Communion of Saints
When Jesus at the cross said "it is finished," there is a certain
finality in that, it is the reconciliation with God and man that was
lost when Adam sinned; through grace and forgiveness, we have regained
the innocence that we had from the beginning. We still have the Adamic
nature within us in the flesh but the penalty is gone and the seed of
death is transformed to life. Jesus came to give us that life and it
starts the very day that we accept Him and become partakers of the
promise of eternal life. "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of
every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day
that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." We know that there is a
difference between physical death and spiritual death and the communion
of saints is a spiritual connection. To be like Christ is to take upon
ourselves a spiritual nature. When Adam sinned, did he die that very
day? It was not physical death that day, Adam lived for over 900 years,
it was spiritual death. The serpent told Eve "Ye shall not surely die."
Satan lied, and he has been lying to mankind ever since. Our eternal
nature has been restored to us when Jesus came to be our sacrifice and
fulfil the law.
The question of the Communion of Saints is something that most of us
seem to agree on but not without more questions, some reservations and
qualifications. Bill begins the discussion with an initial agreement but
with some challenging questions that I should deal with first and then
the others'. RevDeb considers the communion of saints as "obvious" as
both alive and in heaven as part of the Body of Christ. Edwin stills
feels the presence of his departed wife with an unchanged relationship.
Chuckler gives an historical Catholic perspective. Karen reminds us that
Jesus has set the captives free and that those asleep await a bodily
resurrection and is dimensional. Discernment is given us by Peter who
reminds us that we are not communing with the "dead." Maria believes
that the spirit rests in the grave until resurrection, Audette feels the
presence of the Lord and the saints also in a "certain dimension," Woody
wrestles with the question but is open to it and finally Dan believes
that the immortal soul doctrine to be the oldest lie in the book.
First of all is the question of King Saul. When Saul consulted the witch
of Endor with the "familiar spirit," he was breaking the law of Moses.
Even so, Samuel did appear to Saul with the words that Saul and his sons
would also join him the next day. Samuel had "cometh up" which would
mean up out of the grave, not from heaven - this all being under the Old
Covenant. But Saul had never heard the words of Jesus that "I am the
resurrection and the life." Jesus had not yet been to the cross, or rose
from the grave or ascended into heaven. In heaven, we will reach the
fullness of the image of God, "We know that when He appears we shall be
like him, for we shall see him as he is, (1 John 3). This means that we
will be timeless and as the angels. All part of the new covenant.
Two Old Testament figures, Moses and Elijah appeared before Jesus and
the disciples. We know that Elijah and Enoch were taken up into heaven
and through tradition of the apocryphal book of the Assumption of Moses,
he was as well. Matthew 27:50: "Jesus, when he had cried again with a
loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the
temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did
quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many
bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves
after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto
many." Occurrences like these are given as an example for us and to
increase our faith. If allowed by God to happen, they must be for a
reason and we must accept them. When the writer of Hebrews (12:1) speaks
of us being "compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses," he is
speaking of the Old Testament saints. Paul would "rather to be absent
from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall
all be made alive." Eternal life does not begin with a bodily
resurrection, it begins as soon as we are born again, in this life.
There is an insistence by only a few that the spirits of believers gone
on are still in the grave. I mentioned last time of time and eternity.
"Those that sleep" in the Lord are not spiritually dead but have
undergone bodily death. We cannot believe that the spirits of the saints
are in the grave no matter what kind of bodily resurrection awaits us at
the last trump.
The reservations and qualifications that must be insisted upon is the
difference between devotion and reverence from worship of saints. There
is no question that the communion of saints have been abused and
misunderstood from both sides of the issue. Only God is deserving of our
worship but credit, honor and reverence are due the saints that are now
in the likeness of God Himself. The issues of icons and statues are
problems in themselves but the biggest problem is that many Protestants
threw the whole idea of this communion unity out the window with the
proverbial baby and the bath water in the insistence to withdraw from
everything Roman. We must believe that there is no difference between
the spiritual life of the believer in human life and the hereafter short
of the corruption of the flesh. There is no difference in the eyes of
God between the church militant (saints here on earth) and the church
triumphant (those gone on to be with the Lord in heaven.) All who have
partaken of eternal live are of the same spirit, have defeated death and
cannot spiritually die. It is also necessary for us to walk in the
truth. Are we to think that we must wait for heaven to be established?
Luke 15:7, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over
one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons,
which need no repentance."
We are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the
saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus
Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building
fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom
ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the
Spirit." Ephesians 2:19-22.
It is additionally mentioned by one that the first resurrection begins
before the seven year tribulation. This is not something which should
divide us but I believe that the first resurrection is as the last
trumpet is sounded which is after satan is bound (1
Corinthians 15:52 and Revelation 20:1-6). Before this time, Revelation 6
shows those slain for the word of God dressed in white robes. These
saints are not in heaven just to do nothing and play on their harps,
they are actively interceding on our behalf with the angels and elders.
