The Abomination of Desolation
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15....
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21
Any past fulfillments of the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel are considered types of what is to come. In that it could be Nebuchadnezar could mean that there are different fulfillments as being types of the desolation, so anything here is possible if it leads us to the truth of our time and the Anti-christ. For example, Antiochus Epiphanes is considered a fulfillment of this prophecy as a type and a forerunner example of the Anti-christ in that he sought to force Greek culture and manners on the Jews irrespective to their faith in God and tried to put an end to the Jewish religious community. Epiphanes' name means God made manifest, he occupied Jerusalem, entered the Holy of Holies and desecrated the sanctuary by offering unclean animals upon the alter of burnt-offerings. He then polluted the whole building by sprinkling it with water in which flesh had been boiled, dedicated the Temple itself to Jupiter Olympius and erected a statue to him and then plundered the temple treasures. This of course led to the Maccabean revolt and a real victory for Judah until Rome came, this is the celebration of Hannakah, types of restoration for sure. Titus would also be a type in that the legions invaded Jerusalem with the symbol of the eagle and destroyed the temple in 70 A.D. Again Epiphanes, Nebuchadnezar and Titus would only be types of what is still yet to come, the papacy is also a type but not the fulfillment.
The spiritual temple is being restored now and will continue during that 70th week of Daniel. We may take many clues from the history of Israel and the Jews to point to our specific task in understanding the personality of the Anti-christ and what would apply to the abomination of desolation. The Anti-christ will be a political leader but only a religious one in that he is riding upon Babylon. He will cause the image of the beast to be worshipped and represents a worldly religion of the flesh, so he will have the favor of the religious community that have taken the spiritual mark upon them of idolatrous and political worship. The spiritual sacrifices that he makes are fleshly, not spiritual. Those people of God who follow him are not walking in the spirit according to the true Jesus but may come in His name, thinking that they are serving God. We may draw many correct inferences if we approach the question in this way. The people of God may not even know who he is until Jerusalem is taken over by him and the abomination of desolation takes place. Remember that the rebuilding of the temple may be a physical temple in Jerusalem but it applies to us as the temple made without hands. While Babylon is waiting for something physical, delusion blinds them to what is happening in the spiritual realm.
We must all be careful not to make exact pinpoint predictions as to fulfillments of dates. I remember a popular author who wrote a book called the seven year shaking or something like that that predicted the tribulation period to start around 1993. The man is still writing and even more popular which gives us an idea of how many people will flock behind false teaching just because it is in the prophetic.
There is a real dilemma that I have that I would like to carry further and that is the problem with Gog and Magog being released at the end of the millennium period to decieve the nations once more. I realize that this is what the scriptures teach so I also believe in it and that they will be consumed. What I do not understand is that this is at the end of the millennial reign of peace. There will be no more tears, the lion has laid down with the lamb, we have turned our swords into plowshares. And then the nations will be deceived by Gog and Magog and gathered together to battle? This is supposed to be a time of a new earth and a new heaven, the sea is no more and nations will not rise up against nation any more. Now the last days are really not the last days in that the end of the millennial period is the last days but what does that do to our understanding of the last days?
This is the prophecy in Micah 4:
Either this is for the last days that we are looking toward in these last days or it is not. Most bible teachers would suggest that this is the millennial kingdom that Micah is prophesying here. Only to take back the prophecy and assemble the nations to war once more and then from Gog and Magog? Gog signifies Russia as being the chief prince of Rosh and is confirmed by being the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal which become the Russian Moscow and Tubolsk. Gog and Magog exists now and are the northern army that we are to be delivered from. We are to prophesy against them. It does not make sense that they will re-appear as the same nations unless we re-evaluate our thinking. This is the best argument for an a-millennial position that I have seen but it has yet to persuade me against pre-millennialism. There has been a lot of response in that the restoration has been with us during the entire church age as if the temple made without hands has been under construction for the last two thousand years. There is a discussion brewing here.
I believe that these Gog and Magog things will happen also but it just does not make sense to me is all. The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it. Satan will be bound for a thousand years and then be allowed to return and bring this about at the end of the thousand years. We can understand this but if the finality of our understanding of the millennium as to war no more is not given to the letter of scripture, then our understanding must be faulty, not the Bible.
Can you fill in these thoughts for me?
Read the dialogue below. More thought on Jezebel, the prophecies of Micah, and the things brought up above.
The Anti-christ, still having trouble closing out the issue. Anyway, what is your take on Gog and Magog? The issue is in the prophecy of war no more until this is fulfilled yet the millennial kingdom is supposed to be a time of peace where there is war no more. Can anyone see my problem in understanding this? Or are we all confused? Do we have to change our millennial position for it to fit? Keep looking up, answers are coming. This discussion is still open to whatever the Lord puts on your heart, so feel free to change the subject as long as it is on end-time thinking.
Jay
Jay,
"And I gave her space to repent of her "fornication", and she repented
not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit "adultery"
with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."
I believe that it is safe to say that we all realize that Jezebel is
not gender-based. The Church is often referred to as a "woman" through
Scripture and that those who are "married to Him" are referred to as His
Bride. This Bride of Christ is comprised of both male and female. Only
those who interpret His Word based upon their natural, carnal thinking are
deceived into believing that the Father excludes believers based on gender.
Mystery Babylon, though described as a "woman" is also comprised of male and
female.
What stood out to me in the verses above was the Lord saying that He
gave her space to repent of her "fornication". Webster's defines
"fornication" as "sexual intercourse between unmarried man and woman".
