From Teaching to Evangelism

July 11, 2000

This forum that we have put together has done much in the area of teaching. The responses this time concerning teachers especially point to what we are doing here. I am called to teach, at least that is what you think. Well Praise the Lord, I have asked Him to do that for me. Why not praise Him? But how about all of you? I praise you as well.

This list is growing every day, over 300 now. Not a mega list by any means but not too shabby for a discussion list that has only been around this year. Most on the list never respond but many of you do. The ones that do not are perfectly content with soaking in what is going on. The list grows and not that many ask to be taken off. Why? We are all getting fed. There is some good teaching going on here. I do not have any delusions that everyone is reading all of the posts and taking everything in but people e-mail me all the time and tell me that they are being blessed by my site. Much of the credit now goes to you all. I did not want to be the only voice and God is allowing others to help with the teaching. This is the putting our heads together that I had wanted to be able to come to agreement. This may not mean as much to you as it does to me but there are so many that are getting this great stuff off of my site now that I can really see what is going on. Now that everything is being archived and the search engines spider my site (I am very effective at promotion), this list is starting to get some real good exposure. And it is all a matter of permanent record now. There will be many more that will see what is going on here and coming by again and again and taking a look. And getting blessed. You are giving them some real good teaching.

Look at all of the wonderful teaching that we had in the Babylon discussions and the rapture question. Ginny with all her wonderful remarks and Gary Patterson with apostles and Dean Furlong and Karen with all their wonderful comments and Bordtodis with so much of his wisdom. And look at the five-fold discussion and what Stephen Hanson brought forth concerning prophecy and Gary with apostles, Brother Alan with the laying on of hands, Angela alerting us to the truth about the WTO, Gil and a couple of Jims and a couple of Brians, Don, James, Kathleen and Cathy, Paul and Larry, Leander, Ivan and the Silver Paladin, better stop now, I could go on and on, I will not list all of you, there were many many more and you are all there for the whole world to see. Each bringing forth their special area of gifted teaching. The point I am making is that this has really been great teaching. The Lord is indeed speaking through this group and my wildest aspirations for the success of this forum has been realized. Again, praise the Lord.

For those of you that have been around these discussions for a while, you know that you have changed my mind on several points that I had been assertive about before and had to turn around my way of thinking. With a site as big as mine is, when I change my mind on something, it affects all kind of areas. I quickly must go around and update those things that had not been as perfect as before. You have had a profound affect on this ministry and me. This is from putting our heads together in the spirit. There is still much work to do but there is spiritual power in coming together in the love and humility that this group has brought forth and this is bigger than just my site. It is the image of what God is doing around the world in bringing like-minded people in the spirit together. Realize also that this teaching is having an impact, people have told me that. We have not all agreed upon everything except that we should love each other. That is what will bring forth the manifest sons, this is what this discussion is about. We have had our teachers and pastors and the rest all along, but the man-child has been birthed and this is a new thing. Make no mistake about it, it is happening all over the world. There may be groups and individuals that think that they are fulfilling these things by themselves and want to take the credit alone, but if it is not according to the love and humility and desire to come together and putting aside the divisions of the past, then it is just more pride talking, not the spirit of Jesus. They appeal to the flesh to draw others to themselves.

Evangelism is next. I am criticized all too often of not being evangelistic enough on my site. It has never been my intention to make new Christians but rather to make Christians better. If we do what we can to make those in the church more mature, more committed to walking in the spirit and more in one accord, then evangelism will follow. Those that are brought to the Lord will be better and not be making the same mistakes that have plagued the church in the past. Evangelism is our first concern in the world and that is to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost. We are to prepare ourselves to be worthy to meet Jesus when He comes for His Bride, then we will be able to lift Him up and draw all men unto Him. We preach Christ and Him crucified but He preached that we should crucify ourselves and take up His cross. We have not the right to bring anyone to Jesus if we are not willing to come to Him ourselves completely, as the holy and sanctified vessels that He wants us to be.

