Many Will Come In My Name

May 9, 2001

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:6

Jesus did tell His disciples that it was not for them "to know the times or the seasons" and has been used to suggest that these words are meant for our generation as well. There are many competing voices in these last days clamoring for an equal voice. Basically what these discussions are about are to bring these voices into the open and try to harmonize them according to the spirit of truth. Jesus told us in Matthew 24:33, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." The sun will be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, the stars shall fall from heaven, the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, there will be earthquakes, wars, the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. We may not know the hour but we should be able to know when the hour is near. The Lord reveals things to His prophets before He does them, our generation should be no different. God told Daniel to "shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days," but then told John to "seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

In that Jesus is coming soon is only my opinion but others hold it also and we must confine our discussions to those that are getting ready. Why anyone would disagree with these things or deny them as being in the future would want to be a part of this discussion is something that they will have to answer to me personally. If our discussions have nothing actively to do with them, they have already made their point, we need to go on with the revelation that we are a part of what God is doing in these last days or we have nothing to discuss.

What we learn from the responses this time is that there will be heresy in the last days, it has been with us from the beginning and we are told that many false prophets will arise to deceive many, if possible, even the elect. We are in the age of apostasy now. Paul wrote to Timothy that in "the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils," that has been true throughout church history but Peter tells us "that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts." We should not be surprised when we see these things but we must be alert. At the same time, none of us have all the answers so latitude should be given.

The bottom line then, is that we must ALL have a humble and teachable spirit. We must accept that we do not know it all, so we cannot fault those that do not know it all either. We can however, fault those that think they already know it all and would come up with interpretations that would prevent us from coming to the truth or dissuade us from the truth that we have already received. There will be mistakes made and false assumptions, but if we do not have the freedom to make assumptions, then there would not be correct assumptions made either. If we can approach end-time discussions or any discussion with the humility expected of this group, it does not matter if we do not come up with correct conclusions right now for there is still time remaining. The closer we get to the last day, the more God will be revealing to us. What does matter is that we are able to freely bring forth our proposals onto the Lord's Table and rest upon His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Only when the glory of the Lord is revealed shall we all be able to see it at the same time and know for sure. I know that liberal open-mindedness is a virtue accepted only by a loving fellowship, not a totalitarian one. In knowing these things, I hope to pass onto you a certain degree of tolerance for the opinions of others.

Heresy is something completely different in that it must not be tolerated, never allowed an equal voice in discussion and cast out of our presence as the evil influence that it is. Heresy is like demon possession; the more it festers and flourishes from within, the more destructive it becomes. Loving each other means that we do not welcome demonic influences but rather protect ourselves from them and do what we can to recognize them at once and then to cast them from our midst. I may have been too hasty in treating schismatics the same way but division is a sore spot for me, I am called to unity. I am criticized for taking Catholics off who want us all to be Catholics or Protestants who want us all to be Protestants. Forgive me.

What I am looking for now in the next edition of the latter rain list is discussion of the end being near. How many of us truly believe in that? We have heard from those that believe that the end-time scenarios that have been described in the Old and New Testaments have already come to pass, now what of those that believe that we are in the last days of this age and there is the tribulation and a new thousand year period of peace and justice coming very soon. We already know that Jesus has been with us through His Holy Spirit for the last two thousand years, we already know that we have entered into His spiritual kingdom already and that He is already reigning in our hearts. Now what are some of the opinions concerning the future Second Coming regardless of any past fulfillments?

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:7

We are taught that there are dual fulfillments in that the Old Testament is given as examples for us. The feasts of Israel represent Christian experiences: the Passover in salvation, Pentecost in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Feast of Tabernacles to come to unify us. And what of Elijah? Jesus told us that there was a dual fulfillment in the coming of Elijah. He told us that "Elias truly shall first come, (future) and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already" (past) in the form of John the Baptist. There will be a forerunner in the second coming as well as in the first. I have already made some premises the last time that some did not like, one more is that the restoration has not already happened in the past and that we are called to do it as the living stones of the temple. You are welcome to observe, participate and even disagree, but if you are not part of this premise, I wish that you would leave us alone to do our work without trying to interfere. It is a waste of your time and ours. Discussion is one thing but opposition through derision is another.

Great discussions this time, not everyone agrees but that is just fine with me, we do not have to at this point. What I have written here is not complete without reading what we discussed below. You may also like to take time to read what we had done before with the Babylon question at .


And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24

Brother Jay,

Interesting post at an interesting time in my studies. I recently joined a preterist discussion list. Obviously, your entire post is a refutation of preterism (past fulfilled prophecy with 70 A.D. the focal point). I have always been a futurist and still am, though the preterists make some very good points. First, there is no doubt about it...the Book of Revelation was written before 70 A.D., probably around 56-64 A.D. I will just say that there is MUCH strong evidence to support this, both in reason and in the New Testament itself. The single biggest factor separating futurism and preterism is the idea of duel fulfillment. Preterists say that duel fulfillment is a futurist fairy tale and that there is no precedent in scripture for it. As for futurism, it literally hinges on the idea of duel fulfillment of key passages, especially in the Olivet discourse. take away duel fulfillment and futurism crumbles to the ground or is so drastically altered that it would be unrecognizable. Preterists claim that futurism is a money maker to the Hal Lindsey's, who write one sequel to The Late-Great Planet Earth after another, and the Tim LaHayes who do likewise. They call futurism Van Impeism, claiming that Jack is just another prophetic pundit who has cranked out one tribulation video too many. I actually agree very much with some of the things they say. Preterists claim that there paradigm is the only one that is exegetically sound and the only one to have any coherence concerning the time statements, such as "at hand", "near", and "this generation", etc...

Well, that's my contribution to the discussion. Your feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks and God bless!

In Christ,


Hi Dan,

Can you give me the NT evidence that you speak of to prove that the book of revelation was written when you say it is here. And to what "reason" also that you mention. And why you think that there is no doubt about it.





As I said, there is much evidence showing that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Surely the destruction of the temple would have been referred to by John the Revelator had it occurred before he wrote the book of Revelation. The destruction of the temple meant the END of the Old system of sacrifice, which Paul said in Hebrews was "about to pass away". The destruction of the temple was HUGE, and would surely have been alluded to in Revelation. Yet, John prophesied of the temple's destruction and the city of Jerusalem - Rev.11, 17,18.

In II Cor.12:1-3, Paul is speaking of John the Revelator no doubt, who was "caught up to the third heaven". Paul says, "In such an one will I boast", clearly meaning that he was NOT speaking of himself, as many teach. II Corinthians was written around 55 A.D. (I believe), so Paul most likely had already read the book of Revelation which John had written. This means the that Revelation was probably written as early as 45 A.D., not 90-95 A.D., as most study Bibles will tell you.

There is much more evidence. I would suggest you tap into some of the preterist web pages on the Internet, as they have some VERY GOOD research on this subject.

In Christ,
P.S. - Let me know what you think after studying the preterist research on this subject. It's very interesting!


Hi Dan,

I must admit that I do find these things interesting as well, especially in that the temple is mentioned in Revelation 11. But I have to say that pointing to the date of John's visions as being before the destruction of the temple from these verses are assumptions, not evidence. We (as a futurist group) believe that the prophecies concerning the restoration of the temple in the Old Testament and the New are pointing to that dual fulfillment that preterists deny. We will not witness the destruction of the temple in this generation but the restoration, it is already in shambles. When Jesus talks about making this temple on the third day, we understand this not only to be a fulfillment of His physical body in the first century but His spiritual body and being the third day of 1000 year periods and we are at the beginning of that third day now.

The 11th chapter deals not with the destruction of Jerusalem but in the re-construction of God's spiritual temple and the tribulation to come. Anyone can invent the two witness as coming in any given time in history or spiritualize them into entities but I believe that this is in the last days (these last days) and only the worshippers within the temple are to be measured. That has nothing to do with literal stones but in living stones. Jerusalem is to go through similar circumstances but the old fulfillments were given as examples to us. Many of the prophecies concerning Israel deal with the Christian church, something that is also denied by some. I just happen to believe it for it fits current situations, my study of the Bible and it is reasonable to me as well as spiritual. I believe it is a mistake to treat apocalyptic revelation as having only literal fulfillment. Many of them are like parables for us and must be interpreted by those that are listening to God's voice and not in isolated personal interpretations. There are many competing voices in these last days clamoring for attention to their ways of thinking.

I appreciate your input here. You seem to be suggesting however that Jerusalem is Babylon in Rev. 17 & 18 which I do not see. They may in fact be part of it but in no way do I see complete fulfillment there, they do not have the political and economic clout any more than Rome does now, no matter how much their influence is dispersed.

I have looked at some of the preterist arguments and find them scholarly and much truth found there. But to take fulfillment of scripture and past truth to deny fulfillment to come that denies the second coming in the future is in my view a deception and based upon half truth. These things are not essential or heretical, so you are free to think the same things about what I believe. These fulfillments are proof of prophecy fulfilled but I just think that there is more fulfillment to come and it is important for all of us to be ready, fill our lamps with the oil of the Holy Ghost and restore the temple "made without hands."



Hi Jay,

Thanks for your reply concerning Bible prophecy i.e. the temple, Jerusalem, etc..

I am basically where you are at with Bible prophecy, but not a traditional futurist. Even before I had read any preterist teaching, I was completely convinced and still am that the whore of Rev.17 & 18 is none other than Jerusalem. 18:24 settles it, for in no other city is found "the blood of prophets". Neither Rome, ancient Babylon, not the Catholic Church (all popular interpretations) killed one prophet. But Jesus said, "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets.." (Lk.13:34-35). Many other verses could be given to prove that Jerusalem was guilty of killing all the prophets. Jesus warned Jerusalem that it would be destroyed for doing so, and in 70 A.D. that is exactly what happened.

Rev.17:18 identifies the whore/Babylon the great as "that great city". Using the same book to interpret the language, we find "the great city" mentioned in 11:8, where it is referring to none other than Jerusalem "where also our Lord was crucified".

Though I believe as you that we can glean multiple principles from Revelation by which the Church can live by today, I do NOT believe in multiple identifications of the whore/Babylon the great.

