Rapture Discussion

February 7, 2000

Hi all,

Well we are getting more agreement against a pre-trib rapture than I thought we would. It is not scriptural and it is not in the prophetic. Not much more said about whether all Christians are saints or not so I thought I would offer a word. Please understand that I do not have all the answers on this subject to speak as an authority. Sanctification suggests the idea of separation. In the broad sense of the word, we are all saints or holy ones because we are separated from non-Christians in that we are saved. One issue that we briefly discussed was on the several resurrections. The Bible teaches that the we (the saints) will not all sleep but be translated in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump. I Cor. 15:52. Most of us think that our loved ones that died in the Lord are in heaven now. They are not awaiting judgment but are in eternity. I believe that too but I also believe in a future resurrection that will be in judgment. Now if those that having accepted Christ are not judged and those that have not rejected the Lord are judged already, then where lies the judgment. I am admitting my confusion on this unless I understand that there are differing degrees of ones walk with the Lord and that many will be numbered with the transgressors and will not be raised to judgment until the future.

Now I understand that those raised in the twinkling of an eye are at the last trump but God reckons time differently in eternity than we do. There is no past or future in heaven, only the eternal now. There is a kingdom in heaven (the eternal now) and a kingdom to come on earth in the future. There is a clear separation here. If there is a rapture, it will be only the saints that will be raptured and I do not believe all Christians are saints and I believe that those on earth during the millennium will be waiting for even another judgment while the saints are in heaven. Again, I am admitting ignorance.

Those that responded pretty much feel that there will not be a pre-trib rapture and agree that it is a dangerous error that is giving the church a false sense of security and putting them into an escapist position where they need not be concerned with the harvest and sifting to come. I have had to edit out some of these which were too long. Jesse Sellers asks some good questions that we might want to address as a group. A few of these questions I have also addressed in something that I have been working on the last few days about the two witnesses. Find that at http://latter-rain.com/eschae/twowit.htm. As far as satanic lies, Jesus is truth and any lie is from satan, that does not mean the person that speaks an error is from satan. I also once taught a pre-trib rapture that came from a lie, there must be many lies that I still hold to that I must humble myself, identify them, overcome and come to truth. Also there is a longer essay from someone that Gil submitted which has some very excellent points concerning the rapture that we might look at. It also comes with an a-millennial position that I just cannot accept which believes that the second coming occurred at Pentecost. I believe that there will come a time where the Lion will lay down with the Lamb, Jesus will rule over the nations and there will be a thousand year period which is the Sabbath rest of man.


When I received this particular letter it stirred something in me because I too had a hard time coming to this conclusion. Most Christians are being taught about the rapture and I believed in it too. Until one day when I truly wanted the truth and asked the Lord to lead me and what he showed (lack of better words) scared me. For all those who are being taught about a rapture will be left confused and what I fear most is there faith will fall because of what they expect to happen won't.

Now there was a particular scripture that Jay pointed out. It is one that many use and I was left always in a battle to what it meant, because so many times in scripture it talks about the saints suffering persecution and how is this possible if there is a rapture. The scripture that I am talking about it the one in Matthew 24:37 - 41 now I think Jay mentioned the one in 41 or at least one like it. Where two will be in field one will be taken and the other left. What I don't understand how there is so much confusion because the scripture before tells you what he is talking about and no one brings that scripture in and it is very important. It says - Starting in 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.

39 And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK them all AWAY: so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field: the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now my point is that it wasn't Noe and his family that was taken away. They were protected by God just like we will be if we believe. But the ones that were taken away were the people left. This was a very strong message to me and I hope that it will bless all of you that read it.

I feel very strongly that people need to be reached. I personally had a hard time with this because such the opposite is being preached I felt like a heretic.

So if anything I am truly thankful I am not alone.

May God bless you and keep you.

Thank you.
Alisa Youngren

Okay. A few questions to stimulate some thought, prayer, and discussion.

You say that any pastor that teaches a pre-trib rapture is teaching a "lie of Satan." Do you, therefore, believe that any pastor who honestly misunderstands the teaching of scripture in some area is teaching Satanic lies? Suppose you yourself have made an error in your teaching. You confess to having once believed (and therefore, one can presume, taught) a pre-tribulational rapture. Were you teaching a lie of Satan?

