The Seal of God

We do not need to blow Calvinists out of the water; we need to get them onto the boat through the fire of purification. Love does not say there is no fire, love warns of the fire. As Jesus pours His spirit upon all flesh, He has the final say in the church. The apostolic message is the same, humble yourselves and repent to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pride in one's own false doctrine keeps those that are lost from taking that step of faith and coming to the truth. Too many come to the altar, make an intellectual decision to follow Christ and then proceed in their own power to repent thinking that God has already forgiven them. It is a whitewash and without the power of the Holy Spirit according to sound doctrine, the false doctrine and legalism will continue.

God's teaching is clear and not of man, we must be baptized in water and the Spirit. To enter into New Jerusalem, we attend three feasts in the Christian experience, the Passover, which is fulfilled in the cross, Pentecost, which is fulfilled in the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and the feast of Tabernacles. The feast of Tabernacles begins with the blowing of trumpets. The trumpets are sounding an alarm today, many are called to action bringing fear to others. This is where we are now, dressing the planted fields before the harvest. Soon church, soon. You cannot fool God, He knows who are His and will uproot all the weeds.

God's people who are still in Babylon are part of a kingdom that has been taken by force. It takes a unity of the spirit and a unity of the faith from those that have come out of Babylon and left the confusion behind to restore the temple. There is a time when the backbone of the beast will elect a leader that will lead the world into Armageddon. It is in the will of man, the deceitfulness of riches and the power of satan but the delusion will say that God anoints this man of war in the name of peace and prosperity and that the fire from heaven is of the Holy Spirit and God's will. It is a lie. The mark of the beast is in the forehead not upon it and the counterpart is the seal of God.

Do you truly have the seal of God? Can you recognize it in others? Every pastor and teacher, true or false, of every church in every denomination, with all their false doctrines, half truths, scriptures taken out of context and legalistic traditions, will tell you that he has the seal of God in his forehead. Do they? You better make sure.

Don't take my word for it, ask of God. Pray in the spirit and ask for discernment. If you cannot pray in the spirit, ask the Lord to lead you to one that can. Don't despise prophecy but ask for that too and if you are lacking in faith, ask for God to increase your faith. Humble yourself before Him and ask Him to forgive all your sins and ask Him to draw your loved ones as well. Ask Him to fill you with His Holy Spirit, not a sprinkling but an immersion of power, grace and glory. You want to be exalted with Jesus? Humble yourself, put away your false doctrine, resentment, jealousy and pride and start loving people around you enough to tell them the truth without hurting them. Just make sure that you know the truth yourself and not just repeating what you heard from the traditions of men and the doctrines of demons.

If you run into anyone who cannot agree with spiritual truth then find out where they are coming from. If they cannot endure sound doctrine and loving correction, then get away from them, do not let your children near them, do not allow your friends to be taught by them, ignore them, get on with kingdom business and don't look back. Jesus is coming soon; we cannot meet Him in white linen by compromising with division and false doctrine. You want to remain in Babylon out of your love for them? It's your choice but you need to fill your lamps with the oil of the Holy Ghost and join shoulder to shoulder with those that are called as the holy Bride of Christ or you will remain in captivity.


I would like to get into this business of Calvinism or the TULIP. The TULIP is the foundation of what all of Calvinism is all about. Their doctrine starts out with "Total Depravity" then based upon it comes "Unconditional Election" and then Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace and lastly Perseverance of Saints(Eternal Security).

A better word or words for what they call "Total Depravity" is "Total Inability". For they have man totally separated from God. They incorrectly use the word "depravity", for when they speak of it they talk as if it were total separation from God. Depravity does not mean that even though that is what it produces. A quote from "The Other Side of Calvinism" says; If you take time to look it up in the dictionary it means "Moral Corruption" It comes from the Latin word "depravdre" which is made up of the intensive "de" signifying "completely" and "pravus" meaning crooked. Thus the meaning of "completely crooked". Not happy with this the Calvinist adds the word "Total" One Sovereign Grace Baptist simply says

"Total Depravity is the cause of "Total Inability" and
"Total Inability is the result of "Total Depravity"
This concept or idea they say results in a "complete separation" from God and leaves man "Totally" incapable of "doing anything in the way of receiving Salvation" This is not a complete truth. Total Depravity as the Calvinist teach it has a counterfeit nature about it.