Jezebel is NOT married to the Bridegroom(nor ever has been), though she
conducts herself as if she is by claiming the same privileges as those who
are. Those who are wed to the Bridegroom are His Bride. These ones have
legal right to His Name and walk in the authority of His Wonderful Name, by
their submission to Him as their Husband, and their faithfulness to His
Name.
Jezebel "fornicates" with all that would give her glory. She desires
to be followed. She does not want to follow after the Bridegroom and in
fact, has refused His offer to wed. Jezebel desires her own kingdom, one in
which all are subject to her alone. Jezebel mistakenly believes that she is
the inspired one, and craves the affections and attentions of men. She
surrounds herself with those who will tell her what she wants to hear, and
she destroys all those who will not "fornicate" or commit "adultery" with
her.
Those who "fornicate" with Jezebel are those who are not wed to the
Lord either (nor ever have been). Those who commit "adultery" with Jezebel
are those who have married the Bridegroom, but have forsaken their "wedding
bed", to follow after those who claim to be inspired by Him, but are not.
Jezebel has put herself in His place in the midst of His people. She claims
an authority that is not of the Lord, she demands to be the Head. She
builds her own kingdom and rules it through fear, intimidation, threats,
false prophets, lies, schemes, manipulations, etc...She claims to be His
Queen, representing His Will and speaking His words before His people. She
leads His people into idolatry where they worship all that she worships,
loves all that she loves, and hates all that she hates.
She sees herself as the Shepherd, as one in whom the sheep must follow
and obey. She detests those who refuse to bow down, worship, and obey her
in all things. She detests those who know His Voice and will follow and
obey no other. She profanes His Name by claiming that her own words are
His, that her own way is His, and that His people are subject to her instead
of the Lord. She keeps His people bound in her lies, bound in idolatry,
worshipping her and her idols above His Holy Name. She does all of these
things in His Name, claiming that it is HIM who has called her. She preys
on the weak minded, the poor in heart, the lame, the sick, the
poverty-stricken, the ignorant. ALL who are led by their natural mind fall
prey to the beauty of her face, and the sweet words of death that she
speaks, as she leads them further and further into fulfilling her own
natural desires.
The majority of today's Church is ruled by this spirit, daily
worshipping man above the Lord, daily worshipping the idols that man has
built in his own name, daily submitting themselves to that which the Lord
detests. Daily they profane His Name, all the while deceived into believing
that these things are pleasing to Him. Praise His Name that Jezebel's reign
ends now! There are many, many who have not bowed their knee to Baal!
These ones have been beaten, threatened, sent out into the wilderness, fled
for their lives, etc...at the command of Jezebel, but they have refused to
commit adultery with her, and those she has beguiled. These ones are
receiving the true Word within them, ready to speak at His Command!
As He speaks, the kingdoms of Jezebel fall. Many who now
"fornicate" with her will repent, and be wed to their true Bridegroom. Many
who now commit "adultery" with her will repent and return to their first
Love. The lies of Jezebel are being revealed and the idols of man are being
destroyed. This is the restoration He speaks of. Those who are His
remnant, His Bride, are given unto His people, so that none would be lost.
Only the wicked shall refuse to come to Him in this day of revealing. The
remnant, the Bride, are but first fruits of all that the Lord intends to do.
These ones are in no way the completion of what He intends, they are but
stepping stones, pointing the Way to all those who are blind and deaf, but
are now beginning to see and hear.
Jezebel claims to be the Shepherd. She teaches His people to follow
her instead of Him. In her way, sheep follow sheep, blind follow the blind.
His remnant, His Bride teach ALL to follow Him, and NO OTHER. Jezebel
desires her own kingdom. His Bride desires His Kingdom. Jezebel kills all
who refuse her attentions and demands. His Bride loves all, even as He
loves.
Jezebel is fallen! She no longer has power over His people! Her day
of reign has ended! The Lord has risen in His Glory and His power to defeat
the kingdoms of darkness and set free the captives so that they may follow
Him in all their ways. That is why our eyes and ears are opening. We are
no longer blind nor deaf, because He has chosen this day that we may be set
free. Thank You Lord that first fruits are only Your Beginning...that the
whole tree will grow until Your branches are full to overflowing!
Be blessed in Him in all things, Lorraine C.
=======================================================================
Hi Lorraine,
Appreciate the good word. You really have a grasp of the Jezebel spirit.
The Lord is putting it into the hearts of many of His people lately to
recognize her, I believe that it is very important.
I would add something though in that the Jezebel spirit can delude many
of God's people. The Bride may be holy but when Jesus tells His people
to come out of Babylon, we must realize that it is indeed His people
that He is referring to. We are told to strengthen what remains so of
course we are not to be the ones to judge and condemn them but to love
them and bring them the message of light.
And all due respect to Daniel Webster as to fornication only being to
unmarried people, it was Jesus however that said "But I say unto you,
That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of
fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry
her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Stay blessed,
Jay
=======================================================================
Jay,
Oh yes, I see what you are saying in quoting the words of Jesus.
Fornication occurs also with those who are married. I understand that
Webster and his definitions are of man also...lol. I believe that the Lord,
by drawing my attention to this was simply revealing to me that Jezebel
(spirit) has never wed Him nor can she without repentance and giving up her
kingdom. She encourages all of those who have wed Him to leave their
relationship with Him to as Hosea states: take other lovers...or put flesh
and blood relationships above Him.
