Love will still find a way

January 29, 2000

Hey all,

Well no-one said that this will all be easy. I think that it would be good for me to back up a little bit and clarify the issue at hand. When we first started there were not as many people on the list but it was decided that we should take on the foundational controversies first and started with baptism, I'll get to that as I go. A few of you have expressed the idea that I may have been too dogmatic as to not being able to retreat from a certain point of view. That point of view is probably that I mentioned that "these things that He has taught me are true, nothing anyone can say can change that and I cannot possibly deny or ever doubt that it is true." Now what I was referring to was the fact that in truth I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. We are not discussing here the validity of speaking in tongues, we all agree on that. We all know that many of us have the gift of tongues and interpretation and there is the prayer language of speaking to God in a heavenly language. That is another issue. What we are discussing is, if it is true that speaking in tongues is the only evidence of the Holy Ghost as many have asserted. The overwhelming majority here agree that love is a more excellent way and is the true evidence. The word heresy was thrown about and we now know that this majority is considered heretical by at least one who believe that tongues is the only evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It will not be the last time that those who stand up for truth are called heretics by those who believe that they have a different truth.

Now as to my dogmatism, I would like to give you an example with the first issue that we discussed and that is water baptism. Since most of this group has been added since we discussed it you may find the baptism question addressed at The point I am making here involves those who would say that you must be baptized in the name of Jesus or you are not saved. Now although I believe that we should follow the apostles example of baptizing in the name of Jesus as a response to the great commission, the important thing is whether you have been raised in newness of life that validates the baptism and not just the formula used by the preachers words. That means that it doesn't matter how you were baptized as much as the Christian walk thereafter. Now there are real hatemongers in the church that actually teach against your salvation on this issue. They are indeed hatemongers, which as a strong word but those in love and truth would never question a persons salvation over this. This generated no discussion whatsoever in the group, what I said is true.

This is my point: What if someone were to say to you that you were not saved because you have not been baptized the way that they were? This is ridiculous. It is another divisive lie of satan designed to produce a schism in the church and to draw others to themselves that would perpetuate the division. If you are truly saved, you know it, there is nothing in the world that could convince you differently unless your faith was so weak that your salvation would come into question. If you have the faith that confirms your salvation and the spirit bears witness to your spirit, nothing that anyone can say will alter that and you will stand up for it as truth. Exactly my point to the question at hand. There is nothing that can be said or has been said concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit that could alter the fact that I know that this has happened to me, that it was of God and that it was genuine. When I was baptized in the Holy Ghost, I prophesied, I did not speak in tongues. Whether I, or any one of us have spoken in tongues before or after this experience is not the issue, or if we have prophesied, or any other gift unless of course, it is love. If there is a doctrine in the church that says I, or any one else has not been baptized in the Holy Ghost unless we spoke in tongues, it must be a false doctrine, sent here by satan himself to cause division. I cannot think any other way about it for to do so would question my own spirituality and this is not possible for me. So if I seem to be unyielding on this point, it is because I have the faith to believe in what God has done for me without question, not that we must only come to my own truth but because it is truth and to teach otherwise on this is false.

For those of you understanding what I am saying is true, there is no more to discuss. There are a few however, in the spirit of love that would want to agree to disagree from a sense of unity toward the whole body of Christ that would compromise in agreement to truth for the sake of that unity. This is not what we are doing here. There is truth and there is error. Jesus is coming for a church that is holy, spotless, without wrinkle or any thing false. And we are asked to speak the same thing. It is true that we do not have to agree on every little point but on many things we do. Democratically, this group has already come to the same conclusions that I have on this, but that's not good enough. There were three that were taken off the list over this issue. Two asked to be taken off and I had to cut another because he was prideful, contentious, took everything out of context, was against everything that we are doing and did not have the spirit of truth in him. That is unfortunate but to be taken off is a good thing, not a bad thing. This makes the group closer to true unity and more in agreement to the spirit of truth. Pray that Jesus is truly in charge here and the truth can be readily recognized and acknowledged within ALL of us.

