New Things

Well as you can see the first new thing is that we are rid of the Topica Ads. M. Adrienne Hawthorne has graciously consented to host our list on her server at New Life Webs. Neat, huh.

Something different this time, for the first time, I have nothing to teach, little to pass along from the list, no consensus. Taking care of business this time but read on and you will see that it is for the body as well as for this one particular little ministry.

I have been in prayer for the next stage of what I have been doing and that is to bring in funds. The answer that I received is "if you are ready." I have avoided it all this time and even refused those who wished to tithe to the ministry. Well, I have not been ready but I sure am now. I have been ready to be ready most of my life but most of my life has been spent in financial mediocrity. Content with spiritual blessings, I have never been rich with this world's goods, never wanted to be, still don't, but it is not about all that. Ministry is different in that I have only wanted to be a blessing to the poor and minister to the body. My friends and family have never understood this. The message I receive from the body is "feed me." To do that in full measure requires more than I have been able to give so I need to put away my trepidiation and disdain for lucre and take on this new thing now in that God is ready. Just Sunday, my Parents gave me a newspaper article on paypal and amazon honor system, prophets have been in touch with me telling me that the Lord is ready to transfer wealth, five-fold today articles are stressing the fact and the awesome responsibility that will come with it.

Until this time, I have been in a tent-maker ministry like Paul was but I have had very little income since I broke my back last fall so now I am forced to do what is necessary. Glory to God. I have even had appeals for a tape ministry but it would be foolish to ask my wife for the money. Donation requests will now be going on my site but not at the top like so many but down on the bottom. It will have to be the spirit of God that brings in giving, my priority is that He gets the glory and honor and all the praise.

For some time now, I have been wanting to release a Latter Rain CD. It first began as a clone of the web site but as I went along, I started saving Bible programs, study aids and historical writings. The web site on the CD became redundant, it's too hard to adapt and keep updated anyway. The more I stashed away great things for the CD, the more others would put material in my way that I would add so it is now almost full.

It is nearly ready, go see all that it offers at There is no price on it but I guess you could say it is priceless pearls of Christian wisdom and the wealth of the deeper things of God. Some have been amazed how easy it is for me to respond to Bible questions and quote things so quickly. Hey - my computer is optimized with search and find capabilities given over to the power of the Lord's spiritual processor working hand and hand with Wintel. I am not so smart, I just do my homework. Nuff said, go see this CD page. I have Amazon giving set up, Pay Pal when it is approved.

More than what the Lord is doing with me is what He is about to do among the body of Christ and what I would now like the group to discuss. The prophetic voice is changing concerning the transfer of wealth to the righteous. What is your opinion on that? Have you heard anything from the Lord one way or another? In the past, it was isolated voices with the desire for these things to pass but then nothing comes of it. It has damaged the credibility of some ministries that have gone ahead of God's timing and started chasing the dollar instead of ministering. We need to wait upon clear direction and God's prophets that have not sold out need to be heard.

Also this time, get back to me as to what would you like to see included in the Latter Rain CD that is not already there and if you have anything to send that you think should be included. There is 462 Mb already on it, leaving around 150 Mb left. That leaves a lot of room for more text files, programs are a lot bigger. I have included a lot of old historical material, how about some contemporary writers? There is no reason that it could not include two CD's if we had enough for them.

Other suggestions that you have for raising funds would be appreciated. I want more than an on-line ministry, I want to help the poor. Who knows? This could lead to some serious co-op endeavors but ...... listening to the Lord first!! "Tarry until you are endued with power from on high." I have thanked many for their moral support but financial will be a first. I am not going to beg but just make it available and see where the Lord leads.

Most of the responses this time were from the Yahoo forum and were in response to the initial travail and sorrow and the question of betrayal, read on. For the most part, I see a real compassionate tenderness in the response to travail. Others have been going though the sorrow that I have for the church and this empathy seems necessary for spiritual growth. There was the mention of the "dark night of the soul" as well as some discussion on Israel.


Howdy Jay,

I sympathize with you over the state of the church and how Judah yet has to 'yet' be brought in___________? Here let some of my own hard experience shed some hard core realities- Judah, as Jews world-wide and particularly Israeli's are 'hard-hard' (Like outa Old Test.!) and today they are mostly 'apostate'. I mean by this that they are disgusted in religion per se and I must add the standard Christian (What they believe) message is and has been!