Communion of the Saints as the Lord's Supper is also mentioned. The
Eucharist symbolizes the unity of the saints as the Body and Blood of
Christ. (More at http://latter-rain.com/theology/comm.htm). The Greek
for communion is "koinonia," which has also been translated as
fellowship. The fellowship of the saints can include many things but
when we refer to the communion of the saints in the Apostle's Creed, we
are not referring to the Lord's Supper in any way except where we are in
fellowship together in the observance as the entire Body of Christ,
which is holy and catholic (universal). Christ's body includes the whole
body, past, present and future - INCLUDING the church triumphant. No
part of Jesus' body is dead awaiting to be made alive, He is complete
and fully resurrected. As we are quickened, we are made part of His
living body for all eternity.
To think that a petition for a saint to intercede for us is idolatry is
foolishness. Those of you with an intercessory gift know how important
it is for us to ask prayers for each other. We know that we will be as
the angels which are in heaven and we also know that angels intercede
for us and watch over us and in Revelation 8 we see that angels offers
our prayers upon the altar. James writes that "the effectual fervent
prayer of a righteous man availeth much," how much more then, the
glorified saints abiding in His presence.
Our unity includes the love and fellowship of the entire body of Christ
and that includes Roman Catholic believers but will exclude Catholic
haters as well as Protestant haters or Orthodox haters and Pentecostal
haters. We are known for our love, not for our dogmatic assertions,
disunity and doctrinal schisms. The Lord is still working on all of us
to be made into His likeness and image to be the holy and perfected
Bride of Christ. As loving saints of God, we are able to intercede for
the brethren and that includes those that are in heaven now. The
communion of saints is the completed unity of those that are of the
household of faith and love. Love demands complete unity and unity
demands complete love.
Let us love one another.
Jay
Jay,
I am very grateful for this edition of your e-mail. It really clears up
something that was bugging me about all of the talk about the final days
and
judgement. That something was that the more we focus in on those things,
the
more confusing it becomes - sort of like in the old testament when the
people were building the tower of Babel and the Lord came down and
confused
their speech. It was highly comforting to see the phrase, "it is not
what
you know, but who you know" when it comes down to the final judgement.
At the risk of being ignorant, Jay, I will confront your question about
the
communion of saints. In the old testament when King Saul sought the
services
of the "seer" in order to consult with Samuel, we learned that it is
wrong
for us to do such things. Even before that, in Leviticus, we learn that
it
is not God's will for us to consult with the dead. Further into the new
testament, we see Jesus saying "...For as the Father raiseth up the
dead,
and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will." (Matthew
5:21) Further down we read, "...The hour is coming, and now is, when the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall
live."
(Matthew 5:25) God is the God of the living - not the dead.
If we are communing with "saints" they are living - not dead. If, then,
we
are praying to God in the Spirit - which is what Jesus tells us to do,
and
if, our prayers are in accordance with God's will, I am in agreement
with
you that we are "communing with the saints." Incidentally, Jay, in the
Apostle's Creed, I think you should mention that the sentence before the
"communing" sentence states that, "The third day He arose from the dead;
He
ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the Father
Almighty,
from thence to judge the quick and the dead." I believe that it would
make
things a little easier to digest this wonderful meat that you provide.
I've
still got baby teeth, you know? Overlooking that powerful statement
could
cause one to not have a frame of reference from which to work.
I love this diet, brother!
Bill Caraway
One final word on the Judgement...
-------------------
Psalms 50:1 ķA Psalm of Asaph. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath
spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going
down thereof.
Jay,
I believe, for the Believer, however, that this will be primarily a time
of
receiving REWARDS, rather than punishment. ( We are told that ALL can
be
forgiven, if we repent and ask in Jesus Name. We are further told that
our
sins 'are thrown into the bottom of the sea, and remembered no more.
That
means that IF we have repented, and asked forgiveness, we are CLEAR. (
Human
Nature being what it is, and knowing that we are not perfect, I imagine
we
all will have SOMETHING ,at the time of our death, that we did not
recognize
as sin, or something that we wrestled with, or something we flat-out
'committed', and did not specifically ask forgiveness for. I believe
this
will be revealed, we will repent of it ( will be given the choice ), but
the
'punishment' for it will be that we will be made to fully understand the
nature of it, complete with every possible emotion, feeling, thought,
and
also be made to know and experience, without measure, how this effects
the
Lord, the Holy Spirit, and all of Heaven itself.
RevDeb
For what it is worth, I would like to answer the part about the
communion of
saints not with a theological argument but with a brief testimony.
