Jesus - The Sign Spoken Against - Babylon Question

February 23, 2000

Well, Calvinism versus Arminianism. To me it is exciting and to a lot of other people also, but they don't seem to be on this list except for a couple of us. The reason may be that it is not taught in the churches, so I would think that most of us have never dealt with questions of this type. That's OK. We did get a couple responses on Calvinism but the first one, I cannot understand. Maybe we could discuss why I can't understand it but it is not important, we need to discuss some other things.

Fact is we got side-tracked. Of course that is not the same as being de-railed. As long as we allow Jesus to be in charge we will be all right. More than all right, we are trying to move toward being perfect like our Father in Heaven is perfect and love and humility is a greater part of that. In fact the closer we get to that ideal, the more attention that we will receive from those that will try to de-rail us. It will happen you know, that they will try. I have with good prophetic, scriptural and actual authority that they will come against us, they will send their spies to monitor our little group and any other group like us and they will do just what we can expect of them - to despise and hate us and do what they can to destroy us by what they say and do.

It has been on my mind a lot of the decision that I made (we made) to accept a diversity of opinion on a certain subject for the sake of love for the brethren. I have had to really wrestle with the dichotomy of love for the sake of unity on the one hand and uniform agreement for the sake of unity on the other. I had to realize that it is not an issue of love or unity or agreement or uniformity, it is for the sake of truth. If it is God's truth that we agree to accept each other in love for the sake of unity even though we may not agree, then who is to argue with that. Not us, that is for sure but look out for the rest because the enemy is just waiting around the corner to send his forces against us because it is not according to their own version of the truth. You would think that they would leave us alone and go on to the ones that agree with them but that is not good enough if they are motivated by hatred and pride. Not to fear. If the Lord is for us, who can prevail against us.

I received the copy of Spread the Fire from TACF last week and was reading it tonight. John Arnott wrote an article called "A Sign Spoken Against" He was referring to the declaration of Simeon to Mary and Joseph concerning the baby Jesus, "Behold, the child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel and to be a sign spoken against." His message was of his group being unified but diverse. Since there is not much in this edition, I will put part of it here. If you want the whole thing go to

John Arnott:

"Long before the renewal broke out, I made a conscious decision to value the whole body of Christ. In fact, the diversity in the Church reminds me of the twelve tribes of Israel. It was okay to be a member of a different tribe, to wear different clothes, to fly a different banner as long as everyone understood they were part of the same nation.

Since this wonderful outpouring came to our church, now six years ago, I have seen this value both fulfilled and challenged. We have seen over two million people from all over the world, from practically every sector of the body of Christ walk through our doors. I love to hear how Christians from such diverse backgrounds have found a renewed love for the Lord Jesus Christ while attending our renewal meetings in Toronto.

As much as I love diversity and unity with my brothers and sisters in Christ, I've made another decision: not to compromise the move of the Holy Spirit simply for the sake of getting along with everyone. I've learned that the real unity of the Spirit is not based on compromising away the truth. Rather, the unity God produces happens when we are flowing together in the outpouring He has sent. And it grieves me to be rejected by brothers who cannot allow us to serve the Lord Jesus Christ with different methods than they have. Instead they speak against the move of the Holy Spirit and influence everyone they can to do the same.

Jesus, The Sign Spoken Against

Why have some members of the body of Christ rejected this renewal? For the same reason Jesus Christ Himself was rejected by those He came to save. It was part of His destiny to not only unify but also divide.

One day, Simeon, an elderly priest who had been waiting faithfully in the temple for the Messiah for many years, found himself looking into the face of a tiny baby boy, whose parents were Mary and Joseph of Nazareth. They had brought Him to the temple for the rite of circumcision. Suddenly, the Holy Spirit came upon Simeon and he began to prophesy, "Now your servant can depart in peace… for my eyes have seen thy salvation…a light to lighten the Gentiles and to be the glory of your people, Israel!"

About the time Mary and Joseph were rejoicing in this, Simeon probably said something like, "But wait, there's more." "Behold, the child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel and to be a sign spoken against." And to Mary he prophesied, "…A sword will pierce your own soul to the end that many hearts will be revealed."

Wait a minute? Why would God send the Messiah to be a sign spoken against? I thought He was interested in saving lost people.

God the Father is not only interested in saving lost people but in finding a bride for His Son, a bride who shares His values, and our values are often only revealed when they are challenged. It challenged the hearts of the Pharisees when multitudes were following Jesus and their own influence was being lost.

The same is true today in the Church. The Holy Spirit's coming in revival also challenges the motives of the leaders of the religious community because it threatens their influence...."

