How Do We Heal the Pain?
Many of us have been hurt by church leadership. Our hearts have been broken by people that we have trusted over our souls. It enbitters us and we in turn use it as an excuse to reject them back. Remember the ministry of Jesus as He read from the book of Isaiah? He was sent to heal the brokenhearted. Jesus is our deliverer; He is the one that will heal our broken hearts. But listen everyone. The sad thing is that many do not want the pain to go away. If we hold on to the pain, we can punish the pain givers, we cherish the pain, we feel that it makes us superior over those that cause the pain, we use our prophetic sensitivities to curse them, lash out at them, prophesy against them, use them as the brunt of our anger and resentment. We do not endure our afflictions with joy, we fail the trials and instead of Jesus being able to heal our broken hearts and allow His living water to flow through us, the heart becomes enflamed and consumed in the fire.
Jesus is our example. He was bruised for our iniquities; He did not deserve the pain. He was whipped, spat upon; He bled and suffered the ultimate punishment. What was His response? "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
It is hard to forgive. We judge the church for the actions of a few. The church is the body of Christ where the wheat and the tares are allowed to grow together. That will all change soon as you well know. But how do we heal the pain that has been afflicted by those that we trusted? We freely gave our hearts to be broken, we allowed ourselves to be abused and victimized. It hurts.
There is another side however. Sometimes spiritual gifted Christians have an arrogance about them (us) that turns other people off. Sometime long ago, we were baptized in the Holy Spirit and ever since then, we go around as if we are some kind of super saints with a special message to an unenlightened church. We may not have had that same infilling for years gone by and still walk around as the oracles of God in the attempt to get other people as high as we are and into the holy of holies. We exalt ourselves as part of the five fold ministry that others must have if they are to be among the people of God. We try to make the church in our own image. Some are rejected for the right reasons, some for the wrong reasons. Let's try to understand the difference.
As Jesus read those words that day in the synagogue, He took on the role of the deliverer of the captives. He has not forsaken the church; He loves the church, and gave Himself for it. We need to have the wisdom of Solomon and lift up our own hands with his same words "The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us."
When Israel was in captivity, she did not cease to be Israel. The prophets of old did not curse Israel, they cried over her condition. We should be counted among the faithful and count those that would despise the church among the false prophets. Have you heard these false prophets saying that Jesus has left the church? When you leave the four walls of the church, you do not leave Babylon, that is another process. We are a remnant taken out of captivity to restore the temple of the living God. If you need to have a we and them mentality, this is it. That does not mean that the people left behind are not God's people because we know that the commandment to leave Babylon is "Get out of her, My people." The church is still all of "us." We need to stop thinking of Babylon in the physical and understand that her "mystery" is spiritual. There are efforts to get people to leave the church; it is in the flesh, not in the spirit. Jesus' prayer still rings true that we are to be One and that is physical togetherness as well as spiritual.
Much dialogue this time and many questions addressed. There has been pain and there has been wisdom to understand. Still, it needs to be told from our personal experiences.
Have you been hurt by church leadership? Has the church turned you off? Why do you think so? How do we heal the pain? We cannot give up on the church without becoming apostate ourselves, don't kid yourself. But where do we go from here? The church is in big trouble and most are not even aware. These are questions that must be answered from the spirit of God. No more time for flesh and the wrath of bitterness.
Get back to us on this one. How do we heal the pain?
Jay
Jay,
Sounds like you are hearing from God. a few months back the Lord spoke to me and said I need transitional men not just men who can prophesy what is wrong or just see where he wants to take the church at large whether in the church or out of it what we need is Crucified men men who are dead to themselves and their own agendas, men who will see to it that the Kingdom of God is built, not their own personal kingdom.
Any way, I asked the Lord what a transitional man was. He said, men who have the grace to see where the Church is at, where she is going and have the compassion to lead my people one step at a time to where she needs to be, men who are broken, crucified, dead to themselves who ever live to make intercession for the church, whose only passion is to see the bride made ready for the bridegrooms coming. that may mean for some to minister inside of what they call the system to bring people into intimacy with God, it will take tremendous Grace and wisdom to not hack people to pieces, yet not become a part of what is spiritually dead and find those who truly aspire to become the Bride of Christ. The Bride is holy without spot or blemish. She will not be immature at his coming she will have had the spots removed which by the way is the false Prophets and Teachers according to jude and 2 peter 2.
What we need today is men like Charles Finney and Evan Roberts and brother Seymore and Frank Bartleman men who will lay down their lives in intercessions and weepings and fastings and prayer, we need modern day Elijahs and John the baptists, men on fire with the spirit who will not compromise, Men who will lead the church back to being a House of prayer for all Nations, who will call a solemn assembly and who have authority to do so because they are denying themselves taking up their crosses daily and following Jesus, learning to become the servants of all and not desiring the preminence or Lording it over the flock of Jesus Christ but who will in the Fear of the Lord provide Godly oversight, Men who are dead to building their own ministries, who will be Spiritual Fathers with no strings attached and who will pour every thing the lord has given them into the next generation, who will lay down their lives in Travail till Christ be formed in their spiritual sons and daughters, who will be tough when they need to be tough and weep with those who weep, men who bear the image of our Lord Jesus Christ, who have chosen by God in the furnace of affliction and made partakers of His Divine nature, Those who are not manpleasers but God pleasers who will say what needs to be said and not what the church wants to hear, who will come to the pulpits clothed with the unction of the spirit because they have spent days in their prayer closets before delivering the word of the Lord to the people of God, Men who will lay hold of the horns of the Altar and not let go till Father sends an earth shaking tidal wave of his glory across the nations to bring the harvest that we may hasten the return of our beloved Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, men who have went down into the depths of Gethsemene and had their self life burned out of them in the presence of a Holy God. Men who are fearless who know the terror of the Lord and because of that they will persuade men to turn from idols to the Living God, may God soon release apostolic and prophetic men of such stature that he has been preparing in the caves for many years.
