Love Found a Way - Tongues Issue
Love Found a Way
Hi lovely people,
A consensus seems to have found a way here and it is love.
The question was if "tongues are the only initial evidence of the
baptism of the Holy Ghost." The answer is a little bit of a surprise to
me, it seems that tongues is not necessarily evidence of the Holy Ghost
at all. Not that tongues could not be evidence but to use it as a plumb
line for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost seems not the way to go. There
was a comment that even if we are to agree unanimously on any issue,
that does not necessarily make it the truth. We are however, letting
Jesus have control over what we are doing, have not isolated scripture
but compared, we do have the Holy Ghost, we are not deluded in our
thinking and if love is the answer, who is to argue with that?
What is significant is that others have had the same experience that I
have had in receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost before any initial
manifestations. The experience was real, the signs came later for many
of us. That is proof enough for ourselves, those that have received in
this way cannot deny it. Those that have received it differently should
understand that it is God that gives the gifts as He pleases and not in
only the way that we receive individually. If any one receives
differently, there should not be doctrines in the church that limit the
way God deals with us and excludes themselves from the body because of
the difference, that is causing division pure and simple.
I have put the consensus in a different form this time and just gone
through all of the previous responses, including new ones and my own,
picked out important points that lead to consensus, and put them into
paragraphs like we are as one voice. Each paragraph is a collective
effort. New responses follow.
Jay.
I have been to Haiti, and while there, I personally witnessed Haitian
voodoo priests speaking in tongues. I have also know of Mormons who
speak in tongues. So, in what sense could tongue-speaking be conclusive
evidence of the presence, let alone the baptism, of the Holy Spirit? My
conclusion is that it could not possibly be. Tongues is a sign of
receiving a spirit not the evidence of the Holy Ghost. Satan can
counterfeit the gifts of the spirit. If we were to judge the baptism of
the Holy Ghost with only the gift of tongues, we let the possibility of
the counterfeit blind us to the true manifestations and open to
deception. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into
the world."
If these are all gifts from God, the Almighty, the Perfect One, no gift
should be held as less than another.
The gift of tongues was elevated to a position above the other spiritual
gifts when it should not have been, placing the church out of order. Our
blessed Father has many good gifts for us, His children, tongues are one
of them, prophecy is another, discernment. The intimate relationship,
being sensitive to His leading and a sign, not evidence, but a tool as
one of the gifts. They are tools needed to accomplish the will of the
Lord and just as we do not all have all the gifts (although I want them
all and believe that because they belong to the Holy Spirit and He
abides within us, we have access to them all), tongues is included as
one of the gifts.
Are not love and prophecy and interpretation and discernment and the
word of knowledge and healing and casting out demons manifestations of
the Holy Ghost? Most importantly the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is
something that God does. We as humans put limitations on an infinite
God, who can manifest Himself anyway he chooses. The gifts were placed
as "THE HOLY SPIRIT SAW FIT." Not as we saw fit. We don't pick and
choose the gift and the time. The Holy Spirit supplies those as He sees
fit. To be baptized with the Holy Ghost means we are immersed in or
clothed with Him. The Holy Spirit is a person and is not the gift of
tongues.
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit
withal." "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to
another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit..."
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something God does personally for us
by His Holy will. What flows out of that person as the result of the
Spirit coming upon is between them and God. The person receiving the
Spirit will also know when He comes upon them. That tongues are an
evidence of this is such a minor point. His Holy will is the major
point, and some of us don't get it that His Holy will in our lives is
our only real Life. The conservative hard line that there is only one
Baptism, seems to me just hard heartedness and a religious spirit that
wants God in a comfortable box. Don't feel that we all have to believe
JUST as YOU believe, at the SAME TIME that you believe, in the SAME
MANNER. Christianity isn't just walking with the Lord, but growing with
him as well.
"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers
of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues?
Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show
you a more excellent way."
Tongues is a gift and the least of all gifts at that, however I think
for some it is needed to manifest to them that they were truly filled.
