Victory in Jesus

November 21, 2002

Hardly any response to my call for victories but what is here is filled with the same love for the people that filled Daniel's heart. I perhaps asked the wrong question because our victory in Christ has already been accomplished at the cross. Although we may still lose the battles, the war has already been won so I will leave it at that. When the kind of love that the Bible teaches us to have permeated the church to the point that we are all one, the Bride is ready to join the saints in our New Jerusalem.

There are siftings going on and trials to get through. We easily offend and we get easily offended and then we become disjointed with other saints around us. Instead of humbling ourselves, we are too proud to lift others or be lifted ourselves so we separate from those that offend without changing what is causing the offence. Bearing each other's burdens and offering humility instead of selfish authority is key here but not so easily done. Eph 4:3 "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." Matthew 18:7 "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"

If we are truly walking in the spirit, we have the right to be called the Sons of God. We must not be going about thinking "I" am a Son of God and I must disciple you but that "we" are the Sons of God (daughters too) and we must disciple each other.

Think of the elders that have cast their crowns at the foot of Jesus' throne. Would they still be Sons of God if they had not relinquished their crowns? Moot question. They would not be relinquishing their power and authority unless they were led by the Spirit of God to humble themselves. The Lord is separating the spiritual church from the carnal one and it upon this precise issue of pride that He is doing it, He is sifting the nations with the sieve of vanity. It is right at the neck, if our heads are too big to get through, we are not fit for the kingdom and will err. Is it as simple as that? You know it is.

We must be led by the Spirit and we must be tolerant of the failures of others or we alienate them and ourselves. God is raising up a people to follow Him. We must love each other unconditionally. Easy concepts but the decision is in our own way of doing things or God's. There is no other way.

Responses below but they are mainly not responses but what I could glean out of the dialogues that pertain to the question. There is victory here but so much dialogue and irrelevant controversy that I had to clip out excerpts and cut the rest. We discussed the church, Babylon, coming out, historical judgment, Toronto airport, feelings, total depravity and many other things but I only included what I thought pertained more to the question. I pray that I have done people justice and only allowed victorious love to shine through without the offences. Topics are being taken out of thin air lately and left to chance or providence to guide us. Have we run out of controversial issues on the latter rain list? A quick look at the archives yields a gold mine of succesful dialogue in healing division but what we are facing now is pretty much a rehash of the same. What are the divisive issues that you feel the church is facing?

No question this time, only a hope and prayer that God will continue to lead on this list. If you have issues that you feel should be discussed, hit reply and let me know.


Hello Jay,

I enjoy reading your posts through this list serve very much and this one in particular speaks very deeply to me. You have spoken about the greater picture in bringing about this restoration. For me, it looks like a large puzzle coming together as everyone assembles themselves in the order God has called them. Everyone brings their puzzle piece to stand in the faith they are given to stand upon. As each puzzle piece is snapped into place, we see a greater manifestation of Jesus and it is Him that is revealed to those who we labor for.

Throughout this journey into destiny, I have learned to obey the voice of God even when it brought consequences to my life. There is the joy of connecting with others to experience covenant relationships and there is the heartache of separation. Separation comes sometimes just to teach obedience when we do not understand it's purpose. In this glorious journey for us all, our only means of getting there is complete dependency upon God. Even as we are separated, we see these members "standing" on their faith to activate the word given them from where they are purposed to stand. In knowing that, we see that we are still "one" within the Body and are blessed in this knowledge.

I was shocked and saddened to hear about Adrienne Hawthorne. My husband Mike left us on the 14th of this month to enter into his eternal rest as well. I fought this separation from my husband for a very long time, but have learned to see that we are still "one" because the blood of Christ is the eternal Life that keeps us united.

God bless you Jay, and I pray God's blessings upon you to continue in the faith as you have been.

Cindy Allen

Thanks Cindy,

It really is all about "in the order God has called them." Unity is acting as one body. Every day, we see more and more people of God understanding this. We suffer together as one, also praise and worship as one. Doing it is easy once we start doing it, especially out in the open, proclaiming it on the rooftops and into the streets. Those inside themselves need to get out more. There is a lot of fresh air out here.


Lord, teach us again how to love each other. By your light make us see into the darkness of our understanding: make us know our deficiencies.