Kevin Nugent
Jay I am rather new to this forum. I have been blessed by what I do receive though. I greet you in the name of the Lord. As noted above, I am Le. I correspond with you electronically from Flint, Michigan. I first got word of this as I was seeking more literature from Apostle Tim Early. He ministered the Word of the Lord to us abut a year ago. Anyway, it is my belief that we have not understood what we read, therefore producing within us a half baked truth, which is no truth at all. Jesus is the Lord. No two ways of dividing it. By Him (God) being birthed into the earth, He produced a new "Race". A new creation, definitely the first of its kind. Although He came to His own, they couldn't receive it. As many today won't. He (Jesus) has rejected our form of religious systems. We just haven't embraced it yet.
In the Book of Revelation 1:12, 13...etc. It speaks about the Apostle John being in a certain place for the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ. In this certain place, he got a revelation of the Lord. There was something that the Lord gave to me about this. Apostle John was standing in a certain position or stance, when the Lord spoke unto him. From that position, according to Revelation 1:12, he was prompted to turn from. Yes, John was an Apostle, and yes he loved the Lord, but there was another dimension that Jesus was introducing unto him that he had never experienced nor seen. The Word said that he heard a voice, and he "turned". The direction, position, or stance in which he stood may have been suffice for a certain time, but now it required a "turn". After he turned, it then said he "saw". What did he see? He seen the direction of the church. Please review this for yourself. He John seen 7 golden lampstands (candlesticks), and Jesus was in the middle of them. He seen the direction or destiny of the church. It was Gold. Gold is symbolic of divinity. Like the Ark of covenant.
Gold--wood--Gold. Which details the Lord Jesus Christ. God on the inside, wrapped in flesh, and the flesh covered by the "anointing". Gold-wood-Gold. As we know about wood, it is expresses humanity. (carnal man) Gold expresses deity or divinity. Anyway, what John seen from a "turned" or repented position was the unveiling of the Lord, and destiny of the church. The church is the seven golden lampstands. According to Number 8:1- 4, it is a beaten work. Or a "turned" work. Necessary for purification. I'll can detail later, but in essence, when we hear, we must turn, upon turning, we'll be able to see. The church is being made into a pure work. what I believe that we are experiencing is the process of Gold purification. The burning off of Wood.
In Christ,
Le
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Thanks for that Le,
And of course, that turning is repentance itself, which is the main message to the seven churches (the golden candlesticks) to become that pure work. The letters to the seven churches are a perfect example of what our message should be. We are not to extinguish the flame like many are trying to do but rather to fan the flame through self-examination and a return to holiness to make the light even brighter. This is what perfects the Bride. Good thinking.
Jay
Hi Jay,
It is good to have you back.
I would just like to share my experience. My husband and I were out of the church for about two year, but we felt so lonely. We've tried to meet with other Christian to seek the Lord and worship in a more informal way, but it did not worked out. So we are now back to a small church (about 50 members). It is a Brazilian church were everybody speaks Portuguese as we do. We feel blessed there most of the time. The pastor is a young man, about 25 years old, very enthusiastic, committed and compassionated. But it is a very very legalistic church. There is a lot of preaching about works, and how you have to deserve your salvation by doing what is right, tittles, fasting and how powerful Satan is. Few are really close to the Lord. This makes my heart so sad. I have cry at night before the Lord because of that. My husband and I have been sharing individually with the pastor and other members about a more deep relationship with the Lord. Some people, specially those who are struggling within themselves, listen to us and come to us for more. But many times, after a difficult-to-listen Sunday sermon, we just feel like leaving it all.
Thanks for your words it has help me to think about the church with more compassion.
Blessings,
Ana
Hi Jay. really glad you're back!
I have been involved in house church on and off for 25 years and I have found just as much Babylon in a home as I have in a
Cathedral. Yes I do believe the church is in Babylon but it has nothing to do with FORM, it has to do with Hearts. When we
have church which is dominated, controlled and run by a few people you have a system which is an oganization not the living
breathing organism called the Body of Christ. There must be equality and respect for the giftedness and grace of God there
is on EVERY member of the Body. When you create positions you create an organization. When you give people authority which
the current apostolic movement is doing, (a whole other topic) you undermine the authority of the Holy Spirit in the
church. The five fold ministry is ONLY about the grace of God meeting the needs of the Body and spreading the Gospel. It is
not about power (authority) or position.
In most churches they talk about equipping the saints and so they teach and teach and teach and teach, but never create an
opportunity for these members to do anything. They keep them on the sidelines, waiting for that stamp of approval which
never comes. Even new born christians can bear fruit, what must we wait for in order to be "fit" for service to Christ. The
church is in this way a determent to the propagation of the Gospel. It is carnal and corrupt, but that corruption has
nothing to do with FORM or the location of your meetings. It is the hearts of the men and women who participate in the
church and use it for their personal gain.
Even the best churches (home or otherwise) start with good intentions but gradually someone takes over and the whole
atmosphere changes. We are so polite that we would rather leave the church and avoid a conflict (the carnal nature) than
fight for what God wants to do through her. The best way to prevent being hijacked is to know from the beginning that
someone will try to take from you your freedom. If you can warn people and equip them for a "friendly" takeover right from
the beginning, then when it comes the whole group will be prepared and able to overthrow those who want the church for their own glory.
Lately the Lord has been showing me that house churches can work very well with traditional church because in small groups
there are things you can't do in big groups, and in big groups there are things you can't do in small groups. Just because
the church started in homes does not mean that that is God's ideal, preferred or only way of doing church. It seems to me
that He has allowed both forms (small group and larger corporate group) to exist and my sense is it is because both are
valid and work well together. We should take the best of both forms and run with it.
Paul Weigel
www.theforerunner.net
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Hi Paul,
Long time, no hear from, glad to be back.