However as disastrous as the fall was, God's grace was there in all of its Glory. For on one side of the picture man lost everything. But on the other side he "gained something that he neither needed or had before the fall. The Knowledge of Good and Evil This gave man a conscience

For A. W. Pink a noted and respected Calvinist writer and theologian writes:

"Conscience is the still small voice of God within the soul, testifying to the fact that man is not his own master but responsible to a moral law which either approves or reproves"

Well this "Total Inability" or "Total Depravity" is the cause and need for of the next doctrine of "Unconditional Election. This is because man in his state of "Total Inability" makes it so that "No one" could be saved. Therefore God must pick or choose or call some. The Calvinist call these the "elect" as far as the rest of the human race is concerned; They are just left to be damned and sent to Hell, These are called "Reprobates"

Here is where the true nature of Calvinism pokes it's ugly head up. You might want to guess about what it is.

Because of the length of all of this I would like to take this issue up in my next post.

God bless


In my last post I made the statement

"And here is where Calvinism raises it's ugly head"

What is this? It is if one accepts the teachings of Calvin then one must say it is "Totally Fatalist in it's nature. Please take note of all the following "Total", "Unconditional", "Limited" and "Irresistible" There is no choice, period.

Why do I call this idea of "Fatalism" the ugly head of Calvinism ? It is because here is where satan uses it to his advantage.

I think before we go any further. We need to prove Calvinism is "Fatalistic" To do this, first let's consider what the word means "Fatalism" Webster defines it as such;

"A doctrine that events are fixed in advance for all time in such a manner that human beings are powerless to change them"

With this in mind lets go back and take a look at some of the teachings of Calvinism. Some of the teachings of St Augustine

"BELIEF REQUIRES PREDESTINATION---Let us, then understand the calling whereby they become elected--not those who are elected BECAUSE THEY HAVE BELIEVED but who are elected that they may believe"

This completely contradicts the scriptural teaching of ELECTION.

"NO GRACE WITHOUT PREDESTINATION---Further, between grace and predestination there is only this difference that "predestination" is the preparation for for grace, while grace is the donation itself."

This completely contradicts scriptural grace.

ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED TO BELIEVE WILL BELIEVE--- Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do."

This contradicts or limits God's Omniscience. Then too, consider man's position in this, if he even has a position.

GOD CHOSE AND PREDESTINED THE WHOLE ARMY OF SAINTS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, BASED SOLELY UPON HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE--- Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His will , so that nobody glory concerning his own will, but about God's will about Himself."

Does any of the above allow man any choice in the matter of salvation ? Is there anything said about his, man's ability to change anything ? Can you match any of the above with Scripture completely ? Is this FATALISM ?

Now before I made the statement "that satan used this to his advantage. How ? Very simply to be saved according to these teachings you must be one of the "elect" And you don't really have a choice in the matter. So all he has to do is convince you that you are not a member of the "elect" for any number of reasons. And what happens then. Knowing you are not a member of the "elect" you just give up and quit seeking Jesus or salvation because you believe you can't change a thing. Also why spend time praying for a loved one. He is either one of the "elect" or they are not. It has all been settled.

But you and I know better.

For we know Jesus stands with open arms and says "Come unto Me ALL YE that are heavy laden"

We know that the scriptures says and teaches

"And the Spirit and the bride say Come. And let him that heareth say come and let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely."

God bless


Joan, I know some of these scriptures might sound convincing to you, but Jesus said that all men would be drawn to him,"when I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." Also God cannot force us to believe, because that is the exact thing he gave us that made us different from the beast, so to force is to be a liar, and so God really isn't God. It says there is no lie in God, but according to predestination God is a liar. Also in Romans 8:30 It starts off, "To whom he foreknew," and then on to what you said, I have found that is the most commonly twisted scripture for predestination, but it doesn't even imply predestination, it clearly says, "God knows who are is and that they will be conformed to the image of his Son Jesus Christ. Read from the beginning of Romans 8 and put all of the scriptures together, Romans 8:30 goes along with the rest of that.

