Christian Leadership Responses
Well group, you are blessed,
Sometimes I can get too blessed. This is the meat of the word, I am
stuffed. A lot of good response to the leadership question, that's for
sure. No one has yet convinced me to accept the pecking order. That's
good, I don't want you to accept it either. This is all good, some still
stick up for Christian leadership but only in a godly sense. I find the
best ideas are those that suggest that we are doing a new thing, singing
a new song, that God is stirring up His people to this very issue and we
are fulfilling the last day prophecies by even discussing it. For
example, the first response is bringing up Revelation 4 and of us
casting our crowns at the feet of the Lord.
I also did an article on the Nicolaitans, this discussion probably falls
there. I believe that church leadership is what started the Babylonian
errors of authority to begin with in separating the clergy or priests
from the laity. I haven't always thought this way, it's time we all
repented of these things. This is the last days when we are to put away
the traditions of men and hear what the spirit is saying to the
churches. We cannot go back to business as usual.
I know that some of you mean well and have written fine articles (some
too long for this discussion) and may indeed be led to still call
ministers leaders but this is what I am reacting to. We are not to be
chief among anyone, and certainly none of us should be first, even of
equals. We are to be firmly fit together as a body with Jesus as the
head. What is said is that a man or woman as a godly leader will not
seek his own promotion. Everything that applies to godly leadership is
good and right but if that is the case every instance of the word leader
could be replaced by the word minister and still be effective. If the
leadership properly belongs to God, why would we want to be called
leaders? Or follow leaders other than Jesus? I will let the responses
speak for themselves but I agree with Bordtodis that this may be the
time in history that we should all be laying down our crowns and have
only one leader.
Jay.
The 4th chapter of Revelation gives a vision of the very throne room of
God, and the true pecking" order, and the way in which that authority
conducts itself. John is carried in the spirit to this place and a
voice speaks and says "come up here, and I will show you what must take
place after this". Described there is the throne with the 7 Spirits of
God, around this throne is a circle of 24 thrones, for the 24 elders.
Now I do not know exactly who these elders are, or how much power and
authority they have, but I would suppose that if anyone has bragging
rights for a high ministry they have attained it would have to be these
24 elders, yet every time they hear
the 4 living creatures give glory to God, they fall down prostrate and
cast their crowns before the throne of God. Now if Jesus said that we
should pray "let it be on earth as it is in heaven", I believe this: No
one has got any business at all claiming a position over any other
person, as this always leads to abuse. I believe that you are right in
that you seem to have a revelation of what God is demanding now and that
is the throwing down of the crowns. Either the crowns will be cast down
or the Lord Himself will take them away. There is coming today a cry
from the people of God, a travail is coming forth, that has touched the
very heart of God. The shepherds" are not leading the "sheep" into this
outpouring, the people are entering in despite the restraint that the
"shepherds" are trying to put on them. The reason that the "leaders" do
not want the Presence of the Lord in the midst of the congregation is
that they will have to relinquish their crowns. I believe that you are
very right in saying that there should be no pecking order. Too long
the "ministers" have demanded to have praises sung to them as if they
were to be anything but a servant to the people. This is an abomination
what these false apostles and prophets have done to the body of
Christ. The time is now that if a man is a prophet he should be saying
" I
am no prophet, rather a tiller of the ground" Zechariah 13. Jeremiah 23
also talks of the false prophets, and the "oracles of the Lord" and how
the people are told to no longer even refer to the "oracles" of the
Lord. vs 33-40 NIV. This is the truth, God is pronouncing judgement on
the church age preachers, they are dying out without the fulfillment
that is coming for those that
will enter into it, those that are willing to throw down the crowns and
let Jesus Christ be Lord.
Bordtodis
The Apostles are the CHIEFS in the 5 fold.
It is NOT their gifting from God that determines the office
they are not Apostles by receiving a gift but by DIVINE
COMMISSION from the Lord........ A true God-man Leader will never
seek promotion.
jim Parks
I believe there is an order to leadership amongst God's people but it is
not established like most have done up until now. Our Master said to
the disciples in Mark 10:42-45,
This is the opposite of today's leadership and authority. The Lord said
that he who would be greatest would be the servant or slave of all.
God's authority is the authority to love , minister, serve. Those who
have the greatest authority in the kingdom will be the ones serving the
most people. We do not see this today. We see people attempting to
gain a false authority that really
puts them in a position to be served by the most and be recognized by
the most. When the true apostles are raised up, you will see men who
are absolutely sold out to the concept of servanthood and being poured
out upon their brothers and sisters. Not out telling people that they
are an apostle or a prophet or a pastor or anything. True authority
speaks for itself. If you are always having to tell someone you have
it, you probably don't. If you have to constantly promote yourself or
your ministry, you have missed what the Lord's example was. If you are
called, He will make a way. He will open doors, He will go before you.
