Daniel's Prayer

October 5, 2002

Completed a class on Daniel the other week and the ninth chapter really touched me. Brought me to tears actually and I prayed.

Jesus we love you, we honor you and glorify you. We honor you lord, for keeping your promises to us, we praise you for granting mercy to those who love you and do your will. We are not worthy Lord; we have sinned and humbly ask you now for deliverance. We do not deserve your grace Lord; we have done grievous wrongs and are still doing evil. We keep going against you; we keep turning away from your teachings and following the commandments of men. We have not heeded your prophets who speak in your name.

Lord, we know that you are right and we are to be blamed. Shame has already come upon the people that have been called by your name because of the sin and the false authority and the pride and glory that we have taken on ourselves. We have rebelled against you in all our ways; we have not listened to your voice. All of us have gone our own way. Now these judgments and trials that you have warned us about are around us, and still we do not repent. You have done exactly what you said you would do and judged us by sending a great evil upon our nations and our rulers.

We have not prayed but we want to now Lord. Please dear Jesus, hear our cries, even though we have sinned against you, we know that you are forgiving and merciful. Deliver us from this evil that has been afflicted upon your people. We have not accepted your wisdom Lord, we have not loved our brothers the way that you have taught us, we have cursed them and condemned them and spoken evil concerning them. Lord we ask you now to again send us your wisdom, to again speak to your prophets and have them speak to the church. Give us the desire and power to seek you with all of our heart and mind to serve you fully. Send again the joy of our salvation and revive us Lord, we need you and love you and are lost without you. Bring us to that travail and solemn assembly. Pour out your Spirit Lord, upon all flesh and draw us near to you.

Nothing is withheld from you Lord. You have seen all the evil that we have done and we are reaping what we have sown. Oh God, you are the One who took your people out of the land of Egypt, you sent your Son to die in our stead, you are the One that has delivered us from death. You have redeemed us Lord and still, we returned to our wicked ways. We appeal to your righteousness Lord and ask that this wrath and your passion be turned away from your people. We have quarreled amongst ourselves, we have not lifted you up Lord Jesus, we have lifted ourselves up and done evil in your sight. Lord, deliver us, teach us to bring deliverance to others, teach us to love others like you have loved us. Teach us to give of ourselves as you have given yourself for us.

Please listen to us now Lord, to the prayer of your servants and our requests for grace. Let your face shine on your Church and make us the Holy Bride that you are coming for. Turn your ear toward us so that you may hear our cries; let your eyes be opened to see how wasted that the people named by your name have become. We are not offering our prayers before you because of our righteousness but because of your great mercy. Give ear, oh Lord, forgive us and take note of our pleas. Do not tarry, it is for the honor of your name Oh God, because your Church and your people are named by your name.

There is no human way possible to obtain deliverance from sin. That may sound too simplistic but many try to do it in their own power. The dialogue this time is mainly concerned with deliverance. I did not call for a question last time but this is the direction we went.

Let's carry this through with more people involved in the discussion. We all need deliverance personally but especially the universal Church. What can we bring to the readers of these archives that can lead the Church to deliverance, to the final travail, to the solemn assembly? What will it take for the church to get holy? What can we do to bring the unity that Jesus has prayed for? Many of us have spent a long time trying to make these things happen for others and then lapsed back into bad habits, complacency and inertia for ourselves. I know that I have. I know that I need deliverance. What about others? What about you?


I am interested in what other things would prevent us from being the people God wants us to be, in terms of power and authority. Recently it was put to me that it is holding onto your spiritual past that limits what you might do for God in the future. That seems to hold good for me in terms of seasons of past blessing or suffering. Men are apt to speak about the times when God used them in the past and mighty things were done for the kingdom, while being in a current state of barrenness. Before long the stories of past exploits become more elaborate and the absence of God's power in the present tense more noticeable. Lord keep us from that. When things are good we need to know they are that way because of what God is doing, not us. And if He is not doing anything, the cross is still there.

Regarding suffering, even suffering for righteousness sake, you can get in a place where you cannot go forward because the bad memories of the past are too much colouring your view of the future. I have met quite a few people like that and it happens to me still sometimes. I think perhaps it hasn't fully dawned on us yet that God is doing a new thing. I am pretty sure I need to be "...forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before," as Paul says Philippians 3.13, 14, " I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Pride, as always, gets in the way of the free flow of God's power through us. Maybe it helps to remember that the power that God is giving us is not for our own personal enjoyment but for the benefit of the body. That way there is no option but to take it all to the cross and get rid of it, whatever it is that hinders.

Thanks Tim for stirring me up yet again.

Love to all,


Hello Mary. Surf's up; I was going to the gym tonight, but God has other plans. And besides if the truth be known I would rather write to you, dear one.----No you haven't missed anything, in fact you have brought out some very good points.

I was not saying it is the fault of the individual if there is any lack of power or authority by them. It remains to ask how far and by what means this greatness is attainable by us all.

Greatness is a gift, the gift of the Spirit of God. It cannot be taught, it is an endowment, of nature or of grace, though why we should distinguish these two is not clear, since both are from the same hand. You may teach imitation, because the meanest man can imitate; but you can neither teach idealism nor composition, because only a great man can choose, conceive or compose; and he does all these things necessarily, and because of his nature. His greatness is in his choice of things, in his analysis of them, and his combining powers involve the totality of his knowledge in life. In other words, a man's greatness is not in any wise external to him, but is rooted in his inmost nature by the spirit that is given him. It is consistently taught throughout the Old Testament that eminence in every department of life is the gift of the Spirit of God. The wisdom of the ruler, the valor of the hero, the mechanical skill of the craftsman are each a Divine gift.