It is according to their faith and some do not have the faith to speak
forth
as the Spirit gives them utterance. I do speak in tongues but I have
found a more excellent way. LOVE to me is the real evidence of the Holy
Spirit in my life. If everyone reads and accepts I Cor.13, there should
be no division in the group. The greatest gift of the Holy spirit is
LOVE and in love we can teach and learn from each other.
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not
love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."
The main objective of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not tongues.
We should not pray for people to get tongues in praying for someone to
receive the Baptism. The Apostles didn't. We should instead pray for an
immersion in the Spirit to take place. Get them filled first. It is so
sad that so many are seeking "tongues" and not the Christ of Calvary,
neither the GIFT GIVER! We should elevate the giver, not the gift. Let
us seek HIM and all things He has for us will come.
Jesus said out of your belly (heart) will flow Rivers of Living Water.
The River can flow out in many different forms, and not just tongues.
When I pray, I pray silently in the spirit with power, the type of
prayer power that can receive interpretation in the congregation. I can
ask God a question and He miraculously answers me through the voice of
others. That is only a sign to me, others have no idea. The speaking in
tongues is the Sign, the Evidence is the manifestation of the fruits of
the Spirit thru your life. It is the Character of Jesus Christ displayed
thru our life to fulfil the Word. Holiness, character, etc are evidences
of the Baptism, but could not be classified as the initial evidence. It
doesn't matter how much you speak in tongues if you don't have these
things reflecting him in your life you don't have the Holy Ghost. I
agree it is the Sign of speaking with other tongues. The evidence is the
lifestyle.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is
no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the
Spirit."
The only way we will be able to know for sure, is when we see things the
way the Lord sees things. When they walk in a way that they see the
world the way Jesus sees the world, it will be readily apparent to them,
what the spiritual "state" is for the people they interact with.
i can only answer the question of baptism in this way,, in a story form,
a true story from the life of my grandfather.
my grandfather had 5 sons and a daughter,
(my
mother), along with his wife, they all went to the baptist
church,(which
brand of baptist i am not quite sure). one sunday one of the sons was
"convicted" that he should be baptized, so he told the "minister", and
the
plan was that the baptism take place the following sunday, as the boy
wanted
to wait until his mother could be present to see the big event.
unfortunately, the boy was killed the following thursday.
the next time the family was in church, after the funeral, the
"minister" was
speaking on the topic of baptism he said that baptism is necessary for
salvation and told the story of the boy, that is burning in hell right
at
that very moment, although he loved Jesus and was careful to obey him,
he
failed to get baptized in time, to save his soul.
i am not going to comment any
farther,
perhaps others would like to judge and answer if they believe that the
pastor
is correct in what he taught here in this sermon, and by the way, is
this an
appropriate time to bring such a word. by the way, i have another
story, but
i will hold it until the discussion of predestination of the "elect"
comes
up,, your friend bordtodis,,,,,
heretic and proud of it
ahh tongues--when I came back to the church almost four years ago I had
after about two months an experience on a Monday after a particularly
wonderful Sunday of worship when I was taking a walk in an old growth
forest
about a halfmile from my house, I began to sing one of the worship songs
which intones hallelujah, over and over again and I had an experience
quite unlike any other -- wherein living running water seemed to be
pouring
through me of about the space of one half hour in time, it was wonderful
and
more uplifting than anything I'd ever known it culminated and then
continued
until I got to a giant sugar Pine tree that is almost a thousand years
old
or possibly older, it was an event in my life when knew that God had a
hold
of me in a very literal way. There have been many times of infilling
since
that time but none so powerful altogether wonderful as that one and the
experience was one that left no doubt that it was our blessed Lord
giving
this Baptism of Spirit in a tangible way--so I would know Him and His
presence in my life. Two weeks later some one suggested that I ask for
the
gift of tongues, I simply asked then it was given and continued to
bless my
private prayer life (I've never spoken in tongues in public worship)
there
were times that I began to sing (and before this happened I could barely
carry a tune and still can barely carry a tune) but when the spirit
