New World Order

May 3, 2001

Many believe that there will be a New World Order coming that will change the face of international politics and bring the bulk of the church with it. Are they blind? Look around you, don't wait for it to come for it is here already. Can you see it? Do you have those spiritual eyes that takes away the veil of delusion? Do you have ears to hear what Jesus is saying to the churches? Many have taken the mark of the beast already and worship it's image. They think it is Jesus bringing revival but it is apostasy and they have fallen prey to the god of this world. The kingdom of Jesus is not of this world, nor it is given over to its politicians. I see delusion and falseness all around me, I am surrounded with deception and bombarded with deceivers that know I am supposed to love them anyway. That's tough in the flesh but Jesus is faithful. I am also among those with great love and spirituality that hear the Lord.

The problem with Christians in recognizing the prophesied New World Order is that they refuse to come out of the religious world order that is putting it together. They have become worldly, mired in their own self-righteousness and right-wing materialistic confusion. I see so-called Christian prophets disguising this New World Order as ordained and anointed of God when it is fact demon inspired. This is the delusion that God has sent to the church for believing a lie. Open your eyes and ears church, the time is short. Come out of that placating delusion. We are in the midst of apostasy, not revival.

OK, so we have an end-time discussion. There is much false teaching regarding the end-times that is based upon common errors, some of them hundreds of years old. There are many that will follow every wind of doctrine based upon these errors. Wild claims abound but much truth is here. Let's set some boundaries.

First of all, the end-times did not end in 70 A.D. Matthew 24 reveals prophecies concerning the destruction of Jerusalem but also things yet to come. Discernment is needed here, not an attitude that tries to explain away the rest of the Bible to prove isolated points. Jesus had already sent His Holy Spirit to the church by that time, we comprise His body and the promise of His coming to rule over the nations in power and glory is for a future time. Of course He is here in spirit throughout church history, "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Of course there is the spiritual kingdom that is here and Jesus reigns in our hearts but there is also a future kingdom coming that will see satan bound for a thousand years. The end-times may have started around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem but Jesus told us beforehand and that only proves He was right and that the other things that He told us will also come to pass. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come... But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." To explain away the second coming because Jesus is with us in spirit already is not the gospel that was delivered to us. The Bridegroom is coming and there is yet more to come.

The book of Revelation was written around 95 A.D. There will be those that try to explain that away and change the date to prove Jesus has already come but He is the One that has warned us not to follow after them, so don't. If you have been, renew your mind and understand that the Bible teaches that many will be a part of the plagues to come and being a Christian does not exempt you from those plagues and the belief that there will not be a tribulation period coming will not keep it from happening. Pride is the main thing that keeps a mind in delusion after the truth has been exposed but in the long run, it is the denial of the spirit of Jesus. Those deceived may have a spiritual life but it is the wrong spirit. That said, I am ignorant on many matters myself, so we need to teach each other and start with a premise of love for all and be firmly grounded in the scriptures and spiritual wisdom.

The spirit of anti-christ has indeed been with us but there is a "man of sin" a "son of perdition" that is to be revealed after the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2) that we are free to call THE Anti-christ with a capital A if we so choose. We must reject any notions that Jesus is not yet to come as commonly called the second coming or that the Anti-christ will not be revealed in these last days. We must also proceed with the premise that the latter rain includes revival and harvest and reject any notions that suggest that the apostasy rules out either. We need not waste our time discussing outside of the parameters of what has already been handed down to us in truth and confirmed by the spirit. There are those of us that bear witness to each other in truth that must reach out and accept our brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what.

The responses are good for it gives us a base to work from. We do not have to be precise, many things are yet to be revealed. Like any other discussion, not everything said can be accepted but all honor and respect is still due to those that we may end up disagreeing with. It takes courage to be part of a public discussion. Lord give us strength not only to speak out but also to have the humility and discernment to conform to His truth, not our own.

There are some really great spiritual insights below, some are easy to find, you need to look past the errors for others but that's part of it. My very first visions years ago were of what was in store for me concerning the last days so I am right at home here.

The discussion is open so bring up whatever you want. We have already discussed the rapture, Babylon, the manchild and the manifest sons in the past so read up on the archives first before bringing up those subjects. I would like to hear more insights on the spirit of Jezebel and the man of sin.

End-time thinking and the prophetic is becoming main stream and the opposition will intensify. Along with the opposition is the infiltration of false apostles coming into the remnant to draw others to their own truth. Many prophets are speaking from their own hearts to draw attention to their own bias and many new to the prophetic cannot distinguish the true from the false. Those that have been part of the delusions are to be embraced, not denounced. It is the error that must be exposed.

Jesus died to take away the sins of the world, not to pronounce the human race guilty. The judgment day is yet to come. Many are worshipping a Jesus that is still upon the cross but He wants to be taken down from that cross and placed upon the throne of our hearts. He is already the Savior of the world; we must proclaim Him Lord. It is truly said by one below that we must "be ready."