I see Jezebel as a spirit which rules the religious systems, which is
causing His people to follow after each other and follow after many idols.
This system despises His Word, His Message, which releases His people to
follow only Him, to hear and obey only Him, to be faithful only to Him.
Jezebel is dangerous to His people because she beguiles those who desire to
wed themselves to Him, to forsake their relationship with Him and follow
after other gods.
I do not see "flesh and blood", but people spiritually bound by this
lying spirit. Those who are being freed from Babylon, are not natural
"judges", but simply speak His Message as He speaks. They do not judge
after the flesh, but after the Spirit. They love as He loves, and desires
what He desires, which is His people to follow only Him. Jezebel may
reject, harm, and try to destroy "flesh and blood", but it is really His
Word, His Message that she detests. Because she judges after the flesh, she
attacks flesh and blood. Not so with those who judge after His Spirit.
These ones are like Stephen when he asked the Father to forgive them because
they didn't know what they were doing. Stephen could love those who killed
him, because he knew that it was not him they hated but God's Word.
Jezebel chases away the true Word of God because His Word destroys what
she has built, His Presence causes her beauty to fade and her own personal
glory to dim. Hosea describes Jezebel perfectly and her fate. She is
dangerous to His Bride because she tries to woo them away from their
relationship with their Husband who is Christ. She is not a person, she is
the spirit which rules the religious systems of man. She has built many
idols and worships them daily. She has convinced His people that these
idols are His inspiration and are pleasing to Him. She despises all that
says differently.
I must tell you that your article on Jezebel has really got my
attention. We are all individual and He speaks to each of us using the
terminology that makes sense to us personally, but it is all the same
Message. By His Spirit we recognize His words through each other even in
their diversity.
Those who believe that they will beat people into submission to Him and
that He has called and chosen them to condemn and judge anyone have not yet
had the revelation of His Heart. He desires for none to be lost. Yes,
troubles have come upon the systems of man this day, but that is His plan,
so that they will be stripped of all that has kept them from Him, so that
they may be restored to His Heart even as we are being this day. Because
His growth, the revelation of Jesus, is progressive in each one of us, we
can be sure that before He is through that all that chooses will come into
and walk in the fullness of Christ.
Through sharing what He speaks to us personally, we cause His
understanding to grow within our hearts. He uses His Word through each of
us to increase His Light within us. That is why I say that your article on
Jezebel got my attention: He used what He has revealed to you to bring more
understanding of what He is saying to me. Thank You Lord that each
individual part of Your Body causes the whole Body to grow!
Be blessed in Him, Lorraine
=======================================================================
Yes, I think that we both have it down pat, it is good that you bring up Babylon in this discussion in the sense of being freed from the lying spirit. This delusional spirit results also in the political idolatry that is manifested in nationalism. No matter what country, there are those that worship it and think that theirs is God's country. The fact is that it is satan's domain right now as the god of this world and that includes America who will be judged soon for seducing the people into thinking that the United States is doing God's work in the nations. It is all about mammon worship, exploitation, fobidding to buy and sell in the world market-place, putting up sanctions and economic blockades against any nation that want to be free from the economic oppression that rears its ugly head from globalization. That is Jezebel also because that lying spirit is using the church to sanction military force in protecting America's economic interests. That is political fornication for sure and the tragic thing is many Christians are under that lying spirit.
Jay
=======================================================================
Yes Amen Jay! What you say here about the nations is also true. Be
blessed, Lorraine
Dear Jay
I would like to express my thoughts on the two topics,
Jezebel and the Restoration.
The spirit of Jezebel is none other than wickedness as
described in Zechariah. This is the woman that sits
in the Ephah carried by wings like a stork. Anyone
would recognize the similarity with the egyptian
goddess isis, whose symbol is the circular disk
carried by stork's wings. The Lead cover is also
associated with the planet Saturn (that is one of the
seven stars Jesus Christ holds in his right hand).
She, wickedness has been identified by all the prophets
as the Whore of Babylon in Isaiah 47 and revelation
17.
Look at the similarity of both of these prophecies.
Revelation gives us detail while Isaiah confirms we
have been given into her hand for a while, and she
showed us no mercy. She is the serpent of Genesis who
deceived Adam and Eve. Tradition also tells us she is
called AZAZEL, the goat on whom all sins were placed
on Yom Kippor. Jesus Christ is the pure Lamb
sacrificed for our sins so we might be saved.
The Restoration is a continual work that will not
reach it's climax until all the signs of revelation
are fulfilled. The world will get worse before it is
restored as said in Daniel 12, "and such destruction
has never been seen since the creation". Revelation
gives us the detail sealed up in Daniel 12. At the
death of Christ the dead saints came out of their
tombs and were seen walking and talking in Jerusalem.
This fact has not been given enough consideration by
modern christians. This is something that is about to
happen shortly.
Daniel 12
An old Kabbalist named Nostradamus prophesied
Seven years after the great year (millennium
2001AD)been pasted, near the games of blood (Olympics)
the dead will come out of their tombs.(i.e
2001+7=2008)
Different prophets have expressed their visions in the
language of there day. Anyway The lightning flash of
the Son of man (Matthew) will not be seen until all
the seals have been lifted and the tribulation near
its completion. Many living today will not witness
this experience in this current life time, but will
have already be counted with the souls of the dead
under the altar of God.
Baruch shemo.
============================================================
Hi Carl,
Interesting, could you please give me the particulars on how you arrived at 70 weeks prophecy starting from the destruction of the temple instead of the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem. And how did you arrive at the abomination of desolation being at this time?
