Communion of Saints

October 11, 2000

When Jesus at the cross said "it is finished," there is a certain finality in that, it is the reconciliation with God and man that was lost when Adam sinned; through grace and forgiveness, we have regained the innocence that we had from the beginning. We still have the Adamic nature within us in the flesh but the penalty is gone and the seed of death is transformed to life. Jesus came to give us that life and it starts the very day that we accept Him and become partakers of the promise of eternal life. "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." We know that there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death and the communion of saints is a spiritual connection. To be like Christ is to take upon ourselves a spiritual nature. When Adam sinned, did he die that very day? It was not physical death that day, Adam lived for over 900 years, it was spiritual death. The serpent told Eve "Ye shall not surely die." Satan lied, and he has been lying to mankind ever since. Our eternal nature has been restored to us when Jesus came to be our sacrifice and fulfil the law.

The question of the Communion of Saints is something that most of us seem to agree on but not without more questions, some reservations and qualifications. Bill begins the discussion with an initial agreement but with some challenging questions that I should deal with first and then the others'. RevDeb considers the communion of saints as "obvious" as both alive and in heaven as part of the Body of Christ. Edwin stills feels the presence of his departed wife with an unchanged relationship. Chuckler gives an historical Catholic perspective. Karen reminds us that Jesus has set the captives free and that those asleep await a bodily resurrection and is dimensional. Discernment is given us by Peter who reminds us that we are not communing with the "dead." Maria believes that the spirit rests in the grave until resurrection, Audette feels the presence of the Lord and the saints also in a "certain dimension," Woody wrestles with the question but is open to it and finally Dan believes that the immortal soul doctrine to be the oldest lie in the book.

First of all is the question of King Saul. When Saul consulted the witch of Endor with the "familiar spirit," he was breaking the law of Moses. Even so, Samuel did appear to Saul with the words that Saul and his sons would also join him the next day. Samuel had "cometh up" which would mean up out of the grave, not from heaven - this all being under the Old Covenant. But Saul had never heard the words of Jesus that "I am the resurrection and the life." Jesus had not yet been to the cross, or rose from the grave or ascended into heaven. In heaven, we will reach the fullness of the image of God, "We know that when He appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is, (1 John 3). This means that we will be timeless and as the angels. All part of the new covenant.

Two Old Testament figures, Moses and Elijah appeared before Jesus and the disciples. We know that Elijah and Enoch were taken up into heaven and through tradition of the apocryphal book of the Assumption of Moses, he was as well. Matthew 27:50: "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Occurrences like these are given as an example for us and to increase our faith. If allowed by God to happen, they must be for a reason and we must accept them. When the writer of Hebrews (12:1) speaks of us being "compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses," he is speaking of the Old Testament saints. Paul would "rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Eternal life does not begin with a bodily resurrection, it begins as soon as we are born again, in this life. There is an insistence by only a few that the spirits of believers gone on are still in the grave. I mentioned last time of time and eternity. "Those that sleep" in the Lord are not spiritually dead but have undergone bodily death. We cannot believe that the spirits of the saints are in the grave no matter what kind of bodily resurrection awaits us at the last trump.

The reservations and qualifications that must be insisted upon is the difference between devotion and reverence from worship of saints. There is no question that the communion of saints have been abused and misunderstood from both sides of the issue. Only God is deserving of our worship but credit, honor and reverence are due the saints that are now in the likeness of God Himself. The issues of icons and statues are problems in themselves but the biggest problem is that many Protestants threw the whole idea of this communion unity out the window with the proverbial baby and the bath water in the insistence to withdraw from everything Roman. We must believe that there is no difference between the spiritual life of the believer in human life and the hereafter short of the corruption of the flesh. There is no difference in the eyes of God between the church militant (saints here on earth) and the church triumphant (those gone on to be with the Lord in heaven.) All who have partaken of eternal live are of the same spirit, have defeated death and cannot spiritually die. It is also necessary for us to walk in the truth. Are we to think that we must wait for heaven to be established? Luke 15:7, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

We are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:19-22.

It is additionally mentioned by one that the first resurrection begins before the seven year tribulation. This is not something which should divide us but I believe that the first resurrection is as the last trumpet is sounded which is after satan is bound (1 Corinthians 15:52 and Revelation 20:1-6). Before this time, Revelation 6 shows those slain for the word of God dressed in white robes. These saints are not in heaven just to do nothing and play on their harps, they are actively interceding on our behalf with the angels and elders.

