctor's care. It seemed like pretty much an automatic thing once diagnosed with any type of mental illness. I do feel humbled due to my ignorance on these things today but the more that I have been exposed to the mental health community, the more that I see things going in the wrong direction and people being written off of society instead of getting the help that they truly need.

Get back to me if you like with some comments.


Dear Brother Jay,

I am disappointed that I missed your phone call! I would have enjoyed the opportunity to talk to you. Since you are a 'writer' and I tend to express myself a bit better in written form-email is a good way to communicate.

I am interesting in communicating with you in that the Lord has impressed upon me the need to minister to the "mentally" ill. I agree with you 110% that the mental health community does not address adequately the needs of the afflicted individuals. And yes, the zombie state from improper medication or overmedication is frequent and not acceptable.

I had an interesting conversation with Mark Sanford - Elijah House in January when I had opportunity to counsel with him for 5 days. He and his father, John Sanford [you list Elijah House on your site] authored a book, "Deliverance and Inner Healing"-you may be familiar with this work. Anyway, I asked him about the connection between mental illness, ie. bi-polar affective illness and the spiritual. And if I remember correctly he said that counselors have never come up with an answer.

Jay, I believe that the answer is hidden in the heart of God, and if I or anyone else would seek that answer that our Lord would reveal it-so that the captives could be set free. I have been asking, seeking, and knocking on this issue for many years.

I have as yet, not found a group of Christians that minister to the "mentally" ill. I friend of mine who is in the mental health community (MHC) told me that what is lacking is the "LOVE" of God. And I totally agree with her. I have had absolutely horrendous experiences in the MHC and psychiatric hospitals and clinics.

Setting the captives free in this particular pit of hell-is multifaceted. Jesus is the core. Education, medications, deliverance, prayer, grounding in the Word, teaching on discernment of 'spirits', words of knowledge/wisdom, loving support and housing, nurture. Almost a five fold ministry-I guess the 'apostle' could spearhead and rally support.

The stigma of "mental illness" [an aside-I do not like this term] is so strong, even among Christians. I it no wonder that the 'captives' are still in chains.

From reading another of your articles, I detected that the issue of how the mentally ill are treated or not treated carries some 'passion'. I wonder what fuels this upset?

Maybe we have some common ground in that I have been looking for mature Christians that might want to step out in the giftings that the Lord has given them to make a difference, for example the thousands of mentally ill put out on the streets of California.

The situations with these "souls" is only bound to get worse. Here in Colorado, funding is being cut back, and therefore 'services'.

The Harvest is ripe, do you know of any laborers?

Thanks for the opportunity to 'chat'. If you or your family are ever in Colorado you are always welcome at my place.

God bless you and keep you in His care.

* Beth Schim
A sister in Canon City, Colorado

Dear Brother Jay,

As we were talking about mental illness, deliverance and the spiritual connection. Here is some recent research that helps to show the genetic link to bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.

Gene Variation Raises Risk Of Bipolar Disorder And Schizophrenia

Increased risk for bipolar disorder has been linked to two overlapping genes on the long arm of chromosome 13. University of Chicago researchers say earlier work showed the same gene complex increases risk for schizophrenia. Bipolar disorder or manic-depressive illness is a brain disorder that causes profound shifts in a person's mood. It is caused by multiple genes, researchers say, each contributing a small part. The newly implicated genes, G30 and G72, were discovered through positional cloning, an approach that relies on small differences among family members who have a disease and those who do not to track down the genes that increase risk. The authors say these two genes are rather odd, expressed only in primates and have no known function. They are located in a sort of "gene desert" near the end of the chromosome.Our God is so faithful as to allow us to see a fuller picture, in order to minister to others.

God bless you and keep you.

