Women Apostles?
All but one of the responses this time and the last time concerning
apostles have been from men, I would like to allow the women to have a
voice in this matter now, even though I know that is going against what
Paul has taught in the Bible. The issue here today is women in the
ministry and those that come against women in the ministry. The apostles
were not always right, they quarreled in the book of Acts concerning
legalism so they convened the Jerusalem Council. Maybe it's time for a
New Jerusalem Council.
Oh Lord, help us with this. I find nothing more repugnant to hear that
there are leaders in the church other than Jesus Christ. I am only able
to submit to those that are able to submit. For me to follow another is
to follow only those that are truly following Jesus and that means it is
the example we are following and not the person. To consider the church
in a follow the leader mentality is reminiscent of all the problems and
divisions and errors of the church and the doctrines of men and devils
that we are trying to put away. I must recognize that He is the supreme
Leader and we are the servants and we are to submit to each other as to
the Lord.
There must be a better way than the way that has been taught in the past
by the church, the church is in a mess. I appreciate those in this
edition that have recognized that any true authority in the church must
come from the service and sacrifice of His followers to have any true
leadership. Like Paul, we are to follow him as he follows Christ. Also
in this edition is the issue of women apostles which I think that we
should address before we come to any conclusions about authority. I had
made the decision some time ago not to bring the issue up unless someone
else does. Let me give you some background on this as regards to my
involvement on the issue.
First of all, as regards women apostles is the issue of authority that
we have been discussing. My own stand is that God has not specifically
told me if there are women apostles or not but if there were, I would
not want to be so prejudiced against them as to not recognize one if God
did indeed send her. So in effect, I have left it open for the Lord to
decide and have not been the judge. For the few of you that knew me
before last December, you may know the trouble that this controversy got
me in from an unnamed apostles group just for suggesting that we discuss
the issue. The issue was authority there as well and I was cast out as
evil because I allowed the idea of a gifted woman to prophesy over us
because she felt led to. I did not know that I was doing anything wrong
but was rebuked in the name of Jesus, another so-called apostle had
called my wife demon possessed when the Lord spoke through her to me
concerning the controversy and the Lord had promptly told me to separate
from the group and start the latter rain list with Him in charge as the
acknowledged leader to be able to fulfill my calling. It is still my
belief that if a woman prophesies to a man, that it is the spiritual
authority of Jesus that is behind the voice of the woman and this is not
taking authority over a man in any way. Paul of course, would allow a
woman to prophesy but not allow her to speak or teach in the church. We
all know that all the apostles in the New Testament were men but this is
now and that does not decide the issue.
I know that this is separate, but what of the men that thought me evil
(and contentious) for merely bringing up the issue of women in the
ministry? For sure, I am supposed to love these so-called apostles and
put aside my bitterness and pray for them but what am I to think? This
is still an issue of authority, however, the fact is that I see them as
being terribly ignorant and stupid, lacking in wisdom and knowledge,
usurping authority and setting themselves up in a false position as
something that they are not. There were loving people in the group but
the ones that were divisive and pushed their own false doctrine agendas
were glaringly false and really stood out. No matter who is right in the
matter of women apostles, can those that cannot love us and accept us as
Jesus does be truly called as apostles simply through their ignorance?
Or can it be possible that those that honestly believe that there are
not women apostles be so right that the issue would divide us and think
that others that even mention it are sent from satan? As fantastic as
this sounds, these things actually happened to me and this is the
attitude that they have. They believe that they are true apostles. Some
of them are but the leader of the group has continually resisted any
kind of discussion or correction or criticism or reasoning from anyone
simply because he thinks because God has called him, he has the final
word. He has said that God specifically told him that there are no women
called as apostles. I have heard others say that God has told them that
there are women as apostles. I will continue to keep the matter open and
whatever is right, we should not be going around judging who is an
apostle based on it, but when the lying, hateful, judgmental ones do
appear, we should be able to recognize them as false and not follow
after them just because they say that they have apostolic authority. An
apostle is drawing many to himself because he says that he has the
command from the Lord to bring apostles together. I believed and trusted
him that what he said was true for as long as I could, because I loved
him and wanted to believe, now I cannot. Now, am I wrong in learning
that there should not be chief apostles to govern us but that we should
be submitting to each other as in the Lord? Of course not, but what of
those that presume to bring everyone under them and invoke the pits of
hell on those that disagree? What of those that are being misled? Say
nothing? Too late.
Mentioned below concerning rulers is "who is making the rules?" Peter
tells me in my Bible that God is no respecter of persons, he may have
been talking of nationality but it should apply to sex as well. Paul
also teaches in Galatians 3:26: "For ye are all the children of God by
faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into
Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all
one in Christ Jesus." Neither male nor female seems clear to me but
inconsistent with the other things that Paul taught about women.