Communion of the Saints as the Lord's Supper is also mentioned. The Eucharist symbolizes the unity of the saints as the Body and Blood of Christ. (More at The Greek for communion is "koinonia," which has also been translated as fellowship. The fellowship of the saints can include many things but when we refer to the communion of the saints in the Apostle's Creed, we are not referring to the Lord's Supper in any way except where we are in fellowship together in the observance as the entire Body of Christ, which is holy and catholic (universal). Christ's body includes the whole body, past, present and future - INCLUDING the church triumphant. No part of Jesus' body is dead awaiting to be made alive, He is complete and fully resurrected. As we are quickened, we are made part of His living body for all eternity.

To think that a petition for a saint to intercede for us is idolatry is foolishness. Those of you with an intercessory gift know how important it is for us to ask prayers for each other. We know that we will be as the angels which are in heaven and we also know that angels intercede for us and watch over us and in Revelation 8 we see that angels offers our prayers upon the altar. James writes that "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much," how much more then, the glorified saints abiding in His presence.

Our unity includes the love and fellowship of the entire body of Christ and that includes Roman Catholic believers but will exclude Catholic haters as well as Protestant haters or Orthodox haters and Pentecostal haters. We are known for our love, not for our dogmatic assertions, disunity and doctrinal schisms. The Lord is still working on all of us to be made into His likeness and image to be the holy and perfected Bride of Christ. As loving saints of God, we are able to intercede for the brethren and that includes those that are in heaven now. The communion of saints is the completed unity of those that are of the household of faith and love. Love demands complete unity and unity demands complete love.

Let us love one another.



I am very grateful for this edition of your e-mail. It really clears up something that was bugging me about all of the talk about the final days and judgement. That something was that the more we focus in on those things, the more confusing it becomes - sort of like in the old testament when the people were building the tower of Babel and the Lord came down and confused their speech. It was highly comforting to see the phrase, "it is not what you know, but who you know" when it comes down to the final judgement.

At the risk of being ignorant, Jay, I will confront your question about the communion of saints. In the old testament when King Saul sought the services of the "seer" in order to consult with Samuel, we learned that it is wrong for us to do such things. Even before that, in Leviticus, we learn that it is not God's will for us to consult with the dead. Further into the new testament, we see Jesus saying "...For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will." (Matthew 5:21) Further down we read, "...The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (Matthew 5:25) God is the God of the living - not the dead.

If we are communing with "saints" they are living - not dead. If, then, we are praying to God in the Spirit - which is what Jesus tells us to do, and if, our prayers are in accordance with God's will, I am in agreement with you that we are "communing with the saints." Incidentally, Jay, in the Apostle's Creed, I think you should mention that the sentence before the "communing" sentence states that, "The third day He arose from the dead; He ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the Father Almighty, from thence to judge the quick and the dead." I believe that it would make things a little easier to digest this wonderful meat that you provide. I've still got baby teeth, you know? Overlooking that powerful statement could cause one to not have a frame of reference from which to work.

I love this diet, brother!

Bill Caraway

One final word on the Judgement...
As you know, we continually seek things that we have need of in our lives - understanding being one of them. I know that we are moving on from this subject, but I just wanted to let you know that Psalm 50 poses a very interesting final word on "The Judgement." I immediately thought of you and the members of the group while I was reading it. Please share your thoughts on it if you get a moment. It is awesome - as are all things of God. Be blessed!!


Psalms 50:1 ķA Psalm of Asaph. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

( Been offline for ages due to ISP/Backbone Provider Problems, just arrived in time for this confusing one! )
I have always been baffled by the fact that there is so much confusion, and so many differing opinions on this subject ( as well as others ).
My understanding of it is this:

  1. 1st Resurrection: when the Lord returns ( Rapture ), both those Believers who are ALIVE at the time, and those believers who are DEAD will be taken up, or 'translated' to be with Him. This means every Believer from the beginning of time, up until that point: ( i.e.: their physical bodies rise from the earth; their spirits are already alive and in Heaven. Who knows exactly how, but their spirits get together with their bodies again

  2. Tribulation Period follows this event. There WILL be some who live during this period who shall BECOME believers and followers of Jesus Christ, who shall also go to Heaven (in spirit) when they die. The Bible also says that there will be some alive who are Believers when the Dragon and the Beast are Worshipped, and that ALL whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life ( Believers ) SHALL worship the Beast, receive his mark, etc. The Bible also says that an Angel shall go about the earth and proclaim and preach the Gospel.