Beth Schim

Hello I agree with may things you say. I do have a question for you simply that Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against his work. And Peter would be the rock from witch he would build his kingdom. That said AM I to understand that you are restoring something Jesus said that the gates of hell could not destroy? Formerly I was a LDS something I gave 25 years to until I checked more deeply into its history to find things that would force me to leave. I wonder if there really is a Church that has all the truth, or is it just man that makes up these churches for gain and power. As I see it Jesus never asked anyone to give him a dime or to build a Building he simply said the glory of God is within you. The term as I understand "Church" is one that has become to mean buildings rituals etc.. Its original translation was simply a gathering of people. Jesus gave us the holy ghost to guide us after he left this earth. That is our mission I think to stay in touch with it so we can hear the voice of God. Following that still small voice along with our efforts of praying and scripture study will always be to our benefit. As far as living in harmony with no poor among us I agree with it, but Jesus also said that the poor would always be with us. Greed and self centered ness is the natural state of man I'm afraid. If there is a group that practices this and loves truly as Jesus taught, I pray I will find it. All we can do is try to live as best we can and hope for the best. At the judgment seat we will be there alone no one to blame or say I was part of a good group. Our actions will speak for us to condemn us or not. I again think that you have expressed many good principles to live by and hope you can find those of like mind. George

Hi George,

You raise some very excellent points that are timely in what we are discussing right now. Many are leaving the church with the idea that it is Babylon and something to flee from instead of remaining faithful and trying to restore what has been lost. In the end, the fact that our faith in Jesus being the Christ is the rock that the church is built upon and we are all successors to Peter if we have that faith makes us all living stones of the temple of God.

The original temple of the Lord was never destroyed before the restoration but it did lay in ruins and is used as a spiritual analogy of what we are to do today for the church. Ultimately, the temple at Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A. D. but the seat of worship had already been replaced in us with the spiritual temple of Jesus body as His church, which is worship in spirit and truth. Now His church lay in ruins and we are commissioned to restore all things, to replace what the devil has stolen. this is where I stand committed to do and teach.

You are quite right that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. It is our hope but a hope that many have abandoned because what remains has been corrupted. We are however told to strengthen what remains. It is our job not to just live the best we can but to do what we can to bring the church to perfection and feed the flock with milk and strong meat. We are to make disciples.

What you say in staying in touch with the Holy Ghost to guide us is very important. When the Sons of God are to be manifested, it will reveal those who have heard His voice and are led by His Spirit. Hearing the voice is merely the first step, stepping out and reaching what we have heard and received and taking to others is the important part. It is true that we will stand alone at the judgment seat and judged according to our actions but we will be judged not only by our relationship to God but in our relationship to others.

I am looking for the perfect church like you are. We both know that there isn't one outside of the grace that God has given us as a collective church body in the spirit, but as long as we stay faithful to that regardless of the faults of the individual members of His body, we do well.

Thanks for writing. As long as people like yourself communicate their heart as you have done, I have indeed found those of like mind.


Hi all,

Oh well, I am just going to say it. Much as I respect both Jack and Michael and think that they have some very good observations of what is wrong in the church, I can't seem to shake the feeling that underneath the theory hides a matter of unresolved hurts overlaid with a certain amount of unforgiveness. It always seems to me that it is that that fuels the fire, rather than Holy Spirit passion.

The church is defined by interior location, not geography, and so it makes no sense to "come out" if it is only a physical effort with the feet. And if there is unforgiveness and unrepentance on the inside, to quit the IC would just be to take all that baggage with you.

I think we have to clear the decks. Most here have suffered something at the hands of the church, and when we can say we have forgiven and we are healed, maybe that would empower us to do something constructive within the visible church to help resolve the obvious problems that are there.

Jack says this:

"What the Lord finally showed me about myself, and numerous other Christians who go into the IC to try to fix/heal it, is that we are wasting our time."

That sentence cut like a knife. Wasting our time? That doesn't sound like the Lord to me. When I think of the lengths He goes to, to fix and heal me.... I can only conclude this is not His voice. I do not think Jesus writes people off like that, not even ignorant, misled, unspiritual people up to their neck in traditions of men.....

There is a process through which we are made into people who can love like He loves. It starts with "tribulation worketh patience" then "patience, experience" then "experience, hope" and as we know "hope maketh not ashamed" why? because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost. It is a shameful thing if we are not loving, it is the whole aim and purpose of His working in us.