In this there is actually hope- hope in that when 'the time of the gentiles are fulfilled' they will have a chance to finally hear, for they won't be caught-up in 'out of it doctrine'! For the alternative is then- that the 12K out of tribe & Judah of (Rev. 7) is the Messianic's & Jews for Jesus!? I somehow cannot buy that (They are to standard 'church' if you will only with some legalisms and Shabbot thrown in!) Thus I am personally waiting for God to move in this area particularly. Dig this, the prophesy of John the Baptist's father that 'he' (his son) would 'turn the hearts of the fathers to the children' was fuliiled. Yet Joel's complete prophesy still remains to be fulfilled- 'and the hearts of the children to the Fathers'! This is a little way out, but those stuburn hearted 'Jews' still have a much more indepth relationship with The Father than does the church! Yes, 'he who has the son has the Father also'! Yet still their understanding of who God is and most of the Old Test. on the whole is much deeper than any church or even Messianic's I've met. Again, more time will reveal much more.

These days researching putting together another Christian web site for tours through NYC & US (Used to do them in Israel and Cenetral America before that) Yet, 'unless God builds the house we labore in vain'.

OK, gotta run- bless you in all the promises in Yehoshua,

B. Al

PS you are as effective as the resistence you encounter (Also remember the 'Paul syndrome'- he who is against you today, God can and sometimes does use tomorrow.)

Only two powers can we serve

This is a very good teaching and parallels what we have been discussing concerning those who have donned His wedding garment and those who have put on another garment.

Those who receive Christ and the garment that He provides for us are those who walk after His Spirit. The man in the parable of the wedding banquet who did not have on the appropriate garment could be likened to those who walk after the flesh.

There are only two groups found within Christianity...those who walk after His Spirit and those who walk after the flesh. The gap between these two groups is widening more each day as the Lord said it would.

In this article Jesuswon said that some walk after the flesh, but believe they are walking after His Spirit. This is a good description of coming to His Table, but not having on the appropriate garment. This also could describe the verses where Jesus said that to some He would say, "Depart from Me, I never KNEW you!" Walking after the Spirit causes one to continuously have an intimate relationship with the Lord, coming to KNOW HIM more each day, being changed from glory to glory into the image of Christ. Walking after the flesh causes one to drift away from this personal relationship with Him, and exchange this relationship with natural works, religion, and traditions. This is having a form of religion but denying the power of Christ in your life, to change you into His Image. It is building an idol in your own name, an image of your own likening, that you begin to worship above the Name of the Lord, and above His Word.

Walking after His Spirit causes one to walk in Truth, and walking after the flesh causes one to walk in error. Both groups exist with Christianity today. One group dwells in His Light, while the other dwells in the darkness of their own minds.

Walking after the flesh causes one to walk contrary to the Word of God. Walking after the Spirit causes one to be led into all Truth. Walking after the Spirit causes one to see their need for His judgements upon their life. Walking after the flesh deceives one into thinking that righteousness can be achieved in the flesh. One continuously seeks after Him, the other believes they have learned all He is. One sees the sinfulness of their flesh and realizes that only the Lord can cover the shame of their nakedness. The other is deceived into thinking that the works of the flesh is the appropriate covering, and is pleasing to Him.

One discerns by His Spirit good and evil, Truth or error, walking in the Way He leads each day. The other discerns from their natural mind which is at enmity with His Spirit, and is led astray from following only Him. Walking after His Spirit brings spiritual sight and hearing, and walking after the flesh causes deafness and blindness to spiritual Truth. His Spirit brings Life to those who rely only upon Him, and those who rely upon the flesh are spiritually dying, and don't even know it.

Blessings, Lorraine

I must admit, I am concerned that we often make the Gospel a complicated matter, when it isn't. I know I wished it was in the beginning when I heard it: I had spent years developing, modifying and fine-tuning my opinions that I had got very fond of them. Then, when I got saved, it was a very uncomplicated thing. The Lord changed me. I thought I knew my way around my interior so well, it was a total surprise when new things began to happen, and I'm still looking with wonder at each new thing as it arises. They seem to be simply there to pick up, like pebbles on a beach - no matter if others think they are only pebbles!