moved me
to sing in an unknown tongue there were times that it was really on key
and
really uplifting my spirit to God. Much later, I read about the baptism
of the
Holy Spirit and realized that was what happened to me--and later the
controversy of tongues being an evidence came up and I know, well that
was
how it happened to me--but I know many other bothers and sisters who are
full of th the Holy Spirit of God by their walk and Love and light of
their
lives that have had something happen quite different and its' all
somehow
very differently the same. Tongues have been a lesser part of my walk
for
some time now but there was a season that it was an uplifting passionate
part of my prayer life that seemed to take care of depression and would
often answer questions that were pressing. I could make much or more of
this
"gift" but have desired since then the gift of prophecy as well. But
what I
have made of all of this is that most importantly the Baptism of the
Holy
Spirit is something that God does. We approach Him through the various
sacraments of the church, water baptism, communion, worship, we submit
ourselves to Him and when we are doing it right we are really doing it
by
our own will and not with a religious spirit. The Baptism of the Holy
Spirit
is something God does personally for us by His Holy will. That tongues
are
an evidence of this is such a minor point. His Holy will is the major
point,
and some of us don't get it that His Holy will in our lives is our only
real
Life. The conservative hard line that there is only one Baptism, seems
to
me just hard heartedness and a religious spirit that wants God in a
comfortable box. Our blessed Father has many good gifts for us, His
children, tongues are one of them, prophecy is another, discernment,
real
discernment that is not simply fearful suspicion is another, we will one
day
step into a threshold of eternity with an ever present Presence of God
and
will be given gifts beyond our imagination--one of them will be
worshiping or
Lord and Our God without the veil of this space and time--then there
will be
nothing but Spirit an Truth--now there is so little of it. When we do
get
it, it should be a big deal. But many won't understand until the time
God
touches them so they know.. The real gift from God is our loved ones
coming
to our precious savior and finding in Him all that we've found. That we
take
our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus with an open heart and share
our
experience of Him and His blessings with others is another gift. Some do
not
accept gifts because of pride, and jealousy and a double mindedness, the
world has money and flesh--to many that's all there is but once one has
drank from water that never runs dry those things are of little
importance.
In Jesus jk
Hi Jay,
I felt compelled to write to you, because I know you are speaking the
truth concerning the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. I must first say what
led me to your forum in the first place.
I was searching for answers concerning tongues, and the initial evidence
of receiving the Holy Ghost. You see, I also received the Baptism with
the Holy Ghost. I was 12 years of age. Like you, I never spoke in
tongues. I only know that because I desired to be saved at that age,
and having the saints of God surrounding me as I was in revival, God
baptized me with His Spirit, as I confessed the name of Jesus.
Jay, the Lord knows I am speaking the truth when I say that I indeed
received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, and I did not speak in
tongues. I am 34 years old now, and a backslider, who has within the
last 6 months returned to the Lord. Being confused over the tongues
issue, I began my search, which led me to your site. I attend a Church
that is somewhat legalistic. It's really hard to explain to people who
have received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, and were given the
initial evidence of speaking in tongues, that one can receive the
Baptism with the Holy Ghost, and not be given the gift of tongues.
Not having the strength as you've displayed in your forum, by standing
firm on how God baptized you with His Spirit, I began to question
whether I missed out on the full blessings when I was Baptized with the
Holy Ghost. The question came in when I had returned to the Lord, and
the pastor of this particular church began teaching on the Holy Ghost.
He preached that you "WILL" have the evidence of speaking in tongues,
when you receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Jay, some may say well if you truly received the Baptism with the Holy
Ghost, then why did you backslide. I can say that when I was young, and
desired to be saved, I was taught a "Once Saved always Saved" doctrine.
I never really felt comfortable with that doctrine, which I now know to
be totally false, but I felt I was saved as I lived in sin. As I grew
older, I wrestled with religion, and life issues pertaining to God. The
Spirit of God never let me go, and I now have returned to the Lord.