Religion and False Rule Vs. God's Abiding Grace

I was raised in the Catholic Church and for me it is easy to see how the passages in Revelation 17 and 18 describe religion primarily, and that the daughters of the whore make up the Protestant movement. All of these institutions rely on making merchandise of the Church and the bride, draining their life blood. In this passage the whore holds a golden cup filled with "the blood of all the saints." This Babylon is of the same spirit as the old Jerusalem whom Jesus said was guilty of "the blood of all the saints" (Matt. 23). It is that spirit of religion. Religion is Satan's finest work, a masterful counterfeit which takes the place of true "worship in spirit and in truth", in the simplicity of the Abrahamic faith, not to be found in temples or in holy mountains (John 4:21-24).

There is a golden thread that runs down through time from the rebellion of Satan to the very present hour. It is a thread that is depicted by the two women in front of Solomon fighting over the baby. One is willing to have it cut in half to make sure she gets her due and the other is willing to give it up, that it might live. One is selfish, smothering her own children, blood thirsty for the children of the woman of promise (see Gal. 4:21-31), and the other weeps with compassion for that son that is to come forth in his full manhood, the man-child born of the woman in Rev. 12.

The beast is simply the world governments of man that have gone on since the time when Nimrod founded Babylon. Religion has always been a part of it, even behind the iron curtain, where the dominant religion has been Communism. But the foundation of the image is still religion mixed together with the governments of men as iron and clay. Nimrod built both a walled city and a tower that they "might see God." This system of false religion and government that exists exclusive and separate from God is the whore with her daughters and the beast upon which she sits. But the good news is that the image is about to be struck down with that "Stone that was not cut with the hands of men," that "Thing which cannot be shaken," the true Foundation stone that was "laid in Zion."

When the Stone hits this monument to men, we will see this whole image of the king of Babylon (see Daniel two) come down and be blown away by the four winds of God. These are the same four winds that will cause the remnant of God, those parched, dry, dismembered bones (see Ezekiel 37) to rise into a great and mighty army. As Daniel reported, "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together (by the stone), and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." This is the day we are all waiting for, when "the kingdoms of men have become the kingdoms of our God."

As for the merchandising of the whore, where would the world's economies be without the materialism that is inspired and perpetuated by the religions of men? Where would it be without the pagan holidays and their counter parts of Christmas (winter solstice), Valentines Day, Easter (the feast of Ishtar - vernal equinox), Thanksgiving, and Halloween (All hallowed eve - fall equinox), among others? By its example, Religion inspires men to go out and live beyond their means incurring debt, thus making "the (money) merchants of the world rich with her harlotries." Yes, when this thing comes down they will wail and mourn like a woman who has just watched the death of her child.

God's chosen ones, the five wise virgins, are even now being taken out of the clay and iron mixture of the tyrannical rule of the governments of men both in religion ("five were wise and five were foolish") and the governments of men which have been inspired by Satan himself. It is no small coincidence that both Rome and hell have their armies arranged by legions.

The vessels of the temple were taken away to Babylon when Jerusalem fell under the judgement of God, but the day came when they were carried out of Babylon and restored to the temple of Zerubbabel (sown in Babylon). We who believe in Jesus have been "sown in Babylon," but we are being raised in the New Jerusalem as we are "caught up unto God." We are being birthed out of a woman who wears a crown and who gladly gives birth of her spiritual offspring into the mouth of the Dragon. But God has a better plan for those who are His "called out ones," those who are His sons. As Paul so aptly put it:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body (of Christ) is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
(1 Corinthians 15:42,43, NKJV).

The Bride is even now being separated from that soup of the religions of men, patterned after the top down management styles of their corporate world. Man's system of government has degraded as time has gone on from gold to silver, to bronze to iron to iron and clay mixed, all inspired by Satan himself. Isaiah prophesied of its final end when he said,

4 ätake up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, "How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!
5 "The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers
6 Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution.
7 "The whole earth is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy.
8 "Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ĆSince you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.
9 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 "They will all respond and say to you, ĆEven you have been made weak as we, You have become like us.
11 ĆYour pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you, And worms are your covering.
(Isaiah 14:4-11, NASB).

Satan cast the pattern for the rebellious rule of and over men. As Isaiah went on to report:

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ĆI will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.
(Isaiah 14:12-14, NKJV).

From the inception of the fall of Eve ("...if you eat of the tree you shall be like God...") to the present godless-godliness we see throughout Christendom today, there are religious men who are trying "to be like God" in their flesh. Their mantra is "What would Jesus do?" instead of "What is Jesus doing?" This is that "form of godliness" that denies (access to) the power thereof." This is the counterfeit from which we are commanded to "turn away." Only God can be God. Only Jesus can be Jesus the Christ in us. All we can do is be His willing vessels of clay which contain that Heavenly Treasure, separated from the iron of the rebellious rule of men.

With the apostle John I say, "Even so Lord Jesus, come (in us)."

