Moving On - The Perfect is yet to Come

January 3, 2000

Moving On

As to the perfect has come, all those that responded agree that this is not the completion of the New Testament as taught by a greater part of the church but something in the last days and spritual gifts are alive and well as evidenced in our own lives. More responses to that are toward the bottom. Remember, I cannot print everything, there's too much.

As to the laying on of hands, we agree that it is in power and that we should be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit before we lay hands on anyone, more below. Also we should at least agree that just as God's power is transmitted that it is also possible for the evil influence to be transmitted in reverse through the laying on of hands. We did not all agree on that but I think that we should be open to it. It has never happened to me in that way and not to some others but we have heard instances where it did happen and it happened in the gospels. We also agree that a degree of maturity should be evident before we lay hands on others, as an elder for example and not as a novice. It was also mentioned that our faith should be radical and not conservative. As to laying on suddenly, I do not believe that the context warrants impartation but rather in violence but it doesn't matter. The passage in Greek can mean either way and I think that it could be true either way. It is not a point of contention and we do not have to agree on points that do not matter.

Unless there is more discussion, we can close these issues and get on to the next. There were a few more foundational items that Paul discussed, repentance and faith for example, which should need no discussion. The last one I would like to discuss is that of the resurrection of the dead. Now we all believe in a resurrection but what I want to discuss is the timing. There are more than one resurrection, the catching away of the saints follow a resurrection and there is a resurrection following that at some point. A resurrection before and after the millenium? This may take some study, not just opinion. Since these things have to do with the last days, it is important that the correct interpretations are taught. I have not worked it all out and I have to look back on former ways of thinking as being wrong on some points, even on my web page. How many resurrections are there? How does this contrast with those that are translated in a "twinkling of an eye? What about the resurrection to judgment? Where does the judgment come in if those who are in Jesus are not judged and those that are not have been judged already? Certainly some points to ponder, I hope we can have as much fun with it as we have already. The most recurring comment to me from you is how much you are enjoying all this. Praise God.


On laying on of hands:

I have been on both ends of very powerful and anointed times of prayer through the laying on of hands - He is real and his power is definitely for today and ON THE INCREASE! He is raising up a faithful remnant in these last days and I praise Him that I can be a part of what He is doing.

With Christian Love,

Brian Tanguay

I tend to agree that it is not wise to "lay on hands suddenly". There are two reasons I say this. One situation that I think that this scripture is addressing is the ordination of elders. It is quite possible that when thrusting someone into the place of spiritual leadership, or when endorsing that commissioning, someone might actually become a partaker of that elder's sins. The reason being that a person placed in that kind of a role when too immature for the responsibility will no doubt cause grievous problems within a church.

As to the issue of a person recieving an unclean spirit or becoming influenced by an unclean spirit through the laying on of hands, I have never seen that happen in my experience, however I can see how that it could. Transference is a serious problem, Witchcraft functions on that principle just as the laying on of hands functions under the principle of transferance.... It is not to be taken lightly, either the ordination of eldership, or the laying on of hands. Remember the sons of Sceva, when they tried to cast out the demon, in the name of Jesus, "whom Paul preached"..... Never set about to minister especially in the role of laying on of hands or in the ministry of deliverance casually and without the mind of God, and definitely know who is laying hands on you. Transferance is impartation and appropriation.... it is very easy to get caught up in the same sin that you are "trying" to free that person from... When God empowers us to be of some use to minister to some one, that is one thing, when we set about to do something ourselves that is another thing alltogether.


Dear Jay,

I believe Tina made an important point in the last forward you sent out about needing the Holy Spirit's leading to pray for someone otherwise the spirit that is on them can jump on you. Those are almost the exact words that Rick Joyner used in describing what happened to Bob Jones. (I'm assuming you know these men of God) Apparently, Bob Jones went to pray for someone without the Holy Spirit's leading and as a result a spirit of lust jumped on him which eventually led to incidents of sexual misconduct. Rick Joyner and another minister Mahesh Chavda prayed for Bob Jones and cast that spirit off him..... I believe there are important lessons to be learnt through this not the least of which is - how much we need the body of Christ - not only can we not make it without one another we will never be complete without one another.

Blessings to you...


On the perfect has come:

You are right Bro. Jay that the churches today are divided in this issue. I was born again thru an Evangelical Pastor who believe that tongues and miracles are not for today also since the Holy Bible is complete. But the word perfection that is mention in 1cor.13:10, I believe that the perfection comes when Christ returns and the imperfect disappears. Right now we are living in the dispensation of Grace wherein thru the power of the Holy Spirit, so therefore the gifts of the Holy Spirit is still available today.


Subject: the perfect

To understand the root of this doctrine (heresy) of the written word replacing the gifts of the Spirit we must understand how this teaching developed. For the first few centuries after Christ was taken to heaven the church continued to manifest supernatural gifts including tongues, healing, prophecy and miracles. As the church became accepted by the government and became the state religion it began to compromise. Along with the compromises came a loss of spiritual power as expressed in the gifts. There were, of course, exceptions such as St. Francis who manifested most of the gifts during his lifetime, but this was rare.

As the gifts disappeared it became necessary to explain why the church had lost much of its power. At the same time that the gifts were declining the canon of scripture was in the process of being recognized. The last book to be accepted was Revelation. Upon completion of the canon a small group of self appointed bishops, headed by the "Holy See", arose to claim a special rulership over the church and claiming to be the sole interpreters of holy writ.

Thus, sadly, the written word of God was made unavailable to the unlearned and the gifts were said to be unnecessary. When the reformation began, much of the heresy of the ecclesiastical church was taken over into the protestant churches and has been perpetuated since, only to be restored to portions of the church in the ninetieth and twentieth centuries.

Donald E. Brown

On doctrine:

I believe that if 5 people were going to minister to one person and those 5 were apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher, they would each deal with that person in a different way..... I believe that now, more than ever, we must BE the love of God and quit worrying so much about doctrine and if we are doing it right or not.

Cathy Grant

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