May 10. 2004

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! Matthew 6:23

There is no denying that there is the foulest stench coming out from parts of the Democratic Party, I really smelled it with LBJ, the stench of death and bombings and Texas justice. Now its taken over America. The more they try to please everybody on the home front, the smellier they get and the more they ignore global exploitation, the fatter they get. All kinds of hateful perversion have been propagated by the Democratic Party. They should know better but they just can't seem to get it right, hypocritical as well as stupid.

For the most part, the Democrats are as bad or worse than the Republicans on the economic front. The corporate elite is propping them both up. Except for all these issues of legislating morality, it's so that I can't tell the difference between a Republican and a Democrat any more, both about to fall into the abyss with the beast. So many false gods and high places to tear down, the children of pride and their sacred cows falling along with them.

This for sure, the Democrats have expended more energy lately defending immoral behavior than they have defending the poor around the world. They seem to have forgotten all the laws of decency, they allowed hedonism and moral relativism to corrupt our young. In the last election, I couldn't vote for either of those clowns and went green. There is a big difference between true democracy and the Democratic Party. Consider this, that perhaps true American Democracy is dead and only economic democracy is true.

Well, I told you that this discussion must go the way of holiness. I am challenging your cherished institutions, your idols, your high places, breathing a little purifying fire. Like I said last time, Christian values follow Christians, not political parties. You have ignored the cries of countless millions of innocent people to protect your cherished institutions. Jesus is coming to overturn them. You already know what Jesus said about these things, false prophets, serving mammon, laying up treasures. Believe me, the image of the beast is worshipped as Jesus. Jesus is looking for a perfect Bride, not one that has compromised with this world system.

I am not speaking to the faithful, the true called out remnant, the ones already sealed but rather to the greater numbers that have yet to come out of Babylon, the church called by His name. I know that I am acting iconoclast but it is to your harm if you are true to our ancestors that stoned the prophets. I understand and love you anyway but you need to come out. The high places must be torn down if we are to lift up Jesus at His glorious appearing.

There is only one King, Jesus. It is a false Jesus that rides upon the beast. My Party is Jesus and I know that I am not alone but many need to wake up and come out and recognize Caesar's kingdom for what it is. Jesus is coming to establish economic justice in the world and the right wing church in America is fighting Him. What is the difference in the long run between the mark on the right hand or the right wing? You have read the Bible, right? This isn't new to you, is it? You just need to apply these prophecies correctly by recognizing the sign of the times, Jesus the poor person. He is not Republican, He is not Democrat, you need to know that what you do is in the will of God or not. Jesus is about to cleanse His temple again, this is our hope for justice among the poor.

Decide where your allegiance is, to the god of Ahab or the way of justice that prevails. If you can't see it because you have been believing a lie, you won't know it; take time to humble yourself and pray. If you're just taking a spiritual nap until the rapture comes, you may never wake up.    

Listen people. Confronting sacred cows make people squirm and want to run away. Look hard at it, what we are discussing is the crucial dividing line between the people of God that have been sealed and the so-called people of God under the delusion. There is no escape, only a choice to make. There is no going back for me. I made a choice: To be known among sinners and wine-bibbers or among the scribes and pharisees. Hmmm... The Lord that luke-warm Christians call Lord is the same Lord that Ahab, Jezebel and the prophets of Baal called Lord and is a prophetic type of the times we live in. Read the prophets, Jezebel is again trying to take Naboth's vineyard but Ahab can't have it this time. The Queen of the South will arise to condemn this generation.

This is all about getting to the truth, not my truth but God's truth. Jesus will crush His enemies under his feet here on earth and He will use people on earth to bring it about. The prophets cry justice and it is through liberality that we understand justice. Ignorance is no longer an excuse. To know this and still equate liberal with licentious is stupid. With that note, we may be able to wind this up and get on to something else. The whole liberal controversy is due to a misunderstanding of the proper definition. If it was left up to the Bible and the dictionary to settle the dispute, there would be no division. Just because it is taught otherwise as worldly church view is no excuse for Christians to get caught up with that.  

Please accept my sincerity by saying that not all Republicans and Democrats have gone the way of Ahab. I would like to encourage you to see what one Congress person is doing. This is the Jubilee Act. Check out what Rep. Waters is doing to bring about the Bible concept of the Jubilee to third world debt.

The Jubilee Act:

I got slapped around a lot this time. I enjoyed it, it's fun. You can see the responses below.

And this is your opportunity to say something, no questions this time, just respond to whatever from the discussion. Maybe we can take on something new.



Charles Wimber here.

A Refuge Network Commons is for a true priesthood of New Covenant believers.

Do you know what the Total Debt Load is for the USA.  Try $66T+

Greenspan has warned about Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

Imagine this sweat shirt for a prepared, priesthood of New Covenant believers:

Front:  "Unrestrained Arrogant Greed (Republicans) Influencing

Back:   "Criminally-irresponsible and willfully ignorant power (Democrats)

Our comfort, complacency and passive corruption in the Household of Faith in the USA is facing this perfect storm from the Lord as He uses necessity to craft virtue from extreme sin:

  1. manufacturing and tech-telecom recessions
  2. energy crisis with blackouts and higher prices
  3. pandemics of various kinds
  4. a drought with wildfires, etc.
  5. a war against terrorism
  6. USA as the largest debtor-nation
  7. homosexual marriages

Can you see a Refuge Network Commons as a place of sacrifice with creative common grace and mercy?

Guild vs profits through firing
Academy vs debt prosperity taxes
Councils vs racial and religious bigotry
Co-op vs media cartel immorality

Housing, finance and derivatives will bring down the GOP (wealthy).