Since Revelation 17 & 18 were no doubt fulfilled to the letter in the first century, the question always boils down to whether or not "duel fulfillment" is a valid scriptural principle. Preterists argue that it is NOT a valid principle, saying "If a second fulfillment, why not a third, fourth, etc.. as needed?" In 18:20, it says, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." If this avenging by God on Jerusalem for the apostles and prophets sake occurred in 70 A.D., which it definitely did, then are we to assume it will happen again??? Surely not. Preterists argue that there is no NEED for a second fulfillment.

Hence, I am not a traditional futurist, meaning that I am convinced that the traditional "late-great" futurist scenario is somewhat fictional. The 3 1/2 year great tribulation was fulfilled precisely in the Jewish War of 66-70 A.D. Another installment to come??...I'm not so sure.


Dear Jay

I agree with your views. the New World Order is already here but many cannot see it. Like yourself I was given a vision three years ago, of my soul entering the heavenly Jerusalem. It is this assurance that keeps me going today. Because like yourself if one was to look around the state of affairs of the world will almost break your heart.

The key to peace is Meshiah and the union of the Jews and Christians or the (Torah and Grace). This was known to the romans and early Popes who severed the link by putting enmity between the two. This is still the case today. Hence the Whore of Babylon in Rev:17 is the Roman Church, the heart of the New World Order.

Blessed be his name.

Hi Jay, your writings amount transmillenillism are much appreciated. One of my close friends is into that stuff and I haven't read enough about it to really argue what seems to be obvious conflicts in Scripture like the ones you mentioned from Matt 24. I always believed there were 3 questions there and 3 answers hence the destruction of the temple and the yet to come "end".

I love your love for truth......
Paul Weigel


Psalm 139 1-7

O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. You hem me in--behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain. Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and the end will come.

[3] Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. Dan. 12

1JN 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. [5] They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. [6] We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

"There is no where that anyone can hide from Me. From the early morning, and through the night watches, I AM aware of everything that is going on. Why would anyone want to hide from Me-- there is no where, no where on this earth, anyone can hide. There are some who would want to hide from my presence. There will come a time when I will not always strive with man. I will continue to hold out the word of faith. I will continue to speak to him through my spirit."

"I have sent my missionaries, and my word has gone out to the ends of the earth. I have said that my word would go out unto the ends of the earth, and so it has, from India unto the congo of Africa, from Indonesia unto Pakistan. It has been sent out. It has gone out unto all who would hear it."

"I have mentioned in my word that these things will happen before my return. But I would say, to continue, continue doing the work that I've asked each of you to do. But this word must not be mixed with anything, it must be pure and undefiled. How else will they be able to be saved? Can an idea, an empty philosophy, bring salvation to those who hear it? Surely it cannot. So, to those who go out unto the ends of the earth, I say, let my word be spoken in all of its power, in all of its promises, in all of its truth. Then those who hear it will be changed. For it is only through my word and through my spirit that man would be changed on the inside. But even as my word would go out unto the ends of the earth, the doors of opportunity will not always be open. These things will reach a turning point in the summer of the year 2002. My favor has gone out to those who have given my word unto the ends of the earth. For there will not always be favorable atmosphere. I have asked you to work while there is light, but the night quickly approaches. And while it is true that I have called you to be lights in a dark world, there are strategic times to do things. Know the times and know the seasons. For it has been a time and a season for speaking my word unto the ends of the earth."

"But I AM saying that evil will intensify and will grow in its deviousness. But even as the darkest night is dark, the stars fill the sky. They shine brightly against the backdrop of it, and you are my stars shining brightly in this hour. Shine brightly so that all would see my light in you. Do not let the spirit of the anti-christ blow your light out. His spirit has been at work for some time now. Hold out the word of truth in this hour. Use the sword of the spirit and use it against the enemy, and fight with it. Then you will triumph over him. But do not be ignorant of his devices. For I have called you to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Even as I AM greater than he is, so is my spirit that resides in you. Be wise in this hour, my people. Carry the torch that I've placed within you. Let it be a torch that illuminates and shows you the way."

"This is the last hour, my people, and I have said that these things will intensify, but you are to stand tall in Me. A wise warrior always has his armor ready to put on."

Stephen Hanson

A book has been published by Word Publishing in Nashville. The title of the book is Mind Siege. The book has joint authors Tim Lahaye, author of the Left Behind fiction series and David Noebel, head of Summit Ministries.

These authors are calling Christians everywhere, specially in America, to wake up and exercise their rights to believe and behave as bible based Christians. As we all know and as is pointed out in the book, Christianity has been silenced in our schools and driven from the public arena. From the standpoint of this ministry I would like to add that immorality condemned in the bible is now widely practiced and condoned by laws and the media at large. Various minority groups have lobbied very hard in Canada and the United States and even the United Nations so that general acceptance is given to these immoral practices. Some are going to the extreme and are trying to bring in governmental legislation that will label the bible as hate literature because it identifies those engaged in these immoral practices. They feel this is discriminatory and of the nature of hate literature because it singles out minority groups and speaks harshly of them resulting in harm - so they claim. They claim that to even suggest that their behavior is immoral is an opinion that has no basis and cannot be spoken in public because it is a harmful opinion. They then make the whole issue a civil rights issue. Once they have entrenched their rights into laws then they can openly and actively propagate their view of morality and pleasure even to the point carrying their views and conduct into the school system and churches. So we are witnessing an ironic social development where Christian based laws and institutions were initially set up to ensure tolerance for all within a Christian nation to a transition in these laws and institutions where Christianity is singled out as the enemy of human rights in a nation of peoples who do what ever they can get away with in their promotion of self gain and pursuit of physical pleasures. This situation has in turn escalated into the breakdown of family values, church attendance, and the right of Christians to have the same rights as others, the right to believe and behave and speak about their beliefs and moral values and to influence society in the same way as do these minority groups. It is a subtle form of persecution against Christians.

But as the book Mind Siege points out there is a conspiracy at work here. The authors insist that the conflict is between the biblical Christian and the Secular Humanist world views. The book provides details showing that Secular Humanists have been working systematically for many years to first discredit Christianity and second to infiltrate government, social institutions, school systems - public and university, and churches in order to occupy positions of authority and the making of laws. To discredit biblical Christianity they must provide alternatives like evolution and in the name of science denounce any Christian influences that do not aid their ultimate cause. Most Humanists, the book indicates, are not scientists, they simply try to masquerade behind science to get rid of the Christian influences. They promote a moral code condemned in the bible, so they must also take measure to discredit the bible. And so it goes. This is a battle for our minds, a war to decide whether out thoughts will be shaped by the "wisdom of men" like Marx, Darwin, Freud, and Neitzche, and many others like them, or by the wisdom of God as revealed in the bible.

Another interesting point made by the book is that Humanists belong to the "Humanist religion". Yes, its true that "Humanism" is declared as a religion and recognized so by government. This is so stated in the last 3 humanist manifestos. It would be wise for everyone to examine the names on these manifestos, then it becomes more than evident just how widespread is this religion that masquerades as science and how its members have penetrated the school systems, universities, publishing, and many many other areas of influence. What is most ironic is that members of the humanist religion were instrumental in establishing laws that prevented prayers and the reading of the bible in public schools and institutions. They are simply, carefully and systematically replacing one religion for another. The humanist religion, according to the book Mind Siege is characterized by a pleasure seeking mentality that worships the human mind and believes that all human problems must be solved by the human mind and not a fictional Divine Being.

Even this dialogue in this bulletin can be construed by some to be hate literature because it attacks another religion, the registered religion of "humanism". This is more so the case in Canada than in the USA because free speech is not as treasured as it is in America. Unfortunately humanists can via the newspapers, the magazines and other media openly harass, malign, and publicly criticize bible based Christianity and even supporting institutions and churches. But if the opposite were to happen the humanist claims fowl play and brings up civil rights issues and laws. In fact, in Canada, a bible based Christian magazine that reports new events was recently taken to court in a legal action and has spent to-date $20,000.00 in lawyer costs over a false "hate statement" associated with a minority group. The magazine will eventually win the court proceedings as it made no such "hate statement" but legal fees will have cost them many times that initial amount and then they will be again attacked. There is no law that protects this publisher from such harassment. It is a form of punishment administered in order to teach the magazine company never to mention that minority group in any way as viewed by that minority group as non complimentary. Sue first is allowed and it cannot help but affect, by this kind of intimidation, what that magazine is prepared to say in the future.

Humanists world wide are attempting to create both a global world government as well as a global world religion. Their very argument of separation of state and religion, which has been used to scare Christians away from political involvement, is exactly what they are up to. How best to control the human mind than by containing it in a religious environment under their governmental control. It is common knowledge and an often used mass psychology practice to control the "mobs" by controlling their environment. By "booting out" Christian influences from the school system, from the work environment, and from leading institutions that train the professionals, and by creating immense social pressure against bible based Christians through ridicule, lies, and other defamatory means, and by changing laws, these humanists from their various positions of leadership in government, justice, education, and municipal politics have created an environment that threatens, intimidates, and preoccupies the Christian. Long sentence. Read it again. It appears that the average so called Christian soaks up this "carnal" self seeking pleasure and gratification with the things of the world and loses focus as to what their religion is all about. Caught in a cross fire of fear, threats, intimidation and lust, and pursuit of the "mighty" dollar, the bottom line of most business operations, the average Christian even doubts the fundamentals of their belief system. The average Christian is being manipulated without even knowing it. The reigns of power are with the humanist writing from the local paper or an international magazine, or reporting from the TV or from a public official maligning a Christian opponent. These professing Christians have become drugged with the environmental influences controlled by the humanist who laughs at the stupidity of the so-called Christian as they exercise their wiles and ways to control the progress of society.

And while all this is happening bible based believers that do oppose this situation work to show that evolution has been misrepresented as it is not scientifically demonstrable. Nor does it meet any of the scientific criteria. Many of the findings that were introduced to convince people that evolution was a correct theory were blatant misrepresentations and lies. Several museum exhibits that provided a substantial link between points in the so-called evolution chain have been discovered to be fakes put there by those more interested in humanism than in truth. Certainly not scientists. Other findings have been covered up so as not to disclose evidence that present day man existed long before a time that evolutionists would be comfortable with. But with all these disclosures we do not see government reversing any of the laws that discriminated against Christianity. Why would that be? Nevertheless, whether evolution has been legitimately presented to the world is a separate issue from a Global New World Order sought after by these humanists. But this quick coverage does indicate how evolution and science has been used to foster a belief away from the authority of God towards a belief based on the worship of the mind of man. This is the Anti Christ strategy to defeat Christianity. Discredit, cause doubt, disgrace, and remove all influences of Christianity.