You bring up something that I had to stop and think about. The question is if the church "is Babylon" but we must really get to the obvious conclusion that the church has been taken captive and "in Babylon." I knew that you have been involved with the home church movement and I agree with everything you say here. Now, many of us have come out of that confusion but this is not the system that comprises Jesus' body. We are the church, to renounce the institutional church as Babylon is to renounce the body. Many in the institutional church will be used to restore the temple, many will choose to stay in Babylon. The Bride is not a cult apart from the body of Christ, she is a body that has prepared herself as perfect. Jesus has not rejected the body but will spit out what offends and I believe that love and unity are proper plumb lines. If we take medicine to rid our own body of viruses, we do not renounce the body, we renounce the entities that are attacking the body. We are to restore a temple that is outside of Babylon, when we leave, we do not become less of a church but more. I believe that this is the correct meaning of scripture and the proper attitude toward the church. And I think that the point you make that we should work together is very important. Traditional churches, home churches, big and small churches, all churches working together. A new thing. What an idea.
Thanks Paul,
Jay
Dear Jay,
I am in agreement with the fact that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church. And I think that the enemy recognizes that also, so he has allowed the Church, the Body, to fight against itself. It is like an heart attack, when a man continually works, smokes, drinks, or anything excessively against His Body, his heart attacks him for it was not created to be that way. And when the Church, The Body, continues to do things that it was not created or formed or purposed to do it comes under attack from itself. We were made to make a difference in the World and to express the Love of God for the World. When we get so tied up into who is right, who is preaching the SOUND DOCTRINE and all the other Schisms then the enemy sits back and laughs for we the Church are in a self destruct mode ie. heart attack. We Must Love One Another...
A Voice Crying in the Wilderness...
Fred Turner
Dear Jay,
I am one of those who has left the church because I couldn't take any more of the abuse that was going on there. I and
many others were used and abused until we couldn't take any more. I personally got burnt out. I tried to go back there but
nothing had changed when I did. The pastor stopped preaching from the bible and preached from books he had read. People
talked during the worship. The doors were locked at a certain time and if you were late, you couldn't get in until after
worship. You were encouraged to become involved in ministries or leave the church. I went there for fourteen years of my
life. I gave and gave until I had nothing left to give and they still wanted more. I hung in there because I was praying
for God to change it there, and believed that God would change it. Some would say that I should have kept praying and
stayed, but after reading The Sons of Zadok, I realize that if the majority of the people are happy the way things are, God
will leave it alone and let them have it their way.
Carol
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Hi Carol,
Sounds like a pretty awful church all right. Many of us have been used and abused, that's actually one of the reasons that people in prophetic fellowships are attracted to online dialogue, we bear witness to each other and are sympathetic to those that have been rejected by so many churches and controlling pastors. I have to tell you that I also left the church and would not go back for some time. That did not stop me from eventually allowing myself the understanding of what the church was and to not be a part of it was to deny my existence in what comprises the body of Christ. I kept on looking and would visit churches and bounce from here to there and did what I could to love the people in the church. I guess I was looking for a perfect church but there are none. As soon as I would walk into a perfect empty church, it would be cease to be perfect. At least I know that I don't yet have it all together but God is not finished with me and He is not yet finished with the church and we have not yet done all we can to perfect her.
You need to do something for fellowship though, being a part of an online discussion is good. It takes something to know that you belong to the Christian body. As you know, we are not all like the church you left. Keep looking.
Thanks for sharing,
Jay
Greetings in the Name of The Lord! It's good to have you back!
I have a thought or two about the "Church Exodus" as I find myself part of it, only mine was a little more like being exiled than exodus. I was told that "if you don't trust the leadership and believe what the leadership says and if you can't do what the leadership tells you to do then there is the door don't let it hit you on the way out". Not only was it said to me personally but the entire congregation. Simply because I was under the impression we were to live according to Scripture and not man's opinion.
Anyway that is not the point. The point is this, I did not turn my back on "the church." I am in strong pursuit of one because I believe we must stand together as a body. Somewhere there has to be truth. But what the whole thing did for me was force me to seek God and what He is saying right now. Perhaps this whole Church Exodus thing is about truly seeking Him and taking what we find back to The Body. Perhaps this is God's way of bringing the entire body closer to Him. Sometimes He removes man so we can see Him more clearly. He said He would never leave us or forsake us but He also loves us enough to never let us stay in one place or condition for too long. It's a growth process and believe it or not there are Christians out there that don't really know where they stand, some don't even know how to stand. Are we to leave them in the church organization with little or no leading?
Christ said we are our brothers keeper and at some point in our Christian walk we must look out for our fellow man even when it means we put ourself on the back burner.
God bless and keep you always!
Shannon
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Hi Shannon,
The description of that leadership has a familiar ring to it. It is what many of them say. Actually, this is the best example of the type of false authority, prideful, authoritarian, this is my kingdom and you are my subjects, lord it over the flock type of reasoning that can be found. "Well if you do not like the way we teach, you are always free to leave." This kind of leadership is being a false Christ and the lowest common denominator is pride. It is not God's authority but man's authority that is exalted here. Just because they have faith and do it in the name of Jesus makes no difference, they worship God in vain and teach the doctrines of demons. It is easy to see this scenario as the first to fall under the judgment of the church and the first to be spit out.
I think that you nailed the subject well as to what should be our response in future discussions. Here is the problem, now what do we do about it.
Thanks,
Jay
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Hi Jay,
PRAY! PRAY! PRAY!
My husband and I are attended a very small church that once carried a powerful anointing. Terry attended it then. I truly believe that God has sent us back there to impart SOMETHING. What and how I'm not sure, all we really know is that it is a church walking in defeat and that it not what God wants it to be. The Pastor has had several strokes over the past few years and guess what? The Body of Christ abandoned him. Christians are SOOOOO weird! God hasn't given me exact directions all He told me to do was attend church there because He would deliver a message to the congregation through us. So I'm praying and waiting for direction. I have been having this conversation with Him that goes something like this "God you do realize that I am not a preacher or a teacher or a prophet for that matter don't you?" His response is "Yes but you are a worshiper and you love me." So I'm hanging for now with myself on the back burner. I do not believe we are supposed to keep our revealed knowledge from the Father to ourselves. I pray that what He has shown me will be able to help someone else.