Caesar has been humbled with debt, fraud, bankruptcies with federal, state, county, municipal and foundation cutbacks resulting in lost jobs, benefits, retirements, savings and homes.  This is a seedbed for widespread civic unrest.

I see a passover of mortal danger and a debt, deflation depression.  The Jubilee could be a Refuge Network Commons using PDA-phones with notebook PC blade server work-base stations used for broadband, wireless, digital, meshes networking with mobile IP routing.  Check-out Wi-Fi to WiMax for open source, open architecture, open spectrum and open Web portal services with an open search engine.

Remember the "block captains" during the bombing of London in W.W. II?
Use this strategy for cyber-terrorism as given above.

Brother Charles

After reading this, all I can anyone???



since the time I went to that church full of so called believers I went back a second time with a word from the Lord called "unity" and I believe the word fell on deaf ears.  The pastor was all for the idea of the word but in practice it is another thing.  That is the problem with the church.  They are interested in hearing the Word of God and acting in out in theory but when reality strikes they are someplace else doing just the opposite.

I'm looking forward to the day when the Lord comes for us.  I realize though most that are happy in their walk right on the earth are happy where they are and don't really need the Lord to come and take them away. But what about Him?  Do you think He would like to be married to His bride?


Purity in the church

Jay,  I'm struggling to get to the heart of what you are sharing..It's rather obvious that you are longing to see healing and wholeness come to the Body of Christ, the Church He is building..I pray I'm not going far afield when I share this as He brings a cleansing to His Church..
When Jesus began His public ministry He began by 'cleansing the Temple'....and He ended His ministry before His crucifixion by again 'cleansing the Temple'...I see that is what He's doing right now.

Paul wrote the Church in Corinth to turn the guy who was committing incest (sexual sin) over to satan to the destroying of his flesh that his spirit might be saved..The Church leaders are soft on sin as I see it..Rather than give homos safe haven turn them over to satan and he will destroy their fleshly lust for their own kind..Jesus used drastic
measures at times to deal with immorality... 'Go and sin no more'.
Holiness is our close relationship with the Lord and while we live and practice sin there's no possibility of our having THAT kind of closeness with the Lord..

The cure for 'liberalism and/or conservatism' is a matter of committing our lives to Him in order for Him to 'cleanse our temple' which is exactly what he'd do for us..."Here I am, Lord, cleanse me and make me whole."
No more than earning my salvation, can I be kept by my works..
Let go and let God,
Venida O

Hi Venida,

Yes, I agree that Jesus is cleansing His temple right now. I also saw it coming with the Seattle WTO protests and discussions when this list started, but now it is here. Cleansing as individuals and as the Bride. Restoration in the waste places.

Paul wrote that grace was sufficient to overcome his thorn. I don't believe that we can climb up the wall of total sanctification either but grace can take us over the edge. And it will take that total commitment you mention.



Hi Jay,
          I am studying a relevant subject to the newsletter just now but meanwhile wanted to make the point that there is a false holiness within the affluent, conservative church which is delusional. It is easy to believe you are holy if you won't come near enough to God to hear what He wants to tell you about yourself.
         My experience is that holiness is a moment-by-moment fight, not an initial, one-off positional certainty or a far-off destination. This means that confession and repentance also is on-going and moment-by-moment.
   Sounds like nursery school Christianity but it is easy to slip from that place of holy discomfort when you begin to take your ease in a comfortable lifestyle because the world is sitting upon your spiritual eyelids and making them heavy.
          Then I guess there is a joy that comes from ease and I wouldn't want to be confusing that with the holy joy that comes from knowing in the present tense all your sins covered. For that reason we speak gently to those brethren caught in sin, and are tolerant of them, so that we might win them through into hope via confession and real repentance.
     I truly think because of God's ever-presentness, holiness may be known among the worldly. Hardship presses people into sin they would otherwise not commit. Tolerance and gentleness is a liberal heart in action.
    On repentance, sackcloth is scratchy stuff to wear and without getting the spiritual message right is a garment used to show off in with false humility. It ought not to be a thing to wear to cause us outward misery, so that we draw attention to our solemn faces.
     Sackcloth of the heart is preferable, and needs to be worn at all times. But it is a springboard to power and greater works; a springboard to joy of the heavenly kind, not rooted in the base things of the passing world, but in the victory that is always there for us in our beloved Jesus, oooh!! Praise His wonderful Name!!
    Spiritual sackcloth is a noble and humble garment: no hardship to wear but a privilege to the called of God.
            Love ya,


                                        (Latter Rain Discussion)


   The trouble with political labels is we get bogged down in each others' opinions and partial grasp of the truth as we see it through our own experience. There is something more important than our opinions at stake here, it is a question of revealing the will of God.

   If  we are talking nonsense about liberality being a means to holiness, then opposers need not fear because there will be no Biblical evidence to support our view. But if we are speaking God's truth prophetically, then it is prefigured somewhere prophetically in the word of God.

   Reading 2 Kings 2, the account of Elijah being taken up in the whirlwind, and the double portion of his spirit resting on Elisha, it says something to the church about the times we are in and the pregnancy of blessing to come.

   The corporate Elijah is about to "give birth" to a prophetic son in the church who will be the fulfilment of the desire placed within him by God. This is not about one great man in history departing and leaving his office to another, but about a fruition of God's purpose to be outworked in us in these last days. It is not about one great prophet being replaced by another, and simply "doing more miracles" ; it is about a return of "usury", of prophetic investment, in double proportions returned upon the people of God to fulfil His promises.

