Living Waters

December 17, 2002

The fruit of the spirit is of course, our lives of love manifested, the proof that we drink from the wellspring of living waters.

I see the intruder in your garden. This is not only in your garden, we are brothers and sisters; we are all part of the garden as unto the Lord. Our source of life is drawn from the well of living waters and attached to a spiritual foundation from above. There is an outside source of water at the edge of the garden connected to an earthly source. Jezebel again, the manipulation of God's word to entice prophets to eat of her bounty, drink from the polluted well and with the pretense of inspiration, sow evil seed. Carol was right, they are wolves with smooth words and flattery and stupid sheep follow them. We need to be careful. They use language cloaked in our own faith and use our love for others to draw us to the polluted water. It is not Jesus yet they come in His name. It is delusion and vain deceit veiled in claims of a divine source yet unmasked as soon as we see through the pride and selfishness. People need to know, the alarm must be sounded, and the watchmen must turn on the searchlights.

There is a dearth of God's word today. A silence has gone forth from heaven to make us trust in Him by faith, not by sight. With that dearth is a thirst for the living water through the word and power of God. A separation has begun in God's people that reveals the source of living waters in those led by His spirit. We have seen these intruders first hand with their confusion, stupid bickering and special kingdom agendas; Jesus is outside Babylon, outside the matrix, outside the camp. Jesus told us that many false prophets would appear but not to follow after them.

Luke 17:23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

The kingdom of God is within you. Jesus must be sought from within and if we were to bring Jesus in all of our circumstances, He can be in all of those places as a shining light. What you see in your vision is the enticement to bring more Christians seeking living water to the wrong places. They thirst for the living water but once found, they put their trust in others with polluted water and nice looking fruit to fill them up instead. The fruit decays, their vessels become broken and leak, their spiritual eyes grow dim and they are easily offended. For us to unselfishly love the intruders is not enough; we must protect the garden from polluted seed.

The good seed has always been rooted in holiness fed from the streams of living water. This fruit of love is about to show forth in an abundant harvest and a feast where a kingdom of righteousness shall be established. Jesus will be exalted there, not the bullying pretenses and harassments of wicked seed. You did the right thing in wanting to expel an intruder Mary, it represents bad fruit spreading to the rest and feeding upon the weak. The damage continues and healing is necessary but better times ahead for the good seed, these hardy little ones will recognize the Master of the garden and rise up to meet Him.


My vision this morning was a local bully (Jezebel?) in my garden drawing water from an alternative water source (Not mine: I have a tap fixed to the wall) I think I was in the Spirit because I seemed to be the garden, not a person in it. My desire was to expel the intruder. He was furtive over the source of his knowledge (water) Later an understanding, not a vision, to do with fruit. I had attempted to cut out the bad part of the fruit, but it accelerated the decomposition of the flesh, which I was grieving about. Then I understood that I had been concerned about preserving the fruit (love, joy, peace, etc) but that the fruit flesh, that attractive succulent sweetly scented stuff was only there for the purpose of setting and dispersing the good seed. Hard little seeds but good ones. The phrase in my mind was "the good seed has been set". There is also evil fruit that is highly attractive, and presumably it contains evil seed. I see the outward show of love and kindness etc., but it conceals evil seed. I mustn't be hoodwinked by that again. If my personal needs and desires are slain I am in with a chance.

Grateful of your comments.
Love, Mary

Having been disturbed by the House Church vs the Institutional Church vs denominations vs non-denominations and etc, I really got some clarification here in T A Sparks writing re: The Body of Christ. I find confusion among all believers about 'The Church' and sometimes wonder if most misunderstand "The Church Jesus is building".? There are those among us who vilify other parts of THE CHURCH and are guilty of causing division which is an abomination to God...All of us need to re-arrange our thinking as to who are our fellow-believers ..The words that come out of our mouths are POWERFUL bringing life or death...SO like so many are saying today "Let go and let God"... Can we each just be in the place where the Lord has placd us and let all others alone? Hallelujah! I want to be a unifying force in His Body, don't you?

Learning as I go,


Hi Venida,

This seems to be the topic of the hour on the forum discussion so you are certainly listening to the Lord on the issue. I am learning as I go also but I agree that it is causing terrific division and an abomination to God. As we progress in our understanding of this, I pray that we can be united but right now there is like you say, words bringing life or death - that is dangerous. Will keep you posted, probably on the next edition.



Hi Venida,

Back to this issue, we are only now coming out if it on the yahoo lightship forum. A well meaning person was co-authoring a book that taught a great message of taking the church out into the world and describes her sins to a T. But it was given in the context that the church building and all the institutions and all who worship inside church walls were part of Babylon and just like elvis left the building, God is no longer there and to "know what the Spirit is doing in the world today, you have to go outside the camp." It was hard for some to see through the exclusiveness to understand parts of that in regards to the church. I hope that we get into a better discussion soon but really think that the group learned from it. I hope the one that left the group as if we were rejecting him learned too but inflexibility is a hard thing to give up.

I have always been criticized for being too ecumenical. Although there is a definite separation and I believe that the Exodus is part of a judgment, we shouldn't generalize and reject all churches but rather do what we can to perfect them, inside and outside "the camp" and out into the hiways and byways spreading the gospel. All of the little groups and fellowships are all part of a collective spirit of Jesus being readied that will change the world once we understand that we have to do it together. I have heard that an ecumaniac is one that loves another's church more than his own. I would rather love another's church as my own but you get the idea.