Now that we have discussed these things, let us go on for more. We are not done with this. Is any or all spiritual gifts evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Or is it only love and no spiritual gifts? I prophesied, others speak in tongues. If there are false prophets in the church, there may be false tongue speakers as well. I know that there are false apostles and false teachers, I have seen and heard them. We all see prophets that speak pretentiously and seek only to promote themselves. I have witnessed what I thought were those pretending to speak in tongues. There are others who have witnessed a false spirit speaking in tongues. I have heard the real thing and I have heard true interpretation and prophesy. What of the false? As another has asked, where do we draw the line as to what is heresy? When do we identify heresy and error? If what we are now teaching is heresy to others, are they heretics? And if there is so much in the gifts that are false, then how can we be sure of these things being evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost anyway?

Love one another,

Jay. writes:

<< I can ask God a question and He miraculously answers me through the voice of others. That is only a sign to me, others have no idea. I have done this many times. My wife says I spoke in tongues while >>

God has been doing this for me since 1981. I claim Him as my Lord, the King of King and my beloved husband. My King of Kings brought me to Queens from Houston 6 months ago and reading that He too speaks to you in the manner He does me made me smile. Definitely we are an apple to His eyes. Amen




I completely enjoyed your treatise on love.. and of course, laughed, cried and prayed over the comments of the writers.

It is so sad that so many are seeking "tongues" and not the Christ of Calvary, neither the GIFT GIVER!

Every time I bought a pair of shoes, THE TONGUES CAME WITH THEM!

I have never known anyone to go to a shoe store and ask for "a pair of tongues"..

Let us seek HIM and all things He has for us will come. Extremism is not the answer...


BE BLESSED my brother.


Hi Jay;

I am unsettled regarding continuing on with this forum. Initially I thought it was great, a real opportunity to share with like-minded members of the same Body. Your stated goal of bringing unity to the Body was also very appealing to me.

Unfortunately, it occurs to me that what has actually happened is a polarization. I see people requesting to be removed from the list and find myself thinking of doing the same. I'm not sure now, especially after reading the last couple e-mails regarding tongues, if this forum is helping to bring the Body together or rather reinforcing differences.

I've noticed a shift in the posts from, "let's discuss this issue and see if we can come to a consensus" to one of, "I know I'm right and nobody will ever be able to tell me differently." That attitude certainly doesn't inspire me to participate with an open mind - rather I find myself getting defensive of my limited understandings whether they be right or wrong.

With regards to the matter of speaking in tongues, several of us have mentioned that there are two different uses for speaking in tongues but I haven't seen it get addressed by you:

1. a personal prayer language - this may or may not be "the evidence" of baptism but it definitely IS NOT the GIFT of speaking in tongues. It is altogether different and available to EVERY Christian baptized with the Holy Spirit, whether or not they choose (free will) to use it. It is used in your prayer closet or when the Lord gives you a burden for someone/something and maybe you don't know how to pray at that moment. The Holy Spirit told me it was VERY important to use "my prayer language" everyday.

2. The Gift of Tongues - one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be used in a public setting as the Spirit leads, when there is a known interpreter present (there will always be one present if it is the Spirit who is prompting the gift and not flesh). This manifestation is completely different from the one described above.

Think about healing - we all know that healing is available today, yet the ways people are healed can be different. For example, there is the GIFT of healing which typically involves an instantaneous healing at the hands of a Spirit-filled believer. We say that person is "operating in the gifts". This is the same Spirit and type of GIFT as #2 above.

Then there is the more common healing process which involves repeated prayer and typically a gradual healing process over time until there is victory. I saw an excellent teaching about this from Dutch Sheets. He says that God reminded him about the bowls being filled with the prayers of His people (Revelations) before being mixed with fire from His altar. In other words, sometimes God chooses to heal people through the continued prayers of His people "until the bowl is filled" and then He sends the answer to the prayer. This is NOT the GIFT of healing in operation but rather God honoring His Word and answering the prayers of His children to the glory of Jesus Christ.

I don't know if this helps or hurts but my intentions are to be honest and speak with love.