There are a lot of hungry people about, searching for, they know not what. Really hungry people need simlpe food, easily assimilated. Nouvelle cuisine in Spiritual terms could amount to a cruel tease to a seeking heart. We need a lot more of what a beloved preacher called "the bang flat Truth".

Matt 11:25 " At that time, Jesus answered and said,' I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes'"

Also Matt. 18:3,4 - Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I just think that is so beautiful.

Lots of love from Mary

I see the sword as many things in scripture and usually refers to the Lord. We know that the sword of the spirit is the word of God. The sword is a two edged sword which means it is sharp and used for division. When the fire comes, it will be a sword between the true and the false, the righteous and the unrighteous, the separation of the wheat from the chaff, so it is part of the harvest. The good and the evil will be distinguished because the truth will be brought to light.

Gleaning is another subject in that we should not be so quick to judge and slow to anger. There are many in the body of christ that needs to be brought along gently right now and do not need the petty condemnation brought against them by many of the prophets in the five-fold. Many will be burnt in the fire but for some, it will be a purifying agent. There are many prophets that think that they are part of the judging and condemnation but they are out of place. The denunciation is to be brought into the high places, the oppression, the abuses, the discrimination and false authority from government, high officials and bastions of mammon. This is not a popular subject but there will be those of the spirit of Elijah that will bring down these things. I want to be among the ones that use the sword of truth to cast down the high places and not be among those that use the sword to cut up my brothers and sisters.


Hi everyone,
Thank you Jay A. for jogging my memory about "people who need to be brought along gently".... I need to tell you this because I know there are many who have suffered badly and who have found themselves "gathered" here with the contributors, perhaps silent and unable even to find a voice yet. I hope this is useful.

Have you, in your born-again beautiful innocence, suffered an abuse against you which you felt could only be described as a kind of, I hesitate to use the expression, Spiritual rape? Have you then found yourself saddled with a burden of sorrow which would not go away?

This was something that happened to me, but I can tell you now that God has a purpose in it which He will reveal to you, and when He does you will see how it fits into His perfect plan. Perhaps like me you have felt, or are even feeling now, that you are alone down the bottom of a dark pit, and there is no-one to comfort you, no- one who is willing really to dirty his knees to get down in there with you to help you out. Plenty of people passing by overhead "in the light", shouting down encouraging words, maybe even calling "I love you" nevertheless remaining up there, safe, aloof. Don't trouble yourself about them for now, but KNOW Jesus is in there with you, and He will never let you go.

If rape isn't bad enough, a "pregnancy" of sorrow following it certainly seems like the end of the road. In my case I did everything I could think of to get rid of it: I talked it through and through with everyone I could think of that might know what to do until I was sick of describing it; I drank a lot at one stage to try and forget it but nothing worked. Then one day when I was so heartily sick of it all God told me to "own it". This was a shock - own the sorrow. This was one thing I hadn't tried. I wasn't even sure I knew what it entailed fully but my heart said "yes" somehow and a little light of hope flickered alive.

The next phase was very clearly a period of waiting. Are you following the childbearing analogy, because that is what happened, I had to wait, and wait. Sometimes I almost forgot the sorrow was there and went about my normal life and ministry. Worship was returning. Joy was returning. Things were improving, but when I began to read the pages in Latter Rain I saw a new word - Travail. It seemed to come up a lot until I realised, uh-oh, this was next. I peeked to see if the sorrow was actually there still, and boy! there it was, as large as life.

In due course, in the fullness of time, travail began. This was not at all as I had expected: simple, tearful, dignified, almost wordless. Here I was still joined by this burden to that fellowship now firmly in the past, and the burden was on the move. While I could still pray as joined to them, I sang "Create in me a clean heart, oh Lord, and renew a right spirit within me". I brought each one before the Lord, and prayed.

Then, in my lap as it were, was the bundle, and I was nearly done. I knew it was called "sorrow" but I still asked the Lord what its name was, and what I was to do with it. Guess what, its name was "Godly Sorrow", and then I knew, in faith, I had to give it back to them, the best and most perfect thing I could ever want for them and for the Church to have, and that is where it belongs - Godly Sorrow in the Church.