I read that piece by T. Austin Sparks. It is real good and a perfect example of the kind of community and cooperation that the church should have. He writes of "His Church," universal, relative, interdependent; the Church is one."

The problem is that we have not been acting like it. I am learning as I go too but we all need to learn and to teach. We need to start acting like one but we need to be like Jesus to do it. Pride gets in the way but we can change. The comforting fact is that I believe that we will be pressing through and hope that you and I are among that number.


jay, your letter made me think of my husband. Somebody at the church had said something to my husband, probably not meaning anything by it, but my husband got offended by it and wouldn't go to church for months. I've been praying for him and last night he came to church and asked the church to forgive him because he blamed the whole church. His soul was healed last night when he let it go. Before that it kept festering. We need to always pray for the saints everywhere. But you also see how we, 1 person represents the whole body we must guard our mouths, or the whole church can suffer.

be blessed in christ



Hi Linda,

Your message sounds in my heart like a victory song. Many in the church have been hurt but it is really the victorious overcomers that can forgive and ask for forgiveness. The resentment and alienation that is felt in the churches is something that I think is pretty common today and is part of the testing that we must go through in this hour. Those that are bringing the accusations and railings will stumble but thanks be to the grace of God in that He can bring others to the love and forgiveness that will identify us in the end and even now.

Thanks for sharing that, it will help bring this issue closer to completion.


Hi all!

This hit me in the gut Jay

"Babylon is a state of mind, not a place, it is in the seat of our consciousness, not a seat in the church. It has to do with the mammon that you speak of much more than church membership. It has to do with worldly nationalism and politics, imperialism and world trade, economics and exploitation as well as in the american manifest destiny doctrines as God ordained and the worship of that system. And it has to do with the pride of thinking that God has given us ultimate truth and we cannot be deceived ourselves and everyone has to think our way as God's way."

So if Babylon as you say is a state of mind and NOT a place, we had better make sure we are out of it. Because if we are still in it, it would not be possible to identify it intellectually with accuracy. Therefore our discussion or intellectual exercise could not resolve the problem to any practical advantage.

It has to be Holiness and purity. Poverty and humility. Walking in the Spirit. Preferring each other over ourselves.Scrapping our own opinions and agendas for the greater good. Laying down our lives for the brethren.

Love of course!

Then I guess Babylon must come fully into view.

Love from Mary


Hi Mary and everyone.

I took four days from my e-mail just to see where this will be going. It is my prayer that the Spirit of God will lead and not man's spirit so I took myself out of the equation. It will be interesting to see how much of man's spirit and pride is trying to take control and how much the spirit of love and humility does.

The Spirit of the Lord has not left any church building. Jesus is still where He always has been whenever we gather ourselves together in His name. He still loves us, He has not left us anymore than He has left the Jews, He will not abandon us or forsake us no matter where we are, in or out of church. It is obvious to me that it is the church that has moved from it's divinely ordained direction, Jesus still has His arms stretched out waiting for us to return to Him. The body of Christ is united by His Spirit, not church structure.

Anyway, looking forward to see what you have been saying the last several days. Get back to you as I answer all this e-mail that I let pile up.


Blessings again my Brother,

Once again the Holy Spirit has revealed an awesome revelation in your words, the casting down of the elders crowns, I never understood it until now, I always perceived it as an a act of giving, or blessing, but I see know that it is an act of total submission, a surrender, humbling before Him relinquishing all to Him, the awesomeness I feel now, this is the place where God both works and blesses, the place of here am I Lord, have your way with me! I am so undone, yet blessed at the same time. All that is in my heart is Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lamb of God! Worthy to receive all honor, power and praise!!! Glory to the everlasting One. My one constant and faithful God, Amen! Steadfast and true, Glory to You alone, my shield, my buckler, my strength, Lover of my soul, Sweet Jesus, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain, Who was, an Is, and Is to come! Halleluiah! Devine Revelation, praise God! My friend, God is looking for a bride without spot, or blemish, when He sees her, He will come! I pray that the parable of the ten virgins is not a prophetic word, that half of us will be left behind a closed door, weeping. I write this to say, Jesus is a matter of fact, true! Until we come to the place of being a matter of fact, true, until we are truly walking in the fruits of the spirit in our own personal lives we will be out of place, we must humbly bow and throw our crowns down before the Lord and surrender all, to relinquish all, to say no to our carnal self, and say a eternal yes to His way, we must be a matter of fact, True! Amen! We must!

Rev: Stephen Jarchow

Beloved, I would that you should grow strong, upright, being fruitful in every way, to be at peace, loving one another, preferring one another, This cup you drink from is ever flowing, a never ending source of abundant life, come drink and be filled, come and embrace that which loves you, come be refreshed, renewed. says the spirit of the Lord!

