The Manifest Sons and Babylon
The idea that we are the Manifest Sons is considered foolishness to
those that are not led by the spirit of God. Those of us that are
included in what is described as "we" come from all walks of life, all
branches of the Christian church, all levels of maturity and giftedness
coming together as one to form the last day army of God. Firm direction
and a narrow focus is necessary to be included in this heavenly
congregation according to the spirit of God, not the spirit of man or
the delusions, exclusiveness and false doctrines of denominations.
Restoration in these last days include restoring the power and
simplicity of the early church, building upon what God has taught us in
the last 6000 years and scripturally rebuilding the temple of God. We
are not rebuilding the physical temple that some are waiting for but the
"temple made without hands." The building materials that we are using
for the temple of the New Jerusalem come down from heaven, not from the
earth.
The counterpart to the manifest sons is Babylon herself, it will be
those that have been caught up in this confusion that will do what they
can to hinder the restorative work and come against those that have been
called to it. With God's help, we have discussed much this year of the
false practices that we must separate from. We have discussed the
Nicolaitan spirit as being the separation of clergy and laity. We
recognized that laying on of hands is a foundational doctrine and is
used as a plumb line to identify those with and without the power. We
have identified the oneness doctrine as heretical and hateful and
affirmed the trinity. We understand that no one particular gift can
identify the true church unless it is love. With that we can include the
doctrines that classical Pentecostals have concerning tongues as the
only evidence of the Holy Ghost as being schismatic. We can also include
in that, the idea that the evangelical gift to the exclusion of others
is false. Not only is the religious confusion and ignorance identified
in Babylon but those under the political and economic right wing
insanity that elevates nationalism, the law and order police state and
the luke-warm materialism of the One World Order above God's
righteousness. There has been a call to flee from Babylon and many of us
have but the time is short. Soon there will be a time where it will be
too late to get out and many in the church will be caught up in the
fall.
We have discussed good things, true things, things that have been given
to us by inclining our ears to what the spirit is saying to the
churches. Now listen to what "We" are saying. Below are more good
things. We must understand that to be part of the Bride of Christ and
the harvest is to go through sifting and tribulation first. We are the
sanctified ones to ready the Bride; the Bride is not prepared yet. Our
enemies spread lies about us and satan is right here poised to attack.
Just like building a physical building, we need the foundation and
framework to be true. A plan of action has been called for: this is the
plan - get your loved ones out of Babylon so they can be prepared among
the spotless Bride!!!
Also below is a link to one of the enemies of restoration and revival. I
do not need to go to the site; I have been there and praise God for what
is happening. The Lord's sheep hear the voice of the shepherd, so those
that are led by the spirit of God will see through the lies and
deceptions that groups like this perpetrate on their unsuspecting
victims. The only ones that fall for this kind of stupid reasoning are
those destined to fall with Babylon. It is indeed sad to think that many
are misled by these fundamentalist cults but the good part is that they
are alerting those that are truly led by the Holy Spirit to the glaring
differences to what the Manifest Sons led by God truly stand for against
the confusion of Babylon. We all know that satan will discredit us from
within and without. These heresy hunter cults will look for all the
discrepancies that have ever been committed by those claiming to be part
of the restoration or latter rain movements and focus on any heresy or
false doctrine that any person in the movement has fallen into and
condemn the whole because of its parts. That is like saying that all
Lutherans are false because Martin Luther taught determinism and took
the sacrament out of marriage. These are devil tactics, those with the
spirit of God will see right through them. The fact is that the manifest
sons that will be revealed will be the most orthodox and Bible believing
of any and this will make religious Babylon jealous to the point of
allowing the adversary to take advantage of them out of their own pride
and denial of spiritual power. Let them, they can do us no harm in the
long run except to themselves and those already led by the devil.
Are we through with the manifest sons? Never. We may be through with the
topic, but the concept itself will be the underlying fact that will
motivate us to do all that we can do to promote unity, love and holiness
until Jesus comes for us.
This time, rather than discussion, I would like to hear from you all.
There are many of you from all parts of the world, so let's hear from
you and what it is that you might like to say or discuss. Where are you
from? What is your church background? Where would you like to see this
group going, or where would you like to see yourself going? Please keep
it to one not-so-long paragraph. If you would like to just give us your
name and where you are from, this is good.
I'll be the first:
My name is Jay Atkinson and I am from Stockton, California, USA. My
mother brought me up Baptist but after I was baptized in the Holy
Spirit, I recognized that my giftings and the power of the Holy Spirit
were being taught against in the church. Early on, God started alerting
me to divisions. In the seventies, I spent much of my time in community
service and thrived on controversy. In the eighties, I ended up in
trinitarian Pentecostal Holiness, mostly in the black church and spent
much time in study to prepare for writing. I spent the nineties hardly
ever going to church but deep in study and preparing for my web site on
the computer before there was even a web. I am blessed to be a part of
this group and although content with discussion, I would like to see us
also as an action group. I would like to discuss the idea of whether
"all Christians are saints" or not. I believe that through the cross
that we are justified through faith in Jesus and that we are then to
grow into sanctification. I see myself in the future as continuing what
God started in me with my web site and these discussions, writing a book
someday and being involved in revival.
Now let's hear from you.
Jay
Dear Jay,
a few rambling thoughts:
1. The bride is apparently not dressed and ready until late in the book
of
Revelation, only after the great tribulation (Rev 19:7-8). Why did it
take
so long for her to get dressed? Perhaps because she needed to be
purified
by the crucible of trial and suffering; i.e., the wilderness. (Remember
the multitude greater in number than any one could count who emerge
victorious at the sixth seal having come OUT OF great tribulation and
having washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb?)