I believe the answer to the problem begins with love. Not the kind that humans display but the kind that Jesus displayed. The kind that says Father forgive them for they know not what they do. The kind of love that willingly dies on a cross to save the likes of me and you. The kind of love that lifts the other person instead of lifting ourselves. The kind of love that stand in acceptance instead of judgement. Christ lives inside of each one of us, if we will allow Him to come forth in all His fullness and all of His glory we would all be able to see the church and the world differently. But in order for that to happen we MUST set aside our own pride issues of we have it and the church doesn't and vision the Body in complete unity. Isn't that part of what the Scripture means that Christ is coming back for a pure and spotless bride? How can it happen when the Body is so divided?
Talk to you soon!
Shannon Kuykendall
When you heed the call to battle, let your witness be as steel!
Dear Jay,
Warm greetings in Jesus' name on your return! Already you are being a great blessing! Your Babylon article is awesome and very comprehensive, and also deals with where we are now as "church"
It has become clear to most of us who have come out of Babylon, that this was really a sovereign move of God in our lives, not because He loves us more than those who remain, but because He chose us according to His own will, and we responded. And He is doing a stripping and developing work in us first before thrusting us back into the vineyard to snatch those others from the fire as it were.
How I wish we could all land up in a church like brother Clay-a church with no name, yet with structure, with no Nicolaitians yet with active five-fold, with no set classes yet discipling.
As a matter of fact, the more saints I meet who are "outside the four walls" but still part of the true church-His body, the more I realise that we are not schismatic prophets-- some of us want to go back and do what God has called us to do. Problem is the leadership of the IC does not want us back! They are afraid of losing power, influence, and money. They tell us if we can't submit totally (meaning blindly) to their leadership, then we must find another house. They interpret our desire to follow Jesus above His "mouthpiece" as bringing division in the house; that the only voice that must go forth is theirs, because they speak as the very oracles of God!
We do want unity, but not at any price! So many of us do what we can--we preach, we teach, we exhort, we encourage, we study, we write, we do the work of the ministry however we can, and wherever we can, and the Lord honors it and gives us fruit for our labour.
I think many of us would be a lot happier if we changed our concept of "church" from the four walls to the Body of Christ--wherever we go we take the church--then we wont miss so much the 4 walls and them that are therein so to speak- and get on with the business of expanding the kingdom.
They already call us traitors, heretics and false prophets, not flowing with their vison etc. but we are not moved by that anymore-we have been liberated and toughened up a bit in the process. We can take a licking and keep on ticking! Because we are on kingdom business, and we know we win!
As one T.V preacher is fond of saying-"It's a set up!' We have been set up by our Father for a great work. I pray we stay loving to our bretheren, militant toward our adversary, and worshipful toward our Father.
The kingdoms of this world-natural, spiritual etc. WILL become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ, no doubt about it.
Thanks again for opening our eyes to more truth. Makes me love Jesus even more! He is truth.
Bless you, Jay.
Ada.
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Hi Ada,
Always a pleasure. Of all the responses that I have received so far, and I have answered a number of them, this is the toughest. I know that you say that you are being blessed by the truth that I am sharing but something tells me that you don't really mean it. What I am hearing you say is that you refer to anyone who has come out of Babylon with you and yours are "we" and those that are not part of what God is doing in this sovereign move out of the Lord's vineyard are referred to as "they." And of course it sounds very much like you are referring to anyone within the "fours walls" of a church body are in Babylon. You also mention that "the leadership of the IC does not want us back!" Ada, that is a very generalizing, all encompassing statement. You have just lumped every church worker within four walls as if they are in Babylon and reject you. My wife and I will be attending a couple's seminar this weekend, Babylon. We are taking our son to church Sunday, all three of us are in Babylon. My pastor pastors a Pentecostal Church, so he is in Babylon also. I am truly sorry Ada but this is very alarming, and sad, not just for yourself having this attitude but I have seen it in others also. Of course they do not want you back but I thank God that I am welcomed in a loving church family that accepts the five-fold. I just painted a couple of those walls in the church today, a ceiling too, out of my love for my local church without any more reward than that. I hope that I have misunderstood you here but the message sounds clear. We are not a part of you.
Jay
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Dear Jay,
Thanks for your reply.
Very sorry I gave the impression that I am part of an exclusive group, and it's us against them so to speak.
And I am truly blessed by your posts, not only because the content is so good-I admire scholarship-but because they also provoke me to think! Jay, I love the church. I long to be back in a church where I can work-I have painted walls, scrubbed floors, hung curtains-the whole nine yards-and happily too.
I should have been more careful in my speech. I will be. I was really talking about my own former church where the pastors don't want anyone back who is a challenge or who asks any questions at all! They desire blind obedience. I love them dearly and pray for them regularly. But I cannot go back to that.
I am well aware that there are churches such as Clay's, and yours where honest questions are welcomed for discussion, and doctrinal clarity is not feared.
I don't believe that those who are not in my boat are in Babylon. God has long (about 20 years) delivered me from elitism. Please pray that I will find a church where the five fold is welcomed and not feared. As I said in another place, I do miss corporate worship-and the wonderful fellowship of the saints. God has a plan for the church which has not changed-but church has changed, our understanding of what church is has changed-at least it's expression has changed.
Love you, Jay.
Ada.
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Thanks Ada,
That helps a lot. Although I see now that you are referring to certain situations, the problem remains for many that have used specific circumstances like these to sour them from the whole system. I think that Clay's description of a house church was wonderful too, but I also see my situation as wonderful, especially when being out of the church "system" for over ten years. I have thought many times of having my own house church and already have friends doing it that can supply me with support but I was never led down that road. It is nice to have my wife and I going to church together. My wife never gave up on the church but I did, I figured that they were all under the same delusion but I have no false illusions of where Babylon is. That's the Elijah syndrome, I am all alone but God tells us that many have "not bent the knee to Baal."