Good Morning, Jay. I thank God for the Latter-Rain website and the Newsletter. I pray that this ministry will reap 100 fold what it has sown on good ground. I just read the Latter Rain List Newsletter "Victory in Jesus" and "Daniel's Heart", and I believe (from my own testimony) that a heart such as Daniel's entails the heart of Jesus himself. It is self "less", of course. Now, "we" should also learn how to discern the "body" of Christ and know that the throne of grace and mercy is available for us to intercede. But, again, it takes a self "less" person. I had to "learn" how to become that selfless person, Jay. The more I look at Christ and who he is -- "I" became less. I had to learn how "judge" my actions, thoughts, deeds, and even my "walk" with Him according to His Word. However, what comes to my heart is John 15, I can do nothing without Him. Once, I began focusing on Him more, the more my heart and attitude began to change for others. I am becoming more selfless. I am learning how to stand

Charlene Langon

Dear Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,

I have watched from the back of the room here for a long time. But I decided today I would write and ask a question.

This is the question.

Do you feel that there is, way to many emotions in the church today as it stands?

I feel that the church has to be in a faith walk and not a walk of goose bumps. The Word of God teaches us to keep our emotions under control. There is so many things going on in the church today, that I have seen, that is nothing more than the flesh and there is no Spirit of God in it.

Thank you and looking forward to the letters.

Tom Brooks


Hi Tom,

We have been discussing this very thing on the Yahoo forum that we have. What we really have found is that emotions are very important since, after all, love is an emotion. But that fact must precede feeling. The Lord has told us that His spirit will bear witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God. That is feeling. We are not to trust so much in them as we are to trust in Jesus but if His power is there, He can manifest Himself to us and our senses. Some follow after these signs and wonders but the Bible tells us that is wrong. But what it does say is that signs and wonders will follow them that believe. There is a distinction there I hope that you see. Let me know.

Yours in Jesus,

Jay Atkinson

Hi Jay,

The biggest issue in the church today that I see is the spirit of control. Issuing out of that is: jealousy, guarding my turf, the traditional means of financing, through keeping my giving members exclusively mine, so I can maintain the usual traditional church status quo. Denominational pride and position also fall under this spirit of control and the competitive spirit is also strong. A works mentality, visibility, etc follow along. I considered the question, could a competitive spirit be a good thing if it flowed from the right heart agenda and motives? I do not feel so. What do you think?


Thanks for your diligence and creating a wonderful web site where we can find a variety of helps, prophetic words, teachings etc.

Alice Weeks
Ministry of Living Water
John 4


Hi Alice,

That spirit of control and manipulation has been brought out a lot lately and has been identified as the spirit of Jezebel. You are absolutely right, if not the biggest issue at least one of them. We have been discussing these same things on the lightship forum... Come on by if you like.


1 Pet. 2:9.---' Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.'

Looking at these four things, we see that they represent four different aspects of the Christian. A chosen generation---that tells about a new life. A royal priesthood---that tells about a new service. An holy nation---that tells about a new relationship to the world. A peculiar people---that tells about a new relationship to God.

I would like to concentrate on 'an holy nation'. The word used here for nation means a great body of people bound together into a vast community by all the manifold ties and vital connections by which a great society can be welded together. Many races, descended from different ancestors, may form one nation. The term was used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which became the Bible of the Jews of the Dispersion, and was also the Bible of the early Church, to denote the heathen world, with its countless numbers, over against the people of Israel. They formed the nations---the Gentile world---one vast whole encircling with its multitudinous lives and multiform powers the small society of Israel. Now, this very comprehensive term is applied to the Christian Church. It is a nation. This implies that the Church of Christ possesses such a comprehensiveness of life and character as to be able to form a society great and expansive enough to contain and unite all the nations of the world. Within the Church, families, tribes, nations, and empires are to find their true life and true destiny. Consequently the Christian Church is to solve all the problems of man---individual, social, national, international, world-wide.

The ideal of the modern world is brotherhood---the federation of the world into the unity of righteousness, love, and peace. But the unifying of the human race is to be realized in and through the growth and expansion of this spiritual community. Here is the nucleus of a federated humanity. The key to the solution of the problem is found in the unique character of this nation. It is holy. Holiness denotes that ethical perfection or moral sublimity in God in the presence of which the human spirit prostrates itself in awe, reverence, and worship. Then we come to know that God can communicate a measure of His holiness to man. This holiness is shown and embodied in the moral spendor of the God-inspired soul. As this holiness enters into and permeates the life of society and nations, there will be created out of the chaos of human selfishness, discord, and struggles a world order, beauty, and harmony. The kingdoms of the world are to become the Kingdom of God and His Christ. The goal of the world's progress is a theocratic commonwealth on whose manifold life, interests, and ideals will be written, 'Holiness unto the Lord.' The Church of Christ is to grow and expand into the world-unifying, world-comprehending and world-glorifying society in which humanity will realize its true ideals and know the plentitude of life.

There have been many confessions recently from quite unexpected quarters, confessions wrung from thinking men who know this country and its problems in the world, that the body of the nation needs not only a brain, but a conscience and a soul, that for the upbuilding of the new generation we need creative faith, that for guidance over new ground and among infinite perplexities we need a moral guide, that to establish anything approaching a brotherhood among men we need the sense, the inspiring sense and the commanding authority of a Fatherhood; that for bridging the chasms that separate the nations with their differences in MORALE and culture and stages of civilization, to say nothing of their national ambitions, we need an institution that is spiritual, universal and super-national, disinterested as to material things and devoted to the wide ideals of humanity. What is all this really but the cry for a Church, not a mere collection of scattered groups, but an organized community, a body, a new race, a holy nation, as Peter says, a phalanx knit together by the Spirit of God and moving out with mind and heart in active service for the things of God?