Jay
============================================================
Dear Jay
I was not calculating the 70 weeks prophecy of
Daniel. In my view that prophecy was specifically for
the time between the destruction of the first temple
and the building of the second.
My calculations are based on the prophecy of Daniel 12
and Revelation 12. In my view Daniel 12 refers to the
times from his day to the beginning of the great
tribulation. The abomination that maketh desolate
refers to the practice of worshipping other gods and
idols. This was done by King Solomon and later kings
and led to the Diaspora of Gods people. This
abomination that maketh desolate was by the entrance
of Nebuchanezar and later the Romans into the Holy of
Holies to banish the presence of the Holy Spirit that
resided over the Temple.
So taking this view in mind the Abomination that
maketh desolate started in 586 BC or jewish calender
3174 AD. The first part of daniel 12 reveals a times
time and half time, this is referred to as 1260 days
in revelation 12. The woman in revelation twelve is
the Heavenly Eve or Holy spirit, in Judaism called
Shekinah. She is the personification of WISDOM of
whom solomon said is more important than fine gold.
This wisdom is the knowledge of Christ that will be
given to the elect as per Revelation 21, some call it
the sevenfold wisdom.
The second part of Daniel 12 gives us 1335 days until
the dead arise. This is the Prophecy of Jacob "until
Shiloh Comes" genesis 49. Added altogether it comes
to 1260 + 1335 = 2595 days. Hence when taking the
axiom a day for a year as given by Hashem to Moses on
the 9th AV while in the desert, you arrive at 2009AD.
The time is so close and Satan knows he only has a
short time left. The restoration will only begin
after the tribulation, see the words of Jesus in
Mathew. "and soon after the tribulation shall the sign
of the Son of Man be seen". The fact that Jesus
referred to the Prophecy of Daniel and Isaiah, should
tell us how accurate these prophecies are.
No one knows the hour, but to the wise is given an
understanding of the sign of the times. even Jesus
tells us we must look to the heavens and understand
the sign of the times. These signs of the times is
the calendar of the Sun, Moon and Stars as per
creation in genesis. This original heavenly calendar
is the knowledge that has been changed by Satan and
his men to confuse us today. As Daniel said they
shall think to change the times(calendar) and the Law.
I personally believe in the original calendar of Enoch
which was used at Qumran and by the older Prophets.
This calendar was given to Enoch, Abraham & Moses. It
is a jewish calendar of 364 Solar days, 354 Lunar days
and 358 Star days equals one year. Every three years
the Lunar been adjusted to equal the Solar/master
calendar. This calendar was given to enoch by
Archangel Auriel sent from God. Interestingly enough
Enoch, St Peter and St Paul in the apocrypha states
that it is this Archangel (auriel - Light of God)
presides over Tartarus (Haydes, Hell) and is responsible
for blowing the trumpet that calls the dead before the
judgment throne.
Many of the mysteries are hidden and one must such all
the old books available to see the true picture. Even
as Jesus said "seek and ye shall find". I met a
christian once who tried to convince me that there are
only two angels spoken of in the bible. I responded by
saying and what of Jacobs ladder with angels ascending
& descending? She then said "aar you are right, there
must be other angels". I hope this explains in
more detail my views.
On a separate but related point in Judaism they refer
to Abraham as blessing, Isaac as Judgment/Fear and
Jacob as Grace. a very similar concept to the Trinity
of Father, Son and Holy ghost. When applied to the
Temple we see a similar picture with the First Temple
being blessing, the second Temple being Judgment and
the third and final Temple being Grace. According to
jewish tradition the seven days of creation is to be
repeated from the creation of Adam to the end. St
Peter also tells us be not ignorant of this one thing,
a day with God is as thousand years with man. This
then refers to the 7000 years of mankind. According
to jewish calendar, we are 5761 years since Adam.
Jesus said the days would be shortened or none would
survive. The final 1000 years or Shabat is referred
to in revelations as the binding of Satan and age of
Peace after the tribulation. One must search the
roots of the scriptures and make the vital connection
between Jews and Christians. This is the deception of
the Catholics, who hate the jews and aim to severe the
link between Judiasm and Christianity. All the icons
of Christians are Jews even St. Paul so we must not
hate them.
Ahavah Achad
============================================================
Very well thought out Carl, your research is very good. I like what your insight into Jezebel, the restoration and the calendar and your affirmation of the trinity and conclusions seem sound. I do believe that the restoration has begun and is even now making progress, there is no spiritual basis to think otherwise. Those that the Lord has called to it cannot deny it, we can only obey. We cannot truly come up with any definite conclusions as to what we are discussing except that Jesus is coming, you are right in that many things are hidden but much of the veil will be lifted and this makes good dialogue. I had been under the impression that the days mentioned in Daniel 12 were literal days and correspond to within the tribulation period, you seem to have the same conclusion except in years pointing to the same time. Whatever.
As far as the Jewish calendar showing 5761 years since Adam, the Bible has it about 340 years earlier. I worked out the math years ago in Bible college and came up with the same timetable as Bishop Usher came up with in the 17th century. That puts the seventh day in this decade and the third day of Christ.
Much of what we are discussing here will appear as introductory text in the next edition of the latter rain list (now above). Thanks for your scholarship.