When the Lord called me to the apostolic ministry, He told me that I
would be
often separated from my family. I did not at first know that this would
involve leaving a couple of my children behind in the States when we
went
overseas. I did not know that my wife would be an invalid and unable to
go
off on trips with me when I was travelling in and out of jungles all
over a
large country. For months at a time we were not able to use any natural
means
of communication. When amazing things happened in our ministry and we
were
basically standing and watching in amazement, I never knew if I was
actually
doing anything, or was it just Barbara's prayers. I would have to say
that
the reality of our relationship and our fellowship with each other in
the
Spirit was not in any way disturbed by the separation. She knew what I
was
facing, and I knew she was praying day by day. We were as close to one
another as we were with Jesus. Now, she and I have been separated by
death
for over twenty years, and I can testify that the closeness of our
relationship has not been noticeably disturbed.
I know from years of experience that Christians are very intimately and
effectively linked in prayer. When I pray for them, I generally have a
pretty
clear concept of what is happening in their lives. If I pray for them
according to the will of God, stuff happens. Since we all have been
raised
with Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places, I see no reason even
to
imagine that physical separation or physical death will greatly change
this
relationship.
Hi Jay:
Hi everyone . . i'm a newbie here . . . i'm gonna make an attempt at the
following:
Communion of Saints
Well, this topic probably touches off more emotional reactions between
Protestants and the ancient traditions (Roman Catholic (me) and Eastern
Orthodox) than any other doctrine/practices. There are many reasons for
this. Very often it is because evangelicals (fundies ;o) ) observe a
particular PRACTICE of popular piety among some catholics (pope-sters)
that
is indeed idolatrous. The wrong assumption that then gets made is that
all
catholics practice this idolatry, and all who fall into these practices
do
so because it is consistent with the teaching of the catholic church.
That
is an absolutely fallacious assumption. Nothing is further from the
truth.
One only needs to read the summary of catholic beliefs (Catechism of the
Catholic Church) to see that such a practice is "anathema" to us.
Consequently, we see that these christians have fallen into a
presumptuous
understanding of catholic (or E. orthodox, "bearded wonders") doctrine,
not
based on responsible research of official church documents, but because
of
hasty conclusions which are facilitated by a convenient view of
unfamiliar
traditions. I'd like to share how I understand the communion of saints,
what it means to me today, and what I do as a result of those beliefs,
and
how improper piety may have developed.
In 325 AD, our forefathers (the most important bishops in Christendom)
met
as an ecumenical Council in Nice to address numerous issues, for
example,
one of these was dealing with Arianism. The purpose of the Councils in
defining doctrine and dogma, has never been to promote novel dogma, but
to
maintain those beliefs which were always there from the beginning.
Councils
never met for the purpose of theological invention, but for the purpose
of
clarifying and therefore definitively expressing the Apostolic Tradition
(i.e. Apostolic understanding of the Christian Faith, which is separate
from
the Scriptures). One of the great things that emerged from this meeting
was
the Nicean Creed. Remember, the year is 325 A.D. . . . and the creed
expressed the lowest common (and necessary!) denominator for all of
Christendom. One of the statements of the creed is "We believe in the
communion of saints . . ."
Scripture tells us:
So there is Scriptural precedent that the departed saints share in the
1)
New Testament Kingdom and observe the goings on here (otherwise they
would
not be called witnesses), 2) That their prayers and ours
(intercessions)
are offered together to God, 3) that the INCARNATE Jesus of Nazareth
himself, communicated with the Living departed Saints, Moses and Elijah.
So what is all this "praying to the Saints" stuff about? First of all,
it
should NOT be worship . . . ever. Do some people fall into that? Yes.
That is condemned by Scripture and what Catholics and E. Orthodox call
"sacred tradition." I do pray to some favorite departed saints . .
Elijah,
John the Baptist, St. Patrick, St. Francis and even the Lord's mother,
Mary.
What I do, is simply ask them to pray for me in a given situation, just
like
I would ask you to pray for me. Nothing more, nothing less. This is
not
worship. All of these individuals are created beings, so I would never
do
that. But here is the really, REALLY cool and awesome part . . Heb.
7:24-25
"but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
Therefore,
he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because
HE
ALWAYS LIVES TO INTERCEDE FOR THEM." I hope you have goosebumps. You
see
He is the primary intercessor, and He answers our prayers . . . the
Saints,
even Mary, does not. They just intercede, and bring the request to HIM
who
constantly intercedes and answers those prayers for us! He alone, not
they,
are the source of blessing and Life.
Remember, according to Haggai 2 and Hebrews 12:26-29 . . ."Once more I
will
shake not only the earth but also the heavens. The words "once more"
indicate the removing of what can be shaken - that is, created things -
so
that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are
receiving a
kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and SO WORSHIP GOD
ACCEPTABLY WITH REVERENCE AND AWE, for our "God is a consuming fire."
