Daniel's Heart

October 25, 2002

The power of intercession that comes from the heart of Daniel led the children of Israel out of the Babylonian Captivity and into restoration. Since that is what many of us are led to do in our ministries, we should listen. Israel and Judah were taken captive because they disobeyed the Lord and Daniel's heart went straight to where we should be - for the people. Well here we are, it's time to get busy.

But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivers; for a spoil, and none says, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Isaiah 42:22-24.

Daniel's heart was poured out in love for his people and worship for his God. Daniel understood, he prayed for the people, he fasted; he confessed his sins, he took the sins of the people to the Lord and asked for deliverance.

Although we all need to be delivered, many have Daniel's heart already. It is only by God's grace that we can stand with one voice and worship together. Love at the center, we leave the bickering, false authority and confusion behind. Out of Babylon, we are restoring. Many others will find the path in Jesus.

We start by being led by the Spirit and not giving in to fleshy leadership, others or ours. We are approaching the time when the wealth will pass through the righteous; we need to be ready. It is by His example that we are to cast the moneychangers out of the temple. We must therefore restore. We must stand united. We must bring about revival. We need to bring ourselves into that pure love and oneness of spirit that will signal the time for Jesus to come. Getting ready is not an option for us; it is the whole thing. Jesus tarries because we tarry and a curse then pollutes the land. If we suffer for doing right, we persevere, revival comes strongest out of the midst of apostasy and opposition. We are able to cast out demons in Jesus' name and He has told us to go.

Are we ready for Daniel's heart? His devotion to his people? His intercession? Let's just call upon the name of the Lord. Is it as easy as that? It is - if we just do it. We are called to this, are we not? One spirit. One voice. One Lord. One worship. We have His promise that He will pour out His spirit upon all flesh if we do. So let's do it, today and commit for every day without ceasing. Stretch out our hands and do everything in the name of the Lord.

And the whole world will hear of our exploits as holiness unto the Lord.

M. Adrienne Hawthorne, who provided the latter rain list server at New Life Webs, was suddenly taken to a better place Wednesday night as a result of an automobile accident. She will be missed down here but no doubt cheering us on up there. Pray for her family. Thanks for your help Adrienne. Hallelujah.



The prayer is so true, we as a body misappropriate the grace of God in many ways. We get caught up in the I'm ok your ok faith. We set back on the scripture there is none righteous, no not one, and use it to lay down our accountability, and say why even try. Yet Jesus time and time again told those who were healed, go and sin no more. If it isn't possible to do, He would not of said it! Why is it we rest on His righteousness and we are called to righteousness, which the word of God says it is our reasonable service.

One of the things I believe we need to be delivered from is what I call the Moses complex, which is, let me go see what the man of God received from God, let me stand at a distance, instead of embracing God myself. We have reverted back to the tabernacle of Moses. Instead of the higher calling, which is Christ in us, our hope of Glory,

As in the first chapter of John, we to are suppose to become, [ and the Word became flesh ] we are to dawn that garment of Glory, and become the living word once again. Lord we have so missed the mark, forgive us for receiving that which is less, that which allows the flesh to live, to walk away from incorruptible back to the corrupted.

We all have missed it. We have let the thief in, and he has stolen from us what truly is precious to us. Father return back to us that which we have given up, restore us to that which we are called to be, and set us free.

Freedom In Jesus Name

Jay, I would like to ask you. In your study, did you see Daniels heart?

Rev; Stephen Jarchow

Hello Lightship.

I received my Master's Degree in Ministry the other Saturday. Now I can keep up better with some of the great things you guys bring up. I ordered a new scanner, when it comes and when the graduation pictures arrive, I will scan them and make a page on it so you can see a picture of me and my pretty wife.

I will be getting back to business but right now am am basking in all the pomp and circumstance and for the honor to serve the Lord in this way. In the mean time, above is a message that was sent to me that we can include here. I will be thinking of a reply on Daniel's heart maybe you all too. It is a good question, I see Daniel's heart in the purity that sparks the restoration and the decree to rebuild the temple and get out of Babylon.

And on the sidelines, we should really be thinking of ourselves as loving and knowing each other enough to bring up some prayer requests. I was wondering if any of the dear ones on the lightship need prayer. I would like for us to pray for my Mother in Law. She seems pretty good today but is getting old and tired and I would like to see the Lord grant her more years.



Hi all,

Thanks Jay for your prayer on the Latter Rain newsletter, and this line in particular:

"We are not offering our prayers before you because of our righteousness but because of your great mercy. Give ear, oh Lord, forgive us and take note of our pleas."