Our love is the taking kind, and yours is ever giving, wholly giving; Our love lasts a moment and forgets, and yours is forever; Our love cannot wait through difficulties, and your love never changes, never gives up; Our love is so selective while your love reaches all men; Our love struggles with mixtures of flesh and spirit, while yours is wholly pure. Lord it was you who planted that seed of divine love within us, we are looking for some signs that it has been growing -where is the first growth that would identify it to the world? and then where is the blossom? where is the fruit? We have settled for something smaller and more insubstantial, and the wind and cold was a threat to it. Into our hearts plant now the patience, gentleness, kindness, and mercy that we so often lack. We have spent too long agreeing on this and are no nearer action. You will have to tear us a little but plant those things there Lord Jesus, in fertile soil, and cause them to grow.

Lord we have seen some of the risks associated with the expression of your love in us and we have run away at the first hurdle. We were surprised by our own weakness and sinfulness when that cock crew in the hollow room of our heart. We were not pure. We tried to grasp hold of fleshly comforts that would keep us self-sufficient - not expressing our need, not listening to others, not humbling ourselves and washing each other's feet, denying our brethren the opportunity to minister to us, obstinately refusing to wash the feet of the Christ again, or be washed by Him. We have tried to make it your fault, how attractive is the prayer closet suddenly when we wish to turn our backs..

Lord please give us new courage to trust each other, and to risk ourselves and our vulnerabilities in a safe fellowshipping environment. Why have we not yet provided this? How are we still so reluctant to share ourselves? The blame is among us here that so many remain silent. We are sorry Lord. Forgive us for our hardness and our coldness.

You have told us and we know we are not to be many masters, not to lord it over each other, but to prefer each other and to humble ourselves. You have said and we know that our responsibility is to love each other with a pure heart, fervently. Oh turn up that heat Lord and cause us to burn for you and for each other, until we melt together, and none can separate us. Lord we are not asking for something that has been already done, we have left too many disappointed by waiting for the past to return to us. Draw close to us now Lord Jesus, in your proximity we feel the heat, the sin falls away and is smoke. Accomplish your purposes in us, and may we be never the same again, in Jesus' Mighty Name, AMEN

Love from Mary


My heart over flowed with joy while I read this. My friend God has truly blessed you, Your words are truth and are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. The one thing the Lord showed me of Daniel's heart was that he never separated himself from the sin of Israel, He always said we or our" he was numbered amongst the transgressors ", reminds me of someone else, amen! Likewise we to should follow with the same heart, for if one part of the body is sick the whole body is sick also.

God Bless You My Brother!, May the Lord increase your heart for more Divine Revelation.

Rev. Stephen Jarchow

We can each of us support the agencies of goodwill at work in the world. Chief among these is the Church of Christ, whose business is the ministry of reconciliation. And chief among the activities of the Church in the interest of world peace is the work of the foreign missionary whose task is by word and life to interpret the nations to each other: magnificent the work he has done and is doing to this end.

We can each of us pray for world-peace, and there is nothing which needs more constantly and more earnestly to be done by all men of goodwill. For prayer, let us remember, is not a formula, it is a life. It is not merely petition, it is a covenant and a program. One cannot offer the Lord's Prayer sincerely without becoming a daring adventurer in the world of goodwill. Our most constant and persistent prayer may well be that of Elisha. As we think today of the young men and women who are to be the makers of the new world, as with ever-broadening horizon we think of the multitudes confused by false values, sheep without a shepherd, shall we not pray with the prophet, 'Lord, open the eyes of the young man that he may see, Lord, open the eyes of all the peoples of the world that they may see.' Then in the records of eternity it may be written as of old, 'And the Lord opened their eyes, and they saw. And behold the mountains were full of horses and chariots of fire round about'---the invisible but invincible resources that are ever theirs whose hands are in the hand of the living God.


To all from me, krissy. I just wanted to share this with all of you. I know now with no doubt in my mind that this is a group knit together by God. I tried to unsubscribe from here yesterday, but I got this message today. What's funny is that the Lord really has a great sense of humor, because I will get his direction and some other things I'm not ready for to me, but in his eyes, I am primed and ready for this.

So let the healing flow through this site, and let your healing words penetrate where needed in Jesus name. Thank you all for praying for me, and thanks Mary for not giving up on me.. So I just wanted to share with you that God is at work even as we speak, there is nothing and no-one to hard deaded for him!!!! This vision from the Lord I needed to read! God Bless you all!


Dear Krissy, The Lord would have you look up to Him. He has great things in store for you. Listen to His still, small voice. He has never failed an honest seeker, and He will not fail you! I speak peace and joy unto your soul. There is so much confusion all around. Men say "this is the way, that is the way,", and "come this way, ands follow me" and sometimes it causes great confusion. We get our heads so full of messages, doctrines and ideas from others. I know this as a fact!! I've been there. But I do know that if you will pray, and keep your eyes on Jesus, things will beautifully fall into place. I love you. And I am praying for you and all of us!