Our love will only ever be a lightweight thing unless we let God work His into us through the process above. Not abandoning ship before tribulation has had its chance to give us patience, turning aside into prideful theories of why we are right to storm off and slam the door. Love needs to be deep and committed. It is worth suffering for. It is unconditional. It is brave. It is longsuffering and forgiving.

It is none of those things if we abandon the people who most need us.

Love from Mary

Hey Jay,

The purpose of coming out is because they are in the wrong vehicle. They are in a boat that is going to crash because God is not steering the vehicle, man is. If they want to get to their destination they need to jump ship and walk across the troubled waters to get to Christ, where only God is steering. I referred to the 7 letters to show that Jesus was showing the remnant where the different churches had erred over time and how they must correct the situation. The ones who will heed the warnings will be the remnant, God's elect that will bring the true church back to Christ. So Yes, you are right, maybe I should have explained myself better in the first note.


Hi Paul,

You have stimulated my next latter rain list newsletter.

I haven't been explaining it too well either, but you are doing pretty good. While I know that we need to come out of Babylon and we should be a separate people, generalizing the institutional church as being Babylon misses key points.

First is that there are a lot of people being led by the Spirit in the churches as well as the false authority and Babylonian tendencies and confusion. Second is that most of the comer-outers usually get out of the churches bringing their Babylonian baggage with them. The church from many fronts give their allegiance, worship and power to the image of the beast as well as those that have not bent the knee to Baal. Church structure is irrelevant, whether cold or hot.

Knowing this is the essence of deliverance from the Elijah syndrome and understanding where the power of Jesus is in the war between these two gods, Jesus or Je$u$. Christians are supporting the leader of the new world order, thinking all the while that they are not in Babylon. It is the delusion that God has sent them for believing a lie, in this case, that the institutional churches or any church that does not meet with their misled ideal is Babylon.

Judgment begins at the church but the fact is that the gates of hell will not prevail upon the church and whenever two or more are gathered together in His name, He is there. Only one out of seven churches are going to be spit out and there are beloved brothers and sisters all over the place unless we abandon them, which would be apostasy. Jesus built the church upon a rock and we are the living stones wherever we lift Him, inside or outside of churches. Love is the cement that joins us together, not separation.

It's a spiritual thing; it is not the kingdom on earth that they have been giving their power to. Blaming it on the institution takes away from the true issue. It is that image of the beast that we have to be aware of as our primary enemy because it is the strongest false Christ in the world today. They haven't a clue.


Identifying Babylon is still an issue unresolved. It is as hard as telling the difference between a glass of fresh water and one of salt water by just looking at it. It is the difference between a delusion and a spiritual reality. We may never be absolutely certain which is which, that is, until we taste, sample, analyse.

There are two kinds of fishes broadly speaking: those that swim in the freshwater streams and lakes, and those that swim in the salty sea. With a few minor exceptions the fishes in each group cannot thrive in the opposite environment . The difference between the two kinds of fishes is the difference between two kinds of Christian moving in opposite environments: one walks in the Spirit, and the other walks in the religious flesh.

The differences in the properties of fresh water and salt water may be judged by examining these two environments in their natural extremes: On the one hand, we might trace the course of a freshwater stream to its source in the mountain spring. The sweet water here bubbles up through all seasons, never failing. It is unpolluted at source, slaking the thirst and giving life to all who partake of it; On the other hand, water overloaded with salt, such as the Dead Sea, is unable to support life of any sort.

Babylon is a dominion of spirituality tending towards death while appearing to support life. It exists in our unrenewed corporate mind and unhumbled heart still operating in the flesh on worldly principals. That as Christians we are admonished to “come out”, shows that it is a place of interior location. In the church this place is, as it were, polluted by the world to such a degree that it kills the Word of God and the operation of the life-giving Spirit, like a fertile plain which is flooded by the salty sea – nothing grows, nothing thrives. Nothing genuinely Spiritual, that is.

The duty of those of us called to help restore the church to its former glory is a question of reflooding the polluted land, i.e. the church, with the fresh water of revival by making sure we are living at the Fountainhead, dwelling constantly at the source of the Spring which is Jesus, so that the rivers of living water flowing forth from our bellies will in time cleanse the environment of all of its deadness and poison.

