Can of Worms and the Communion of Saints
Twice now, the discussion of judgment and resurrections is likened to a
can of worms. I can see them now. If you are fishing, you only need one
worm to bait the hook, but what happens when the can is opened. If they
are all slimy and wiggling around, all trying to get out at once and
going off in different directions, you may have a problem getting
quickly back to the fishing. If you are queasy at all, it makes it even
harder to get them back into the can. Yuk. Others have no problem with
it at all.
Of course getting into these discussions are not as low on the food
chain as these worms and those of you that are keeping up are getting
fed whether you find it as intriguing as I or not. It is really hard to
focus on one part of the judgment resurrections because each question
opens so many other questions. We are bringing up salvation and
damnation, Jesus reigning in our hearts now and reigning over the
nations later, a physical temple or a spiritual one, time and eternity,
physical death and spiritual death, rebirth, baptism, heaven, hell and
the kingdom, millennial positions, sleep and translation and each
question here opens a new can of worms. I think that the best answers to
these questions are made this time with "the Lord has deliberately made
the eschatological aspects of the final judgment difficult to put into a
clear order of events," and "it's not what we know but who we know that
will count most." At this, we are reminded that some revelations are to
remain closed for a time but we should understand more perfectly as the
day draws near.
In perspective, what we have learned here is that it is appointed once
to die and then the judgment and judgment begins at the house of God.
The key here is not faith, except without true faith, we cannot come to
God; the key here is humility. If we truly die to ourselves, we may live
and we are judged righteous. Those that cannot humble themselves before
God and rather try to live the Christian life in pride, cannot really
believe in Him enough to be an obedient servant. The understanding of
eternity is to know God and understand His "I Am" nature. To be the
eternal I Am is pure existence. God simply is and when we truly enter
into His Holy Place, we may be assured of that divine nature and that we
have passed from death unto life.
The points raised in this list have been good and we can learn much from
the responses, this time and of the previous ones. Edwin starts out here
at the risk of appearing troublesome by trying to define some of the
terms discussed. Rather than adding to the confusion, I can really bear
witness to the points raised and would direct you to consider what he is
saying here. Also in Paul's teaching of physical and spiritual
manifestations.
However, I find it a fascinating subject in that I would rather know the
answers than to have so many questions. We can come away knowing more
than we did before and we have had some truly good revelations on the
subject. We may never know enough to really understand these things
completely. For me, anyway, but I am still learning. That said, I am
looking forward in time to understand these things more fully.
Even so, I would like to take this discussion one step further. No one
has yet taken me up on the communion of saints for reasons that should
be obvious. What we have been discussing up to now on the issue of the
resurrection judgments is not too controversial and for the most part
has not been divisive. Some of these things remain a mystery and some
things we may know and agree on. The doctrine of the resurrection is
considered a principle of Christ and if so, it is the fact of our
spiritual birth that is the important thing. But what of those that have
gone? Are they not also saved as we are being saved? If eternal life
begins when we are reborn, are they not still part of the same body as
we?
The bible teaches three heavens. The first heaven is the firmament that
we can see by looking up, the second is the starry heavens beyond our
world and the third heaven is in the realm of God. When Jesus was
baptized, heaven opened up and the dove descended, Jesus was later
received into heaven, John saw heaven opened, angels descend from
heaven, those in heaven rejoice, there are signs from heaven, our reward
is in heaven, the saints will come down from heaven, there is bread that
comes from heaven and our names are written there. Elijah and Enoch were
taken up into heaven, Stephen looked and saw heaven opened up and Paul
was caught up to the third heaven. No matter how we look at it, there is
a heaven above and if Jesus is there preparing a place for us and we are
to be as the angels of heaven, then we shall also be there.
Also in heaven are those that have gone before us; this is our blessed
hope. That means that the communion of saints must include those that
are with us here in bodily form and also those that are with Jesus in
eternity.
Now before I am accused of heresy, know that the communion of saints is
the orthodox position, for the most part, only unbelievers and puritan
fundamentalists deny it. And before I am accused of necromancy, know
that the Bible teaches that God is the God of the living and not of the
dead. If our loved ones in the Lord are resurrected into an eternal
realm then they are in heaven now. The issue between the Pharisees and
Sadducees was that one believed in the resurrection and one did not. The
answer again was that God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The
early church Father's believed in it as well as the mystics, but as far
as I know, it was not popularized until Saint Augustine. I believe that
the unity of all the saints is a tremendous power that the church of
today should be restored to.
Certainly, we should have the faith to pray for ourselves but we would
think nothing of asking others in the body of Christ to also pray for
us, especially those that we know are close to Jesus. How much more so
those that have been glorified in heaven. Those that have gone on are
with the Lord now and are of the same body of Christ that we are. Either
we believe that they are in heaven now and in a glorified state or we do
not. I believe in the resurrection of believers and I believe that time
is different than eternity and I believe that if the saints are to be
coming with Jesus that they are there now. I believe then, this is a
valid argument to have saints that are alive now in communion with those
that have departed. There is but One Body. Putting these things into
proper perspective is to hold these truths that we already believe as
obvious conclusions to the issue of the communion of saints.
There has been division over this issue but if we truly believe in a
resurrection and that God is God of the living, then there should be no
problem with it.
What do you think?