     Elisha  had something of the forerunner about him in pressing in with what he knew God was doing in spite of discouragement from Elijah himself: " Tarry here, I pray you" three times said at different locations to Elisha, no doubt in love, but each time met with "As the Lord lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." 2Kings2: 2-6. Elisha was a sticker, and he knew he was in the right. There was a greater purpose on the horizon which God had planned him to be part of. He had seen it in his spirit and was not going to be denied.

    The "sons of the prophets" also had "seen"  the imminent departure of Elijah in the whirlwind,  and sought to question Elisha's  prophetic authenticity in pressing on with his master. But they were in possession only of the partial truth then, and  as today,  sought authentication from each other that what they were seeing was the full measure of the matter. Therein lies a danger for us all, that  we look to each other for approval and to tell us what we want to hear, failing to come to our knees before God and hear first from Him. Only one who does that will have the courage to run with an unpopular message, because he knows his God is with him.

     Elisha had a real heart and a fondness for the poor and oppressed. His love also for Elijah was touchingly apparent  but deeply anchored within his love of God. The miracles that followed from this consecration of service were marked by a divine abundance in God's supply of need in the poverty and heartache of the people that touched his life and his heart in ministry. His understanding of the Father's heart unfolded and was expressed in both tenderness and power, at once merciful and mighty.

         Elisha distinguished himself  as THE "son" of THE prophet, the prophet in Elijah's room, due to inherit the double portion rightfully his as the prophetic first-born.

     So if Elijah was a type of Christ in the OT,  then Elisha can be seen as a type of the church, as the fulfilment  of Christ's work in His bride, through unfailing devotion to his master (Christ) and tireless love towards humanity. We who have Christ also have the firstfruits of the Spirit: the double portion of blessing as to the true Spiritual son from our heavenly Father.

    Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give" is our injunction as New Testament disciples, and Elisha walked this out in Old Testament times. He was ever ready to locate God to supply every need;  passionately incorruptible when offered remuneration and gifts for his services, that the name of God be not blasphemed.

       His certainty of God's abundant liberality to the poor was perfectly expressed in the supply of oil to the poor widow in 2 Kings 4: the  working of the power and the love of God in perfect partnership to supply a desperate need. Elisha was an eager philanthropist  who sought always to understand and help others. His most frequent question might have been "What shall I do for thee?" as it was to this widow in verse 2.

       Now how often in the church do we come up against a desperate need, and how often are we  loving or faithful or devoted enough to locate God to avail us of His supply to meet it?

        Often the two unmistakeable attributes of God which are Love and Power, are not found side by side in the church, and we need each other to see them work together. Lack on either count prevents the delivery of blessing into a needy situation.  Fellowships that know the presence of God's power can at the same time be short on love; fellowships rich in love can be short on demonstrations of Holy power.

         In the church God's power tends to outwork in faith, while His love would tend to produce works. I find it sad that in the church we have played with the power of God pridefully, and failed yet to enter much into the misery of others' needs. Without the love of God to temper that power, we are unable fully to perceive another's need, and do appropriate works. Our high sounding religious words become clashing cymbals, hollow noise.  

       We know (James 2, 14-17) that faith without works is dead. Dead has only one meaning. Unless we pursue the love of God in Christ Jesus, and let Him bear fruit in us through works we will wind up disappointed, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Time to get together on this that we don't fall behind in anything.

            I am thinking that a double portion of Elijah spirit upon us is the full expression of God in His church, and would take us fully into the era of "greater works" and Latter-Rain outpouring, such that the divine attributes of love and power conjoined,  will render the church both merciful and mighty, and be demonstrated in an outflow of powerful faith producing works. This will  prove to the world the reality of the living Christ, Immanuel, God with us.

           At the moment the world does not see too much evidence of Christ in us because we are so fragmented still, and unwilling to humble ourselves and admit that we need each other in the church to combine our gifts and divine attributes and function as we should. We are too often too proud to admit what we lack, and if that, then too proud to receive a supply of what we need.

             The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are prophets that prophesy uncompromisingly enough that the people that dwell on the earth rejoice over their apparent downfall. That is some fiery prophecy that produces such a sustained and extreme  reaction. Note the prophets themselves are clothed in sackcloth: they would have to be, constantly, to be able to stand up in such a fire.

              Isn't it interesting that they are slain "in the street", in a place of ignominy. This would not be those who are greedy for the praise of men, or greedy for position or wealth or social standing. I like to think that these witnesses are a double portion of Elijah spirit,  represented by two anointed branches of the church that, united, display both the love of God, and His power, out on the street in the filth and the reality of the human condition, up close to every imaginable kind of sin and need.

                Figures of divine authority, terrors to works of evil, witnesses to the grace of God.

                     That would tend to upset a people too stiffnecked to change:  maybe it has already started.

                                  Love from Mary

Hi Mary and all,

Yes, your "Holiness" message is very well-written, and true!

I say "AMEN", and couldn't agree more!!

Having been reared in a "Holiness" church, there are all kinds of beliefs.  But true Holiness is a day-by day and minute-by- minute walk. Not a special "dress", or a "once-in-a-lifetime experience", but sackcloth on our hearts ALWAYS.



To my knowledge we don't have "holiness" churches like you do there. I am interested in what they might do in them differently to what I have experienced. Don't often hear holiness messages much either, sad huh. Maybe we could change that.

        Love, Mary

Mary, a "Holiness" church is one who believes in 2 works of grace---1. Salvation, or "getting saved", as most of them put it.  and 2. Sanctification as the second "work of grace".  It is a John Wesley doctrine, and the Methodist church practiced it.  Then the Nazarene Church, Pilgrim Holiness, Church of God, etc.  Many denominations as well as many non-denominations still adopt this as their main belief.