It will take patience and humility and much love, to minister in an environment hostile to the things of God to a greater or lesser degree. It is not going to be done without some commitment or without some difficulty; it is not going to be done by those whose interest is basically selfish and will run off at the first hurdle. It will be done by those who know how to hold fast to their liberty in Christ while working in a spiritual environment that would tend towards captivity, bondage, death.

To live by the Spirit is to live a life in Christ by a completely new means without dealing in anything that might be termed “currency”. The tendency of churches to treat the gifts of the Spirit as good selling points to attract larger congregations is now widespread. It is as though the fresh sweet water of the Spirit is salted to a point of unpalatability. This is the church that believes it is rich spiritually but is wretched, poor, blind and naked. Salt makes water an emetic, its addition to fresh water would make you sick. Jesus says He will spue the lukewarm church out of His mouth.

Salt is a good example of a commodity so highly prized that it was in ancient times synonymous with wealth, trade, success, and the heaping up of treasures. Salt is where the word “salary” comes from, and the expression “salting away” means to save up treasure for future times. As a spiritual parallel, the salty kind of environment is one of wealth to gathering extremes. To live by the Spirit, on fresh sweet, living water however, is to conduct all our dealings with God in the present tense, knowing that it is only Him who may be depended upon for our day-to-day livelihood in these last days. Only if we are willing to live close to the Source of Life will we receive provision, and as we receive, we are able to give to those who need.

It will take faith to live like this, severing bonds finally with the world and trusting God wholly. It can only be done in the context of a real relationship with the Lord in a state of present-tense repentance and Holy expectation. We should however encourage each other to aim for this and wash clean of the world and its material temptations. The secret is to set our hearts on the heavenly kind of treasure, where moth and rust do not corrupt.

One of the problems in identifying Babylon is that religious methods to be found there look entirely legitimate. Fundamentalism and legalism are rife even in churches that have their origin in sound doctrine and genuine moves of God. The reason is there is always a temptation in the Christian life to try to formularize the external conditions that resulted in past revivals personal and corporate, forgetting and leaving undone the more uncomfortable internal requirements such as confession and repentance. Labouring on obedience to the letter, without the power of God that results from having the inside of the dish clean, reduces our efforts to that of the Pharisee. There are modern equivalents even in spiritual circles which have the reputation of being alive. They have begun in the Spirit, but sought to be made perfect by the flesh. Love is the first casualty here.

Straying this far from the Fountain of life we are back in the trading grounds of the great salt sea, subject to the swelling currents of fame and prosperity, producing impressive displays of pseudo-spirituality which attract the greedy and the prideful. Using enticing words they convince the weak to risk all on the premise that gain is the same thing as godliness. We know, we need to get out of that.

Wherever there is greed and pride, wherever there is great wealth and territory at stake, there will be warmongering, there will be spoils, there will be blood shed by innocents, there will be slaughter. If these things are happily begun in the guise of spirituality, it is not hard to see that we have come a long way from the simplicity that is in Christ. If we live by those rules, we will die by them. That spiritual environment must be as foreign to us as sea water to a freshwater trout, so that we live and move in love, humility, peace, gentleness and meekness, preferring each other, foregoing our rights, caring for the poor, the weak, the lame, the outcast and the failure with Christ’s own tenderness and at His direction.

It is time to re-examine the true foundation of our faith, the true source of our strength and spiritual desire, and get out of that complacent mindset that tolerates sin, condones exploitation, thrives on pride and greed and exalts material success and worldly power. It is time to consider the spiritual environment in which we live and move, and whether it is land we should reclaim for Jesus. When our own hearts are made fertile again through confession, repentance, cleansing, we will in love be able see clearly the extent of our responsibility to the local church, and help perfect her according to the will of God.

Much love from Mary

The Church is Jesus Christ. We have to set aside time to be in complete harmony with Him and also in fellowship with our brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ created the Church for us Christians to come together to worship Him and to praise Him in unison and publicly. Going to Church is to be fed the Word of God and to use the Word of God in our daily lives and conflicts that we are faced with. If we didn't have the Church of God and of God the Son and of God the Holy Spirit; then we will become overwhelmed and defeated by life. We need to have hope, to know that we are going to be victorious in this life and to strive for our lives after death in the spirit realm.