But while this is all happening those fierce fighters of biblical truth are being attacked from the rear as they make progress with their frontal attack. What condition in Christianity made it possible for these humanists to make any progress at all? Please think about this? What condition? The condition was neglect of the Body of Christ. Yes that is right, plain old neglect! Jesus commanded that we love one another. That love is to be expressed as a oneness between believers, even as Jesus Christ was one with the Father. Think about that for a minute. Think about just how profound such a oneness would be if it were truly manifest between Christians. If we love God we are to love one another and if we love one another there is no break in our unity. The many souls that make up the body of Christ, if they indeed have the love of God manifest in their being should be as one soul, of common accord, working together, supporting each other, resolving disputes according to love not according to schism.

Christians who have received the Holy Spirit from the Father as sent to them by Jesus Christ are to love one another. One of the key purposes of the Holy Spirit is to bind with the spirit of the believer and join all believers together in a Divine fellowship of believers. One with God and one with each other. Christians are to regularly experience an intimacy of sharing which is collaborative and caring and builds faith, where each believer shares their experience with God and problems, where each believer leads the other forward in their experience with God according to their gifts and abilities as given them by God. As such one believer edifies the other. Participating with each other, regardless of denomination, each believer works at maintaining the Body of Christ in this state of intimate sharing. Denominational thinking does not lend itself to this maintaining as described. Denominations are the result of schism, dissention, strong doctrinal differences, all of which tear apart and separate believers. Believers seeking separation before seeking reconciliation are demonstrating a form of lust and are motivated by fear and if fear is present then love is not and vice versa. The evidence to the world that God is manifest in us collectively as the Body of Christ is that we love one another. If we love one another then there should be no schism as any problems can be solved in a loving way and eventually worked out. Unity then is the evidence of love. No unity is the evidence of lust and fear. But that unity is so much more than an organizational unity, it is the intimate collaborated sharing spoke of earlier. Organizational unity is just that. But unity of loving souls is what the Body of Christ is all about. To evade that issue is to be disobedient to the Holy Spirit.

It is the issue of unity and Divine fellowship of the saints that has made Christianity susceptible to the wiles, whims, and ways of the humanist who serves the Anti Christ. We must look here first or doctrinal issues will always keep us separated and in fear. Faith with out action/works, Prayer without actions/works, talk without the walk, that is the problem. What percentage of a Christians day is spent so communing with another Christian regardless of denomination? That small figure says it all!!! Who can care about prophecy, about doctrines, about organization, until they have the maintenance of the Body of Christ issue resolved. Neglect started this and is totally unacceptable to God. And once that loving relationship between believers is back in place, down with humanism, automatically for it cannot survive such a body of believers that speak and think of one accord.

Ted Hilts

A WARNING. Sufficiently impressive, one might think, but strangely disregarded. At all times in the history of Christianity there have been men who pointed to the immediate coming of Christ, with particularity of time and place; at all times they have had deluded followers, and the shame of repeated disappointment seems to be no hindrance.

It was an almost universal expectation in Western Europe when Christendom reached the eve of its thousandth year that the end of the world was coming. People shut their shops, left the crops to rot in the fields, broke off from family relations, and gathered in stricken bands to wait the dread appearing. The sensation of sheer terror probably never reached such a height in this world as when the ebbing moments of the fated year ran out to its close.

The wilder follies of this kind of prediction hardly call for explanation ; but there were---and their still are---men of a very different stamp, men of unquestionable piety, men of considerable learning, devoting themselves to studies of the same kind ; they earnestly desire the coming of the Lord, and they try to ascertain its approach in the very way which the Lord Himself discouraged ; 'It is not for you to know the times or the seasons.' The unavailing search goes on continuously. How shall we account for it?

There was in the days of the gospel a vague expectation, hope or fear, of a great catastrophe which should usher in the Kingdom of God. This was general ; but some reduced the vagueness to precise detail, and wrote exact predictions of varied character. Their writings were what we now call eschatological, teaching about the end of the world. The Lord Jesus, in declaring that the Kingdom of God was at hand---which is the first meaning of the gospel, the Good News---did not brush aside these expectations, or even these predictions. He made us of them as imagery of the truth which He had to impart. There was no difficulty about this for one who habitually taught by parables. But we must remind ourselves that almost all the disciples of our Lord had been in the habit of taking that imagery as reality, an exact description of things that were actually going to happen. The result was that two currents of thought continued to run side by side. To take a familiar example, the imagery is treated as prediction of actual fact in the First Epistle to the Thessalonians : 'The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first : then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord.' The writer of that description was perhaps Silvanus, St. Paul's companion, but it was written with St. paul's approval ; and five or six years afterwards something of the same sort was written, with greater sobriety, in the First epistle to the Corinthians, which was certainly St. Paul's own. But along side of this we also find something of a different kind ; not prediction of an end to come, but recognition of an end that has arrived. The stories of the Old Testament were written, says St. Paul, 'for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.' That became the conviction of the Apostolic Church. 'Little children, it is the last time,' wrote St. John. Nope, what he wrote is more emphatic : 'It is the latest hour.' This way of looking at the end finds its completion in the Book of the Revelation of John. The sense of the book is that there is much yet to happen, but that even now it is the time of the end ; the judgments is set, and the books are opened.

How did the Church come to this consciousness of the end as actually present? We must go back to the personal teaching of the Lord Jesus. Using the eschatological imagery of the time, He led men away from the habit of taking it for reality. They were not anxiously to scan the future, 'for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.' Perhaps the words mean rather 'in your midst,' but the sense remains the same, for this Kingdom is invisible to eyes that look on outward things. He proclaimed the immediate coming of the Kingdom ; men then living should see its coming. How and when, then, did the Kingdom come?

A careful reading of the Gospel will give the answer. At first Jesus proclaims in the most general terms that the Kingdom is at hand. Then there is a limit of time fixed ; the Kingdom was to come in the lifetime of men then living. But still, the day and the hour no man knows. But at last the Son Knows the day and the hour, and declares it. You have the declaration of Jesus before Caiaphas. 'Now and from this time onward ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.' Here is something future, but also a present reality. The Evangelists who recorded the prediction of the Kingdom within that generation recorded also this more tremendous affirmation. He who made the affirmation was soon to hang on the Cross, and there the robber pleaded for remembrance when the Kingdom should come. But the answer brushed aside the hope of an uncertain future : 'Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.' The Lord spoke as reigning king, lifted up on the Cross against the clouds of heaven---and Caiaphas saw. Saw what? Who shall say? There is a prophecy quoted as apt : 'They shall look on him whom they pierced.' Did He see beyond? But even the faithful who saw were slow to understand, and even after the Resurrection they still teased the Master with questions about the times and seasons of the Kingdom. The old answer was given once more : the Father has put these things in His own power ; but then there was a promise : 'Ye shall receive power'---it is not the same word in the Greek, but the connection seems obvious---'after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.' The Holy Ghost came, and Peter at once declared the meaning of it, as spoken by Joel the prophet : 'It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh.' In the last days! These men were upon whom the end of the world were come. In the light of the Resurrection they saw and understood the Cross, the coming of Christ into His Kingdom ; and they proclaimed it. 'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.'

And yet we pray, 'Thy kingdom come!' and the language of futurity has never ceased. At the end of the Apostolic Age men were querulously asking, 'Where is the promise of His coming?' It was necessary to warn them that, although they were indeed living in the last day, yet the Day of the Lord may well outlast a thousand years of man's reckoning. There is still a future : the completion of the Day. But the day is here, and we are living in it. Our eyes do see the establishment of the Kingdom, though not yet its final triumph. Our eyes do see the throne set, and judgment given. For it is the Day of Judgment in which we live. It is when Judgment becomes terrible that we are most aware of its presence ; but present it is always, whether in the stirring of a single conscience or in the crash of an empire. The Kingdom present and Judgment present are not to be denied. They force themselves upon the Christian understanding even when the tendency to futurity and expectancy is at the strongest. The use of imagery is not obsolete. The meaning of the imagery is not completely realized, and until that be done, alike in thought and in action, the language of imagery will be a wholesome stimulant. But we must remember that it is imagery of the present as well as of the still veiled future. We must hold fast, with whatever difficulty, the consciousness of the Last Day, of the Kingdom come, in which the Church of the Apostles rejoiced and endured.

It is a general consciousness, common to the whole Church, however dimly illuminated. We are not to look for Christ here or there, in local or temporal manifestation : 'For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in his day.' The Kingdom is in our midst, established in the universal Church of Christ ; it is within us, wheresoever Christ reigns in the hearts of the simple.

It would have been better if we had rendered 'Kingdom of God' as 'God's reign.' The word 'kingdom' has external associations, very popular in Jewish thought. The word 'reign' lends itself more easily to the emphasis placed by Jesus on the inner life. Wherever men and women accepted Himself as Son of God the reign began. So the true way of estimating Christ's teaching on this subject is to realize that it is a present experience which must develop until its great consummation, when in every heart He will be enthroned.

In Christ, Timothy.


Suzanne and Jay

Suzanne wrote: "In reply to [the oneness pentecostal's] comments regarding end-time events, I would first liked to caution you in regards to your comments regarding the catholic church and the pope on this forum, as you may get yourself into some pretty hot water if they are negative comments.

I do not want to get myself in hot water by speaking thus, but I feel a gentle caution is necessary my friend, from one who has learnt the hard way, from doing the very same thing.

I agree that the tribulation started from the Lord's resurrection onwards, ………."

Jay wrote: " I have to agree with you Suzanne . The Protestants in every generation have looked to the Pope as the Anti-christ and each generation was wrong. The reason for this is that the Protestants are as much a part of Babylon as the Roman Catholics and cannot see past their own exalted image of themselves. In blaming the Pope, Satan has the advantage to sneak in his own man unnoticed. As soon as we start seeing Jesus as our Lord and true leader, we can see past our own delusions. That is happening but the majority of the church will follow the Anti-christ when he comes simply because he is not recognized. He will be called anointed of God and the dew of heaven is on him, it will take much courage to go against the organized church on this.