Second issue. Your contention that "not all Christians are saints." The greek word for saint is hagios, and it means holy ones. Let me call your attention to Paul's letter to the Corinthians. Here was a church in which members were engaged in all sorts of heinous sins, even incest. Yet Paul, in his salutation, does not refer to them as "sinners." He calls them saints, "holy ones." It would be better, and more accurate, to contend that not all professing Christians are possessing Christians, but the word "saint" by definition has to refer to a holy one; i.e., a true Christian.

Third item: You state that the Bride needs to be readied before the Judgment seat of Christ. The Bride has been made ready by the atoning work of Christ at the cross. To attempt to add anything else to that is to advocate a salvation by works. Here's a thought to consider regarding a pre-trib rapture. At the end of Revelation 3, after the letter to the 7 churches (which, among other things, represent 7 distinct periods in church history), the church is no more in the world. The very next verse (remembering there were no chapter and verse divisions in the original Greek)speaks of a door being open in heaven. The open door can be interpreted as implying the rapture. One final point: I think one of your respondents says the church in Sardis can be considered to be dead in Christ. There is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE to any person redeemed by the blood of Jesus as being in any spiritual sense dead. The reference to the dead in Christ rising first has to mean those who have died physically.

Yours in His service,
Dr. Jesse W. Sellers

Hi Jay

Well regarding the rapture question. I have spent a lot of time in the United States and realize that the pre trib position on this is very strong. I cannot speak for all Englishmen, but my own experience is that that doctrine is not nearly as strong outside of the USA. I think that needs to be kept in mind to provide some balance. Personally whilst I know of some, I don not personally know (over here) as far as I am aware any Christian who holds to the dispensational scheme, despite the fact that it started here with John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.. I would have to agree with you Jay that the secret 'pre trib' rapture is a delusion of Satan sent to give false hope to an already lukewarm and apostate church. Coupled with the 'easy believism' of apostate American fundamentalists and British brethren, it has sent many into delusion, presumption and false comfort. It truly is the doctrine of the foolish virgins. It is contrary to the clear teaching of scripture and of every minister and teacher sent from God from the church fathers onwards. It was unknown before the 19th century and not popularized in the United States until the early 20th century. Paul the apostle is clear that the day of Jesus' second coming will be marked by the angels pouring out judgements on the ungodly, and he plainly told Christians to look for that day, and further told them that that day (of his coming and out gathering together to meet him) will not come until the man of sin is revealed first. See 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 and 2. There is only one second coming and one last trumpet. People are not going to find copies of 'left behind' during the tribulation and get a second chance. Once the door is closed it is closed. Wrath and tribulation are not the same, and the fact is while we have not been appointed to wrath, we have been appointed to tribulation as the bible clearly says. We will meet the Lord in the air when he visibly returns. Well I could go on but I think you get my point. Take care


The question in this hour is not of if there will be a rapture, but when there will be a rapture. As some unlearned people might not know the word rapture doesn't even appear in the bible, yet they have placed a whole doctrine on this one thing. I also was raised in a church that preached that Jesus could return at any minute and just as Jay stated it was because I was embracing the traditional teachings of the church and not the word of God. I thank God that I am not under that type of ministry any more. The church going through the Tribulation is a very important doctrine and it will cause many to go to hell with the blasphemous mockings.

Now the scriptures:

Matthew 24:3-5
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 ? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:36-37
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Genesis 7:4
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

This is showing you that noe knew about the flood before it happened. People have quoted the scripture no man knows the day or the hour for years not knowing what the scripture was really saying. If you have Jesus Christ living in side of you the father is also inside of you because:

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
John 12:45
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

He is only going to come as thief upon those that aren't awaiting his return.

If you are being taught that he is coming back and that you can't know these things it is a lie straight from the pits of hell.

He is coming back after the tribulation just like he said. Not a moment before and not a moment after.


This next is an excerpt of a prophetic mailing from Doug Fortune, the day after I mailed out the rapture question. It had to do with the same issue, so is included....Jay.