Your calendar predictions are good as far as I am concerned because it is the desire to come to the truth through Bible prophecy. The Bible does give us these clues. Working together, we must work in dialectic, that is agreeing to put aside that which may be false and narrow things down more. That means that we are subject to each other in the Lord. I would suggest that you see these things as types rather than direct fulfillments, I think you are doing that. The abomination of desolation will point us to future fulfillments if we use the things that you say here, for example, as clues to what is to come.
And not all Catholics hate Jews, we must come to the truth that there a hateful Catholics and there are hateful Protestants. There are also good people in all the churches. God knows who they are.
Any more comments? I would suggest that you join the Yahoo forum where these things are discussed openly. Just click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/latter_rain_list and join.
Jay
Jay,
Sincerely and humbly, and
=============================================================
Hi Shad,
I must admit that I seem to be leaning to a "pre-posterous" position also, great terminology. I do see a pre-wrath and pre-millennial. The thing I cannot figure out is why Gog and Magog will again gather at the end of the millennial period, or am I missing something? I don't know, maybe we are all wrong. I do think that we will find out soon though.
Jay
=============================================================
Hi JAY,
=============================================================
Hi Again Shad,
[These comments were placed above in the intro text]
=============================================================
Hi Jay,
Please pray for me and over 50 laymen and a dozen preachers who will
be witnessing in Brazil June 27 to July 17. This will be my
eighteenth mission to Brazil plus a dozen other missions to
other nations. The Lord has always blessed with thousands of
people saved. Praise the Lord!!
Oh yes, I am inclined to believe that the last days began at the
resurrection of our Lord and we are still living in them and
they will continue until God decides they are over. I praise
the Lord that He is in control. Amen and Amen!!
Because of Him,
[Mark 4:26-29].---'And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man
should cast seed into the ground ; and should sleep, and rise night and
day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the
earth bringeth forth fruit of herself ; first the blade, then the ear,
after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought
forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is
come.'
In the eyes of our Lord the Kingdom of Nature was one great miracle of
the Kingdom of Grace, and the means by which in the providence of God
man was provided with food for the body told also of the means by which
human lives came to their spiritual harvest. The sower is in alliance
with the silent, cryptic forces of life. He casts in the seed, and by
and bye he gathers the harvest ; but in the meantime he trusts that
which no man has ever explained---the mystery of life. Behind all his
effort there lies that which he cannot do, and cannot even understand.
He knows enough to teach him a quiet hope through many signless days. He
is wise enough to read the meaning of the first faint film of green
softly drawn over the brown earth. He moves with hope and confidence in
his kingdom because, having done his small but essential duty, he knows
how vast and sure are those silent forces with which that duty has
linked him. So, said the Master, is it with the Kingdom of God.
As our Lord compares the Kingdom to a corn of wheat which is cast into
the ground, we will see how that seed grows.
In the first place, it does grow. Its nature is to grow ; and though bad
weather may keep it back for a while, it will grow if it gets into the
soil, and that silently and steadily. The farmer sleeps, and does his
day's work, and sleeps again ; but the seed is growing all the while.
How it grows he cannot tell, for life is a mystery, and science has not
found out the secret even of a grass like that.
The seed is not foreign to the soil, it is akin to it : the one is
preordained, preadapted, to the other. Till the seed is planted it is a
mere inert possibility ; even if it germinates it can come to nothing.
Till it receives the seed the soil, too, is, for purposes of growth,
nothing better than a possibility : its forces lie dormant, its
potencies are hidden, they cannot assert themselves. But bring the two
together, under proper conditions, and with due preparation, and a
miracle takes place---as true a miracle as though one should rise from
the grave. The dead earth lives ; the sleeping seed quickens ; the two
react on each other, and need each other, and cannot come to anything
except in twinship with each other ; and behold, in due time the golden
grain 'full in the ear.'
In the next place, the order of growth is fixed. Everything in its own
time and order. The seed is buried in the earth, and who knows whether
it will survive or nor? Gradually, however, the first green shoot makes
its way through the hindering soil ; then the ear, and then the full
grain. Unhurried yet certain, the hidden vitality evolves through its
full round of development.
Then, again, the seed grows by taking into itself particles of matter.
It feeds on the earth below, and drinks the water of the rain of heaven
from above ; and without that water it could take up nothing from the
soil. Earth and heaven join to feed it ; but the power of life which
turns the soil and the rain into leaves and stem and fruit baffles al
our efforts to discover it.
There is yet another point, which our Lord does not mention here, though
He does elsewhere. Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die,
it abideth alone : but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. And St.
Paul : 'That which thou sawest is not quickened, except it die' ; and
then he reminds us that what rises from the earth is not the seed we
sow, but a plant whose glory we could not have discovered from the seed.
Such a body God has given it, according to its kind.
To this growth our Lord likens the Kingdom of Heaven. Let us trace the
growth, then, of the Kingdom in the world.
First, it does grow. It is like the flowing tide : a wave or two may not
tell you much, but presently you will see it washing higher up the
rocks. If the world is far enough yet from being genuinely Christian, it
has without question grown more so from age to age. There is more good
in it no0w, and generally good of a higher tone and with a greater
influence.
Then, again, it grows in order ; first the commands of a law, then the
freedom of a gospel ; first crude religious ideas, then the wider and
worthier thoughts we learn by comparing texts with each other, with the
general drift of Scripture, and with God's other words in science and
history, in life and conscience.