The Pentecostals believe similar, but believe that the sign that you are filled with the Holy Spirit, is talking in tongues.  The other groups do not practice this belief. But many still are filled with God's Holy Spirit. Actually, it's a special empowering of the Holy Spirit to be able to live a Holy life.  Thus,  "Holiness".  And I say "AMEN to this!!

Anyway, it's quite interesting.  When I was a child, there were many "Holiness"  tent meetings, or "Revivals".  Some churches had one every 6 months.  A lot of the professing people believed that men's rules and/or church doctrines, such as a certain dress code, going to movies, dancing, smoking, wearing make-up, etc. are sins and needed to be repented of, and usually by "going forward" in front of all the congregation.  (some of these rules are wrong, of course- just man's rules).  When Revival Meetin' came around, the majority of them would go up to the "mourner's bench" and repent, and get "re-claimed, or saved all over again.  In other words, they considered themselves as "backsliders"!!

Well, it was very interesting to me, as a child, to attend these meetings.  After the "deacon" or "sister So-and So" would get "re-claimed", they would "testify" to the congregation, about their confessing of sin to the Lord.  Some would shed tears, and then "out would come their hankies, and they would wipe off their lipstick and rouge!!  A few would actually get happy and shout or wave their hankies.  I really liked that!!

If you have never been to one of these revival meetings, and especially in the above mentioned Churches, you haven't enjoyed going to church as I did!! I am sure that these "Holiness" or "two works of grace" churches are all over the world. They are just not as strict now as before.

It's just that we are now living in more modern times, and this isn't preached as often.

Well, anyway, I*'m glad I am as old as I am!!! hee hee.


I am a liberal when it comes to my Christianity. But I am not a liberal in the ways of the world and what the political call liberals. I am a true Born again Bible believing, Scantified and Bbtized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, Like the day of pentecost.
 But I am not liberal on issues that create sin in and sign it in to law of the land.
 God Bless
We can endure life's storms if our faith is deeply rooted.

Hi Jay: I guess I missed the context of the use of the word "liberal". I was thinking of liberal in the political arena i.e. Ted Kennedy, and you were using it in the sense of material giving i.e. God loves a cheerful giver.

God Bless:  R E B.

If I correctly understand you, you are trying to apply the 'scriptural' use and understanding of 'liberal' to our political ideals? And therefore incorporate them into the 'church'? I admit I do not understand 2Cor 9:13 being blanketedly applied to this. As the use of the word 'liberal' in this verse concerns (totally) of our giving and supporting of those both within (mainly) and without the body of believers in Yeshua as Messiah. Nothing what-so-ever to do with secular or political ideals and persuasions. But an certain work which is an witness of the faith we hold and of the indwelling of the Ruach HaQodesh. Political and secular ideals and debates have nothing to do with us in the body if we are truly 'set-apart ones' in Him. As we are called to an theocracy rather an republic or democratic rule, and this under our Father, Yahweh, through His Son, Yeshua the Messiah of Israel. An heavenly Kingdom, set apart from the rest of the world and her ways.

Don't mis-understand me, I am not coming against what you have written, but have only recently been receiving you posts again (the last 2) after several month's of not receiving (since I last crashed). So I very well could be missing the point and understanding of this thread. If so I apologize and request your forgiveness for my presumption.

Now saying that, I see (if we use the secular understanding of this) that BOTH conservative and liberal are BOTH correct and in error. The balance is the problem. For in the scriptural understanding of conservatism verses liberal there IS NO VERSES. They BOTH work hand in hand towards an balanced and holy (set apart) end.

Liberal in scripture (the best for THIS thread I found) was indeed from 2Cor 9:13, from strongs #05081 > nadiyb, which means noble, willing, generous. Which is one of the evidences of the indwelling of the Set-Apart Spirit (Ruach HaQodesh). I found it interesting of your use of illiberal, for I never had heard the word before, so I looked it up.  It means 'narrow-minded about cherished opinions'. I realize that 'our cherished' opinions are most often carnal desires. But in an sense this is also what we are called to in the foundational truth's of our faith. Uncompromising in our proclamations of truth and rejection of lies and falsehood. Conservative in our walk in Messiah which is part of our 'set-apartness'.

All these 'work together' to teach us (in a sense) the difference between the set-apart and profane as we lay hold of truth and walk in it. With an eye full of light (generosity) and not dark (greedy). So we LOVE the homosexual, etc... yet we do not participate or accept the sin, but encourage the truth of the matter and yet still love. Unacceptable by this present world. It does not (and cannot) understand. The world equates punishment and judgment with hate and rejection, while we are to see it as part of His mercy and grace and love. Indeed, most of the 'church' does not really understand or walk this.

So I see that the secular (political) and set-apart ones will not and cannot cross this bridge. To do so is compromise with our walk itself. Though I believe we CAN speak to these issues and of our own opinions and ideals in this. As they are reflective of the times we live in and of the condition of the world and even the 'church' herself.

just MHO



Hi Laz,

Good points. Yes, there is more to liberality than giving to the poor but some political ideals are thought out from an apostolic perspective and democracy includes that. We will not see a true theocracy in this present world system except in our hearts, not until after the Lord puts His enemies under His feet. Until then, democracy is the best we have, especially when a country is predominately poor and justice demands it. Basically you have touched on the tenets of the theology of liberation but remember this, God is doing it. He is not having everyone do it but I believe that the restoration is here and we have work to do in establishing justice. When His servants do His will, they are hearing His voice and follow His spirit, not the spirit of the world. The spirit of liberality must invade our whole being or it isn't there at all. That is why Jesus said that you cannot serve both God and mammon, they work against each other.