Now, since Pentecost, this doctrine has received a marvelous extension. Greatness is Christlikeness, and the Spirit of Christ is freely bestowed on all His people, to be in them the prompter and living power of all goodness. If this means anything it means that true greatness is possible to any man who will receive and live by the Spirit of Christ. 'Christ's estimate of greatness differs from all others principally in this, that, according to it, greatness is not to be the monopoly of a privileged class or the title given to certain exceptional forms of service. It is to be common to every section of the community, it is to consist, not in the importance of the act performed, but in the motive which is behind the action.'

Greatness is finally attained, as St. Paul reminds us, 'by patient continuance in well doing.' The Divine gift must be exercised, the heavenly talent must be put to usury. Genius has been defined as "an infinite capacity for taking pains," and certainly without that capacity the vital force of genius would run to waste. Another mark of greatness is unbroken consistency and unity of aim in a long life. This is that quality which our Lord calls faithfulness. It has nothing to do with the greatness of a man's sphere or the attainment of what is called success in life. Indeed, one may discover that the path of success is closed to me only that I may find opening before me the path of heroism, of moral greatness and resignation.

To the man who lives thus, patient in loving service, 'not soon weary in well doing,' the hour of destiny will strike at last. 'Well done, good and faithful servant, thou hast been faithful over a few things, be thou ruler over many things.' Thus shall true greatness in the end be crowned and glorified.

I would like to write what a friend has sent me; I will not give her name, and I will have to tell her that I have used her post to me, and ask forgiveness. But I think this is really good.----

Look at Jesus in Luke 4:1-2

'Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.'

Then the Bible goes on to record how he was tempted by the devil and how Jesus responded to his temptations.

Now look at verse 14 of Luke 4

'Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region.'

After the temptations and His overcoming, He returned IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT. And lo and behold the very next thing we see Him do is in verses 20-21

'Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

He walked in the surety of the power of the Holy Spirit by exercising the authority given to Him from above.

First the test and then the testimony. Power then authority. Inner then outer. For too many of us want the outer presence without the inner workings. He is our example and what He had to do we must do in order to walk with Him in His ways. Sort of like David and carrying the Ark on the cart- it did not work and in fact a man dead in this error. Let us not also find ourselves in error of pretending to present the outer when we have not wrestled and overcome the inner.----

If you think I am out there Mary; you all, please don't leave me out here by myself too much---te-he.

Love ya,~~~Tim.

Hi lovely Tim,

Thanks for your reply, I enjoyed every moment. I think that you are right that too many want the authority without the Godly process that leads to it. It is easy to make things look good by speaking intelligently about the scriptures and demonstrating an extensive knowledge of the Bible. I have met people who have a stunning faith on the basis of their Biblical knowledge, and it can take us quite a way in looks at any rate. The testing hurdle though is in whether or not they are able to love like Jesus would have us love, you can't pretend that, no amount of study or outward appearance will give you anything better than hypocrisy if you haven't gone through the grinding mill of experience and suffering as the Lord permits, in order that some of the hardness might be worked out of us.

I am interested in what other things would prevent us from being the people God wants us to be, in terms of power and authority. Recently it was put to me that it is holding onto your spiritual past that limits what you might do for God in the future. That seems to hold good for me in terms of seasons of past blessing or suffering. Men are apt to speak about the times when God used them in the past and mighty things were done for the kingdom, while being in a current state of barrenness. Before long the stories of past exploits become more elaborate and the absence of God's power in the present tense more noticeable. Lord keep us from that. When things are good we need to know they are that way because of what God is doing, not us. And if He is not doing anything, the cross is still there.

Regarding suffering, even suffering for righteousness sake, you can get in a place where you cannot go forward because the bad memories of the past are too much colouring your view of the future. I have met quite a few people like that and it happens to me still sometimes. I think perhaps it hasn't fully dawned on us yet that God is doing a new thing. I am pretty sure I need to be "...forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before," as Paul says Philippians 3.13, 14, " I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Pride, as always, gets in the way of the free flow of God's power through us. Maybe it helps to remember that the power that God is giving us is not for our own personal enjoyment but for the benefit of the body. That way there is no option but to take it all to the cross and get rid of it, whatever it is that hinders.

Fear of failure dogs my steps. Point it out to me if you see any recurring signs of it. The other night in the worship team there was a song that kept coming up but I did my best to avoid performing it because of a chord on the guitar that I find difficult. I tried everything I could think of to get out of doing it and thought I had succeeded. Next I knew the pastor sent someone to me to specifically request this particular song, so I did it, not very ably, hoping everyone would get off my case with it. Oh dear. More requests for it from different quarters. So then I cheated and transposed the whole thing into a different key so that I could avoid this one chord. That was the day my plectrum flew across the stage and I had to keep singing but stop playing until someone rescued me. worse and worse. Still the requests were coming for that blinking song. Finally I decided to do it by faith, deliberately including it in the programme and trusting God with my weakness. I cant say I played perfectly but it was the day that everyone in the room took off in worship, people were on the floor, the whole room was full of the presence of God. I know I had prevented that blessing because I was trying to do in the flesh something God wanted to do in the Spirit, He didn't require my perfection, just my obedience. Oh my! Fun huh.

Thanks Tim for stirring me up yet again.