Your brother in the Bride,

Michael Clark
Bayview, ID

"A Wilderness Voice"

Right on, Brother. There is going forth from the throne a living command, a word that will not return to God void, a word that has a self-fulfilling element. Not a legislative word that exposes the weakness of the flesh, but a new covenant word that produces what it commands, that perfects the church by perfect love. We've had just about enough teaching around and about it. The time is at hand for the manifestation of the very substance, not types or shadows, not words about it, but IT/HIM, the Love which God is, come to us in Christ, filling us by the Spirit and edifying the Body unto the measure of the fulness of the stature of Christ.

John Gavazzoni

>New Testament teaching shows us that we have been in the last days for
>the last two thousand years. That's a long time. Get back to me with
>whatever the Lord puts on your heart.
Dear Sir,

The last days ended in AD 70 . They were the last days of the Old Covenant people, not us.

We are in the "ages of ages." ( Epheisans 1:21 ) . Two thousand years is a long time if one is still looking for the " second coming of Christ." Otherwise , not as He also came in AD 70.

Check out the following by Gene Fadeley. Many of the "latter rain " preachers are preterists.

jim rapalje / fayetteville, nc

April, year 2001, newsletter

The Second Coming of Christ

There is no topic that the theologians are in more confusion and have set up so many contradictory situations than with the topic of the second coming of Christ. On one hand they hold that we are in Christ and He in us but on the other hand He hasn't yet arrived. We partake of the communion with Christ but minutes later we are reminded that He hasn't yet arrived. The supposed failure of Christ to return, when he promised, spawns all kinds of theological problems and inconsistencies.

What is the status of our relationship with Christ today? The root of this problem goes back to the first century Jews and their rejection of the Messiah. Jesus did not meet their expectations. He came to set up a spiritual kingdom whereas they were expecting a physical kingdom. They expected to reign with the Messiah and to rule over the entire physical world. However, Jesus declared, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." (John 18:36) It was not that Jesus was not the Messiah but rather that He did not meet their misguided expectations of the Messiah. But how does all this relate to our situation today? The world has not learned much from the first century mistakes of the Jews.

Much of the Christian world, today, is still determined that they are going to have Christ come back and set up a physical kingdom. Except, now, it will be the Christians, not the Jews, who will reign over the entire physical world with Christ. However the words of Christ still ring out, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36) How long is it going to take for Christians to get the message that Christ's kingdom is not of this world, it is a spiritual kingdom, not a physical kingdom. Materialism has always been a problem and it is very alive and well in the thinking of today.

When was the coming or appearance (the parousia) of Christ to occur? Was it not at the time of the gathering his elect. This was the bringing together of people of all nations to be one in Christ. Jesus stated, "People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God." (Luke 13:29) Was this to be a first century event of a twenty-first century event? When was it to occur?

Let us consider the time statements related to the coming of Christ. Jesus promised the first century apostles, "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Mat 10:23) The "you" of this verse were the apostles. It was to occur within some of their lifetimes. Is this time of occurrence in keeping with the teaching of other verses? Jesus, when talking to his first century disciples, said, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:28) Did this occur or do we have nearly 2000 year old people walking among us? It is to be noted that he said "some", not many or most, of them would still be alive at the coming of Christ. Only "some" would be living 40 years later when this prophecy was fulfilled.

Jesus, indicating again the time frame of his coming, said, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." (Mat 24:30) He continued by saying, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Mat 24:34) He had earlier told them, "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." (Mat 23:36) Did these events happen during that generation as prophesied or did they fail?

Josephus, the Jewish first century historian, recorded concerning the year 70, "Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit to the signs that were so evident and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see, or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, an a comet, that continued a whole year." He continued by saying, "...and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." Josephus, who was not a Christian, understood these signs to be related to the then soon coming judgment. This coming in judgment was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple, the city of Jerusalem, and the nation of Israel.

Jesus taught a first century return, but what did the apostles and other writers of the New Testament teach? The author of the book of Hebrews told his first century readers, "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (Heb 9:28) If Christ has not yet fulfilled this prophecy, then we do not now have salvation for that was what he was to bring with him. He continued, "For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay." (Heb 10:37) Jesus had told them, "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." (John 16:16) The "you" of this verse were the people to whom he was speaking, that was the first century disciples.

When Paul wrote the Thessalonians in the year 54, he didn't make any attempt to correct their supposed misunderstanding of the imminent return of Christ. He only told them that the return had not occurred as of that date. One question; if the Thessalonian brethren were expecting a physical return of Christ and a physical kingdom, how could they have misunderstood, in that, they had neither in the physical realm? The obvious answer is that they were not expecting a physical but rather a spiritual return of Christ and a spiritual kingdom. Their problem was, rather, that they were teaching that it had already occurred when, in fact, it would be another sixteen years before the prophecies would be fulfilled. When the disciples saw these things, they would know that Jesus was present and that He was reigning in his kingdom.