Consider the PROCESS as each gift equips the saints ... apostles imparting a 'sent one' mentality, prophets imparting vision and revelatory awareness, evangelists imparting the ability to draw people to Him, pastors imparting a caring and concern for others, and teachers imparting true knowledge... all this contained within the PURPOSE of being conformed to the image of Christ and manifesting Him in the earth. PURPOSE determines our PROCESS... in other words, if I believe my PURPOSE is to just "hang on till Jesus comes back, get a few people to heaven, and hope for a rapture that I may escape this world", then my PROCESS will be very self-serving and limited. If I believe that my PURPOSE is to manifest Christ by being conformed to His likeness and advance the Kingdom having dominion in the earth, then my PROCESS will be a reflection of that PURPOSE.

Jay, you might like this conference--I'm going to try to make it to it by the 11th and 12th. I think you are right about the rapture--the pastor that is putting this on used to teach the pretrib and now finds it in error. I don't think this is one we should divide on, yet I know some places teach it as heresy to be anything but pre-trib..I know at my former church the first time it came out of the pulpit as the-way-it-was-going-to-happen, I knew something was wrong. When I talked to my Pastor about it he simply said "I base my pre-trib theology out of a book that is this thick (then he held his hands out about six inches apart) written by a guy from Dallas Theological Seminary and it is complicated." So that's all I really ever got about why it was so, and Matthew Chapter 24 written by our Lord, it was simply saying something entirely different. Dunno. Though, in my heart I know the pre-trib notion to be wrong--and even dangerous. I don't want to pick up rocks about it. Marv Rosenthal has an in-depth teaching about why the pretrib is wrong. There is so much that seems to be like this the old/young earth controversy. I just heard on the radio John MacArthur consign me and those like me that believe in an old earth to the curses of Revelation for believing as I do. God is my Lord and my God, He has promised to never leave me (and He never has)--when we take on these controversial issues and I believe we should and then stand up to our brothers and sisters in the Lord and tell them what we truly believe from the standpoint of what the Lord has shown us an then we are told that we are believing in another Jesus because we don't walk and talk the party line of mainstream evangelical Christianity well it is not worth getting shot at unless the holy Spirit is directing us to stand and give the truth. I've moved over here to eastern Oregon and haven't begun to look for a church because I don't want to go through this again. in Him jk


Dear Jay,

Like you, I also believe that the pre-trib rapture view is dangerous. You have chosen a difficult subject, but if we will not make it more complicated than it is we can reach a consensus. We could be discussing this for weeks!

Jesus made it clear in Matthew 24 that the elect would be gathered together unto Him "immediately after the tribulation of those days." 2 Thess. 2: 1-4 also reveals that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him" (also referred to as "that day" two verses later) would not happen until a great falling away and the man of sin is revealed. There are those who teach that "that day" is the Second Coming and not the Rapture. If you interpret it in its context it is plain to see that Paul was referring back to "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him" when he spoke of "that Day". The book of Daniel and Revelation together indicate that there will be a time when the antichrist makes war against, persecutes, prevails against or wears out the saints (Daniel 7: 25; Revelation 13: 7). One can conclude from this that we will still be on earth when the antichrist is revealed and for some time afterward, and that the Second Coming and the Rapture are the same.

Concerning pinpointing when the rapture will take place (pre, mid, or post) note the following: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and with great glory" (Matthew 24: 29, 30; See rest of chapter ). This passage corresponds with Revelation 6: 12-15: "And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains."

These events are to happen immediately after "the tribulation of those days." In Revelation 7: 9, 13, 14 John saw great multitude in Heaven who were identified as being those who came out of great tribulation. It would appear that in Revelation 6, sometime after the sixth seal is opened, the Church is in Heaven (literally). One could safely conclude that we ( the Church) will see the sun darkened, and the moon not give her light, and the stars fall from heaven, and people frantically trying to save their lives, etc. After this point, when the Lord comes, we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. I would call it a pre-wrath rapture of the Church. Well, that's enough for now.


Gary P.