I was thinking just a couple of days ago, struggling with myself over a recurrent difficulty, that it is only because of God's mercy, and more importantly knowing it, that I have been able to proceed at all. It seems to me that it is that place where the worship springs up from, forgive me if I am stating the obvious. It is like a place where tears meet laughter, where sackcloth is exchanged for a royal robe, and something new arises. I am not trying to formularize the process, it wouldn't work anyway because our progress in the Lord is dependant on our relationship with Him, not on following a set of rules written down. It is just I was thinking maybe we haven't got a hold yet of the power of worship within our relationship with God. I am not talking about something to do once a week on a Sunday, or worse something done by everybody else on a Sunday, but more that worship is the powerful product of a life at the foot of the cross. Even perhaps the extent to which we are making Spiritual progress, not

Gal.5:16 - "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" - That the lust of the flesh in all its manifestations would not be able to have its fulfillment in us if we walk in the Spirit is at once comforting and unsettling: How much have we walked in the Spirit? How much do we want to? We know how hopeless it is to attempt to mortify the deeds of the flesh by the flesh, but how can it be achieved by the Spirit? God doesn't lie. The means lies within our scope, if we have the Holy Spirit, but if the church is going to get holy we have to accept that we are not holy yet: we have not enough been walking in the Spirit. Could we ask again what holiness is? Is it the freedom from sin that comes by walking in the Spirit, and is one of its products, not products only...one of its weapons against sin worship? Appreciate your thoughts.

Love from Mary

I am currently reading a Book by Wiersbe about worship and it has made me re examine my worship to Him -- what is true worship ? I feel it is the awe that we feel in his presence and the quiet that this gives us not the noise we sometimes use and He seems to get lost but the time we can just sit at His feet in awe and LISTEN to Him -- is this correct?


Oh Lord, how can we not worship you? How can we not let go in one mighty voice to praise you for what you have done Lord Jesus? Examining our hearts before you we wait for you to meet us, we ask for your mercy. Cleanse us thoroughly Lord, wash us and make us whiter than snow. Take your rightful place in our hearts again Lord and revive us. There is none like you. There is nothing to compare with your beauty. There is no one and no thing able to fill that need in our hearts besides you. Oh Lord meet us even now as we gather here, fill this vessel with the fire of your presence. Thrill each heart with such a touch from you that we would burn brightly for you, and for each other, according to our ministries, according to our function, according to the measure of faith that you have given us. Let the sum of our hearts aflame for you be one bright fire of revival to change the lives of those around us, and may all who visit be spurred on to love and good works, and great exploits for your Kingdom, according to your certain promises. Lord, we need you, let not one more hour pass without a change in our circumstances according to your will, in Jesus' Mighty Name, AMEN

Love from Mary

Hi Lois and Mary's reply,

Now I think that we are getting into Daniel's heart. Worship, obedience, revival, listening to God and knowing our place in ministering to the people around us.


My heart breaks and I am filled with Sorrow and Shame when I see how MUCH I fall short of the glory of my God...do I need deliverance? Yes,.......I think more then I realize, or even understand.......when I was lost and undone. I didn't have God or His Son, that's when MY SAVIOR REACHED DOWN HIS HAND FOR ME.....I have Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but I am still a mess in many way's. it took 57 years to become who I am today. it only take's a blink of my Masters eye to change me, into whom He desire's me to be...BUT in the meantime I must be honest first with My God, then myself. everything else falls in place, it is a day by day journey, to think some people think God is a crutch and we are weak minded IN JESUS LOVE AND GRACE

Just some random thoughts triggered by the exhortation:

I have heard a lot of shallow fleshy prophetic words from some of the most accepted and renowned prophets in our community. The most recent being about Iraq. I think if they were really challenged on what they said they may well recant that it was a word-from-the-Lord. A prophet knows when God has spoken. But they get drunk with the power of people looking to them for a word from God, and say things, which are from their thinking. In the Old Testament the prophet was to be revered, but we are all prophet, kings and priests. Therefore, we should show no regard for any of these men but to listen and consider what they are saying and in the light of guidance and revelation of the Holy Spirit and make a judgement on the value and origin of the word.

Where are the Prophets?
Prophets threaten pastors apostles and people who hold positions in the church because they rarely bend the knee to the position or the person. Most people in position in the church will call that rebellion in order to sustain control and win what they see as a power struggle. This usually forces the prophet out the church, where for the most part there are thousands of prophets. If not out, then to the back benches. Now some prophets have build their won power bases with the people. They have started prophet based ministries, which has drawn some of the prophets into their fold for comfort and fellowship and teaching. Most people revere the fact that these men have thousands on their mailing list and get thousands for their ministry, and travel far and wide. Yet the quality of their ministry is often lacking greatly (my personal opinion). I have been greatly disappointed when hearing some of the "greats". In the unfolding of the true prophetic ministry I believe this to be an early stage development. These "greats" are really only the equipers of the prophets and not a full measure of the prophetic ministry, which is being prepared. The prophets are being prepared and when they reach maturity the Lord will release power and spiritual authority through them, the likes yet to be seen.

Where are the Apostles?
The current apostlic movement is for the most part a step backwards into greater authoritarianism. There are self-appointed apostles setting up hierarchical organizations and ruling them like a king ruling his kingdom. I don't see a precedent for that model in the NT. The church is an organism not an organization. It's not a franchise, nor is it franchisable. Everyone has direct access to the Father. But God is not threatened when people with carnal understanding try to do God's work for Him in their understanding. The Apostles are also in their wilderness - being prepared - waiting to be revealed. The carnal attempts by some to capitalize on what God is doing, is a symptom of the wilderness state of the Apostles. We wait patiently for the revealing of the church in her full and complete vestige. However, the scale of the unfolding of the 5 fold ministry is so huge that we may not even see it in our lifetime. The laying of the foundation that was spoken of in Heb 6 is a foundation only the Lord can lay both in an individual's life and in the church. We are where we are in Christ and we can not lay any foundation through teaching or prayer and any effort of our will. Although there is value in that, it is the Lord who rebuilding refining and preparing the church for her hour of glory. Although we are co-workers, friends and sons, we are but very small in the overall plan of God to reveal His glory in and through His church. We wait patiently, marantha.