We cannot fault [the oneness pentecostal] for this however; he is just echoing the "traditional" view that has caused the delusion to begin with.

[Oneness Pentecostal] answers:

First, I would like to thank Suzanne for her word of caution. Almost immediately the leader of this group rejected my comments. The first sentence in Jay's response indicates that he believes all previous generations were in error. I agree with Jay's next sentence however, in that I also believe that most if not all of denominational churches along with the Catholic church play their part in end-time deceptions.

The Lord Jesus removed me out of the denominational churches many years ago. I do not claim to be a Protestant or Catholic, since I have nothing to protest. But I do have something to promote, and that is the Lordship and ever-present relationship with Jesus that is absolutely necessary for salvation.

In these last-days, and I say that because things seem to be moving quickly in that direction, the deceptions of Satan have grown to momentous proportions. Perhaps, one of the greatest deceptions comes as a result of ignoring past history and then rejecting the words of God as being unfounded. Let me give you an example and I will speak to you as if you are one of those who know scripture and believe in Jesus.

Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." "I and the Father are one" and the disciple John said, "He was in the world, the world was made by him, and the world knew Him not." Now, either these scriptures are absolutely correct or they are subject to interpretation. If we submit them to interpretation then they become the ideas of the interpreter.

The Roman Catholic church in its early history decided that these scriptures along with others needed to be interpreted in order to give understanding to mankind. It developed the Trinity Doctrine by dividing God into three persons. Thousands of books have been written attempting to explain the Trinity Doctrine and that doctrine has grown to such an extent that anyone who does not accept it as truth is not welcomed among the Catholic and Protestant churches.

So, now the denial that there is only one name given unto mankind whereby we can be saved is divided into Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Deception has taught that Father is the higher power, the dead Son is the savior, and the Holy Spirit does not matter. The resurrected Jesus says, "All power and authority in heaven and earth has been given to me."

Jay, the above should answer another of your questions as to why the church does not have the ability to show power as in the early church. If the believers in Jesus would believe in His name the power would flow.


Belief in Jesus

As Christians we need to understand that no one can believe in Jesus without first being filled with the Holy Spirit of God. It is the Holy Spirit that leads people to the truth, and Jesus is The Truth. The disciples of Jesus are the perfect examples of the work of the Holy Spirit. Although the disciples thought they believed in Jesus enough to die with Him, they were powerless to uphold their belief. But, after having received the Holy Spirit, they unashamedly stood before great crowds and declared to all that "God hast made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

This example should help us understand that many people can point to Jesus and declare who He is but it is only people filled with the Holy Spirit who can depend upon His name. In spite of everything written to the contrary our knowledge or righteous acts do not denote belief in Jesus. The name, standing alone before mankind, is the only entrée to eternal life with God.

There are hundreds of scriptures in your concordance that emphasize the importance of the name. Listed are some of them.
Math. 12:21 in his n. shall the Gentiles trust
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's n. and
John 14:13 whatsoever you shall ask in my n.
John 17:6 manifested thy n. unto the men
John 17:12 in the world, I kept them in thy n.
John 17:26 I have declared unto them thy n.
Acts 4:12 there is none other n. under heaven

Then the warning from those with governmental authority.
Acts 5:28 that ye should not teach in this n.
Acts 5:40 should not speak in the n. of Jesus

I would implore my brothers and sisters to address their prayers To Jesus and not through Jesus as though there were a higher power. The fullness of God lives within the name Jesus and we should not be so willing to compromise with the world that we avoid prayer to Him both in public and private. He who has the Son has the Father also, but not necessarily the other way around.

Before I say anything, I wish to make the point, for myself, that I have no problem with any having a different view-point on any biblical issue, all I ask is that my view be given the same consideration and respect I believe I give others. I have no problem fellow-shipping with any one who wishes to talk of My beloved savior, no matter how different their view differs from mine.

It does no good for any of us to get upset and hot under the collar, because once we do that we close our minds to any further learning, and we become hard hearted and unyielding, which is the opposite spirit which Jesus requires of us.

My opening comments were not spoken in any way negative, mocking or sarcastic towards Jay or this forum, for I hope that I have made my peace with Jay. Their is much glorious treasure to be mined from this forum, and I wish to stay a part of it, if even in the back-ground.

My view on who will and who will not be taken up in the "rapture" alone is enough to get me banned from every list in the universe, but that is for another time. You touched on a subject close to all of our hearts, even though subtly, and that involves the unity of the body. I personally believe that the only way we will have true, lasting, power-filled unity, is only AFTER we are truly united as one with Jesus Himself, in mind, heart and spirit. This is the infilling of the Holy Spirit which I feel is spoken of in scripture.

The body, or church, those that are Holy Spirit filled, is minute in number. Before anyone blows a fuse, let me explain why I believe this. I do not have the time here at present to supply the supporting scripture, but I will give them at a later date. To be a true spirit filled believer, with Christ living within you, means you do walk in supernatural power. I have, like most of you, failed to see this in the lives of those in the church. After grieving terribly about this for a long time, I put it before the Lord and what He told me has changed my life. I might add, not always in a comfortable, pleasant way. Always for my better, but not always comfortable.

We can do all of the rituals that are in the bible, and I am not saying in any way they are wrong in themselves, as long as they are not made an idol, but if we do them with an unclean heart, and blood stained hands, they are to no effect. The Israelites before they entered the chosen land, had to be circumcised. We are no different. If we want to enter into our promised land, that of power and victory, in any area of our lives, we first must have the knife laid to our filthy stinking lives.

Something the Lord is high-lighting to me of late, with my three boys, is that if I do not discipline and correct them now, He will have to do it through life later on, and this will hurt them more than it would now. He showed me this by taking me through the process of a little baby being circumcised just after birth, it cries and is grumpy for a few days, but then has no memory of it. If left until adult to do, it is a bigger cut, a deeper cut, more painful, and more blood-shed. The emotional trauma is also greater, not to mention the time and money lost through being unable to work.

Does anyone see what I am trying to say? Many of us have not submitted to this purifying process in our lives, and as we struggle every time God tries to cut another piece of flesh, we make the cut worse, and the pain greater. This is the only way that the "anointing" will be released in any of our lives. I have found that as I submit to this cutting, the less painful it is, but also, the more authority I have against the enemy and his kingdom afterwards.

I have so much more to say, but I have an impatient husband and three anxious kids waiting to go to our local agricultural show, so I shall finish this later. I hope that it has given you all something to chew on for a while. I apologize for cutting this short, but I thought I had enough time to finish writing my thoughts.




What we are trying to do here is become one with the love and unity that God would expect of us. For some, this is not possible for it takes denying ourselves and coming into that humbleness that we also speak of. Suzanne mentioned the circumcision of the heart and that is what must happen before we are truly in the fellowship of God. To judge and condemn our brothers and sisters because they do not agree with the narrow minded bias of others is to fall into condemnation ourselves. It is a tragic circumstance. Those of this heartfelt circumcision may see right through it but love oftentimes blinds us to the faults of others, we become justly tolerant and that leads to us being very vulnerable to attack.

Some people need to listen more and speak less. There are subtle inferences in the Bible concerning profound truths that are taken out of context and mistakenly allowed to stand on their own. The Bible will interpret itself if allowed to be read with an open mind to the whole truth and not to the narrow interpretations of others. It is still the best rule of interpretation to let the Holy Spirit do the teaching but prideful people believe that their own spirit is the Holy Spirit. Those who pretend to know when confronted with a group who knows better, will many times entrench themselves in whatever delusions that drives them to bring forth error and shout even louder. In that respect, they become the truth and the way, take upon themselves the forms of deity and become false christs. Many of them will be easy to spot because in the long run, division, hatefulness and pride will show up to expose them. If you lack wisdom pray for it, if you think that you are wiser than we are, then what are your intentions here?

God is love and the rivers of living water that flows from our innermost being will draw others to the truth but that love has to be accepted and allowed to spring forth from their own being for us to work together in the Oneness of truth.


Dearest Jay,
I understand completely what you are saying. I have found that until the Lord captures the heart completely, the focus of the religious mindset will remain on what is wrong with everyone else except ourselves. Religious spirits (which we all have) love to turn us all into Pharisees -- that is their mission in the church, and as long as we believe it is up to us to be the Holy Spirit to others, we are vulnerable. This focus on the wrongs of others, works effectively as a means of keeping our attention off of what the Lord is doing in us -- indirectly being "fig leaves" we use to try to keep the focus off of our heart-motives.

Last year the Spirit of the Lord spoke a simple little thought into my being. He said, "you are only as divided as you think you are". I no longer give power by my unbelief to anything that 'divides' the Body of Christ.. I see only One Body now.. made of many parts. There are differences in each part, but praise God for that! Where would the Body be if all were alike! Isn't God more powerful than any work of darkness -- and flesh? Division is of the flesh, not the Spirit according to Paul's letter to the Galatians.

"You are only as divided as you think you are"... That thought has taken deep root in me. One application has been in my consideration of the differences in religious convictions between all the various branches of the Vine. Because He has filled me with a passionate desire to seek out "the treasure" which each part of the Vine has been preserving, I have looked at all the branches with a completely different focus -- looking for the Good things about each.. not the bad.

I have found it is like in marriage -- when we focus only on the things in our spouses that we don't like, our attitude toward them takes on a darkness and we are unhappy -- but when the Lord causes us to look with a different focus -- on the things that make them uniquely them, wonderful things that we can appreciate about them, all of a sudden we see the Good and our mindset becomes full of Love and Light.

This has happened to me when I look upon the Church Universal. There are wonderful things about all the parts of the Vine.. and when you begin to look at these "good things" -- instead of the bad, your heart-attitude toward each of them takes on an entirely different hue: Love. (Maybe it is the glass half full/half empty paradigm shift in thinking)... but until this spiritually happens, we tend to focus on the things that are wrong, not right and empower the division instead of the unity.

Division has power because we think we are "right" and they are "wrong", but the Lord has a way of dealing with that too. When He heats up His Sevenfold Purifying Fires and we really see how dark we are at the heart level, we then have a lot more Grace and Compassion for others. We see our great need for Mercy, and because He gives it to us, we in turn knowing the Word, realize we must give it to others too. Whether this darkness in our hearts are from theological sins, or flesh sins or spiritual sins of presumption -- they all effectively cause us to fall short of the Glory of God -- and the Good News is that His Blood has redeemed us from them all -- taking the curse for us! Hallelujah!