It won't have to be contrived, hyped or faked. I believe that those
that with the greatest authority, will have the greatest portion of love
in the kingdom. For no greater love has any man, than he lay his life
down for his friend.
In regards to the five fold, Jay. I believe that that really it is a
seven fold that all of us are called to in one way or another. Apostle,
prophet, teacher, shepherd, evangelist, elder, deacon. Yeshua
manifested all of these offices and so did the apostles. Look at it for
yourself. It is in scripture. I believe all will have to come into
their fullness. And that everyone is called to one of them.
Your brother in Yeshua,
Scott
On the question of leadership you are absolutely right, in my opinion,
to be entirely focussed on Jesus. John the Baptist was the first leader
of the Christian flock in that he preached and baptized in water but he
led an extremely humble life and always pointed his flock to Jesus
because he recognized who Jesus was. Hence as long as leaders of
today's church do not exalt themselves unduly and as long as they
constantly point their flock to Jesus they are doing God's work in the
church. I like to think that all in the group are potential leaders.
Some of us may
only be required to lead our nearest and dearest to the Lord but others
may be put in a situation where they are required to lead hundreds to
the Lord through whatever ministry God has give them. There is however a
danger that those given powerful ministries may consider the ministry
itself as more important than the Lord and this is where discernment and
humility is called for.
Leander
When sheep follow other sheep they will perish.
We are to submit to godly leadership. The LORD always confirms HIS WORD.
Mary spoke in much wisdom saying, whatever HE saith unto thee, Do It.
What do we have to offer The LORD except our hearts and a yielded will
upon His altar?
a handmaiden,
Jay, your question about 'leaders' is so pertinent to these times. I
agree with you as you have stated your position. When we obey God
through the Holy Spirit we will know whom He has given anointing and
vision to, and will willingly cooperate. I dont believe in hierarchies
of leadership after the worldly model of the military or business
corporations. This type of organizational syncretism disturbs me, and
many who speak of 'excellence' in ministry
are just reflecting the worlds' concepts dressed up in 'spiritual'
clothes. Jesus said 'My kingdom is not like the kingdom of the world,
but whoever is the greatest among you will be your servant". I agree
with Jesus, and He is building His church, which the gates of hell will
not prevail against it. God bless you all and thanks for this egroup,
Laurie Blackwell
Laurie also sent this from an old book.
The distinction you make between "lay" and "spiritual" men, in the
proper sense, is unscriptural. All believers of "the gospel of the
kingdom" (Matt. iv. 23; Acts x. 36, 37; Matt. xxiv. 14; Mark. 14, 15:
xvi. 15, 16; Acts ii. 22-28: viii. 4, 5, 12, 35, 38), who have put on
Christ Jesus, are equally lay and spiritual. They are. all God's laity
(people) and being "born of the spirit" in an intellectual and moral
sense, are also spiritual..... Those whom Peter exhorted to feed the
flock were "shepherds," not wolves in sheep's clothing like the clergy
of the Apostasy. They were servants, not lords: servants of God and
fellow-servants of His laity..... There were no clergy then as
distinguished from "the laity." All the laoi of Christ were God's lot,
inheritance, or clergy. The elders, overseers, and rulers among them
were inspired men-men super-naturally endowed "for the perfecting of the
saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of
Christ"....... no denomination is quite free from the guilt of rendering
religious profession and sacred
functions subservient to worldly interest, credit, ease, and indulgence.
In these things we ought to come out and separate from Babylon, if we
would not partake of her plagues........... Instead of being the Lord's
people they are mere interlopers and usurpers who have started into life
out of that "Mystery of Iniquity"
which was concocted by their reverences Hymeneus and Philetus, Phygellus
and Hermogenes, Alexander the coppersmith, Demas and Diotrephes,
Nicolas, and other "dogs" of whom, saith the apostle, "beware" (Phil.
iii. 2).
Also from Laurie
Sovereignty Is the Issue:
Another aspect of the comparison between the kingdom and the kosmos, the
religious system of the kingdom, the religious system of the kosmos, is
this: That in the kingdom of God Jesus Christ is the undisputed King. In
the kosmos, man is god. Following that, in the kingdom of God, the Holy
Spirit is the only one empowered to distribute the authority of Christ.
In the kosmos, man decides how he will worship God and what he will do
when he worships God. Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing."
(inserted - actual verse - "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a
man remains in Me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from Me
you can do nothing." - Jn. 15:5). But man says, "I am free to determine
what I will do for God." Whenever man says that he is free to decide how
he's going to serve God, the only god he can serve is himself.
This was just posted on our egroup list for the watchman seers network,
looks like God is stirring up the Body to address these issues....
God bless,
Laurie
Whenever, I see people refer to Apostle Jimmy, Pastor Harry, I tend to
see something that is false. Not ever do I see any of the true
apostles, prophets.... of the scripture... award themselves and others
titles within
the church of the Living God and His Christ.
I would most certainly begin to search into my heart before God asking
Him to expose any of that old priesthood-laity indoctrination; that
noble-peasant mentality that has been passed down from the Babylonian
order.