If you are going to use scripture I would appreciate if you would use the whole scripture, because that is how cults get started; by twisting things how you like them. Please if you are going to make a point make it accordingly, the way the Holy Spirit would do it. Ask God to reveal to you the truth of the Matter, not anything false. Be open minded don't allow your mind to get in the way, the voice of the Lord is talking to you, just be quiet and listen.

In the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ!
Andrew Paul Simpson

There is something very common to hard-core calvinists and that is the way that they approach the Holy Spirit. In that they believe that we do not have the will power to choose what is right, the influence of the Holy Spirit in their lives is flawed. God can of course do anything through us and without Him nothing can be done but without our will to choose to follow Him in the Spirit, He cannot manifest that power to the point of our being all that we can be. Or if He can, He often times will not because it takes affirmative faith to be able to choose rightly and an unclean vessel is unfit for service.

This is why the scriptures are so misinterpreted - the Holy Spirit is not the final authority. This is why they cannot believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a seperate experience because they have never experienced it. The idea of bearing witness to the Spirit is quenched because that involves our feelings which is subjective. I sometimes wonder if any Calvinist truly has a spiritual life or if it is all in the flesh.


One point I think we need to address here (speaking as a former "Charismatic Calvinist" - if you want to put a label on me, I certainly don't :-) Man's will CANNOT override God's will. If God ALLOWS man a certain degree of freedom, that's different. That is the sovereign God allowing man to carry out his own will, laying aside His own. However, if God predetermines that He is going to do something, no amount of willpower on the part of a human being will be able to thwart the divine plan. I think the Calvinism takes this to an extreme and says that man has NO choice, but God will not allow man to step in and play God. For example, if God has spoken something through His prophet, then nothing we could ever do "of our own free will" or otherwise can override that. Also, take for example the condition of Pharoah. When God was dealing with Pharoah through Moses to get him to let the people go, GOD hardened Pharoah's heart. I know in some places, it says that Pharoah hardened his heart, but God initially hardened his heart. Did Pharoah have a choice in the matter? I don't think so. Maybe before God hardened his heart, he might have, but not when God determined in His mind to harden Pharoah's heart. Sometimes we want to give man so much freedom of will that we forget that man is a creature and God is his Creator. We also tend to forget that man is a SLAVE to sin. The word "slave" implies bondage....not freedom. So our "free will" in that case is still subject to sin.

In the same chapter (Romans 6), those who are justified by faith are also called "slaves of righteousness." 1 John 3:9 also teaches that whoever is born of God does not practice sin, but it doesn't stop there. It says he CANNOT SIN because God's seed remains in him. Now, our own experience and every other believer in the world for that matter proves that that doesn't mean a believer will never commit sin, so obviously it means that a believer cannot sin HABITUALLY. In fact the tense of the Greek verb hamartano in this case indicates this. The very fact that a born again believer CANNOT PRACTICE SIN, shows that our "free will" is only free within the sphere of our nature. Those who are born again are partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) Those who are not born again are BY NATURE children of wrath. (Ephesians 2:3)

Factor an absolute free will into this equation and you get a salvation by works, because if we really have the freedom to do anything we want to, yet the Bible teaches that a saved person doesn't practice sin, then the condition to salvation becomes faith PLUS not practicing sin. That's not what the Bible teaches....nor the Spirit. We are justified by faith APART from or WITHOUT the works of the Law. (Romans 3:28) We are saved by grace through faith NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) Therefore, my conclusion is that the only way a person can be saved by grace through faith and still yet have a free will is that that "free will" is still bound by that person's nature. So, in effect, we have a bound will and a free will at the same time. Our will is free to act the bondage of our nature.

I know this borders on Calvinistic thinking, but I still believe that when God intervenes by drawing all men to Himself, that this grace is enough to allow man to come to Him of his own free will. However, just as the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51), so can His grace be resisted, because you cannot separate the grace of God from the GIVER of that grace....the Holy Spirit. That it is HARD to resist the grace of God, I agree....but not I don't think it is totally irresistible.