Love to all,

Hi Tim, and all,

Thanks Tim for working so hard, it has been busy for me here and I haven't been able to contribute as much as I would have liked. Lois, I had to let one of your messages go by as I was up to my eyeballs, sorry about that!

Perhaps I could tell you what is happening in my church. The couple who were insisting on deliverance before worship have left. I am not sorry about that. I don't know why if, as they said, that was their ministry, they didn't get on with it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the point of deliverance that it is for the benefit of the person who need deliverance? Why then are some so hostile who think they have this ministry. Am I just foolish and immature to believe that we cast out the spirit but love the individual? Why is that so hard? I find my peace is not at all disturbed by being in the company of these people who are now trickling in steadily from various backgrounds and assorted lifestyles. Everyone is welcome, and that is how it should be. But of course there are stories of occult and voodoo and people are shacked up with each other and struggling with addictions and stuff like that...every so often I catch myself thinking SOMEBODY TELL THEM you can't do that....

We are hearing some wonderful sermons that match the needs, you can imagine how exciting that is. In my mind is that we overcome evil with good, where it is a lifestyle thing, pray for each other, when the opportunity arises speak the truth in love, keep repenting of anything that smacks of self-righteousness, keep stripped down to the essentials and try not to hinder the Holy Spirit. So interesting because the worship itself has an intimacy I am finding, like we all let go in one voice, in spite of the troubles and complications and difficulties...rather lovely actually.

We are all learning about spiritual warfare, and how not to go into battle. We have to learn this because of the things we are facing. We have to learn a bit quick because of the extreme needs. Tell you what it is not like any church I have ever been to....no one cares about the unimportant things. Praise the Lord.

Would welcome your thoughts.

Love from Mary

thank you so much for this latest teaching it is right on time......in more ways then I could ever explain......surrender....repentance......walking in the Holy Ghost Spirit.....yes it takes a lot of effort, but well worth it.........


There are two things God says He will do, in connection with the Church, that we must remember. He says, 'I will fill this house with glory.' It may have looked in the past a bare and unpromising place, but God assures His people it will have a splendor answering to its purpose. And our Church will be a glorious place also when we bring into it everything that is dear to us, and when we consecrate all to our God. The Church is full of glory when it is full of people who belong to God, and who keep back nothing from Him; when it is full of young men and women who are giving the strength of their youth to Christ; when it is full of people who are matured in their Christian experience, and eager to help their fellow-men, and when the old people are still able to say, 'He is faithful that promised.'

Again, He says, 'In this place I will give peace.' Now, peace may seem a little gift after glory, but God knows best, and there are probably few things that do more to bring people into the house of God than just the hope of peace. And what a blessing the Church is, even if it were nothing else than just a quiet place with an open door and a call to prayer. And yet we do not get peace just by escaping from the world into a peaceful building; we never get it by trying to escape the restlessness, and worry, and sin of our common life. Peace is a gift from God. It can only be obtained from God. It can only be obtained when we come face to face with God.

I love you Mary-------Tim.

Hi Mary,

The insistence of deliverance before worship goes back to the days when holiness churches had "mourner's benches" as you came into the sanctuary instead of at the foot of the altars. Confession before mass is another example. People would ask the Lord for forgiveness and get holy before they came into church. It always rang true to me, the sanctification of the assembly before worship struck me as the proper way to get into the spirit during worship. Then at invocation, the Lord could manifest Himself more fully in a sanctified congregation of holy vessels. Of course, deliverance is good any time you do it, before or after, just as long as it is present at some time. Since so many churches do not have deliverance ministries at all, anything is better than nothing but of course, love is the best way to go and leaving like they did was not a holy act. If that is the way they felt, they are the ones that should have been delivered first through contrition and love.

I do think however that sometimes too much emphasis is placed upon what we do wrong instead of not doing what is right. In other words, sins of omission are often times more serious that the sins of commission. Because of our human nature, we sin; there is nothing we can do to get rid of sin completely until we are in a glorified state. Salvation rewards us for our faith but we will one day be rewarded even more for our works. There is a judgment for the believers like the fire of purification and many will only get though like crispy critters. What we will not be judged for is our sins; our sins have been hid in Christ and dumped into the depths of the sea. What we will be judged on is if we have kept our light under a bushel or hid our talents in the sand. Once we are given a new life, we are to take it and live for the Lord and serve others. Jesus said that He did not know us if we did not take care of the poor or clothe the naked or feed the hungry. That's the way I see it anyway.


Hi Jay,

It would help me to talk about deliverance; maybe some others would be interested too. It is an ongoing thing in the church I attend but the couple were critical about the extent to which it was being done...they thought they would have done a more perfect job, and kept reminding me and others that they were experienced in such matters. The lady in question was delivered of something while she lay on the floor one night. The pastor had been praying for her. Unfortunately there were other people present and they didn't like what they saw. It hasn't been helped by sharp criticisms circulating about her, and now she seems to be held responsible for all sorts of evil. There is no doubt that she is quite a personality and struggles with all sorts of things. But she has come a long way since her hells angel days, and although she is still facing horrific scenes in her house with violence and threats from her family, manages to get to church, look after homeless people and visit prisons with the gospel message.

I hear what you say about holy vessels and a proper attitude before worship. Something for us to aim for. But it is a way off at present, with everyone up to their eyeballs in difficulties of all sorts it is a miracle anyone turns up at all! But they do. The worship reminds me of a Greek wedding parade I watched once on holiday. Everyone in the village had turned out to take part. Everyone was dressed up. Most had musical instruments of some sort which they played loudly. The total sound was...crazy, unpolished, out of tune completely and no one was keeping time properly. But it was a very joyful event that everyone regardless of expertise was able to take part in. It would have been easy to criticize, but somehow you couldn't because there was something beautiful about the whole thing that made you know God was there.