Marilyn Williams (from central Kansas where the Sun was shining all day today. Made me feel "good!)".

Tonight my heart was heavy, but it was uplifted by all your sharing of your riches. For that I am grateful. Many a time I feel like I am alone in this area, my present habitation in the states, but through you I know that you feel and experience the same things I do, even though we are seemingly few. That is becoming a great comfort.

Like those of old I feel compelled to speak, but in this time I know, that for some this will not fall on dear ears and they will be able to see what has become manifest in my heart.

Isa. 2:4.---' And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.'

The bright expectation of this paragraph is found not only in the Book of Isaiah but in Micah, and in the self-same words. It was, perhaps, common to prophetic minds in that age.

When the fulfillment was to be looked for is not quite clear: 'in the latter days,' say both Isaiah and Micah. Certain it is that the immediate future of Jerusalem offered the sharpest contrast to the prophet's picture. The city had become corrupt; long years of security and prosperity had bred luxury, social oppression, contempt of God. It did not surprise Isaiah that in his own time there was no apparent advance towards the ideal of his vision. Had he not known from the day of his call that his testimony would be unheeded? But whether men would bear or forebear, he must speak; indeed, the tragedy of his lot was this, that he must speak, knowing that men would not hear. This picture of an era of peace and brotherhood stood in sharp contrast to the realities, and even to the tendencies, of his time, but he left it as a true God-given vision to find fulfillment in God's time and way.

The paragraph from which the text is taken is among the most familiar of Biblical passages to many of us. The singular beauty of the vision has appealed to us, and its hope has stirred us. It focused the expectation of our earlier years. The spirit of Jesus strengthens our faith in the ideal of the ancient prophet, and our vivid belief in the attainment of the ideal was part of our belief in His living presence. Then came many wars in our life times, shattering of our anticipations. And now again our hopes are being threatened, and it behooves us to consider whether these hopes are in vain and our aspirations noble but impracticable. So we raise the question: Must wars continue to the end of time? There are three difficulties which hinder men from giving a hopeful reply.

1. AN ERRONEOUS INTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURES.---The view is still held that it is almost impious to work for the establishment of lasting peace, because the outlook of the New Testament is upon an era of war without earthly limit. The authority of Jesus is pleaded on behalf of this gloomy expectation; special interpretations of the Apocalypse are adopted; various passages from the Epistles are cited. To meet the position fully would demand an entire series of sermons. We will only say in general terms that nothing can be more hopeless than the effort to get out of the language of Jewish Apocalypse, whether in the Gospels or elsewhere. The value of apocalyptic sayings is not that we take them as literal descriptions, but that we get back to the thought that is at the heart of Jewish eschatological notions, that only with God are all things possible, that not by human power alone can great deliverances be achieved, but always by the real presence and activity of the Supernatural---of God. The Antichrist will be telling you different.

2. A PAGAN VIEW OF THE STATE.---The traditional view of the State held by statesmen and diplomatists is appalling when viewed from the Christian standpoint. A State is regarded as possessing an absolute sovereignty; in effect it owes nothing either to God or man. Propositions which, when laid down for an individual, would be branded as unsound and morally detestable are laid down as a matter of course for the State.

It is the false immoral doctrine, having a disposition of an enemy to humanity, that a State is an absolute morally self-contained being, living in the world with other similar beings, but owing no duties to them, and bound by no obligations that it may not break on the plea of necessity which is the fundamental vice embodied in that foreign policy the fruits of which we are now reaping.

If States were in their nature such as the political theory of today assumes, they would be inhuman monstrosities, and the duty of every lover of his kind would be to the end their useless and dangerous existence. There is no place in an ordered society for an prince of rivalry; and no ordered and stable civilization is ever possible in a world consisting of States each of which avows itself a corporate rivalry.

Closely related to this view of the State as an absolute end is the common mode of speech held by statesmen. The State is a "Power"---not a brotherhood, not an association for promoting the knowledge or happiness or well-being of its people or of the race, but something that possesses and exercises force. Put in what will seem a brutal form, but which is, alas! only too accurate, the respect which a State claims and receives is in proportion to its capacity to kill and destroy. Our thinking has got on false lines; we are the slaves of unexamined words---"State sovereignty," "Power," and so forth. Bring those words to the test of reason and of Christianity, and they will be seen to stand for intolerable ideals; and when once the false doctrine is discerned in its pagan simplicity, we shall be on the track of true thought. At present we are the slaves of inherited superstitions.