Paul Weigel

Paul is certainly right. I have seen the same prophetic weaknesses that have been going on. On the positive side, I do see a separation happening right now, maybe you do too Paul. There is a purer spirit in the words I am seeing come forth lately. Prophets who are speaking from their own heart are being convicted. What I have noticed also is that there are too many daily words given as if it a morning horoscope or a newspaper column or something. I like it best when the Lord shows up spontaneous in a prophetic word.


2 Cor. 5:17.---' Wherefore if any man is in Christ, there is a new creation: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.'

This is St. Paul's definition of a Christian. It is so startling that it makes us do some hard thinking. 'If any man is in Christ, there is a new creation,' a new kind of man, a different kind of man. He is not merely changed on the surface, not merely one who gives up on some bad habits, or forms some new habits, or takes on some extra duties, or begins to do a bit of service. Some of these things may be a sign of a man's Christianity, but the essence of it is a radical change; it runs right down to the roots of life. It is a change of heart, of nature. Some people tell us that you cannot change human nature. If that is so we had better give up Christianity for good. For that is precisely what it sets out to do. If it does not do that it has no more real power than any good system of morals.

Christ did not come into this world to patch up an old religion, merely to mend a hole here, and beautify a spot there, and add a touch to this part or that; He came to make all things new. And when He saves a sinner, He does not propose merely to mend up a little here and there, to cover over some bad spots in him, and to close up tears in his character by strong patches of the new cloth of grace. Christ does not sew on pieces; He weaves a new garment without seam throughout.

What is this difference? Is it not just this, that a Christian is living not with self, but with love for others, at the center if his being? He has ceased to have self on the throne and has begun to think of others, to FEEL WITH others. This sounds very simple and very commonplace. But it runs very deep; it is a difference at the very fount of our nature. To realize how deep it runs we have only to think of what we call the 'natural man'---never in reality escaping the mentality of only the strong survive, however refined he may be. He thinks of himself, his rights, his possessions, his reputation, even his own perfection. You find this selfishness working out in all kinds of ways. You find it in the thoughtlessness of the scoundrel, who does not care what harm his vicious habits may be doing to others; but you find it also in the man for whom other people are mere instruments to his own comfort and ease. You find it in the man who seeks power and wealth for himself; but you find it also in the

But now look at the new creation; he is not thinking only of his own rights, but also of the rights of others, of their right to manhood and womanhood, to friendship and love. He is not out seeking for his own advantage; he seeks to serve God and his fellows as life opens up opportunities. He is not conscious of a goodness of his own, for generally he does not believe he has any; he is only conscious of the Love that fills his heart and longs to help others to know it too. For the chief mark of the new nature is that its goodness is spontaneous; its duty is not a calculated or mechanical service. It is like a spring rising freely by its own inner impulse from some deep source within the heart.

This, then, is what it means to be saved. It is to be saved out of a life of which self is the center, into a life of which love is the center. Real salvation is deliverance from selfishness in all its forms, into love in all its forms. One of the biggest things that could happen at this moment in the Church's and the world's life is that people should come to see that sin is selfishness, selfishness appearing in pride and self-will and wrong ambition and greed and censoriousness and all manner of uncharitableness. That is the root of all sin---just selfishness; for it is the denial of our true nature as the children of the Father and as members of His family. The real test of our nearness to God is the way we feel about one another.

This experience makes a new world. 'Old things are passed away; behold they are become new.' The trouble with us is that in our self-centered outlook we do not see the real world. Very few of us are conscious of things as they are, so blinded are we by illusion, by pride, by selfishness. Neither things nor people are able to show their true face to us. A psychologist says that most people go about the world half-conscious---that is, only half-alive to reality. Only one person was fully conscious---Jesus Christ. And when we see Christ, His love tears away the veils; there is a new look about everything. The old prizes of life, as we thought them, lose their glamour; wealth and position are no longer in the first place. The call to service that was a troublesome spur to conscience becomes the joyful music of His voice. We see people with new eyes, as the children of God, our brothers and sisters for whom Christ died. It is a new world, all through, to which Christ brings us; and only the changed

That is why the Sermon on the Mount sounds such impossible doctrine to the man who is looking at it from the outside. 'Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you. Judge not that ye be not judged. If any man compel thee to go a mile with him, go with him twain.' What a world it is! Its glistening peaks seem to shine with such impossible splendor and such cold, hard perfection that men look at it and pass it by. But it was Christ's description of the kind of life that would be lived by those whose hearts had been won by Him and changed from selfishness and pride to Christ likeness. It is not easy, indeed, for these. It demands a constant expulsion of self by love; a constant fellowship with Him in which pride is broken and hardness softened, and the eyes kept open to God, who meets us everywhere. But it is the way of life in the new world which Christ makes possible and into which He brings us.