First things first, what we need to discuss now is Babylon. You can find Babylon the Great of the last days in the political world, the economic world and the religious world. We need to discuss the religious Babylon. What we have in this group is a Zerubbabel ministry of the two witnesses. We are to measure the temple and hold the plumb line. The two witnesses have not yet appeared, they will be coming during the tribulation and there is much to happen before they will announce themselves. What will happen first though, is a ministry that will herald the coming and prepare the way. This is made up of many of us in the apostolic and prophetic that will act as the two witnesses and come together in unity before all these things in revelation happen. I do not believe that there will be any that will come forth as the two witnesses today as the only two witnesses, they need to be a part of this collective unity or not a part at all. Many false Christs will come with thus saith the Lord, we have already been warned not to go to them, if anyone thinks that God has told them that they are a part of the two witnesses, then they must be a part of the Zerubbabel ministry or they are only in the way and deluding themselves. Before you go on, you need to get over to the two witnesses page at now.

Now that you have read it, you will see that it is only those who have come out of Babylon that will be involved in the building of the house of God. These are examples for us in these last days, that should be obvious to anyone who believes in Bible prophecy. Recently one of the anti-cult cults came to my site and really started poking around. This particular one does not believe in the power involved in the laying on of hands, they think that the latter rain concept is a deception, they despise prophetic utterance and think the five-fold ministry is a fraud. We have already seen what happens when we teach that love is evidence of the Holy Ghost, we are called heretics. Look what happened when we accept other millennial and rapture theories of our brothers and sisters as non-foundational for the sake of love, we are a freak show and I am a lying reprobate. Why do they rage? Why are they filled with so much pride that they would seek to come against us? For us to be able to get out of Babylon ourselves, we must be able to identify these false attitudes and divisions and hateful doctrines. There are some things that we cannot possibly accept. For us to identify the Babylonian confusion, we must discuss the issues that have divided us and come together in love and humility to come to one accord. This is what I have been saying from the beginning, and this is why I have been saying it - to get ourselves out of Babylon, to get holy and prepare ourselves for the marriage supper of the Lamb. I can do no otherwise but what I feel that the Lord has told me to do and I know that I am called to do it.

So let us get busy with it but know this: it may heat up hotter than it has been and we are now accelerating our discussions by this. Don't drop out just because you feel the heat. Pray that God will remove the veil from our eyes that we may see clearly and remove the false voices so that we may have ears to hear. And especially those of you on this list that are not part of the discussions, I ask for you to please pray for us. Pray that God speaks to us and strips away the pride of self-righteousness that we may stand on the righteousness of God. Pray an anointing on ourselves as well as each other and pray that all will be done to His glory.

There are no suggestions from me on this except: No more "I have the spirit, so I must be right" attitude. Also no protestant self-seeking platitudes of "the Roman church is Babylon." We are better than that and I trust more mature. All churches have their confusion and all denominations have had their divisions and schisms. Identify them, it is up to you, I have no more to say to influence you on direction. God help us all.


Jay what bizarre things you attribute to Calvinism.... the essence of calvinism is simply the acceptance of the truth of Gods omniscience (though it is impossible with our minds to apprehend the scope of His holiness and power, and in humility accept the inability of our limited mind to sort his counsels) if someone who has reached this intersection in their walk is assigned the label of Calvinist it is not an extremely inaccurate (or dishonorable as you suppose) .... "Calvinist " I have known well have certainly not exhibited any indication of arrogance whatever...I would agree their insight tends to make them a rigid pain in the behind but there is a certain peculiar grace which is so sweet and uncommon in their souls they aren't worried about relating to other believers because they are consumed with relating to the bizarreness of our position in Christ to God himself.. remember the babe who sat at Jesus feet instead of fixing dinner and doing housework...Jay baby your fixing dinner were sitting at the feet lighted up dude......

Joel Purdy Dear Jay

I read Darell Garrett's defense of the pre trib. view and made a point of looking up all the scriptures he quoted. As I said in my previous letter. this age we now live in will merge almost unnoticed into the pre tribulation period which in turn will merge into the tribulation itself. As I read through the scriptures that Darell quoted the feeling came that we should not be concerned with groups of people (the Church or Israel or Saints etc) but with our personal selves. So the question I asked myself is 'Will I go through the terrible horrors of the Tribulation'? In Mat.24 Jesus used the word 'you' at least a dozen times as if to point at me. So if I live long enough I will go through part of the tribulation and may be put to death by evil people or natural disaster. However if I stand firm this death will not be because of the wrath of God as Darell thinks but an instantaneous transformation into everlasting life- Jesus paid the price for my sin and wickedness so I am freed from the wrath of God that is rightly due to me. Millions of Christians will gladly go through this 'death' experience during the Tribulation. In Rev.4 before the Tribulation there are only angels in addition to the 24 elders but in Rev.7 after most of the Tribulation events there are multitudes of people clothed in white who have come out of the Tribulation.