The rapture doctrine is certainly one that will raise some discussion. I could write a book about what the Lord has revealed to me on this subject in the last 3 years. I will share some basic thoughts with you and the group. (you may want to forward it to the group as an attachment) All I ask is that everyone reading them, pray over them and ask the Lord to teach you as individuals, His truth. It is very important I think, to learn in your heart and not your head. That is exactly what we must get away from, our carnal minds! Let the Lord minister to your heart, your spirit, and your eyes and ears will open to the Truth of the Word. You will see the doctrines of men for what they are; lies, deceit, and twisting of the scriptures, taking them out of context, etc., for the purpose of controlling the people. God wants to bring FREEDOM to His people, not bondage!

You state that we should take a scriptural look at it, and that is indeed the case. We must look also at the true meaning of scriptures as written in the original languages, Greek and Hebrew, as most of the "translations" have glaring faults in them. We should dig into it the way the Bereans did.

Anyway, I have included what appears to be a lot of material, and I don't take credit for writing much of it myself. The majority of it has come from several other sources, which makes it easy to cut and paste. Why reinvent the wheel? But this really just scratches the surface of the truth, so if anyone who reads this has questions, please let me know and I will be happy to share with them.

In God's Grace


Rapture is a theological term used by many evangelical Christians who believe that they will be taken out of the earth before the second coming of Christ. The basis for this is out of the Gospels where one is taken and one is left as in the Days of Noah. It is important to note that the word rapture is not found here, or any where else in the Scriptures. The early church fathers NEVER preached rapture, which is different from the Second Coming of the Lord. The evangelical churches that believe in rapture teach the saint leaves the earth. But the proof is that Noah remained and the wicked were removed. John 17:15 states: "I pray NOT that you (disciples) should be taken out of the world, but that you (Father) should keep them from evil." Or consider Matthew 5 which states: "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH," or even the Lord's Prayer which states in Matthew 6: "YOUR KINGDOM COME and your will be done ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN." There are many more verses that show the saints remain, even if there is a tribulation.

There are several schools of thought concerning the book of Revelation. The historical school shows how the book of Revelation is and was completed many years ago.

The futuristic school looks for a physical antichrist, one man, a seven or at least a three and one-half year tribulation and a millennial reign of Christ. These concepts all came out of the works of Jesuits who wrote to confound and redirect Protestant ire. I won't discuss that here, but it is interesting to note that John states that the antichrist was already there in the first century!

The historical theological viewpoint is that the book of Revelation is spiritual and not literal since the actual literal fulfillment has already occurred. Secondly, the historical generally expresses the point that the numbers found in the book of Revelation and other places are allegorical or symbolical and are not for literal interpretation. The futuristic school would contend this is otherwise. While some of the futuristic school would indicate that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-20 shows a rapture as was taught by Paul, this verse has to do with Christ's second coming and not a secret rapture.

The man of sin in 2 Thessalonians is not a literal man who will appear. The word "temple" is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 3:16, where it states that your body is the "temple" of the Holy Spirit. The word in the Greek is "naos." The word in the Greek used for a physical structure such as a building is the word "heiron." The difference between these two is important.

Paul is not writing about some literal man of sin who will appear or had appeared. Paul is writing a spiritual word. The man of sin is located in a person - each of us individually. We are the Lord's temple. Within us is the fallen adamic nature, it is dead (Romans 6:1-10), The man of sin is not some literal person who leads us away like a Pied Piper, but the man of sin is the lustful carnal mind, the adamic man, who is at enmity with God. The man of sin is the fallen nature within the person.

We do not have to look very far to find the man of sin. But it is far easier to call someone else the man of sin because then you or I do not have to deal with the man of sin within ourselves. Religion keeps the person from dealing with the real problem - self. Religion offers solutions that make the adamic man feel good - do good things, so many Hail Mary's, evangelism outreach, speaking in tongues, etc. Christianity, true Christianity, deals with the removal of the man of sin in the person by identification with Christ and making God the God of the temple of God.

Many, many churches, teach Passover (salvation), fewer teach Pentecost (baptism of the Spirit). They do not however, teach the feast of Tabernacles which is the third feast that is experiential. If they did, they would not preach the doctrine of rapture. Before one can experience the third feast, certain doctrines, which are not true, have to be removed from the nature of the person. One of these is rapture. Let's look at the scriptures.