Confession and repentance gets rid of the sin part, deliverance the demonic, right? There is also emotional damage from past abuse that causes disturbances, I don't think that fits into either category but is responsible for a lot of disruptive and unholy behaviour. Loving each other regardless of how it looks is hard but takes care of everything in the end, if it is true love. Jesus never gives up on us, we need to be of the same mind.

Back to the deliverance point, the one I wanted to make before I sidetracked myself...if you were born again, and had faith, you could take authority over demonic strongholds in the name of Jesus, standing on sound Biblical ground, and have success. God doesn't lie. But is it true for someone who loves the brethren as much as someone who doesn't? Could you have a critical, perfectionist or religious spirit, and do the same thing with some success? My feeling is that love qualifies us for the job, and love will make sure it is done completely, along with any healing that is needed, or any speck removing, or any bearing of burdens, or any restoring of ones overtaken in a fault, in patience and kindness, seeing the responsibility through to a place where Jesus is enthroned in the heart. I presume willingness is the only requirement on both sides. Or have I got that wrong? Welcome your comments.

Love from Mary

Hi all,

I am glad I confessed my label "dyslexia"...I seem to have demonstrated the problem in this subject of deliverance... is it like Conservative and conservative meaning different things, that there is deliverance from sin and death and sickness etc., but also "deliverance" which has to do with liberating people from demonic occupation. Get me right with these labels someone please, deliverance means liberation yes? So does that mean that someone whose spiritual life spoke more of bondage (legalism, perfectionism, head knowledge) would be unlikely to have a genuine ministry of liberation much beyond appearances?

Sorry I can't keep this to myself, it is nagging at me. Next question, is it possible to be positionally delivered from all things previously against us, the penalty of sin etc.,but not know deliverance of that kind in what we do and how we live? Must be, surely. Deliverance is an ongoing matter at all levels with all of us. Our liberty is not perfected. I am trying to answer my own question! I have that terrible feeling everything has all gone quiet because of me, ha ha. Not to worry, if I can't be foolish with all of you, who can I be foolish with?

Who spiked the rum ration?

Love Mary

There is a difference between forgiveness and deliverance and God brings liberation with both of them. God may forgive your sin if you confess it but that does not stop any particular sin from getting to us repeatedly.

I agree with you Mary, that many will not want any part of a deliverance ministry because they have not been delivered from the bondage of their own legalism. As soon as a Christian becomes so perfect in their own mind that they do not think they need deliverance, the devil backs away from tempting him because that person is already just where he wants him. It may not make sense but I think that the more a person tries to do right through the spirit, the more the devil gets him to do wrong and we must fight all the harder but that there is a point that the devil will just have to leave us alone because it is a waste of his time and effort. I would like to see that in all of us but unfortunately, the cleanest looking people I know, don't have much of a spiritual life. That is what I call a dichotomy.

The writer of Hebrews gives this advice for those that have a sin that we can't get rid of.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

I believe what he is saying here is that even though we have a sin that gets to us, we should lay it aside and get on with the work of the Lord anyway. The problem that I have found with sin is that it makes me guilty enough sometimes to not feel worthy of doing the Lord's work. Deliverance is needed here to get rid of that type of sin, one that we may not seem to have power over. Some sins are easy to avoid, others are hard. We may not have to confess our secret sins, Paul had a thorn in the flesh, whatever it was, he didn't tell us what it is. I have problems with certain areas that I need deliverance from and I suppose if any one of us didn't, we couldn't know how to counsel others. That sounds hypocritical but I think along the lines of what Paul had to face to write the things he did in Romans and that he said that the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We just can't help it but we are to try and do what we can to come into perfection. We may never arrive, probably not, but it is in the trying that gets us closer to being like Jesus. We will not actually be delivered from this body until later, so sin is ever present but we can be progressively delivered from actual sin, at least in part. But that takes faith. Remember the demon that the disciples could not cast out of the lunatic? (Matthew 17) Jesus said these kinds only come out by prayer and fasting. Jesus rebuked His own disciples here as a "faithless and perverse generation." If Jesus put His own followers under these conditions, what is it that we can do? Pray for deliverance for ourselves and others, even knowing that we may not be qualified or worthy.


Hi Mary and all.

Deliverance is at the threshold of repentance. The gospel sets before us Christ and His Kingdom as against the world and its attractions; and urges upon us the necessity of choice. When the will, conscience-prompted and stirred into action by the high emotion of the heart, has made the choice, and has opened up life to the reign and rule of Christ, only the first step in the Christian life has been taken.

The gospel of the Spirit is a gospel of deliverance, for 'where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.' It sets men free. If we have the power of the indwelling Spirit of Life we can go to the most sin-bound and dehumanized specimens of humanity and say, Here I stand; while we speak you can be set free, there is nobody but the Spirit of Christ that can save you.

That victory is what fills the New Testament. And the key to the fullness of life in Christ for us can be found in facing honestly definite sins in His light, and refusing to let ourselves off. We need not fear to be honest with ourselves, however staggering be the revelation of the light. For the light of Christ is love. He has come to cleanse us from all iniquities. The deliverance is ours in Him. He has won it for us. We have only to see our need of it and then to claim it. We cannot possess it in any other way than as a gift.

So that to me, dear Mary, is positional deliverance. That is the way I see it. Maybe somebody can expand more thoughts on this subject.