In the year 64, some of the people were accusing Jesus of delaying his coming in that generation as He had promised. (Mt. 23:36; 24:34; 1 Pet. 4:7) Some were saying, "Where is this 'coming' he promised?" (2 Pet. 3:4) It had already been about thirty-four years since Jesus' resurrection and ascension. They had learned that his return would be soon but it had not occurred yet in their lifetime. It would be about another six years, in the year 70, when these prophecies of Jesus would be fulfilled. Peter told his first century readers, "The end of all things is near." (1 Pet 4:7) It was the end of all things that these people held near and dear when their temple, Jerusalem, and their nation fell. It was the end of their world.

But what does all this mean to us? It means that Christ kept his word and completed salvation for all who will follow Him. It means that Christ is NOW reigning in His eternal kingdom. It means that we can be in Christ and He in us. It means that we NOW have eternal life and that our death is merely stepping from this realm into the heavenly realm to be with Christ forever. Christ has already kept his promises to mankind. He did not fail! What great blessings Christ has given us!

Yours in Christ,
Gene Fadeley

Dear Jay,

Over the past 10 years God has asked me to examine what I believe on just about every major (and quite a few minor) issues within the Word. Although I have always questioned, I had fallen into a denomination that didn't like questioning and had begun to believe that I had a problem no one else seemed to have. As God began preparing me for what He would have me do, it began with questioning what I believe--really believe, not what I'd been taught, thought I knew or assumed. It might sound like a crisis of faith but it really hasn't been like that at all--it's been this incredible journey into understanding so much more and a stripping away of many things that are unnecessary, a redefining of who I am in Christ.

When I saw your topic, and I'm new to your site, I simply had to shake my head. Quite some time ago, God began a "new" journey with me--causing me to go into the Word and really study what I believe about the last days. It began with a simple statement or rather question as I looked into a popular new fiction series that "everyone" seemed to be reading--including within my own home. My teenage daughter asked me a simple question, by the leading of the Holy Spirit I know, "What if this is wrong?" I gave her some sappy canned answer at the time but it began to eat at me--not just what if this "theory" is wrong but what are the repercussions to the Kingdom if it's touted as fact and it is wrong. It is another subject that has long divided camps, caused heated discussions and debates within the Body of Christ and we tend to think of it as an "internal" problem that doesn't really concern the unchurched but that isn't true. Loudly proclaiming one view as fact and teaching it as such when the Bible clearly states we don't know something can be extremely dangerous. The consequences of expounding a particular "theory" can be very damaging--not just another nail in our credibility coffin that divisiveness does to nonbelievers but we can mislead people in a myriad of directions. They can be living their lives as they want, assuming that they'll know when we all get raptured out and take their chances they can come to Christ then. Or the Pre-Trib people will have major egg on their face of prophecy is fulfilled that enters us into the Tribulation and we're all still here. Plus, if we go through the tribulation, are we prepared for it? Are we ready, really ready? Have we thought this through to it's full Kingdom application? Are we preparing the believers to be ready? Or have we become complacent and theoretical about it because it has been 2000 years? As we look at this issue I believe that we, as a Body, must come to some understanding we can stand on that will not jeopardize the reputation of God. This has such eternal consequences for the world, we can't afford to not find a basis of unity here that can be shared with the world. We need to study this so that we can be ready to give an answer to every person of the hope that lies within us. We also need to be ready ourselves because in such an hour as we think not, He will come.

In Him,


Hi Dee,

Your concerns are also mine. I did not mention the rapture or pre-trib theories to discuss for that exact reason in that it really can be dangerous at this point and we have discussed these things already. What does matter is that many are propounding theories that put people in a false sense of security, if in fact these things are not true that they teach. I know what popular new fiction series teach and that is what it is, fiction, not fact or even prophecy unless it is false prophecy. In that they are so popular, there is a saying that when people write for fools, they are assured of a large audience. But this is only my opinion, we are not at the point yet where we can come to agreement on these things. As for the remnant, we do need to do exactly as you say, prepare to be ready, put away that complacency and come to understanding. That takes dialogue.


End Time Events

I have been a Christian for 9 1/2 years - for the first few years of my new life I met so many people who told me that they had accepted the Lord during a movement that took place (I think) in the 80's - the movement focused on the fact that the "rapture" - the taking away of a specific group of people by the Lord - was going to take place soon. They even had the year down. I know I have always had a lot of joy for the Lord and I think they were sharing to let me know that they had had it once also. But when the due date came and no "rapture" they told me their joy and excitement passed away along with the expected due date. So should our joy be centered on the passing away of this earth or more on the passing away of the flesh?

Jay, since no one has talked about the end-time events I would like to ask some questions - some directly - some in a round about way. First - I used to agree on some points with these people. When we read Rev. 4 and John says, "Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter." Simple, I thought, church age over, now we are reading what happens to the earth when the church is out of the way. Who the believers are after the church is taken away; well there are a lot of popular books out right now that talk about that, so I don't want to go there.

I don't believe that way anymore. I think most people feel that the first three chapters of Rev. deal with specific time frames of church history. I think it's reasonable that we can also apply the personality of these churches to churches (and people) that have existed throughout history. For example the Laodicean church. They are neither hot nor cold. Church is a good solid organization - friends - at one point the only time to get together with your friends - good moral foundations - but no excitement, joy or power in the fact that there is a living God that moves among them, who lives within them. On the same thought there have always been those who belong to the Philadelphia church, the people who have a little strength (Greek - small amount of miraculous power), who have not denied His name, and no man has taken their crown from them.