It is only by people with this changed heart that Christ's kind of civilization is going to be brought in. The unregenerate world in which we live demands from success in it such qualities as love of power, the spirit of gain, the hardness that is steeled against the sufferings of others, the self-centered, aggressive nature that refuses to let anyone stand in our way: these are the qualities that wins success in the world that now is. And so long as these qualities hold sway, so long will it remain what competition, pride, and selfishness have made it. Under whatever system of government, the world can be no better, no sweeter, no cleaner than the hearts of the people who run it. The aggressive, self-centered spirit, either of the classes or the masses, will never make it new. It is the new humanity which will make the new world, and Christ came to make both new.

In Christ, timothy.

Worship is many things, but the highest worship is to give to God the most precious thing you have - your life. To put to death the flesh and your own will and live a life obedient to the Holy Spirit is the HIGHEST form of worship. That is what Jesus did, and He is our example. The rewards of being crusified with Christ are to also be resurrected with Him. Worship therefore is not a song sung, or extolling God's good character. That is the sacrifice of our lips. Worship is a life lived completely for Him. To walk every day obedient to the Holy Spirit is the highest form of worship because God prefers obedience to our sacrifices.

Paul Weigel

~~~ The verse you begin with sounds like a darkness to light immediate change, and I guess by faith it is already so, but we know even Peter struggled with his nature still.

Your messages are thought-provoking. I was thinking the other day something along this line. The best reason to do something the right way, to be good, is for love of the other person who we could cause to fall or doubt by our sin. (the love of Christ controls us). I've failed so much here. Hopefully, something better lies ahead and I won't just be a lesson for others what not to do, but I guess we all find ourselves there sometimes too. Forgetting what lies behind... Coming from the background I came from, a works-based cult, I have some difficulty with some of this below because it sounds too easy from my damaged perspective to fall into "doing something" to feel approved. And also because I've seen people steam-roll others with their version of zealousness, rather than, love is long-suffering and all the other characteristics

I looked in the archives to find some information about this list, but didn't get to spend too much time there. I was curious, seeing that people are from different areas of the world, how this list came to be. Lori ~~

Hi Lori; not close; But being a child in the Kingdom. Grace flows from you.

The beams of light which shine from Christ are many. That the Almighty is our Father, infinite in Love: that He grants forgiveness and release from despair to all who truly turn to Him; that holiness is possible, and virtue can be victorious because both are His will; that it is better for a man to bear anything rather than to sin; that work is hopeful and the doing of duty neither vain nor unblest; that suffering comes of the love of God, and is the way to peace. To believe in the light is to believe all these, and to act upon the belief.

Christ Jesus said, 'That ye may become children of Light'---that is, natives of it, with the light in our hearts [spirits] and the health of it in our blood. For today the most of us do not live our lives with our eyes open and our hearts pure. Either we do our daily duty in blindfold routine, like a horse on the round of a mill-path, and with no sense of the meaning or the joy of what we do. Or else, if our eyes be open and our hearts keen, and we desire not to be the slaves of habit, we are troubled by having to turn from the use of the light to constant inquiry about it; and we are hindered in the work we have to do while it is yet day, by having perpetually to ask whether it really be day after all.

But Christ calls us through belief in the light [John 12:36], to that state in which we shall have burst equally from the blindness of mere habit and the shadows and perplexities of doubt; in which we shall be as little dead to God and His meaning for our life, as far from doubting or being unconscious of them, as loving children are beyond doubting or being unconscious of their father. We shall use the light with open eyes and clean hearts, as freely and joyfully doing the Father's will as Christ Himself.

And I can only think of; that how this list came to be---It was only God's doing. And as far as what is keeping it together---It has only to be Him. Because it would be a frightful thought that it had something to do with me---only saying that because I wished more people would write too.

Love ya Lori;

Zech. 4:1.---' And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man is wakened out of his sleep.'

The man who wrote these words was a preacher, whose business it was to see and to help his fellows to see; and yet he confesses that in central matters he had not seen as he should. He knew the Temple and its solemnities; he knew what the priests did there and the people; and, if one had questioned him, he might have said that God's presence there was indispensable. He knew, but he did not think; and here he makes confession that, had it not been for the merciful provocation of God, he never would have known these things as they deserve. Zechariah was not a stranger to the higher reaches of apprehension; in the past months he had gone from vision to vision, and the experience might have quickened all his faculty. But customs flattens everything, and the very sense of knowing these things so well had dulled his curiosity. 'My better sense was asleep, and it needed a messenger of God to awaken me to a sight of what I thought I understood; but now, by God's mere grace, it looks to me strange and miraculous

Such a confession, so artlessly made, is full of admonition. We may have behind us a record of insight and of days of lifted mood; but it is never safe to reckon that yesterday's gift is with us still, untouched by the corrosions of the years. There are words which, at one time, brought up before our sense the living majesty of God; and though we still consent to them it is with little quickening of pulse. We may profess that they are great, but certainly they are not great to us as once they were; and that may mark a grievous falling off. In his Ephesian Letter Paul traces back the debasement of pagan morals to the fact that men had ceased to feel; they were no longer shocked by what ought to have shocked them, and thus they were free to wander away always farther away from virtue. And much of the stagnation within the Church, of the lack of willing effort, of the lack of confident expectation and gladness, is traceable to the same source---that Christian folk have so much ceased to feel. The love