  3. 2nd Resurrection and Great White Throne Judgement: When all the DEAD shall appear before the Throne. It appears that this is referring to those DEAD who have never been Believers, who never did accept the Great Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life. The Books with their earthly deeds/sins are opened, and since their names are NOT in the Lamb's Book of Life, they are then judged according to the flesh. Question: If those who were 'taken up from their graves' or 'translated while still living', are 'Resurrected' ( ALIVE ), are they still considered 'Dead'? I don't think so. ( It simply does not make sense to think that those Believers who have gone to Heaven, should then be made to come under Judgement according to their deeds. )

    I believe, for the Believer, however, that this will be primarily a time of receiving REWARDS, rather than punishment. ( We are told that ALL can be forgiven, if we repent and ask in Jesus Name. We are further told that our sins 'are thrown into the bottom of the sea, and remembered no more. That means that IF we have repented, and asked forgiveness, we are CLEAR. ( Human Nature being what it is, and knowing that we are not perfect, I imagine we all will have SOMETHING ,at the time of our death, that we did not recognize as sin, or something that we wrestled with, or something we flat-out 'committed', and did not specifically ask forgiveness for. I believe this will be revealed, we will repent of it ( will be given the choice ), but the 'punishment' for it will be that we will be made to fully understand the nature of it, complete with every possible emotion, feeling, thought, and also be made to know and experience, without measure, how this effects the Lord, the Holy Spirit, and all of Heaven itself.

  4. Communion of all Saints, both Alive and Dead, as part of the Body of Christ: I think this is obvious. The Believers who are not presently here in the flesh, are still part of the Body of Christ, and are still alive. They pray for the Body, and specifically for their Loved Ones still on Earth. ( This does NOT mean we are to attempt to chat with them. I believe that we are not permitted to do this, and they are not permitted to talk to us at will. Because of this, I personally do not believe that a spirit or 'ghost' seen long after the person's death, IS that person's spirit at all, but a Demon masquerading as that person. It would create Havoc if we all were hanging around on earth, or could travel freely between Heaven and Earth. ( I do, however, believe it is possible, that a person could contact one of the living; ONLY at the Will of the Lord, ONLY with His Permission, or at His Command. )

  5. 144,000: This one is a Mystery. The ONLY thing the Bible says about them, is that they are virgin males, 12 from each Tribe of Israel. We don't know if this means the Ancient Tribes of Israel, or includes those later descendants from those Tribes, or both. They are called "Firstfruits of God", but we are not told why.


For what it is worth, I would like to answer the part about the communion of saints not with a theological argument but with a brief testimony. When the Lord called me to the apostolic ministry, He told me that I would be often separated from my family. I did not at first know that this would involve leaving a couple of my children behind in the States when we went overseas. I did not know that my wife would be an invalid and unable to go off on trips with me when I was travelling in and out of jungles all over a large country. For months at a time we were not able to use any natural means of communication. When amazing things happened in our ministry and we were basically standing and watching in amazement, I never knew if I was actually doing anything, or was it just Barbara's prayers. I would have to say that the reality of our relationship and our fellowship with each other in the Spirit was not in any way disturbed by the separation. She knew what I was facing, and I knew she was praying day by day. We were as close to one another as we were with Jesus. Now, she and I have been separated by death for over twenty years, and I can testify that the closeness of our relationship has not been noticeably disturbed.

I know from years of experience that Christians are very intimately and effectively linked in prayer. When I pray for them, I generally have a pretty clear concept of what is happening in their lives. If I pray for them according to the will of God, stuff happens. Since we all have been raised with Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places, I see no reason even to imagine that physical separation or physical death will greatly change this relationship.
In His Love, Edwin Stube

Hi Jay:

Hi everyone . . i'm a newbie here . . . i'm gonna make an attempt at the following:

Communion of Saints

Well, this topic probably touches off more emotional reactions between Protestants and the ancient traditions (Roman Catholic (me) and Eastern Orthodox) than any other doctrine/practices. There are many reasons for this. Very often it is because evangelicals (fundies ;o) ) observe a particular PRACTICE of popular piety among some catholics (pope-sters) that is indeed idolatrous. The wrong assumption that then gets made is that all catholics practice this idolatry, and all who fall into these practices do so because it is consistent with the teaching of the catholic church. That is an absolutely fallacious assumption. Nothing is further from the truth. One only needs to read the summary of catholic beliefs (Catechism of the Catholic Church) to see that such a practice is "anathema" to us. Consequently, we see that these christians have fallen into a presumptuous understanding of catholic (or E. orthodox, "bearded wonders") doctrine, not based on responsible research of official church documents, but because of hasty conclusions which are facilitated by a convenient view of unfamiliar traditions. I'd like to share how I understand the communion of saints, what it means to me today, and what I do as a result of those beliefs, and how improper piety may have developed.