Some would say, "How can God do that to His bride?" But how could He do
else? His Son was perfected through His suffering. How else could His
bride be perfected? It is a privilege and an honor and a birthing to
walk
as Jesus walked. All creation is groaning as in birthpains for the
revealing of the sons of God. Are we willing to endure birthpains or
will
we fall away and find our love growing cold? We have not appropriated
the
way of the cross. Our flesh still often runs the show.
2. I see the man-child and the 144,000 firstfruits of Rev 14 as one
and
the same. They mature early and are "snatched up" to the throne of God.
Holy, mature, with authority, and victorious. It is no coincidence that
immediately after their arrival in heaven, satan is booted to earth.
(Remember, Jesus gave His church ALL AUTHORITY over the evil one...and
He
is waiting for His church to rise to that authority!) I don't believe He
is
going to lift a finger beyond what He has already done to overcome satan
until the church acts in the authority she has been given. He has
delegated that authority to the church. (Of course without Him we are
nothing, but "in His name" we have been given all authority to invoke
His
power to overcome the evil one.) Jesus rejoiced after the return of the
70
because He was looking forward in time and seeing His just fledgling
church
mature and rise to the full authority He desired for them...and their
first act upon arrival in heaven is to boot satan out of heaven to
earth!
And on earth satan is overcome by the "rest of the woman's offspring"
who
are themselves brought simultaneously to maturity during the battle.
3. Is your wilderness over?? Answer: are you perfected yet? The
letter
to the church at Thyatira implies that we will be given whatever it
takes
during great tribulation in order to purify us. All the churches will
know
this when it is happening. Those who mature early may qualify as
firstfruits; those who do not will be purified with the refining fires
of
great tribulation as necessary. Salvation is not the issue here.
Perfection is the issue. I believe even those of Thyatira who are
thrown
into great tribulation are thrown there not as punishment but for
redemptive purposes. They are still the church. Glory awaits. He will
have His bride without spot or wrinkle. Apparently the degree of
purification that He desires can be brought forth only through the
process
of great tribulation.
For Him,
Vern Kuenzi
www.restoringthevision.com
Jay, Here are some thoughts on the manifest sons of God. I think I have
much
to say on the subject but haven't got it together yet. Here is my first
effort:
This is the hour for which the whole creation groans as in travail,
awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. Who are the sons of God?
Jesus, the pattern Son, was made perfect through suffering that He might
bring many sons to glory. All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons
of
God. The manifest sons of God are those who have come into God's
presence on
His Holy Mountain. They have entered into His glory and have gone out
into
the world to manifest that glory. Christ is living His life through
them.
They are wholly sanctified, totally committed to God and His purposes.
They
are fully equipped for the warfare of these last days. They will show
forth
the Resurrection power of the Lord Jesus.
You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and
to the
assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge
who is
God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus,
the
mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more
graciously than the blood of Abel.
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be
shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence
and
awe; for our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:22--25, 28, 29)
The Lord is calling us to go up His Holy Mountain with Jesus to gaze
with
unveiled face upon His glory, to enter into His glorious presence, to be
clothed with glory as Jesus was. From there, we will descend into the
valleys
and deserts of the world to manifest His glory, and to minister the love
and
the power of Jesus for the restoration and fulfillment of His purposes
in
this earth.
Edwin Stube
Jay,
From what I believe and from what I am gathering from your teachings,
the
victory and meaning of the Manifest Sons is becoming clearer. What a
mighty
God we serve! I believe that the Manifest Sons are preparing the Bride
yet
strengthening themselves as individuals to do battle for the Bride once
she
is ready to receive her Lord. No one knows the day or the hour the
Bride
will receive, but the time of going against the grain and for suffering
great pain is now. The Manifest Sons need to be "hands-on" instructors
or
trainers - and in the process of preparing the Body they will sharpen
their
own great skills and powers even more. It will be necessary. Attacks
from
every front and from every side and from behind will be relentless. The
Bride will be rocked and shaken, but the outcome will never be in doubt
or
in jeopardy.
Isaiah walked the streets shoeless and naked for three years, warning
the
people of Egypt and of Ethiopia (Isaiah 20:3) that they would be
carried
away into bondage in this manner. Jesus was crucified. The Manifest
Sons
are being persecuted and ridiculed - hmm... Brother of mine, in Christ
there is much suffering. God asks monumental sacrifices of His own
because
He knows that we can take it. He also knows our hearts. This is His
way.
God does not ask of us at this time to pass along doctrine or dogma. He
is
asking much more of the Manifest Sons. He is asking us to give our lives
for
Him. In return, we receive the greater glory that far surpasses
anything
the human mind can conceive. A joy so blissful that it cannot be
received
in the flesh. A wisdom so powerful that only the spirit can obtain.
Jay, you are doing an excellent job of explaining...now reveal the plan
of
action! (smile) I may be jumping the gun here, but it seems to me that
you're planting the seeds for the next move. I sincerely believe that
your
web site and e-mail transmissions are great vehicles for getting the
message
out. If I can be of any help to you in any way, please let me know.
God
has blessed me and He is dealing with me in my everyday life. Anything
I
can do to further His word or His work, I would be more than happy to
oblige. It's all in love!