This world in which we live is to many of us altogether familiar and trivial; but if our senses were awake, says the prophet, we should see it to be in great part unexplored. Those of us who live in a place of romantic beauty must often be reminded of this. We know that our city is extolled, and in a tepid way we do ourselves admire it; but those days we go about the streets with scarcely a thought of the scenes which men cross oceans to look upon. But now and then, when some shift of light falls in with a favoring mood, it seems as if a curtain were lifted, and we marvel at our accustomed dullness. It is in this that poets help their fellows, lending their eyes out, so that plain men, gain through them a sense of the vital quality of things. That is what all prophets do. Elisha and his servant were trapped one night in the little town of Dothan; and in the morning the lad was struck with panic when he saw the marauding troops shutting the city in. But the prophet asked that the lad's eyes should

When this Divine gift of awakening is granted to a man it changes his whole outlook, and brings impossible things within his reach. In telling of the Transfiguration, Luke notes one fact, which the other Evangelists omit, that peter and his companions 'were heavy with sleep,' and he adds, 'but when they were fully awake they saw Christ's glory.' There is much virtue in that adverb, and it may be questioned if, in the Evangelist's sense, some of us have ever yet been fully awake. Up that hill there had toiled four workingmen, who, in the face of the wealth and learning and tradition of their race, had dreamed of a new beginning in religion. It seemed a hopeless venture, for the oppositions and the prejudices were not imaginary. But when they were fully awake, and knew the resources of this astonishing world in which God is continually revealed, they saw their Master radiant and exalted; they saw the great figures of their history coming like courtiers to do Him homage, coming and withdrawing, while H

But if this awakening of sense is so desirable, the question grows urgent of how to attain to it. With a fine vagueness the prophet reports that 'the angel came and waked him,' but he nowhere tells what the angel was like; and if he had told, the description would have helped us little, since God's messengers to men are not always of one shape or fashion. sometimes the angel is altogether anonymous, a passing stranger, or a chance word which finds an undreamed-of context in the conditions of him who overhears it.

It is when the Spirit of the Lord rests upon a man that he becomes quick of understanding, so that he no longer judges after the sight of his eyes. This, surely, is what we most require; and in this we are not left to uncertainty, for nothing is plainer in the New Testament than that the gift of the Spirit may be had for the asking. Jesus lays down the one condition on this point with a simplicity, which is almost startling. 'If with all your faults you are able to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit TO THEM THAT ASK HIM?' The words do not suggest any labor in seeking, for indeed the Spirit is about us like the atmosphere, and all that is needed is that we should open the windows of our heart and let Him in. If He came to our intellect, He would make us less prejudiced, more truth loving, less hampered by timidity and conceit. If He came to our character, He would free us from self-love and would so enrich us with all gentleness and all cou

In Christ, timothy.

Dear Paul,
I just wanted to add some thoughts to what you said here.........
The Forerunner Ministry wrote:
"Just some random thoughts triggered by the exhortation:"

I haven't personally heard any of these kinds of words, but biblically all prophecy is to be judged. I think that's the problem, we don't have that kind of system in place in the church at large. Maybe in local congregations, but not in general.

You are correct that we are all kings and priests, but we are not all prophets. Some people are called to the 5 fold prophetic ministry and some have the 1Cor. 12 gift of prophecy resident within them. I disagree that we should show no regard for these men. The word of God says if you received a prophet in the name of a prophet you receive a prophets reward.

I don't think you can generalize here that prophets threaten all pastors and then leave the church and go out on their own. I know many pastors who are not threatened by prophetic ministry, my husband included. If a prophet or anyone else for that matter, wants to walk in great authority, they must be under authority. There is God's government and we must find our place in it. I think its the insecure that are threatened by another's anointing. We have a woman in our church who walks in great prophetic anointing and she is submitted to oversight.

I agree!! (disappointed when hearing some of the "greats".)

My husband and I put our ministry under an apostolic network here in NYC. It is NOT authoritarian! We are receiving help and training. I don't see that it is a step backward to greater control. Control in the church is witchcraft, not the ministry of Jesus. If someone is controlling they will be so no matter what they call their ministry. I believe that there is a true apostolic restoration, but also many false apostles are coming forth. Its just important for us as the church to know the word of God and to judge truth from falsehood. But again, I don't' like to generalize. It may be true that SOME are controlling, but NOT all.

Well, just my 2 cents!

Be blessed,


And to throw in my two cents, I believe that there is the system in place and that is the prophetic itself. In that so many churches do not operate in the prophetic, they are the church at large that we are warned to flee. But we are not going to always be in the same place and when prophecy is not judged in one place, it is certainly judged in another. As long as a New Testament system is in place and insisted on and being exercised in the Spirit, no matter what church, there will be checks and balances within the prophetic. Prophets bear witness to the spirit of prophets.

I believe that it works best under holiness environments through a sanctified congregation. That is not a popular doctrine.


Hi again,