Now, the final topic in our discussion on the five-fold - the evangelists. For myself, I do not think that I have the gift. I mean, I can share the Lord with others and I have brought others to a saving knowledge of Christ but as far as the gift, like the gift of prophecy or apostleship, I do not have the gift of evangelism. Maybe I do and don't know it. I do know that there will be a time in the future where I will not just be writing but be speaking to groups and laying hands on them and doing healing and all that. Up to now, it has mainly been a ministry to believers, the gift of evangelism is to non-believers and getting them saved.

Anyway what are some of your ideas and thoughts on the subject? I was confirmed with the gift of prophecy when I was witnessing to a brother. I suppose that is evangelizing, it should be in the spirit, but a gifting? What do you think?

Pray for this man below that may be executed tomorrow for being a Christian. There is a field for evangelism, the Muslims, if we can ever come to the point of loving them. The responses here start with a life and death prayer request and ends down below with the fact of thousands being killed in this way in Muslim countries. A Holy war against God's people? Delusion for sure.


Life and Death Prayer Request
Christian Persecution in Yemen

Original Message
From: Julian Marsh
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2000
Subject: Urgent Request for prayer

Steve Maguire of the Bradford-upon-Avon Christian Fellowship has asked me to pass on this urgent request to as many people as possible :

His church has been made aware that there is an urgent prayer need. George Haji, who is based in Aden, in the Yemen has been sentenced to death and is due to be executed next Wednesday for being a Christian. No crime is involved. It is not possible to give any more details on grounds of confidentiality. Can we take hold of this please and pray? Could you e-mail people on your address books in order to make the need to overturn this dreadful threatened action as high profile as possible? I understand that Baroness Chalker has been made aware of the need within the last two hours.

Every blessing
Julian Marsh

Jay, Thanks for this, it seems you definitely have a gift of teaching, otherwise you wouldn't have the website you do! St. Francis said "Preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary use words." Of course, words are the cups that carry the water of life, but I can definitely understand why he said that. Or, to use the symphony illustration, the individual instruments making up the whole sound. Words without love are like sounding brass, tinkling cymbals, just a whole lot of noise without "melody"....which is to sum up your last writing in a little "picture" for those who are more visual learners. Words without meaning don't make any sense at all to those who hear them, any more than most Americans understand Greek.

