The Role of the Pastor

June 23, 2000

The Living Stones of David

Remember the story of David and Goliath? Ever since you were a child.

David picked up five stones from the brook. He only needed one. The unity of the Five-Fold Ministry of Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists and Apostles are in the arsenal of the Lord as the five stones of young David. The Giant Killers of this unity are about to rise up to do battle with the strongholds of satan.

The Philistines have already gathered their armies, they have prepared their mighty men of war to come against the Lord's anointed. Why do they imagine such a vain thing? Pride, control, fleshly leadership, their authority is being threatened by upstart nobodies being prepared for revival and they are unable to throw their crowns at the feet of Jesus without a fight.

The Philistines had a champion named Goliath. All decked out with his helmet of brass and armor so great, this giant needed another to bear his shield. Goliath called out to the whole camp of Israel "Why are you dressed in battle array? Choose a man among you and let him come down to me."

Our man is Jesus and we are His army.

David, the son of Jesse was a pastor feeding his sheep. The war has already begun as this child is called to the trenches to feed his brethren. All Israel feared this Giant but not so this lad after God's own heart, he went to the King - "Let no man's heart fail because of him, your servant will go and fight this Philistine."

A helmet of brass was given David and metal armor and a great sword. It was not needed then and it is not needed now. All David needed was the staff of a shepherd and a slingshot. We already have the armor of God, the helmet of salvation and the breastplate of righteousness. Our feet have been prepared with the gospel of peace and our loins gird about with truth. With the sword of the spirit and the shield of faith, we do battle with the giants of the adversary, not the army of the Philistines. We need not stain our swords with flesh and blood because we have the power and authority of the Holy Spirit to bring down these strongholds in the heavenlies and cast out the powers of darkness.

With the staff in his hand, David went to the brook and took five smooth stones. We as precious living stones have been to the waters of eternal life and even now are being prepared for the victory to come.

Not by power, not by might but by My Spirit saith the Lord. Judgment is Mine. You are about to do battle with your minds, with your hearts and with your spirits, not with swords and spears and armor of iron but of My love. The prayer of faith is rising up with one voice unto Me to empower you and send you into battle and My army is being lifted up into the heavenlies. Arise, My people and shine, for your deliverance is near. I AM smoothing out the stones of My manifest sons.

One shot in the head - one stone and the mighty Giant falls. Not so difficult. Goliath had his armor and a great sword but he was vulnerable at the point of our strength; we have the Seal of God in our forehead to protect us. Just like David, we desire to rebuild the temple for the Lord to dwell in but we will be allowed, for we are not warriors of the flesh but of the spirit. We are the army of the restitution of all things, to build up Israel even as an army of infidels seeks to tear us down.

The champion of the Philistines lost his head. How? His own sword was used against him and the Philistines were routed. The edges of our swords are truth in love that divides soul and spirit for the lost, not to rise up against our brothers and sisters that come out to fight against us but to pray for them and get on with kingdom business. Our King has already won the war for us, we only need to gather in the spoils. Hallelujah. The Lord inhabits the praises of His people; we exalt your name, Jesus. Sanctify us and fill us with your spirit.


Our discussion last month started with the question of the manifest sons of God and has been on the five-fold. We first covered the role of apostles and whether apostles are in the position of governing the rest of the five-fold. The discussion led us to re-discussiong leadership and authority and through a direct confrontation with the issue, we are now saying the same thing. Leadership and authority in the body is derived from the Lord, not assumed. There is no true leadership outside of a direct anointing and leading of the Holy Spirit. It is shared leadership and our authority is confined to our own ministry giftings and Christian service and is not to be usurped by another or used to lord it over others. We are all to submit to one another in the Lord and no gift is higher than another.

We have also discussed prophecy as a second five-fold ministry and had some good teaching on it. Prophecy is clearly cut and dry for us. Prophecy is desirable for the whole body and is simply allowing God to speak through you. The prophets are subject to the spirit of prophecy and is a charismatic gift that needs the fullness of the Holy Spirit to be used in power. We all except the gift as valid and do not despise prophetic utterances.

There is clear direction from the Lord in a true prophet but it can lead to pride. Many young prophets who have not learned the self-control necessary to be effective will think that the Lord is giving revelation and speaking through them all the time, so when they make mistakes, they fall into delusion and except the falseness as from the Lord. This leads to neurosis, religiosity, learning disabilities, self-importance, grandiosity of the message, recklessness, bad habits, false assumptions, speaking in the flesh, false thinking and in the worst cases, schizophrenia. Just because we have heard from the mature prophets in the list as well as the immature, it does not lessen God's love for all of us and the best groups seek to lift each other up and bear each other's burdens. We are all in the process of maturing.

We will now jump right in the office of pastors.

We can bring up anything you want about the role of pastors. One thing that I must bring up is the problem that many pastors have with the prophetic. Pastors have had songs sung to them for so long in the past that it is hard for them to accept direction through those between the porch and the altar. All those in spiritual authority during the first sounding of the trumpets must lay down their crowns or lose what they have. From what I see, this is happening right now and the Lord is speaking to many pastors and giving them the choices that they must face to be obedient to the unity of the spirit. Many will not submit.