"But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ... and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one will be left." Matthew 24:37, 39, 40 see also Luke 17:26-37
These verses are often used to teach the rapture. There are five premises in these Scriptures. (1) The flood came as a surprise to the unsaved. (2) The righteous were prepared. (3) The flood destroyed the wicked. (4) The saints were protected. (5) The saints inherited the earth. Theologians agree on points 1-4, but theologians forget that Noah never left the earth, but rather inherited the earth.

The rapture teaches that the saint is removed from the earth and is protected in a literal heaven, not in the physical sky (heavens). But in the days of Noah, we find that the Unrighteous were removed or "taken." Noah was protected but REMAINED on the earth. The Noahic story is supported in other Scriptures also. 1 Corinthians 6:9 states: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God?" God always removes the unrighteous.

In Matthew 13: 24-30 we find the parable of the wheat and the tares. Theologians agree that the wheat represent the saints and the tares the unsaved. Who is removed in the parable? The unrighteous, the tares are removed. The wheat remains. Scripture consistently reveals that the righteous remain and the unrighteous, the tares are removed. Look at the words of Jesus Himself as the ultimate authority. See what He prayed to the Father in John 17:15.

Our purpose is not to be taken out but to be victorious in the trial.

The three men in the fiery furnace went through the fire not tainted of smoke. Noah went through the flood untouched by the waters. Consider the Scripture found in Revelation 21:7 which reads:" He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." One does not overcome by escaping!

It is important to note that the Lord appeared in judgment in Noah's day. He Himself did not appear, but rather was manifested in judgment. Keep this thought in mind as you begin to see how Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Lord appeared in judgment to "that generation." Some would say that this chapter relates to the "end-time" and must assuredly speak to us this day. Let me address that question. As mentioned before there are many comings of the Lord and different words are used. The Greek word "coming" in the KJV in Matthew 24:37 is "parousia." This means that the Lord is near to, co-existent with, or presence is felt.

Consider these interesting facts. First, Matthew 24 was written to the generation of Jesus' day. In verse 34 Jesus mentions "this generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.." He speaks of the generation of Jews that condemned Him to death and rejected the Father, the Son and the testimony of the Holy Spirit in Stephen. Having rejected the Godhead's manifestation, they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit and their salvation was cut off for an age (Matthew 12:31-32).

Even more so we should consider Jesus. He is our pattern to follow. Peter writes in 1Peter 2:21 "To this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow in His steps." Jesus never escaped anything. The walk of faith cost Him His life. Our walk too is not to escape trials and tribulations, but rather to be an example of an overcoming life through the blood of Christ. Then Peter himself proclaims in Acts 2, that the "last days" were taking place at that time! ("But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:")

What about I Thessalonians 4:15-17? I do not consider these rapture verses but truly a second coming verse. Nowhere do you find anyone going to heaven. The Greek word "apantesis" is translated "to meet." In ancient times it was a word used in conjunction with a party of people who go out and meet an important person. Today it would be used as if you went to the airport to meet a person and bring him back to your house. This verb implies the saints meeting Christ and escorting Him back to the earth to set up His kingdom.

There are three other locations in Scripture that use this word "meet," and each time the word is used to greet and return. Matthew 25:1,6 speaks of the ten virgins who went forth to "meet" the bridegroom and return to the party. John 12:13 speaks of Jesus entering Jerusalem where people "took branches of palm trees and went forth to meet Him." Then in Acts 28:15 Paul writes "they came to meet us as far as Appii forum..." Saints came and led him back into the city (about 43 miles). The information on "meet" has been supplied by Stephen Jones', The Rapture of the Wicked.

It is easy to understand when we say Adam fell or the Fall of Adam that we do not mean he literally fell out of a tree or he literally fell off a building. The fall spoken of here is spiritual, not literal. So it is with the famous "catching up" verse. The catching up is not a literal but a spiritual catching up, even as Adam's fall was a spiritual fall not a literal fall.

The word "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4 is the Greek word "harpazo" which means "seize" or "to take to oneself." 2 Corinthians 12:2-3 Paul writes about being caught up (Greek=harpazo). He clearly mentions that it was a SPIRITUAL experience. He did not know whether it was in or out of the body - BUT THE BODY REMAINED WHERE IT WAS! The catching up WAS NOT LITERAL. Matthew 11:12 and 13:19 both use harpazo to mean that there was a SPIRITUAL action where the kingdom was "taken by force." This is not a literal action because the word of God, which is "taken away" out of a person's heart, is also spiritual. Twelve out of 13 times (harpazo is used 13 times in the New Testament) harpazo means a spiritual event. Only one time was it used with Philip and then he was transported to another location, not translated or removed from the earth.