3. THE ENORMOUS PRACTICAL DIFFICULTIES IN RIDDING THE WORLD OF WAR.---There are, as we have seen, false notions to be replaced by true; there are deep suspicions having their roots in long-standing historical relations; there are sinister interests that thrive on human strife; in a word, there is the terrible fact of human sin. They who labor for world peace, and hope that it will some day be attained, are frequently told that they take too lightly the fact of sin.

A sentence in a letter of Erasmus has a very modern sound: "There is a project to have a congress of kings at Cambrai, to enter into mutual engagements to preserve peace with each other and through Europe. But certain persons, who get nothing by peace and a great deal by war, throw obstacles in the way."

But we must refuse to be frightened by talk concerning the vast power of sin. 'Why are ye so fearful, O ye of little faith?' Are we to conclude that in the very truth goodness is feebler than wickedness, and that, because the hindrances to be overcome are enormous, we are justified in abandoning an ideal which commends itself most clearly just when we are conscious of being nearest to our Master? Faith dares not reason so; it is still called on to remove mountains.

We thank Thee, Heavenly Father, for the great prophecies and dreams of the inspired men of Holy Scriptures, who spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. May we believe in their visions as in Thine own decrees, and labor with all diligence to bring their realization nearer. Increase our faith, we beseech Thee, and take out of our hearts all malice and revenge, that we may believe in and work for the coming of the reign of the Prince of Peace.

Little ones beware of Antichrist, he may be sounding even now.

In Christ, Timothy. Maranatha

Dear Timothy and group,

I have not been able to read all your posts in the last three months and still am way tooooo busy trying to get everything set up again as it was in a former location (not only household wise, but our print shop as well).

Anyhow, Tim, you stirred up something in me and the Spirit told me to read your post. As a result I plan on putting on this list a book about this very subject, the sovereignty of God vs. the rebellion of man. I will be putting it on in "bite sized" installments. Hang in there. We start getting into the governments of man as an act of rebellion against God in the first chapter. Like you said, it would take a spate of sermons to explain all that is coming down the pike in these last days. The book that George Davis and I wrote takes a little different angle at discussing what God is up to and how He is bringing about His SOVERIEGN ends. God wins not rebellious man and as a result all who are not of the antichrist spirit are also made winners! Praise His name.

We have this book in print and it is also available on a donation basis. So without any further ado... here is the introduction. (Found at


Michael, I am a fairly obscure person in this group. I watch the emails and respond when prompted by the Holy Spirit. I am 57 years and have been saved since the age of 7. I received prophecy long ago (1973) that the Holy Spirit had set me aside for the end time ministry. I have done and been many things my life. Retired Police Officer, Retired Navy and taught HS and College for 13 years....Sufficient to say that 3 years ago on a very high mountain (I hiked 4 hours to the appointed place) the Father said to me "It is time." The first prophetic utterance from the Holy Spirit to a local church congregation in turmoil was, "wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord of Hosts." The Holy Spirit continued to speak and put emphasis on "COME OUT" my children must COME OUT. I had, by the grace of God, been a member of a local Methodist Church. Needless to say I didn't fit and the Religious Priest's bade me go. But, I left because the Holy Spirit said to leave. The local church where the Holy Spirit spoke (the leaders) were not very happy and Sent the Pastor to "talk to me and see where I am coming from." I won't go into the whole thing because it has been repeated over the ages millions of times. Sufficient to say, I have been in training and patiently waiting for His calling. I can only say that the Father has shown me many things for the end times; which will be and are being revealed daily. It is an exciting time to live and be apart of this last great tidal wave of glory which will truly "restore all things." I am excited because he Father has spoken to His remnant, the call has gone fourth and we, as a Church, and the world is about to see how weak and defenseless Satan is. How easily and swiftly God works to accomplish his purpose. How His grace goes far, far beyond simply His unmerited favor.

I could go on and write volumes but I just want to thank you for your ministry.

I am preparing a web site, by the Lord's leading, It isn't up on the web yet because I am still working on it. I can say the content won't make the local churches too happy. But the Father has shown and lead me to many of God's people who have been alienated and have already "come out." all over our small mountain town of Truckee, Ca. He said to go to Jerusalem first.. and I am walking in what has already been called into existence. I walk in, "It is finished." If you know what I mean.

Blessings and many prayers to you,

Brother Curtis

Hi, all. I just want to say to Curtis, "Keep on, Friend. What you are posting and sharing with us I agree with. So keep it coming!"