Your Brother,

Brian Tanguay

Brother Jay,

I have pretty much sat back, read with interest, and observed. I have refrained up to this point from comment. I do, however, wish to agree with you: Love should find a way. You and I don't have to agree on every point in order to fellowship. I am disturbed by some of the attitudes I sense in some of the responses. It does not seem to be in keeping with the sense of Christian love. Some of these folks seem to need reminding that, "Let him who stands beware, lest he fall." Please keep me on the mailing list. I will participate more in the future.

Yours in His Service,

Dr. Jesse W. Sellers

Hi Jay,

It could be possible for someone to be more devoted to an ideology than to the Lord. This could include someone who has been baptized with the Holy Ghost. It does not make you immune to deception. I did not have all my "ducks in a row" doctrinally when I was baptized and I cannot say I totally do today. Most of us would admit to the same. I just thank God he has given me a teachable heart. May he give me the wisdom to impart it to others.

"Heresy", according to Galatians 5, is a work of the flesh, or more specifically a doctrine that has originated from man (flesh). That does not mean we should go around calling people heretics because they believe such. Where to draw the line here, I do not know.

When what we believe is challenged by something contrary, our reaction could determine the origin of what we believe. The Pharisees' insecurity was revealed when their doctrines and traditions were challenged by Jesus. They became defensive, angry, jealous, etc. Their insecurity revealed the true origin of their beliefs. "All flesh is grass...the Word of our God shall stand forever."


Gary P.


Just wanted to take an opportunity to reply to some things that Bill had stated in his comments on the "tongues" issue. Please realize that I am not doing this as an attack against our brother, I simply want to point out several items that I think are important and of interest.

Concerning the statement: "If you are asked to pray for someone for the Baptism, and there are NO VISIBLE SIGNS< how would you know when to stop praying??" Presumably, if you are hearing the Lord, you will know when to stop praying for that individual. How do you pray for anyone about anything if you don't know when to quit? To believe that God will do it the same way every time for every individual (give evidence the instant you pray for them) is to put God in a box. Do we often do that (put Him in a box)........certainly, but can we, certainly not! That is utter foolishness. God is God and He is sovereign. We cannot dictate to Him, how and when He is going to do anything.

Second, our dear brother contradicts himself quite clearly, which simply means that he does not have a complete understanding of the scriptures he is quoting. This is not surprising as NONE of us have a complete understanding of either the scriptures or God. That is why "every joint must supply." On the one hand, Bill states: "HE, is a gentleman and will not go where HE is not welcome." which implies that our will is stronger than God's. Can anyone, including Bill, truly believe this?

Then he states: "Paul also said that the gifts were placed as the Holy Spirit saw fit to each one severally as He wills," Is this not exactly the opposite of what is stated in the previous quote? The gifts were placed as "THE HOLY SPIRIT SAW FIT." Not as we saw fit. We don't pick and choose the gift and the time. The Holy Spirit supplies those as He sees fit.

My reply to that statement"HE, is a gentleman and will not go where HE is not welcome." is: Oh really? Who was it that hardened pharoah's heart. Was it not God. Not only that, but he did it against pharoah's will. READ the scriptures and understand them with your spirit. They clearly state this. Pharaoh tried to repent several times, and each time, God hardened his heart further. Who's will was the stronger, mortal, carnal pharoahs or God's, who is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent?

If God was a gentlemen and only goes where He is welcome, we would not have most of the new testament and all of the awesome revelation contained therein. What do I mean? Who had the greatest revelation of our Lord and His kingdom................Paul. Try telling Paul that God is a gentleman. Paul was not kneeling down in repentance at some altar praying the sinners prayer, crying out to the Lord, begging Him for forgiveness, when he received Him. Paul (Saul) was on the road, on his way to persecute and most likely kill more Christians when the Lord moved in His sovereignty and literally blasted him, on the road to Damascus. Saul most assuredly was not inviting God to do what He did, but God did it anyway. When will the church open their hearts and eyes and realize the true sovereignty of God?

Anyway, I just wanted to share those thoughts with the rest of the group.

In His Grace, Peace and Love,


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