It is an open discussion on the calling of pastors. Anything that you would like to contribute to the discussion is fine. If you are a pastor, share with us. We may also hear some stories of the pastors that you all have dealt with in the past. Good examples, bad examples or whatever. Jay

Prophetic Equilibrium
By Debra Westbrook
June 21, 2000

When there is an imbalance in the inner ear due to infection, the whole body loses its balance or its state of equilibrium. As it is in the natural, there is an important spiritual message to be grasped here that God is speaking to His prophetic community in this season. We must come into balance by helping the Body of Christ maintain their equilibrium in Him. Our inner ear must be attuned to the still small voice of the Lord. Throughout the Gospels, it is said that Jesus often withdrew to solitary, lonely places to pray and hear what His Father was speaking. So must we.

There appears at times to be a frenzy these days for a "cutting edge" prophetic word, yet many of these words have proceeded out before their time. It is as if they reached the "outer ear" of the prophets and immediately, there is a tendency to "run with it" rather than letting it be meditated upon in the secret place so that the Father can bring further revelation to what He has spoken. Many times what we hear initially will be enlarged and further revealed as we wait upon the Lord.

There appears to be an analogy with the prophet Elijah in 1 Kings 19 as he stands upon the mountain. As the manifestations that were outwardly apparent presented themselves in the form of the wind, the earthquake, and the fire, God stated that He was not in any of them. Yet, God then spoke in His still small voice. Once again, God is wanting His prophets to forsake the clamor that reaches the outer ear, so to speak, and to be still so that we can hear Him in the inner ear which is analogous to the place of sensitivity to His still small voice.

Could it be that in our frenzy of passionate pursuit of the Lord and to seek what He is saying today that we have settled upon bringing forth that which is good rather than wait for that which is excellent? There is a time to speak and a time to be silent. Those called with a forerunner spirit must maintain an inner equilibrium of balance in God that comes when we listen to His still small voice. It is in these quiet places that all over this world right now, God is maturing and refining His prophetic people to rise up in unity with one voice in His time to proclaim His heart for this generation. The Lord would caution us today to not be quick to speak but to allow time to meditate and ponder as Mary did when presented with the divine revelation of the future Messiah that would be birthed through her womb. So it is with us today. God is wanting to bring forth a greater revelation of Jesus Christ to this world but we must be still and listen as this word grows within our beings.

Do not run with the word when it is immediately given to us, but allow that word to expand within you to bring forth a greater revelation of the Son. God is never in a hurry and there is always a divine "kairos" moment for birth to come forth. His timing is impeccable. Isaiah 40:31 tells us: "...they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

Let us wait for God's proper timing to soar once again. May we heed the call to retreat into the secret places of the Most High. We will then come forth with a greater prophetic accuracy in His timing! This accuracy will bring forth words of boldness and power that will resound with one voice of unity that will shake this nation and this world with the reality of the Kingdom of God in our midst. Be still and know that He is God.

It is a time to re-access our calling, reevaluate our position, and realign ourselves under the hand of God.

In Christ
Debra Westbrook

Jay, Unfortunately, I have been too busy recently to get around to writing down everything on my mind until now. This really concerns the last topic, that of my personal experiences. Certainly one of the ways in which we are to tell a true prophet from a false prophet is whether they keep to their proper place within God's plan. The prophets of the Old Testament would speak to the people and to the king, but would never lead. Even when the king was thoroughly corrupt, a prophet was never allowed to usurp his position. It seems that a prophet is to speak but not exercise authority directly. If this is true then the issue of women as prophets should be clear as the office of prophet would not necessarily involve exercising authority over men anyway. I am not very experienced or knowledgeable in these matters, so I could be totally wrong. Problematic cases would be Abraham, Moses, Deborah, and Samuel, all of whom were leaders as well as prophets. Of course, they also lived in the time before the Israelite monarchy, and Samuel handed over his role as a leader after anointing Saul, making himself a more conventional prophet. In any case, it seems that prophets are not meant to work alone, and any prophet who tries to give authority to himself is under suspicion.

As for my own experience, I can think of several occasions when I believe the Lord has sent me a dream, two of which I am quite certain of. Until recently I believed that the idea of dreams having any significance was a pagan one, so I am still not completely sure how to tell when God has sent a dream. In the cases I mention, I can usually tell because I can feel the Lord's presence in the dream in the same way as when I am in prayer. What strikes me most when the Lord sends me a dream is that it is focused on Him rather than me. Because my mind was set on the flesh for so many years before the Lord called me, hardly any of my natural dreams are positive or edifying. Another thing I have noticed is that most of the dreams I have had point me to the message the Lord is giving me rather than giving the message directly. In one case, the instruction was simply to go to the, "church on 26th street." One other dream was meant for confirmation of a prophecy that a friend received a couple months later. These instances are rare, and it seems that usually I receive instruction when reading the Word. The truth is that studying the Bible correctly requires the moving of the Spirit every bit as much as seeing a vision. In the church I attend, when we share with the congregation any word or revelation that the Lord has given us, it is referred to as prophesying. I gather that this is not nearly as specific as the definition used in the five-fold ministry, but I believe that it captures what it means to prophesy - to relay a message from God to others.