Carol: We come out, because we have heard the call. Not everyone is "chosen" to become The First Fruits. I've been asked if I think

I am called while others that I know, and have prayed and studied with and worshipped with, aren't. I have no idea about them. Praise the Lord, I, myself, have heard the call, and I believe in the Manifested Sons of God. The creation is groaning to see this. And I believe the Bible teaches the "restoration of all things" but I was not taught this in any Denomination. I gradually learned it by revelation, by study and from a Gentleman Bible teacher that I have been studying with since 1991.

Now, It's OK if people do not believe all this. But I have proven,

for myself, that we are called out to prepare for an exciting "task" ahead. If we are not sure what that Job is, The Lord will reveal it to us soon enough. This is PREPARATION TIME, and the World needs us. Just you wait and see! Exciting? Ah! It is to me.

We are parts of the Body of Christ, some are "bitty" parts, we feel, but no, we are all necessary to make a complete Body. And we are jewels. When we talk to one another about our Creator God, or write about Him, He takes notice, and will spare us. He calls us His jewels. I was sharing this (in Mal.) with a Denominational pastor that came up to my booth at the local Cafe. He said, "I never thought about it before. I hope I can be a Topaz". Hmmm.

The Lord bless all. This is preparation time for something great. I'm sure Curtis will let us all know. But I believe it.

Lots of love and much prayer for all. Pray for me. Marilyn Williams

Hi Lightship,

Reading the posts with great excitement. "Coming out" is so important. I guess it has always been so but even more now that the final day approaches. What I wanted to echo is what Marilyn mentions "It's OK if people do not believe all this." I believe that God is raising up people that will transcend all the petty arguments and divisions that has characterized so much of church history and come together in one spirit. It does not matter as much what we believe as long as we know who we believe. When that happens, Jesus will come for His Bride.

The Temple analogy of the restoration is important too. We are to measure the temple of God and we are the building blocks. What that means to me is that we are to see exactly how many people fit into this and if we are to do that, we must be discerning as to how God's people qualify as to its construction. That is a dangerous process, it can lead to pride and exclusiveness, but then not all of us are called to it. Many just enter in as the gates are opened. Taken out of the confusion, the false authority of man and of the divisions.

What I wanted to say is that the church is not our enemy or Babylon that we must flee. A lot of people are going in that direction and I trust that we can be of one mind and that is not happening with us.

1 Peter 5:13: The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you...

Colossians 1:18. And He is the head of the body, the church...

Everything we speak to Babylon must be truth in love. If is in condemnation, we judge ourselves and the truth is not in us. I have seen over and over where pastors in the body of Christ is attacked by well meaning prophets simply because this is not understood. We are to perfect the church, not separate ourselves from it. We are commanded to love but many do not need that commandment, they do it naturally out of a pure heart. The more doctrinal we become, the more roadblocks are thrown out to stumble on. Love is what is to identify us, not correctness. Once that is understood and perfected, correctness will come of its own accord.


Hi all,

I have just been catching up on the posts, and like Jay, I must say that this is exciting. To confirm what you are saying about..'it doesn't matter if people agree with us or not'...that is true. It is not us doing the 'calling out', it is the Lord, so we can know that He will have His Way in each ones life. We can just relax and follow HIM, encouraging and loving everyone He leads across our path! Glory!

I agree with Jay's remarks concerning Babylon also. It has helped me to understand that there is a big difference between the 'system' and God's people. The system is a 'thing' He is destroying (by calling us out of it) which is delivering ALL His people from its bondage. The people He loves, the 'system' He hates. Two separate things, separate issues. So, as He is delivering us, He will deliver our bros and sisters. While we wait for His fulfillment and the complete joining of His Body, we follow Him! Glory!

One more thing. There is only the danger of 'elitism' if one doesn't understand the purpose of 'firstfruits'. There are firstfruits on every tree, but before the tree is done producing the WHOLE tree is full of fruit. The first apple to appear on the tree is no more/less important than the last one that appears weeks later. As someone said, 'level playing field'...none above or below another. Firstfruits are simply those who manifest first what the Lord is saying today...whose numbers are added to daily. Glory!

I look forward to reading more of 'The New Exodus', and hearing what is happening in all your lives.

Blessings, Lorraine

Well put, Lorraine! As Jay quoted,,,

1 Peter 5:13: The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you...

It is one thing to be AT Babylon and the Lord's elect and another thing to be OF Babylon. Elitism is of the Spirit of Babylon and has no place in the kingdom of God. So often, though, even those who "come out" do so with a wedge of gold and a garment of Babylon hidden in their tent (see Joshua 7:21).

There is only one type of gold that Jesus is looking for and one type of garment. That is the gold that is tried in His fire and the garment of His righteousness given by Him to all who would come to His wedding feast. May we all be made ready as His bride casting off all that is not of Him.