A lot of us, especially in the prophetic, have been hurt terribly. So this is the direction that I think the discussion should be taking now is where do we go from here to heal the pain. Many have been hurt and betrayed just to be tried and if we fail, it is countered not with the joy of suffering for the sake of Jesus but with resentment and lashing out in the flesh with unforgiveness, condemnation, anger and denunciation toward the church itself. Babylon has much more to do with mammon worship and the blind allegiance to nationalistic and militaristic economics than it will ever have to do with church doctrine and resistance to the present moves of God within the church unless that is dealt with. There is indeed judgment coming to the church and having our lamps filled with spiritual oil will keep us from being overcome by a false church system but the delusions outside of church that keep us loving this world system must be removed because this is especially where the church is held captive and taking these delusions into the four walls of a house is not getting out of Babylon.
Thanks for clearing up my confusion.
Love you too,
Jay
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Dear Jay,
Appreciate your kind response.
What I would like to see is sufficient maturity in the body to not condemn one way because it's not "my way"--(I hope the majority of exiles have enough Word to not get drawn away into a cult)- and somehow find a way we can be one, as is Jesus' heart for us. Right now I am enjoying the diversity in the body as I get to experience many of the denominational churches who invite me to speak. I am amazed by the love shown to me by what we call the main-line or traditional churches, above and beyond that of the pentecostals (of which I am one) who think we have it all!
Yes , we have been hurt, and some of us badly, but we have the Healer, and I find the pain does go away after a while. Most of us are getting past that now, and are anxious to move on, cautiously perhaps, but moving ahead.
Which brings me back to-Where do we go from here?
In His love,
Brother Jay: I humbly ask a question, in your dialogue concerning Babylon you mention " Babylon rides upon 4 heads of the beast " is this a paraphrase of Rev. 17 vs. 3 of the woman sitting on a scarlet beast, having 7 heads and 10 horns? Or is there another mention of a beast with 4 heads, (Dan. 7:6 ?)
Love in Christ, R. E. Blevins
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Hi R.E.,
Good question, I suppose that it is a paraphrase. The seven headed beast you mention is referring to the seven mountains that the woman sits. Revelation 17:9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." It is significant that they are mountains and not hills like many cities sit on. And she also sits in the midst of waters, Revelation 17:15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." The only mountains that can be in the midst of waters that contain nations and multitudes are the seven continents themselves.
What I was referring to however was the four headed beast that you mention in Daniel the 7th chapter. To paraphrase this is to bring it into our current world situation. It is hard to understand Daniel or Revelation without studying them both together so I kind of mix things together. No doubt, I should be more specific to begin with. The four beasts were the eagle that was plucked from the lion, the lion standing upright like a man, the bear and the leopard. Although the identity of the leopard can be disputed, the other three are obvious. The leopard also had four heads and that adds up to seven as in Revelation, four on the leopard plus the other three. Mountains, nations, multitudes, beasts, whatever, the conclusion is that they are world powers that Babylon rides upon and not to be taken only in the religious sense as if Babylon is the Institutional Church.
Jay
Dear Group,
I am intrigued by our point of view, a point of view that I once shared. My only reservation is that some of the demonic-psychological things that I am experiencing can be traced to issues of menpleasing, man-dominion, pride, fear of rejection, deception, bitterness, unforgiveness, rage, and jealousy that I experienced while operating in the institutional edifice of the Baptist church. So for me personally returning to that edifice brings all sorts of temptations that I may not be able to contend with. God always gives us a way to escape when we are tempted, for some that escape is to leave the institutional edifice which is tempting them. I agree that for those who are strong enough and Holy Ghost filled enough and forgiving enough that perhaps they should remain in the ranks of institutional structure and transform from within, but for people who have been wounded, to weather the storm for the sake of unity may be a bit much.
Love, Woody Lucas
Jay, my take is this: Jesus told the woman at Jacob's well; we won't worship God in a physical place (mountain) BUT in spirit and in Truth.. Where we assemble is NOT the point, it's what we do with our Lord while assembled.. When we love Him with our whole heart, He manifests Himself to each of us for restoration, refreshing, healing, deliverance and all His benefits. When we build an Altar of Worship in our hearts He WILL send the rain...
In Matt. 13 He tells us to let the Wheat and tares grow together until the end of time then Jesus will send the holy angels to REMOVE the tares, not the righteous, from among the children of the Kingdom! I expect those who are departing are being removed by His angels! Think about it! Those who are leaving the church are "looking back" and are not of the Kingdom We must all keep our hands on the Gospel Plow..Let's be salt and let's be Light..as He's the Light of 'the world'...
Jesus does not have 2 churches. I want Him to fit me in..He said He would...build His Church with living stones therefore I will be put in place by Jesus, the Church Builder !! The gift He has given will make the place for us. We know Him by revelation He told Peter...sooo when we go here and we go there we are missing Him. He comes to us as the rain by the Spirit of the living God. I know by His Word I cannot build or leave His Church no matter where I go...He is not the Author of confusion therefore all this division and animosity is NOT GOD....Let's hold still and let Him reveal Himself to His own...Oh, how very much I love and worship Him and my sisters and brothers. May each one of us hear that 'still, small voice' tell us "This is the Way, walk in it."
Let's hold still, hold still..not run around with our carnal minds trying to make a place for Him ..
Following the Lamb wherever He goes,
Jay,
As I I writing this, I am watching my own church body (seemingly) being torn apart from within, by the devouring of one another (Gal. 5:15) and of "cold love" Mt 24:12)- (that's the word I keep hearing lately), and from without, by those who creep in in sheep's clothing to defile the body. Unfortunately, even as I and some other's see all of this, our pastor does not listen to us and "puts it on the back shelf to wait and see what happens". Sometimes I want to flee and sometimes I know I can't because I really believe that the Bride of Christ is to be made ready (Rev 19). As for right now, I have chosen to stand and fight. It's definitely not an easy fight. It is a fight with weapons of praise and worship. The Lord gave this word to me recently:
Stand and Worship
"Focus on Me. Your focus is on the enemy. Worship Me and he will flee. I will fight the battle for you. Your part is to worship and to stand your ground in worship. In the spirit world you have already passed the test. Pray for it to come into the natural realm.