We can't allow the Christians who are weak in their faith, in themselves and in the Body of Christ, to destroy or to sabotage our relationship with God. It is our responsibility to pray for each other and to set and to live our Christian lifestyles, first and foremost for our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. We shall never forsake The Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, because of Christians who want the fruits and the blessing of Our Lord Jesus Christ, without sacrificing their physical desires, wants and needs. Those of the very people whom Our Lord Jesus Christ suffered upon the cross for their sins and our sins. He came down to save harlots, demon possessed, the Pharisees, the Samaritans, those who nailed Him to the Cross. Yet He, Our Lord Jesus Christ, created the first Christian church.

What we must remember that the Church is perfect. It is us, the members, that are imperfect. Therefore, I am not going to allow or to permit another imperfect human being like me, destroy my relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Word, and what He is trying to teach and to achieve in me. Please go to Unity Builders For Christ, Inc. and read Daniel 3:31-100 in The New American Bible (NAB)

Stella Morris-McRae

Hey All, How are you all doing? Been a while I have not been active here at the Lightship. I am doing great as always. NO EXCUSES!!! Well I am off for the summer starting today. I am very excited about the summer. Besides two things that I am sure to be involved during summer rest the time I am open for however the Father will use me. It will be outreach stuff of some kind. Reaching NonChristians and Christians in the community. Anyways back to the subject, needless to say all the discussions that go here are good and encouraging but I MUST admit the exchange of emails between Jack and Jay were very interesting and I just read those in one sitting. Thank you Jay for posting those. I dont know why, maybe because I could relate myself in those discussions and thus were more real to me. But both had very good things to say and I could relate to both on many things they said. Now I know little about Jay. Read his testimony and have chatted for sometime now. His testimony speaks lot about himself. From all those experience I was able to connect to Jay. So I dont need to say much about Jay at this point. We may have minor differences but we agree on the main thing. And what Jay has to say about the IC's, I think I can see where he is coming from.

Yes I agree with Jay if I understood him correctly about the glory of God in the ICs as such. Yeah of course we need a place to gather. As long as all the people are truely seeking the Lord and are growing gradually, a building is just a place of gathering. Its where we all come to worship and fellowship. Its obvious that you need some place to come together and worship. And we can still feel the presence of God and His Glory at such places as there are always SOME who are seeking the Father and want more of Him. And He is there wherever He is wanted from the heart. As far as Jack is concerned, I am reading his postings for the first time. And I was able to connect to him as well. I think I can see where he is coming from as well. More than that what he said about him not being able to connect and does not go to any IC as such, I could relate to that myself. I do understand what he is saying about we being a church and the temples. But we all agree on Kingdom of God being within us, right? Yeah I have been in this town little over a year, same amount of time Father gave me a Spiritual Birth. I have visited most of the churches here in town. I LOVE people regardless. I know few people from everywhere and am able to connect to them. But I have not yet found a place where I can spiritually connect and go on a regular basis.