I like to think that the millions of true Christians who have now passed on and who suffered for their beliefs will have gone through their own private Tribulation but they too will have passed on to the first stage of eternal life and will appear again in the Millennium. The word of God tells me directly that if I survive this age and the events leading to the end of the age then I will go through at least part of the Tribulation and I am mentally and spiritually preparing myself to go through it all if God so desires me to. Alternatively God may call me in well before the Tribulation as He has already done to millions of His people.

Thanks for making us all think-even if we still haven't got it all right.


Hey Jay i decided to take a look at ^#(%* @(^)$'s site too...oh my gosh......that guy really has a bad i guess he has been taken off the list...well i hope so.....we must be doing something right with people like that finding us! what you said about calvinists not denying the godhead...i guess not the same way as like the jw's. Though have you ever noticed how they always talk of 'God the Son' and not 'the Son of God'? this is because they do not believe that Jesus is 'God from God' as the creed says. They deny that Jesus is the revealer of the invisible Father. therefore they cannot see Jesus as the reflection of the will of the Father, which is why they have such a hard time with healing for today. God sent his Son to become human and suffer with us so that we could relate to the Father through the Son. The Son reveals the Father to us. So when we see Jesus healing and doing good then we know that that is the heart of the Father for us. The Calvinist God is unknowable, impersonal, and distant, and so they substitute knowledge for relationship. to the calvinist the invisible Father has not revealed himself through the Son. How they can reconcile that to the scriptures and to the historic teaching of the church i do not know. i became a Christian 10 years ago when i was 15 and soon became involved with calvinists and i would have to say it almost destroyed me. they told me to leave the church i had gotten involved with because it was Pentecostal. Because i didn't come from a respectable middle class background i was treated with a lot of suspicion. i read tons of theology (talk about a mis-spent youth!) but i always questioned everything. God started showing me stuff in the Word, mainly along the lines of the stuff i shared before, and i also saw how I had lost my relationship with God. Well thank God He pulled me out of all that junk. Interestingly, like the jw's, salvation to the calvinist appears to be a (Greek) process of gaining knowledge (the bible calls it 'ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the Truth), rather than a process of transformation into Christlikeness. No doubt they have been influenced by the Greek concept of immortal soul and bi partite nature of man (body and soul) rather than the biblical spirit, soul and body. to Greek thinking the mind is the highest function of the human spirit. when jonathon edwards rejected the faculties psychology of calvinism, and started preaching to the conscience and not to the intellect, there was revival. well better go.


Hi Jay,

Jay,i woke up this morning,being led to find this passage in God's word,Matthew 21:12,13,and after studying it,and meditating on it,i often wonder if the Lord had of come in our modern-times,would he have,to repeat this in our places of worship today.

With debates,which have been raging on since who knows when,Jesus spoke in John 5:43,and said,I am come in my Father's name,and ye receive me not:If another shall come in his own name,him ye will receive.

Whether it be Calvin,or Wesley,Mormonism, Catholicism,Protestantism,or whatever,it's still about God's Word.Paul said in 1st Corinthians, 8:2,And if any man think that he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.He also said in 1st Corinthians 13:9,For we know in part,and we prophesy in part.

What men like Calvin,and Wesley,knew they knew in part,not meaning that erroneous doctrine,is to be excused,but the same thing that they get flamed for we do the same today.Scripture,not to be interpreted,for it interprets itself through fulfillment.

I have been preparing a sermon,on chapter 4,of the book of Revelation,and as far as the rapture is concerned,yes there will be one,when? Who knows, i do know this,at the beginning of the book of Acts, a question was aked of our Lord,and it was this, Lord,will thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?And he said unto them,(it is not for you to know the times or the seasons,which the Father hath put in his own power).

If man thought that he could even come close,there would be bets being taken in Las Vegas right now. In Matthew 25,one verse speaks how,that, and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut.The important thing about the rapture,is to be ready like Noah,and his family, Enoch,Elijah,the children of Israel,the night of the passover,and so on.

In the 24th chapter of the book of 1st Chronicles, verses 1-19,paying particular attention to verses, 4. and 5. I read somewhere that these 24,men symbolically represented,the twenty-four elders, in Revelation,4,12 representing,the old testament, or the 12 sons,and tribes,and 12 representing the new testament,or the twelve apostles.Paul spoke of our Lord in Hebrews 8:2 as A minister of the sanctuary,and of the true tabernacle,which the Lord pitched and not man.

Jay,out of all things said and done,i most of all thank God for his grace,for where would any of us be without it.That which you teach is very concise, and clear,something that which is not being taught today,keep it coming and let us, that have ears to hear,hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


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