Teaching is a wonderful gift, such a precious privilege for both those who are learning and those who are teaching, because it is how we "grow" and how we bear "fruit"....seed bearing fruit bearing seed ..... and only those who "know" can teach those who "don't". I believe the word ignorance is rooted in the verb "to ignore" and not a case of the "lack of knowledge"...there are those who "don't know" because nobody has ever taught them. There are "fools" who say in their heart "there is no God" because they choose to ignore the truth. So, in essence, we are all teachers to an extent if we know the truth of God and we KNOW GOD, we are in the earth to teach others that truth, to MAKE HIM KNOWN in all the earth. In simple ways we often teach more than those who possess great and lofty "gifts", I guess it all comes down to faith in the end and what we truly believe. If we do believe what we profess, then we will live it out every day and the world around us will "see" God by watching us. Just like we "see" God by watching Jesus, because that's what it means to "teach" others. The Holy Spirit that dwells in us is the SAME HOLY SPIRIT that raised Jesus from the dead. He gives us the power not only to "tell" them, but also demonstrate to them, SHOW them, what is known to us, which is the LORD HIMSELF. There is a big, big difference between knowing about somebody and knowing that person, especially knowing them intimately. If you belong to Jesus, you can't be deceived, it isn't possible, read His own words. "If it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived" but the GOOD NEWS is IT ISN'T POSSIBLE to deceive anyone who KNOWS THE LORD IN TRUTH. If you know what is real, then it is obvious what isn't. That's why He calls His people sheep instead of goats. Goats will go their own way, sheep are helplessly dependent on their shepherd to lead them. We WON'T follow another VOICE because we KNOW our Shepherd's VOICE. I think we can trust Him with all of our hearts, we can believe Him and know He will keep HIS promises to us. Years ago, the nearly ninety year old missionary who SHOWED me JESUS when I was still wandering around in the darkness of my own mind and ways, the one who led me back all the way to HIM, and loved me into the Kingdom of God, told me I could rest assured that HE IS ABLE to KEEP ME. As he said, He purchased me with His own blood, and that was not a cheap price to pay for my soul. I am precious to HIM, HIS OWN, and HE is keeping my soul, protecting me from enemies and feeding me, leading me, making me lie down in green pastures, leading me beside still waters. THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD....if we KNOW HIS VOICE, we will follow HIM closely and we will be safe. He will keep us from falling, He will lead us safely ALL THE WAY HOME, through the fire, through the storms, we need only to STAY CLOSE TO HIM and to listen always for HIS VOICE. Jesus will never leave us of forsake us, not those who belong to HIM, that is HIS PROMISE....and, this I have learned. HE IS THE PROMISE KEEPER!!!! My God don't tell no LIES!!!! Hold on brothers and sisters, there are watchmen shouting! The ship has come finally into sight and we only need to be here watching and waiting when it arrives to take us into GLORY LAND....if you are praying, you will KNOW when the CAPTAIN calls, if you are gambling and playing, well, you most likely will miss the boat. I think it's YOUR call, and if you love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF (which is the only evidence that you love the LORD at all, YOU WILL KNOW AND YOU WILL HEAR AND SEE THE LORD, IN ALL HIS GLORY, AND DWELL WITH HIM FOREVER. HIS PROMISE. YOU CAN BELIEVE IT. YOU CAN TRUST IN THAT WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND KNOW, WITHOUT A DOUBT!!! karen


Just a few short words.It is very evident that the Lord is speaking through his people here.We are all being taught what he would have us to know.I get a charge hearing from you and others on this site. It is an absolute great teaching tool.


Jay, this first paragraph that you wrote is simply lovely. God bless you, man. I have no comments to add. I quite enjoyed the read.


Jay, It looks as though it may be time to talk about teachers.

When I visited Indonesia in 1963, some of the church leaders there told me that they often had young people who got on fire for the Lord. But then they got sent to seminary or Bible school where they got their heads filled with knowledge, but their zeal cooled off. How could we start a training program that would keep them fired up? I checked out a large number of programs in this country and discovered that the ones that were keeping people on fire, started, not with buildings, faculty, and curriculum, but with a vision from the Lord, followed by a lot of frustrating experiences and finally a powerful move of the Lord.

In 1965, my family and I moved to Indonesia, started learning the language, avoided getting killed by the communists, and prayed a lot. After a few months, the Lord gathered a small group of young nationals that wanted to join us for prayer. We met each evening for prayer and worship. Soon we began to get called to houses where someone was sick or demon possessed or in other kinds of need. The Lord started doing miracles. After a while, we began to get invitations to churches around Java and sometimes on other islands. We were in our training program. For several years, we were just a little group who traveled around and saw what the Lord was doing. He was teaching us His ways of doing evangelism and ministry. He worked out of us all of the usual concepts of training and imposed His methods on us. Most of this time, we lived in a little village high in the mountains of East Java. in 1970, we moved down the mountain to a small city, and acquired a large house in which to start a somewhat larger training program. In town, there were 14 churches, but out of town a couple of kilometers was a whole mountain area with thousands of people who had never heard the name of Jesus.