Illiberal in my Webster's II edition has a different definition: "Narrow minded and prejudiced." It means more than that though when it denotes miserly behavior.



I need to say that using terms such as liberal or conservative is simply a way to label. If the truth be known we are all liberal in some areas and conservative in other areas. We are to have relationship with God through Jesus. Speaking of the sins mentioned in in response. My response is that we reject sin but again we all sin and fall short of the glory. I need a Savior. I have to fight the flesh daily. I have had God do some amazing things in my life, But the one thing he has not done is take the battles away. But I know he is always with me in the midst of each fiery situation. KEEP the Faith

Tim Harvey

Hi Tim,

I agree with you, it is a constant fight. I feel that I have taken on too many battles sometimes but there is a lot of opposition. You are bringing up a good point about sin and this has to be one of the important things on the discussion. I will pass it along for sure.


Jay, it seems that conservative and liberal need to be defined between two people discussing it in order to accurately and productively discuss the issue.  And in regards to the Bible being perfectly clear, I have heard this said several times since I started my walk in the Lord and I find that the more I know, the more I realize I don't know, which brings you back to the Spirit giving life to the dead letter.  And I find this comes according to the Lord's timing, which probably has many issues weighing into it, such as obedience in many areas.  And sometimes when I try to share something that I find absolutely delicious, the response is sometimes a blank stare - as someone told me recently - not reading off the same page.  If I were to define liberal it would be tolerance of another's understanding.  Conservative - would be doing the best you can according to your understanding of the Word.  If I were to define these two according to the world, I wouldn't know where to start.

Christ's Light in all the spaces of your heart,


Hi Marilyn,

We do need better definitions and most important is what you mention about understanding. What they say in the business world also applies to the spiritual world "knowledge is power." That knowledge of course has to come from a proper understanding and tolerance is part of that. Our understanding can be faulty but as long as we rely on His understanding and not our own, we will find the truth.



latest newsletter regarding liberality in  The Church, I must be a liberal.  For I have felt for a  long  time it is very important  for Latin Rite & Eastern  Rite Catholic, Armenian  Catholic, Orthodox  & Protestant Christianss to have an avenue or  a forum to discuss and to study "The Holy Bible" that  includes 'all'  of the books of  it. Not just from a viewpoint of 66 books, but all of the books including "the lost books" of  The Holy Bible   including the books of The Holy Bible that were deliberately left out, because of their controversial nature and contents.  As I  have found that many Christians are afraid (for lack  of a better word) to stretch too far from what they have been taught and from what they know about The Holy Bible  and about other Christian denominations, in particular, of  the Catholic persuasion or      perspective. Thank you for opening the door to this issue and to this subject matter.
God bless you for your wisdom and for your courage to bring about the real unity in the Christian Church. Amen. Amen.  Amen.
 Love  in Christ,


In a message dated 4/19/2004 12:38:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes:

> We need to take the Bible at
> it's word to see that God will be exalting the liberals in these last
> days and that we are to be a holy people.

Hi Jay:  I miss the point in this sentence, unless I don't understand the meaning of exalting. Maybe you can explain further.

R. E. Blevins


Hi R.E.,

Good question

There aren't too many references of liberal in the Bible but a couple that are refer to this. The first one is in Proverbs 11:25 "The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself."

And the important one is found in Isaiah 32:5 "The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful."

A "churl" is a miserly person. To understand this in the end-times, the entire chapters of Isaiah 30-33 should be read in context.

Thanks for asking.



When I was converted to Christianity 12 years ago the Lord put a Word in my heart to teach in a missionary baptist church, then He sent me to a convention of these pastors.  I asked the Lord (as a child in the spirit), "How can I preach salvation to a church full of believers?"  He said, "What you see is not what you get."

The upper echelon in the church was excited that the Lord would send a white missionary into a black missionary baptist church with that word; he kept saying, "I don't know who you are but I know you are from God."

With all the politics and hype going on in the church I think the people should be more concerned with their own lives than the lives of others. Are we saved?  Are we going to hell?  Are we holy?

Will Jesus look at us and say, "Go away you workers of iniquity, I never knew you?"

See the pharisees in the church of today are SO LIBERAL in what they say and the way they act they think they are pious and righteous and can do all things.  But a day is coming that they will have a rude awakening.



Hi Duane,

Many churches, white, black, missionary, holiness or whatever have one thing in common. They really do want to do the right thing. The veil that is over the church today sometimes puts ignorance and the flesh in the way of that. I began my site preaching to the believers. I wasn't going to dumb it down or make it into the same tired old salvation message either, it had to be meat but some people aren't ready for that, still babes in Christ. The message to the seven churches is to repent and hold fast until He comes. We are teach the nations all things that He has commanded and for today, restore what the devil has taken away. The devil has stolen much in the church and it will take some contrition to get things right. You are from God, just keep it as simple as when you received it from the Lord. In the mean time, get wisdom and knowledge, if you feel lacking in that, ask of God.



I would like to thank you for the ministry you fulfill so faithfully on the Web! You, with your letters and articles, are a blessing to me and, I am sure, many others.

There are so much theology and many pet religious beliefs that we have been brain-washed with over the years, not so much by the very sincere Church Fathers, as by their disciples that have never heard from God but tried to dish-up the stale bread of past revelations [and even incorrect Scripture interpretation]. It is good to discuss these things and to have open ears to get fresh revelation from God [present truth?!].

May God bless you to be a blessing to many more thousands!