I knew as I sat in church listening to that particular pastor, he was in
error about the tongues issue. Jay, I'd like to thank you for being strong and standing by what you
know to be the truth. Not that I ever doubted what I received from God,
but because I was taught something in error,(as a child), ignorance,
and the backsliding issue, it caused me to question whether I missed
out on the full outpouring of God's spirit. I'm really glad God has
shown me the truth in this matter. He led me to your site to find
someone such as yourself, who had a similar experience when the Baptism
with the Holy Ghost was given.
I'd like to close in saying that we as humans put limitations on an
infinite God, who can manifest Himself anyway he chooses. I'm going to
pray that those who believe that tongues are necessary, will come to
know the truth.
In Christ..........................Tony
Dear Jay
If everyone reads and accepts I Cor.13 there should be no division in
the
group. The greatest gift of the
Holy spirit is LOVE and in love we can teach and learn from each other.
I agree with you completely that if you are taught something by the Holy
Spirit it is not possible to compromise on what you have been taught.
I
know this because I believe that the Holy Spirit has taught me something
(on
creation) and I cannot therefore compromise what the Holy Spirit has
taught
me in favour of another persons views. I have however to teach in love
and
use ONLY the scriptures
to support what I say. But my experience is that well entrenched views
are
difficult to change and I dare say I have been accused of
bringing division into the church. This has sometimes made me think
that
what I thought I received from the Holy Spirit was in fact
deceptions from the Devil but having gone back to the scriptures for
confirmation I can say all doubts have gone.
So what I am saying is that we are all exalted to receive the gifts from
the
Holy Spirit but to use these gifts to edify others. But this must be
done
in Love and if others cannot accept parts of what God has given us we
must
not feel hurt or offended.
If another person wishes to share something that he or she believes is
from
the Holy Spirit we must in love listen carefully to what is being
taught. If
this is clearly against what scripture teaches then in love we must tell
the
person concerned. In this way God's word is
aired in a spirit of love not of pride and contention.
Leander
i am prepared to
say that tongues appears to be the initial evidence of
the Holy Spirit in the examples in Acts, but if
somebody (such as yourself) is saying that they
prophesied then that is still evidence of the Holy
Spirit and I am not going to put God in a box! Of
course you were baptized in the Spirit....i would be
cautious though if there was no supernatural
evidence.....love is a fruit of the Spirit but is not
an 'initial evidence' like say tongues or prophecy. in
Acts they could say that they knew somebody had
received the Holy Spirt because "they heard them speak
with tongues and magnify God". In the Old Testament
whenever the Holy Spirit came on somebody or a group
of people there was always a manifestation and it
seems that the same pattern is in Acts. However I
think what some of the people were saying is true
too...that we are all still learning and i know i
don't have all the answers on all these things and all
i can do is tell you how i see them at the moment from
my limited perspective. So maybe we all need to be a
little more forbearing toward one other.
oh out of interest i am facing a situation at the
moment and i wonder if you take prayer requests...well
if not don't worry about it but if yes then just get
back to me.
thanks
in him
dean
Hi Jay,
Here are a few points to ponder on the matter:
*Every believer has an "anointing" within them that bears witness to the
truth and also reveals those things that would be a lie from the enemy
(1
John 2: 27). The effectiveness of this "anointing" in our life can be
greatly inhibited by our being more devoted to an "ideology" (a body of
ideas characteristic of a religious group, church, or denomination) than
to the Spirit of truth. If we are dogmatically clinging to an ideology,
the voice of the Spirit of truth will be drowned out.
*The "anointing" always agrees with Scripture as the Spirit teaches it,
but not as man would teach it. Jesus fulfilled Scripture by being led by
the Spirit - doing what He saw His Father do.
