Love will still find a way
Hey all,
Well no-one said that this will all be easy. I think that it would be
good for me to back up a little bit and clarify the issue at hand. When
we first started there were not as many people on the list but it was
decided that we should take on the foundational controversies first and
started with baptism, I'll get to that as I go. A few of you have
expressed the idea that I may have been too dogmatic as to not being
able to retreat from a certain point of view. That point of view is
probably that I mentioned that "these things that He has taught me are
true, nothing anyone can say can change that and I cannot possibly deny
or ever doubt that it is true." Now what I was referring to was the fact
that in truth I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. We are not discussing
here the validity of speaking in tongues, we all agree on that. We all
know that many of us have the gift of tongues and interpretation and
there is the prayer language of speaking to God in a heavenly language.
That is another issue. What we are discussing is, if it is true that
speaking in tongues is the only evidence of the Holy Ghost as many have
asserted. The overwhelming majority here agree that love is a more
excellent way and is the true evidence. The word heresy was thrown about
and we now know that this majority is considered heretical by at least
one who believe that tongues is the only evidence of the baptism of the
Holy Ghost. It will not be the last time that those who stand up for
truth are called heretics by those who believe that they have a
different truth.
Now as to my dogmatism, I would like to give you an example with the
first issue that we discussed and that is water baptism. Since most of
this group has been added since we discussed it you may find the baptism
question addressed at http://latter-rain.com/perspectives/baptism.htm.
The point I am making here involves those who would say that you must be
baptized in the name of Jesus or you are not saved. Now although I
believe that we should follow the apostles example of baptizing in the
name of Jesus as a response to the great commission, the important thing
is whether you have been raised in newness of life that validates the
baptism and not just the formula used by the preachers words. That means
that it doesn't matter how you were baptized as much as the Christian
walk thereafter. Now there are real hatemongers in the church that
actually teach against your salvation on this issue. They are indeed
hatemongers, which as a strong word but those in love and truth would
never question a persons salvation over this. This generated no
discussion whatsoever in the group, what I said is true.
This is my point: What if someone were to say to you that you were not
saved because you have not been baptized the way that they were? This is
ridiculous. It is another divisive lie of satan designed to produce a
schism in the church and to draw others to themselves that would
perpetuate the division. If you are truly saved, you know it, there is
nothing in the world that could convince you differently unless your
faith was so weak that your salvation would come into question. If you
have the faith that confirms your salvation and the spirit bears witness
to your spirit, nothing that anyone can say will alter that and you will
stand up for it as truth. Exactly my point to the question at hand.
There is nothing that can be said or has been said concerning the
baptism of the Holy Spirit that could alter the fact that I know that
this has happened to me, that it was of God and that it was genuine.
When I was baptized in the Holy Ghost, I prophesied, I did not speak in
tongues. Whether I, or any one of us have spoken in tongues before or
after this experience is not the issue, or if we have prophesied, or any
other gift unless of course, it is love. If there is a doctrine in the
church that says I, or any one else has not been baptized in the Holy
Ghost unless we spoke in tongues, it must be a false doctrine, sent here
by satan himself to cause division. I cannot think any other way about
it for to do so would question my own spirituality and this is not
possible for me. So if I seem to be unyielding on this point, it is
because I have the faith to believe in what God has done for me without
question, not that we must only come to my own truth but because it is
truth and to teach otherwise on this is false.
For those of you understanding what I am saying is true, there is no
more to discuss. There are a few however, in the spirit of love that
would want to agree to disagree from a sense of unity toward the whole
body of Christ that would compromise in agreement to truth for the sake
of that unity. This is not what we are doing here. There is truth and
there is error. Jesus is coming for a church that is holy, spotless,
without wrinkle or any thing false. And we are asked to speak the same
thing. It is true that we do not have to agree on every little point but
on many things we do. Democratically, this group has already come to the
same conclusions that I have on this, but that's not good enough. There
were three that were taken off the list over this issue. Two asked to be
taken off and I had to cut another because he was prideful, contentious,
took everything out of context, was against everything that we are doing
and did not have the spirit of truth in him. That is unfortunate but to
be taken off is a good thing, not a bad thing. This makes the group
closer to true unity and more in agreement to the spirit of truth. Pray
that Jesus is truly in charge here and the truth can be readily
recognized and acknowledged within ALL of us.