Bill Caraway
Here is a link to a website which explains the "Manifest Sons Doctrine",
with a few weird little twists thrown in I have never heard of; such as
the
Rapture not existing, Believers thinking that they are Gods, and that
Jesus
is not literally coming back the way Scriptures state! ) Basically this
'Doctrine' if you will, is perceived as Delusion and even Heresy by that
element of 'believers' who are not spirit-filled, do not believe in the
Five-fold Ministry, that Apostles and Prophets exist today, or in any
sort
of spiritual manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Because of this, you
will
see various words and concepts taken literally when they were meant
descriptively or figuratively by the speaker being quoted. It is
interesting.
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain1.htm
As to exactly what the wording 'Manifest Sons of God' may refer to, if
it is
referring to the Apostles and Prophets specifically, or the entire
Five-Fold
Ministry, or whatever: I personally am not going to worry about getting
caught up in the quandary. I believe the Lord will reveal which of
these it
refers to, or if it refers to something else, in His Own Time. I tend
to
think it is in reference to Leadership, whether it be to Apostles and
Prophets or to the entire Five-Fold, but as of yet, I can only say it is
my
opinion. And I would say, most assuredly, that the Remnant Bride is not
yet
fully prepared. As for Unity; of course we should be praying for the
Lord
to make us One. This is, however, the work of the Holy Spirit, and not
anything we are capable of accomplishing on our own, of our own accord.
As
for making snap judgements on whether or not a person is really called
to be
an Apostle, a Prophet or any other of the Five-Fold; I think we need to
relax, turn it over to the Lord, who knows all things when we don't, and
allow others the freedom to be, to speak and to express. The Lord will
reveal in His Own Time; and sometimes He likes to test us out and see
how
well we accept each other. We usually flunk this course. Patience - as
God
is not finished with ANY of us yet is a good motto for all of us to
adopt.
Jay,
I am constantly seeing the hot get hotter and the cold go into a
freezing stand still, which obviously as we all know causes backsliding.
God
gave me a dream, though at the first moments it didn't complete add
up.
The dream: it started at my Mother's house, and I was just sitting down
watching TV and all of a sudden a bobcat and a baby bobcat came out from
behind the entertainment center. I of course to begin with out of panic
was
ready to run, but then I slowly walked and sent a warning. I know it all
sounds weird.
God revealed to me that the Bobcat in the dream represented Satan
and
the Principality in my area. God said that as long as I don't panic that
the Bobcat will not attack because of its own fear of being destroyed.
The
warning I gave in my dream was a false warning, God said clearly
everybody
knows that the Bobcat/Principality is there ready to attack, it is just
that
we can't allow ourselves fear otherwise we lose.
The Spirit of Fear and panic is clearly from Satan.
Jay, I have been so very blessed by this group. I want to thank all of
you, including my very dear friend Carol that I noticed is now writing
to
you. This is a very good way for us to be able to "network" and
"connect"
and I can't begin to tell you how grateful I am to you for this
incredible
labor of love you are doing in the Body of Christ. Truly, your reward is
in
heaven because I know you aren't getting earthly gain from this. It's
obvious by your website you are a gifted and talented person who is
choosing to use what you have to glorify the Lord and to knit together
hearts in this special way. I know you will one day hear those words
"well
done, my GOOD and FAITHFUL servant"....can anything in this world ever
compare to that? LOOK, A RIGHTEOUS KING IS REINING WITH HONEST PRINCES
BY
HIS SIDE AND THE EYES OF ALL HIS PEOPLE WILL TURN AND OPEN WIDE HE
HAS
REFRESHED US AS A RIVER IN A DESERT AND LIKE A SHADOW IN A DRY AND
BARREN
LAND AND THE EARS OF ALL HIS PEOPLE DO HEAR AND UNDERSTAND I am
looking
forward to eternity, to the very awesome place where we will all know
each
other just as we are known with no barriers, boundaries or limits like
time
and space. Could we maybe be getting just a taste of what is coming in
so
much greater measure? May I recommend one very special book for you all
that has blessed me beyond belief....by HENRI NOUWEN....it's called THE
WAY
OF THE HEART. We have the keys of the KINGDOM in our hands, our hearts
and
our souls. They are OURS because WE ARE HIS.....He doesn't lock us out,
we
are HIS children....faith, hope, love....and the GREATEST of these is
LOVE.
Let's use the keys, we can unlock every door, just like JESUS did and
still DOES...DO WE REALLY BELIEVE? isn't that the BOTTOM line? What did
HE
ask Martha right before raising Lazarus from the dead? "DID I NOT TELL
YOU
THAT IF YOU BELIEVE THEN YOU WILL SEE THE GLORY OF GOD?" He said that
even
greater works we will do because HE is gone to be with the FATHER and we
are still here on earth. So many of us. Filled with the SAME spirit
that
raised HIM from the DEAD!!! What do we believe? I am beginning to see
that
there is nothing that is beyond our reach, if ONLY WE ASK and BELIEVE
then
we will SEE the GLORY OF GOD, and I am a Presbyterian, you all, not even
a
Pentecostal or Charismatic or "faith" type church believer. I do know
the
Lord and I hear HIM always because I am seeking HIM always with ALL my
heart. He is so close, just as HE promised to be when we draw near to
HIM,
He is so, so close to us, right inside our hearts, always, forever, just
as
HE promised. This is not religion for me, I guarantee you that, this is
purely REALITY!....I am praying always for you and your family, Jay, and
thanking God for you always as well...looking forward to meeting you
here
or there....God bless you, keep you and shine on you daily! Love, karen
Report on how the Five-Fold is faring:
I live in an area in PA which is predominately Mennonite, or other
old-order
branches. Basically this means 3 things: extreme traditionalism and
regulation, extreme discrimination against women in general, and
specifically women in any sort of leadership, including
ministry-related,
and either totally non-Spirit-filled/Charismatic, or extreme blocking,
quenching, or limiting of the Holy Spirit if they do happen to be
Charismatic. I am accustomed to going it alone; have been born-again,
Charismatic, since early childhood, and throughout childhood and teenage
years, have been the ONLY person ( that I know of ) in churches I
attended
Presbyterian, Methodist, Fundamentalist ) who literally believed in the
Baptism in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, visions, dreams,
miracles,
and the Five-Fold. In my early twenties, I encountered my first
'Charismatic' group, which I attended for a few years. It was a
Mennonite
offshoot which broke away from the control of the traditional church.