In 325 AD, our forefathers (the most important bishops in Christendom) met as an ecumenical Council in Nice to address numerous issues, for example, one of these was dealing with Arianism. The purpose of the Councils in defining doctrine and dogma, has never been to promote novel dogma, but to maintain those beliefs which were always there from the beginning. Councils never met for the purpose of theological invention, but for the purpose of clarifying and therefore definitively expressing the Apostolic Tradition (i.e. Apostolic understanding of the Christian Faith, which is separate from the Scriptures). One of the great things that emerged from this meeting was the Nicean Creed. Remember, the year is 325 A.D. . . . and the creed expressed the lowest common (and necessary!) denominator for all of Christendom. One of the statements of the creed is "We believe in the communion of saints . . ."

Scripture tells us:

  1. "God planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect (sharing in the effects of the Paschal sacrifice, my comments). Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses (the departed saints, Heb. 11:40, 12:1) . . . ," it tells us
  2. that the bowls of incense are offered to the Lamb (Rev. 5), which are the prayers of the saints (no distinction being made between those on earth or those in heaven),
  3. that Jesus as the incarnate Son of God (therefore limited physically by space and time) spoke with departed saints himself . . .Moses and Elijah, on the Mount of Transfiguration
  4. there is more, but my fingers will get tired . .

So there is Scriptural precedent that the departed saints share in the 1) New Testament Kingdom and observe the goings on here (otherwise they would not be called witnesses), 2) That their prayers and ours (intercessions) are offered together to God, 3) that the INCARNATE Jesus of Nazareth himself, communicated with the Living departed Saints, Moses and Elijah.

So what is all this "praying to the Saints" stuff about? First of all, it should NOT be worship . . . ever. Do some people fall into that? Yes. That is condemned by Scripture and what Catholics and E. Orthodox call "sacred tradition." I do pray to some favorite departed saints . . Elijah, John the Baptist, St. Patrick, St. Francis and even the Lord's mother, Mary. What I do, is simply ask them to pray for me in a given situation, just like I would ask you to pray for me. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not worship. All of these individuals are created beings, so I would never do that. But here is the really, REALLY cool and awesome part . . Heb. 7:24-25 "but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore, he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because HE ALWAYS LIVES TO INTERCEDE FOR THEM." I hope you have goosebumps. You see He is the primary intercessor, and He answers our prayers . . . the Saints, even Mary, does not. They just intercede, and bring the request to HIM who constantly intercedes and answers those prayers for us! He alone, not they, are the source of blessing and Life.

Remember, according to Haggai 2 and Hebrews 12:26-29 . . ."Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens. The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken - that is, created things - so that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and SO WORSHIP GOD ACCEPTABLY WITH REVERENCE AND AWE, for our "God is a consuming fire." No created being compares with Him in any way.

So . . where do these misapplied pietistic practices of many Catholics come from? I have a theory. From the beginning (see the earliest Church Fathers), there have been bishops, priests and deacons. These offices existed and were undoubtedly filled with men who were humble servants who demonstrated the hearts of martyrs to their people first (they were servants) . . . and the condition of their hearts (which already had died to themselves) were made a public display by the authorities as these men incarnated the martyrdom which already existed within them. As time went on, the church assumed more and more civil authority, church leadership was corrupted by lust for power . . . and what was a legitimate office (I believe always was, is and will be legitimate) was populated by men with carnal priorities. The priesthood and bishoprics became seats of royalty. A caste system emerged, which we are still battling. So a people that already felt separated from God by their sins, became more estranged from the clergy (what I believe you all are calling the result of the Spirit of Nicolaitanism) . . . thus amplifying their perception of separateness from God. By the middle ages, the popular tongue was no longer Latin (The mass was originally celebrated in greek . . by 300-400 AD, the laity didn't speak greek anymore, so it was changed to the vulgar language of the people, Latin (which is why Jerome's translation of the Scriptures is called the Latin Vulgate)), so what went on in church became even more mysterious and separate . . . and connection with God must have seemed incomprehensible. If you can't connect with God . . . if you cannot connect with the clergy . . . the next option . . was the communion of saints . . elevated to a place that became unhealthy, because the laity transferred an affection to the saints that rightfully belonged to God alone.

If you have read to the bottom of this tome . . . you demonstrate a profound amount of Christian virtue . . .patience

May the Lord pour dumptruck loads of His Holy Spirit on all of you!!!


Dear Jay and greetings to all, From the words of the prophet Hosea, we should "sow to ourselves in righteousness, we'll reap in mercy. Break up your fallow ground...It's time to seek the Lord 'til HE comes, He'll rain His righteousness on us"....and that is how we are to live. Every moment of every day, sowing the seeds of righteousness, truth, justice and the gospel of our Lord Jesus....those seeds will grow and bear fruit and be the harvest we will reap in the future (whenever that may happen). That harvest is sown in the hearts of men, and if the ground is broken and "unfallowed" the seeds will grow. The water will be able to penetrate and life will come forth.

