Christian Leadership Responses

January 7, 2000

Well group, you are blessed,

Sometimes I can get too blessed. This is the meat of the word, I am stuffed. A lot of good response to the leadership question, that's for sure. No one has yet convinced me to accept the pecking order. That's good, I don't want you to accept it either. This is all good, some still stick up for Christian leadership but only in a godly sense. I find the best ideas are those that suggest that we are doing a new thing, singing a new song, that God is stirring up His people to this very issue and we are fulfilling the last day prophecies by even discussing it. For example, the first response is bringing up Revelation 4 and of us casting our crowns at the feet of the Lord.

I also did an article on the Nicolaitans, this discussion probably falls there. I believe that church leadership is what started the Babylonian errors of authority to begin with in separating the clergy or priests from the laity. I haven't always thought this way, it's time we all repented of these things. This is the last days when we are to put away the traditions of men and hear what the spirit is saying to the churches. We cannot go back to business as usual.

I know that some of you mean well and have written fine articles (some too long for this discussion) and may indeed be led to still call ministers leaders but this is what I am reacting to. We are not to be chief among anyone, and certainly none of us should be first, even of equals. We are to be firmly fit together as a body with Jesus as the head. What is said is that a man or woman as a godly leader will not seek his own promotion. Everything that applies to godly leadership is good and right but if that is the case every instance of the word leader could be replaced by the word minister and still be effective. If the leadership properly belongs to God, why would we want to be called leaders? Or follow leaders other than Jesus? I will let the responses speak for themselves but I agree with Bordtodis that this may be the time in history that we should all be laying down our crowns and have only one leader.


The 4th chapter of Revelation gives a vision of the very throne room of God, and the true pecking" order, and the way in which that authority conducts itself. John is carried in the spirit to this place and a voice speaks and says "come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this". Described there is the throne with the 7 Spirits of God, around this throne is a circle of 24 thrones, for the 24 elders. Now I do not know exactly who these elders are, or how much power and authority they have, but I would suppose that if anyone has bragging rights for a high ministry they have attained it would have to be these 24 elders, yet every time they hear the 4 living creatures give glory to God, they fall down prostrate and cast their crowns before the throne of God. Now if Jesus said that we should pray "let it be on earth as it is in heaven", I believe this: No one has got any business at all claiming a position over any other person, as this always leads to abuse. I believe that you are right in that you seem to have a revelation of what God is demanding now and that is the throwing down of the crowns. Either the crowns will be cast down or the Lord Himself will take them away. There is coming today a cry from the people of God, a travail is coming forth, that has touched the very heart of God. The shepherds" are not leading the "sheep" into this outpouring, the people are entering in despite the restraint that the "shepherds" are trying to put on them. The reason that the "leaders" do not want the Presence of the Lord in the midst of the congregation is that they will have to relinquish their crowns. I believe that you are very right in saying that there should be no pecking order. Too long the "ministers" have demanded to have praises sung to them as if they were to be anything but a servant to the people. This is an abomination what these false apostles and prophets have done to the body of Christ. The time is now that if a man is a prophet he should be saying " I am no prophet, rather a tiller of the ground" Zechariah 13. Jeremiah 23 also talks of the false prophets, and the "oracles of the Lord" and how the people are told to no longer even refer to the "oracles" of the Lord. vs 33-40 NIV. This is the truth, God is pronouncing judgement on the church age preachers, they are dying out without the fulfillment that is coming for those that will enter into it, those that are willing to throw down the crowns and let Jesus Christ be Lord.


The Apostles are the CHIEFS in the 5 fold.

It is NOT their gifting from God that determines the office they are not Apostles by receiving a gift but by DIVINE COMMISSION from the Lord........ A true God-man Leader will never seek promotion.

jim Parks

I believe there is an order to leadership amongst God's people but it is not established like most have done up until now. Our Master said to the disciples in Mark 10:42-45,
42- But Yeshua called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43- But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44- And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be the servant of all.
45-For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and give his life a ransom for many.

This is the opposite of today's leadership and authority. The Lord said that he who would be greatest would be the servant or slave of all. God's authority is the authority to love , minister, serve. Those who have the greatest authority in the kingdom will be the ones serving the most people. We do not see this today. We see people attempting to gain a false authority that really puts them in a position to be served by the most and be recognized by the most. When the true apostles are raised up, you will see men who are absolutely sold out to the concept of servanthood and being poured out upon their brothers and sisters. Not out telling people that they are an apostle or a prophet or a pastor or anything. True authority speaks for itself. If you are always having to tell someone you have it, you probably don't. If you have to constantly promote yourself or your ministry, you have missed what the Lord's example was. If you are called, He will make a way. He will open doors, He will go before you. It won't have to be contrived, hyped or faked. I believe that those that with the greatest authority, will have the greatest portion of love in the kingdom. For no greater love has any man, than he lay his life down for his friend.