No
created being compares with Him in any way.
So . . where do these misapplied pietistic practices of many Catholics
come
from? I have a theory. From the beginning (see the earliest Church
Fathers), there have been bishops, priests and deacons. These offices
existed and were undoubtedly filled with men who were humble servants
who
demonstrated the hearts of martyrs to their people first (they were
servants) . . . and the condition of their hearts (which already had
died to
themselves) were made a public display by the authorities as these men
incarnated the martyrdom which already existed within them. As time
went
on, the church assumed more and more civil authority, church leadership
was
corrupted by lust for power . . . and what was a legitimate office (I
believe always was, is and will be legitimate) was populated by men with
carnal priorities. The priesthood and bishoprics became seats of
royalty.
A caste system emerged, which we are still battling. So a people that
already felt separated from God by their sins, became more estranged
from
the clergy (what I believe you all are calling the result of the Spirit
of
Nicolaitanism) . . . thus amplifying their perception of separateness
from
God. By the middle ages, the popular tongue was no longer Latin (The
mass
was originally celebrated in greek . . by 300-400 AD, the laity didn't
speak
greek anymore, so it was changed to the vulgar language of the people,
Latin
(which is why Jerome's translation of the Scriptures is called the Latin
Vulgate)), so what went on in church became even more mysterious and
separate . . . and connection with God must have seemed
incomprehensible.
If you can't connect with God . . . if you cannot connect with the
clergy .
. . the next option . . was the communion of saints . . elevated to a
place
that became unhealthy, because the laity transferred an affection to the
saints that rightfully belonged to God alone.
If you have read to the bottom of this tome . . . you demonstrate a
profound
amount of Christian virtue . . .patience
May the Lord pour dumptruck loads of His Holy Spirit on all of you!!!
chuckler
Dear Jay and greetings to all, From the words of the prophet Hosea, we
should "sow to ourselves in righteousness, we'll reap in mercy. Break up
your fallow ground...It's time to seek the Lord 'til HE comes, He'll
rain
His righteousness on us"....and that is how we are to live. Every moment
of
every day, sowing the seeds of righteousness, truth, justice and the
gospel
of our Lord Jesus....those seeds will grow and bear fruit and be the
harvest we will reap in the future (whenever that may happen). That
harvest
is sown in the hearts of men, and if the ground is broken and
"unfallowed"
the seeds will grow. The water will be able to penetrate and life will
come
forth.
As far as the communion of saints, and heaven and so forth. I
believe
Heaven is dimensional as much as it is "some place up there". It also
seems
to me, as I am preparing at this moment to teach a woman's Bible Study
group from Genesis one and two, that God has some kind of physical form
and
that He has HANDS, and every kind of emotion we do, and that we are
created
IN HIS IMAGE. Before Adam and Eve fell, they "walked with God every day
in
the cool of the day" and they obviously saw HIM face to face, heard him,
touched HIM and were able to SEE HIM with their physical senses as well
as
with their "spiritual" ones. There is, as you say, another place where
we
are "going" that is an actual physical realm of existence. Where angels
dwell around the THRONE of GOD and sing heavenly praises night and day,
and
where people like Moses, Elijah and others are seated around that place
as
elders. (they even appeared in physical form to talk to Jesus while He
was
here on earth) We know that angels have physical forms that are like
those
we have, because we are told to entertain strangers not knowing if they
could be angels who have come here from God. Angels visited Abraham, Lot
and others as well as Elizabeth and Mary and Peter later on. Many people
have "seen" them even in our own time, or "heard" them with their
physical
sense of hearing.
All living things have their being IN GOD and the LIGHT
of HIS LOVE and HIS WORD is not physical, even when Jesus returns to
Jerusalem (the LIGHT in the CITY will be the LIGHT OF THE SON OF GOD).
HE
IS THE LIGHT and the sun is actually a physical expression of HIS LIGHT.
If
we read Genesis, the first three books, we see that God spoke into
existence first "LET THERE BE LIGHT" and there was LIGHT, then He later
created the sun, the moon, the stars and all that have life in the earth
(every living creature) through HIS SPOKEN WORD. Only man was MADE and
after FORMING MAN out of the dust of the earth, God breathed a living
soul
into him. It is fascinating to me that when we revive a person through
CPR,
that is what we do. We literally breathe life back into them, our souls
to
theirs, and we re-ignite the "fire" of life somehow by blowing it back
into
existence within a body much the same way we would blow on coals to
re-ignite them.