So if we take a different approach and apply the personalities of these churches to churches that exist today (and throughout the church age) - use the first three chapters more as an overlay of the rest of the book of Rev. how are we to interpret this book? Not assuming that the church is taken away but still exists and is dealing with the reality of these events. Some of it is obvious. John saw some pretty horrible events take place, things that probably seem very normal to us today, wars, death of people and animals, destruction of the earth. Even the angels who sound forth the trumpets could be people God has chosen to remind us that there will come a day when this body you live in will perish and another day with a new body is waiting for you, soon. Your personal rapture - being taken away in the body could happen as you drive in your car today.

Personally, I believe there will come a day when this world will be destroyed. That the God who created a heaven so vast that we can't measure it has somehow created a new home for us. Where there is no need of a sun, or water or anything that fulfills the needs of the flesh.

Question - Matthew 24:35-44. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. So many ways to go on this, since the word is God and in Him is our only life, so those who believe in Him leave behind the flesh and enter into the direct presence of His Word. But in this scripture it tells of someone leaving and someone staying. We can apply this in a spiritual sense - your death as a given - you can be eating and drinking and not know when the due date of your death is going to occur. I feel God is really trying to stress the importance of our acknowledging, appreciating Him every moment in this passage, but is there to be a literal day when He lifts us out of this earth to dwell with Him? Kind of a wake up call for the rest of humanity that the end of all human life in the flesh will end, a last trumpet call for those who will believe to believe?

Zechariah 12 - there is to be a day when Jerusalem's enemies will be destroyed, that the house of David will be protected from His enemies. Is this an event that has already occurred?

Rev. 16 - Again I think we can apply this entire book to our lives spiritually but I also think there is a physical reality to this book. Much of it we could discuss and see has already happened throughout history. But what about Rev. 16 - when the hail comes down from heaven weighing the weight of a talent (?) and every island and mountain has disappeared. I know that has not happened.

Jay, I really have a lot of questions regarding end-time events but I think I will leave it here for now. Again, I am not saying that all the events in Rev. don't occur in the physical realm, because I think it does and that it has been happening. I just pray that the people who needed to see that the end was coming soon will be able to experience the excitement and expectation of the Lord as they apply the spiritual reality of this book to their lives. Continue to stay awake, don't let the cares of this world take away the thrill of being with Him. Because it is a given, you will be taken from your physical body at some point.

So when He calls - answer, and when He speaks, listen. (Isaiah 65:12)



Hi Arlette and all,

Thanks for sharing. We discussed the rapture before and mostly, the only thing we decided is that it was an issue that we did not need to agree on. Many disagree with that approach, both sides of course but love is the identifying feature of Christians, not our rapture or millenial position. It is hard to prepare the church to be the Bride of Christ if they think that they will not be around. Many but not all of the pre-tribbers hold it as a sacred cow and if you do not agree with their way, you are guilty of heresy. That should give us a clue but many can approach others in love and it is not an issue that should divide us. In that there have been those that have predicted a date is not demonic or heretical but just plain stupid. Even the JW's have learned their lesson on that one.

The book of Revelation comes with a blessing and a curse. A blessing to those that read it "and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." A curse to those that add to it or take anything away from it: "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

So we really need to be careful what doctrines we promote as scriptural truth regarding Revelation. You bring up a very good example of what people have done to add to the prophecies. Revelation 4:1 has been used by many to prove the pre-trib rapture. Here is what it says: Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

First of all, who is taken up to heaven here? the scriptures clearly say John and that he was to be shown was to happen "hereafter." It says nothing about the church, or the saints or even the timing at this point. To point to the rapture from this verse is putting the pre-trib rapture on shaky ground that cannot be upon a biblical foundation if this is the best that pre-tribbers can come up with to prove their point. I have heard many refer to this scripture which means that they are adding to the prophecies and that is dangerous ground. I look at doctrines founded upon interpretations that seem to read into scripture and come to conclusions that something is wrong here, what is it? I hope that we do not have a rapture discussion.

I agree also that the first three chapters of Revelation deal with church history. The letters to the seven churches are an outline of different church periods that appear throughout history but we need to be careful whose interpretation we are listening to, the clear teaching of the Bible or Christian teachers. There are those that teach that they are successive periods where each end as another begins but the plain text is very clear in that these church periods may begin at different times but exist together until Jesus comes. Ephesus is warned to repent and do the first works, there has always been persecuted churches throughout history like Smyrna. We can easily see the Roman church in Pergamos and existing during the reformation but it still exists, Thyatira is told to "hold fast till I come," Sardis was told to "strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die" but yet will be around when Jesus will "come on thee as a thief." Philadelphia will be kept "from the hour of temptation" and the Laodiceans do not include all of us in our "age" for it excludes those that are cold or hot. I believe that all these churches exist today in one form or another and will be until Jesus comes.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." This is pretty clear but I received a message from one concerning a "preterist" view and he says that the end-times ended in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple. Has anyone else heard of this? I am not clear if he is the preterist or I am. I generally reject these kinds of labels anyway. Dealing with these things would also answer the questions that Arlette has posed here.