They
thought the Five-Fold was possible ( but not really accepting the idea
of
Apostles ), along with gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but
still had the tendency to attempt to 'appoint' their own choices for the
positions, were very leery of women, and generally blocked or controlled
the
moving of the Holy Spirit. After leaving this group, I attended the
large,
semi-Charismatic Mennonite, main church, and two of its other
Charismatic
branches in other areas. Same thing: female discrimination, blocking
and
controlling the Holy Spirit, somewhat open to the Five-Fold, but not
really
buying the existence of Apostles. For a few years after that, I went to
various Charismatic churches in the surrounding area just to check them
out
and get a feel of what their belief and operation consisted of ( and
still
have found nothing I would care to call a 'home church' in my general
area ). Another thing I see is the tendency to try to 'create and
control'
anyone who is called into the Five-Fold, by 'officially' making the
decision
as to whether they should be a member of the Five-Fold, and then
compelling
a 'passed' candidate to attend their own specific training centers ( and
this usually involves quite a cost for the 'training' ). I have also
noticed that 'screened Prophecies' block any Word from the Lord which is
directed at anything negative about the church, the leadership, the
worship,
etc. General Repentance and Revival messages directed toward the
Congregation or Community at large go over big, as do any kind of
totally
positive messages. There are small segments within these churches here
and
there, who are into serious Intercession for Revival and manifestation
of
the Five-Fold, etc. But, overall, too many people seem to be
'tolerating'
too much error and control, and just staying under the surface to avoid
making waves or inflaming family, neighbors and friends. Lord Deliver
us!
RevDeb
Dear Jay
I read your essay on Manifest Sons of God three times over. Very
powerful stuff.
When I come across writings like this I naturally apply it to myself and
my circumstances.
I agree with all you say and thank you for taking such a courageous
stand.
In the five fold ministry I do not think myself as an apostle or
evangelist or prophet or pastor. I would however regard myself as a
teacher. This
has been my secular profession for the past 35 years and I feel that God
has called me now to use my teaching ability to advance His kingdom.
As a teacher it is important that I do not give my students any wrong
information.
Your essay calls on people like myself to network and share ideas. So
may I very briefly outline my thoughts by way of preparation if called
on
to teach?
I teach Civil Engineering so if I had to teach 'Spiritual' Engineering I
think I would have to say that just as in a building there
are foundations, a framework and cladding so likewise in our spiritual
construction the foundations and framework need to clearly defined.
But
the cladding although necessary is less important and there is more room
for flexibility and choice here.
It seems to me that much of the division within the church is over
'cladding' issues and perhaps not enough attention has been given to
foundational and framework truths.
Hence as a teacher my syllabus for the foundations and framework of
Biblical Christianity would cover the following topics.
1.God- a righteous power and intelligence that is eternal with no
beginning and no end.
Well Jay this is a foundation and framework that seems logical to me and
could be backed with scriptures.
But I will not be dogmatic about it. I may have missed out important
parts or included things which ought not to be taught.
In a spirit of love, humility and inquiry I submit this to you as you
have requested.
Leander
">
The Manifest Sons and Babylon
August 13, 2000
RevDeb
Truly agree with these ideas and know they are of God. I am really
happy
that we can have unity on this. One thing God has been dealing with
people
in my town with is Satan. I see the sifting and purging going on as
Satan
attacks one person, God gives first a warning then, depending on whether
the
person falls or stands firm in the Lord, the Lord does accordingly.
Andrew Paul
2.God- the creator , owner and ruler of the Universe which had a
beginning.
3.God- the creator and owner of the Earth
4.God-the designer and creator of all living things
5.God-the Father who desires righteous Sons to share the Universe with.
6.Adam the first Son of God in this present generation of humanity.
(There were previous generations of Sons of God
and the spirits of rebellious ones now roam the Earth awaiting
judgement. The faithful ones are God's angels)
7.All of Adam's descendants have been taken over by spirits of
rebellious sons of God and therefore rightly deserve
to be punished. Noah's Flood was an act of mercy if understood in
terms of God's righteousness
8.Jesus came down to Earth to bear the pain of punishment and free man
from from Satanic bondage and the danger of eternal damnation.
9. People who have truly accepted Jesus are now Sons of God of this
generation.
10.This generation of the Sons of God will manifest themselves more
fully during the end times.
11. The Great Tribulation will manifest more Sons of God and will induce
others to become potential Sons of God.
12. The 1000 year reign of King Jesus on this Earth will be assisted by
the Sons of God from the current generation.
13. After the 1000 years are up the Sons of God will live with their
Father forever on a new Earth and a new Heaven
14. People who have refused sonship will spend eternity away from God
and His sons.
