Time and Eternity
We can understand the first resurrection of believers as being posited
in this life. Jesus is our resurrection. When we are baptized, it is the
symbol of our being raised into newness of life. It is not the baptism
in itself that saves you but without that obedience to gospel mandate,
we can argue that we may not truly be saved.
We are not laying any new foundations here, only trying to come unto the
understanding that the early apostles had on the resurrection issue.
Doctrines concerning the resurrections are foundational principles and
as long as there is confusion, we need to work it out before we can go
on to perfection (Hebrews 6). There is also the possibility that we may
never work it out but if it is foundational, it should also be
understandable as the milk of the word.
Even so, Paul calls the resurrection a "mystery" in 1 Corinthians 15:51
"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all
be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must
put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." With
God's help, we can certainly understand these mysteries but Paul also
speaks of this mystery in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 saying, "But I would not
have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we
believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in
Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word
of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the
Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself
shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord."
Many Christians think that this is the rapture described here as well as
the resurrection of those that sleep. Just understand that this is as
the last trumpet is sounded, not the first. To clear up part of my
confusion, I looked at the verse in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 very carefully
- "even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If
they are asleep, awaiting resurrection, how can God bring them with Him
when Jesus comes to raise them up. They must somehow already be raised
up and wherever God is.
The immediate translation of the saints can be explained through an
understanding of time and eternity. In our spirits, we all believe that
our friends and loved ones that died in the Lord are in heaven now, not
asleep. This also confirms our understanding (or lack of it) to the
communion of saints. To be "in" Jesus is to have passed from death to
life already. When our temporal existence in relation to time is over,
life in eternity begins. This is the way that the thief on the cross
could today be in Paradise. In eternity, time is no longer relevant to
us, we undergo the change that transcends this temporal existence that
makes us like God because we are in His realm and able to know Him as He
is. So it is not really life that is over at death but rather the
temporal condition of time. It is the dead in Christ only in our
relation to time; as far as eternity is concerned, it is from temporal
life to eternal life. Paul speaks of those that sleep but would just be
sleeping as regards to our position in time. The eternal realm has no
beginning and no end. As far as it relates to heaven, the departed
saints are there now and according to our understanding of eternity
always have been, even before the foundation of the world. Mysterious,
yes. Impossible to understand, maybe for some, but for me it is easy to
accept this explanation.
Then for myself, I need to re-evaluate my thinking concerning those in
the Lord that sleep and those that have already been translated for me
to understand the kingdom. Many of them at least seem to be all of the
same and it is only in our relationship to time that there is a
difference. Now we come to the problem of just who populates the
kingdom, assuming there is still a kingdom to come and the
pre-millennialists are correct in their understanding. Why would the
saints come back down to earth after being in heaven, which is the
ultimate reward? Someone below wonders what need we even have of a
millennial reign. Now would be the time for those with an a-millennial
position to exert themselves. There may truly be only one judgment, just
at different times for the different judgment verdicts. This is still
not clear to me.
Also, no one has taken me up on the communion of saints. How many times
have we recited the Apostle's Creed? I believe in it 100%. In it we
affirm that we believe in the communion of saints. How many of us say it
without understanding what it means just because we are unified in a
group that recites it together? What do you think it means? Extreme
fundamentalists close their mind to the subject because we are unable to
commune with the dead but God is the God of the living. What do you
think?
Jay
Dear Jay,
1 John 2:27 says "As for you, the anointing you received from Him
remains in
you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing
teaches
you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit -
just
as it has taught you, remain in Him.
I felt the Lord showing me that walking in the Spirit will be essential
to
our being able to stand in the times ahead. But many have been 'under'
the
anointing which the Lord has so generously poured out, but they have not
received the anointing 'in' them, and there is a very great difference.
There was a time when great care was taken to ensure that new Christians
were baptized 'in' the Holy Spirit, but now much is assumed to have
taken
place, when it has not. It is possible for a person to minister 'under'
an
anointing which has been released over a meeting, but it doesn't mean
that
the anointing is 'in' them.