From now on, you are to worship Me as your sole means of warfare. Praise and worship Me as thousands, even tens of thousands, shall fall at your side. You will not even notice because your focus will be on Me and not on your enemies that surround you. You feel the enemy all around you, but look beyond them and you will see My army surrounding them. Nothing can get between you and Me. Nothing. Stand and worship and know that the battle is mine and I always win."
{I saw myself closing a door. All I know is that it was the "last" door. A battle rages on the outside of the door I closed. I know I am safe on the inside where there is life, light, peace and joy. I don't want to open that door again. I ask Jesus to lock the door as I frantically look for the lock. He walks over to the door and with His right hand, He seals it off with His blood. There is no more door. It's gone.}
"Don't create any more doors like this one. This was a door where you entered into a battleground you need not go into. Your place is with Me. You have closed all the doors and you stand clothed in robes of white- the regal robe of Jesus' righteousness. The Blood that you constantly plead is not only covering you and yours, but it courses through your veins because you are royalty- a child of the King. I have a new level awaiting you- a higher level of worship warfare that will not wear you down or cause you to grow weary. You will actually grow stronger and stronger as you use the weapons of praise and trust Me alone. No more. No more hand to hand combat. No more struggling in your flesh over a battle that's victory is already yours for the taking.
I have not asked you to do anything that My grace has not provided the strength for you to do. Now, walk away completely and pick up your weapons of praise and worship! This is the most aggressive form of warfare you can ever engage in. The victory is sure and the battle is won. Climb the stairs to the level of worship I am waiting for you to abide in."
Here is a word that the Lord gave to me last year. I think it applies concerning the exodus:
5/27/01
"I am doing a deep cleansing among My people. NO flesh will glory. ALL pride is being taken down. Be encouraged and stand among the humble. Be encouraged that I am in control. I am moving you into a new realm of worship. Your prayers are ANSWERED. Look for Me. I am here. Power is being manifest in what looks to be weakness to many. Look for me in the areas that you may not think to look."
Then I looked, and I saw God plucking up and uprooting.
Many are going to leave where they are because of offenses. But the work the Lord is doing in each one, who is willing to let Him, will bear much fruit and bring Him much glory. Some are plucked out because of rebellion; some are being moved - there will be many reasons, don't try to figure them out. Just know that He will restore. Each one has a choice to make. Choose life or choose death. Choose a life of flesh and the world, or choose the Spirit. The ones who fall away will leave no void- don't fear. The remnant will stand in humility because they are firm in His Word and because they have been tried and tested by the fire of God.
To me, that sounds like a Bride being made ready.
I have clung to these as I have watched so may go and bad mouth those who don't. If and when the Lord tells me to go, I will. But, as Peter said to Jesus in John 6, "Where would I go? For You have the words of life". It's going on everywhere- the exodus; the looking for greener pastures. But, God is wherever we go and we have to learn to love one another in agape love even in the middle of the worst of circumstances. I know. I have been through almost 2 years of intense battles and I know that I am victorious only because I am His and He has already won! He is my Jehovah Nissi!
Anyhow, that's what I am seeing at this moment.
In His service,
Lori Thomas
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Thanks for that Lori,
The message to stand firm is a good one. The battle is truly the Lord's and He will be doing the sifting but what I have seen lately is many prophets that come into church swinging a sword and using it to cut up our brothers and sisters. No wonder that so many churches reject the prophetic, truth in love is thrown out and replaced with judgmental denunciations and spiteful words. There is truly judgment coming to the church and the dross will be separated in the fire but I think that our responsibility is just like you say here, to worship Him and lift Him up.
I like your attitude,
Jay
Hi Jay,
I've been silent, but very much pleased and satisfied with how God is moving in your life, and the direction of the "Latter Rain Movement." (smile) I haven't read the responses to this issue's focal point about the church yet, but I am chomping at the bit to do so. The one thought that keeps coming to my mind is that the church is the people - not institutions, theocracies, religions or any other man-created "thing". As this is such, I guess the question we are entertaining is: Have allowed these destroyers (Jezebel, Babylon, etc.) to enter us?
Much love to you, Jay, for your powerful hearing of and obedience to God's purpose and will for you in this life. You are in my prayers!
Bill Caraway
Dear Jay - It is with joy that I welcome your presence back as Latter Day Rain starts falling.....
I am not as learned as the other participants. I can respond with the way the Holy Spirit has been leading me.
.and "After this"... Rev 4:1
Hoping in Him, Sue
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Hi Sue,
This is really great, nothing I can add to that. The direction of the dialogue is for the most part taking on this direction but there is hurtfulness and bitterness that needs to be dealt with.
Keep listening to the Lord,
Jay
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Hey again, Jay!
I do understand the hurt and bitterness. God used the death of my son to show me that it was my responsibility/my decision to give my hurt to Him. ALL OF IT - OVER and OVER. And I had hurts and resentments that went waayyyy back. And people in my church that reminded me of the people who had hurt me years before just helped me get more offended! God used John 20:19-23 to make very clear to me that I had to choose to Receive His Peace, choose to see and BELIEVE in the Resurrected Christ, choose to Receive His Peace (I will need reminders!) , choose to accept His calling to reach out, choose to Receive His Holy Spirit - choose to know, after all the other choices, that only then will I be able, nay will He be able, to work forgiveness in me so that I am able to forgive others. Not so that their sins before God will be forgiven. That is their work with Him and His work.... Some versions mistranslate v23. The King James and NASB say - if you don't forgive the sins of others they are retained! Meaning I will retain them. Someone once said unforgiveness is like swallowing poison - and hoping that by my drinking it that the person that had offended me would die. I had done that!
The Message says "If you don't' forgive the sins of others, what are you going to do with them?" I had to humble myself to accept that whether someone deserved forgiveness or not had nothing to do with my choosing to harbor unforgiveness. I believe Jesus gave His disciples this direction at this point because He knew that unforgiveness would kill His church before it even got started.