Love you all---In Him Tim.
P.S. Our Lord comes

Hi Jay and everyone else of course! Feel free to say what you think...

I like what you said here, and I do think we all need deliverance in an ongoing way. It would be nice to think that the devil might leave us alone as not being worth the effort, like if he couldn't get away with it because we were fully alert and aware of what he was trying to do. But he is like a roaring lion, prowling about, seeking whom he may devour: he is watching for the entrance into an opportunity. Can't afford to be thinking that he might have left us alone.

When it is sin that is ongoing and persistent, it would be nice to have the help of others to get delivered. Trouble is in being pushed out of the church and abused by her it takes a while to gather the confidence to operate at that level which requires some trust that the abuse will not recur. Also I think we have seen on various lists that some people who have suffered abuse themselves can't seem to help passing that on to others in some way. The danger is in thinking that "they are wrong so we are right" and lifting ourselves up in an equal measure of pride. How do you get delivered of pride? I suppose if you are lifted up enough in it you don't see there is any problem, it is too big to see. Then God has to humble us if we won't humble ourselves.

But where then does the entrance of evil spirits come in, and the need to be delivered in this way. Is it that we allow entrance by being drawn away of our own lust, i.e the desire contrary to that of God, it is conceived and brings forth sin, and by this the enemy gets a foothold and an evil spirit gains entry? If so, all the more reason for being vigilant over pride, which I can see wedging the door open to antichrist and jezebel too, devastating whole congregations.

OK so we have a personal duty and capacity to resist the devil, remove the evil seed, keep the house clean, camp at the foot of the cross. Then the enemy pushes it harder hoping to force us into a position where we yield to him. Man it is happening to me at the moment. No energy to stand, let alone fight. But doing nothing is resisting. Trusting God and doing nothing in some cases might well be better than taking up arms in terms of resistance. "I am not playing that game! Back Off!"....we'll see how that works in the interim at least.

Something to aim for though is the church environment where deliverance is everybody's responsibility in seeking the well being and spiritual health of each other.

Thanks Jay for your teaching.

Love Mary

One truth about deliverance is that we all have issues in our lives from which we need deliverance regardless of how long we've walked with the Spirit of God. Our constant prayer must be...

Psa 139:23,24 "Search me, God, and know my heart. Try me, and know my thoughts. See if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way.

As my own mask comes off I come to all of you and ask that you would pray with me and for me as I seek Father's direction with regard to ministry. I recently received "upgraded credentials" from a group in the hope that this would make possible the opening of doors that currently remain closed to me. I struggled with the need for such an upgrade - knowing full well that we all are called as eye-witnesses to the power of the Gospel in our own lives and that we all are called to the ministry of reconciliation" according to scripture.

I struggle too, with "double-mindedness" desiring to serve Him fully full-time supported by faith in His providence alone - and this warring with my responsibility to "provide for my own or be found to be worse than an infidel."

I have other "warts" that will be unveiled as time goes on I'm sure.

For now I covet your prayers with regard to direction.

Father has shown me in the Spirit that our lives are like "heavenly currency" and in our willingness to make ourselves a living sacrifice He is able then to "spend our lives" in bringing about His heart desire in the world around us..."

Pray for our church which remains in shambles as I have written before, and whether it is time to come out of her and begin a new work that shows forth the awesome power of trusting Him as we gather together - led simply by the Spirit of God...

Thanks for your prayers in advance Bless you all eric

Hi Mary and all. Mary, you sure do ask very relevant questions. I had to resort to dictionaries and such, thanks I needed to study.

You wrote:

There is more than accepting that we have it or we would look in better shape by now. Do we have to take it by faith, and then walk about as though we have received it, until our bodies get the message, not taking our eyes off the Lord or looking backwards? Is that it? Or is that foolishness and positive thinking tarted up? And then can we do that for others, claim deliverance?

No it is not foolishness and positive thinking. And maybe it is me, but I have problems with certain aspects of claiming things. I think we can petition for others; for God is deliverance, because He is the God of deliverance. Like what Abraham did; he was granted the deliverance of Lot in the impending overthrow of Sodom. The only thing I personally claim is God's promises. Just me, another subject someday perhaps.

Every man knows the reality of the fact of sin. Every man has played the fool, thoughtlessly or willfully or wantonly. Every man has left the highway of truth and purity and honor to wander in forbidden fields. Every man has been traitor to his covenant and disloyal to his vow. Every man has missed the mark, and failed to rise to his high calling, and to achieve his destiny. Whether our iniquities or transgressions are written in any book of the eternal counsel or not, they are written in the indelible record of our own past.

All who spend their strength in winning men and women for Christ have times of disappointment. They see a man or woman confessing their faith with high rapture, and they rejoice in the clear note of steadfast assurance in their speech. Yet they are amazed to find that these ardent souls slip and fall, and they wonder if the work of grace has been real. They forget that sin is a habit with a habit's power. A man who has become a victim to strong drink has taken his vow of abstinence with deep emotion, and has begun to walk in a new strength and liberty. For a month or so all went well. Then he was seized in the grip of his old habit. Few understood the battle he had fought. Few knew the physical torture as the craving of his thirst assailed him. He fell. But he was not insincere, he was the victim of the tyranny of a habit.