I believe that Jesus is the One gathering the apostles together in these
last days, as well as the rest of us, to a unity that cannot be of any
one ministry or of any one man or of any one group or sex or
denomination or church in any way except in the sense that we are the
Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head and us as members in that body.
The Head does the thinking and we follow that direction. Jesus will be
the true shepherd and will gather us to Him by His spirit. We must
realize that there will be others in these last days as if from a
command from the Lord and speaking in His name, deceiving many and will
try to do exactly what these false apostles are doing, telling us it is
time and getting us to follow after them. Jesus told us not to. If God
has truly called them, they would show the fruits of the spirit and be
submissive and loving - hatefulness, judgmental attitudes, condemnations
to the pits of hell, despising dreams, visions and prophetic utterances
and calling them demonic are not the fruits of the spirit but rather
blasphemy of the spirit. Whether there are women apostles or not, may or
may not be a valid issue to discuss but if this is the spirit that comes
from even bringing up the issue, then there can be no other conclusion
to make but that they are false and cannot come to the love and humility
necessary to be able to come to one accord. As For myself, I must ignore
them, do what God has called me to do and pray for peace and
understanding. If they are truly of the Lord, He will carry them along,
if not, oh well. I am now ready to leave that completely behind and move
forward. Pray for me that all of the hurt and bitterness will be taken
away. What it makes me want to do is work that much harder and faster to
do the work of restoration that Jesus has called us to do but we must be
very careful in this. The mistake that others have made is to move in
the flesh before God's own time, this is where other restoration
movements have proved themselves false. We are to be led of the spirit
in all things. Enough said on false apostles.
Again I will bring up what Jesus has said to His disciples which were
also His twelve apostles:
I will repeat it once more on the issue of authority: "IT SHALL NOT BE
SO AMONG YOU." How are we able to explain these words away? To me, this
is very clear, as plain as you can get. Why is it that we must come up
with all kind of reasons and explanations to justify the idea of
rulership and authority in the church? I understand that Jesus also said
the He has given His servants the authority to rule, but as been very
well said below, what kind of authority, what kind of rule. There are
some good answers this time and they are used to reconcile the words of
Jesus with the words of Paul. We need to bring them together and for us
to speak as One. Everyone has an opinion. The one that counts is from
the word of God according to the spirit. I am not yet convinced that the
apostles are to govern and rule but if we are to be the representatives
of Jesus, then His authority and rule are to be governed through us. We
just need to refine exactly what this means without replacing
servanthood with headship, ministrations with leadership and submission
with governing. Read those responses.
The argument against women apostles are that women should not have
authority over a man, but if Jesus said that it should not be so among
us, then how can we say that men should have authority over men either.
I don't know if we can come to agreement on this, if Paul had said the
same things as Jesus, there would not be a problem with this, but the
fact is that he didn't. As far as women in the ministry, this is what
Paul has to say about it:
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every
man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of
Christ is God.
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
I am not yet convinced that there should be leaders in the church
besides Jesus. If we are truly following His lead and we are serving Him
and allowing Him to be the leader by leading through us, then the church
is going in the right direction. He is doing the leading through us. If
there is to be governorship in the church, then Jesus is governing over
the minds and hearts of His followers and uses us to be the examples of
His life here on earth today. This is the kind of leadership and
authority that I can accept and I am still open to what you have to say
but we have already heard from a lot of men on the issue, let's hear
from the women, men too but especially the women. And do not be afraid
of Paul, we are just discussing things here, we are not evil for
discussing no matter what those under the letter may say, even if we are
wrong, we are just trying to get to the truth.
The first here below is a prophetic article of Marsha Burns. In it, she
quotes Paul as speaking of the natural man and the spiritual man. Can we
really believe that women are not included in what Paul is teaching
here? According to Paul, women are not to teach a man or speak at all,
just listen. So much for Marsha's words. I am sorry but I have learned a
lot from women as well as men because I have a teachable spirit, want to
listen to the Lord and do not discriminate or question how God as able
to speak through people no matter what sex they were born into. Are we
to dismiss the words of Marsha Burns because of Paul, or are we to
re-evaluate the liberty that Jesus has brought us and able to believe
that He really does want to bring us to higher ground and into rich
revelation as sheep into higher pastures. Are we going to follow Jesus
or the authority of men as if a command from the Lord. The issue is
still authority but now I say that women are not to have authority over
us either but rather Jesus should have all the authority, all the honor,
all the glory, all the leadership and the government of the church
should be on His shoulders. Once we are glorified like He is, then
things will be different.
Jay.
Words from the Lord to Marsha Burns
I am gathering you, My precious people and bringing you to higher ground
spiritually and into rich revelation, much the same as a shepherd
gathers
his sheep and leads them to higher pastures.
For, where you have been the waters have become fouled and the land
overgrazed, and you have begun to fight over what little is left. You
have
been over the same ground and remained in the same revelations until
they
have become religious doctrines.