A week has passed since the conference and I have had time to consider events and duties and related decisions. Some good things seem to have come out of the disaster, as is often God's way.

I seek your prayers for the pastor who is faithful to his vision in spite of what has happened. He needs to seek the Lord, and sooner rather than later. At present he is happy to seek man's comfort and man's encouragement and man's assessment of what went wrong. Much as I love him I can't see there is anything I can do to help him with that for now, but I would like a chance to be there for him in some way at some point when he begins to see his need.

The Bishop's influence is spiritual, but in the worst kind of way. Looking back I can see that my pastor's attempts to comply with his wishes have wreaked havoc among the little flock. We have had some genuine conversions and Holy Spirit baptisms and healings, and some of us were beginning to move in ministry and gather some confidence. But the closer the Bishop got to us (he was the "main attraction" from overseas at the conference), the more we felt scrapped and discarded - we were treated like the scrapings from someone's shoe - and the pastor did nothing to protect us. Yet I think if the pastor was honest he struggled to carry out the instructions of the man he believed to be in authority over him spiritually....his heart (I hope) was longing to do things differently.

I have seen my brethren brokenhearted as a result of all of this, and we are clinging together to comfort each other at present. That is good, really good. Precious to feel the Lord's presence in our conversations, in our meetings and our prayers. There are more tears to shed yet, and wounds to heal, but I know God is faithful, and will reveal the preciousness of this kind of suffering as time goes by.

I said a few days ago to someone, I thought the pastor should "ditch the Bish" ....before it is too late. The chances of that are remote in worldly terms...but nothing is impossible with God. I am more than willing to make that suggestion should the Lord give me that responsibility. I know I love the pastor and can anticipate the pain he will go through to unravel the error that has been taught him and get back to the authority of Christ within. I really think this is the case. Unfortunately since I am at present shoe scrapings there will be no way for me to say so for the time being. Even so I would like that opportunity in the future, and seek your prayers for it.

Thanks for listening,

Love from Mary

Hello, Mary. Your letter is interesting to me. Yes, I will surely pray that, if it is Lord's will at this time, the opportunity will open up for you to minister to your pastor. First, God will have to stir up the nest, so to speak, and the Pastor will have to be awakened to his need to put God first. I know of some "good" pastors, who are really struggling to do the Lord's will. Most have not seen that they are leaning on this or that person or ministry or denomination, etc. If they could only see that God wants them to hear HIS voice, and obey Him, and "go up on the mountain", instead of refusing to hear Yahweh's thunderous voice for themselves. We know that that thunderous voice is just a still, small, loving voice, if we but listen. I will pray for the pastor, the congregation, and for you, too. I think we all have been there, and some are "still there", but thank our Eternal Father, He is enabling us to hear His voice at this time. "My sheep know My voice, and another they will not follow". Amen. Your Sister, Marilyn Williams-

Hi Mary and everyone.

Isn't this just a perfect example of the false leadership and authority that has wreaked havoc on the church for so long. I will go out on a limb here and say that most Christians in fellowship have been abused by the leadership over them. That's the problem is in the phrase "over them." I know that Paul used the term that we are ruled over but this was in context of in the Lord and not in the flesh. Although he was fond of using the term "rule over you," Jesus taught that it was not to be so among us. God hates the lust for power in the church.

For all the confidence that we all have in the inspiration of the Bible, we are still faced here with two incompatible views concerning rulership in the church. We cannot doubt the Bible but we can come up with a suitable explanation if we can only come up with explanations that agree with each other. Paul and the writer of Hebrews taught that we should submit to those that rule over us, James taught that we should submit to God. Peter taught that we should submit to the elders and also that we should "be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." Paul added that we should submit to those over you as "in the Lord," wives should submit to husbands as fitting "in the Lord." The answer lies somewhere in the fact that we should submit to others only as they are submitting to God. The problem of course is that leadership in the church take power upon themselves out of their position in the flesh with titles and positions and pride rather than in God's spirit.

The real issue is how we should react to the kind of circumstances that Mary is faced with. Godly people wanted to bring revival to the area and others took it over and made it business as usual, exalting themselves, exercising their position of leadership, promoting their books and tapes and thereby quenching the spirit. In these cases, this "rulership" was false. We are also taught that we are all priests and kings, does this not make us only subordinate to the king of kings and not to this fleshly authority? The answer is obvious to some but obviously not practiced by all.


Hi Jay and all,

It looks to me like the suffering of that kind starts as soon as you get serious with God. It is like, the moment you start believing God and wanting Him at any cost, you start to get your eyes opened to what is really happening in the church and become a victim of the fleshly rule. I am seeing it as though what happens is that you actually change position, that Jesus brings you to a different position beside Him where you must view things as He views them, and that necessitates some suffering. From that position it is no longer acceptable to continue to have business as usual, and it is impossible to pretend that all is well when it isn't. From that position it hurts like nothing you ever felt before, it is Godly sorrow, and that is why you have a hard time finding people who understand what it feels like to grieve for the church while you stay under fleshly leadership and try to do things like they have always been done.