Boy, you sure said a mouth full here Herman. Those "sincere" church fathers are the fathers that I believe that we are to be restored to. Apostolic of course but throughout history, there have been those faithful teachers. I have many favorites that I am almost tempted to list. It is that present truth for every time for every person, not every one hears it or even acknowledges it but always present. I can hear you listening, thanks.

Malachi 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Hi group,

What I am getting from responses this time on the latter rain list is kind of a short list to discuss. We discussed the need to properly define what a liberal truly is and I see a few recurring themes. Basically the entire definition of a liberal is in a holy sense already. It is as if the pharisees and sadducees of this world did a smear campaign in the 20th century.

Short list:
Tolerant of others.
Deliverance and liberation from sin is is involved.
Giving, not constrained by selfish motives.
Open minded.
Progressive, not tied to tradition.
Heart in ministry for the poor and oppressed.

I wonder if personal holiness is part of being liberal or not. Good to discuss because I'm not sure. Liberal to me is not just who I am but what I do. Any kind of liberality would include doing rather than being. I think that the church is spending much too much time pointing their fingers at the personal sins of others, that can't be liberal. What I see here however is a concern that liberality will somehow release the church from the responsibility to recognize and denounce sin. Tolerating the sin is seen as token acceptance and leading to more sin and I guess that is the way that it happened. The church has different responsibilities however, liberality may be very important but recognizing and denouncing sin is one of them.

Along that thought, I see conservative christians in this country always talking about the liberal media. The press aren't being liberal at all, I don't know what to call it. What many people see from the media is a lot of immorality and lies and since they are always concerned about the sins of others, they bring out the liberal tag. I don't see the sense except for tolerance being confused with that. The fact is that the media is controlled by corporate advertising and if they aren't anything but conservative right-wing corporate lackeys, they don't get the money. Economic justice in the world is not reported fairly so why are they called liberal?\


God Is a Democrat?

You used to be a slightly deluded but decent seeker of truth. Now you have become an irrational, politically correct, totally deluded zealot. God is a Democrat and all Republicans are bourgeois, mediocre, opposed to progress, self serving and intolerant, to use a few of _your_ words?

The Beast of Revelations and Daniel is a religious system which joins with a corrupt political system. It is described in the Bible as Jezebel. Jezebel in the Old Testament was a princess of a heathen country who married Ahab, I believe. She worshipped Baal, and persecuted the prophets. She was totally committed to her god. She is a picture of the marriage of religion (the beast) and civil powers (the dragon). The beast is alive and well - and you have joined it. If you want some evil people, you ought to look at some of the Democrats. What is the difference? The Republicans are evil revel in it. The Democrats are evil and hypocritical - and seem compelled to somehow persuade people that they are 'good' and 'care about the people.' They don't.

The Bible says that 'seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by they name, to take away our reproach.' Women in the Bible often mean churches - from 'Wisdom has builded her house' to Jezebel to the Great Whore of Babylon. This means that churches will take hold of one man (Jesus). They will eat their own bread (believe in their own doctrines, whether it be communion, baptisms, reincarnation, whatever) and they will wear their own apparel (their names, like Catholic, Baptist, Episcopalian, whatever). They will never agree on doctrine, but they will get together saying, "We will all support social good causes. We will all fight poverty, etc."

You will know God's true house of worship because it will not join Mammon and will concern itself with the things of God, and not with Mammon. You are probably too far into the religious system (the Pharisees of today) to have enough spirit of God in you to know the truth when you hear it. You once sought after God. And you became a proselyte. Now you are a twofold child of Hell with no Spirit left in you at all. You have missed God.

Don't try to convert me. I have God. I certainly don't want to hear from you. Remove me from your mailing list, and trouble me with your blather no more.

Angela Allberry

Dear Jay,
I just wanted to tell you that I was quite upset with your criticicism of the Republicans.  I am not a Republican and I really don't have any interest in politics, but I did not think what you said about the Republicans was fair.  

Have you ever talked to a Muslim?  There are some extreme Muslims that will tell you that all Christians are killers.  "Christians" - or churches that call themselves by that name - have killed millions and millions of innocent people!  (mostly a certain church that reinged during the Dark Ages.)  So all Christians are killers and murderers!  We can take it even further and say that all Christians are serving the Devil.  Only a person who is serving the Devil could do what those Christian murders have done!  Christians are murders and they are all a bunch of hypocritical, greedy, gluttons!    

OF COURSE NOT!!!  Christians are not all murderers, gluttons, hypocrits and devil worshippers.  In fact, most are not.  It is true that there have been "Christian" churches that committed horrendous crimes, but that doesn't mean that all Christians are that way.  
And neither is it true that all Republicans are the way you have described!  Some are I am sure.....maybe the greater portion, but there are many who are not!  And it is unfair for you to accuse them like you did and sink them all in the same boat.  Like I said, I am not a Republican.  I think all Politics is an ugly business and a lot of politicians are only working for their own selfish purposes, but if you're going to call down fire on the Republicans then you had better be prepared to call down fire on the Democrats too!  Be Fair!  Who was more righteous, Hitler or the Devil?  Of course, they are both evil!  And as far as politics goes, that's about the way I view it.  But if you're going to crack down on the evil, then you had better crack down on both sides!  