Love you all,


Hi Michael, Lagging behind with the mail here but finally got to this today. I liked what I read about God calling us back into migrant status. I feel this is right because of needing to be ready to do what God says and go where He leads despite what anyone is saying including those within ritualistic, impotent and religious structures, but not exclusively them. I think it is true that we have an inherent tendency to settle and build and there are dangers attached to that but it is as much visible in doctrine as it is in alternative doctrine. We all scrape together the facts as we see them and then present them as "truth" and the settle and build thing shows up in the desire to hear someone affirm that we are right. Someone plants the flag and says "let's build here" and others come right alongside and say "yes that's good" and before you know it there is a settlement. I think that is just the flesh doing its thing and of course we have to fight against it. But fight against it always and not be tempted to camp down anywhere, even when we think we have hold of the truth. There is no freedom in religious certainty, and truth itself is a changing thing to us. Migrant status is essential in order to be aware of the unfolding truth in God, and it is as much about interior freedom as exterior, which is what I think Jay was saying about our relationship with the church as follows:

"What I wanted to say is that the church is not our enemy or Babylon that we must flee. A lot of people are going in that direction and I trust that we can be of one mind and that is not happening with us."

- Babylon is written on our fleshly mind and we can only get out of it if we allow our minds to be renewed, let the Holy Spirit fill our sails and insist we go where He goes. Even if it is back into those impotent religious structures to spring a few brethren. It is the Holy Spirit who frees us and He hasn't done so if in any sense we are saying "Lord don't send me there!". Some on this list are handling such freedom with great grace, bearing error and criticism and reproach inside religious set-ups but holding fast to the freedom to be where the Holy Spirit has sent them, and do the job He wants them to do. Praise the Lord for that.

My current situation here is that I am listening and seeking the Lord for where He wants to send me. I have visited a have-it-all-together church lately but I am turned off by the success, nothing for me to do except soak it up and get fat and lazy letting everyone else do their thing. But I have my eye on a little place with a flicker of desire for God and a bucket load of tradition and false doctrine. I wonder....... Looking forward to the next installment. Great to hear from you Michael, hope everything is fine with you.

Love and a hug from Mary

God is so good and it is a wonderful thing when His body is in tune to His Spirit, hearing the same thing and receiving the same direction. When brethren dwell together in that kind of unity, He will always command a blessing.


Hi Mary,

I want to thank you (and all others) for your prayers. They have been heard. After months and months of being beaten down by our "justice" system, we finally got a victory. We have been under extreme pressure and stress for well over a year now, and this victory (although a seemingly small one) is great cause for rejoicing. (And I dare not despise the day of small beginnings.) Satan is so slow to learn. You would think he'd realize by now that the cross leads to victory. Not a small, earthly victory; although that is wonderful and most welcome; but the same spiritual victory that Jesus won--resurrection life.

I hope and pray things are better where you are. Hang in there, Mary. We're almost at the finish line. You know, as I read "The New Exodus", I can see the lights of that city--New Jerusalem--as it comes down to us from Heaven.


Hello, my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Just a "passing through" comment. I am enjoying the posts and comments, and I must say, that I have learned a lot by reading: "chewing," eating fresh Manna, and using the wee bit I might not agree with as "roughage". (smile)

It is true..Love covers a multitude of sins and also ideas. I think the "church world" might call some of us "cults", as we don't agree with all the mainstream religious ideas. Right? But thank the Lord, we do believe in Jesus the Messiah, and His shed blood for our sins!! That is number Uno. And we believe He gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us all things.

None of us have arrived as yet, but we are all on a journey, and with much encouragement, and much prayer, and a lot of teaching. we'll make it!! HalleluYah. I don't have a "handle", so to speak, but I do have the JOYBELLS CONSTANTLY RINGING WITHIN MY SPIRIT! I mean that!!!

Somebody asked me once what was different about my countenance. Nothing I see, when I look in the mirror. Same old same old! But I made a little "trip" or something, about 4 years ago, and I brought something back with me. For the longest while, I asked God to tell me what it was. Others felt it, too, but didn't have the answer. Well, the Lord showed me just the other day. No big gift like healing, prophesy, wisdom, etc. (although we may have those, too). He showed me that I brought back a Cup full and running over with Joy!! Yeh, brothers and sisters, it's catching. And I want some more of that knowledge that some of you are displaying!

Let us love one another and smile at each other (over the internet"). Love and prayers.