In my little fellowship, one person in particular is currently going through this process and coming to terms with the fact that his trust has been abused, the innocent lovely thing that he thought he had has been spoiled and soiled and he needs to talk, talk, talk. It is happening quickly with him. The other day he told me God comforted him with Ezekiel 34 and suddenly I knew precisely what he was going through, because the same happened to me a few years back. We have had a lot to share. We are actually beginning to gather each other together again minus the bogus leadership, one way of doing things I guess.

I am not content with that alone because there are some who are unwitting victims, and now we have seen just how far the leadership have perverted the Word from the top down, it grieves me to know there are loved ones still in there struggling. What to do. That is why I need your prayers to get an opportunity to speak frankly with the pastor and I have asked him for that.

To my knowledge Jesus doesn't write people off. He never wrote me off and doesn't now even though I can still appall myself with my own thoughts and my own disobedience and my own stubbornness. I can't afford to look down on anyone from this place! Perfect we aren't, and neither will we be until we start working together with what God has given us. Got to be ready to do it if He says do it, and not bale out. Maybe we can't be perfect, but we can be ready, it's a start.

Love from Mary

Hi Lightship,

What must be done in these kinds of circumstances is to put away the suffering and get on with what we set out to do. To suffer is one thing but if the suffering is because we gave the situation the victory, then we have given up. What was given in love was a desire for revival. The flesh won a skirmish but the victory has already been won. It is only about getting out from under false authority and that might take more than one time. Your pastor, Mary, seems like a good man, he loves the Lord and wants to serve. So don't let him go down, do another revival. No mammon allowed.


Hi again,

I agree that revival is the reason for going on, nobody wants to give up on that idea. If the suffering I am seeing turns out to be the kind that God uses to bring that revival, then let's learn everything we can from it and not put it away before time. We all need to learn some things, and the option is there, whether to learn it in the way that God wants us to or keep ignoring Him and choosing the easy, well-worn path - that is the long way around and God won't bless it until we are listening, it is a waste of energy.

I have had no response from my pastor yet. I will let you know if there is one. He has tried the heavy shepherd bit with me once or twice, but backed down because I stood up to him and didn't run off. Obviously he has his own questions that need to be addressed. And if he listens to God he will have his own suffering to go through to get rid of the false leadership set up. I am right there beside him if that happens. But I can't pretend to him that things are right when they are clearly wrong.

No mammon allowed! - I like that.

Love, Mary

JN 17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

This is the most striking prayer in the Bible. It is the prayer of the Son of God to Our Father Concerning us in this present age ('those who will believe'). His prayer was and is 'that all of them (we) may be one'. Not two or three gathered...but ONE with each other in Christ. He gave us the tool to be ONE...His glory. And the glory is Christ in us and God in Christ... ONE.

Complete UNITY is the only way to let the world know that Christ came into the world. Otherwise, it is a fairy tale or a fable. A good story but one that has no real validity. Why no validity? No effect. If we are not ONE then Christ came for nothing. His sacrifice bears no real fruit.

Love is the reason for this whole process. Love for the Son of God. Love for the Sons of God in Christ Jesus. If there is not Oneness...then there is nothing at all. The Denominational and Non-Denominational local "Church" has failed, and cannot succeed in any way to bring about COMPLETE UNITY in the body of Christ. It is not possible.

No matter how hard Adam tries to convince himself that he can attain unity, there is only unity in Christ. The local 'Church' is a product of Adam. Remember the Flaming Sword? Adam cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus did not save Adam. He killed Him. God raised to life eternal a totally NEW CREATION. Adam is excluded because he is dead and will stay dead. We must understand this.

The good intentions of good men in local churches are noble, but ineffective in the Kingdom just by their very nature. They are products and inventions of men to clean up and mould Adam into a perfect man. That cannot happen. Only the revelation of Christ in us can complete unity be achieved. There is no dispute on this point. What denomination, or non-denomination has brought complete unity to the Body of Christ?

What doctrinal theme is so perfect that we can all agree? What creed supercedes all others as to make the rest fall to the earth in flames before the fire of it's complete truth? The answer is simple. There is none. But Christ requires it. Unity...One with Christ is an imperative for the World to believe. Not the favored few crowding into local churches...the WHOLE WORLD. Make no mistake brothers and sisters God is not interested in the remnant, He wants it ALL.

Truth is not a perfect doctrine that all Churches can agree on, the Truth is a person and the person is Christ and the person is US and the person is ONE. I am ready to discuss this.

I love you all

Max Ende

You got that right Max,

Not only will this unity tell the world that Jesus has come but I believe that it will the deciding factor that will bring Him back for us in the second coming.


Yes. He will not return to a bleeding and divided body, but a glorious ONE without spot or wrinkle.

EPH 1:9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Apparently the 'times' have reached there fulfillment because we understand this passage. All things will be brought together under one head...He Himself. Can you separate the body from the head? Is it not the same person? The same substance? The same thing?

And think of this also, Jay. The head commands the body but the body carries the head. David was installed to the thrown of Israel by his followers.

It would appear we have a task to perform.

Your brother in Love
Max Ende

Yes, and we are joined to him at the neck. The neck turns the head.