As far as the communion of saints, and heaven and so forth. I believe Heaven is dimensional as much as it is "some place up there". It also seems to me, as I am preparing at this moment to teach a woman's Bible Study group from Genesis one and two, that God has some kind of physical form and that He has HANDS, and every kind of emotion we do, and that we are created IN HIS IMAGE. Before Adam and Eve fell, they "walked with God every day in the cool of the day" and they obviously saw HIM face to face, heard him, touched HIM and were able to SEE HIM with their physical senses as well as with their "spiritual" ones. There is, as you say, another place where we are "going" that is an actual physical realm of existence. Where angels dwell around the THRONE of GOD and sing heavenly praises night and day, and where people like Moses, Elijah and others are seated around that place as elders. (they even appeared in physical form to talk to Jesus while He was here on earth) We know that angels have physical forms that are like those we have, because we are told to entertain strangers not knowing if they could be angels who have come here from God. Angels visited Abraham, Lot and others as well as Elizabeth and Mary and Peter later on. Many people have "seen" them even in our own time, or "heard" them with their physical sense of hearing.

All living things have their being IN GOD and the LIGHT of HIS LOVE and HIS WORD is not physical, even when Jesus returns to Jerusalem (the LIGHT in the CITY will be the LIGHT OF THE SON OF GOD). HE IS THE LIGHT and the sun is actually a physical expression of HIS LIGHT. If we read Genesis, the first three books, we see that God spoke into existence first "LET THERE BE LIGHT" and there was LIGHT, then He later created the sun, the moon, the stars and all that have life in the earth (every living creature) through HIS SPOKEN WORD. Only man was MADE and after FORMING MAN out of the dust of the earth, God breathed a living soul into him. It is fascinating to me that when we revive a person through CPR, that is what we do. We literally breathe life back into them, our souls to theirs, and we re-ignite the "fire" of life somehow by blowing it back into existence within a body much the same way we would blow on coals to re-ignite them.

After Jesus died, He was resurrected by God the Father and the life within HIM was re-ignited, in HIS BODY that had once been walking around Israel as a flesh and blood form and had not yet ascended. He said we will receive the same glorified bodies when HE returns. He will "raise up" those who are "asleep" and catch together in the air those who are still walking around here doing His will and laboring in His fields, and together we will all receive NEW and GLORIFIED BODIES that are PERFECTLY FORMED IN HIS IMAGE and JUST LIKE HIS! WE SHALL ALL BE LIKE HIM, BODY, MIND AND SOUL! But while Jesus' body "slept" in the grave (which is the same word HE used to describe Lazarus' physical condition when he was "dead" and in the grave physically), He descended into hell and preached to those who had been held captive there since the flood. So He had not yet gone back to Heaven, his soul was in hell, just as it had once as fully dwelt in His body here on earth. We are not told if He actually was experiencing the torments of hell while there, only that He set the captives free and preached while He was there. He gave them a chance to repent, and he set the souls of all who wanted to be let go free to leave hell (wow! Can you imagine the fury of Satan at that point? and he was powerless to stop those souls from leaving whatever tortures they had been subjected to in that realm, NO LONGER HIS SLAVES or PRISONERS.)

These are mysteries, but I do believe we have some keys here and some of what I have understood I am not necessarily to share, because I think the Lord Himself needs to reveal these things by His Spirit and He Himself gives "wisdom" to ALL WHO ASK, He is not partial We are each one HIS children and nothing is left hidden from us. He just gives us what we can handle, a little at a time, and soon the picture is complete as all the pieces are fit together in time and with patience on our part. It's up to us all individually to seek Him diligently and allow His Holy Spirit within us to lead and guide us into all TRUTH. Since we have the Holy Spirit and the testimony of both prophets and saints, we will bear witness to THAT SAME truth as it is revealed through each other (we all see in part and prophesy in part)...As we put each part in place the picture will get clearer and clearer for us. Could it be that our spirits are already WITH THE LORD? "I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ lives IN ME, and the life that I now live I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. If you then be risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where CHRIST SITS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, set your mind on things above and not on things of the earth, for YOU ARE DEAD and your life is HIDDEN WITH CHRIST IN GOD"...words written by the Apostle Paul to the Church in Galatia. I believe they apply to us today as well.