*This "anointing" that abides within us draws the line between that
which
glorifies God and that which glorifies man. There are different ways
that
the Lord can speak to us and reveal the difference: 1.) Scripture, 2.)
an
inward sense of the Holy Spirit being grieved, 3.) a "troubling" in
one's
spirit, 4.) I have personally experienced pain in my (spiritual) heart
under certain circumstances - not because of a personal problem, and 5.)
other ways which the rest of you could identify.
*Lastly, when we try to understand or promote the things (i.e.
doctrines)
of God with our natural minds, the true things of the Kingdom are hidden
from us. God hides the truth of the Kingdom (that which the "anointing"
teaches) from the wise and prudent but reveals them unto babes. In other
words, we cannot be more devoted to our understanding or what we believe
to be true (right or wrong), than we are to God. We take that first step
into error by doing so. This is how people get off into heresy. We can
be
a lover of the "truth" and still be caught by the devil's craftiness.
Jesus is the Truth. The more we come to know Him, the easier it will be
for us to recognize error. We then can rightly discern the soulish from
the spiritual.
In His Service,
Gary P.
Jay and all,
I have really been enjoying the discussions on speaking of
tongues et
al., and I would like to add a word of caution to those of you who are
thinking of leaving the group. I am normally an eternal optimist.
Although I don't think the same as some of you, it would be a shame to
see you drop out merely because a little division. Please stick around
and offer your viewpoint. How do you know you won't reach someone and
bring them closer to God by doing so? I understood this to be a forum
for all of us to share our opinions and search for learning. How can it
be done if everyone shares only one viewpoint? I want to thank the
brother that wrote about the bowl being full before God answers. I have
been having a trying week, and was very upset this morning, because my
prayers, some which have gone on for years, have not been answered. I
was wondering, "Is it worth praying about this anymore?" when I came
across that letter. (By the way, the answer was "yes".)
So, please. Don't feel that we all have to believe JUST as YOU
believe,
at the SAME TIME that you believe, in the SAME MANNER. Christianity
isn't just walking with the Lord, but growing with him as well, and some
of us are just beginning. What example will you set if you flounce out
of this forum, petulant, because we don't all agree with you? Perhaps,
you need to try a different tack to get your point across.---yp
Jay
be blessed
if there were no butter, there would be no margarine..
if no potatoes, no instant potatoes,
if no cream, no imitation cream.
if no tongues, no false tongues..etc.
the fact that there abounds "false" prove the genuine it real.
Love you
Prophet Paul
Brother Jay,
You present an interesting question. Let me couch it in personal
experiential terms. I have been to Haiti, and while there, I personally
witnessed Haitian voodoo priests speaking in tongues. I have also know
of
Mormons who speak in tongues.
So, in what sense could tongue-speaking be conclusive evidence of the
presence, let alone the baptism, of the Holy Spirit? My conclusion is
that
it could not possibly be.
Now, the question of whether these persons are pseudo-speakers or
falsely
filled, there is not enough evidence to tell.
One other point that I might make, in reference to what you said
concerning
the group coming to the same conclusions democratically. We must be
careful
here not to confuse majority with the Holy Spirit. A majority opinion,
even
be it unanimous, does not necessarily reflect the will of God, or the
truth
of God. Remember there were only 2 spies who returned with a report
pleasing
to God, the other 10 focused on the giants in the land, and as a result,
the
Israelites spent 40 years wandering around the desert burying their
dead.
I say this not to be contentious, but as a gentle and loving reminder
that
we can sometimes get puffed up with our own self-importance. After all,
the
consensus among a group of Jehovah's Witnesses is definitely that Jesus
Christ is not divine, but that does not change the biblical truth that
is
very God.
Yours in His service,
Dr. Jesse W. Sellers
February 2, 2000
I must say that I cannot agree that you must have tongues as evidence of
being filled with the Spirit. Tongues may be just a sign to us, but I do
not think it a necessity to indicate we have been filled. The Baptism in
the Holy Ghost comes with the power to serve God. Tongues are important
to the body, all the gifts are important but when one is used to give
proof to the exclusion of the others, then that is where the error lies.
Some people get locked onto a single verse and do not have eyes to see
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