After Jesus died, He was resurrected by God the Father and
the life within HIM was re-ignited, in HIS BODY that had once been
walking
around Israel as a flesh and blood form and had not yet ascended. He
said
we will receive the same glorified bodies when HE returns. He will
"raise
up" those who are "asleep" and catch together in the air those who are
still walking around here doing His will and laboring in His fields, and
together we will all receive NEW and GLORIFIED BODIES that are PERFECTLY
FORMED IN HIS IMAGE and JUST LIKE HIS! WE SHALL ALL BE LIKE HIM, BODY,
MIND
AND SOUL! But while Jesus' body "slept" in the grave (which is the same
word HE used to describe Lazarus' physical condition when he was "dead"
and
in the grave physically), He descended into hell and preached to those
who
had been held captive there since the flood. So He had not yet gone back
to
Heaven, his soul was in hell, just as it had once as fully dwelt in His
body here on earth. We are not told if He actually was experiencing the
torments of hell while there, only that He set the captives free and
preached while He was there. He gave them a chance to repent, and he
set
the souls of all who wanted to be let go free to leave hell (wow! Can
you
imagine the fury of Satan at that point? and he was powerless to stop
those
souls from leaving whatever tortures they had been subjected to in that
realm, NO LONGER HIS SLAVES or PRISONERS.)
These are mysteries, but I do
believe we have some keys here and some of what I have understood I am
not
necessarily to share, because I think the Lord Himself needs to reveal
these things by His Spirit and He Himself gives "wisdom" to ALL WHO ASK,
He
is not partial We are each one HIS children and nothing is left hidden
from
us. He just gives us what we can handle, a little at a time, and soon
the
picture is complete as all the pieces are fit together in time and with
patience on our part. It's up to us all individually to seek Him
diligently
and allow His Holy Spirit within us to lead and guide us into all TRUTH.
Since we have the Holy Spirit and the testimony of both prophets and
saints, we will bear witness to THAT SAME truth as it is revealed
through
each other (we all see in part and prophesy in part)...As we put each
part
in place the picture will get clearer and clearer for us. Could it be
that
our spirits are already WITH THE LORD? "I am crucified with Christ
nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ lives IN ME, and the life that
I
now live I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave
Himself
for me. If you then be risen with Christ seek those things which are
above,
where CHRIST SITS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, set your mind on things
above
and not on things of the earth, for YOU ARE DEAD and your life is HIDDEN
WITH CHRIST IN GOD"...words written by the Apostle Paul to the Church in
Galatia. I believe they apply to us today as well.
The communion of the
saints is not so much a case of their abiding here in spirit with us on
earth so much as we abide in spirit with THEM in HEAVEN, which is pretty
clear through this passage, because it is CHRIST who dwells in us ALL!
According to this, we are ALREADY risen with CHRIST but there are
conditions that apply to this if it will be reality to us. IF you are
crucified with Christ and have died to the lusts of your flesh and the
world's hold on you. IF your mind is stayed on the LORD and on things
which
are above, not on things of this earth. So, it is really OUR choice
where
we dwell while our bodies are still moving and having their being here
IN
this world. We don't HAVE to be OF it. Then we are in communion with the
Saints. We are all the BODY OF CHRIST, whether here in this present
world
or having gone on to Glory, our spirits abide IN HIM and THROUGH HIM and
WITH HIM....the only thing that prevents us from having the same kind of
success here that Jesus had, the Apostles had and so many of our very
simple, common brothers and sisters are presently witnessing throughout
the
rest of the earth is OUR OWN BELIEF SYSTEM....Do we believe in our
hearts
what we confess with our mouths? That is the key to our salvation.
The resurrection of the "dead" and the saints that are asleep is a
bodily resurrection. The dry bones spoken of in Ezekiel that rise up and
come together and are covered with flesh once again. The GLORIFIED
bodies
that won't die. Before the flood, men lived to be over a thousand years
old. Could it have to do with this? The thousand year reign that is,
where
souls in their new bodies and new earth will be once again tested after
Satan has been allowed a season to tempt them and see if they will
BELIEVE
GOD THIS TIME? I don't really know that for sure, I don't claim to
understand such high and lofty things. But I do know this, it is
definitely
OUR CHOICE as to WHO WE OBEY, who we TRUST and WHO WE BELIEVE now, in
the
world to come, and forever. LIFE does not end when bodies die, that is
an
obvious scientific fact, it only "changes" forms. We are HIS
WORKMANSHIP,
HIS MASTERPIECE, HIS DELIGHT, THE WORK OF HIS HANDS (not only spoken
into
existence but MADE in HIS LIKENESS)....We need to be filled with AWE in
reality, just blessing God with every breath we have and THANKING HIM
night
and day for the incredible GLORY HE has poured out in us and through us
as
we are GIVEN HIS SPIRIT, and as HE makes us the LIGHT of the world (as
HE
IS) by shining through us and letting our good works be seen by men. IN
TRUTH, our actions speak much louder than our words as to what is really
in
our hearts and what we believe THERE. I asked the Lord to show me the
difference between "preaching" and "teaching" and I believe this was HIS
answer. We preach to the heart, we teach the mind, but the heart is
where
men are CONVERTED. It is where we are "plugged into God, our POWER
source"
and where the LIGHT comes forth and the issues of life flow from. THE
SEAT
OF THE SOUL, where our bodies and souls connect. OUR CENTER, where GOD
DWELLS IN US. Could it be that is why Adam and Eve died the day they ate
of
the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Could it be
that
at that point they chose to believe a lie instead of the truth and broke
fellowship with God, became DISCONNECTED from the LIFE SOURCE in their
souls?