The communion of the saints is not so much a case of their abiding here in spirit with us on earth so much as we abide in spirit with THEM in HEAVEN, which is pretty clear through this passage, because it is CHRIST who dwells in us ALL! According to this, we are ALREADY risen with CHRIST but there are conditions that apply to this if it will be reality to us. IF you are crucified with Christ and have died to the lusts of your flesh and the world's hold on you. IF your mind is stayed on the LORD and on things which are above, not on things of this earth. So, it is really OUR choice where we dwell while our bodies are still moving and having their being here IN this world. We don't HAVE to be OF it. Then we are in communion with the Saints. We are all the BODY OF CHRIST, whether here in this present world or having gone on to Glory, our spirits abide IN HIM and THROUGH HIM and WITH HIM....the only thing that prevents us from having the same kind of success here that Jesus had, the Apostles had and so many of our very simple, common brothers and sisters are presently witnessing throughout the rest of the earth is OUR OWN BELIEF SYSTEM....Do we believe in our hearts what we confess with our mouths? That is the key to our salvation.

The resurrection of the "dead" and the saints that are asleep is a bodily resurrection. The dry bones spoken of in Ezekiel that rise up and come together and are covered with flesh once again. The GLORIFIED bodies that won't die. Before the flood, men lived to be over a thousand years old. Could it have to do with this? The thousand year reign that is, where souls in their new bodies and new earth will be once again tested after Satan has been allowed a season to tempt them and see if they will BELIEVE GOD THIS TIME? I don't really know that for sure, I don't claim to understand such high and lofty things. But I do know this, it is definitely OUR CHOICE as to WHO WE OBEY, who we TRUST and WHO WE BELIEVE now, in the world to come, and forever. LIFE does not end when bodies die, that is an obvious scientific fact, it only "changes" forms. We are HIS WORKMANSHIP, HIS MASTERPIECE, HIS DELIGHT, THE WORK OF HIS HANDS (not only spoken into existence but MADE in HIS LIKENESS)....We need to be filled with AWE in reality, just blessing God with every breath we have and THANKING HIM night and day for the incredible GLORY HE has poured out in us and through us as we are GIVEN HIS SPIRIT, and as HE makes us the LIGHT of the world (as HE IS) by shining through us and letting our good works be seen by men. IN TRUTH, our actions speak much louder than our words as to what is really in our hearts and what we believe THERE. I asked the Lord to show me the difference between "preaching" and "teaching" and I believe this was HIS answer. We preach to the heart, we teach the mind, but the heart is where men are CONVERTED. It is where we are "plugged into God, our POWER source" and where the LIGHT comes forth and the issues of life flow from. THE SEAT OF THE SOUL, where our bodies and souls connect. OUR CENTER, where GOD DWELLS IN US. Could it be that is why Adam and Eve died the day they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Could it be that at that point they chose to believe a lie instead of the truth and broke fellowship with God, became DISCONNECTED from the LIFE SOURCE in their souls?

If our hearts stop beating, our brains are of no use at all. There is no life. It's where we LOVE (feel) from. (can you imagine handing out brain shaped valentines?) Our heart beats faster when we are "in love" or even when we are "afraid" because our emotions are so connected to our hearts. Just imagine a computer with the biggest "brain" possible but now modem or no power source or no way of connecting it to the power that makes it "alive" so to speak. What good would it be? Or our screens without light to see the words printed on them, the things brought up from the brain of our computer. I think it's how we work as well, man can only imitate what God has already DONE. The mind is a good way to rule over our emotions, to say, "stop and think and look before you leap" but the heart is the only way the mind can be connected to the real source of life for the body. Apart from the heart, there is no life. It's our LIGHT SOURCE so to speak. WE are CREATED for GOOD WORKS IN we can all sing now "This little light of mine" and BE (as George once reminded us all) the THOUSAND POINTS OF LIGHT that lights up the WHOLE WORLD and fills it with HIS GLORY....OUR CHOICE....let's make HIS HEART SING WITH GLADNESS and REJOICING OVER US....THAT is forever you all, Karen

>The bible teaches three heavens. The first heaven is the firmament that
>we can see by looking up, the second is the starry heavens beyond our
>world and the third heaven is in the realm of God.

The bible talks about the third heaven, which is where Paul seems to have gone or had a vision of.

Presume that this is the highest (unless we would admit a fourth or fifth, etc) this is the heaven that satan was cast out of along with a third of the angels. Admit the first is the physical heavens that declare the glory of God (Psalm 19) it also includes the sun moon and stars etc.

Then the second heaven is the invisible spiritual realm all around us, through which angels and demons move, and at times communicate with humans.

Re. the communion of saints, it should be clearly understood that this does not mean nor should be taken to imply communication with the dead, either the dead in Christ or those dead "outside"

That those who are dead "in Christ" are conscious/aware is no more (or less) than to say that they enjoy the presence of the Lord. It is also true they, like us, are "part of the one loaf, because they all partake of the one bread"; this is the meaning of the term "communion of the saints"

There is an old hymn that expresses this very well, The Church's One Foundation.