Also, keep in mind that when you say things in such a sharp and condemnatory way such as in this last email, it really turns people off....even if what you say has some truth in it.  It savors of a spirit different from what Christ manifested when He was on the earth.  By the way, have you read in history books about the political party during Christ's time?  The Roman Empire was one of the most cruel and wicked government that could exist.  But Christ never said anything against the Roman government.  He hardly even mentioned it at all.  Even when others asked Him what He thought about the recent atrocities comitted by the Romans He turned the question a different way and spoke to them instead about their own spiritual need.  His Kingdom was truly not of this world.  He was not in any respect a political activist!  If He had been, then the Jewish leaders would have accepted Him with open arms.  That was what they were looking for.  They wanted a Messiah that would revolutionize the
 current political system and in it's place set up a political system that was run by God's people.  Wouldn't that have been great if the worshipers of the True God could have run the government?  Wouldn't it be great today if the Christians could run the government?  But that's not what Jesus came for.  He had nothing to do with the government or politics.
Please consider this.

You go Jay!

For years we have been told that holiness is separation from the world. What good is that to anyone if we haven't separated ourselves from the world's values?

If the R wing church votes and thinks and acts according to its pocketbook it has not been touching the reality of God. It has created an elitist club that has withdrawn itself from the world and all its responsibility towards the ones Jesus died for; it seeks to only serve itself and increase and perpetuate itself. That is not the church but a counterfeit. That is not Holy Ghost power, but the power that is in the world.

It is up to its neck in Gospel impotence because it won't get its hands dirty and minister where the need is: on the street, on the shop floor, in the ghetto, in the gay bars. It won't do that because it wouldn't want those people in its number, they are too "dirty".

We can all sit around saying the right things, and forming committees to plan outreach, and stating our position on e.g. homosexuality and abortion etc. - but saying is not doing; flowering is not the same as bearing fruit. The road to hell is paved with spiritual sounding statements that have not borne fruit in any kind of Godly action.

Godly action necessitates our coming up against the world, and bringing change, through the power of the Holy Ghost. How often I hear it said that we hate the sin and love the sinner. Yeah but only the sinner that sins in a way we find acceptable, behind a veneer of respectability huh. Those ones out there that need us and have apalling lives see past the hypocrisy because they don't profit by what the squeaky clean church says to them. And they don't profit because it is operating in a fleshly power that cannot change things.

Saying the right things satisfies ourselves and our own egos. "Doing them" in acts of liberality that Jesus requires of us naturally draws us away from the squeaky clean ones: they become suspicious of us, and then hostile as their spirit clashes with Jesus in the ones that are willing to truly lay down their lives, their agendas, their self-interest in preference to those who have need.

Unless we get it that Jesus came to change things, and that He is speaking to us from the lowly ones and the ones who challenge us outside of our elitist little club - well, we won't be changed, will we? And God will say in due time, OK you chose that false way, you can keep it.

Love, Mary

Well said.

Doug Green

Philippians 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death.

Remember: "Judge not lest ye be judged"

Jeanette Scott

You liberals are certainly into name calling..Why is that?  You're a voice for tbe accuser, it seems to me..
Who made you judge, Jay?
In Him,
Venida O'Nan

Hi Jay!  This is from my husband Lee.  I know you were looking for feedback, and I wasn't into it.  Since this was important to you, I felt my husband should look it over. I'm just his typist.   Love in Christ, Yolanda

I take issue with what you are saying let me go back to the beginning of the Republican party which started ten miles from where I grew up.  It was formed as an abolitionist party to stop slavery.  Their first president was Abraham Lincoln.

In 1964 Al GoreSr., Robert Byrd among others tried to filibuster the 1964 Civil Rights Act so LBJ went to the Republicans who pushed the Civil Rights Act through.  The Democrats came up with welfare which did not give poor people a way out of poverty, but kept them in it and deceived them that the Democrats are helping them.

The Republicans sent welfare reform to President Clinton's desk three times before he signed it under pressure, but the Democrats would make you believe that it was President Clinton who came up with welfare reform.  If the Republicans are the religious right and the Democrats who always want to be opposite and take the opposite view of the Republicans, then that makes them the atheist left.  I would much rather have a president who prays in his office than one who has sex acts in his office and denies that it is sex and now oral sex runs rampant among our teens.

I would continue to vote according to the moral agenda.  Anyone who votes democratic condones abortion and homosexuality.  I cannot vote for these things.  I also do vote for lower taxes.  I never voted for President Clinton because one day he said he was a Baptist that he prayed and read his bible.  Then the next day he said he was for homosexual civil rights.  I knew then he was not to be trusted.  One of the first things he did was have the largest tax increase in history of this country, but the deficit did not get taken care of until the Republicans took control of the Senate.  Then there was a surplus which meant we were overtaxed.

I think Bush made many mistakes in his presidency, but he is the lesser of two evils.  I will not vote for a man who put our soldiers in harms way by publicly protesting the war.  And since that time has continually voted against the military.  Its not about voting Republican.  It is about voting for people who will represent the people and not their political party.  So I will once again vote republican.

One more example the 911 commission is not about national security but about the Democrats making it a political agenda.  Otherwise, why are there people on the commission from the Clinton administration?  It is wrong.  I hope you take these things in consideration and know I am speaking from my heart and also know I pray who to vote for before I vote.  

Lee Ballard

You have just offended about half of your email list.  Why get into politics?  You are not going to change my mind or anybody's if they have half a mind of their own.  I vote for who ever I think will make the best decisions.  It has been a long time since I voted for a democratic president and I doubt seriously that I will this time.  We have a president who believes in prayer.  Why change?  I really like the latter rain website.  Stick to the things of God and stay out of politics, please.