Galations 6:1 so clearly tells me what I should do, as a spiritual person -address the wrongs of the brothers "to restore" them.....and be careful that you don't sin yourselves! Yet, what I was doing was in response to hurt and offense- pointing the fingers at others in anger and then sinning myself-The exact opposite of Paul's direction.
Was forgiving others easy? NO. Am I free from unforgiveness now? NO. The potential is always there - I must choose to trust in Him - There's Prov 3:5-6 AGAIN! I have to keep dying to my flesh. God has not punished me as I deserve - oh wretched (wo)man that I am. Why am I expecting Him to treat the others He loves as much as me any differently?
Gee, Jay - I am so glad you are back. I have tried and tried to express thoughts and beliefs on the other websites, and somehow the words just don't flow, or I feel this "holding back" and I don't submit anything. Thank you for opening this "window":)
1 Thes 5:23-24 Sue
Hi Jay,
Where are they going? Cults are gobbling up many weak "church members" -- saved? I don't know. -- but Mormons and others are thriving on the fact that so many have not been taught the simple and basic facts of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. -- the "kerugma." Plant that in the heart of the believer and they will not leave the church for their special "study groups," (some good) cults, or other interest -- worldly or "religious." Because of Him and His church -- it is His, you know, --I'm sticking with the church -- working and waiting for Him!!
See you in the clouds, at the "Church Exodus."
Shad
Brother Jay,
Being that there are two seeds, two churches, two women calling themselves the Bride of Christ, when there can only be One. We must hold to God written Word, and receive the revelation that He has give to us through His prophet-message for this hour. Truly there are challenges and problems. And God's sheep need a Holy Ghost filled pastors to lead them. But we must know that the denominational world is dead, Christ is on the out side. And we must stay away from the leaven, which is the traditions of men mixing with the Holy Word of God. If we truly prayer to the Father, He will send us a comforter in this hour of our need, will we hear Him when He calls?
God Bless you!
Brother. Mason
Hi Jay,
You suggested we need to identify the church in order to see its relationship to Babylon.
Is it possible to identify accurately the church that is not yet perfect? I suggest not:
The church is not complete - numbers upon numbers exist outside the Kingdom and have not heard the Gospel in any way that has made a practical difference to them;
Thus we look for the church not among the perfect but among the imperfect, and seek through Jesus to perfect our response and responsibility to her.
Jesus GAVE HIMSELF for the church. We do a lot of talking about dying in the Spiritual sense, dying to ourselves, but the talk is vain: we seek to elevate ourselves by causing others to be impressed by our death. Death is not pretty. Death is painful. Death is reality for those of us who are in Christ. Death is shameful.
Jesus was willing - are we willing to die for the church in reality, giving up our rights that we have fought so hard to maintain? Giving up our opinions that we feel so certain of? Giving up our belief in our own superiority in intellect, in calling, in purpose, even in scriptural interpretation?
How do we measure up to Jesus in our relationship to the church?
Considering His great love towards us, incomplete, imperfect, flawed, unholy, proud, hateful though we are - do we seriously think we are entitled to regard the church in any lesser manner?
Brethren if we love the church, the whole church, like Christ loves us, we are truly out of Babylon. We cannot forsake her however she fails us.
Love from Mary
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Hi Mary,
Exactly. The church is not perfect but it is our job to do what we can to make her the spotless Bride that Jesus is coming for. We ae not perfect as individuals, we are to do what we can to repent of our sinful ways. Jesus loves the church, so should we. Jesus will not abandon the church or leave her a widow, neither should we. Jesus takes us for better or worse.
Jay
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Hi again Jay, just following a thought pattern here, that we are crippled without each other since we are not perfect as individuals, like you say. I am sorry if I am stating the obvious but denominations and church groups try to build one good "man" with all parts working, within their walls. But it has to be doomed to fail, as does any alternative set-up, until we get the message that we actually need each other because we haven't got it together. Pride and self-sufficiency in the church is divisive and destructive. Are we perfecting the church or empire building....they could look very similar. Unity because of like-mindedness, or unity because of need. Power in the church as so called perfect "men" join together, or the function of the church fully restored as we come together recognizing our lack without each other? Jesus will not have a bride without humility.
Love from Mary
Jay,
Many of your points are well taken concerning abandoning the Church. I especially concur with you on the overall need for unity within the Body of Christ. Without unity amongst those "who are called to be joined" we are no more than the tongue (a body part) saying we do not want to be attached to the mouth - both of which would have limited use without the other. The overall effectiveness of the Body will not reach its destined heights until this joining and subsequent unity take place.
What we are now hearing loudly from within the Body (the Saints) is the groaning, the deep inner cry (moanings) unto God to unite us, to empower us, TO PROPERLY STUCTURE US and make us one for His purpose. I SENSE GOD SAYING: "The Army of God is now beginning to make strategy for VICTORY; the primary focus of this strategy involves unifying the Body and joining the parts that are suppose to be JOINED. Endeavor to PROPERLY DISCERN that you may join the Body properly. Understand that this is not a joining for the sake of joining, but rather a fitting of the parts that are CALLED to be joined."
We must allow the Holy Spirit to guide us to individuals, churches, cell groups, home churches, ministries, discussion groups, or whatever means God chooses that will help us into our destiny and purpose. The minute we make laws out of where God can be found will be the exact minute we potentially find ourselves in deception - (SPIRITUAL) INGNORANCE OFTEN COMES DISGUISED AS TRADITION. Many of us quickly recognize the demonic forms of lust, greed, drunkenness, and adultery; yet sit blithely ignorant of the box of traditions that we live in spiritually. Being open to the Holy Spirit and His leadings is the essence of spiritual life during this hour.