He/She who has been forgiven much, Loves much... and that Love will transform every thought we have. If we receive the truth about ourselves -- that we are black, and don't have the whole truth; that we are a mixture of truth and error, and that we are completely dependent upon the Holy Spirit to open our eyes that we might see.. and our ears that we might hear, and our hearts that we might understand -- we are not nearly so harsh on other's sin. We know from the Word, that if we need Grace for ourselves, we must give Grace to others... and this all leads to a different mindset towards all human beings. With the measure we use, it shall be measured back to us, the Spirit reminds us often.

We begin to see the Bible as being a book written just for us --a Love Letter written personally to us. Not for us to use to tell another what is wrong with their faith and their convictions -- but a mirror for our own lives. We learn to Trust God, who must set us free, to set the others free too... and we leave Him (and them) alone for Him to do it. We then can corporately rejoice in the transformation taking place in all of us, and we don't take upon ourselves the necessity of being the Holy Spirit to another. We speak the Truth in Love -- and we can do that because the Love-relationship has been established and is known... then the truth can be spoken, and it will be received.

In my heart-pilgrimage, I have spent time on all sides of these religious walls that divide us.. and I see and hear the same religious spirits working in all parts of the Vine. They say the same things, using the same tones, the same convictions of their own 'rightness', just inserting the right name -- whichever the "heretics" are - in context of that particular branch. (insert: Protestant, or Catholic, or Orthodox or Come-Outers.. depending on who the 'heretic' is according to the denomination) Once you realize this, you never feel quite the same about the arguments.. .you have heard them all way too many times, by both sides, and they lose their power.

So be of good courage Jay, the Lord has already overcome. The Church -- the One True Church does indeed rise up in Love in this last day. We may be very surprised to see where they come from... from what parts of the Vine -- and perhaps the prophetic picture in Esther will be revealed as the truth. I pray the we will not be "Vashti's" who refuse to come together for the Glorification of Jesus Christ in His Body -- being too 'sacred' to be joined to all the rest of the dry bones -- and who are then rejected as the King picks out an Esther -- a woman of heart and passion and who will display His Glory!

Love to all who Love God~~
your sister, Linda the Beguine

We have all been real careful not to bring out the heresy tag in our discussions but since we are discussing the end-times we must also realize that many false prophets will arise and deceive many and this would certainly be part of an end-time discussion. There are heresies in the church, we do not need to deny that fact just because of our love and respect for others, on the contrary, we need to identify them to be able to defend ourselves from the wiles of the devil. We must also be careful only to expose the heresy and try to protect others in the spirit that have in fact been deceived with the attitude of "peace toward all men." That said, we must do what we can to separate ourselves from delusional influences.

[The Oneness Pentecostal] had already sent me this message of his to a separate list and what follows is his reply to my reply, mine indented. Essentially it is my view that we are led to Jesus through faith and being filled with the Holy Spirit comes after we are regenerated. There is no heresy either way on this, it is not an issue that either viewpoint should divide or condemn you to hell but we do need to discuss the heretical aspect of what is being forced upon us in denying the trinity. That's too bad, heresy is not a subject that is easy to deal with or to pin on someone but only one in this group accused us of not accepting the name of Jesus.

First of all, the non-essential point of disagreement is that [the Oneness Pentecostal] contends "no one can believe in Jesus without first being filled with the Holy Spirit of God." Then because I do not agree and I am not "overjoyed" at what he says, [the Oneness Pentecostal] tells me that I do not have the Holy Spirit and asks the question by quoting the scripture "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" In that this is an obvious contradiction is something that should be obvious to all. This is sad but I have already tried to reason with him on this and we have better things to do than have endless discussions over nonsense.

On the essential point, we have previously discussed the oneness position that denies the trinity and found it to be hateful and schismatic. Not that this position is hateful in itself but when all that believe in it turn out to be hateful and consider themselves to be the only recipients of the Holy Ghost, it becomes so. To think that if we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three personalities but indivisible as one God, we cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit or that anyone who is not baptized their way is doomed to hell, is hateful, divisive and the condemnation speaks for itself in its absurdity. In that we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God does not in any way make this position tri-theism, that would be heresy also. Jesus is not the Father, He is the Son of God that is One with the Father, sent by the Father and His divinity is without question among us. The Holy Spirit is also divine, of the Godhead and proceeds from the Father and the Son. In that this is hard to understand should not bring us to question it or take on a position that turns out to be hateful, divisive and condemns those that do not agree. They have made their own hell, we want no part of it. We understand that Jehovah God made the universe, the world and mankind and that the Son was with Him in that "Oneness" from the beginning. To treat us as heretics because we believe in One God and Jesus is part of that Godhead also speaks for itself in that it judges the one doing the judging. I have no more to add.

I am criticized for taking people off of this list but the question is - Should I allow heresy and divisiveness to flourish here or should I take steps to protect those that the Lord has entrusted to us as a group? We have better things to discuss and we do not need others coming in and filling our mail boxes with nonsense. If you think that I am wrong in this, let me know. I have already stated before that I do not have the time to deal with individual schismatics and that there needs to be something set up differently but got no one interested in doing anything about it. I tried love and reason, it didn't work in this case.

Bye Bye [oneness pentecostal]. I am sincerely sorry it has to be this way. If you would like to respond, it will have to be to me personally but if you are to merely defend your position, don't bother. I appreciate you wanting to continue with the dialogue but I have no time for it nor the inclination.

Well, for the rest of us (smile). We can carry on the topic of false prophets in the last days if we like. If you want to discuss other heresies, that's OK too. What about the idea that Jesus has already come in the sense that this denies the second-coming in the future. I think that this is heresy also. I have not seen much love on the side of those that teach it, nor have I seen full gospel teaching there either.


Hi Jay, I have pasted your letter below and would like to respond. I appreciate your taking the time to write and I hope we can continue to communicate. As I understand things, there is a major, critical difference between us and that difference is the Holy Spirit. Maybe, by taking your letter line by line, I can get you to begin to understand that receiving the Holy Spirit is necessary for one to believe in Jesus rather than about Jesus.

Hi [oneness pentecostal]"

I appreciate your including me here in your group but I must confess that we believe differently. That's Ok if you can accept me as a brother anyway but first of all I believe that we are justified by our faith, not by being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I do not have any problem accepting you as a brother as I do not have a problem accepting people in the catholic and protestant churches as brothers and sisters but that does not mean that I agree with their theology. My question to you would be, "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" It is obvious to me that you have not received the Holy Spirit or else you would be overjoyed at hearing anyone proclaim the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I think you come close, but you are not there. It is justification by faith in Jesus that makes a difference. Faith has to be related to something because faith standing alone by itself is meaningless. It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the faith to totally and completely depend upon Jesus for salvation. It is impossible for you or me or anyone else to totally and completely depend upon Jesus without being filled with the Holy Spirit i.e., born-again, translated out of this world and into the Kingdom of God.

You obviously have that faith but to me, without that initial faith that leads to salvation, I do not believe that we can truly be filled with the Holy Spirit; it comes through repentance and obedience after we believe. We may have that measure of faith that is given to us all, but any infilling or baptism of the Holy Spirit is for me separate than the gift of the Holy Spirit or the measure of faith given to all of us.

In this statement you have outlined the major deception that has befallen most of denominationalism. They have been led to think that they can mentally accept Jesus and do things that promote it and that they can thereby be saved. If that were the case, we could save ourselves and it would not be a gift from God. Stated another way, they seem to think that they can say, " I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins" and thereby they are saved. This is a mind game and has nothing to do with the born-again experience. The Holy Spirit is the enabler, the gift from God, which converts our willingness to believe into the actual experience of believing.

The disciples had already believed on Jesus when He first gave the Holy Spirit as recorded in John 20:21, "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost.'" The Father sent the Son, once Jesus was glorified, He was able to send the promise of the Father.

Later, while He was still with us, He said: Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Here again, these scripture point to the Holy Spirit as the enabler. The disciples were unable to perform their mission until the Holy Spirit gave them the power of belief.

You may be confusing the leading of the Holy Spirit with being filled. We do not come to God unless He draws us. The infilling is subsequent to regeneration and if genuine comes with the power to recognize that truth through the experience. Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

There is no confusion in what I have stated. Jesus told us what the work of the Holy Spirit would be and He said the Holy Spirit would convince the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Read John 16:8-15 and then, "he shall glorify me; for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine; therefore said I that He shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Of course all believers believe in the name of Jesus to be saved but Jesus died for the whole world, not just those that depend upon His name. There is no other name by which we may be saved but Jesus paid the penalty for our sins so that we may be able to be saved. God sent His son so that the whole world might be save through Him, He is unwilling that any should perish. This is called redemption, without that we could not have a Christian life or believe upon His name. Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ UNTO ALL AND UPON ALL them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." 2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The righteousness of God is bestowed upon all who have faith in Jesus Christ and then sealed by the Holy Spirit. Without being sealed we would be the virgins without oil.

I pray to Jesus in His name and commend you for it as well but I have to add that it is love that will identify a true Christian.


Love is whatever one may define it to be and therefore another form of any man's theology. It is the dependence upon the name Jesus that identifies those who are participants in the Kingdom of God.

I pray that what I have conveyed as Truth will be received as love. --[the Oneness Pentecostal]


(from Jay)

One more thing to add [oneness pentecostal] is that you have capitalized the word truth here. This puts your own truth in the position of being divine, that suggests that you have taken the position of Christ in this situation.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Hi Jay,

I had to read this twice to get a full understanding of it, and then when I got your most recent response concerning the belief in Jesus, that really opened my eyes to what was going on. I am so sorry for being so slow to respond. I commend you, Jay, for your discernment of the scriptures and for continuing to protect those like myself, who would be eaten alive by the beast due to lack of knowledge. Man, it took me two days to realize that the e-mail in question was NOT harmless. The alarm bells went off only when I discovered that you were putting this person off of the list. I went back to read that e-mail a couple of times. To deny the importance of God, and the Holy Spirit while acknowledging only Christ, is, I agree with you, heresy. But that is not all. To think that love is whatever one may define it to be is absolutely incomprehensible. Love has one meaning, and you did the best you could in your attempt to utilize it in giving your explanation.