God bless everyone!

Hi Ray,

You are saying two things here. You say that man's will cannot override God's will and yet you say that the freedom that He gives us allows man to carry out his own will. God's ultimate will in the total scheme of things cannot be overridden but all we have to do to override God's will in our own lives is to disobey Him. For us to disobey God is not God's will but we do it all the time because He has given us the freedom to choose to obey or disobey. If we want to be in the will of God, we do as He says. To say that it is God's will for us to disobey is saying that God is the author of sin.


Hi Jay,
Well, I wasn't actually trying to say that disobedience is God's will. What I meant was that God's ultimate will will come to pass and man can do nothing to stop it. Maybe a better way to put it would be, "What God has spoken or fore-ordained will come to pass." For example, the prophecies concerning the judgments that are to come on the earth in the Day of the Lord. There is no question that those will come to pass and nothing man can do to stop them. Of course all things work together for the good of those who love God and are the called according to His purpose, so even when someone doesn't accept Christ, He finds a way to work it for the good of those who believe and love Him. It's a hard thing to figure out, but I do think that God has made every effort to be able to save as many as possible without violating our will. I'm reluctant to split God's will up into two categories - active and permissive, I think. But I suppose in a sense, He does have an ultimate will that will come to pass and every event that takes place is working either directly or indirectly toward it...yet, He has an active will that is involved in the here and now and on an individual level, not wishing any should perish, but that ALL should come to the knowledge of the truth.

God bless!

Hi Ray, et al

I agree, this is a much better way of putting it. The prophecies that were given in the Bible were given because God does know the beginning and end but this does not mean that it was God's will for certain things to happen. He simply knew that we were going to sometimes take matters into our own hands according to the imperfect will of man. This is the biggest mistake of those that leave everything in God's hands in that they do not take responsibility to get God's ultimate will done. Just because God knows everything that happens does not mean that everything that happens is in God's will, disobedience for example. Man can and does go against God's will, it is stupid to teach otherwise. He acts through us, yes but only as we make the choice to follow Him.

We make the choice to follow the righteousness of Jesus or disobey what is required of us. When we make that choice to follow Him, He gives us a helper so that we can have the power over sin that we did not have before. We cannot do right on our own without God's help but we can disobey on our own if we so choose.

Make sense?


Hi Joan and all, first i would like to say that i have really enjoyed reading these debates.....i love the way Joan appeals only to the bible. and i have enjoyed the responses. first though in reply to the last post, i have known a lot of calvinists, and i can honestly say that i would have been better off not meeting any of them. i haven't met any who are even 'nice' people, and they remind me more of pharisees. not to say there are not nice calvinists. i just haven't met them. also the name calvinist is an acceptable name, used by reformed people. the baptist calvinists, not wanting to acknowledge the role of calvin, use 'doctrines of grace'. what are these doctrines? why the five points of calvinism as given at the synod of dort by a load of calvinist baby sprinklers.

The main problem with calvinism is not predestination, as i see it. the bible seems to teach both free will and predestination. how do i reconcile these? i don't. but calvinism denies that we are born again through faith. this to me could very well be heresy. it says that God does the work and that this results in faith, but that regeneration is before faith and we might not even be aware of it. but how can we be new creatures without faith? we have 'purified our souls in obeying the truth, being born the word of God' so say Peter the apostle. 'passive' regeneration is the error of calvinism. the bible says that we are made alive through faith, not that we are made alive resulting in faith. so what is the problem here? the problem is that men have taken a philosophy and applied it to the scripture, in order to take one truth to the exclusion of others.


"The Bible reveals truth; it does not conceal it. A "Calvinist" is simply one who believes the revealed truth about foreordination as written. He does not seek to mix the plain statements of Scripture with human reasoning, or logical extrapolation."