If our hearts stop beating, our brains are of no use at all. There
is no life. It's where we LOVE (feel) from. (can you imagine handing out
brain shaped valentines?) Our heart beats faster when we are "in love"
or
even when we are "afraid" because our emotions are so connected to our
hearts. Just imagine a computer with the biggest "brain" possible but
now
modem or no power source or no way of connecting it to the power that
makes
it "alive" so to speak. What good would it be? Or our screens without
light
to see the words printed on them, the things brought up from the brain
of
our computer. I think it's how we work as well, man can only imitate
what
God has already DONE. The mind is a good way to rule over our emotions,
to
say, "stop and think and look before you leap" but the heart is the only
way the mind can be connected to the real source of life for the body.
Apart from the heart, there is no life. It's our LIGHT SOURCE so to
speak.
WE are CREATED for GOOD WORKS IN CHRIST....so we can all sing now "This
little light of mine" and BE (as George once reminded us all) the
THOUSAND
POINTS OF LIGHT that lights up the WHOLE WORLD and fills it with HIS
GLORY....OUR CHOICE....let's make HIS HEART SING WITH GLADNESS and
REJOICING OVER US....THAT is forever JOY.....love you all, Karen
>The bible teaches three heavens. The first heaven is the firmament that
The bible talks about the third heaven, which is where Paul seems to
have
gone or had a vision of.
Presume that this is the highest (unless we would admit a fourth or
fifth,
etc) this is the heaven that satan was cast out of along with a third of
the angels.
Admit the first is the physical heavens that declare the glory of God
(Psalm 19) it also includes the sun moon and stars etc.
Then the second heaven is the invisible spiritual realm all around us,
through which angels and demons move, and at times communicate with
humans.
Re. the communion of saints, it should be clearly understood that this
does
not mean nor should be taken to imply communication with the dead,
either
the dead in Christ or those dead "outside"
That those who are dead "in Christ" are conscious/aware is no more (or
less) than to say that they enjoy the presence of the Lord. It is also
true
they, like us, are "part of the one loaf, because they all partake of
the
one bread"; this is the meaning of the term "communion of the saints"
There is an old hymn that expresses this very well, The Church's One
Foundation.
The Church's One Foundation
Elect from every nation
Yet she on earth has union
The mystic communion is the sharing in the "One Bread" of 1 Corinthians
10:16-17 Which in context is referencing communion, the Lord's supper
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation
in
the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation
in
the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are
one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
The communion we share is with "The saints of all ages" and of all those
alive today, and so the many are one in Christ; it is not a
communication
between living and resurrected saints.
Peter Crowson
Hi Jay,
Maria Minus
Dear Jay,
During praise and worship at church today - the worship was so awesome,
the Holy Spirit was so
present, that I felt like we were entering into the throne room in
heaven and
worshiping there with the saints, the elders the angels and the
creatures
flying around the throne and I had a thought from the Spirit that this
may
be what you were referring to. No we don't communicate with them but
when
we enter into a certain dimension of worship with the Holy Spirit we
really
do seem to lose our physical bodies and are worshiping in the spirit
realm
and in those times we may in fact be in communion with the saints and
the
Spirit convicted me today during this time and spoke specifically about
this
during my most rapturous moments of praise.
Love, Audette
Jay,
This is a powerful argument. 2 things, Rick Joyner in his book the
Final
Quest, describes 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heaven in terms of chronological
distinctiveness rather than so much physical distinctiveness. So in
a sense the first heaven is the heaven that was, the 2nd heaven is the
heaven that is, and the third heaven is the heaven that will be. Now
given that einstein wasn't a Christian like Galileo and Newton and some
of the other great physicists I don't know how trustworthy his finds
are.
But in his theory of relativity he describes space and time, both as
quantifiable aspects of nature that interact with one another, such that
there is a space-time continuum. This is interesting, only in the sense
that it forces us more and more to have that blind and humble faith,
wherein we embrace the infinite possibilities of God in a way that is
biblically responsible.
In regards to the communion of saints, I
struggle with this. I really love the idea talking to Peter or Paul and
have done it, yet at the same time I believe that there is a scripture
which refers to the martyrs crying up to the Lord from under an altar.