In Christ, timothy. maranatha

I woke up this morning thinking of one test to see the extent to which Babylon is in our thinking in how far our efforts to see her accurately are determined by our wish to escape repercussions, or how much to please God and rescue our brethren. We know how sinful we can be. If the basis of our desire is selfish or in any way capitalistic (I hope I have the right word here) then we are well and truly in Babylon still. Therefore if still there in our thinking we aren't out, and can't see her for what she is. It is like the "seek ye first the kingdom of God" principal, that all things are added unto us if we get our eyes on God. That selfish seeking will bring only self satisfaction, and God's wrath. But seeking God and His righteousness will bring us everything we need. Same thing with the rich man who needs to sell all he has. That we can only have what we seek and truly need by first letting go of what we have....even if it is a fondly held opinion. So that is why I put forward the holiness and love paragraph as God's solution to the confusion.

Love and blessings!


Dear Mary,

I can't tell you how true your words are to me. You are so right. Seeing 'Babylon' within ourselves is a rude awakening, but one which sets us on His right path through repentance. I am always amazed at the selfishness I see within myself, and how little I really want to put others before my 'self'. I am learning to despise these wrong things in myself and really desire to have 'me' changed by His Spirit. There is a cry coming from within the Body today that is calling out for Him to change us...and He is answering that cry and delivering us from ourselves and all the baggage that goes with us. This delivering process is not always pleasing to our flesh, but is necessary if He is to answer our prayer to be changed. I thank God every day that His Mercy is greater than His judgements. Thank you for these words which are so encouraging and full of Truth.

Blessings and love, Lorraine

Dear Marilyn,

I love it how He leads us along the same path, each one of us in our own little corner of the world, and joins us together through what He is speaking to us. The Spirit connects us to each other through the Truth He is revealing to each one of us individually in our personal relationship with Him. We all use different ways of expressing what He is saying, and all have different experiences of Him to share, but His Spirit within us bears witness to His Spirit in each other. Maybe I am just silly, but that really amazes me...

Blessings to you and your family, Lorraine

Rom. 14:17.---' The kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.'

Paul declares that the Kingdom of God is not 'eating and drinking'; it is not to be determined by one or two external acts, in which we participate or from which we abstain. The throne of the Kingdom is erected not in the land of the doing, but in the land of the being; it is not primarily a matter of clean hands but of clean hearts. Thus we are driven backwards and inwards, from considerations about eating and drinking, to find elsewhere the realm of the Kingdom of God. Where, then, does it set up its throne in human life?

In every life there is a holy of holies. It is an intensely secret place. The dearest friend we have on earth cannot enter it. It is our temple of secrets, of things which cannot be told. It is a place where only two can meet---our spirit and the Spirit of God. It is that inner sanctuary where God and we come face to face. That secret place is the abode of the Kingdom of God. We have to know that secret place, that innermost heart, to know finally whether or not men and women belong to the Kingdom of God. We do not eat meat offered to idols! But what are we in our innermost self, where no eye but God's can see us? It is in that utmost privacy of our life that we must look to learn whether we are or are not citizens of the Kingdom of God.

What Paul tells us is that, when the Kingdom of God is really in the life, there will be three things in that most secret place. There will be 'righteousness,' 'peace,' and 'joy.'

Righteousness.---According to the Apostle, the first thing which characterizes the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the human life is that we become righteous, right with God in our innermost self. If we want the structure of this Kingdom to be built up in our life, we must begin at the base, at the foundation; and the fundamental requisite is that in the very depths of our being we must become right with God. This is the fundamental requirement; not that we should get peace or possess joy. Our worship, our churches, our Christian institutions have for their primary purpose the putting of man into a right relation to God: to bring our lives in touch with God, that His life may flow like healing waters into ours.

Suppose I go to the doctor with my arm out of joint, and say to him, "Doctor, I cannot get any rest or peace. I pass through painful days and sleepless nights. I want you to give me a sleeping pill that I may enjoy a little rest." I think the doctor would smile and say, "My dear sir, it is not a sleeping pill you need to give you a few hours of unnatural peace. You must get your arm into its socket; set that right, and then Nature will give you her own sleep and her own peace."

No man can sound the depths of his own natural peace, or rise to the heights of his own natural bliss, who is not conscious of the presence and the companionship of God. This consciousness is natural to the soul whose will is in harmony with the will of God, but it is impossible to the soul whose will is not converted to the Divine will.

The Kingdom of God within us is rightness with God, and from that rightness with God comes right dealing with our fellow-men. Not carping criticism, not fault-finding and intolerance, but righteousness and just dealing, should be the characteristic of the citizens of the Kingdom.

Peace.---Having got right with God, our wills at one with His, we shall then discover the second characteristic of the Kingdom---the possession of an abiding peace. The Kingdom of God is peace in the Holy Spirit, peace in that secret place where only God and we meet. That place is for many of us a place of great unrest. The last place into which many of us would go for peace would be into the secret heart where we meet alone with God. It is the place above all others where there rages a storm. But when we are united with God, joined to Him in right relationship, there comes to us the gift of His peace. 'My peace I give unto you'; receiving My life you shall receive My peace, the same serenity in danger, the same equanimity in troublous surroundings, the same freedom from anxious care, 'My peace!' If we have ever spoken to any one who has passed out of the storm and turbulence into the possession of Christ's peace, they will tell us how He takes the threat out of yesterday, the despondency out of today, and the fear out of tomorrow.