The revelation of John was given after the destruction of Jerusalem and we all (mostly all) believe that the second coming is in the future but we need to give an answer and I have no idea what the man is talking about. I mentioned that we would try to deal with all wild claims and this sounds like one but it is only from my perspective. I have had similar views just like this e-mailed to me in the form of hate mail in that I am so stupid for teaching about the Bride and the remnant, a future revival and harvest and Jesus is coming soon. He put in a newsletter from Gene Fadeley at which is too long for here but I looked up the site and could not find anything but one man's opinion that end-time teaching is false. Check it out.

What kind of answer can we give here? Makes no sense to me. Has anyone ever heard the view that the second coming already happened in 70 A.D.?


This is my first posting to the group and I would like to make some comments regarding end-time events.

In some ways I might agree with the man about the 70 A.D. statement although I believe and scripture supports that the Tribulation period started when Jesus was crucified. It was at that time that God judged the earth and found all mankind guilty. With the coming of the Holy Spirit, God New Covenant with mankind was established which provided the only way out of condemnation. From that point on any individual on earth that would willingly desire to believe in Jesus could ask for and receive the Holy Spirit and be saved from the condemnation that was a part of the world.

When Jesus was crucified, Satan claimed victory over God and became the ruler of the world. He had shown Jesus what he was going to accomplish and had given Jesus a chance to be a part of it. The only thorn in the side of Satan began when the Holy Spirit was given to the earth in order to establish the only way of salvation for mankind. It was then that Satan began his war against The Church-The Kingdom of God-which was/is to be The Body of Christ with the resurrected Jesus as the head. The Kingdom of God was/is a spiritual kingdom and is still alive and well on this earth and we who believe in Jesus are a part of it.

Satan began his work by persecuting the Christians in Jerusalem and Judea. He continued his moves to destroy all evidence of God through the destruction of Jerusalem about 60 A.D. and continued persecutions of Christians. Being unable to completely destroy the people who had entered into God's Kingdom through extreme cruelty and torture he added his work of deception by working toward establishing his own church. Christians being eaten by lions, the Crusade, the Inquisition period, Bible writers being burned at the stake, and wars with Christian justification should not leave any doubt that Satan is in charge of this world and that the tribulation period started many long years ago.

The misinterpretation of the Scripture in Daniel is a deception that came out of Satan's newly established church. A Jesuit priest determined that Daniel was talking about a future seven-year tribulation period. Obviously this was an attempt to hide Satan's work of the present.

Any attempt to determine end-time events must first start and concur with what Jesus had to say when He was physically on the earth and then agree with the writing of Paul and John and then see how the writing of the old prophets fit into that picture.

There is no question in my mind but that Satan will shortly be revealed through the office of the Pope. Through the guise of peace and safety of mankind, Satan will be declaring himself to be the only God of this world. Jesus can call his church out of this world at any time. Be ready.

Ben Segrest

In reply to Ben's comments regarding end-time events, I would first like to caution you in regards to your comments regarding the catholic church and the pope on this forum, as you may get yourself into some pretty hot water if they are negative comments.

I do not want to get myself in hot water by speaking thus, but I feel a gentle caution is necessary my friend, from one who has learnt the hard way, from doing the very same thing.

I agree that the tribulation started from the Lord's resurrection onwards, and I will let one who speaks better than I tell it how it is, DANIEL 9:24 "Seventy weeks - ( seventy times seven years, which makes just 490 years, and the affairs to assail Israel fall into these times. Lev. 26:34 - "Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies land" Now the people shall enjoy their sabbaths seven times seventy sabbatical years, which makes ten jubilees. The beginning of this time, was from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem Ezra 1:1-4. In the first seven weeks, or forty nine years, the temple and city were built.

"....are determined for your people and for your holy city,- (Jerusalem). To finish the transgression,- (a noun. transgress - go beyond the limits set by a moral principle, standard, law). "To make an end of sins," (an immoral act considered to violate divine law, regarded as a serious offence). It is also simply missing the mark of God's perfect will for our lives, of which we are all offenders.

"To make reconciliation - (restore friendly relations between two or more parties, to make or show to be compatible) "for iniquity - (injustice or immoral behaviour). "To bring in everlasting righteousness, (morally right or justifiable). This is what is spoken of when we say salvation through Christ Jesus. All that His death represents, is here what is spoken of.

"To seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most High." The death of Jesus on the cross, His total submission to the divine will of the Father and His total obedience, to all that befell Him, for the glory of the Father, for this He was glorified, and became a ruler with Him. This is the same that is offered to each and every one of us, to accept God's divine will for our lives, no matter what the cost, and to do all that He asks us to do, for HIS glory.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command - (Ezra - approx. 457B.C. -Persian Empire). "To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty- two weeks - (43 yrs), The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times." In my understanding, this brings us to today, after the city was rebuilt, and it is truly in troublesome times. It is only as a passing comment that the street Jesus was supposed to have walked is still used every year in a re-enactment of His walk to the cross, and the wall is also still a focal point of Jewish custom.