After many years of observation and prayer, I recently felt led to write an article entitled 'God's Structure Ignites God's Power.' I also wrote an article entitled 'Why a Powerless Church.' The quintessence of these two articles suggests strongly that improper structure will negate God's full power. It is in my heart strongly that the mass exodus now taking place in
the Church is a result of a hunger that God has placed within His people for the things of God, coupled with a sudden distaste (intolerance) for the things of men. Is this gravitation to a format more similar to the First Century Church and a functioning five-fold ministry a direct result of God bringing us into a God ordered structure through which His power can operate?
I offer this as food for thought.
In Him,
Clay Sikes
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Hi Clay,
Good food for thought, I know that you always seem to fill me up.
A lot of responses this time. You are a great help.
Jay
The Love of Christ for the Church.
Eph. 5:25.---' Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it.'
What is love? Love is one of the dethroned words in human speech; it goes about without its crown. And we have got to
restore something of its lost majesty and authority before we have even a passable canon for interpreting the love of our
Lord. We cannot make any headway in Scriptural exposition until we have redeemed our minds from all little and belittling
conceptions of love, and until we have re-enthroned the word in its essential and appointed sovereignty.
Let us, then, begin here. The primal and central element in all true love is HOLINESS. When sin is in the heart love
is frightfully stricken. Sin half-slays love and makes her blind. Holiness is the innermost secret of Fatherhood, and in
love's temple the holy of holies is holiness itself.
And the second element in all true love is BENEVOLENCE, the genius of sacrifice, the spirit of self-impartation. Love
can never be self-contained. The very life of love is found in movement away from self. Love leaves home to be at home.
Stop its exodus, you kill its genesis. 'God so loved . . . that he gave!' 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man
lay down his life for his friends.'
And the third great element in all true love is SYMPATHY, a fine sensitiveness of discernment, an exquisite
fellow-feeling, a sort of mystical divining-rod which discovers the waters moving in another man's life, a vicarious
strength which apprehends another's spiritual estate, and thrills to hidden joys and sorrows.
Now what is the figure in the text by which the Apostle to express the relationship of the Lord to His Church. It is
the figure of the husband and wife, and of that relationship in its tender and exquisite springtime, the communion of the
Bridegroom and bride. 'Christ also loved the church'---that is the declaration of the Bridegroom's affection for His
bride; 'and gave himself up for it'---that is the Bridegroom's dowry for His bride; 'having cleansed it by the washing of
water with the word'---that is the bride's preparation for her wonderful Husband; and this is the crowning day of festal
triumph---'that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but
that it should be holy and without blemish.' Let us note how this Love-ministry of the Bridegroom ministers to His bride.
He Himself will prepare His bride for the festal day. He will provide clean, white raiment, in place of her own unclean
and bedraggled attire. And how will He do it? 'By the washing of water with the word.' In what other way can mental
habits of a life be changed? If you want to purify a man's mind, to give him clean mental attire, you can do it only by
the washing ministry of new ideas. Give any man a new set and circle of ideas, sweet thought of Jesus, pouring into a
mind, washes it like the passing of the tide over the littered sands of the seashore. The bride is to be cleansed by the
gracious conveyance of the Bridegroom's thought, 'by the washing of water with the word.' She is to receive 'the mind of
Christ.' When we have gained a new mental heaven we shall have a new earth; all things will become new; for we are to be
transformed by the renewing of the mind.
But the Bridegroom does more than cleanse His bride; He cleanses that He may sanctify. And the whole purpose of
sanctification is just that the cleansing may be carried forward to richer and more advanced attainment. Sanctifying is
cleansing with a plus; it is purity beautified. The bride is to be not only pure but lovely; not only righteous but
winsome. The King's daughter is to be 'all glorious within,' her clothing also of fine gold. What is the Bridegroom
prepared to do for her in the way of making her lovely? 'That he might present the church to himself a glorious church.'
Whatever else the phrase may mean, it surely denotes that about the Church there shall be nothing of cheap showy finery,
nothing flimsy, nothing thin; but a weighty splendor like the glory of the noonday sun. That is the love-purpose of the
Bridegroom concerning His bride, the Church. It is His will that His Church be weightily impressive, radiantly conspicuous
with a strong and consistent glory; that amid all the false lights, and cheap fireworks, and dim uncertain lamps of the
world she may be like a blazing planet, of incomparable and constant splendor.
When I read over again this glowing picture of Paul the Apostle. I say the words over to myself, 'sanctified,'
'cleansed,' 'glorious,' 'without spot or wrinkle,' 'holy and without blemish,' and it dawns on me that this is what Christ
was, and I come to the conclusion, from which I must never depart, that He loved the Church and gave Himself up for it,
that He might make it like Himself; that He loved me and gave Himself for me that He might make me like Himself, and I believe that that miracle of transformation may take place in me, and in you, and in all men, and that if it is not taking place, then as far as I am concerned He has died in vain. How it takes place I cannot tell, save that I know if I live with a powerful personality, and do not resist his influence, I shall grow like Him.
In Christ,
Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together in HIS NAME (all that He is [Amplified]), He is there with them to conduct Kingdom business.
There is much in the institutions that usurps the work of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. In spite of that, whenever and wherever only 2 meet in His name in agreement (harmony), some of the work of God is accomplished in that setting.
Jesse Kloss
Jay,
I agree with you one hundred percent I believe that the organized Church is missing God. More of the saints are concerned with going to conferences and getting blessed. Witnessing hardly ever takes places in most churches and if it does the converts don't really know whats going on. A lot of the teachings are not scriptually based. I have tried with all of my
heart to understand some of the pentecostal teachings and I don't. The people are taught not to ask questions when I know for a fact they don't understand. There is a large degree of pride and respect to person because they are taught to touch not God's anointing. I agree it is modern day Babylon.
July 1, 2002
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." Luke 4:18.
The Forerunner Ministry
paul@theforerunner.net
The real question now, as you put it, is Where do we go from here? I feel the answer will not be the same for all of the "exiles". Some of us will, like yourself,get into a good church where we will be affirmed if we need that, and we can work the works of Him. Others of us will either find a house church or start one. Others of us may still have some wanderings to do until the work He began in us is further along.
Ada.
Venida B. O'Nan
clay@coastalnow.net
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