Now that we have discussed these things, let us go on for more. We are
not done with this. Is any or all spiritual gifts evidence of the
baptism of the Holy Ghost? Or is it only love and no spiritual gifts? I
prophesied, others speak in tongues. If there are false prophets in the
church, there may be false tongue speakers as well. I know that there
are false apostles and false teachers, I have seen and heard them. We
all see prophets that speak pretentiously and seek only to promote
themselves. I have witnessed what I thought were those pretending to
speak in tongues. There are others who have witnessed a false spirit
speaking in tongues. I have heard the real thing and I have heard true
interpretation and prophesy. What of the false? As another has asked,
where do we draw the line as to what is heresy? When do we identify
heresy and error? If what we are now teaching is heresy to others, are
they heretics? And if there is so much in the gifts that are false, then
how can we be sure of these things being evidence of the baptism of the
Holy Ghost anyway?
Love one another,
Jay.
jay@latter-rain.com writes:
<< I can ask God a question and He miraculously answers me
through the voice of others. That is only a sign to me, others have no
idea. I have done this many times. My wife says I spoke in tongues
while >>
God has been doing this for me since 1981. I claim Him as my Lord, the
King
of King and my beloved husband. My King of Kings brought me to Queens
from
Houston 6 months ago and reading that He too speaks to you in the
manner He
does me made me smile. Definitely we are an apple to His eyes. Amen
Loveholy
Jay
AMEN!
I completely enjoyed your treatise on love.. and of course, laughed,
cried
and prayed over the comments of the writers.
It is so sad that so many are seeking "tongues" and not the Christ of
Calvary, neither the GIFT GIVER!
Every time I bought a pair of shoes, THE TONGUES CAME WITH THEM!
I have never known anyone to go to a shoe store and ask for "a pair
of
tongues"..
Let us seek HIM and all things He has for us will come.
Extremism is not the answer...
LOVE IS!
BE BLESSED my
brother.
Paul
Hi Jay;
I am unsettled regarding continuing on with this forum. Initially I
thought
it was great, a real opportunity to share with like-minded members of
the
same Body. Your stated goal of bringing unity to the Body was also
very
appealing to me.
Unfortunately, it occurs to me that what has actually happened is a
polarization. I see people requesting to be removed from the list and
find
myself thinking of doing the same. I'm not sure now, especially after
reading the last couple e-mails regarding tongues, if this forum is
helping
to bring the Body together or rather reinforcing differences.
I've noticed a shift in the posts from, "let's discuss this issue and
see if
we can come to a consensus" to one of, "I know I'm right and nobody
will
ever be able to tell me differently." That attitude certainly doesn't
inspire me to participate with an open mind - rather I find myself
getting
defensive of my limited understandings whether they be right or wrong.
With regards to the matter of speaking in tongues, several of us have
mentioned that there are two different uses for speaking in tongues but
I
haven't seen it get addressed by you:
1. a personal prayer language - this may or may not be "the evidence"
of
baptism but it definitely IS NOT the GIFT of speaking in tongues. It
is
altogether different and available to EVERY Christian baptized with the
Holy
Spirit, whether or not they choose (free will) to use it. It is used
in
your prayer closet or when the Lord gives you a burden for
someone/something
and maybe you don't know how to pray at that moment. The Holy Spirit
told
me it was VERY important to use "my prayer language" everyday.
2. The Gift of Tongues - one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be
used in
a public setting as the Spirit leads, when there is a known interpreter
present (there will always be one present if it is the Spirit who is
prompting the gift and not flesh). This manifestation is completely
different from the one described above.
Think about healing - we all know that healing is available today, yet
the
ways people are healed can be different. For example, there is the
GIFT of
healing which typically involves an instantaneous healing at the hands
of a
Spirit-filled believer. We say that person is "operating in the
gifts".
This is the same Spirit and type of GIFT as #2 above.
Then there is the more common healing process which involves repeated
prayer
and typically a gradual healing process over time until there is
victory. I
saw an excellent teaching about this from Dutch Sheets. He says that
God
reminded him about the bowls being filled with the prayers of His
people
(Revelations) before being mixed with fire from His altar. In other
words,
sometimes God chooses to heal people through the continued prayers of
His
people "until the bowl is filled" and then He sends the answer to the
prayer. This is NOT the GIFT of healing in operation but rather God
honoring His Word and answering the prayers of His children to the
glory of
Jesus Christ.
I don't know if this helps or hurts but my intentions are to be honest
and
speak with love.