Another question is when will Jesus come? A better way to phrase that is when did He come, if you understand the Greek……… When did Jesus come? At Pentecost. The Greek word for spirit is "pneuma." It is the same word that is used in the book of Acts used as "wind." Jesus came and empowered the disciples. But He did more than that. Just as salvation (the feast of Passover, 1 Corinthians 5:8) is experiential, so also is Pentecost. These men had placed within their own vessel the "presence" or the "coming" of the Lord. (see the Greek word parousia)

His coming is in His saints. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that He will be glorified "IN His saints." John 14:20 states that He is IN us. That is how He is glorified -by His "coming," His "presence" in us. There is no doubt of this for Revelation 21:3 states that "...the tabernacle of God is with men and He shall dwell (Greek: be at home, reside in,) with them."

Because of traditional religious teaching which emphasizes external concepts of Christianity, many Christians have not appropriated the truth of Him who lives within. Thus, they have difficulty with delineation of the truths found in the scriptures. As an example, most saints mix up "IN His saints" and "WITH His saints" as being synonymous and both dealing with a "second" coming. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Perhaps to radically portray the coming of Christ, we should consider some verses, which show a coming of Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4 reveals Christ coming as a "shout." Jude 14 He comes with His saints. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 He comes in His saints. Matthew 16:27 states He comes with angels. Have you considered His coming as the Morning Star arising in your heart (1 Peter)? In Revelation He comes as the white horse. Matthew has the Son of Man appearing as lightning. THE COMINGS OF THE LORD ARE THE MANIFESTATIONS OF HIS PRESENCE - whether it be the whirlwind that Elijah saw, the donkey that Balaam heard speak or the angels that visited Abraham. I don't have time to discuss it here, but it would be very beneficial to study the Greek words apocalypse, phaneroo and epiphany. These all talk about manifestations of the Lord. In nearly every translation they are translated incorrectly or give a different meaning/impression than that of the original Greek text. Parousia, means the presence. You have experienced that in your walk with God when you know He is with you. The apocalypse (revelation) is the unveiling to you that He has come within you, much to your surprise and chagrin at times. Then there is the phaneroo (to manifest or make known) or the ability for others to see Christ as you which many times leads the person unto salvation, a personal encounter with God. But the epiphany ('glorious appearing) is the out-raying of the Lord, even as He was transfigured before the disciples.

Now, in reference to the word "clouds" which is used in first Thessalonians 4:17 there is some important information. Let me first quote Jude 12: "These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves; they are clouds without water..." This is the same (Greek) word used in Thessalonians. Jude refers to PEOPLE as clouds!

Hebrews 12:1 states we are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.." This word "witnesses" in the Greek means: martyr, record, witness. The witnesses are people. Thus, when Paul is referring to "the cloud of witnesses," he is talking about people. The word "cloud" within the context of Thessalonians has a spiritual meaning. The descent of the Lord in Jesus came when on the mount, His inner nature was expressed through his outer appearance. He descended from the realm He was living in, a spiritual place, and manifested the life of the eternal on the outer man. The descent of the Lord will be from your spiritual place, heaven, which is in you and will be made manifest out of you.

The descent of the Lord is from heaven, and the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven (Revelation 21:11). But this verse clearly states that the New Jerusalem is the bride, the wife of God (Revelation 21:9). It is not a literal city. It is a spiritual realm.

This is the truth of being spiritually "caught up" while still walking physically on the earth. The rapture is not a literal, physical catching away but an experience that is internal. Just as Paul's was. It is a place, a realm, in which the person dwells.