I am finding it easier all the time to mourn for the church. It's true. I am finding it harder all the time to laugh or to justify others laughing, especially when I see how Christians try to cut each other up, dissect each other, slander and insult each other and then say it comes from the Lord. Whether it is in history or on this list, the accuser of the brethren seems to have his way in so many Christians. This is what I meant that it is past time for the solemn assembly. It makes me so sad.

Zephaniah 3:18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden. 19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. 20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.


Hi all,

I want to learn when I am on here, there is so much good stuff that gets written about. But I needed some teaching from Jesus the other night and I couldn't go to sleep until I grasped what it was. I am putting it here because the time is right and we need to be careful to discern between the false and the true.

There were two visions.

The first was of a man-made reservoir of water, a large body of water held up and back by great sweeping walled structures. Below was a valley, not parched but damp, sour, polluted, with an evil overgrowth.

The second was of a natural, living watercourse. Up above was a small pool pouring out great quantities of fresh sweet water. The pool never got smaller despite the quantity of water pouring out. The water cascaded down at speed to reach the lowest level, a large pool. The contrast was fabulous as the white water splashed and bounced off the black rocks in its speedy descent.

The visions are to do with discerning false and true teachers. We are often discussing what evil ensues from the false ministries among us: we hear of self appointed apostles pastors and prophets and many of us have had our awakening to the truth of the condition of the church in what we have encountered at their hands. But regarding false teachers, I understand now that there is a distinction to be made between the delivery of false teaching, and a false teaching ministry. A false teacher is not necessarily one who delivers false teaching. A false teacher, i.e. one without the God-given ministry, could be in posession of sound teaching but not have the right to teach it. We should not underestimate the damage that can be done to ourselves and our brethren by failing to discern the difference.

In the first vision there is the body of water representing truth, God's truth, "reserved" in a man-made structure out of the hands of the ordinary saint in the street. The false teacher is like this structure, he is a modern day Pharisee. He holds himself and God's truth away from the ordinary man. He actually despises the lowly in the flock and consigns them to the polluted valley as unworthy to receive the teaching that comes from God. He believes he owns the right to do this, that what he has to teach actually belongs to him, and so he guards it jealously. No weak and sickly Christian thirsty for living water is going to scale those high walls and get himself a drink while this teacher is around. Many are failing for thirst in the polluted valley. Those who recognise their spiritual poverty are well aware how hard it is to get a drink from this teacher. Those who already believe they are privileged to have an ownership on the truth are built into the structure, sat upon the walls saying yea and amen, the spirit of adulation is right at home there. Oh the need for the floodgates to open and the teaching to pour down into that valley, the cleansing, purifying effect of the sweet water of sound doctrine. It is easy to see why these modern day Pharisees are in teaching positions, they are in possession of the whole wealth of God's provision in knowledge and intend to hold on to it through intellectualism, elitism, legalism, and perfectionism all held up with the stout buttresses of self-righteousness and pride.

Above all we must be careful not to fall into the same trap. If in any way we are taking the truth and learning to teach like a Pharisee we must put a stop to it.

Vision no.2 depicts the same blessing of God's truth and sound doctrine in the hands of a true teacher with the God-given ministry. This teacher is like a conduit, a fast, bubbling natural watercourse. His whole purpose for being is to get the teaching down from heaven and into the hands of the masses. The teaching cascades downwards in power, refreshing, renewing, invigorating and bringing life in abundance wherever it reaches. Nothing is concealed, nothing is withheld. Where false teachers heap God's riches to themselves, true teachers cannot help but give it away. The thirsty simply have to turn their faces towards the flow and their thirst is slaked.

There is no opposition, controversy, doubt or fear that can obstruct the flow of teaching coming from the one in God-given teaching ministry. In the vision the water bounces off all those black rocks on its way to the lower pool, and they only make it whiter, cleaner, more sparkling, and speed the descent.

Again, it is those who recognize their spiritual poverty and their need for teaching that are most easily able to discern the true teacher. It is from them that they receive what they need from God and all His riches are shown and made available to them. The true teaching ministry is all about giving in love, and true to God's promises this giving is returned with some increment in empowered individuals. Thereby the Kingdom grows.

Love from Mary

Hi Jay and all,

I looked up "to feel" in the Chambers' dictionary just for fun. It says "to be conscious of; to be keenly sensible of; to have an inward persuasion of; to experience" Place "God" after each definition and it becomes something marvelous.

Feeling the power, love and majesty of God...that word majesty pulled me to a standing position in my spirit. Man, I love that. Thanks.