My point is this: I thank God for this forum, and I want to thank you, Jay for opening my eyes to how quickly, subtly and venomously the enemy can attack without me even noticing it. I know now that I must take the time to read these postings, and not take anything for granted that anyone is saying.

Bill Caraway

I would like to pose a simple question to all on this list.

Does it really stop division by deleting someone with opposing view points from the list, or does it cause a greater dis-unity? It may not be obvious, because that person doesn't have a voice any more, but he or she still is divided from the people who remain.

The God of heaven and earth hears their prayers just as He hears ours, and are we guilty of causing an offence in another brother simply because we are unable to deal correctly, in love, and maybe in correction, to bring all into the fullness of Christ.

If the Father had our heavy handed approach, and I am not pointing specifically to Jay, but to my self first, none of us would ever have a chance at making it to heaven. Sweeping the dirt under the mat does not get rid of it from the house, it only hides it to be dealt with another day.

We become mature, through a long process of refining and fine-tuning by the Lord, and I have found that much of this is done through others, and our reactions to them decrees our position and authority in the heavenly or spiritual realm.. I have found by experience, that as I become heavy handed to others, I lose the authority of which I had become familiar.

Not only this, but if I do not repent quickly at the very beginning, as the Holy Spirit softly convicts me, I become a little deafer each time, and His voice becomes harder to hear. My heart becomes seared over and self-righteousness starts to grow. When this happens, God has not been backwards in giving me a swift kick up the butt, sometimes, BIG_TIME!!!!

To not have this happen again, I listen carefully to the soft ministrations of God through my spirit, and no matter how right I feel I am, I will do it His way as best I can. I don't always do it right, for their are many voices who try to discern for you God's voice, but it makes things worse. I have learnt by hard lessons to trust implicitly the still small voice I hear, because it has never, ever let me down, only when I listen to others interpretation do I get into trouble.

I do not mean to sound arrogant, but a lot of what God is doing at present goes against the grain of established church doctrine. Not His word, but ESTABLISHED CHURCH DOCTRINE! Truth is being released at an unprecedented level, not of new truth, but an unveiling of the simple truths we have missed or misinterpreted. I have tested this voice and studied scripture to know God's will in each instance as best is possible, and it has become easier to detect the enemy at work.

Again, I must stress, unity is only when we are truly united in and with Christ Himself, that He can flow un-hindered through us, so that no matter what the offence, we can love them as He did those same ones who mocked and scoured Him on the cross. If He could say, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do", how can we reject any for simple disagreements?

As we become truly united in Christ and the sign of this is the ASCENDING level of authority and power in our lives, are we able to love men and women with the unconditional love that He loved. This is not an easy thing, for the day the Lord asked me to love His children as I love Him, I ignorantly said YES immediately, not realizing the test I was about to face.

All hell broke out in my life to prove that I could not do this of myself. It took a great work by God to get me to a place that I was able to love with HIS un-conditional love, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!!! Christians talk about love as a second nature thing, but the love the Lord talks of is a sacrifice, and that sacrifice is us. To love as He loved costs big-time. It is not simply a declaration, it is a continual act of obedience, and as an act of worship to the one who loves us always.

It is the act of laying us, our thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and emotions, behaviour, decisions and everything else in our miserable lives, before His throne, and allowing Him to do what He has to through us. To cut another off from fellowship, we DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT!!!!! No matter who set up a ministry, a house, a bible study group, or a web-site, if it is dedicated to God, it is His, and we no longer own it. It is to be given to Him to direct and to control. Our hands are to be taken off of it. At His direction yes, we may act, but it must be Him, and not us.

This is a sensitive issue I know, but one that the Lord grieves over. I so often see hurting people, ostracized from the body because someone in authority disagreed with them and cast them out. Their are scriptures in the old testament which deals with this. The following talks specifically to Israel, but a parallel can be seen here for the church.

"My people have been lost sheep, Their shepherds have led them astray, They have turned them away on the mountains, they have forgotten their resting place, All who found them have devoured them, And their adversaries said, ' we have not offended, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, The Lord, the hope of their fathers."

Those who I have seen who have been turned from their chosen place of fellow-ship, have literally been devoured by the adversary, because of feelings of worthlessness, rejection, resentment etc. Our actions and behaviour is the cause of much heart ache and grief, if not directed by the Lord. We are not innocent by any means, and the Lord will deal with our heavy handed actions.

I do not wish to come against you Jay in this, as we have been on this ground before, but I cannot ignore the anguish from the Lord over this issue. Yes, their is a great danger lurking at the door, but again, to ignore it won't make it go away. True love will welcome these, and truth in teaching will work its miracles. If these same do not agree and wish to leave of their own, so be it, but in so doing you are totally innocent of any wrong doing.

Enough for now my friend



Hi Suzanne,

I think that before there is criticism of taking someone off the list, we should first discuss what it is to hold the trinity doctrine. Like I mentioned before, we had discussed these things before and it was not something that we brought up, it was from a hate monger that thought we are all going to hell because we were not baptized their way. This is the position that [the oneness pentecostal] has, he was very subtle in bringing up the heresies in stages but let me know from the beginning that he was from that "Oneness" position and I recognized it early and only wanted to stop it before that spirit was allowed any further. Deleting someone from the list is not the same as burning him at the stake or condemning him to hell, it is only protecting this group from demonic influence. If you would like to tell me why we should take time with the heresies and the heretics when the Bible is clear that we are not to welcome them, fine. Surely you can also read between the lines of what he was writing, it was in the spirit of error almost in every case. We can deal with some of that but I believe that we should protect ourselves and the persons that God has entrusted to us and it is a waste of time beyond the initial alarm and exposure.

I feel for [the oneness pentecostal], I have prayed for him, I think that it is tragic that he uses this doctrine as the main focus of his theology. I feel sorry for him that he feels that everyone here is denying the name of Jesus but it is a delusion. If we have to defend the heretics, then what are we doing here? Are you defending heresy Suzanne? I think not. But then it must be asked if you think that holding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One God is false. If so, we need to know now. I still do not want to take the time with it but it won't be the first time that discussions have taken off on their own and we also learn from them each time. Is there anyone on this list that wants to deal with these things regarding counseling of heretics and schismatics? I have already mentioned that we may need to have something structured in that regard. Who wants to do it? If not, I cannot allow heresy to come in and try to influence this group. I am not sweeping it under the rug, I am throwing it out completely into the light of day. If it were otherwise, I would not have mentioned it at all and just deleted him without telling you.

We are also considered heretics, we are considered heretics by [the oneness pentecostal]. This was not just a point of disagreement; he wants, like all those in the Oneness position, to make this doctrine the only one accepted in the church, it is the main thrust of their message. Heresy is like demon possession, it would take much fasting and prayer to drive them out of a person. Of course they will continue with the division but that is not what this group is about. Maybe there will be another group that tries to deal with heresy by having them have an equal voice but I would not want to be included in it, I am called to the remnant.

Are we the remnant seed or not? Have we truly left Babylon behind us or do we want to bring it with us as we restore the foundations? The Bible teaches that these people come among us so that we may recognize them and expose their teaching. As heresy is exposed, we become stronger. Should our conclusions be a mixture of truth and error for the sake of love or should we stand upon the truth alone? The question is what is truth but we are discussing the trinity doctrine here, not if a person agrees with me or not over non essential issues. We are to be a separate people. Do you really think that we should allow them an equal voice here? Should we also allow Mormons and JW's and all other cults and anyone that thinks that they are the only true church and try to make us into their image? That is fine if they want to be a part of us and listen and expose themselves to the rhema and learn with us, but must we accept their teaching to continue to fellowship with them? Is this what you want this group to be? We already know what they believe, should we take time with all that nonsense, or should we deal with the issues as they are exposed and then move on with those that truly hear the Lord in truth and are willing to humble themselves enough to have a teachable spirit? Or do you think these people are speaking the truth? Do you also deny the church's view of the trinity?

I guess the bottom line is that I already recognize these things as heresy. I will not allow myself to be influenced by heresy or to give it the benefit of the doubt. If you have doubts about the trinity and if it is true or not or if it is heresy to believe otherwise or not, then that is what we must discuss. I have already made up my mind on it and each time it comes up, I stand on firmer ground. So far, no one has stood with me on this.


Hello people,

The past two years the Lord has changed my perspective regarding many things, including many doctrines that exist. In changing the perspective, He also changed the attitude. One aspect of this attitude was trying to convince that a view being presented is the right one, and far too often techniques targeted to corner the opponent were being used.

Whether these techniques are subtle or blunt, the effect is the same, only the blunt variant is more obvious, and therefore experienced as a more hostile way of conversation.

Learning how to communicate a view you know the Lord has put in your heart is a process. It's part of the process of becoming like Christ, and I believe our heavenly Father is responsible and capable of leading us through all our mistakes and polish the rough edges off our being.

It has been my experience, that everybody is at a different point in that process, and to make it more dynamic, no process of perfection the Lord goes with each of us is the same.

Taking someone off the list can be a method of correction the Lord wants to use to learn the person a lesson. It can also be, that the Lord wants us to continue fellowship with the person, such that he or she can learn from our example or similar mistakes, which may hurt him/her as much as an offensive tone hurts us.

I think the approach of all of us should be, that we are poor in spirit, or teachable in spirit. The Spirit of the Lord will reveal a word on the list which is for a reader. There is no merit in trying to convince others that we are right, just mention your view and the arguments or experiences you have, and the Lord will do the rest.

So reaching unity is in my view the task the Lord is undertaking, and we can be the channels through which He reveals truth, it would be good though if we are patient channels. Only when He writes His laws in our hearts will we truly be united, and one in spirit.

Keep up the good words, and let the Lord establish the truth consensus.

Yours in Christ,


So much truth in all this discussion! Isn't it wonderful, to hear the heart of Jesus coming through so loud and clear!

And as always, there is no "blanket" rule which can apply to every situation -- other than the blanket rule that we are men and women under authority, not our own, but bondslaves of the Lord Jesus Christ. As "God-Governed people" and we must take our orders from the One in True Authority, our "Lord", Master - Jesus Christ. We cannot make the decision as to what is 'right', without asking the One who knows what is "right" - in each unique situation -- given the motives and state of being of each heart involved.