The Church's One Foundation
Is Jesus Christ her Lord
She is His new creation
By water and the word
>From heav'n he came and sought her
To be his holy bride
With His own blood He bought her
And for her life He died

Elect from every nation
Yet one o'er all the earth
Her charter of salvation
One faith, one Lord, one birth
One holy name she blesses
Partakes one Holy Food
And to one hope she presses
With every grace endued

Yet she on earth has union
With God the Three in One
And mystic sweet communion
With those whose rest is won
O happy ones and holy,
Lord give us grace that we
Like them the meek and lowly
On high may dwell with thee

The mystic communion is the sharing in the "One Bread" of 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 Which in context is referencing communion, the Lord's supper

Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

The communion we share is with "The saints of all ages" and of all those alive today, and so the many are one in Christ; it is not a communication between living and resurrected saints.

Peter Crowson

Hi Jay,
You know God is, a God of the living and not the dead, and God speaks to the living. The dead are in a grave and the spirit is in that grave until the master (God) sends Yahsua (Jesus) back. Everyone just about, thinks that hell is full of fire now and lucifer is in it. yes lucifer's place is hell. but in the book of Job we see that Lucifer (satan) moves to and fro within the earth and that is also today. Job 1 ver 7) fire will not be in Hell until the day come that The Master (Jesus put it there) fire and brimstone. I can only tell you what God told me Jay, and maybe this can explain it a little better. I ask God one day if Hell exists and HE said to me "There is a hell its below as it is a heaven above. For those that are not of me will go to the pits of hell, but my people I have prepared a place for them which is heaven.' For there will be fire and brimstone on the day of judgement, I will judge the people for many will sink into hell and they will be burned with fire and brimstone. this only prove it self when jesus shows us this in (Luke ch. 16 verse 24) the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. God say that the torment is the pain. Just think of the worst pain a person can endure. you can only imagine how it would feel when worms are eating the body and you are still alive. O Give Thanks Unto The Lord For He Is Good For His mercies Endureth For Ever.
God bless (smile)

Maria Minus

Dear Jay,

During praise and worship at church today - the worship was so awesome, the Holy Spirit was so present, that I felt like we were entering into the throne room in heaven and worshiping there with the saints, the elders the angels and the creatures flying around the throne and I had a thought from the Spirit that this may be what you were referring to. No we don't communicate with them but when we enter into a certain dimension of worship with the Holy Spirit we really do seem to lose our physical bodies and are worshiping in the spirit realm and in those times we may in fact be in communion with the saints and the Spirit convicted me today during this time and spoke specifically about this during my most rapturous moments of praise.

Love, Audette


This is a powerful argument. 2 things, Rick Joyner in his book the Final Quest, describes 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heaven in terms of chronological distinctiveness rather than so much physical distinctiveness. So in a sense the first heaven is the heaven that was, the 2nd heaven is the heaven that is, and the third heaven is the heaven that will be. Now given that einstein wasn't a Christian like Galileo and Newton and some of the other great physicists I don't know how trustworthy his finds are.

But in his theory of relativity he describes space and time, both as quantifiable aspects of nature that interact with one another, such that there is a space-time continuum. This is interesting, only in the sense that it forces us more and more to have that blind and humble faith, wherein we embrace the infinite possibilities of God in a way that is biblically responsible.

In regards to the communion of saints, I struggle with this. I really love the idea talking to Peter or Paul and have done it, yet at the same time I believe that there is a scripture which refers to the martyrs crying up to the Lord from under an altar. In addition, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" This suggests that there were dead in Christ that were "still sleeping" and that they would not rise until the final trump. Is it not possible for one to be alive and yet still sleeping? What are the verses that you use to corroborate the theory that those dead with Christ have already risen to heaven besides the truth from the Gospels that God is God of the Living and not of the dead? I love to embrace possibilities, and so I stand pretty open to the idea of the 'communion of the saints' in Catholic dogma, I also in some ways am also open to the idea of purgatory to which 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 seems to give some credence. So again, I'm open, but I still have wrestles the few times that I have openly thanked Peter and Paul for all that they did in Christ. I wonder, Are they in Heaven hearing me, are they fallen asleep, waiting to be called up, are they both?, are they up in Heaven whereas certain other saints are still sleeping? Which might be suggested by Paul's statement, "We shall not all sleep". So many mysteries, so many possibilities. As you said however, there's only one Jesus and he's the key. God Bless you for the work that your doing. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:58. Thanks Again,

The (WoodyandMachel)Man

Dear Jay and Group,

I would like to know what your thoughts are on the 39 times in the Old Testament in which God is said to "repent." In most all these cases, a real change in the future is said to occur in the texts themselves.