When you say we are to test whether we are in the faith, not others...yes that is it. That done, watch everyone else's backs. Gal.6 1-10

  1. "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
  2. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
  3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
  4. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
  5. For every man shall bear his own burden.
  6. Let him that is taught in the word, communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
  7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
  8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
  9. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
  10. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

I think that clears it up about our responsibilities to the church. Time for me to look again at the Babylon archives and get back on here. Oh dear maybe tomorrow. It nearly is tomorrow and I have been on here all day.

Love to you Jay,


Jay you are always the voice of reason here please no more cutting and slicing that is not why I joined this group i have been to toronto and seen it for myself but god sent me here where I see none of that BUT I still know how He filled me during that time and that filling is still here in me more than two years later He still speaks and some days I cry and some day I laugh but mostly I pray for those who do not know Him if you want to learn how others live go to websites that show how others are oppressed and killed for HIM and then all of this arguing becomes so silly and childish I for one need lots of prayer and some uplift as i get none here please no more slicing and dicing LOIS

David seems to take these things a lot better than I do. I have got used to all the hate mail that I get so often from people thinking the Lord is speaking through them and I suffer through it. Over time I have become pretty insulated from that because I get it so often. The Bible tells me to be a good soldier and bear it all and people tell me to give it over to the Lord and not be hurt but that is easy compared to the painful understanding of how much they are hurting themselves and the ones they accuse. The ones bringing false judgment are getting really judged. I hurt a lot worse now when I see it happen to one of my brothers and sisters in the Lord. When I see a brother or sister cut, I bleed so I really wonder what it must do to Jesus. Can any one of us comprehend fully the love that He has for each one of us? Maybe it is beyond our comprehension but I believe that it must really hurt Him to see what Christians do and say to each other in His name. It is only a rhetorical question but what kind of spirit sees only bad in people? Or only the bad in Christians through history. We are commanded to love so we have no excuse, it comes natural for some and seemingly impossible for others.

The apostasy is here people. Can you imagine that there are people saying that you cannot find God within the four walls of a church? There is a false spirit in the world today that will tell you that Jesus has left Christendom, that His true followers are no longer there. The truth is that apostasy is within and without the churches but I want to tell you that His people are within and without also where the wheat and tares are allowed to grow together. Jesus loves us all and He is alive and well no matter where His people gather. Of course there is the Nicolaitan spirit within the church system, the false authority, the greed, materialism and the Jezebel spirit too, it is just too obvious to deny. But to think that they have all gone the way of Baal is the Elijah syndrome, "I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord." But there are many that have not bowed the knee to Baal and to judge and condemn them along with the rest precludes a backlash judgment. This hateful, arrogant and exclusivistic condemnation will ultimately be their own downfall no matter how much they do it in Jesus' name in the guise of love. While many are condemning others because of an imperfect church, the true prophets of the Lord will come in the power of the Holy Spirit to do what they can to revive and perfect it.


Wow, if I was just reading without saying anything about this I would be crazy!!! sometimes I really wonder where you guys come from? you can tell who has a theology background and who doesn't, and of course I'm from the who doesn't, but just because you have the word in you, it sure sounds like you use it as a reason to talk a different language than the other people. I might sound as if I am offended, and in a way, and I WILL be real on this one and say that my feelings do get hurt, but sometimes people do get like that. My heart has gotten bigger with Christ not harder. I try not to say too too much in this group about things bothering me, because it feels like all the scholars come out and I get hurt. But I will hang in a little longer, because it seems to me that nothing is any different here than another christian group. This one is just older, and really doesn't discuss the wonderful experiences from God, just to judge how a person is run by feelings or not by feelings, it just sounds like condemnation all over again... I don't use the word in every, and I certainly don't preach to people, I talk to them, and I don't make them feel inferior to me.

If someone wants to know what has happened to them that God has done, or taken them, or what they have seen, quit condemning them for wanting to know!

I feel like if you aren't the one asked, don't say anything, maybe the person hasn't felt the power of God in a while and is dry, boy I've met those, and it seems like in the Christian circles, the talk is all the same. They are making you think that you don't know the word enough, and aren't spiritual enough.

You guys except a couple, are going to be exposed to people like me, well, maybe, unless no-one gets the emails but believers...

Just a thought, sorry so rough:)


Hi Krissy,

I don't have theological background either and I agree it all takes a bit of keeping up with!!

It is heartfelt knowledge of God that really counts. We need to be so careful that we don't depart from the simplicity of Christ. I liked what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 1:12 "For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you ward." and also in chapter 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

'Knowledge puffeth up but charity (love) edifieth.'

So if we want to feed and strengthen one another we must do it in love and in the simplicity of Christ.

All our efforts without love are nothing.

Love in Christ,


Ah, the simplicity of Christ - love.

That says it all.

Thanks Gail and Krissy.


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