In regards to the five fold, Jay. I believe that that really it is a seven fold that all of us are called to in one way or another. Apostle, prophet, teacher, shepherd, evangelist, elder, deacon. Yeshua manifested all of these offices and so did the apostles. Look at it for yourself. It is in scripture. I believe all will have to come into their fullness. And that everyone is called to one of them.

Your brother in Yeshua,


On the question of leadership you are absolutely right, in my opinion, to be entirely focussed on Jesus. John the Baptist was the first leader of the Christian flock in that he preached and baptized in water but he led an extremely humble life and always pointed his flock to Jesus because he recognized who Jesus was. Hence as long as leaders of today's church do not exalt themselves unduly and as long as they constantly point their flock to Jesus they are doing God's work in the church. I like to think that all in the group are potential leaders. Some of us may only be required to lead our nearest and dearest to the Lord but others may be put in a situation where they are required to lead hundreds to the Lord through whatever ministry God has give them. There is however a danger that those given powerful ministries may consider the ministry itself as more important than the Lord and this is where discernment and humility is called for.


When sheep follow other sheep they will perish.
Sheep following sheep can only see sheep butt before them.
When there is no vision sheep perish.
We are all called to follow The LAMB, our Shepherd, not other sheep.

We are to submit to godly leadership. The LORD always confirms HIS WORD.

Mary spoke in much wisdom saying, whatever HE saith unto thee, Do It.

What do we have to offer The LORD except our hearts and a yielded will upon His altar?
A yielded will responds with "immediate obedience".

a handmaiden,

Jay, your question about 'leaders' is so pertinent to these times. I agree with you as you have stated your position. When we obey God through the Holy Spirit we will know whom He has given anointing and vision to, and will willingly cooperate. I dont believe in hierarchies of leadership after the worldly model of the military or business corporations. This type of organizational syncretism disturbs me, and many who speak of 'excellence' in ministry are just reflecting the worlds' concepts dressed up in 'spiritual' clothes. Jesus said 'My kingdom is not like the kingdom of the world, but whoever is the greatest among you will be your servant". I agree with Jesus, and He is building His church, which the gates of hell will not prevail against it. God bless you all and thanks for this egroup, Laurie Blackwell

Laurie also sent this from an old book.

The distinction you make between "lay" and "spiritual" men, in the proper sense, is unscriptural. All believers of "the gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. iv. 23; Acts x. 36, 37; Matt. xxiv. 14; Mark. 14, 15: xvi. 15, 16; Acts ii. 22-28: viii. 4, 5, 12, 35, 38), who have put on Christ Jesus, are equally lay and spiritual. They are. all God's laity (people) and being "born of the spirit" in an intellectual and moral sense, are also spiritual..... Those whom Peter exhorted to feed the flock were "shepherds," not wolves in sheep's clothing like the clergy of the Apostasy. They were servants, not lords: servants of God and fellow-servants of His laity..... There were no clergy then as distinguished from "the laity." All the laoi of Christ were God's lot, inheritance, or clergy. The elders, overseers, and rulers among them were inspired men-men super-naturally endowed "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ"....... no denomination is quite free from the guilt of rendering religious profession and sacred functions subservient to worldly interest, credit, ease, and indulgence. In these things we ought to come out and separate from Babylon, if we would not partake of her plagues........... Instead of being the Lord's people they are mere interlopers and usurpers who have started into life out of that "Mystery of Iniquity" which was concocted by their reverences Hymeneus and Philetus, Phygellus and Hermogenes, Alexander the coppersmith, Demas and Diotrephes, Nicolas, and other "dogs" of whom, saith the apostle, "beware" (Phil. iii. 2).

Also from Laurie

Sovereignty Is the Issue:

Another aspect of the comparison between the kingdom and the kosmos, the religious system of the kingdom, the religious system of the kosmos, is this: That in the kingdom of God Jesus Christ is the undisputed King. In the kosmos, man is god. Following that, in the kingdom of God, the Holy Spirit is the only one empowered to distribute the authority of Christ. In the kosmos, man decides how he will worship God and what he will do when he worships God. Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." (inserted - actual verse - "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in Me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me you can do nothing." - Jn. 15:5). But man says, "I am free to determine what I will do for God." Whenever man says that he is free to decide how he's going to serve God, the only god he can serve is himself.