The catching up is a return to the spiritual place and relationship that Adam had before the fall. He fell from the location, not literally but spiritually. He lost the relationship with the Lord. Jesus broke down the partition so that we might again have access to the Father. We are ascending in Him. The third experience which follows Pentecost and Passover provides the means to live above the battles on the earth. Christ in you is your deliverance. Not just having Him within in the Passover experience nor in the Pentecostal but in the Tabernacles experience. Many evangelicals will speak of the "saving" experience. Some will speak of the "baptism of the Spirit" (speaking in tongues etc). You must have the two experiences to experience the third. This is the catching up - 2 Corinthians 12:2.

Jesus stated that the kingdom of God is within (Luke 17:21). He also called Peter "Satan" at one time, meaning that the kingdom of the world is found within also Spirituality causes truth to be seen in the natural and by that is meant within the individual person. The man of sin is found within. The man of God is manifested from within the vessel even as the Father was manifested through Jesus at the Mount of Transfiguration. Both the historical and futuristic schools of theology are failures. Each lacks discernment of the real truth. They fail because the individual is not held accountable and natural interpretations are given to spiritual truths. The real truth lies within the individual. As long as theology is externalized, the accountability of the individual is absent. As long as theology points to someone else's actions rather than the individual's actions, it fails to hold the individual accountable. Corruption in the world is a horrible thing. Corruption in government comes from corruption in the people, and corruption in the people comes from corruption in the family, and corruption in the family comes from corruption in the parents, and corruption in the parents comes from a corrupt man or woman - individual responsibility.

Depending on your point of view, the Second Coming has already occurred (historical theology) or is to occur (futuristic theology). The man of sin has already come (historical school) or is to come (futuristic school). Some say there is no rapture (historical school) others believe there is a secret rapture (futuristic school).

The failure of both schools is that the Christian becomes so caught up in the leaving of this literal earth that living the crucified life here is not done. By crucified life I do not mean physical hardships, mental duress etc. I do mean the removal of the man of sin in oneself and the revelation of the Son. That is true evangelism. People came to Jesus because He revealed what they longed for and did not have. Dealing with Revelation 1:1 first, we see that the whole book of Revelation is actually a revelation of the Lord - not a revelation of the antichrist, the dragon etc. Yet, these things are mentioned along with the lake of fire, manchild etc. If all those "evil" things are part of the revelation of the Lord, how could it be so? As the Lord ascends in a people, His saints, He causes all the corruption in them to come forth and be dealt with. Every facet of your life that is not in alignment with the Lord's nature will be dealt with. As each facet of your carnal nature is revealed - whether it be religious, carnal or fleshly lusts - the Lord in you removes it. He comes. This is His coming IN a body (see 2 Thess.. 1:10) and He becomes greater and greater in you.

The world groans for the manifestation of the sons of God - Romans 8:19. These are those who have been conformed to His image, living epistles, handwritten by the Holy Spirit. These are those who have gone deeper than the experience of salvation/Passover. These are those who have gone yet deeper than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit/Pentecost. They have entered into the ingathering/Tabernacles. Their identity is hid with God (Galatians 2:20). They have slain the dragon. He no longer resides in their heavens. He has been cast down. The man of sin has been removed because they have made their eye one. A double minded man (carnal and spiritual) is unstable in all his ways (James 1:8). Their mind is one, their eye is clear for they realize that the work of God in them has caused them to be in His image.

The catching up to be with the Lord is a spiritual experience that can occur during the lifetime of the individual. True, Paul and the others were writing about literal things which would occur. But more than that Paul was writing a spiritual word. A literal interpretation, a natural fulfillment was not what Paul was concerned about. This was his concern: "My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you." Galatians 4:18

The concern of this ministry is that religion has caused division among the saints based upon dogma that has nothing to do with the Christian life. When the real focus should be found in the development of the nature of our Lord within the person. At least the historical school considers things "done" and then allows the saint to focus on developing his/her personal walk and revelation of the Lord within. The futuristic school is an escape mentality that puts off until the future the full development of the revelation of the Lord in a person! God speaks daily to those who hear. God is raising up some "sons" (little "s") of God. These are people who are willing to remove their false theologies, their idols, precluded ideas, to worship the unknown God (Acts 17:23) - the god the religious man does not know.

There will not be a "rapture." As one comes into a revelation of the Father's heart,(through the study of the Word, prayer, the prophetic, etc.,) and starts to see the very beginning of the plans He has for His creation, this will begin to become evident.


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