I believe part of Jay's mandate from God, for the purpose of this list, is to foster and nurture "Koinonia" or community. To nurture that spiritual unity in Christ, the bonds of peace must be acknowledged by all -- and to gracefully acknowledge we do have many differences of sincere and heartfelt conviction -- and as the brother just mentioned -- differences due to our being at different places along this journey of Salvation. If we allow this 'discussion' to turn into an argument on who is theologically right and who is wrong -- then the atmosphere conducive to Koinonia is lost. There are many, many groups who love to "argue" theology -- but very few who will seriously discuss our likenesses and differences in Love.

In the Kingdom of the Agape-Huios (Col 1:13)
Linda the Beguine

Hi all,

I am one of those who listens (reads) a lot and says very little. I love to learn and love to hear (read) most of the eloquent speakers (writers) we have in this group.

I feel Jay is listening (reading) with his heart. There is a difference between discussion and judgment. Jay's only requirement is that all be done in love. If we listen we hear (and feel) the difference too.

I have unsubscribed from other lists and would have been off this list long ago if Jay had not put an end to some of the negativity and judgment that comes up from time to time. Jay never jumps to any conclusions and gives the person the benefit of the doubt. I think he has great patience. In addition, you can tell that it is always with great sorrow that anyone is deleted from the group.

It is not the words that are the deciding factor, it is the way they are said and the tone they are said with. Jay is not keeping away people who do not agree with him or denying fellowship from anyone who seeks it or even jumping to judgment on anyone else's beliefs. To the contrary, he is protecting the unity of the group by allowing only love and kindness.

In the words of my five year old:

God is Faith
Jesus is Hope
The Holy Spirit is Love
They are all One in your heart.

I do not know how he came up with this, but I "listen" with my heart. As I said above, I feel that Jay is doing this too. That is why I am still on the list and look forward to more enlightening discussions.



Have been trying to put together everything God has been showing me and this is the place along the path I have come to. Everywhere I go people think they have the way to the truth - their way is the way. Teaching on how to be a body - how to get all the parts working in unison. And this is the basic 101 lesson I have learned so far. The only unity - the only way to get the body working together is through God. Look to God. In everything we do. Don't look at someone else. Keep your focus on God. Let Him put the pieces together. Do you think this can be done? I haven't meant anyone who doesn't think they have the handle on the way God wants to put His body together. On how God's perfect will shall be accomplished on earth. I know that I don't no anything. I am a sinner at the mercy of God. I am thankful He loves me in spite of who I am. That He welcomes me into the throne room of His life and calls me His own.

Please don't think I am applying this to you. Every time I share something with someone they take it personally when that is not what I am doing. I am just sharing what He has been giving me and trying to make sense of it all. The way to unity is through Him. Until we learn to put aside our own motives, agendas, worldly understanding of truth, and love Him and seek Him how can we expect to really join together? Every person does have a part of the body - but I am convinced that no one can dictate the way the body can move except God. It is a new day - new step - don't hang on to old formulas.

But Jay, the basics are the basics. That doesn't change. The heart of God doesn't change. But this I know, I will always be the one who stands behind those who think they are the righteous who will continue to cry out forgive me Father, I am a sinner not deserving of your love and life. And from what I have lived and seen I realize I will always be thrilled by Him, because He calls me into Him. Awesome isn't it? Why would He do that for us? Blessings, Hope you can make some sense of all of that.


The End Of the Age

'And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write ; and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel whom I saw standing upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and swore by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer ; but in the days of the voice the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants, the prophets. Rev. 10:4-7

John is about to write what the seven thunders said when a voice from heaven tells him not to. It appears that he had been keeping some sort of record of all that had happened and at this point was about to record the utterances of the seven thunders. The voice from heaven could be that of God or Christ [14:13 ; 18:4]. In any case a voice from heaven would be a voice of authority [2 Esdr. 6:17]

The instructions to John are that he should seal up what the seven thunders said and not write it down. This prohibition contrasts with 1:19 ['Write therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later'] and 22:10 ['Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book']. Some think that John brings in the voice from heaven to justify his omission of some traditional eschatological material. If that were the case, it is difficult to understand why he would mention the thunders at all. Others appeal to 2 Cor. 12:4 and contest what the thunders said was too sacred to be shared. It is more plausible that the seven thunders, like the seals and trumpets, formed another series of warning plagues. The adamant decision of the human race not to repent [9:20-21] would obviously not be profited even with the knowledge.

In this context, to seal up means not to disclose. John seals up what the thunders said by not writing them down. What is said is not to be made known to the churches. In Dan. 12:14 the prophet is told to 'close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end' [cf. Dan. 12:9]. In contrast, what the thunders said is never to be revealed.

After the brief reference to the seven thunders John's attention returns to the mighty angel standing over the sea and earth. The angel raises his hand to heaven [the place of God's abode Isa. 57:15] and solemnly swears that the period of delay is over. With the sounding of the seventh trumpet God's great purpose in creation and redemption is to be brought to completion.

In the OT the lifting of the hand was part of oath-taking. In the Song of Moses God himself lifts up his hand to heaven in solemn oath to carry out vengeance upon his adversaries [Deut. 32:40]. It is Dan. 12:7, however, that supplies the interpretive background for this section. There the man clothed in linen who is above the waters of the river raises up both hands toward heaven and swears by him who lives forever that the end shall come in a time, two times, and a half time [three and a half years] when the power of the holy people has finally been broken. Apocalyptic thought has always been concerned with the question, How long until the End? In Daniel one of the angels addresses the man clothed in linen with the query, 'How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled? [Dan.12:6]. The martyrs in Rev. 6:10 asked, 'How long sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood? The answer of the mighty angel is, 'There will be no more delay!'

This expression [Gr. chronos] has sometimes been misunderstood to mean that time will cease. The expression here, however, does not refer to time as a succession of chronological events, rather it means that time has run out, that is , that there will be no further delay. Most early writers interpret this statement as a metaphysical assertion about the end of time as a sequence of events. The translation in the AV ['There shall be time no longer'] reflects this interpretation. This is not the meaning of time here. It would hardly be necessary for an angel to put himself under oath just to make an assertion about the timeless nature of eternity. The end is now to be consummated. Even in eternity, there will be a time relationship in that one event will follow another. Besides, a future kingdom of one thousand years remains [11:15-19 ; 20:1-10].

The oaths of God especially refer to Israel. They embrace both the terrors and the mercies of the Lord. They testify to Israel's captivity, Jerusalems giving up to the Gentiles, and the desolation of the holy house. They testify also to the desolation of Edom and Babylon, and the breaking of the Assyrian in God's land. But they promise also the kingdom of Christ ; no more wrath to Israel, after the time of trouble ; the kingdom to David ; and the bowing of every knee to the Son of God.

In explanation of the statement that their shall be no more delay, verse 7 declares that the sounding of he seventh trumpet, here referred to as the voice of the seventh angel, brings about the completion of the mystery of God as declared to His servants the prophets. The idea of mystery was important in apocalyptic thought. Mysteries were secrets preserved in heaven and revealed to the enraptured apocalyptist. The reference to the mystery of God seems to mean truth concerning God Himself which has not been fully revealed.

It is often overlooked, however, that the mystery is said to have been declared to his servants the prophets. The mystery of God which is declared as subject to fulfillment is unfolded therefore in the Old Testament in the many passages which speak of the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth.

That God has from the beginning willed the complete and final defeat of evil should come as no surprise. The ignorance of God and the disregard of His majestic person which characterize the present age as well as the great tribulation will exist no longer when Christ returns and manifests Himself in glory to the entire earth. In that day all, from the least to the greatest, will know the Lord, that is, know the important facts about Him.

Although the details have not been revealed, the substance has been made known to God's servants the prophets. There is no reason why this designation should be limited to either OT or NT prophets. Seven hundred years before Christ the prophet Amos asserted, 'Surely the sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets' [3:7]. One purpose has run throughout history, and wherever God has revealed his intentions to humankind it has touched upon the Devine promise of ultimate blessing. This is why the hidden purpose of God is said to have been 'gospeled' to the prophets. In Christ, Timothy.


The End Time. Jay, you have several good points about the end time. I would like to help clarify some things that will help make the picture even clearer to you.

AD 70 was in fact the end of Israel's place as a nation in the world until they are grafted back in again before the Coming of Jesus. While it was the end of their calling it was the beginning of the Gentiles being grafted into the olive branch as a wild olive branch. Don't forget that the times of the Gentiles had begun in 606 BC when Israel was carried away captive by Babylon. Daniel sees the vision of the world Gentile Empires that will rule over Israel until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

As you stated part of Matt 24 was fulfilled in AD 70 the rest will be fulfilled in our day. John's focus in Revelation is the very last Gentile powers to rule over Israel right before the coming of the Messiah.

The Jezebel you mentioned is a picture or type of the Great Whore that sits upon the dragon down here at our time because she has caused the nations of the earth to commit fornication with her along with her harlot daughters. That is a clear picture of the ecclesiastical systems joining in federation with the last beastly powers to rule this world for a short space. There will be some kind of great world shaking that will cause the civil powers to look to the Jezebel Church System and ask for them to cover them from the face of Him that sits on the throne.

It is also called Mystery Babylon. It is also headed up by the false prophet, not anti christ as preachers so wrongly apply. The word antichrist is not in the Book of Revelation. A false religious system is not antichrist they are false workers coming in the name of Christ.

There is no doubt in my mind that the only figure who can wield the power and worldwide influence of the man of sin is the POPE of Rome. Not all the POPES but one who is a devil working miracles in the sight of men. Not miracles of the Holy Spirit, but temporary solutions to bring peace to Israel and Jerusalem. economic harmony worldwide, etc. All her harlot daughters are all the Protestant sects who make a beeline back to Rome forsaking their very spirit of Reformation. Continuing to believe what they want but accepting the Pope as the head of the world Council of Churches speaking on their behalf.

When Billy Graham greases the palms of Catholic priests in countries so he can conduct his crusades he has compromised the truth of God's word for secular approval. The Jesuit Order of the catholic Church is one of the most ruthless organizations on American soil. They wield too much influence on the Council of Foreign Relations and the Tri Lateral Commission. Both groups dedicated to the set up of a One World Order. They have to neuter American Power before they can pull off their nefarious schemes.