This was just posted on our egroup list for the watchman seers network, looks like God is stirring up the Body to address these issues.... God bless,


Whenever, I see people refer to Apostle Jimmy, Pastor Harry, I tend to see something that is false. Not ever do I see any of the true apostles, prophets.... of the scripture... award themselves and others titles within the church of the Living God and His Christ.

I would most certainly begin to search into my heart before God asking Him to expose any of that old priesthood-laity indoctrination; that noble-peasant mentality that has been passed down from the Babylonian order.

As leaders, we are not to exalt ourselves above others.

Masters are to be given respect, just as leaders are also be given respect, but this respect does not mean the attribution of titles to one another. Masters and leaders should always understand that they are no higher than the brethren. They have merely been called to stand before, being an example, not to stand above and ruling over the flock as the KJV so often mistranslated the term. Jesus distinctly warned against the giving of titles to brethren, telling us that there was One Lord, One Master, One teacher. There is only One Apostle, One Prophet, One Evangelist. In Him, we are servants, called to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, given to humanity as a sacrifice offering. Just as Jesus laid His life down for the brethren, we are to lay our own lives down. Jesus did not come to Lord it over humanity, but to lay His life down for it. All are invited to receive the mercy and the grace that comes through Him. Sadly, only a few respond. And of those who respond, every one of them is summonsed. Being summonsed, they are chosen. Being chosen, whether leader or not, they are justified and then glorified. Praise God for His goodness.

Also, all this name throwing around, appears to have the carnal, "I am of Paul, I am of Peter and I am of Appollos" syndrome about it. Why cannot we accept the word or better the Word of God that comes through the whosoever, without then exalting one above another? Whoever, the whosoever is, he or she has only our God and Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to credit for what was of the truth anyway.

Sure hoping you'll all understand.

Ivan & Kathryn Poulter

>From Laurie by Don Nori

Every one wants to be on the cutting edge. It sounds so exciting. There is nothing more intriguing than to be in the center of His will and purposes. And that is how it should be. However, few people realize what it actually means to be on that edge of God's activity. Others may call it the cutting edge, but I call it the Brink Of Human Disaster. For the place of His activity is just one step beyond what we can ever do in ourselves. It is one step beyond what we can complete in our own strength, our own wisdom...... The true disciple does not revel in his position, neither does he find pleasure at the precipice of failure. But His passion to be obedient to Him who has washed him, moves him beyond the human safety zone and into the realm of all-God where He moves freely through the lives of those yielded to Him at any cost. Here Lordship takes on new meaning. For here, your Lord does His work within you, in spite of your doctrine, in spite of your traditions, in spite of your past, in spite of your fears.......

Three promises basically constitute the New Covenant (Hebrews 8: 10-12).

1.) I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
2.) And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
3.) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

(Promise # 2 will be used for the response I would like to make to the subject of "fleshly leadership.")

I have no problem with someone calling themselves a leader or them allowing someone else to call them a leader in the Church. That is, if their "leadership" is patterned after New Covenant order. This primarily involves their making sure that promise # 2 is fulfilled in the life of every individual believer under their oversight. Minister and overseer, I believe, are better titles if such are necessary. Titles are only necessary to pinpoint and define what God has called us to do. Serious problems arise when God's people start using their titles for recognition and vain glory. My experience has been that this could involve any title...............

There are various things that could be keeping "leaders" in the church from functioning according to New Covenant order. It has helped me to be forebearing and patient toward my pastor by understanding why things were out of order. I would encourage you to be careful not to be distracted by a person's title, but to discern what spirit they are of. We are called first to love as Jesus loves - diffusing His fragrance to all. In so doing, God can use us to bring correction where it is needed.

Gary P.

On the resurrection

Hi Jay,

I'm sorry that I waited so late to respond, so far I've just been reading all the comments, but have not responded. I will try to respond to your resurrection inquiry. I'm no scholar, but I've been listening to a lot of different Pastors and reading some things on my own.

The first resurrection is near the return of Christ, when the dead in Christ will rise and be caught up in the clouds with the people still living. The second resurrection has to do with the judgement of the dead who did not believe in Christ. These people won't be resurrected until it's close to the judgement time, I guess after the tribulation. Then there's the 1000 years of Jesus Reign and after that, the Evil one will be let loose to tempt the new body in Christ. At this time after the 1000 years of peace there is another event called the "White Throne Judgement." I think others will be resurrected then, I think these are the people who curse God during the tribulation. It seem like after this final judgement, eternity will begin.

thanks for listening


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