The first such is in Gen. 6:6, in which God is said to "be sorry that he had made man," and to repent, and decide to destroy mankind through the flood. My question is, how could God be sorry, regretful, and repent over something He knew full well would happen since the before the beginning of time? This same question holds true for all the times in which God is said to repent or change his mind.

Each time, this is described as a divine reaction to human unfaithfulness or faithfulness, as in 2 Chron 7:14, and Jonah 3:10, where it says, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

2 Kings 20 is perhaps the biggest of all these things--God reverses his previous decision to end King Hezekiah's life, all apparently simply because Hezekiah prayed and pleaded with God.

Does not this sort of thing cause us to have to rethink our ideas of eternity, time, the "eternal now" concept, etc.?

Would love to hear some responses. If it is out of order here for me to ask this, I am sorry. This is something that has intrigued me for years. I do understand the issue is causing quite a lot of ripples within the academic theological world today.

God bless,


Hello Jay, I thank you very much for responding to me and so quickly (smile) God bless you. I live in miami florida. I do have a 5 fold ministry, I am a prophetess, have been ministering for the past 5 yrs, enjoying every moment of it, I love the Lord. The Lord uses me in a very unusual way, O give thanks unto the Lord for He is Good . thank you and God Bless (smile)







Thanks for your response Jay.

I am 45, and saved 14 years ago, instructed by Baptists, and healed by faith of a incurable sickness, baptized in The Holy Spirit by faith, currently teaching 8 people every wednesday in matters of the Kingdom. Since my healing and filling of the Spirit, I have been preaching, promoting, and convincing believers regarding Healing, prosperity and well been for each believer and his family, as well as the battle of faith. I do not belong to any church but the Church of Jesus Christ , but I deeply respect Mr Kenneth E Hagin, Who I consider to the matter my leader. I consider many rules imposed by Church leaders as manmade rules not according to Christ and therefore directly against the freedom bought in there cruz.

I think many christians are been led by dictators instead of pastors, and this due to the lack of commitment of each individual to submit directly to the guidance of the Spirit.

I believe that christianity must be appealing to nonbelievers instead of repelling, nobody wants to be like a christian who is defeated always seek, in poverty and slave on other's rules like : Don't think, don't read, don't watch TV, or Theater or anything, feeling guilty, they even prohibit drinking wine others even coffee.

I am in favor of unity but also in favor of a Victorious Church. Mario Rippa

Greetings brother Jay!

I commend you on the discussion group and on your overall attitude toward controversy, humility and unity. It's like I always say, If there's anything WORTH arguing about it's the Word of God! Part of maturing spiritually is to be able to dialogue with others without getting offended. I think your discussion group promotes that.

I founded FULFILLMENT MINISTRIES in 1994. The word FULFILLMENT speaks of Bible prophecy and of the total Christian experience. You can ask for my monthly Fulfillment Newsletter. I will also inform you of current tape offers in the future. Also, a web page is presently being renovated to include an archive of past newsletters, and I'll let you know when that is ready.

Your present discussion is hot on the heels of a recent 2 part article I did entitled "IF THERE BE NO RESURRECTION" (Paul's quote in I Cor.15:13). I will send you those articles for your review.

In your present discussion you mention a number of times that God is the God of the living in accordance with Matthew 22:32. In essence, you are defending the immortal soul doctrine, which I contend is literally the oldest lie in the book, being first told by the serpent in the beginning of time - "You will NOT surely (really) die." (Gen.3:4).

Now let me say that I have never been affiliated with A Seventh Day Adventist Church or the Jw's. My conclusion on what the Bible actually teaches in this regard are the result of the overwhelming testimony of scripture itself.

Regarding Matthew 22:32, the subject is the resurrection. Actually, could it be any plainer?? Jesus said to the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection, "But ABOUT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, have ye not read...God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Jesus was not teaching the Sadducees the immortal soul doctrine, something they probably already believed in in accordance with the Greek mode of thinking. Romans 4:17 says:

"As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead (the resurrection), and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

God called Abraham the father of many nations before a single nation had sprung from his descendents (Gen.17:5). SIMILARLY, the future resurrection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was so firmly guaranteed in the mind of God that Jesus rebuked the Sadducees by referring to God as the God of the living, not the dead. The key to understanding the passage is when Jesus says, "concerning the resurrection of the dead" in verse 31.

Paul taught that "If there be no resurrection of the dead..Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ ARE PERISHED", not enjoying a mansion in the sky! Think about it!

Well that's enough to chew on for now. I look forward to your reply.

A brother in Christ,

Dan Delagrave

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