Jay
Jay:
I would like to add to the confusion by giving some definitions of
the
terms that have surfaced: I may get into all kinds of trouble by what I
am
about to say, but that doesn't seem to bother me much. I am an old man,
and I
have weathered a lot of storms. Some of the following may conflict
strongly
with the beliefs of some of our friends, but the following are not meant
to
be dogmatic statements, but merely as points of departure for future
discussion. This is taking most of a night, so please hang in there with
me.
Subsequent lessons taught the disciples to "have faith," which was
obviously the next step. They found themselves in a boat on the lake. A
storm
came up. One time, Jesus was asleep in the back of the boat; another
time, He
was not even in the boat. He chided them for their lack of faith. Then
He
showed them the meaning of faith, by speaking to the storm, telling it
to
stop. Faith, therefore, meant to be able to do the things Jesus could do
by a
word of command.
Other lessons in faith involved giving food to great crowds of
people
with a boy's box lunch. Later, faith meant being able to deliver an
epileptic
boy, cursing an unproductive fig tree. Believing in Jesus, means being
able
to do His thing. This too is eternal life.
Eternal life starts for us when we start to believe in Jesus in the
sense
described above. It is a life of utter dependence on Him and obedience
to Him.
Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were also spiritually alive. This
meant
that their spirits were in a right relationship with God. Their spirits,
under God, were in command of their souls and their bodies. Since the
Fall,
the desires of the flesh and the emotions are in command. The spirit, no
longer in touch with God, is dead. This is known as spiritual death.
When
Paul speaks about our passing from death into life, he is talking about
our
spiritual rebirth and its continuation. We walk as those who have been
raised
from death into life.
I believe the passage in 1Thessalonians 4 is talking about physical
death
and resurrection. Those who "sleep" are those who have departed this
earthly
life. He says that when Christ comes, they will be resurrected (Probably
with
new resurrection-type bodies). Those who are on earth at the time, will
be
transformed (have their bodies changed into resurrection-type bodies)
The stunt, of course, is to determine in all cases when Scripture is
talking about physical life and death and when it is talking about
spiritual
death and life.
When we receive Jesus, we break out of time and into eternity. They who
believe in Jesus have eternal life (John 6:47). Those who eat His flesh
and
drink His blood have eternal life (John 6:50). Jesus' sheep hear His
voice
and He gives them eternal life (John 10:21). Eternal life is a gift of
God
(Rom 5:21; 6:23). God gave us eternal life and this life is in His Son.
(I
John 5:11). Eternal life is not dependent on our physical life, it is
not
dependent on time, it is not dependent on the limitations of our earthly
existence. It begins when we accept Jesus, and it continues beyond time
and
space limitations. Our life after this physical death is simply a
continuation of the eternal life that we have experienced in Jesus since
our
conversion.
Jesus taught that those who endured to the end (not those who got taken
our
to the way) would be saved.
When Jesus comes again, it would be unwise for the saints to take
off
some place. If they go out as far as a cloud to meet Him, they ought
then to
come on back down to earth where He is planning to establish His Kingdom
in
its fullness. If they take off some place, they will miss all the fun
and
find themselves separated from Him and His purposes.
Jesus said that those who did not believe (that is, who resisted
understanding or accepting Who He is) were already judged. In John 5,
Jesus
is quoted as telling the unbelieving Jewish leaders about His authority
to
judge. He speaks of this judgment in the present tense, implying that
right
then and there He could pass judgment. The implication seems to be that
the
future final judgment is a continuation or culmination of the judgment
that
happens all along.
Jesus also talks about the disciples' judging the twelve tribes of
Israel
(Matthew 19:18). When does this happen?
There is a judgment that is intended to be corrective. In 1
Corinthians 5, Paul exercises his right as an apostle to speak this kind of judgment
and in fact encourages the congregation to exercise this kind of judgment.
Final judgment is, of course, in the hands of the Lord. I imagine
that,
at Judgment Day, we will be in for some surprises.
I have written more than I intended to. I know that it is not very
well
organized and some of it is probably not adequately thought through. But
I
hope it will give some of our friends some food for thought and prompt
some
further responses.
In Jesus' love
Edwin Stube
Hi Jay, I really don't have time today to write this in any detail but
the
issue of a second judgement has come up. I was watching a documentary by
a
Toronto Jew who was in search of the lost tribes of Israel. This man is
a
world class documentary filmmaker and a serious seeker of truth. He was
able
to locate many tribes that still had not returned to Israel. Now from
his
Point of view he had to ask if there were any Levite priests available
to
serve in the restored temple. He was able to identify a group on an
island
off the coast of Africa in the Mediterranean Sea. The visuals were of
them
worshiping and dancing, and proclaiming the coming of their Messiah.
I was touched by the sincerity of their desire for the Lord. They were
real
seekers, and I asked the Lord what He was going to do. This is what I
understood Him to say....
The time of the gentiles is not over until He returns and comes as the
Messiah for Israel. The temple will be established in Jerusalem and
Jesus
will rule and reign there for 1000 years. All that is promised to the
Israel
for a physical deliverer will happen. There is a physical manifestation
of
His kingly rulership and a spiritual. There is a spiritual judgement and
a
physical judgement. There is a spiritual temple (our hearts) and a
physical
temple. There is a physical covenant (old) and a spiritual covenant
(new).
When Jesus returns He will be the Messiah coming to deliver Israel.
There is
a 1000 years in which the Spiritual temple (His people) will assist Him
in
His rule, then a judgement.
Paul Weigel
September 27, 2000
You have really opened a large can of worms with your questions
about
judgment and time and eternity. This has brought to the surface a lot of
misconceptions as well as many true revelations.Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
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