For me, I am no longer in that fellowship to see what will happen: perhaps for you there will be a parenting job as you see the beginnings of Godly Sorrow grow and bear fruit. The Lord will bring you through. He has a perfect plan.

God bless,


Hi Everyone.

The question, Mary, is if I have experienced that spiritual "rape" Many times but it is the few times that it has hit me the hardest when it is from people I trust. Betrayal is another word for it, if it is the hurtfulness arising from that trust, it is the trust that had been betrayed. It also hurts when these evangelicals who think I am deceiving people come at me with hate mail.

All in all, we are to love each other and have patience and bear one another's burdens. Sometimes that betrayal is a sign that you should trust no one but Jesus, but then, He is the only One that could never betray our trust, He is faithful regardless. I will continue to put my trust in others, simply because we are a social animal and there is no mutual love without a sense of trusting each other.

Basically, these things are signs that something somewhere is wrong. Perhaps we should not trust in certain people but how can we know? Jesus will one day wipe our tears so instead of a pity party or feeling sorry for myself or use it as a sign of weakness to others or a desperate cry for help and compassion and love from other quarters, we must be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Easier said than done but His burden is light and He calls us to trust Him completely.

Support from this group is really super. I had two that had criticized me for being sad but what they said did not really matter because i know better. I also had dozens of letters telling me not to worry about those topica ads, because they were getting blessed by what I had been writing and it didn't matter. Do I worry too much? Suppose so, but I do have cause for concern. By the way, Adrienne Hawthorne's ministry is going to host our mailing list, she has list serve and web hosting at New Life Webs. Praises. Glory. Everything works for good to those who love the Lord.

Travail is something that must come. We must have that solemn assembly with prayer and fasting or it would not be prophesied. It cannot be faked, it is not something that is worked up, it does not belong to anyone except whom God has called it to. So when these betrayals happen, it may just be God preparing our hearts and there is a purpose for it, you are absolutely right. How long Lord, how long? Saint John wept because no one was worthy to open the seals and then the Lamb stood up. He had seven eyes and seven horns and represent us. Hear that? We may not be Jesus as the Head but we are His body and if we are reviled and looked down on, it only gives us an occasion to glorify God the more because we are worthy to endure these things. We are the golden vials and the odors are our prayers, especially when they are in travail for His Church.

No one is perfect so we should not expect them to be. I get that attitude also that I cannot sleep, it becomes traumatic, we want to be loved. Once betrayal is come to the fore, it is hard to trust where it came from. That is where healing comes in. Jesus is not finished with us yet. I need to "own it" and wait, even in my travail and sorrow for the church. I am only just learning.


Dear Jay and Mary,
This morning I received a note from a brother in the Lord, which included this prophetic word: "I am purifying my Bride through betrayal and that the mystery of death is in the God-head." I understood "experientially" the truth of this statement, as I believe many on this list do. I believe God IS allowing this work within the Body - for His Good Purposes, in rooting out of us 'self-love' -- that His Divine Agape might flow pure and unconstrained.

God's Agape is an "ever-flowing-outward" Love... a Love that is always "giving" always -- not giving in order to get. Our human love (Phileo) 'gives' in order 'to receive'... we 'love' with the motivation of 'being loved'. It is only through the greatest of betrayals (I believe) that human love is dealt the ultimate death blow -- that Agape might reign supreme.

Soren Kierkegaard's teachings on the "Works of Love" are a most wonderful "challenge" to us -- for he has put into uncompromising words, the Law of Love, which can never be accomplished with phileo. We must die to this self-seeking love that Agape might be made manifest in and through us. Betrayal is a purifying means -- and especially when seen in the Light of conformity to the Image of Christ.

I share this note from my brother, with the desire that it bring forth more understanding of "betrayal" from the Lord's Perspective... for how else do we think we are going to be conformed to the Image of Christ, if we are not conformed of the "Isaiah 53" suffering servant -- at least in some lesser way of sharing in His suffering of Betrayal?