If this is not a flat-out lie, I have never read one. And I mean that in the nicest possible way,

Calvinism proceeds from a Neoplatonic, Gnostic understanding of matter as evil (total inability to do right by humans), and thence erects the entire Juggernaut of Fatalism. The "plain statements of scripture" are subject to interpretation, and I submit that Calvin and Augustine got it wrong, flat wrong.

In any case, to say that Calvinism does not mix logical extrapolation and human reasoning with the Bible is so amazingly ridiculous as to worthy of a thousand hearty belly laughs.

Calvinism consistently (for it is nothing if NOT consistent) and repeatedly reasons away the plain statements of scripture which contradict its system of logic, such as those which imply strongly a human free will and duty to choose right over wrong, those which speak of the Holy Spirit being resisted by humans, those which speak of Christ's death as "for the sins of the whole world" and "for all," and finally, the many passages which speak of the real possibility of personal apostasy from Christ through willful disobedience to moral light and truth.

Once the fundamental fallacy of Calvinism is revealed for what it is (i.e., total inability of humankind to respond to God) the entire system comes crashing down like the house of cards it is.

Genesis 4:7 If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master. (Bible in Basic English)

Apparently God forgot that Cain was totally unable to do right when He made this statement, and that, after the supposed "Fall" happened. That which God commands, He enables.
John Earp

I Guess I'm just the Country Bumpkin in this crowd... I knew there were other doctrines out there.. even knew the names and in some cases an overview of them... But I had no Idea to what extremes they actually went... Short of the ones that we generally refer to as Heresies or Cults that is... I've been aware for awhile of how they are... But hey those are Cults what do you expect... ??? Now to find that the Bible is and has been taken in such twisted manner by people even from my own branch of the Church really makes me wonder...
Then a verse was popped into my mind... something Peter said...

2PE 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

These teachers are among us and will be among us... They will induce destructive Heresies secretly in to the Churches... This does not only apply to Calvinism taken to extremes but to any doctrine that twists the Word of God and takes it into left field carrying with it the souls of men.

We need to really take a close look at the fruit of these vines and see if by the fruit we can tell what the Tree is made of...

On the Surface for example Mormonism looks like good fruit... I almost entertained the ideas of their doctrine myself when I first started studying it. But when looked at closer... what do you see? Salvation by Works is the first tip.. Something is wrong there.... But when you go farther into the doctrine you find that they don't agree with the Athanasian Creed or Nicean Creed.

They actually don't believe in the Trinity. They believe in Multiple Gods.. thats Polytheism!!! So their Gospel when looked at closer becomes God is 1 god Jesus is another God the son of the father and Holy Spirit is a separate God and now here's the scary part... As God is, so shall we become.... taken to the extreme limits and looked at for what it is the Fruit of that particular tree is "Salvation = Becoming a God like God himself" That by the way sounds a little to familiar to me... Wasn't that what Satan promised Eve in the Garden? "you will not surely die! For he knows that when you eat of it you will become like God knowing good from evil..." So the Fruit of Mormonism if boiled down becomes "Eating the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil... one more time"

Most people in the mormon church have no clue as to how their doctrine looks when examined in the Bible as their bibles are changed in places... (special Mormon authorized kjv bibles) and they study the Bible using a second book to define and correct the teachings they are learning... Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great price etc.)

We as Christians in General need to be careful of the Books we read from the Christian Bookstores also.... When we read a book for example that was written by a extremely Liberal writer or Translator we can have our perception changed regarding the Word possibly without knowing it. This also includes Newer translations of the Bible when being made by Liberal individuals who want certain passages changed to allow for today's new age thinking... People who view the Bible like the supreme court views our constitution... as a changing and evolving document. Make a better translation that's liked by more people and sell more copies... Be Careful what you ingest folks, we are indeed on the Doorstep of the end times.

Grace and Peace

Verses that use the term, ransom:

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Verses that use the term redeem or redeemed:

Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb

Verses which use the term, redemption:

Luke 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance

Verses which use the term, purchased:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

My note: It is people who have been purchased with the blood of Christ, not sins.

More later, really have too many things to do today.