Again, the Kingdom grows silently, like the corn. It comes not in the
noise of war and strife, as if the wrath of man could work the
righteousness of God ; nor in the debates of parliaments and Church
councils, in the drawing up of laws and creeds and ordering of rites and
ceremonies, as if it were a work of human wisdom. It comes---it is ever
coming---whenever God gives us a loftier view of truth, a worthier idea
of duty, a nobler work of service to our fellow-men. It come4s, but no
man knoweth how it comes, for life is always a mystery.
And again, it grows like the corn by feeding on things of the earth. It
is the Kingdom, not the visible Church, which takes into itself the
kingdoms of men, their laws and societies, and grows by transforming
them : yet it would have no power to transform them if it were not also
drinking water of that rain of heaven which makes the wilderness to
rejoice, and its desert places to flourish like the garden of the Lord.
'The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh and wither it goeth : so is every
one that is born of the Spirit.' Again, the Kingdom of God in our own
harts is like the corn.
It grows. Its nature is to grow, and grow it will in every good and
faithful heart. But all things in order, like the corn. The warfare of
life must come before the crown of victory, the bitterness of repentance
before the joys of love Divine, the childlike enthusiasms of the new
believer before the graces of the ripened man of God. Our Leader learned
obedience from things He suffered, and we must let patience have her
perfect work before we can enter into the royal rest of God.
Again, the Kingdom grows in silence. It comes not in the heroic moments
of life, but in the weary times of patient work and waiting ; not in the
rioting of spiritual excess, but in the quiet round of common duties,
for these are the sacrifices with which God is well pleased. We sleep,
and rise night and day, and the seed grows up, we know not how. The
unbidden thought of god which stir our hearts come to us like strangers
from another world. The life within us is no conquest of our own, but
the gift of God in Jesus Chris our Lord. How it grows is more than we
know : all that we can do is to cherish it with reverent and loving
care.
Yet again, the Kingdom grows by taking up the things of earth---our
relations and friends, our business and amusements, and the hopes and
fears, and cares and joys that come from them. The richer our earthly
life in these things, the richer the material for our heavenly life to
feed upon.
In Christ, Timothy.
Maranatha
Great word Timothy,
Also on the subject of the Kingdom, except the future millennial kingdom, I have been having a short discussion with Shad Rue on the millennial kingdom which poses the question of Gog and Magog at the end of the thousand year period. It is something that I just cannot figure out according to my present understanding. I really has been one of the primary reasons that I think that millennial positions should not divide us. If I cannot come up with definite conclusions on things, I sure cannot fault any one else.
Anyway it is a question that I thought I would propose to you all in the hopes that you might have some insight into this. It is the question of Gog and Magog being allowed to make war on the nations and satan is to come out of the pit to deceive us again after we have already (so we think?) entered a time of peace where nation will no longer rise up against nation any more. No biggie, just makes no sense to me.
I just sent him the last (moved to text above in the intro), so what is your take on Gog and Magog?
Jay
Micah and the last days.
Hi Jay and list,
I know you are focusing more on Gog and Magog but I noticed you are also
talking about the events that occur during the Rev. 20 "millennial" reign of
peace. You asked what Micah 4:1-4 does to our understanding of the last days
and its application to Rev. 20. So, the subject I wanted to discuss was
Micah 4:1-4.
Starting with the first few words: Micah 4:1 "But in the last days" - From
the birth, death, resurrection of Jesus and the ability to receive the Holy
Spirit we entered into the last days. In Acts 2:17 we are given a definition
of the last days. "And it shall come in the last days, saith God, I will
pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream
dreams." The Spirit is poured out and received by us when we accept Jesus as
Lord and Savior of our lives. A good example of prophesy existing from this
period of time onward would be in Rev. 2:20 where there was allowed a false
prophetess to teach. Obviously prophecy is an accepted occurrence in the
Thyatira church in the days of John that is why he is cautioning us to know
the true from the false. We recognize that the Thyatira church stands also
symbolically as a representation of churches that will exhibit specific
physical traits throughout all church history. Micah's use of the words
"last days" describes the environment we live in today.
I have come to an understanding that Rev. 21 is not only a future home for us
but a dwelling place - an environment that can exist within us today. Rev 21
tells us that the temple of God is made up not with actual physical elements
from the world, but from the lives of those who are filled with the Holy
Spirit. Made up of the precious stones and we are those precious stones. We
are the material God uses to form the living temple. The temple is alive
because God is alive. The Holy Spirit within us is alive and will not die -
just changed into another form of God's glory.
So if we take the understanding that the last days are now, that we are
stones of the living temple that exist today, and apply it to the Micah
passages I think personally it is easy to understand what these scriptures
are saying. Micah 4:2 He will teach us His ways" We are filled with the
presence of God and He promises that He will teach us and lead us into all
truth. 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth
in you, and ye need not that any man teach you." As we now abide in Him it
is easy to discern the words that reflect who Jesus is and His truth and the
words that describe the characteristics and personality of the world and the
darkness that covers the earth.
Micah 4:3 "and they shall beat their swords into plowshares." The weapons
that God now calls us to use are not physical but they are powerful. It is
the Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. God's word is quick, and
powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, Heb. 4:12. It has become
part of our Christian armor, "and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word
of God" Eph. 6:17. So, we are beating the world's swords into plowshares
when we substitute the physical for the Spiritual.
Micah 4:4 "But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig
tree." - "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman," John 15:1.
Every one who now belongs to Jesus not only sits under the vine but has
become part of the vine "I am the vine, ye are the branches," John 15:5.
To me Micah is not symbolic for Rev. 20 but a description of our walk with
the Lord today.