Love, Linda

Hi Linda,

Interesting. I have found for some time now in our discussions on the list that once we start discussing a certain topic, we find others in the A/P community also discussing it. Of course, they didn't get it from us, they received it from the Lord at the same time as us. This type of witness is confirmation that the Lord is speaking to us corporately and bringing us to maturity through the apostles and prophets one step at at time. I have noticed many similar themes and topics that the Lord is bringing us through as time goes on to bring us into unity. I remember He was teaching me things when I was on my own without the fellowship that a group like this brings. I thought I was all alone in my thinking, they didn't teach me this at church or in Sunday School or any of the denominations that I had followed, even the charismatic ones. I got on the internet and started looking around and found that the Lord was teaching many others the same thing. Like Elijah, I felt alone, God had to remind me that there were others who had not bent the knee to Baal.


Praise the Lord for his joy comes in the morning when sorrow was last nights feelings for the true light now shines in the hearts of those who diligently seek his face with all his heart. And there is a family a remant of people who are diligently standing in faith for the weaker brethren. Though we have pain for a moment once the child is born all sorrow vanishes away for the joy of life swallows up the pain. It is true we must come to a place of being solemity there is a time for great joy. His joy swallows up the sorrows of yesterday and brings the hope of our future. May we all go through this pilgrimage with our eyes upon the abundant life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In his love,

The joy of the Lord

GOD knows your Destiny, In Him you are a New Creature, Worship Him In The SPIRIT and you will be Walking in your Call, your Call is an Investment by GOD into you, your Call has many branches like a tree and continually grows toward the Light, Worship is that Intimacy where we are getting to know GOD even as we are known

Your Destiny Unfolds, trials turn into Triumphs, sores become Rivers, doubt is washed away, fear becomes a stronghold for the LORD, you've lived with defeat long enough, now is the hour to Arise and Conquer like KING JESUS continually stomping satan's head until sin is no more, their is a struggle for your soul, take up arms and penetrate the kingdoms of darkness with the Sword of the SPIRIT, your Destiny is not your trial your trial is a choice your choices make the future the future rests solely in the Hand of the LORD committ yourself to Him and He will see you through your worst times, the Hand of the LORD Leads the way

GOD is Equipping us for our Destiny, we need people to show us the way, GOD's Church is a family unit, Destiny comes in 2 sizes Unity and Separation you don't know who you are until you have friends or you can't fit in, we need feedback while we're here that will implant an awareness of what we have to work with individually and collectively, no Church has the ability to determine a persons Destiny yet no person isn't sharpened unless there is a collective they can cooperate with, people's sense of Belonging guides them as does the sense of Destiny, one man entered into the Holiest Of All for the entire nation one man's fate was sealed on the Cross for the Belonging and Reconciliation of all mankind, Destiny is a Comforter like a friend, what makes you happy now may or may not make you happy in the long run, GOD is Equipping the Church so that it will have the Comforting Presence of JESUS and bring people into an Eternal Perspective, GOD is not finished yet

Destiny is always a serious matter to attend to, if we don't look to it long enough we fall and miss our mark, if we don't open our eyes to the possibilities we sell ourselves short and can never reclaim our greatest Destiny, Destiny comes in droves but there must be a waiting for it the rest of the time you must stay in the path till it comes to fruition, Destiny can unlock meaningful experiences and Empower us to change our lives, Destiny is never what you want it to be it's what you earn but in the Kingdom one has sown and the rest have reaped, Destiny is a given in the Kingdom unless you take it and run the wrong with it, Destiny is what makes you worthy when you allow it to take it's process

Prophet Daniel

Hi all,
Thanks everyone for tender responses. We know that the suffering that we are discussing here produces in us a series of changes which conform us to His likeness, and that it is an ongoing process because, praise the Lord, we are saved, and the Word is full of comfort for us in this respect. But I noticed that this comfort was a very private thing, a solitary experience, because no-one seemed to be undergoing the same process, so that actual help was hard to find. It makes it hard to deal with the hurting, because, well, it still hurts, whether it is suffering for righteousness sake or not. My son accidently hit me on the nose with a spanner once, and got upset because "sorry" didn't make the blood stop or ease the pain; he was powerless to help.