God bless,


About Our Enemy.
Our enemy has had thousands of years to know God. Also he has had thousands of years to watch Humans and study our behavior. He knows how to whisper in our ears. He knows how to use our hormonal impulses, influence our annoyances and a myriad of other tricks to bring about desired behavior in individuals. all of this without "Possessing" an individual. He uses his tricks on all people including Christians who are not aware of what he is doing and why they are so annoyed with the things other people do. Without them knowing why the church is persecuted they themselves many times have been used to bring about this result. How? From behavior that the rest of society finds less than Moral, or Hypocritical. Just think of the last time you got really really mad and said something you didn't mean to. Remember the people you hurt? Remember all of the people who witnessed it? How many of them were non-Christians. people who went away saying to themselves "If that is a Christian. I want no part of it" He also knows how to form impressions on the minds of society using the propaganda of mass media. There are many sides to our opposition that we as Christians are often unaware.

If we do a study into who Satan is and How God Created him and what he was in heaven. We see that Satan was one of Gods finest creations. hints are made that he was in Charge of many things there. he was brilliant even by heavens standards. And passably even the Choral Director of Heavens choir. Reflect for a moment on the Mind of the Greatest Musical Geniuses of all time. Think of the masterful compositions they have created keeping hundreds of instruments playing different tunes that when combined make one beautiful musical arrangement called a Symphony.

Now Consider a mind that was infinitely more talented and complex than what you have imagined and think of all of that brilliance being miss applied to one thing: MAKING WAR WITH CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH TODAY!!! Now Consider that Satan took 1/3 of the Angles of Heaven with him when he was cast down. Angels that numbered like the stars of the sky. Consider that brilliant mind like a Commander of Generals, and those Generals being over Hundreds or thousands of "Divisions" of Fallen angels. Think of How many "Brigades" are in a Division and how many "Battalions" in a Brigade an how many "Companies" in a Battalion and then remember that there are 150 or so Angels in each Company.

You see Our enemy is a huge well Organized army. Well Organized by a Brilliant Mind that would make Mozart, Bach and Beethoven pale by comparison. His Organizational skills can be applied to Music or to Military Strategy at the highest level as the bible speaks of in talking about the Anti-Christ.

Brothers and sisters please if you remember not one other thing today. then remember this. (Yes we have won the battle already through Christ but.) Do Not Under Estimate the Enemy!!! Study the Enemy and be aware of his tactics. An army that is Prepared for the Worst, fights the hardest! Fight the Good fight and carry the Cross unto the Gates of Hell taking out souls that are even on the threshold!!!

In Christ
Jim Madden

  1. God is soeverein, omnipotent, and omniscient which in itself does not tell how He deals with people
  2. God has a plan and purpose, which determines WHERE He wants to bring creation, and HOW He wants to get there, this 'masterplan' if you will is laid down in scripture.
  3. The will of man cannot overrule the will of God, else His plan depends on the (good)will of man, which cannot be the case. The unregenerated man does not seek to do the will of God.
  4. Our Lord Jesus died for the sin of the world. In this sense, He paid the dept. He is the redeemer. So Gods grace extents to all people, more importantly to the entire creation (col 1:20 all things in heavens and earth)
  5. God does choose/call people for a specific task or purpose [Abraham, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, the judges etc, evangelists, preachers, teachers, apostles etc] The calling for every person is different, but the grace is not limited to the called one, the goal is that the grace flows through a person to others.

The basic question where opinions and experiences do differ are:

1) is rebirth a result of our choice to believe and salvation a result of us keeping our faith, or is faith the proof that we are born again.

Which results in a set of follow-on issues:

A) if rebirth is a work of God, does that make us choice-less and therefore 'robots'?
B) if rebirth is a work of God, does that mean that people are predestined to believe and others not?
C) if rebirth is a work of God, does that provoke fatalism?
D) if rebirth is a work of God, does that violate our will?
E) if salvation is a result of our choice, and ability to keep our faith, what assurance do we have?

And perhaps many more questions arise from this again. In many cases, the answer to the ABC questions leads to the answer on the question of rebirth, and who is in control, rather then the other way around.