Simple observations I guess, but that is what HE has been drawing my
attention to.
Blessings,
Salutations and greetings Jay,
Paul says that it is appointed unto men once to die then the judgement.
So,
what's the problem? I look at it simply without years of Theological
discussion like this:
When we are saved, we die.
Then we are born again (1st resurrection).
When Jesus returns, the earth is destroyed as in II PET 3:10.
On that same day is the resurrection (2nd) of the dead. The living have
no
need of a resurrection since they are already alive!!!
The 2nd death that REV 20 speaks of is being thrown in the lake of fire
for
eternity. The saved have no fear of this death.
As I see it, I have already died the 1st death when I died with Christ.
I had the first resurrection when I was raised up with Him in baptism,
then
He empowered me with His Holy Ghost that I may not fear the second
death,
HOWEVER, we must all face the judgement. Both good and evil must face
this.
MATT 25:32-33 says: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he
shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep
from
the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats
on the
left.
I believe in only one judgement. It doesn't make sense to God to have
two.
Why? Can't He do it all at ONCE? Isn't there enough room at the
Judgement
Hall?
Please excuse me for being sarcastic. I mean to offend no one. Comments
are
very welcome and appreciated! Jay, eschatology is a wonderful thing. I
cannot
get into the setting of times, places and scenarios. Just knowing that
there
is a judgement, my concern is to be as ready as possible and to help
prepare
others so that when that DAY does come, we will all stand there and let
the
BLOOD speak for us.
Thank you for listening. Bless the Lord. Glory. Love in Jesus, Joseph
(Ap77joseph@cs.com)
Jay,
What need is there for a second meal after you have already been fed and
are
full? What need is there for a second judgement when you have already
been
judged? We worship a living, powerful, magnificent God. A God of love,
mercy, truth and incredibly - justice. I say incredibly because I find
it
highly remarkable that we have been taught all of our lives to "be fair"
only to find that being "just" is far above and beyond "being fair."
Justice has everything to do with judgement. And justice is only
necessary
- one time. The interpretations of judgements and the seat of judgement
are
compelling, however, there is one element of thought that is missing
from
them: The final judgement is just that - THE FINAL JUDGEMENT.
There is only one, and it will happen to all of us. Jesus gave us the
true
teaching concerning the coming of the Son of Man:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven,
but
my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming
of
the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:36 - 37) and "Watch therefore: for ye
know
not what hour your Lord doth come." (Matthew 24:42) "Who then is a
faithful and wise servant, whom his Lord hath made ruler over His
household,
to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his Lord
when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, that He
shall
make him ruler over all His goods." (Matthew 24:45 - 47) After this,
there
will be no need to judge again.
Bill Caraway
September 19, 2000
I enjoy the questions that you raise. This is just a small point, but
recently the Lord has been showing me that many are coming into the body
and
are saved in that they know and have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord of
their
lives, but they are not walking in the Spirit. This is why many cannot
stand firm when the pressure comes on as it does and surely will to
greater
and greater degrees.
Judith Grobelny
God bless you and this site. I see that you have again truly opened up
another "can" of worms. Congratulations. Keep up the blessed work.
As I was reading some of the letters, it occurred to me that some
believe in
two resurrections, two judgements, millennial reign. However, having
read the
Word and several of the available books on these subjects, I still do
not see
(I may need help on this), why there would be a need in God's plan for a
1,000 year reign on Earth?! He certainly reigns now in the hearts of men
for
a time until Jesus returns!!
As the waters of understanding build upon the banks of revelation, the
judgement comes. A mighty harbinger of all thought is the understanding
that
whenever we need, whenever we ask, whenever we seek or knock, or even
challenge, God already knows. The bible is the inspired word of God.
It
straightforwardly reveals all that we need to know. In light of this
understanding, God springs forth from the life-giving waters of truth
with
the valid statement: "God is not the author of confusion."Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
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