Probably there are all sorts of things that come under the heading of hurting, and some of them aren't so Spiritual. I know I didn't like it at all when my reputation was destroyed by a lying tongue in a lofty place. I didn't like people believing ill of me, when I was certain I had done my best. But in the end, that doesn't matter either because God alone knows your motivation, and if it is pure there are many compensations. Let them play the "I can discern an evil spirit" game and leave me out of it. Wisdom is justified of her children.

Recently, (and I thought the troubles were over!) I was working with someone who had been years in a nominal Christianity and under an opressive rule in a fellowship, and he suddenly got a hold on God and ran as fast as he could in a full new ministry, newly baptised in the Holy Spirit. It was such a delight to see, and my hopes began to soar as I saw all sorts of new Spiritual possibilities. Then, just as suddenly, doors were slammed in my face as his christian mother believed she had discerned that my interests in him were carnal. The Lord told me firmly that this uncomfortable experience was a question of "pruning", that past suffering wasn't a one-off, but niether, praise God, was past fruit.

We are in this together and somehow have to show the world our love for each other. John 13:35 - "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." The two men in my life (my husband and son) need to see this and get saved. Tricky after seeing my bad experiences, but NOT IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD! Any thoughts how we can do this over the internet?

Holy kisses,


Hi Mary,

The process you are describing is one of those that is shared among different religious faiths and spiritual teachings. It is known as the "Dark Night of the Soul," and is fully described by Saint John of the Cross.

Jay F.

(Text at the Yahoo forum at

Own the sorrow... Then one day when I was so heartily sick of it all God told me to "own it". This was a shock - own the sorrow. This was one thing I hadn't tried. I wasn't even sure I knew what it entailed fully but my heart said "yes" somehow and a little light of hope flickered alive.

I understand Mary :) The Lord asked me, 'Why are you fighting Me on this? You never fight against Me.'

Whoa... I had to quickly repent: 'You mean Lord, YOU are in this sorrow?' He said 'Yes..'

Before that day, I had never really understood that "sorrow" had a Divine Purpose in our ongoing soteria -- the unfolding, transforming work of salvation. I discovered though as soon as I stopped fighting against the sorrow [or as you were told, 'to own the sorrow' ] -- the intensity of the sorrow began to decrease. I then could look upon sorrow/suffering in the context of the Scriptures where Paul speaks about rejoicing now in his suffering... knowing or having learned that he was filling up that which "is behind of the afflictions of Christ, in my flesh, for His body's sake -- which is the Church" (Col 1:24)

When we have experienced a spiritual abuse at the hands of (religious) man -- we are being conformed to the Image of Christ -- for Jesus suffered these same persecutions and injustices at the hands of the religious.

I will share a poem by Amy Carmichael which expresses this truth of the relationship between the Master and His 'being conformed to His Image', disciples... Maybe this will touch your heart as it did mine.

Love, Linda

<>---HAST THOU NO SCAR?---<>

Hast thou no scar?
No hidden scar on foot or side or hand?
I hear thee sung as 'mighty in the land.'
I hear them hail 'thy bright ascendant star'.
Hast thou no scar? Hast thou no wound?
Yet I was wounded by the archers, spent...
leaned Me against a tree to die and rent
by ravening beasts that compassed Me. I swooned.

Hast thou no wound? No wound? No scar?
Yet as 'the Master' - shall 'the servant' be,
and pierced are the feet that follow Me.
But thine are whole.....?
Can he have followed far, who has no wound or scar?"

- Amy Carmichael (1867-1951)

Trials Turn to Gold.
Amy Carmichael was a missionary, who at the turn of the 1900's, devoted much of her life to rescuing young girls dedicated to a life of prostitution and slavery in Indian Hindu Temples. One day, she took some of her children to see a goldsmith refining gold in the ancient manner of the Orient.

The old goldsmith sat beside a small charcoal fire. On top of the coals, lay a common red curved roof-tile, and another tile over it like a lid. This was his homemade crucible. The man had a mixture of salt, tamarind fruit, and burnt brick dust which he called his "medicine" for purifying of the gold. He dropped a lump of ore into the blistering mixture and let the fire "eat" it. After a while, the man lifted the gold out with a pair of tongs, let it cool, and studied it.