Joy.---'The Kingdom of God is joy.' Is righteousness the pole-star of our lives? Is peace the music of our hearts? If so, then to us, as to the shepherds of old, the message of the Epiphany is addressed, 'Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy.' If so, then on us, as true and faithful citizens, loyal to the laws and customs of the Kingdom, our Sovereign will confer His crowning privilege, 'joy in the Holy Spirit.' Not joy as men count joy; no earthly passion and no transitory excitement; but the abiding inward satisfaction of a conscious harmony with the will of God.

Jesus names to us a striking peculiarity about the joy of the righteous: 'Your joy no man taketh from you.' No thief of accident or circumstance can steal it! If we find the joy of our life merely in entertainment or amusement there is many a thief that can take it away from us. Poverty may dry up our resources in a day. Sickness may throw us upon ourselves, and make a wide gulf between us and our joys. We are called to a joy compared with which all other joys are very tasteless and tame, the joy of being a friend of Christ, joy in the Holy Spirit.

When Christ came into my life, He drew up all the blinds, opened all the doors, and His joy came blowing in from everywhere.

In Christ, timothy.

I want all of you to know that I am still here!! I will not go away, for I believe in all of us. I don't enter in to all the discussions, but I read them on "group mail". And I thoroughly agree on Jay's posting about Babylon. Yes. Jesus hasn't left. Maybe the people have left, but we can find Him when we figure just where He was the last time we Heard or felt HIs presence.

Jesus is right here on this lightship community. I know some have left, but where to? Nope. I'm sticking around, enjoying the fellowship. I don't post as much as you-all, because I am writing for another post, plus I am having "family" problems, and find myself praying more, which is good. And studying more...and "chewing and swallowing" more. Know what I mean? But you all keep 'em coming. I am soaking it all up, and the tiny bit I may not agree with I use for "roughage". I am not one to get the least bit miffed for something I can't see at the moment. I just set it on the back burner and go on. Pray for dysfunctional grand kids, need prayers, and one of my daughters is pretty ill. And a gt. grandchild, Joni, age 5, has scarlet fever. But none of these things will shake me!! Praise the Lord. You all have a blessed Thanksgiving. ( I told one lady that, and she let me know that Thanksgiving was heathen!!!) Well, I do not agree, so I intend to eat and eat....with thanks in my heart. God bless.


Hi everyone, I'm still here too, just don't often have time to write.

Thank you so much Mary for your words of encouragement.

So glad to hear from you again Krissy.

Thank you Micheal for sharing your book - I was really blessed by it. I am so sorry that you feel you should leave. I pray you would stay and share with us what God is speaking to your heart.

I will write more later.

Love in Christ Gail

Hi everyone,

I'm amazed how many things in the discussions here are along the same lines as what I have been meditating on. As Lorraine said we are being led along the same path. I have been meditating on the 13th chapter of Jeremiah where God told him to buy a linen girdle and to wear it without putting it in water. He is then instructed to take it and hide it in a hole of the rock in Euphrates. After many days he is told to dig it up again and he says, "behold the girdle was marred it was profitable for nothing." The girdle was an undergarment worn against the skin. God then says that the people would not hear his voice but followed the imagination of their own heart. Imagination - they followed that which was not real. God is reality. Love is reality. God wanted his people to be bound to Him as closely as a girdle but they would not listen to His voice. So they became useless to God because they separated themselves from Him. God wants an intimate relationship with us - he wants us to be close to Him and to listen to His voice - this is reality.

The systems of this world are like broken cisterns - they have no water, no life, they give no satisfaction - they are not real. Jesus said "The spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing, the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life."

It all comes down to obeying the commandment of Jesus to love one another AS HE HAS LOVED US.

"Father as we speak, may the words be thine, We a mouth-piece weak, uttering things divine."

Love in Christ

Hi everyone,

Thanks Mary, of course what you are saying is true. I prayed a lot for this fellowship the last week and especially that this kind of division would not infect these loved ones on the group. I know that many bought into it. I am not an enemy but when I am treated like one, of course I take it personally. Since I am now considered part of Babylon by some and if people leave because of it, it hurts but I know within my heart that it is not true and I must hold firm that it is dangerous to bring others down a road of condemnation, prejudice and exclusivism. Learning how to love people in the church has been progressive for me and I am not about to regress.

It has been said many times here that none of us have a corner on the truth. What I saw happening was a spirit of pride thought that if a view was not agreed with, that it was against the spirit of truth. That is out of our own understanding, not God's, it is the attitude of false Christs, not the spirit of prophecy which must bear witness. That's how cults get started. The focus here should be on coming together, not separating because of disagreement or because of a divisive issue. Whenever I hear the sound of pride speaking in people that tries to say that they are the spiritual ones and if you don't agree then it is opposing God, I see a red flag come up with the spirit of anti-christ.

It is easy to divide and separate over issues. God is looking for ones that can love each other in spite of them.