The idea that we are the Manifest Sons is considered foolishness to
those that are not led by the spirit of God. Those of us that are
included in what is described as "we" come from all walks of life, all
branches of the Christian church, all levels of maturity and giftedness
coming together as one to form the last day army of God. Firm direction
and a narrow focus is necessary to be included in this heavenly
congregation according to the spirit of God, not the spirit of man or
the delusions, exclusiveness and false doctrines of denominations.
Restoration in these last days include restoring the power and
simplicity of the early church, building upon what God has taught us in
the last 6000 years and scripturally rebuilding the temple of God. We
are not rebuilding the physical temple that some are waiting for but the
"temple made without hands." The building materials that we are using
for the temple of the New Jerusalem come down from heaven, not from the
earth.
The counterpart to the manifest sons is Babylon herself, it will be
those that have been caught up in this confusion that will do what they
can to hinder the restorative work and come against those that have been
called to it. With God's help, we have discussed much this year of the
false practices that we must separate from. We have discussed the
Nicolaitan spirit as being the separation of clergy and laity. We
recognized that laying on of hands is a foundational doctrine and is
used as a plumb line to identify those with and without the power. We
have identified the oneness doctrine as heretical and hateful and
affirmed the trinity. We understand that no one particular gift can
identify the true church unless it is love. With that we can include the
doctrines that classical Pentecostals have concerning tongues as the
only evidence of the Holy Ghost as being schismatic. We can also include
in that, the idea that the evangelical gift to the exclusion of others
is false. Not only is the religious confusion and ignorance identified
in Babylon but those under the political and economic right wing
insanity that elevates nationalism, the law and order police state and
the luke-warm materialism of the One World Order above God's
righteousness. There has been a call to flee from Babylon and many of us
have but the time is short. Soon there will be a time where it will be
too late to get out and many in the church will be caught up in the
fall.
We have discussed good things, true things, things that have been given
to us by inclining our ears to what the spirit is saying to the
churches. Now listen to what "We" are saying. Below are more good
things. We must understand that to be part of the Bride of Christ and
the harvest is to go through sifting and tribulation first. We are the
sanctified ones to ready the Bride; the Bride is not prepared yet. Our
enemies spread lies about us and satan is right here poised to attack.
Just like building a physical building, we need the foundation and
framework to be true. A plan of action has been called for: this is the
plan - get your loved ones out of Babylon so they can be prepared among
the spotless Bride!!!
Also below is a link to one of the enemies of restoration and revival. I
do not need to go to the site; I have been there and praise God for what
is happening. The Lord's sheep hear the voice of the shepherd, so those
that are led by the spirit of God will see through the lies and
deceptions that groups like this perpetrate on their unsuspecting
victims. The only ones that fall for this kind of stupid reasoning are
those destined to fall with Babylon. It is indeed sad to think that many
are misled by these fundamentalist cults but the good part is that they
are alerting those that are truly led by the Holy Spirit to the glaring
differences to what the Manifest Sons led by God truly stand for against
the confusion of Babylon. We all know that satan will discredit us from
within and without. These heresy hunter cults will look for all the
discrepancies that have ever been committed by those claiming to be part
of the restoration or latter rain movements and focus on any heresy or
false doctrine that any person in the movement has fallen into and
condemn the whole because of its parts. That is like saying that all
Lutherans are false because Martin Luther taught determinism and took
the sacrament out of marriage. These are devil tactics, those with the
spirit of God will see right through them. The fact is that the manifest
sons that will be revealed will be the most orthodox and Bible believing
of any and this will make religious Babylon jealous to the point of
allowing the adversary to take advantage of them out of their own pride
and denial of spiritual power. Let them, they can do us no harm in the
long run except to themselves and those already led by the devil.
Are we through with the manifest sons? Never. We may be through with the
topic, but the concept itself will be the underlying fact that will
motivate us to do all that we can do to promote unity, love and holiness
until Jesus comes for us.
This time, rather than discussion, I would like to hear from you all.
There are many of you from all parts of the world, so let's hear from
you and what it is that you might like to say or discuss. Where are you
from? What is your church background? Where would you like to see this
group going, or where would you like to see yourself going? Please keep
it to one not-so-long paragraph. If you would like to just give us your
name and where you are from, this is good.
I'll be the first:
My name is Jay Atkinson and I am from Stockton, California, USA. My
mother brought me up Baptist but after I was baptized in the Holy
Spirit, I recognized that my giftings and the power of the Holy Spirit
were being taught against in the church. Early on, God started alerting
me to divisions. In the seventies, I spent much of my time in community
service and thrived on controversy. In the eighties, I ended up in
trinitarian Pentecostal Holiness, mostly in the black church and spent
much time in study to prepare for writing. I spent the nineties hardly
ever going to church but deep in study and preparing for my web site on
the computer before there was even a web. I am blessed to be a part of
this group and although content with discussion, I would like to see us
also as an action group. I would like to discuss the idea of whether
"all Christians are saints" or not. I believe that through the cross
that we are justified through faith in Jesus and that we are then to
grow into sanctification. I see myself in the future as continuing what
God started in me with my web site and these discussions, writing a book
someday and being involved in revival.
Now let's hear from you.
Jay
Dear Jay,
a few rambling thoughts:
1. The bride is apparently not dressed and ready until late in the book
of
Revelation, only after the great tribulation (Rev 19:7-8). Why did it
take
so long for her to get dressed? Perhaps because she needed to be
purified
by the crucible of trial and suffering; i.e., the wilderness. (Remember
the multitude greater in number than any one could count who emerge
victorious at the sixth seal having come OUT OF great tribulation and
having washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb?)