Habit is the explanation of our defeat and failure, and the strange inconsistencies of our lives. This is a truth we continually forget in our estimates and judgments. We all fail in charity, and heaven forbid that we play the Pharisee in our merciless condemnation of those who have been caught in some open sin. For we forget the tyranny of habit. We do not realize how long the automatic action of our customs, tastes, moods, impulses, and even usages of our physical frame, retain their power. One reason why Jesus was so gentle in His judgments and so patient in His dealing, both with the passion-driven and with His own erring disciples, was His knowledge of the power of the habit of sin. Yet, if we change our hearts to be forbearing and forgiving to our fellow-men, we must be resolute with ourselves. The power of evil habit can be broken. For Christ came not only to take away our guilt, and to renew our wills, but to break the power of cancelled sin.

How does Christ save us from the moral and spiritual condition of sin? He has come to deal not only with our past, but to heal us in the core of our being, by the power of His regenerating Spirit. He has come to create a new heart within us, and to quicken us to that faith which brings us into a new attitude toward God. He has come to renew our will, so that, however hard may be our battle, we are intent on Keeping the commandments of God. The man who lays open his whole moral nature to the cleansing and renewing grace of God will find his soul redeemed.

How does Christ deal with the habit of sin? What moral question has more tormented universal humanity? Not by Oriental contemplation in its selfish idleness, not by the starving of the natural affections of our body which is God's, not by ascetic methods of prayer and obedience, but only by a complete surrender to Jesus, and a constant fellowship with Him, will the power of sin be broken.

So we can take not only our sad remembrances, our sorrows, and our lack of things desired, but our weakness and our fear, and every need of our soul to Christ, and, keeping ourselves in the love of God, come forth from every battle with the habit of sin more than conquerors through Him who loves us.


Heb. 11:35.---' Not accepting deliverance.'

Among the blessings which we connect with faith, one of the most conspicuous is deliverance. The Bible is a great record of deliverance effected through the agency of faith. Abraham was delivered from idolatry. Joseph was delivered from his brethren. David was delivered from Goliath, and Peter from the prison at Jerusalem. And, most notable of all, there was the Exodus, when Israel was delivered from its bondage---drawn out of Egypt, by the might of God, into the peril and the prize of liberty. All these are instances of deliverance, wrought in the power of a living faith. Men trusted God, and in the joy of trust were freed from darkness and captivity. And so the Bible, as we read its pages, grows into a great argument for this, that God is able and willing, if we trust Him, to equip us for the immanent task of His purpose; now and the future.

The same issue of faith also arrests us when we come into the company of Jesus. Here, too, as in the rest of Scripture, faith is a mighty power to deliver. We see the maniac released from legion, and sitting clothed and in his right mind. We see the withered arm restored again, the eye that had been blind regain sight. We see a woman delivered from infirmity, and a loved brother delivered from the grave, and a great company whose eyes are glad because they have been delivered from their sin. Christ was the great enemy of bonds. He was the lover and the light of liberty. He came to preach deliverance to the captives, and to bestow the gift which was His message. And so again we learn this happy lesson, that faith is a mighty power to redeem, and that in every sphere where faith is active, one of its blessed fruits is liberty---deliverance from captivity.

Yet while that is true, and gloriously true, in a way we should all know something of, there is a suggestion in our text that is fitting we should not forget. 'They were tortured, not accepting deliverance'---and the whole chapter is a song of faith. The chapter is a magnificent review of all that faith is powerful to achieve. So this is also a result of faith, not that it brings deliverance to a man, but that sometimes, when deliverance is offered, it gives him fine courage to refuse it. There are seasons when faith shows itself in taking. There are seasons when it is witnessed in refusing. There is a deliverance that faith rejects. They were tortured, not accepting deliverance---that was the sign and seal that they were faithful. There are hours when the strongest proof of faith is the swift rejection of the tolerant status quo.

Think in the first place of the martyrs, to whom our text immediately applies. When a man was charged with being a Christian, deliverance was always at his hand. He had only to blaspheme the name of Christ; a word or two of cursing---that was all. he had only to spit upon the name of Christ, when the Roman centurion scratched it on the wall. He had only to put his hand into a box, and take a grain or two of incense from the box, and sprinkle it without a single word before the beautiful statue of Diana. On the one hand was life, and life was sweet. On the other hand was death, and death was terrible. On the one hand was liberty and home. On the other hand was torture and the grave. And they were tortured, not accepting deliverance. They might have had it by a single word. It was their faith that led them to the scaffold. It was better to be faithful than to be free.

The same issue of faith is seen again amid the troubles of our common life. In precisely the same manner it is witnessed in the pettier martyrdoms of every day. Each of us has his cross to carry. There is no escaping from that law. For one the trouble may be in business matters; for another the cross may be at home; while for a third, perhaps, it is the body that wakes the heart to trembling in the night. Now, whatever be the trouble, Jesus Christ has come to preach deliverance. There is peace in Him, and quietness of soul, and conquest over death and all its terrors. But remember that there are other outlets which sometimes loom upon our gaze invitingly, and promise us the release that we are craving---if only we are untrue to our best selves. Probably all of us are tempted so, though these are temptations of which we seldom speak. Sometimes indeed we hardly understand them, they are so subtly hidden and disguised. But always there is a tempering with conscience in them, and a certain lowering

In Christ, timothy.


Deliverance Comes By Deliverers

Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt. --Exodus 3:9-10

Yes, if evangelical Christianity is to stay alive it must have men again--the right kind of men. It must repudiate the weaklings who dare not speak out, and it must seek in prayer and much humility the coming again of men of the stuff of which prophets and martyrs are made. God will hear the cries of His people as He heard the cries of Israel in Egypt, and He will send deliverance by sending deliverers. It is His way.