In Rev. 20, after 1,000 years of freedom from the lies of Satan, God allows
him to once more go out and deceive the nations. Why He uses Gog and Magog
to gather those not truly dependent on Jesus for their lives, to gather them
for battle, is a sad concept for me to accept. Is it because there still
exist some upon the earth who have not really given their lives completely to
Jesus and they will be exposed? Even though the evil one is not here to
tempt us, is it a possibility that the flesh was still allowed to dwell upon
the earth and allowed to influence our minds? And, for some that was enough
temptation to not give their lives completely into the hands of God?
Hopefully, someone will have some answers regarding what is happening and why
regarding this chapter.
Blessings,
My understanding of that, is ...those are the ones that are born during that
1000 year reign. They will have to make a choice.
Sharolyn
Hi Sharolyn, Good to hear from you. I have seen this to be the understanding of others also. People being born during this time, I don't know if it is supported by scripture but then there are so many prophecies that may or may not have anything to do with the millennial period that it is hard for me (or anyone?) to harmonize them. Many would say that it is not important either but the time is short and I think that discussing these things are perfectly right on time. Did I say perfect? The perfect is yet to come but one thing that I do know is that through His Holy Spirit, Jesus will have us bring it about. It is up to us to have Him do it through us, if that makes any sense. Being available.
By this time at the beginning of the millennium there has been one resurrection, at the end of the millennium is another, the general resurrection. The first resurrection are those that will reign with Christ for a thousand years, we are told that the second death has no power over them. We have also been told that the first resurrection may be resurrected in Christ to eternal life in our bodies now. Anyway, if the second death has no power, then it does make sense that the earth will be repopulated with new children like you say here to be tempted by the devil. Still this does not explain how the nations that will war no more are coming together for war.
Maybe this is a waste of time, just too confusing.
Does anyone have any comments or should we start discussing something else. I think the Jezebel dialogue was very good. God is stirring that topic up in a lot of people. I still think that the man of sin should be discussed, if not now, at least tabled.
Jay
Jay, I found the second death to be a really difficult concept to
understand. You are right that in Rev. 20:6 God says that "he that
hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no
power." Then in Rev. 20:14 He says "And death and hell were cast
into the lake of fire". This is the "second death". We are also
told that there will be a number "as the sand of the sea" Rev. 20:8,
who will be deceived by Satan after he is released from the thousand
year bottomless pit. And that they would be devoured by the fire that
comes down from God. Would it make sense that instead of being cast
into the "lake of fire" that their punishment would be to be devoured
by the "fire that comes down from God"? So they in fact wouldn't be
involved in the second death. But a different type of death? Sounds
too simple.
I had been playing around with the idea that just because Satan was
bound 1,000 years that didn't mean the flesh had been bound. And even
though they were holy that didn't stop the fact that the flesh
couldn't give birth to flesh. That sin couldn't be born into this
environment. Similiar to our lives in Christ, we are Holy unto the
Lord because we are covered in the blood of Jesus - filled with the
Holy Spirit, but we still have the flesh to fight - to crucify. I
know that in Gal. 5:24 "They that are Christ's have crucified the
flesh". But as you continue on in Gal. after so much teaching on the
power of the spirit, we read that "we shall reap, if we faint not."
So is there a possibility that the Rev. 20 group - even though they
are holy unto the Lord, that they too will need to "faint not?"
I know people have played around with the idea that there were those
who were born during this time period and they would be the ones who
would be deceived by Satan. And that is as good a possibility as
any. It would seem more logical then that it was the flesh in
operation then. Because Satan is bound so flesh is what is causing
them to not trust in the Lord. So does this mean that the priests of
God are not subject to the power of the flesh?
Blessings,
I think the reason that these things are so difficult to understand is that much of what we have been taught on these subjects have not been thought out enough. As we discuss more and more, we can understand but it is still the idea that the fulfillments are the best interpreter and that takes time. Still, we can get that revelatory knowledge that unfold these mysteries but to try to explain them to others is impossible without the same revelation given to all of us in the same way. And it has not been the case.
We can accept the Bible message as being true and infallible but then if our understanding of the Bible is faulty, then so is our interpretation. If we would continue with this, and I hope that it is the Lord's will that He does unfold some of these mysteries to us, then it must be in the attitude of prayer, humility and a desire to get something done. Since none of us have all the answers, I know that I don't, we need more discussion to bring up some concrete ideas based upon what the bible teaches and not from our own pet eschatological opinions that has gotten us all mixed up in the first place. What's worse is keeping anything to ourselves when we may be all blessed by some input, right or wrong. We do not have to be absolutely right to come up with the truth, dialectic is putting away with what is false one by one until we come up with the truth and that will not happen until all voices are heard and we are humble enough to admit what is false. We are in a unique situation of being able to have the desire to know and listen to the Lord enough to realize that we are gifted in these areas of revelation knowledge. So as for me, I am going to take these questions to the Lord. I have already admitted my ignorance.
You are absolutely right Arlette, and I know that God gives you the desire to seek out these things, He speaks to you through His Spirit and through His word and you have the courage to share with us. Me too, but if this discussion is to produce fruit and be the type of dialogue that is life-changing and profound and revelatory ground-breaking, there has to be a lot more enthusiasm and interest in exactly where it is that we are going with it. There are a lot of people that bask in the light for a season and then go on to business as usual as if we are nothing. There are a lot of people that have a part of the discussions until their own pet bias is challenged and then they back off as if they are punishing us with their silence. It is childishness for sure but then if we are perfect, we would already know it all but we aren't, so we need to all deal with it. If we are to be the people of God that come together in love and unity like we are supposed to be, we could move in a mighty way. My part in the discussion will continue regardless because I know that God has anointed a ministry that is more interested in His truth than our own. That's why when people's enthusiasm goes cold, there are always new ears that hear and voices for God to speak through that come and contribute. Pride is a real killer but if we could just do our best to put it away and get down to some serious business, we could get a lot of work done for the kingdom.