It is also of great interest that the temple is being planned for its re-building, with the Menorah already made, of pure gold at the cost of American $1000 000. The priests are being trained as we speak for the return of the priesthood, and their robes are being made, at enormous cost for the days they shall again perform their duties. It is also claimed that the ark of the covenant has also been found, outside of Israel Herself.

Of much greater interest is the fact that water has begun to flow from the temple site, just as prophecy has said it would, and that the leading Rabbi's of the Orthodox Jews in Israel have proclaimed, only this past month, that Israel has entered her time of Jacob's trouble, also a prophetic fulfilment. One more for good measure, is that they have also proclaimed a time when the fathers hearts shall be turned to the sons, and the sons hearts to the fathers, also prophetic. The greatest of all is that the Orthodoxy are calling for all Jews, and those sympathetic to her cause, to come before the God of Israel in prayer and supplication, for her defence. Now that to me is awesome indeed, if you know your prophecies.

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;" This speaks of Jesus crucifixion, the lamb which was sacrificed, not for Himself, but for all of us. It was not the Jews, or even the Romans who put Jesus on that stinking piece of wood, it was every despicable act each one of us has ever and will ever commit. Each time, we put force behind each swing of the mallet which hammered those nails into His flesh. Every harsh word, every stand we take against a brother in arrogance, we help put that nail deeper into His flesh.

We must remember that He exists outside of our time dimension, and He exists, as it were, yesterday, today, and every tomorrow that is left, so to Him, that crucifixion is as near to Him as if it were today.

Verses 26 , and 27, speaks of the time when Jesus ministry, and the laying of the foundation of the New Jerusalem was laid, would be cut off, which it was, by His death. The Romans came in 70 A.D. and destroyed Jerusalem. This destruction and hardship has continued in waves ever since, as like a flood. The Roman prince, shall declare a covenant with many for one week, or seven years, and here is something of interest, the peace talks of America with Israel finished exactly 7 years from its inception, with the signatures of the parties involved, at the end of last year.

I am not saying that this was the seven years spoken of, but it makes you think hard about where we are in God's plan. 27- " Then He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 years), but in the middle of the week, 31/2 years, He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." This is exactly what happened at His death. He was the final sacrifice for sin, no other lamb shall have its throat cut for mankind. The son of God Himself was the sacrifice of sacrifices.

"And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." The cutting off of Jerusalem was a just punishment for the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, for their rejection were they persecuted and killed. His death took away the ceremonial laws, abolished the law of commandments. It did not end at His death. Even after, they stood their ground in rejection and defiance. They stoned Stephen for His claiming that Jesus changed the customs that Moses gave to them, Acts 4:14.

Matthew 24:15 "When you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, stand in the Holy place, then let those who shall be in Judea flee." What stands on the temple mount even now, but a Muslem shrine. The very thing which could begin the next world war, supremacy of the temple mount.

Luke 21:20, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." Here we see the fulfilment again of prophecy, even in the day we are reading these very words here before us. A dual fulfilment is a common occurrence in scripture and prophecy, so all I can advise is that you do not reject another literal fulfilment, even in our day. The media repeatedly paints Israel as the offender to the public, taking the worlds sympathy from her and turning it to her oppressors. Prophecy tells us that the world will turn against Israel, and none shall stand by her, but God Himself, and those who are for Him, His people. Just accepting Jesus as Messiah and saviour will not be enough either. That is only the first step.

Remembering that no matter what we think, God knows all, and their is still much room for learning and understanding before we even come close to understanding His ways, no matter how much we think we study and define His ways.

Something that does concern me, and it is in regards to the involvement of the catholic church in Jewish affairs, is that the catholic church has made sure its interests in Israel are protected, no matter the outcome, and again, she shows her true colours, as she did in the holocaust, when she could have acted and saved many Jewish lives, but rather, her inaction saw her side with Hitler, and even help his cause, though many would say, subtly. The catholic church may not be the anti-Christ power, but she will be a part of it.

Prophecy dictates her end also.

We are not to align ourselves to an institution, but to Jesus Himself, and no church has this authority on earth, no matter what its claims are. Any organisation who sheds so much blood, and has tried to supress the scriptures from mankind with so much blood shed, can not possibly be of God. The other churches are proving to be not much better, in spiritual matters either.

This brings me to conclude that Jesus, in this hour is calling out His chosen from all organised, denominational, and non-denominational organisations, world-wide. The book, "Song Of Solomon", I believe, is a great study for this hour, if you substitute the Shulamite for the beloved bride, the virgins as the church, daughters of Jerusalem as the Jews, the Beloved as Jesus Himself. Look closely, with an open mind, but more importantly, with an open heart, and ask Him to show you the glories of this hour hidden within these chapters.

Peace and blessing to all.