As leaders, we are not to exalt ourselves above others.
Masters are to be given respect, just as leaders are also be given
respect, but this respect does not mean the attribution of titles to one
another. Masters and leaders should always understand that they are no
higher than the brethren. They have merely been called to stand before,
being an example, not to stand above and ruling over the flock as the
KJV so often mistranslated the term. Jesus distinctly warned against
the giving of titles to brethren, telling us that there was One Lord,
One Master, One teacher. There is only One Apostle, One Prophet, One
Evangelist. In Him, we are servants, called to be apostles, prophets,
evangelists, pastors and teachers, given to humanity as a sacrifice
offering. Just as Jesus laid His life down for the brethren, we are to
lay our own lives down. Jesus did not come to Lord it over humanity,
but to lay His life down for it. All are invited to receive the mercy
and the grace that comes through Him. Sadly, only a few
respond. And of those who respond, every one of them is summonsed.
Being summonsed, they are chosen. Being chosen, whether leader or not,
they are justified and then glorified. Praise God for His goodness.
Also, all this name throwing around, appears to have the carnal, "I am
of Paul, I am of Peter and I am of Appollos" syndrome about it. Why
cannot we accept the word or better the Word of God that comes through
the whosoever, without then exalting one above another? Whoever, the
whosoever is, he or she has only our God and Father, the Lord Jesus
Christ and the Holy Spirit to credit for what was of the truth anyway.
Sure hoping you'll all understand.
Ivan & Kathryn Poulter
>From Laurie by Don Nori
Every one wants to be on the cutting edge. It sounds so exciting.
There is nothing more intriguing than to be in the center of His will
and purposes. And that is how it should be. However, few people
realize what it actually means to be on that edge of God's activity.
Others may call it the cutting edge, but I call it the Brink Of Human
Disaster. For the place of His activity is just one step beyond what
we can ever do in ourselves. It is one step beyond what we can
complete in our own strength, our own wisdom...... The true disciple
does not
revel in his position, neither does he find pleasure at the precipice
of failure. But His passion to be obedient to Him who has washed him,
moves him beyond the human safety zone and into the realm of all-God
where He moves freely through the lives of those yielded to Him at
any cost. Here Lordship takes on new meaning. For here, your Lord does
His work
within you, in spite of your doctrine, in spite of your traditions, in
spite of your past, in spite of your fears.......
Three promises basically constitute the New Covenant (Hebrews 8: 10-12).
1.) I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Promise # 2 will be used for the response I would like to make to the
subject of "fleshly leadership.")
I have no problem with someone calling themselves a leader or them
allowing someone else to call them a leader in the Church. That is, if
their "leadership" is patterned after New Covenant order. This primarily
involves their making sure that promise # 2 is fulfilled in the life of
every individual believer under their oversight. Minister and overseer,
I believe, are better titles if such are necessary. Titles are only
necessary to pinpoint and define what God has called us to do. Serious
problems arise when God's people start using their titles for
recognition and vain glory. My experience has been that this could
involve any title...............
There are various things that could be keeping "leaders" in the church
from functioning according to New Covenant order. It has helped me to
be forebearing and patient toward my pastor by understanding why things
were out of order. I would encourage you to be careful not to be
distracted by a person's title, but to discern what spirit they are of.
We are called
first to love as Jesus loves - diffusing His fragrance to all. In so
doing, God can use us to bring correction where it is needed.
Gary P.
On the resurrection
Hi Jay,
I'm sorry that I waited so late to respond, so far I've just been
reading all the comments, but have not responded. I will try to
respond to your resurrection inquiry. I'm no scholar, but I've been
listening to a lot of different Pastors and reading some things on my
own.
The first resurrection is near the return of Christ, when the dead in
Christ will rise and be caught up in the clouds with the people still
living. The second resurrection has to do with the judgement of the dead
who did not believe in Christ. These people won't be resurrected until
it's close to the judgement time, I guess after the tribulation. Then
there's the 1000 years of Jesus Reign and after that, the Evil one will
be let loose to tempt the new body in Christ. At this time after the
1000 years of peace there is another event called the "White Throne
Judgement."
I think others will be resurrected then, I think these are the people
who curse God during the tribulation. It seem like after this final
judgement, eternity will begin.
thanks for listening
Stephanie
January 7, 2000
42- But Yeshua called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye
know that they which are
accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and
their great ones exercise
authority upon them.
43- But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be
great among you, shall be your minister:
44- And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be the
servant of all.
45-For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but
to minister, and give his
life a ransom for many.
Sheep following sheep can only see sheep butt before them.
When there is no vision sheep perish.
We are all called to follow The LAMB, our Shepherd, not other sheep.
A yielded will responds with "immediate obedience".
Suzin
2.) And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his
brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least
to the greatest.
3.) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and
their iniquities will I remember no more.Latter Rain Discussion Archives
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