And when the deliverers come--reformers, revivalists, prophets--they will be men of God and men of courage. They will have God on their side because they are careful to stay on God's side. They will be coworkers with Christ and instruments in the hands of the Holy Spirit. Such men will be baptized with the Spirit indeed and through their labors He will baptize others and send the long-delayed revival. This World: Playground or Battleground?, 20.

"Lord, send those men to the church soon. Raise up a mighty army even among young people today who will become that kind of men. We need a great movement of the Spirit of God that would bring the much-needed revival. Amen."

A.W. Tozer Forwarded by the Lightship group

Joel 3:14.---'Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.'

This is a striking picture which the prophet draws. he sees the nations of the world gathering in the valley of decision, mustering their forces for the great, final battle against God. They have long been oppressing Israel, but now the tide has turned. God Himself is about to fight for His people. It is the day of the Lord, that day of judgment and decision, so often mentioned in the prophets, the day when God's cause will be vindicated and the supremacy of righteousness established. The oppressors of Israel will be destroyed. Once again the land will grow fertile when the invaders have been expelled. The vine will clothe the mountain-side, the dried up brooks will be musical with running water. God will be a refuge for His people, and will make His dwelling-place in Zion.

Let us take the prophet's picture and apply it to ourselves. Every day we are in the valley of decision; we are part of that great multitude which God saw in the valley. Every day we make choices, and choices go to form character. We are perpetually being called on to decide between alternatives. Let us then think about decision as an all-important factor in human life.

Is there any need to prove that we possess the power of choice, that God has given us a measure of freedom, and that we can select between good and evil? The final argument for the reality of human freedom is that we know that we are free. It may be difficult to refute logically the argument of the determinist, but, when we do wrong, we can never really satisfy our conscience by pleading circumstances, or training, or inherited disposition were the cause of our sinning. There is something within us which tells us that we need not have done what we did, that our own free will we chose the worse course. Our remorse is due just to this fact that we are aware that we possess this power of decision, and chose wrongly. When we are discussing the fact as to whether we have the power to choose or not we get back to this, "I know I could have done differently." Mortality becomes meaningless if its imperious "I ought" is not matched by an "I can" and I will."

It is true that this power of free choice, which belongs to us all, is not equally developed in every one. It is, in fact, something which is not so much a ready-made and realized possession as a capacity which we have to expand by exercise and training. We have to struggle to win our true freedom. Take the case of the young child. It clearly has some freedom. It is not a machine, but its life is largely governed by impulse, and it is very impressionable and easily ruled by the suggestions of others. It is also extraordinarily imitative, and copies its elders. We cannot feel that its freedom is anything very formed or mature. Its will-power is in the making; there are as yet no settled choices in its life. Or take the case of the child born and bred in a city slum, coming of a criminal stock, and surrounded by an atmosphere of vice and squalor. The scales are heavily weighted against that child. The power of choosing the good is there, but the inducements to evil are so strong that we feel that the child is handicapped from the start in the race of life. In this matter of freedom, then, we do not all enter upon existence at the same level, and in none of us is the will fully formed at the beginning. Hence, only God who sees all and knows all, all the struggles and temptations, all the handicaps due to heredity and circumstances---only God can pass a completely fair judgment on a human character.

This thought of freedom as something which we have to struggle to win, and of the will as in the making, is of special importance today, when compared to psychology, when we hear so much about the power of suggestion. Much psychological teaching today places the emphasis on the power of inherited tendencies and impulses, on the part played by the sub-conscious, and tends to make man the plaything of forces over which he has no real control. But the will is the citadel of personality; and, if there is any moral purpose at all in the universe, that purpose is to be found in the training of ourselves to make open-eyed decisions in life, to form noble characters, to be whole instead of a patchwork of fragments. To decide, and to decide strongly in that to which God calls us all.

How solemn is this thought of the valley of decision! Each of us is responsible to God for the choices which he makes. None can avoid the responsibility. And all our life long we are in the valley, choosing daily, hourly. And imperceptibly, but surely, the choices add themselves together and form the settled habit of temper. Every day on the loom of our life the pattern of character is being woven. We must not allow circumstances to mould us nor take our tone from the society round us, As we call our will into play and learn to decide, our manhood will have a chance to develop as god means it to develop. So much is at stake. Everything which is really worth having is at stake---manhood, character, truth, eternity. The call comes to us today to range ourselves on the side of the eternal things, to be men and women of decision.

But someone may say, "You tell us to decide, and to strengthen our wills; but how can I fight alone and unaided, all my temptations?" We have not to fight alone. Let us remember the secret of the prophet's confidence. He knew which way the fight in the valley was going, because he knew that God was on the side of His people. His strength was their strength. All the resources of His power were at their disposal. Has God changed? Does He leave us alone today and unaided? Why, the very heart of the message of Christianity is that Christ can give us power. Christianity is a religion of life and power. And so, as we seek to train our wills, let us not forget that the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of the Living Christ, is waiting to reinforce any efforts we may make. Think what suggestion does. You open your minds to receive this truth as a new influences. New thoughts, new ideals are suggested to you; and gradually, as you yield yourself to them, you are transformed.

If human agency can do that, are we going to say that the creative, life giving Spirit of God cannot do infinitely more? Let him, then, who would strengthen his will, who would pass through the valley of decision master of himself and of the fight, seek the aid of the Spirit of God.

In Christ, timothy.