Boy Jay you really have gone off the deep end, this time. That is false rumors and Doctrine you are spreading. Republican's are at least for abortions, Homosexual activity, The democrat party has gone straight to hell in thier beliefs. the economy is better than it has been in the last 20 years, or have you been watching the news of these bias news commentors. I tell you if you cote a democrat ticket you are voting for murdering babies, and the ACLU is trying to stop all Christian Activity and the democrats are going fo it at a speed of 150%. I would be afraid to vote a democrat ticket, I would be afraid of the wrath of god. I do not believe in the party's beliefs any more. YOu need to be better informed, before you put the lacks of that over the net. I was a democrat for years, and active in the party. When God condemmend me for voting for Clinton, I said I would never vote for a democrat again. And I won't/ At lease our President is honest and up frot about everything, And I do believe he is a Born again Christian. That was more than clinton did, he couldn't run the country for haveing affairs. the democrat party upheld him all the way. Is that the kind of things you believe in. If that is rue you can wipe me off your list. I do not appreciate the trash.
 God bless you and I pray that he forgives you for your biased ideas.

This is scary; I would not know Jay if I met him on the street, and I am sure that after reading "Republicans" again I could find a few points of disagreement. On the first reading my only comment would be "Right on!" As a lifelong Democrat I am not sure we stack up much better. Somehow honorable Democrats are labeled as FAR LEFT by those that claim no alliance to either party, Democrats or Republicans. We as a group let the Right wing do that to us.

There is no debate or discussion where most Christian Conservatives are concerned. The question is always Clifton, the answer is always Clifton, if all else fails, they jump up and down and scream Clifton! Clifton! Clifton! I say to them "Get over it.." But, as long as it works why change?

No, I do not believe God is a Democrat. My hope for eternity, my salvation, does not depend on the Republican party either. Ever Republican that has mentioned "Kinder and Gentler" has raised the level of division more than anyone or anything I know of. Divide and conquer is still the order of the day.

Thank you Jay, thank you latter-rain staff.
Don Ray

Jay is it safe to say that you are a democrat?



  So, because I am a republican, I am now mental nut-case, who does not believe in the WORD of God,   know how to run a business effectivley, am no longer truly moral, and have taken the Mark of Satan? I think not. I do not believe in socialism either. It is socialism that brings about oppression. That is what communism is birthed from, and that is what the Democratic party is all about. I am not a right extemeist either!!! I do not believe in killing babies (I do not think that murder is a right), nor do I believe in Gay marriage, but I accept Civil Unions because there is Homosexual persons whether I like it or not, I do not judge , nor do I criticize them, but love them with the love of Christ.

  Also, if you look at Democrats track record, you will see that they want our freedom GONE! They want us to live under a suppressive, socialistic societ, where freedom is not granted, and they are in total control of everything! They are the ones who have stolen the role of God! Before the democrats started their "FREEDOM STEALING" socialistic programs, people looked to the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ to fulfill any need that there might be, also, there was no welfare to keep people from working. If you wanted to eat, you had to work. Look it up, it is in the Bible. Welfare has only made the government bigger and more powerful, and instead of looking to God to fulfill their needs, they now look to their man-made god, the government.

  Also, Mr. Jay, I believe that it is the far left extremeist democrats (including Kenney na d Clinton) who want to take every kind of religeous freedom that we have away! Time after time, they have partnered with the Devil's tool, The ACLU, to take God out of our society, a nation that was established upon the belief in God and literally based upon His Word! Every important historical document mentions God, and don't bring up that: "seperation of Church and state" stuff, because you can find it NO WERE in the Constitution of the United States of America, it is just the Athiest dreams that it is! It was the US Supreme Court in the 1890s that said that "America was a Christian Nation!" I am not saying though that Republicans are God's party. I do not believe God votes one way or the other. At the same time, I will not be apart of a group of individuals that bring forth the moral decay of America, nor do I wish to put them into power.

"God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that the unjust attempts to destroy the one, may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both." -- John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration of Independence


PS: I forgive you in the name of Jesus.


Being a christian conservative, I take great offense to your comments.
Please delete me from your future mailings. Sorry that you can't see the real truth.
Anyone voting for the platform that your party stands for is in great need of prayer.


Tom Bias Jr

I must confess Jay that I was not a little shocked at the prejudice of this one. I had no idea you had an personal axe to grind with the republican party, as the first post on liberals I thought was more directed to the difference between secular and religious thought. I guess I was mistaken. Me thinks you paint with too broad a brush.

You must have a very small circle of republican and conservative relations. For most I know do not fit that which you accused them of.

As far as political persuasion goes, I was a very strong democrat on the very liberal end for most of my younger life. That is until I came to Know Yeshua and be of the faith and realized that the stand i took just could not line up with my faith. I became a very strong conservative republican during the Reagan years. And over the years have come to understand that neither party is fully in line with the way a follower of the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph should go. Both have Part, neither have it right. For man's political natures cannot live up tot he standards of Messiah, but only of this world.

I came from a long line of democrats, my dad, my grand dad, etc.... Before dad was 'promoted to glory' he confessed to me that for the first time he voted republican when Reagan became President. He said that in his earlier years, and his dads, the ones who called themselves republicans today are more like those who were democrats in their earlier years. That the democrats has totally gone off in a direction he never believed possible.

If you would check out the histories of the parties, you will find this to be true. I am now neither democrat or republican, but one who truly believes that WHOEVER is put over us in authority is placed there by Yah for His purposes and intentions. Whether for judgment or blessings. And for now, the President we have is the right man for the job placed before him. A man unafraid to proclaim his faith in Yeshua or to allow others to see his heart concerning issues. Has Bush made mistakes? Yes! We have never had a president who has not, never will either. I hope and pray that whatever is causing your heart to be so unforgiving and unrelenting towards these will be loosed in Yeshua's name! and replaced with love, mercy, compassion. amen

Shabbat Shalom

I'm with you Jay.  I can't figure out why they can't see.  Hang in there kindred spirit.

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