For all fellow slaves and sons of the Most High

Hi Jay,

To God be the glory,always and forever. Prophecy,can be a wonderful,thing when given from God to man,to reveal that which will come to pass.On the other hand,the arch-deceiver deludes men into thinking that they have heard from God himself,when they have not,causing those that hear them to err,and stumble,the prophecy ,must always line up with the Word of God.Some to this day,do not realize,how dangerous,a thing it is to call oneself,a prophet,for in the book, of Jeremiah 23:21.Ihave not sent these prophets,yet they ran:I have not spoken to them,yet they prophesied.Verse 25, says,I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name,in my name, saying i have dreamed,i have dreamed.Verse 28 The prophet that hath a dream,let him tell a dream:and he that hath my word,let him speak my word faithfully.What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.29.Is not my word like as a fire?saith the Lord:and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?The prophetic word,from the Lord burns in the heart,of the one whom God has called to speak his words,so that it becomes as what Jeremiah said,when he said,that he was not going to make mention of the Lord,Jer.20:9 Then i said, I will not make mention of him,nor speak any more in his name.But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones,and i was weary with forbearing,and i could not stay.

Peter,spoke about having a more sure word of prophecy,that brings a light that shineth in a dark place.When the word of the Lord,is spoken,as it should be spoken, devils tremble,people are delivered,healed,joy,breaks out,the true love,of God becomes very evident, leaving no place at all for the enemy,he has to flee,people give glory to God,and none of this is done,through emotions, or feelings,not by might,not by power,but by my Spirit,saith the Lord.I would like to share this with the group,at the risk of being ridiculed,but nevertheless,i will speak what happened,if somone told me that,they had a vision,i would be skeptical, until,i fully heard it,and understood it,to where it lined up scripturally.Some years back,while i was in my home,i absolutely, love to study bible prophecy,understand that at no time am i tooting my own horn.

I was in deep meditation,in the Lord,when just above my head,yet right before my eyes,i saw a great plane,will explain this later.Also i saw,people walking across this plane,the plane had an end to it,and when the people,got to the edge of it they,fell over the edge.I saw underneath the plane and there was absolute,darkness,totally black.A large mouth appeared,with teeth, which was chewing these people up,as they fell over the edge,this seemed to be a 24 hour process,also briefly,two sinister looking eyes appeared.I was stunned, and i had no idea,of what it could have meant. Without understanding what i had just saw, there definitely was not any way that i could tell anyone.At first i tried to use my own intellect and understanding,to figure this thing out,i would say Lord,show me what this means,but yet still,i was trying to still use my own understanding.I finally,allowed the Lord,to have it,and he began,to show me what,it meant,in increments.At no time do i say that i have full understanding,of it,but here is what i have been given concerning,what i saw.

As these people walked across this plane,there was a voice,speaking,and this voice was saying,to them,(get that house,get that car,whatever, it is that you can get,get it while you can.)The people seemed to be in a trance,with blinders on, and were completely,oblivious,to what they were,headed toward.This plane, which people were walking across, symbolized,a person's lifetime,they had a choice,of what voice,they chose to listen to,i was led to this passage,in Isaiah 5:13.Therefore my people are gone into captivity,because they have no knowledge and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.14.Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,and opened her mouth without measure:and their glory,and their multitude and their pomp,and he that rejoiceth,shall descend into it.

But yet, there's hope,listen to what Jude,says, in verse 24,Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.Brothers and sisters, please let me tell you that,let no one tell you that it does not make any difference, who you listen to these days,know the voice of God,for yourselves,for we are all accountable.Day,by day,we are steadily being bombarded,with the wiles,of the devil,who craftily,tries to disguise his voice as the voice of God,this voice which told those who were headed,toward the edge of the plane,symbolized,the everyday life of this world,pushing, shoving,dog eat dog,complete and total disregard,for one's fellow man,all by the urging,of the voice,of the god of this world who awaits to see,who will walk over, the edge,to an eternity,of damnation.But,glory thanks,blessings,honour,praise,dominion peace,joy,happiness,come from our Lord and Savior,Jesus Christ,who has done more for us than we could ever imagine, i fall down humbly,at his feet,as his servant.I most graciously,ask that you,be in prayer,for me,for i am praying,for you, and Jay,let nothing,i don't care what comes down the pike,let nothing get in your way,from doing what God,has called,you to do I pretty,much think,of you daily,and pray for you,and all who are on this site.May the Lord, continue to add daily,as he sees fit,and let millions upon millions,be led to him, through,this ministry,don't say that it cannot be done because it can,pray for one another,love one another,in closing,i am not a very talkative,person,but i spoke as i was led.


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