Yes, very true! And isn't it interesting that we live in the "land of the free" ? And that one of the gleaming symbols in our country is the statue of "liberty", which isn't biblical freedom at all. And of course "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" aren't biblical doctrines ether..... no wonder we are in trouble. You are right, everyday is frought with choices to obey God or not.

just my ponderings....


Good ponderings Joanne, It's good that we have people here that believe in our free will. Not that we need to use it except to make the choice to follow the spirit of the Lord and have His thoughts and His word guide our paths but it is good to know that we are among friends on this subject. And good writing Tim, as I mentioned on the chat room, I am reading Calvin's Institutes. Not to get into that kind of theology, it is, I think, better for most of not even to know about these controversies and just love each other like we are supposed to do.

Deliverance is related to free will as far as I am concerned, if we think that our faith has nothing to do with salvation because it is a "work" or that we do not need to seek spiritual deliverance from sin because it is too much like "works," we run into real dangers. Many have, that's for sure.



I think we get confused in the difference between salvation/deliverance which is FREE and is by grace and sanctification, which is deliverance from our old man/sin nature. I just did a teaching on this actually. The unbeliever's warfare is for deliverance from the god of this world who has blinded the minds of unbelievers. The Christians warfare is a multi-dimensional sin issue and must be defined in the proper balance: We war against the flesh, the world and demonic forces. It's personal - from within - warfare of the flesh sin is social from without - warfare of the world sin is supernatural from above - this is spiritual warfare in the cosmic realm.

Anyway, this is what must be worked out in the believer's life, with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course!

Interesting topic


Tim, I am grateful to you for the phrase "the peril and prize of liberty"

Hi all,

There is a definite sense that we are to be delivered from safety and security where it becomes something that prevents us from moving on in the Lord.

There are significant moments in our walk with God where we are being asked to leave the comforts and securities we know and are familiar with in the pursuit of our destiny and our inheritance in God. At first sight, when the challenge to move forward arises in our minds, unless we are focused on what the Lord is doing there is panic and fear and a reluctance to leave go.

Sometimes we do not know to what extent our trust has developed in familiarity, the status quo, the things we can touch and feel and see and have become used to. How subtly our eyes have fallen from the standard of trust in God that He desires. Sometimes when this is the case some of our foundational security has to go.

These times we are now in necessitate a renewal of our commitment to depend on God alone for all that we need. If we will determine to pass the test, we will not only glimpse our destiny but face every difficulty like we are on the winning side, like we are already the conquerors that God wants us to be.

How will we learn to fly like eagles if we are determined to cling on to the nest?

How we will face and succeed in the future if we are determined to hold on to the past?

With our increasing maturity we have not yet learned how to handle authority of the spiritual kind, but it will come. There is a time when we are left a little too hungry to want to stay in that nest, where the spirit is more willing than the flesh is weak, where the growing need and desire to be who we are in the Lord is pushing us to step off the edge and prove it. We have discussed deliverance, and we have known it by degrees. Is there such a thing as absolute deliverance which exists out there in the open sky? We won't know that until we go for it. Theorising and discussion have their place, but action proves their worth. If we have learned, then presumably we can do. If we cannot do, we have not learned.

Now is not the time to get comfy. It is the time to take stock of our situation with an honest heart and consider what is needed to bring us into the glorious liberty that we are promised, that ought to be a reality among the true children of God. There are many kinds of bondage that we have been living under, there is much to be delivered from and much that holds us back. But our biggest enemy is the content of our desire, how much do we want to be free? Dear ones how hungry are we now for the things of God? Is that hunger sufficient to drive us to seek God's total provision in and despite the total absence of fleshly comfort, whether emotional or physical?

There are risks to what I am suggesting, there are risks of giant proportions. It is impossible to think of leaving dead familiarity for the promised land of love and power and liberty without something of a Caleb spirit which properly measures those risks with the keen and mature eye of faith, and an unwavering trust in the God we serve, who is greater than all.

It is well to be wise here that we do not trade one set of chains for another, one nest for another, one set of familiar physical circumstances for yet more of the same. The stepping out and leaving behind is not an encouragement to give up on our commitments and responsibilities within our current circumstances: we should be careful not to attempt to resolve physical discomfort with physical changes, or we will find ourselves facing the same challenge, and no further forward. The call is much more one of the Spirit to a change of heart, of mind, and of will to accomplish by the Spirit those things that God is asking that we do, in spite of the risks and challenges and difficulties and hardships that we are facing, and are going to face. It is time to approach the edge of the nest with confidence. We have been cared for and provided for. Nothing that has happened to us has been able to convince us that God is not who He says He is. Why then are we so reluctant to trust Him that He has provided all we need to step into our glorious future?

Father, we know we are your children, we recognise that we belong to You and to each other. For so long we have lived as though we do not know you, and have compromised our testimony, so that we are making little impact in the world. Lord they are asking "where is their God?"; they are seeing us suffering and struggling and we have not convinced them that they need you. Lord we want to fly like eagles. Lord we want to be the people you want us to be. Lord forgive us our reluctance to let go of bondage and oppression and familiarity. Deliver us into your glorious liberty. Deliver us into the place of maturity in you where we may use the authority that you have given us, to crush the powers of darkness and buy back the lost. We want to be free, and we want to see others set free. We know you have equipped us, give us that Holy boldness we need to face the enemy head on, in Jesus' Mighty Name! AMEN

Satan, we curse you, in Jesus' Mighty Name! We crush you and your influences among us and consign you to the past where you will belong forever, in Jesus' Mighty Name!


God bless you,

Love from Mary

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