Last Sunday, I went to the Methodist church. Observed their service, stayed for the worship and tried to talk to people there. I later had a talk with the pastor. She kinda indirectly hinted me that I needed to get plugged in somewhere. I did not want to go into details but I briefly told her where I stand on that. Yeah I know I need to get plugged in. I know I need a place to go at a regular basis but then my greater conviction is against such traditions and being part of any denominations. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE them all but I cannot personally go to Methodists, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Pentecostals, Baptists or any other on a regular basis. But I do go to every one of them and share my heart with the people there. I go anywhere people receive me. I am who I am how people receive me. I freely share my heart with them and tell them the reason why I have not yet found a place where I go regularly. Father has not found a place yet for me. And have not been convicted of a place where He wants me to go regularly. So in this I and Jack are in the same wave length. He spoke for me on that. But now what I am trying to say is we all [Jack, Jay and all of us here] agree on the main thing. And I get the feeling that there is just a slight misunderstanding here between what Jack and Jay has to say. Maybe its because the communication is being done thru emails and one always cannot get what the other person is trying to say. The tone of expression, the intended meanings are not always clear. This I am speaking from my own experience here at the Lightship. Paul and I had a similar misunderstanding. We were not emailing but were on YAHOO MESSANGER. We were on real time chat and still Paul kind of misunderstood me. I was meaning to say completely different and he understood differently. So then we decided to talk on the phone and we talked things over. I clarified what I had intended to say and then he understood. We indeed were in the same wave length but he had completely misunderstood me. Do you remember that Paul? So thats what I get the feeling is happening here. Jack, Jay and rest of us are on the same wave length. There is just slight misunderstanding and the solution to that is PHONE and talking things over. Reading Jack's post I can say that he loves the Father. I strongly get that feeling and so with Jay's. So if both love the Father then where can you two go wrong? Its just that Enemy is planting the confusion between the two. So to say NO to the Satan, please pick up the phone and talk and clear things over like Paul and I did. I dont know if I got off the subject or made any sense here. But simply sharing my heart like always. Just had an urge to respond. JAY! by the way is there a way I can contact Jack? email? phone? Anyways I better stop here before I get carried away and go on and on. You all take care and keep in touch. Stef, Paul, Tim, Peg, Jay, Krissy, Angel, Marilyn and others...have not seen you all for a while. Hope to talk to you all soon Love You All. Please pray to the Father that He may draw us close to Him and to one another and for the LOST ONES.

By His Grace,Montou

Greetings Sweet Mary,

You Wrote:
"What the Lord finally showed me about myself, and numerous other Christians who go into the IC to try to fix/heal it, is that we are wasting our time."

That sentence cut like a knife. Wasting our time? That doesn't sound like the Lord to me. When I think of the lengths He goes to, to fix and heal me.... I can only conclude this is not His voice. I do not think Jesus writes people off like that, not even ignorant, misled, unspiritual people up to their neck in traditions of men....."

You have my deepest and most sincere affirmation. Not only do i completly agree with you here on this point but i MUST agree. No one was ever farther from serving our Lord than i was. i was both physically and spiritually desolate and even had denied to myself the very existence of our Lord Jesus. After 51 years of swimming up to my neck in the traditions of men of the most pagan and ungodly i could find, HE never gave up on me. Neither did those who were in Him that prayed for me while i lay in a self induced comma near the death that i so craved and had willingly earned.

Those who prayed for me were not saints or Christ made righteous spirit filled Christians. Just your average everyday folks who had heard and believed in Christ at some point in their lives. Most were the once a week "Church" goers of different demoninations and doctrins. What they had in common was a love and respect for Christ, big enough to include loving me no matter what kind of spiritual condition i had fallen into.

That i am alive today testifies that Christ has not "left the building" but still walks among the lampstands of the physical "Churches" and the hearts of those that inhabit them. Neither has He abandoned those who do not set foot in a "Church". Where the Spirit of Christ dwells in the heart of believers is where the "Church" is.

Where the power of His grace and love is flowing defines the boundries of each Church group. For some the boundries are narrow and restrict the flow of His grace and power, but it flows there just the same. For others the boundries are as great and wide as His capacity to pour out His blessings and power to change and perfect those who gather together within these same boundries.

Our obligations are to stay within these boundries with a heart full of love and concern for the healing and continued expansion of our brothers and sisters who are with us in Christ, wherever we find ourselves, no matter where we chose to gather in His name. To help bring about a personal growth and extension of the boundries that surround the hearts of each one of the members. As the boundries of our love for one another grows so do the boundries of the "Churches" expand. This releases the power and grace of Christ to flow at an ever increasing rate, by which the Church Body of Christ is perfected, reaching full maturity, made ready and worthy to be united with its Head, who is our Mighty Lord Jesus.

Hey i know i am preaching to the choir here but i just had to say "Thank you Lord" one more time for His saving grace and for all of you here on the Lightship with whom i share Him and His boundless love and grace. Especially you, my sweet sister Mary. P.S. "Happy Mother's Day"

May His peace and grace flow in and through us all, and may we all be found forever in Christ. Amen


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