In addition, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states "For the Lord himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" This
suggests that there were dead in Christ that were "still sleeping" and
that they would not rise until the final trump. Is it not possible for
one to be alive and yet still sleeping? What are the verses that you
use
to corroborate the theory that those dead with Christ have already risen
to heaven besides the truth from the Gospels that God is God of the
Living and not of the dead? I love to embrace possibilities, and so I
stand pretty open to the idea of the 'communion of the saints' in
Catholic dogma, I also in some ways am also open to the idea of
purgatory
to which 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 seems to give some credence. So again,
I'm open, but I still have wrestles the few times that I have openly
thanked Peter and Paul for all that they did in Christ. I wonder, Are
they in Heaven hearing me, are they fallen asleep, waiting to be called
up, are they both?, are they up in Heaven whereas certain other saints
are still sleeping? Which might be suggested by Paul's statement, "We
shall not all sleep". So many mysteries, so many possibilities. As you
said however, there's only one Jesus and he's the key. God Bless you
for
the work that your doing. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:58. Thanks Again,
The (WoodyandMachel)Man
Dear Jay and Group,
I would like to know what your thoughts are on the 39
times in the Old Testament in which God is said to
"repent." In most all these cases, a real change in
the future is said to occur in the texts themselves.
The first such is in Gen. 6:6, in which God is said to
"be sorry that he had made man," and to repent, and
decide to destroy mankind through the flood. My
question is, how could God be sorry, regretful, and
repent over something He knew full well would happen
since the before the beginning of time? This same
question holds true for all the times in which God is
said to repent or change his mind.
Each time, this is described as a divine reaction to
human unfaithfulness or faithfulness, as in 2 Chron
7:14, and Jonah 3:10, where it says, "And God saw
their works, that they turned from their evil way; and
God repented of the evil, that he had said that he
would do unto them; and he did it not."
2 Kings 20 is perhaps the biggest of all these
things--God reverses his previous decision to end King
Hezekiah's life, all apparently simply because
Hezekiah prayed and pleaded with God.
Does not this sort of thing cause us to have to
rethink our ideas of eternity, time, the "eternal now"
concept, etc.?
Would love to hear some responses. If it is out of
order here for me to ask this, I am sorry. This is
something that has intrigued me for years. I do
understand the issue is causing quite a lot of ripples
within the academic theological world today.
God bless,
John
Hello Jay,
I thank you very much for responding to me and so quickly (smile) God
bless you. I live in miami florida. I do have a 5 fold ministry, I am a
prophetess, have been ministering for the past 5 yrs, enjoying every
moment
of it, I love the Lord. The Lord uses me in a very unusual way, O give
thanks unto the Lord for He is Good .
thank you and God Bless (smile)
M.M
HI JAY
MY NAME IS MERVEN PATRICK, I AM 39YEARS OLD. I WAS BORN AS A ROMAN
CATHOLIC
AND I ACCEPTED THE LORD WHEN I WENT TO A CRUSADE ON THE 13th OF JULY
1988
AND FROM THEN ON I NEVER STOPPED SERVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. THREE
WEEKS
AGO WE HAD A GUEST SPEAKER IN OUR CHURCH WHO SPOKE ABOUT THE APOSTOLIC
REFORMATION.
I WOULD LIKE TONKA MORE ABOUT THE APOSTOLIC REFORMATION AND THE WAY GOD
IS
MOVING.
THANK YOU
MERVEN
Thanks for your response Jay.
I am 45, and saved 14 years ago, instructed by Baptists, and healed by
faith
of a incurable sickness, baptized in The Holy Spirit by faith, currently
teaching 8 people every wednesday in matters of the Kingdom.
Since my healing and filling of the Spirit, I have been preaching,
promoting, and convincing believers regarding Healing, prosperity and
well
been for each believer and his family, as well as the battle of faith.
I do not belong to any church but the Church of Jesus Christ , but I
deeply
respect Mr Kenneth E Hagin, Who I consider to the matter my leader.
I consider many rules imposed by Church leaders as manmade rules not
according to Christ and therefore directly against the freedom bought in
there
cruz.
I think many christians are been led by dictators instead of pastors,
and
this due to the lack of commitment of each individual to submit directly
to
the guidance of the Spirit.
I believe that christianity must be appealing to nonbelievers instead of
repelling, nobody wants to be like a christian who is defeated always
seek,
in poverty and slave on other's rules like : Don't think, don't read,
don't
watch TV, or Theater or anything, feeling guilty, they even prohibit
drinking wine others even coffee.
I am in favor of unity but also in favor of a Victorious Church.
Mario Rippa
Greetings brother Jay!
I commend you on the discussion group and on your overall attitude
toward controversy, humility and unity. It's like I always say, If
there's
anything WORTH arguing about it's the Word of God! Part of maturing
spiritually is to be able to dialogue with others without getting
offended. I think your discussion group promotes that.