Your Brother,
Brian Tanguay
Brother Jay,
I have pretty much sat back, read with interest, and observed. I have
refrained up to this point from comment. I do, however, wish to agree
with
you: Love should find a way. You and I don't have to agree on every
point in
order to fellowship. I am disturbed by some of the attitudes I sense in
some
of the responses. It does not seem to be in keeping with the sense of
Christian love. Some of these folks seem to need reminding that, "Let
him
who stands beware, lest he fall." Please keep me on the mailing list. I
will
participate more in the future. Yours in His Service,
Dr. Jesse W. Sellers
Hi Jay,
It could be possible for someone to be more devoted to an ideology than
to the Lord. This could include someone who has been baptized with the
Holy Ghost. It does not make you immune to deception. I did not have
all
my "ducks in a row" doctrinally when I was baptized and I cannot say I
totally do today. Most of us would admit to the same. I just thank God
he
has given me a teachable heart. May he give me the wisdom to impart it
to
others.
"Heresy", according to Galatians 5, is a work of the flesh, or more
specifically a doctrine that has originated from man (flesh). That does
not mean we should go around calling people heretics because they
believe
such. Where to draw the line here, I do not know.
When what we believe is challenged by something contrary, our reaction
could determine the origin of what we believe. The Pharisees'
insecurity
was revealed when their doctrines and traditions were challenged by
Jesus. They became defensive, angry, jealous, etc. Their insecurity
revealed the true origin of their beliefs. "All flesh is grass...the
Word
of our God shall stand forever."
Blessings,
Gary P.
Jay,
Just wanted to take an opportunity to reply to some things that
Bill
had stated in his comments on the "tongues" issue. Please realize that
I am
not doing this as an attack against our brother, I simply want to
point out
several items that I think are important and of interest.
Concerning the statement: "If you are asked to pray for someone
for the
Baptism, and there are NO VISIBLE SIGNS< how would you know when to
stop
praying??" Presumably, if you are hearing the Lord, you will know when
to stop
praying for that individual. How do you pray for anyone about anything
if you
don't know when to quit? To believe that God will do it the same way
every time
for every individual (give evidence the instant you pray for them) is
to put
God in a box. Do we often do that (put Him in a box)........certainly,
but can
we, certainly not! That is utter foolishness. God is God and He is
sovereign.
We cannot dictate to Him, how and when He is going to do anything.
Second, our dear brother contradicts himself quite clearly,
which simply
means that he does not have a complete understanding of the scriptures
he is
quoting. This is not surprising as NONE of us have a complete
understanding of
either the scriptures or God. That is why "every joint must supply."
On the
one hand, Bill states: "HE, is a gentleman and will not go where HE is
not
welcome." which implies that our will is stronger than God's. Can
anyone,
including Bill, truly believe this?
Then he states: "Paul also said that the gifts were placed as
the Holy
Spirit saw fit to each one severally as He wills," Is this not
exactly the
opposite of what is stated in the previous quote? The gifts were
placed as
"THE HOLY SPIRIT SAW FIT." Not as we saw fit. We don't pick and
choose the
gift and the time. The Holy Spirit supplies those as He sees fit.
My reply to that statement"HE, is a gentleman and will not go
where HE
is not welcome." is: Oh really? Who was it that hardened pharoah's
heart. Was
it not God. Not only that, but he did it against pharoah's will. READ
the
scriptures and understand them with your spirit. They clearly state
this.
Pharaoh tried to repent several times, and each time, God hardened his
heart
further. Who's will was the stronger, mortal, carnal pharoahs or
God's, who is
eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent?
If God was a gentlemen and only goes where He is welcome, we
would not
have most of the new testament and all of the awesome revelation
contained
therein. What do I mean? Who had the greatest revelation of our Lord
and His
kingdom................Paul. Try telling Paul that God is a gentleman.
Paul
was not kneeling down in repentance at some altar praying the sinners
prayer,
crying out to the Lord, begging Him for forgiveness, when he received
Him.
Paul (Saul) was on the road, on his way to persecute and most likely
kill more
Christians when the Lord moved in His sovereignty and literally
blasted him,
on the road to Damascus. Saul most assuredly was not inviting God to
do what
He did, but God did it anyway. When will the church open their hearts
and eyes
and realize the true sovereignty of God?
Anyway, I just wanted to share those thoughts with the rest of
the
group.
In His Grace, Peace and Love,
Gil
January 29, 2000
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