I have to agree with you Suzanne. The Protestants in every generation have looked to the Pope as the Anti-christ and each generation was wrong. The reason for this is that the Protestants are as much a part of Babylon as the Roman Catholics and cannot see past their own exalted image of themselves. In blaming the Pope, satan has the advantage to sneek in his own man unnoticed. As soon as we start seeing Jesus as our Lord and true leader, we can see past our own delusions. That is happening but the majority of the church will follow the Anti-christ when he comes simply because he is not recognized. He will be called anointed of God and the dew of heaven is on him, it will take much courage to go against the organized church on this.

We cannot fault Ben for this however, he is just echoing the "traditional" view that has caused the delusion to begin with.


I thought you said in one of your discussions that you wanted to hear some things about the Jezebel spirit(?) If so, I think the Lord showed me something. please tell me your impressions. In His service,
Lori Thomas


I saw a person in a box. Walls all around kept the person bound. They were in a prison cell. Then I saw another person surrounded by a circle that went around and around. On the outside of the circle were beams of light, flowing outward from the person, through the circle and out. Then I saw a body of water- it was a very swift moving.


The first person who was in the prison represents the prophetic voice that is unable to find release. The second person represented what God intended the prophetic voice to be- free, and able to find release through Him as He surrounds, protects and filters. The release of the truly prophetic voice is powerful and should flow freely like the river.

There are many that are imprisoned by fear of man and/or intimidation by a spirit of Jezebel.

I kept hearing the word control and I began to write what came to mind. This is what I believe the Lord was telling me.

Control says, "I can't trust you to do the right thing, so I will make up the rules and you will do it my way. It's my way or nothing. Control comes when one is insecure, hurt, and untrusting. No one else can have a voice about it. Control manipulates others to feel guilty and fearful of no doing it "right", or not having done it "right." Control is witchcraft and deadly when it comes to the moving of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is quenched when control enters the picture because the Spirit is the One who is to control and be in control. Being led by the flesh is a form of control because it is contrary to being led by the Spirit. Something is either Holy Spirit controlled or it's not. PERIOD! Anything not Spirit controlled is controlled from the wrong source- either self or flesh, or demonically (or both).

I believe that the Lord is calling His people to stand against the Jezebel spirit. Control is one of many effects of that spirit. We need to break free from this and allow the voice of God in us to be released and constantly flowing!


Thanks Lori,

It will go out in tomorrows edition of the latter rain list (probably tomorrow)

As to impressions, I do believe that the spirit of control and manipulation is very much a part of this Jezebel spirit. I hope we expand this even more.


In the book of Revelation, Jesus talks to us through his disciple John. The book was written around 95 A.D., which was about sixty years after the resurrection of Jesus. The very basics of Christianity had been established during that first sixty years and there was time for deception to creep into the churches along with the persecutions. John had been exiled from the mainland because of his Christian faith and was a prisoner on the island of Patmos. The book of Revelation presents in symbolic form the program by which Jesus will carry out His work. Jesus begins speaking to us by speaking to the seven churches or conclaves of people that had been established up to that period of time. It was His work through these conclaves of people that each person of the world was to be given the opportunity for eternal life with God.

First, speaking about the symbolic form used in the book of Revelation, and putting ourselves in the place of God, how would you have spoken to people that would have been reading your message along the way for two thousand years? Cave dwellers used hieroglyphics, so it should not be so strange to consider the symbolic form that was used in the Bible as some great mystery. In fact, the magnificent wonder of the entity encouraging the writing is awesome. For example, how could someone two thousand plus years ago say that in the last days "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased?" This statement was given to and written by Daniel about six hundred years before Jesus was born. How could anyone, even just a hundred years ago, have guessed that a flight to the moon would actually happen and computers would exist?

Isn't it interesting that the first chastisement that Jesus gives to the churches is they have left their first love? "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent." Rev. 2:4-5

The first love of any new Christian is Jesus. Now, Jesus is writing to a church full of Christians and telling them that they have left the main reason for their being a Christian. He is saying basically, "Get with the program." The first work of God is to believe in Jesus. "This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent." John 6:29 He is saying to do the first work or else He will come quickly and you will not be ready. Remember the parable of the virgins, some had oil for their lamps and some did not have oil? A current example of this chastisement by Jesus is that if a Christian is depending on their knowledge of a Trinity doctrine for salvation, they have left their first love. Most churches of this day have in their creeds, " I believe in God the Father almighty maker of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ his only son our lord." They have left their first love and deny the scripture that says, "He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not." John 1:10

Now, these Christians that are about to lose their candlestick (their place in heaven) are not bad people. "I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou has tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience and for My name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted." Rev. 2:2-3 Could this be the Christian Coalition?

There is one thing that seems to be perfectly clear. (Give it a try if you do not believe it.) If you depend totally upon Jesus and believe that He created the world and everything in it, you will not be welcomed by Churches or by the Christian Coalition, or for that matter, the peoples of the world. The Christians have lost their first love and the people of the world do not want to be bothered.


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