This is the Jezebel in type of the whore in Revelation. But Jesus is going to do battle with that system and John sees it Fallen and repeats it twice because both the religious and the civil aspect must be destroyed.

This also fulfills the parable where Jesus said two women would be grinding at the mill, a woman is always referred to as a church in the Bible, one will be taken out in judgment the other left to rule and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. The whore False Religious System will be destroyed by Jesus with the brightness of His coming while His church fills the earth and the meek inherit the promises prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

This is also a picture of Jehu and the three eunuchs who he calls out to pitch Jezebel out of the tower. Those three eunuchs are Judah, Israel, and the Church under Jesus rule. Jehu is a picture of Jesus. And Jesus will tread that system under his chariot and John sees it being cast into a winepress for the wrath of God. How perfect are these pictures. Abraham Lincoln stated that the Roman Catholic Church is the greatest threat to American Freedom on American soil.

Look for a war that brings the world to the brink of disaster before the systems form as predicted in the Bible. The Bible said he would put it in their hearts to agree. What else could do that job any better if a threat of nuclear war or perhaps a limited one would occur?

The end time is far different than what most preachers have taught us for years. Most preachers in the churches today will lead their people into the slaughter thinking they are doing the will of God.

Gary Hiles

Dear Sir,

Amazing how you have hit upon the most obvious errors that are made by non preterists in their zeal to pronounce preterists as prophets of error.

You need to go to a preterist site and read literature from men much more gifted than yourself and think twice with an open mind. Even many of the kingdom crowd have realized the truth in the preterist message and have seen that you CANNOT have a FINISHED WORK message without acknowledging that preterism is a given fact. What degree of preterism one desires to partake of is up to them.

What's New at the Preterist Archive -
The Preterist Archive of Realized Escha
International Preterist Association
Questions & Answers / preterism
Preterism And Prophesy

Any question you have is contained in these sites.

jim rapalje

I have been pondering over this issue of salvation, the Holy Spirit, and knowing, or not knowing Jesus. We can have a perfect understanding of doctrine, and it makes absolute sense, in every word and thought. It adds up in scripture, in doctrine etc, etc, etc. But then a spanner gets thrown into the works, because life experience proves it otherwise. (This is not to say that we gauge God's word by experience because that is an open door to the enemy, and a weapon He uses with great agility to get us to not trust God in our lives.)

Take for instance the tribal groups, who when visited by a missionary, which was the first exposure to a white, Christianized person, knew of the God of whom this missionary spoke. These people did not know Him by name, but knew of Him, and not only that, knew His voice distinctly and clearly.

This knowledge of the Lord's existence was not through reading a word, or being preached, as important as these are, but was from a personal revelation from God Himself. This is not a one off example, you will find many such stories of people, having absolutely no contact with the outside world, but still knowing the God of Israel.

I say the God of Israel, because many groups in the world, no, ALL groups of the world have an ideology about the sprit world. Many though, have come from Babylon of old, and has never changed. These others though, have had a profound confrontation with the person of the God-head, whether He be three or one, and it has influenced their lives to the point that they recognized instantly, who this Jesus was the missionaries spoke of.

Not only did they recognize Him, but they had waited patiently for many years for someone to come and share Him with them. Most would also have heard of people, not believing in God, heathens in the true sense of the word, having a brush with death, meeting Jesus in a spiritual realm of which they were totally unaware, and coming back from the dead a changed person, giving their lives totally to God, and spreading the word of His existence wherever they went.

Now the point I am trying to make is, that no matter how comfortable we become in our understanding of doctrine, their is still much yet, that all of us are lacking, in understanding the fullness of God. The God of heaven and earth not only takes time to listen to us, He is forever beckoning to us to commune with Him. We are given the written word of God, and the Rhema word of God, that is that which is spoken from God's spirit straight to ours. This is also a learning experience, and also an area in which satan has access to until we are stronger in our relationship and truly know God's voice. I heard a message once which has profoundly changed my attitude to communing with the Lord.

The Lord in His love for us, every day, sets out a banqueting table, and calls us gently to come and feast with Him and to talk with Him. He sits there in most cases, hour after hour, until finally, He packs up and leaves, broken hearted and lonely. This, when I heard it broke my heart, for I knew it to be true in my life. Even now though, many months after hearing this message, I find again, I have not been as diligent as I should be, and am convicted again, that I have spurned His advances towards me yet again.

A revelation of a truth is wonderful, but it requires a diligent perseverance to nurture and protect it in our lives. The little foxes of life are always trying to steal all that God gives us. In regards to the God head, if it is of one or three, I have struggled with this for a long time. Jesus' words are straight forward, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". Their are others similar to this and I won't repeat them here, you all will be familiar with them.

The one scripture that throws me every time as to the infallibility of the God Head being of one in completion, is when Jesus hung on the cross and cried "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?!" This is the first and I think, only time, He referred to His Father as "My God". Jesus had experienced the dis-fellowship from the Father that we have, and He grieved deeply. If Jesus knew that He had been separated from the God-head, then they could not possibly have been one entire, inseparable entity.

Now if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were one and the same, then how can you explain this dilemma? I put it to the Lord after much deliberation, and He told me this. We are given enough information in scripture to be factual, but enough is left out so that we must go the rest of the way in our walk with Him on pure faith. It is perfectly orchestrated and balanced. He asked me to describe who we are as a man.

I understood what He was asking and told Him that we are body, soul and spirit. He then explained the following. The unregenerate man has a body that is controlled by satan as it belongs to him. It in effect is his temple, (demonic possession of a believer is for another day thank you!!) His soul is the throne on which the enemy sits and is from where he controls us. The spirit is in captivity and in bondage to the hard taskmaster of the enemy.

When we are a regenerate being, the body is a living sacrifice to God, which is scriptural, the soul has been taken by Jesus Himself, and we have entered the time of being filled with Him, it is no longer us but He that lives in us. The spirit has been released and is in total control of us. We are Christ filled, and Holy Spirit filled, and chosen of God. Here is truth revealed. The body is a parallel to God Himself, the soul is the seat that Jesus takes when we relinquish our lives to Him, the spirit is the Holy Spirit Himself, released and able to function as He was always meant to.

The Father exists as a complete entity, enclosed within Him is the Son, Jesus Himself, made of and by God. Jesus existed outside of eternity, but in our time realm. Yes God is a part of this also, but as Jesus existed ONLY in our time dimension while He was in the body of a man, God existed in both eternity still, and our time. (Another instance is when Jesus said that He had to go to His Father so that the Holy Spirit could come). Jesus exists in heaven while the Spirit is active here in our time frame.

How easy it sounds, this finished product. It comes after a lengthy sanctification and purifying process. How long and how hard it is, is completely up to us. This is how the Lord explained to me a greater understanding of the God head. God is the fullness of the God-head, which engulfs that of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit exist out of God, but not apart from it. If God did not exist, neither would Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or us. But even without these, God would still exist. This does not answer the question completely, but it comforted me that what I didn't understand, didn't really matter, that it changed nothing.

The missing bits of our understanding are an integral part of our understanding, does that make sense? The revelation and understanding we have give us the foundation for complete truth, but still yet, it is unbalanced. Much is not yet revealed that will be at The Lord's return. How arrogant is man with the scripture we have, how much more so if we had greater knowledge. This is one of the reasons for the dealing with us being so intense at present, to prepare us for greater revelation, or understanding. We need to be humbled to be able to walk as Jesus did, with the same authority that He had. Our flesh would destroy us and those around us if it were not done so.

I hope that this discourse has not confused you more, but has helped in some way.



One of the things that struck me in the bible one time is that 'all things are of God'. Think of it, 'all things'. If you look in the 1st chapter of Colossians, you'll find an explanation of what these 'all things' are, it means that nothing is excluded.

It means to me what Susannah wrote, which is that no thing, no being exists without God. God created 'all things' by his word, his living word. So 'all things' exists because of God, and 'all things' are sustained in their existence by God. God is the person and the force that keeps everything in existence, in motion, and alive. There is nothing that exists outside of Him.

When it comes to the real issue of who is who, and who is one with whom, I think it all boils down to one thing, and that is relationship. Our God is love, and the fundamental characteristic of love is that it longs for a relationship, such that it flows from one being to the other, and it binds them together. Love is the way of giving yourself completely to another being. True love means that you give everything you have, all of yourself to the other.

Creation is made for 'His good pleasure'. And everything that is created is meant to reveal the existence and glory of God.

I can see how God is manifested as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but also as the manifested sons of God Rom 8 talks about, and as the whole earth when the earth shall be filled with His glory as the waters cover the sea, and finally as the whole creation, when the Son shall deliver the kingdom to the Father, such that God will be all in all. In that final goal (thelos), God has emptied Himself in all of creation, in all things, the grand finally. The love He is, His spirit, has flown back and filled all creation, and His love will be answered and appreciated by everyone. Man created in His image has learned through much hardship to appreciate and respond to the Love of God, and God has come to His goal with creation.

Rom 11:36
For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things, to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

In my view, the love-relationship with God, possible through the sacrifice of Jesus His Son, the Life of Christ initiated and sustained by the Holy Spirit in us, is the way by which God will increase the kingdom, He will increase His expression in creation. In this relation with God, we view different persons or 'personalities', such as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, since God has revealed Himself as such. Each relationship may be different, but they all work together for the purpose of God to express Himself in us towards the goal where God is all in all.



Shepherding -

I feel like admitting that I too thought Jay was being to harsh in taking [the oneness pentecostal] off the list, even told him so. But - I didn't know all the facts about what was going on. And so this morning I prayed - Lord - let me look at this situation through your eyes - apply love to this situation. What I saw was someone (Jay) trying to protect others. From all the communications I have read of Jay's I know how much he loves God and feel that he has allowed God to apply His hand upon his life. Allowed God to guide him. So if he feels strongly that God has said no to this type of discussion being introduced into the group then I believe him.

I thought we were on end time discussion - and maybe this does tie in somehow. In a very vague way - Luke 17:20-23 "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. ....23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, See there: go not after them, nor follow them."

In these last days its probably a good idea not to go there or follow them (false teaching). Definitely pray for them. Especially that God would place someone beside them that talks their language and who will be able to guide them into all truth.


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