Some would say, "How can God do that to His bride?" But how could He do
else? His Son was perfected through His suffering. How else could His
bride be perfected? It is a privilege and an honor and a birthing to
walk
as Jesus walked. All creation is groaning as in birthpains for the
revealing of the sons of God. Are we willing to endure birthpains or
will
we fall away and find our love growing cold? We have not appropriated
the
way of the cross. Our flesh still often runs the show.
2. I see the man-child and the 144,000 firstfruits of Rev 14 as one
and
the same. They mature early and are "snatched up" to the throne of God.
Holy, mature, with authority, and victorious. It is no coincidence that
immediately after their arrival in heaven, satan is booted to earth.
(Remember, Jesus gave His church ALL AUTHORITY over the evil one...and
He
is waiting for His church to rise to that authority!) I don't believe He
is
going to lift a finger beyond what He has already done to overcome satan
until the church acts in the authority she has been given. He has
delegated that authority to the church. (Of course without Him we are
nothing, but "in His name" we have been given all authority to invoke
His
power to overcome the evil one.) Jesus rejoiced after the return of the
70
because He was looking forward in time and seeing His just fledgling
church
mature and rise to the full authority He desired for them...and their
first act upon arrival in heaven is to boot satan out of heaven to
earth!
And on earth satan is overcome by the "rest of the woman's offspring"
who
are themselves brought simultaneously to maturity during the battle.
3. Is your wilderness over?? Answer: are you perfected yet? The
letter
to the church at Thyatira implies that we will be given whatever it
takes
during great tribulation in order to purify us. All the churches will
know
this when it is happening. Those who mature early may qualify as
firstfruits; those who do not will be purified with the refining fires
of
great tribulation as necessary. Salvation is not the issue here.
Perfection is the issue. I believe even those of Thyatira who are
thrown
into great tribulation are thrown there not as punishment but for
redemptive purposes. They are still the church. Glory awaits. He will
have His bride without spot or wrinkle. Apparently the degree of
purification that He desires can be brought forth only through the
process
of great tribulation.
For Him,
Vern Kuenzi
www.restoringthevision.com
Jay, Here are some thoughts on the manifest sons of God. I think I have
much
to say on the subject but haven't got it together yet. Here is my first
effort:
This is the hour for which the whole creation groans as in travail,
awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. Who are the sons of God?
Jesus, the pattern Son, was made perfect through suffering that He might
bring many sons to glory. All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons
of
God. The manifest sons of God are those who have come into God's
presence on
His Holy Mountain. They have entered into His glory and have gone out
into
the world to manifest that glory. Christ is living His life through
them.
They are wholly sanctified, totally committed to God and His purposes.
They
are fully equipped for the warfare of these last days. They will show
forth
the Resurrection power of the Lord Jesus.
You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and
to the
assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge
who is
God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus,
the
mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more
graciously than the blood of Abel.
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be
shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence
and
awe; for our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:22--25, 28, 29)
The Lord is calling us to go up His Holy Mountain with Jesus to gaze
with
unveiled face upon His glory, to enter into His glorious presence, to be
clothed with glory as Jesus was. From there, we will descend into the
valleys
and deserts of the world to manifest His glory, and to minister the love
and
the power of Jesus for the restoration and fulfillment of His purposes
in
this earth.
Edwin Stube
Jay,
From what I believe and from what I am gathering from your teachings,
the
victory and meaning of the Manifest Sons is becoming clearer. What a
mighty
God we serve! I believe that the Manifest Sons are preparing the Bride
yet
strengthening themselves as individuals to do battle for the Bride once
she
is ready to receive her Lord. No one knows the day or the hour the
Bride
will receive, but the time of going against the grain and for suffering
great pain is now. The Manifest Sons need to be "hands-on" instructors
or
trainers - and in the process of preparing the Body they will sharpen
their
own great skills and powers even more. It will be necessary. Attacks
from
every front and from every side and from behind will be relentless. The
Bride will be rocked and shaken, but the outcome will never be in doubt
or
in jeopardy.
Isaiah walked the streets shoeless and naked for three years, warning
the
people of Egypt and of Ethiopia (Isaiah 20:3) that they would be
carried
away into bondage in this manner. Jesus was crucified. The Manifest
Sons
are being persecuted and ridiculed - hmm... Brother of mine, in Christ
there is much suffering. God asks monumental sacrifices of His own
because
He knows that we can take it. He also knows our hearts. This is His
way.
God does not ask of us at this time to pass along doctrine or dogma. He
is
asking much more of the Manifest Sons. He is asking us to give our lives
for
Him. In return, we receive the greater glory that far surpasses
anything
the human mind can conceive. A joy so blissful that it cannot be
received
in the flesh. A wisdom so powerful that only the spirit can obtain.
Jay, you are doing an excellent job of explaining...now reveal the plan
of
action! (smile) I may be jumping the gun here, but it seems to me that
you're planting the seeds for the next move. I sincerely believe that
your
web site and e-mail transmissions are great vehicles for getting the
message
out. If I can be of any help to you in any way, please let me know.
God
has blessed me and He is dealing with me in my everyday life. Anything
I
can do to further His word or His work, I would be more than happy to
oblige. It's all in love!