Shortly after we moved there, some of the young disciples saw the field in front of our house filled with people and some of their buddies standing on a platform preaching. They saw great numbers of people being healed. They fasted a prayed for over a month. The campaign took place as seen in the vision. The young people, many of whom were new converts and untrained did the preaching and ministry under powerful anointing of the Holy Spirit. Over 900 people were healed of blindness, deafness, paralysis, demon possession, and many other diseases. The villages round about knew the name of Jesus and they knew His power. Our young disciples started spending much of their time in the villages teaching the new converts to pray, read their Bibles, face persecution, and reach out to their neighbors with the Gospel. They returned to our house for sharing of experiences, confirmation of the lessons the Lord was teaching them, and mutual encouragement. We were learning that the Lord tends to do things first and then talk about them. We were learning the Lord's method of training disciples.

Jesus' method of teaching

Jesus never built a building or held a class. He did on-the-job training. He gathered a little group of young men and a few women around Him and started to walk. They saw the miracles He did, the people getting healed, the demon possessed delivered, the dead raised, the Pharisees confronted, the Gospel proclaimed in very strange ways. When there was time, they sat down someplace and discussed what they had seen. After a few weeks, Jesus sent them out on their own to put into practice what they had learned from watching Him. He gave them a few brief instructions--heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, preach the Kingdom, don't take along any provisions, etc. They came back after a short period of time with amazing stories. "Wow, it works! Even the demons obey us in Your Name!"

The disciples did not take notes on the definition of love. They learned love from their daily association with Jesus. They learned holiness from observing Jesus' lifestyle, and through His gentle and frequent reminders. They learned how to do all kinds of ministry by observing Jesus' methods and by practicing it themselves.

He also taught them faith through things they had to face. They got their first real clue as to Who Jesus is at the marriage in Cana. When they saw the water turned into wine, they "believed in Him." A bit later, they got a more profound lesson in faith when Jesus got them out on the lake and went to sleep in the back of the boat as a storm was coming up. He showed them how to deal with that kind of situation and He chided them a bit about their lack of faith. A bit later, He stepped up this teaching one degree, by not even being in the boat when the storm came. He then came to rescue them walking on the water. Other lessons in faith occurred when they were asked to feed great multitudes on the mountain sides.

The disciples eventually had too learn horrendous lessons about persecution, suffering, and death as they followed Him through the process leading up to His crucifixion.

Their training was always non-formal and practical. It was on-the-job training or by discussion, and in fellowship. The training and the personal contact with Jesus were all part of the same thing.

Ordinary teachers show up to give lectures and to give assignments or test. Then, they go home. The students do not necessarily know about their lifestyle. Jesus humbled Himself to eat and sleep and walk the dusty roads with them, day in and day out.

Jesus basically taught us by the same method. We went where He led us, observed His miracles, experienced His love and His correction. We let Him speak through all the gifts of the Spirit. We faced adequate danger and persecution. I sort of graduated along with the first wave of students and spent the rest of my time smiling pleasantly and being available as needed. We indigenized the work in 1977 and it has spread all over the country. Now almost all of our graduates have similar training programs all over the country. The churches that opposed us when we started have begun to follow many of our principals and the whole spiritual climate has been changed. Now, as you probably know, persecution is coming from the radical Moslem element who are killing off Christians by the thousands and burning churches by the hundreds. The Christians are standing firm, learning how best to face persecution. They continue to grow in numbers as well as in spiritual depth.

I am travelling in Montana at this time, visiting descendents. I will have more to say about teachers when I get home.
In Him, Edwin Stube

In my opinion, at this point and time we live in, we need far more teaching in the church and allowing people to ask questions right then and there as to what the pastor is saying if we have questions or comments. So many of us feel muzzled in church and walk out each Sunday with questions they might get an answer to on bible study night or the question goes unanswered and we stay in the same mind set until we get upset and forget it and turn to the world for answers. If pastors would stop trying to on God's people and tell them when he feels they should do this or that and recognize that the harvest is now, and he who is wise, wins souls instead of only people with titles in the church, (with pastors permission) then maybe souls can be encouraged and more souls saved. Churches today are too worried about the building fund, getting new robes, and draining your pockets of money that they have lost focus.


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