Jay
Rev. 14:8
Hi Jay,
I remember in the biographies of some of the mystics that they took up a vow
of poverty - would they be scorned by the Jabez crowd? I don't remember
reading of to many prophets that were wealthy and comfortable. So when we go
off in this direction aren't we crucifying the prophets all over again?
When I first entered the prophetic world - 9 months ago - at Vineyard, it
seemed so many people wanted to be prophetic. They had classes on it. But I
think do they really know what it means to be prophetic? It doesn't mean
wealth, and recognition or popularity. Probably just the opposite. If we
are to look at the real prophets in the Bible they were not really loved by
the masses. Tolerated was more the attitude. But then only when they told
them what they wanted to hear. I know the prophets in the New Testament had
a larger group to support them, but still they suffered. To say anything
else just wouldn't be the truth.
That is why I used to grieve for you - I thought do you know what you are
doing? Do you want to endure suffering? But then I realized that is what I
have been doing for 2yrs. 9 mo. so why should I tell someone else not to do
that?
That leads back to church - God still has given me no idea where He wants me
- but I know I will go - just so I can persecute them (by loving them) and
they can persecute me. And Jay you may think I am kidding, but I'm not. The
routine is this, coveting, hatred, and all kinds of evil will be exposed, but
I will keep sharing the truth and love of God and not listen to anything that
isn't the truth. Really hard job, but I Know that is what He is calling me
to do. So what is it the word says, we carry around in ourselves the stripes
that Jesus bore. This is the truth. But a love so unbelievable that you
feel that you have to be with Him without the flesh interfering.
I am attaching something from Marsha, it sounds like she is sensing something
is changing - off kilter also.
SMALL STRAWS IN A SOFT WIND
May 25, 2001: Watchmen on the wall, awaken! You have given
into slumber. You have allowed the enemy to creep in
unnoticed, for you have been distracted by many things.
Shake yourselves awake! Listen for the sounds of invasion;
watch for the slightest movements that disturb your
present peace; sniff the wind for impending danger. For
truly, I tell you the enemy is lurking, waiting and
watching for opportunities to invade by catching you off
guard. This is no time to be complacent, and this is no
time to fight from a position of dread. Rise up with a
penetrating sense of victory. Sound the alarm; blow the
trumpet on My holy hill.
May 25, 2001
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
I really enjoyed reading your article on Jezebel. While reading this,
the Lord drew my attention to Rev 2:21,22:
NB, Canada
Abomination of Desolation 586BC(destruction of the
temple) + times, a time and a half time 1260 days
(revelation 12) + 1335 days = 586BC + 2595 years =
2009AD??? Daniel 12 is pointing us to the 5th seal of
revelation.
C. Daley
Love is One
Carl
I've been enjoying your e-mails. They seem to be fair
and unbiased. I agree that the doctrine of last things
should not determine fellowship. Personally I lean
toward a pre-wrath rapture with believers going through
the tribulation but will not, thank God, experience the
wrath of God. So I am (Pre -- Posterous) i.e. Pre-
millennial but post tribulation. I think the Lord will come
sometime during - close to the middle -- of the last 3 and
one half years of the seven year period usually called the
tribulation. I think the last one and one-half years will be
the time when God pours out his wrath after the rapture.
There are some who call the view preposterous. Although
relatively few hold to this view, I believe if the Lord tarries
another 50 years, and God's people continue to
seriously study the Word of God, this will be the prevailing
view of the Christian world.
Thanks for listening.
Shad Rue
shad@amaonline.com
Thanks for your response. I'm inclined to believe
that Gog and Magog will be consumed in the
fire of God's wrath at the end of the millennial reign
after the release of Satan who also will be cast
into the lake of fire. Unger's Bible dictionary has
a good discussion of this under Gog.
Because of Him,
Shad
Thanks for your reply. I certainly understand the confusion
over last things. I understand from Rev. 21 and 22 that there
will be a new heaven and a new earth after many of the things
that you mentioned. I am so glad our Lord is in control. For
now, let's tell the world about Jesus and what we know for sure
about Him.
Shad
Arlette
ArletteAnd there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
woke up this morning and started studying more of Rev. to try to understand
chapter 20. Didn't make it past 14:8 before I started crying so much I had
to stop reading. I keep reading how the book of Jabez is so popular, and I
think why are people substituting a lie for the truth of God? Is their
spiritual walk so empty that they have to turn to the flesh to find
fulfillment? I always think that in many scriptures you have a physical
reality of what is going to happen or has happened, but then you also have
the personal spiritual application. When we read Rev. 14:8, I think, why are
people allowing Babylon into their lives, don't they know what happens when
this is allowed to enter into their lives?
Arlette
Words from the Lord to Marsha Burns Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
Issue Oriented Discussion Newsletter
Index | Search This Site | Aristide.Org | The Latter Rain | Babylon the Great | The Kingdom | The Nicolaitans | Jezebel
The Baptism With the Holy Ghost | The Grand Delusion | World Trade Org | Liberation Theology | Jay Atkinson | Alphabetical Index