Dear Mary

I am finding that we all really 'agree' more than we realize. It is simply that we often misunderstand the meaning of what each other is saying. But, I am thinking that the more we each allow Him to renew our hearts and minds to His, the more we will learn to hear, see, and be led by His Spirit, instead of our own thinking, and the less misunderstandings will occur. I hope that made sense. I know one thing for sure, that the Lord is bringing us all along the same path, and that our destination in Him is the same...a united Body with One Head! I know what you mean about not being able to be hurt like you once were able to be hurt by others or situations. It is like everything is changing within you, and the things that used to bother you, set you on edge, get you agitated, make you angry, hurt your feelings, or whatever...simply no longer bother you at all. I know it is difficult to explain because the change is so inward, and so much the work of God and not of ourselves. A person cannot imitate this change you are speaking of because this change is brought about deep within our hearts and minds by the Spirit of God. It is like all of a sudden one day you realize that you don't feel the same way at all about many things. It certainly is freeing, and there is nothing that can compare to this work of His Spirit within us.

The more He changes me, the more I want to be changed by Him. All the money in the world couldn't buy us this freedom from our 'self' that only He can bring. Like you, I am finding that I am only content and at peace when I am doing what He wants me to be doing, and going where He wants me to go. Everything else is dung (can I say that?). I believe that each one us should only do what He is leading us to do in every situation. Only in that way, will we have the peace and joy in our hearts that is a result of being in the Will of God. No other person can tell us what God wants us to do. He may and does speak to us through others, but we mustn't be led by others simply for the sake of following. He is the only One we are to follow. He will make it clear to us which way to walk at all times. In this way, we are putting our trust in Him, and not in ourselves or in other flesh and blood. I agree that He has turned up the heat on us. Flesh is being revealed and burned up as fast as it appears within us. There seems to be an acceleration of His dealings with us. Now that I am liking the results of His dealings within can say, "bring it on Lord, do what needs to be done within me"!

The more that is burned up within our hearts that needs to go, and the more our minds are rid of its junk, the more simpler our walk with Him is becoming. We stop trying to appear 'spiritual', and begin to act like normal people. We begin to see those around us who need His touch and His Love. We begin to reach out and touch these ones who we previously never even noticed, because of our self-centeredness. Yes Mary, I know exactly what you mean. And what a Joy it is to Love Him, and begin to love others as we love ourselves. It is always a blessing to talk with you, and your letter below has encouraged me so much. It is so great to know that I have other believers that I can talk freely with online if I need to unload. Sometimes, His dealings make me whine if you hear a strange sound you'll know what it is. Like you, I love to be able to share openly and honestly about the way things really are.

Blessings to you and your family, Lorraine

1 Pet. 2:9.---' A holy nation.'

The life of holiness is both an essentially separate and essentially social life. Inwardly it is a life of separateness; outwardly, a life of fellowship. Contradictory as these two qualities, separateness and fellowship, may seem, both are indispensable to holiness. If either be lacking to our holiness, its nature is not complete and full.

The Bible is the greatest of all authorities upon holiness. And when we enquire of the Bible concerning the nature of the holiness, whether of persons or of things, we find that one of its chief characteristics is separateness. To sanctify means to separate. The sanctification of the Tabernacle, of the first-born, of the Sabbath Day, of the priestly garments, signified their separation from common and profane uses, and their dedication to the service of God. Similarly with holy persons. The Bible expects them to be distinct. It describes the children of the Lord as an elect race, a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a people marked out for God's own possession. The people for whom our Savior Christ gave Himself are said to be a peculiar people. Sanctified things and sanctified persons are, therefore, in the Scriptural sense of the terms, persons and things set apart. No person and no thing is regarded in the Bible as holy unless fenced off from ordinary persons and ordinary things. Distinctiveness is an indispensable quality of holiness.

But this necessary distinctiveness is of a quite remarkable character. It is a distinctiveness not of form and appearance so much as of purpose and object. The ground about the burning bush, for example, was not externally different from that of the neighboring wilderness. The incense of Moses and Aaron was chemically similar to that of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. The ark of God was made of ordinary shittim wood, and overlaid with ordinary gold. The Sabbath, regarded astronomically, was not unlike any other day of the week. The stones of the temple were cut from the common quarries, and set like the stones of other buildings. In outward appearance hardly any of these things were distinct or peculiar. Yet they were separate, sanctified, holy. God told Moses that the ground about the burning bush was holy ground. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram were consumed for burning their incense before the Lord. Uzzah was smitten to death for putting out his hand to steady the Ark. The Sabbath was a kind of sacramental sign between Jehovah and Israel. And our Lord's anger was specially kindled against those who treated the Temple courts as a market place, or, in their irreverence, were forgetful that the Temple was the heavenly Father's house, the house of prayer.

And what is true of holy institutions, and holy places, and holy things, is true also of holy persons. In one signal property, indeed, the holiness of persons is fundamentally different from the holiness of things. Holy things are not conscious of their separation unto holiness. Holy persons, on the contrary, are deeply conscious of it before God. But their consciousness of it is not, of necessity, displayed by any seclusive sign or any professional mark conspicuous to others. Their hallowing is essentially an inward hallowing. It is not separation of dress, or vocation, or traditional rule, but of aim, and character, and life. The inward spirit, and not the outward profession, is one chief test of true holiness.