I founded FULFILLMENT MINISTRIES in 1994. The word FULFILLMENT speaks
of Bible prophecy and of the total Christian experience. You
can ask for my monthly Fulfillment Newsletter. I will also inform you
of current tape offers in the future. Also, a web page is presently
being
renovated to include an archive of past newsletters, and I'll let you
know when that is ready.
Your present discussion is hot on the heels of a recent 2 part article I
did entitled "IF THERE BE NO RESURRECTION" (Paul's quote in I
Cor.15:13). I will send you those articles for your review.
In your present discussion you mention a number of times that God is the
God of the living in accordance with Matthew 22:32. In essence, you
are defending the immortal soul doctrine, which I contend is literally
the oldest lie in the book, being first told by the serpent in the
beginning of
time - "You will NOT surely (really) die." (Gen.3:4).
Now let me say that I have never been affiliated with A Seventh Day
Adventist Church or the Jw's. My conclusion on what the Bible actually
teaches in this regard are the result of the overwhelming testimony of
scripture itself.
Regarding Matthew 22:32, the subject is the resurrection. Actually,
could it be any plainer?? Jesus said to the Sadducees who did not
believe in
the resurrection, "But ABOUT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, have ye not
read...God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Jesus was not teaching the Sadducees the immortal soul doctrine,
something they probably already believed in in accordance with the Greek
mode of thinking. Romans 4:17 says:
"As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,
before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead (the
resurrection), and calleth those things which be not as though they
were."
God called Abraham the father of many nations before a single nation had
sprung from his descendents (Gen.17:5). SIMILARLY, the future
resurrection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was so firmly guaranteed in the
mind of God that Jesus rebuked the Sadducees by referring to God as
the God of the living, not the dead. The key to understanding the
passage is when Jesus says, "concerning the resurrection of the dead" in
verse 31.
Paul taught that "If there be no resurrection of the dead..Then they
also which are fallen asleep in Christ ARE PERISHED", not enjoying a
mansion in the sky! Think about it!
Well that's enough to chew on for now. I look forward to your reply.
A brother in Christ,
Dan Delagrave
October 11, 2000
As you know, we continually seek things that we have need of in our
lives -
understanding being one of them. I know that we are moving on from this
subject, but I just wanted to let you know that Psalm 50 poses a very
interesting final word on "The Judgement." I immediately thought of you
and
the members of the group while I was reading it. Please share your
thoughts
on it if you get a moment. It is awesome - as are all things of God. Be
blessed!!
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour
before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he
may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant
with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge
himself. Selah.
( Been offline for ages due to ISP/Backbone Provider Problems, just
arrived in time for this confusing one! )
I have always been baffled by the fact that there is so much confusion,
and
so many differing opinions on this subject ( as well as others ).
My understanding of it is this:
In His Love, Edwin Stube
>we can see by looking up, the second is the starry heavens beyond our
>world and the third heaven is in the realm of God.
Is Jesus Christ her Lord
She is His new creation
By water and the word
>From heav'n he came and sought her
To be his holy bride
With His own blood He bought her
And for her life He died
Yet one o'er all the earth
Her charter of salvation
One faith, one Lord, one birth
One holy name she blesses
Partakes one Holy Food
And to one hope she presses
With every grace endued
With God the Three in One
And mystic sweet communion
With those whose rest is won
O happy ones and holy,
Lord give us grace that we
Like them the meek and lowly
On high may dwell with thee
You know God is, a God of the living and not the dead, and God speaks to
the
living. The dead are in a grave and the spirit is in that grave until
the
master (God) sends Yahsua (Jesus) back. Everyone just about, thinks that
hell is full of fire now and lucifer is in it. yes lucifer's place is
hell. but in the book of Job we see that Lucifer (satan) moves to and
fro within the earth and that is also today. Job 1 ver 7) fire will not
be in Hell until the day come that The Master (Jesus put it there) fire
and brimstone. I can only tell you what God told me Jay, and maybe this
can explain it a little better. I ask God one day if Hell exists and HE
said to me "There is a hell its below as it is a heaven above. For those
that are not of me will go to the pits of hell, but my people I have
prepared a place for them which is heaven.' For there will be fire and
brimstone on the day of judgement, I will judge the people for many will
sink into hell and they will be burned with fire and brimstone. this
only
prove it self when jesus shows us this in (Luke ch. 16 verse 24) the
parable of Lazarus and the rich man. God say that the torment is the
pain. Just think of the worst pain a person can endure. you can only
imagine how it would feel when worms are eating the body and you are
still alive.
O Give Thanks Unto The Lord For He Is Good For His mercies Endureth For
Ever.
God bless (smile)Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
Issue Oriented Discussion Newsletter
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