Bill Caraway
Here is a link to a website which explains the "Manifest Sons Doctrine",
with a few weird little twists thrown in I have never heard of; such as
the
Rapture not existing, Believers thinking that they are Gods, and that
Jesus
is not literally coming back the way Scriptures state! ) Basically this
'Doctrine' if you will, is perceived as Delusion and even Heresy by that
element of 'believers' who are not spirit-filled, do not believe in the
Five-fold Ministry, that Apostles and Prophets exist today, or in any
sort
of spiritual manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Because of this, you
will
see various words and concepts taken literally when they were meant
descriptively or figuratively by the speaker being quoted. It is
interesting.
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain1.htm
As to exactly what the wording 'Manifest Sons of God' may refer to, if
it is
referring to the Apostles and Prophets specifically, or the entire
Five-Fold
Ministry, or whatever: I personally am not going to worry about getting
caught up in the quandary. I believe the Lord will reveal which of
these it
refers to, or if it refers to something else, in His Own Time. I tend
to
think it is in reference to Leadership, whether it be to Apostles and
Prophets or to the entire Five-Fold, but as of yet, I can only say it is
my
opinion. And I would say, most assuredly, that the Remnant Bride is not
yet
fully prepared. As for Unity; of course we should be praying for the
Lord
to make us One. This is, however, the work of the Holy Spirit, and not
anything we are capable of accomplishing on our own, of our own accord.
As
for making snap judgements on whether or not a person is really called
to be
an Apostle, a Prophet or any other of the Five-Fold; I think we need to
relax, turn it over to the Lord, who knows all things when we don't, and
allow others the freedom to be, to speak and to express. The Lord will
reveal in His Own Time; and sometimes He likes to test us out and see
how
well we accept each other. We usually flunk this course. Patience - as
God
is not finished with ANY of us yet is a good motto for all of us to
adopt.
Jay,
I am constantly seeing the hot get hotter and the cold go into a
freezing stand still, which obviously as we all know causes backsliding.
God
gave me a dream, though at the first moments it didn't complete add
up.
The dream: it started at my Mother's house, and I was just sitting down
watching TV and all of a sudden a bobcat and a baby bobcat came out from
behind the entertainment center. I of course to begin with out of panic
was
ready to run, but then I slowly walked and sent a warning. I know it all
sounds weird.
God revealed to me that the Bobcat in the dream represented Satan
and
the Principality in my area. God said that as long as I don't panic that
the Bobcat will not attack because of its own fear of being destroyed.
The
warning I gave in my dream was a false warning, God said clearly
everybody
knows that the Bobcat/Principality is there ready to attack, it is just
that
we can't allow ourselves fear otherwise we lose.
The Spirit of Fear and panic is clearly from Satan.
Jay, I have been so very blessed by this group. I want to thank all of
you, including my very dear friend Carol that I noticed is now writing
to
you. This is a very good way for us to be able to "network" and
"connect"
and I can't begin to tell you how grateful I am to you for this
incredible
labor of love you are doing in the Body of Christ. Truly, your reward is
in
heaven because I know you aren't getting earthly gain from this. It's
obvious by your website you are a gifted and talented person who is
choosing to use what you have to glorify the Lord and to knit together
hearts in this special way. I know you will one day hear those words
"well
done, my GOOD and FAITHFUL servant"....can anything in this world ever
compare to that? LOOK, A RIGHTEOUS KING IS REINING WITH HONEST PRINCES
BY
HIS SIDE AND THE EYES OF ALL HIS PEOPLE WILL TURN AND OPEN WIDE HE
HAS
REFRESHED US AS A RIVER IN A DESERT AND LIKE A SHADOW IN A DRY AND
BARREN
LAND AND THE EARS OF ALL HIS PEOPLE DO HEAR AND UNDERSTAND I am
looking
forward to eternity, to the very awesome place where we will all know
each
other just as we are known with no barriers, boundaries or limits like
time
and space. Could we maybe be getting just a taste of what is coming in
so
much greater measure? May I recommend one very special book for you all
that has blessed me beyond belief....by HENRI NOUWEN....it's called THE
WAY
OF THE HEART. We have the keys of the KINGDOM in our hands, our hearts
and
our souls. They are OURS because WE ARE HIS.....He doesn't lock us out,
we
are HIS children....faith, hope, love....and the GREATEST of these is
LOVE.
Let's use the keys, we can unlock every door, just like JESUS did and
still DOES...DO WE REALLY BELIEVE? isn't that the BOTTOM line? What did
HE
ask Martha right before raising Lazarus from the dead? "DID I NOT TELL
YOU
THAT IF YOU BELIEVE THEN YOU WILL SEE THE GLORY OF GOD?" He said that
even
greater works we will do because HE is gone to be with the FATHER and we
are still here on earth. So many of us. Filled with the SAME spirit
that
raised HIM from the DEAD!!! What do we believe? I am beginning to see
that
there is nothing that is beyond our reach, if ONLY WE ASK and BELIEVE
then
we will SEE the GLORY OF GOD, and I am a Presbyterian, you all, not even
a
Pentecostal or Charismatic or "faith" type church believer. I do know
the
Lord and I hear HIM always because I am seeking HIM always with ALL my
heart. He is so close, just as HE promised to be when we draw near to
HIM,
He is so, so close to us, right inside our hearts, always, forever, just
as
HE promised. This is not religion for me, I guarantee you that, this is
purely REALITY!....I am praying always for you and your family, Jay, and
thanking God for you always as well...looking forward to meeting you
here
or there....God bless you, keep you and shine on you daily! Love, karen
Report on how the Five-Fold is faring:
I live in an area in PA which is predominately Mennonite, or other
old-order
branches. Basically this means 3 things: extreme traditionalism and
regulation, extreme discrimination against women in general, and
specifically women in any sort of leadership, including
ministry-related,
and either totally non-Spirit-filled/Charismatic, or extreme blocking,
quenching, or limiting of the Holy Spirit if they do happen to be
Charismatic. I am accustomed to going it alone; have been born-again,
Charismatic, since early childhood, and throughout childhood and teenage
years, have been the ONLY person ( that I know of ) in churches I
attended
Presbyterian, Methodist, Fundamentalist ) who literally believed in the
Baptism in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, visions, dreams,
miracles,
and the Five-Fold. In my early twenties, I encountered my first
'Charismatic' group, which I attended for a few years. It was a
Mennonite
offshoot which broke away from the control of the traditional church.