And if inward separation, inward hallowing, be one test of genuine holiness, another test, equally important, is fellowship. Social commingling is as necessary a part of the nature of true holiness as spiritual separation. This is one of the keynotes of our Lord's great valedictory prayer for His disciples. 'Father, I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.' The social character of our Lord's life is one of its most remarkable features. He came 'eating and drinking.' By far the larger part of His life was spent in His foster-father's trade. The common taunt leveled against Him was that He 'was a carpenter.' His first great manifestation of His Divinity was at a marriage feast. His first miracle was a social miracle. His periods of seclusion were rare and brief. At times, indeed, He went to a desert place to rest a while, or withdrew to a mountain to pray, or was taken by the Spirit into the wilderness or some great wrestling with the Evil One; but He was soon beck again healing the sick, casting out devils, preaching to the poor. He wore no phylacteries or conspicuous clothing. He did not stand apart at the corners of the streets to pray. He kept His fastings secretly. When he did some kindly act, He 'would have no man know it.' It is true that He 'could not be hid.' But whatever notice He attracted was involuntary. He never wrought a single sign to draw attention to Himself. His light shone to His Father's glory. His works testified of Him. The great witness of his holiness was His work for men, and among men. He does not seem to have been distinguished by any mark of outward custom or appearance. He was altogether separate from the world inwardly. But his inward separation was testified principally by the tremendous energy of His social life; His mingling with the people for the people's good.

The Bible nowhere recognizes in asceticism the highest type of holiness. Our Lord Himself was no ascetic; nor were any of His Apostles. St. Peter was a married man; so probably was St. John. The great majority of the apostles were men of a social and domestic type. Even St. Paul's preference for the celibate life was not grounded on any assumption of its spiritual superiority above the married life, but solely upon consideration of utility. he preferred to be free from all household cares that he might devote himself the more fully to the social service of Christianity. Similarly he praised the self-sacrifice of women who abstained from marriage in order that they might give themselves up wholly to work for the Lord. It is in this sense only, the greater freedom for work, that St. Paul affirms the unmarried life, whether of women or of men, to be, preferable to the married life. And even to this restricted sense he is most careful to add, evidently feeling that the matter was non-essential, 'I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.'

How utterly opposed to the thought of Jesus Christ is all asceticism, all religious isolation and retreat from the world. His aim was not to get His followers out of the world. Society, not solitude, is the natural home of Christianity. The Christian is not to flee from the contagion of evil, but to meet it with the contact of health and holiness. The church is not to be built on glass posts for moral insulation, but among the homes of common men for moral transformation. What use is a light under a bushel? It must shine where there is darkness. The place of need is the field of duty, and though we are not to be of the world, we are to be first and last in the world for the world.

Still, while we are bound to remember the social character of true holiness as unfolded throughout the Bible and made especially manifest by the Incarnation, we are bound to remember also the equally important fact that holiness is essentially separate. We cannot be truly holy unless we are separate, any more than we can be completely holy without being social. In the Scriptures oil is a common figure of holiness. But oil will not mix with any matter not akin to itself. Oil poured upon troubled waters will calm but will not mix with them. So with the oil of holiness in the world. Its presence calms, and heals, and beautifies worldly things; but it does not mix with them; it cannot mix with them. The spirit of holiness is contrary to the world-spirit. The world-spirit is a time-spirit. It walks by sight, and lives by sense. It seeks material rewards. But the spirit of holiness is an altogether different spirit. Its vision pierces the walls of sense, and overleaps the limits of time. It is an eternal spirit. It sees Him who is invisible. Its hopes are anchored within the veil. Purity is its great passion. It dwells among things unseen. Its crown is incorruptible and fadeth not away. Between the world-spirit and the spirit of holiness, therefore, there can be no fellowship, no communion, no concord, no agreement. They are antipathetic, antagonistic spirits---spirits in truceless enmity with each other. Peace between them is impossible. All true disciples of the holy Savior are not only separate from sin; they are separate also from worldliness. Inward and absolute separateness from the world is as integral to the nature of holiness as outward social work in the world.

In Christ, timothy.

Thankyou - thankyou so much Tim for this post. I had been thinking about this matter of sanctification, of being separate from the world and also about ministry and marriage.

All my questions have been aswered - truly the spirit is speaking through you.

What you write is so focused on Christ that we see the message not the messenger.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake. 6 For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness hath shined in our heart to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 but we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us.

Love in Christ Gail

Hi Gail,

This is the best word that we can come up with here that you mention and that is "exclusive" teaching. Boy do we have to be aware of this. I mentioned that a red flag goes up whenever I hear of people saying that they are inspired or they hear from the Lord about different things or if things are generalized like we have seen in this case. What was given was like Mary said maybe 99% true but that 1% can be real dangerous if it takes the Lord's word to us into faulty conclusions and goes out of its way to bring others in.

My web site attracts a lot of different people. FYI, I average over 1300 visitors a day so I get all types, most of them are good and seeking the Lord however. For some people, especially in the prophetic, it takes time to mature to the point where we understand that not everything we get in our minds is from God. I guess the most common error that I see along these lines is the attitude of like:

"Since the Lord speaks to me, if you disagree, you are the one that is wrong and you must listen to what I say as absolute truth and obey me."

The prophetic has its own safeguards with cases like this and that is that we are to bear witness with each other, not in our own spirits but in our collective spirits. Prophets are to bear witness to the spirit of prophecy. That is dangerous too and discernment is needed. Whenever we get together as a group and bear witness with each other and agree, that does not make it ultimate truth either. The proof of this is back to the exclusiveness that you mention. That is how cults and denominations get started by getting together only with those that agree with their own particular doctrines and bias and exclude the rest.