Then he replaced the gold in the crucible and blew the fire hotter than it was before. This process went on and on, the fire growing hotter and hotter. "The gold could not bear it so hot at first," explained the goldsmith. "but it can bear it now. What would have destroyed it, has helped it."

As the children watched with amazement as the gold was purified in the fire. One of the girls asked the man, "How do you know when the gold is purified?"

The old man answered, "When I can see my face in it [the liquid gold in the crucible], then it is purified."


Hi Jay et al from Jay,

I have heard of St. John of the Cross but had not read him, I have now, thanks. I am putting together a CD of Study programs and Christian Classics in which, this will be included. Also John's titles "Ascent of Mount Carmel" and "A Spiritual Canticle of the Soul and the Bridegroom Christ." Good stuff.

Jay A.

Hi Jay F.

Thank you for taking such a lot of trouble to send that last letter. I am getting to know you a bit and I think you are brave the way you address the less palatable truths that exist. Like you I cannot have a partial picture: truth is truth, and some bits are nasty - no point in pretending they are otherwise.

What you enclose about the "dark night of the soul" is a very full and honest description of a process that I am acquainted with, though I would hesitate to place the label "enlightenment" on it, which throws up a false trail very attractive to the ego. There is certainly a peace which comes from finding you are helpless, powerless, useless and lacking any goodness, and it is a tremendous relief to finally give up on ourselves. But my experience is that it is a partial peace, and that far from this being an end point in a process, it is the start of something, and the something is really so much more than any of us could imagine.

If you will permit me, I have a picture in my mind and it is you at the door of a very stout strong cupboard, which has a label on it "TRUTH". Inside are rows of shelves with boxes on all labelled clearly for all to see. Often you invite people in to see the contents and examine the shelves full of the fruits of your labour, the things you have found to be true. You add to it frequently as you continue to study. The cupboard represents the "whole truth". I'll come back to this in a minute.

During my "dark night", when everything that I valued seemed to be stripped away, I became aware of God in a very different way. Things happened that could not be explained by any natural means. Expressions of God's love, in the person of Jesus, came as often as I breathed out my desire to hear from Him, and I was comforted. I was alone without any teacher except my Jesus, but as if in a new language, the language of suffering, He communicated with me everything I needed to know. Somehow, with everything stripped away, this just amounted to my needing to know that He loved me. Sometimes I would cry out a need in a hopelessly inaccurate series of words, and He would supply in abundance, meeting even those needs I was unable to express. I could not have known Jesus in this way without having picked up the jewel of His love by faith all those years ago.

Permit me again to go back to that cupboard with you. I want to hold your hand in there, there is something in there you haven't seen. It is very small and a little dirty, round about the floor somewhere. We will have to get down there to look. It is that jewel, and it is God's love for you personally, Jay, in Jesus. It is not for everyone to pick up, only if you are brave enough to address the uncomfortable truth. Our sin, our need, God will meet us here. We will have a prayer together.

"Lord, you are beautiful. Thank you for Jay Fenello, for his honesty and his heart which seeks after the truth. Thank you Lord that you provided a way for us to know you even though we fail you so much. Fill Jay with the light of your truth, and save him. Fill him with the experience of your love in your full forgiveness forever, expressed in Jesus' death for him on the cross. In Jesus' name,


Much love from Mary xx

I have talked with many that are committed believers with the fulness of the Holy Spirit. One thing I find in common is the reverence for scripture. We believe in the inspiration and what I have found in those that do not is an absence of the fulness of the spirit. That is not a statement of criticism or a judgmental remark, just an observance. Faith in God according to the fulness will reveal His word as true and He is powerful enough to protect it from corruption.

The real thing that overcomes any doubts we have in the Bible is love. I mean the type of love that accepts others no matter how we feel about the Bible. I have worked with many that have a real concern for the poor and know nothing about the Bible. Would I rather work with them than one who uses the bible as a club to condemn our brothers and sisters according to the letter? Of course. It is much better to live out the scriptures and know nothing than to know it all and do nothing but spout scripture and dogma. This is one of the many paths that I mentioned that can lead to the true path. The paths that i do not want to be on are the ones that have these road signs as the one true path and follow me to the right path and don't go there, go here.


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