I was asked one time by a high profile leader in the USA about suffering. This leader's background was the river/revival/faith Movements. He said, "isn't it negative to accept suffering rather than rise up against it". I wasn't expecting the question but the Lord answered him with words I will never forget. He said through me, "Jesus didn't go to the cross to die, He went to the cross to be resurrected. We don't focus on death and suffering but on the glory of the resurrection."

This may be semantics only but I see revival as a little shot of God's presence (grace) which helps us get through the suffering to the resurrection. Each point of suffering surrendered to in Christ brings about something more permanent than revival. If we are crucified with Christ we will be resurrected with Him. This is to be seated with Christ in heavenly places. Spiritual authority is therefore connected with suffering. Hence, the previous post about the Chinese church asking leaders to recount the suffering they have endured for the Body of Christ and the Gospel before they confirm their ministry.

We may have discussed suffering well enough, however suffering and personal resurrection are interconnected.

Blessings and Love
Paul Weigel

Love's Claim

1Cor. 13:7.---' Love believeth all things.'

Those who know the world, or have had large dealings with men, are constantly reminding us that it is not wise to give our confidence too unreservedly to anyone. Indeed, it will be strange if, to all of us, experiences have not come which have led to a dismal despair concerning human nature.

At the same time, all of us surely have experience which gives the lie to this dreary view of human nature---the experience of friendship or of love. For, once a man loves, he believes in him whom he loves. Love idealizes; and love trusts; and, even when dark facts are known about the person loved, love hopes for a day in which the loved one will be all that is dreamed for him.

We should always be sorry for censorious and suspicious people. For it must needs be that their conditions, or their experience, have been mournful. They may have been born with a querulously suspecting mind. Or they may have trusted and been bitterly disappointed; and in the haste of their disappointment have said, "all men are a lie." Or they may themselves be liars, in that fearful sense of being a carefully-concocted, long-continued heart-sham, and judge all men by themselves. But, whatever of these may be their experience, it certainly can be said that they do not know human love and human friendship; for no noble friend can be suspicious and censorious long. Love known strongly by a man almost always affects his attitude taken to other men. It leads one to believe [as we ought to believe] that men are better than their deeds; or, at least, that even if in this and that particular they be untrustworthy, they are splendid in possibility. Even in the face of disaster, Love, as a fact in the experience of all of us, believeth all things.

Let us try to carry this idea into the highest of all spheres. And in this way. In the central doctrine of Christianity we have the supreme illustration of the fact that love believeth all things; and there is, therefore, a supreme call upon our honor not to betray the trust of the love of God.

The heart of Christianity is found in the Cross of Christ. The glad tidings which we have to proclaim is the redemption of men through the Cross of Christ. The great and amazing fact which we have to preach is that God sent His Son Jesus---Himself in human form---to be born and to grow, sinless, to be lonely and weary and tempted, to be betrayed, to be buffeted upon the cheek by an impious hand, to be purple-robed and thorn-crowned, to be in solitary agony in a garden and to die, that men, beholding Love in pain unto death, might be saved and be like Jesus. That is the essential of Christianity.

But we see that that view has certain implications. It implies that men are worth saving. God does not go all the length of a dead Christ, for a purpose which is not worth while. It also implies that men can be saved. God is not, if we may use the word, a visionary. He does not do that which cannot have its effect. Therefore, in sending Jesus to save men, He teaches us that men may be made like Jesus.

But, if men can be made like Jesus, surely this is involved---that men can be attracted by goodness when it is seen. That, again, implies that men, here and now, have a certain desire for goodness. Man, that is to say, aspires. And his aspirations may be realized, or the Divine project is doomed to failure from the beginning. But we know, from painful experience, the ineffectiveness of unaided aspiration. So, with the aspiring, there must be also a faculty of laying hold upon strength from without, which is the faculty of faith. Without aspiration and without faith on our part, the Divine purpose for us in the Cross of Christ could not be realized. We may say then that the fact of the Cross implies a belief in us as able to aspire and to trust. In this way as in others, the Cross restores our self-respect. It displays a Divine estimate of us as nobler than we dared to think, and as possessing possibilities grander than once we dared to dream. The Love that is God believes in us.

But the chief importance of these implications of our beliefs lies in the application of them. Our friends believe in us. That we know. But also God believes in us. That is involved in our Christian faith. Given these two facts, a mighty inspiration is granted to us, and with it a clear call to honor.

But, the more, is the inspiration of the God-belief in us. It is very wonderful. We are sick of ourselves. Well, that is not surprising. Lusts, thoughtlessness, selfishness, compromisings of principle surprise us. We have settled down into a kind of average morality. There is nothing very squalid in it; but all the glow of a lofty idealism is dead. We think that the heights are not for us. We are sunk in a kind of contented hopelessness. Against all that half-hearted view of life, let us set the death of Christ. We say we are not worth it. That is not the point. He thought we were. We are despairing of soul for ourselves. How can we despair? It is almost the last injury to Jesus. Christ thought us good enough to die for. God grant us to recognize ourselves worth the death of Christ.

Let us also remember the call to honor that there is in this love-believing. Here stand these women, these children, and above all, this Lord. Are we to betray their trust? The whole manhood of us rises against that possibility. Rather, we shall say, 'Thou believest in me enough to die for me; and I am man enough to fight against Thine enemies.' And when that is our true speech, He who can never know defeat makes it His business to see that we win.

In Christ, timothy.

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