Another type that I used to get, not so much now but it is that they think that they are the new Elijah or one of the two witnesses, again, what they I say is ultimate truth and we must all obey this voice. I have had Elijah visions myself and had to deal with this attitude but when I found out that others had them also, I had to come down to earth and see within myself. We can be a little tolerant with this attitude when we have but by the grace of God been there ourselves and come out of it but it is a real problem in that the pride of our calling takes us down these roads. Just so we are made aware of them and understand that it is love and humility that takes us out.


Oh mary!I cannot contain all the emotions that are going through at this time.. I'm starting to figure out why I speak sometimes to people like I do, it is a BIG SET UP from the very beginning. To the world it looks crazy, but the emotions that come out of me, are of my Father, who does'nt want to loose his kids. He is starting also to remind me of visions past, when I was'nt aware of him, that's why He tells me, "I chose you, you did not choose me". I also really got me shaking, was the endtimeharvests site that Jahn17 told me to look at, man what a bubble I've been in, and now is the time, the perfect time of the Lord, is this year!! The revelations are so much sometimes, I cry, even now at work during my lunch, I tear up, I guess I have alot of bottles of tears in the warehouse!!! well anyway, please share with me what you know too, would you? I don't think I'm really clear on all the Prophetic, I need help, I also need a lot of prayer too, because you see, THIS IS THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD for me, and next year, oh man, I'm holding on!!!

I love you so much Mary!

So the question i have been asking myself and seeking the knowledge of has been, why does the Holy Spirit speak to me and so many others today with such fervent urgency? i have some theories about this and am wondering if you Tom, or any of the others have had similar thoughts and contemplations. If having some, what did you hear?


Hi Jan,

If we were to think about it, there has always been that urgent call in some people. What we are feeling is the tug of Jesus in our hearts to bring the gospel of the Kingdom. It is more true now than it ever has been because we are just that much closer. However, we have always been limited to time on our own lifetimes through history to feel that "fervent urgency." Now it is our turn, it is the yearning on our hearts to do more, to fulfill the call. This is how the word gets spread and when we in history have heard the call in greater numbers, we get moving as a group and revivals spring forth. I feel it now especially because I know that I am living in these end-times coming to a close and having a part. It's exciting.


Someone told me, once to pray, "Lord, hasten the day". I hadn't heard that we could pray that way, but I have been doing so. Another prophesy...It hit me exactly where it should. I know....not many prophesies are really from the Lord. But a few are, I believe, and I'd like to share this one. "Beloved, you have been through a time of change and renovation. Many areas of your life are being touched and brought to correction, and though it has been challenging and difficult at times, the result is a thing of beauty. And, this process will continue on various levels, but now it is time for you to stabilize, be established and strengthened in who and where yu are. You are my trees planted by rivers of living water; take this time to put down roots. Seek to deepen your spiritual life and revitalize your commitment to do the Father's will. The enemy will do his utmost to seduce you into worldliness and excess, but for every temptation I have made a way of escape. Stand strong against distractions". ....... If the shoe fits, put it on. It fits me fine!!

Love, Marilyn Williams

Hi Jan, Marylin and all,

I think we just have to make up our minds not to be upset over anything, if you like, that forgiveness begins before any offense has taken place. I realize it is hard to put that into practice in all circumstances. But it ought to be easier for those of us who love the Lord. My mail has been terrible coming from lightship, and I have only found out what is going on by visiting the forum itself, since not everything is arriving here at home. That is how I discovered that David had taken offense. He is still here though as far as I know. I am with you that we have to work at coming to agreement, and that pride is a big enemy in that regard. We do need to be willing to surrender things that we have hold of that aren't from God. It happens to us all as Marylin so wisely said. Loving the Lord and caring about each other we have a duty to expose and deal with falseness, even our own. Ooooh! My vision is that we could do that here.

On the forgiveness and offenses topic I was reminded of a person I knew a few years back, someone my mum-in-law looked after, who had a gift for sharp and insulting remarks. Boy could she slice people up. It was as though there was a whole world of darkness inside her covered over with a thin veneer of polite speech. There was just that one percent doubt in your mind that the remarks could have been made innocently, that somehow she meant no harm. My husband's mother was a good teacher for me with this because whatever the woman said to her, she met it with good humour and love. It seemed that whatever the weight of argument to the contrary, she was going to insist that the veneer of goodness was the whole thing, and not trouble herself with the uncertain world of implied evil. This worked marvellously for 20-odd years, until one sad day the woman pushed it too far. The veneer cracked and she called my mum in law a B.liar. It was just the last straw. They never spoke again. The woman, who was alcoholic, died tragically when her house caught fire. It was her habit to sleep too close to the fireplace when she was drunk, and it is thought that this is how the fire started. My mum in law had feared that might be her end for some time. Makes you see the power that there is in what we say. At Lightship we have no problems remotely like this. We all want to serve the Lord and learn and fellowship together. I am always very grateful of Jay's ability to cut through the nonsense and state the plain truth, and all of us here have other gifts and personalities that make us a flavoursome blend together. Loving each other is more than saying it, it is getting through some of the bad patches together safely with the same end in view. That our God be glorified. Looking forward to our continuing dialogue, and may the Lord bless us all.

Love from Mary

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