It has been pointed out before that man does not seek God (rom 3:11), also there are scriptures that tell beyond doubt, that man are drawn to God, that man cannot see the kingdom of God unless reborn from above, that rebirth is of God and not the will of man, that man is reborn out of water and Spirit etc.

It also has been pointed out, that it is possible for man to resist God, that man is unwilling and that man can fall from grace as it is called.

So there seems to be interaction between man and God. It is not agreed upon, where this interaction starts. We seem to agree that God takes the initiative, and that man does respond. The basic issue at hand is the proces, and via this proces we have the question of who is responsible for what.

There are 2 scenarios:
- the Holy Spirit convinces us that we are a sinner and need Christ - we respond by acknowledging that we do need Christ, and embrace faith - God regenerates us
- we are born again, see ourselves in the light of God and become convinced that we are a sinner and need Christ - we respond by deciding to follow Christ

During our life as a christian God does transform us by renewing our mind. We are growing up to be His son or daughter. This means that God teaches us the character of Christ. We grow from baby, to youngster to adult. And during this proces, we leave the self-centeredness of the baby, and grow into the God-centeredness of the adult. Like Jesus himself, who did what He saw the father do, and spoke what He heard the father say. The centre of our thinking changes from 'good and evil' as viewed by ourselves, to 'life' of God. The tree in the centre of our garden is slowly replaced, we are transformed back to the state of Eden, the way God wants it.

I think the same applies to the discussion regarding who takes the lead in the proces of rebirth, are we born again after we decide, or before. Our first christian act is usuallty that we decide to follow Christ. After many more dealings of the Lord and the more we grow, the more we realize, that it was God who lead us where-ever we went. The more we learn about God, and His work, love and life, the more we realize that we are and do nothing of ourselves. The bottomline of this is, that both points of view are true. They are true at certain points in our christian life. When I was young, I had to decide which way my life would go, would I follow Christ, or would I not follow Christ. It was at that moment an intens struggle. Looking back at it, I now realize, that it was the Lord who worked in me, and that it was the struggle between the old and the new man that was going on. Much like the every day struggle many people have who already decided to follow Christ. It was an obedience struggle, since I already believed that Jesus died for me, and was my saviour.

So when people are invited to follow Christ, that is a good thing. We should invite them, and ask them to make a decision. Preaching the gospel, and inviting people to be reconciled to God is the method by which God works. It is the proces that leads to conception and rebirth. When we grow up, and learn more about God, and experience how He works an leads us, we can look back, and determine each on a personal level when and whereto God has lead us.

Recently I got a mail, which stated that a doctrine is like wet cement, and when we stand in it, and it dries, we are stuck. I think this applies very well to the discussion at hand. We can talk about this for as long as we want. We will not be able to convince each other about the 'one and only and true doctrine'. The Lord will show you in due time who did what. Meanwhile we may enjoy the life and the lessons He gives us every day, and let Him teach us, such that we grow to the full stature of the image of Christ.

Another mail on this list stated that there is only one truth, and that is a person. This person is also the way, and the life. Jesus is our life. In our conversations, we tend to forget that all our worrying and dicussing does not add one cubit to our sprititual stature. It is the life of Christ in us which transforms us. I'm at fault myself when presenting a view and experience as truth, and not as a facet or my view of the truth. We all have part of the truth, since we all have part of the life of Christ in us. Our experience of this life, however subjective that may be is real and true for everyone. When we share our views, we should try to recognize the work God is doing in the other person. We can then share our view, and commune with each other such that there is unity.

The aim of this list as I understood is to reach unity. Unity comes from being in the same Spirit. The Spirit is binding us together, we are baptized in one Spirit. We are one living organism, we are the same being, we are the many membered body of Christ. We are to cooperatively express His life. Unity does not come when we agree on all doctrines we can come up with. Unity comes when the life of Christ flows from one to another. It's not so much who is right, it's in the right Spirit of sharing what God has showed us. We are all at a different stage in our learning curve. God deals with us independantly, and does not show us everything in the same sequence or at the same time. Therefore we are different, and the difference in our being and experience is the perfect setting to learn to accept and learn from each other without judging.

Yours in Christ,


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