They
thought the Five-Fold was possible ( but not really accepting the idea
of
Apostles ), along with gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but
still had the tendency to attempt to 'appoint' their own choices for the
positions, were very leery of women, and generally blocked or controlled
the
moving of the Holy Spirit. After leaving this group, I attended the
large,
semi-Charismatic Mennonite, main church, and two of its other
Charismatic
branches in other areas. Same thing: female discrimination, blocking
and
controlling the Holy Spirit, somewhat open to the Five-Fold, but not
really
buying the existence of Apostles. For a few years after that, I went to
various Charismatic churches in the surrounding area just to check them
out
and get a feel of what their belief and operation consisted of ( and
still
have found nothing I would care to call a 'home church' in my general
area ). Another thing I see is the tendency to try to 'create and
control'
anyone who is called into the Five-Fold, by 'officially' making the
decision
as to whether they should be a member of the Five-Fold, and then
compelling
a 'passed' candidate to attend their own specific training centers ( and
this usually involves quite a cost for the 'training' ). I have also
noticed that 'screened Prophecies' block any Word from the Lord which is
directed at anything negative about the church, the leadership, the
worship,
etc. General Repentance and Revival messages directed toward the
Congregation or Community at large go over big, as do any kind of
totally
positive messages. There are small segments within these churches here
and
there, who are into serious Intercession for Revival and manifestation
of
the Five-Fold, etc. But, overall, too many people seem to be
'tolerating'
too much error and control, and just staying under the surface to avoid
making waves or inflaming family, neighbors and friends. Lord Deliver
us!
RevDeb
Dear Jay
I read your essay on Manifest Sons of God three times over. Very
powerful stuff.
When I come across writings like this I naturally apply it to myself and
my circumstances.
I agree with all you say and thank you for taking such a courageous
stand.
In the five fold ministry I do not think myself as an apostle or
evangelist or prophet or pastor. I would however regard myself as a
teacher. This
has been my secular profession for the past 35 years and I feel that God
has called me now to use my teaching ability to advance His kingdom.
As a teacher it is important that I do not give my students any wrong
information.
Your essay calls on people like myself to network and share ideas. So
may I very briefly outline my thoughts by way of preparation if called
on
to teach?
I teach Civil Engineering so if I had to teach 'Spiritual' Engineering I
think I would have to say that just as in a building there
are foundations, a framework and cladding so likewise in our spiritual
construction the foundations and framework need to clearly defined.
But
the cladding although necessary is less important and there is more room
for flexibility and choice here.
It seems to me that much of the division within the church is over
'cladding' issues and perhaps not enough attention has been given to
foundational and framework truths.
Hence as a teacher my syllabus for the foundations and framework of
Biblical Christianity would cover the following topics.
1.God- a righteous power and intelligence that is eternal with no
beginning and no end.
Well Jay this is a foundation and framework that seems logical to me and
could be backed with scriptures.
But I will not be dogmatic about it. I may have missed out important
parts or included things which ought not to be taught.
In a spirit of love, humility and inquiry I submit this to you as you
have requested.
Leander
August 13, 2000
RevDeb
Truly agree with these ideas and know they are of God. I am really
happy
that we can have unity on this. One thing God has been dealing with
people
in my town with is Satan. I see the sifting and purging going on as
Satan
attacks one person, God gives first a warning then, depending on whether
the
person falls or stands firm in the Lord, the Lord does accordingly.
Andrew Paul
2.God- the creator , owner and ruler of the Universe which had a
beginning.
3.God- the creator and owner of the Earth
4.God-the designer and creator of all living things
5.God-the Father who desires righteous Sons to share the Universe with.
6.Adam the first Son of God in this present generation of humanity.
(There were previous generations of Sons of God
and the spirits of rebellious ones now roam the Earth awaiting
judgement. The faithful ones are God's angels)
7.All of Adam's descendants have been taken over by spirits of
rebellious sons of God and therefore rightly deserve
to be punished. Noah's Flood was an act of mercy if understood in
terms of God's righteousness
8.Jesus came down to Earth to bear the pain of punishment and free man
from from Satanic bondage and the danger of eternal damnation.
9. People who have truly accepted Jesus are now Sons of God of this
generation.
10.This generation of the Sons of God will manifest themselves more
fully during the end times.
11. The Great Tribulation will manifest more Sons of God and will induce
others to become potential Sons of God.
12. The 1000 year reign of King Jesus on this Earth will be assisted by
the Sons of God from the current generation.
13. After the 1000 years are up the Sons of God will live with their
Father forever on a new Earth and a new Heaven
14. People who have refused sonship will spend eternity away from God
and His sons.Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
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