Many of you don't even know that I have greater things in store for you.
You have forgotten what fresh food and clear water look like, and have
even lost your appetite for the rare delicacies found in untrodden
ground.
I am now leading My flock to greener pastures. Will you follow? Will
you
stir up your appetite and begin to hunger and thirst and desire greater
things in the kingdom?
Leave behind the strife and contention, jealousy and anger, criticism
and
judgment of your old stomping grounds. Come, follow Me!
1 Corinthians 2:9-14, "But as it is written: 'Eye has not seen, nor ear
heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has
prepared for those who love Him.' But God has revealed them to us
through
His Spirit.
For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For
what
man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in
him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who
is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given
to
us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom
teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things
with
spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the
Spirit
of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because
they are spiritually discerned.
Hi Jay,
I have so little time that I rarely read much of the discussion. This
time
I've been reading concerning Apostles and have great interest. The Lord
has
shown me in the last five or so years that I have an apostolic
anointing.
It is difficult for me, as I desire to be faithful.
I have not really understood what it means for ME to have an apostolic
anointing. I feel that it is such a HEAVY thing that I cannot help but
fall
short. I believe that I have come to some conclusions concerning the
whole
thing. I have always had a great desire to be on the level of anyone and
could not stand to think that someone could not talk to me about
something.
I am the leader of a Girl Scout troop, 3rd graders and have had them
since
1st grade. I believe I am operating in the apostolic anointing in that.
If a person is a singer, then they must sing from the passion of the
spirit
of God within them and when they do they will BE a singer. The heavens
and
earth declare the glory of God. The sun and earth and waves of the sea
manifest the glory of God by doing what they were ordained to do. They
do a
work every day just by the earth turning on it's axis. I believe that
when
a person does the work of an apostle, it is no different than that. The
apostle operates out of the passion within the spirit of God, the
manifestation will be apostolic in nature. To God be the Glory.
Cathy Grant
Thank you for including me in your email discussion group...I pray that
the Lord will use me to make worthwhile
contributions.
As far as the question of "modern" apostles go, ie., their validity
and role and authority, it would appear
obvious that nothing which God has seen fit to grace the Body of
Christ with from the beginning - whether
offices or gifts - has ever been removed, regardless what the church
has believed and taught throughout the
various ages. Thus, just as there were apostles in the beginning
other than the original disciples (Paul
being perhaps the greatest example), we should expect there to be at
the end.
Their role also would be unchanged, although just as with prophets
and teachers (and others), we should expect it to be
appropriate to the situation and times.
Likewise with their authority, that too we should expect to be
unchanged. However, from the perspective of the one
who believes himself an apostle, it would appear wise to consider a
caution, I believe: What is true spiritual authority?
How did Jesus approach and reveal His authority while on the earth?
How did Paul? And how was that authority
revealed to others so that it was recognized? Was it not in the
power with which they taught and in which they moved and
from which they acted? Was it not in the self-sacrificing love
which was evident in all that they were...In the fact that their
entire lives were poured out for those they served, ie.,
"governed"?
Perhaps the best answer to these questions is given by Jesus in his
many teachings on humility and obedience. Those who
are the true leaders in the Body of Christ - regardless of what
title is given them - are those who serve. And their serving
is undoubtedly to the other members, but first and foremost it is
the Lord Jesus Who is served - and through Him, the
Father. Those who seek the offices or the gifts for their own sake,
or as something separate from Him, will sooner or later
find themselves in spiritual trouble. As with all things spiritual,
the most important aspect is seeking the Giver, allowing Him
to lead as He will in His time. This is perhaps the most difficult
thing to do, stay patient in our calling until He tells us it is
time - and then walking only in the light which He has given us - no
more and no less.
Hopefully this will add something to the discussion.
In His service,
Stan Dommert
The fundamental difficulty we have today with the idea of apostolic
authority rest in our misunderstanding of what authority is all about.
Jesus taught that true authority manifests itself in servanthood. The
last will be the first, the greatest will be the least, etc.
Paul used his authority as an Apostle to discipline the churches which
he
planted and those whom he had contact with. He did not abuse that
authority, but certainly did not hesitate to use it when necessary.
yet Paul considered himself to be the "chief of sinners, and the least
of
the Apostles".
A true apostle will have authority, but that authority will be evident
only as he displays the humility and servants heart which God gifts His
apostles with to accomplish His work for His kingdom.
Anyway...
Here is an interesting topic that I am currently wrestling with and
perhaps the group would enjoy wrestling with as well....
the humanity of Jesus....
Till later,
Mark O.
"BUT MAY THE GOD OF ALL GRACE, WHO CALLED US TO HIS ETERNAL GLORY BY
CHRIST JESUS, AFTER YOU HAVE SUFFERED A WHILE, PERFECT, ESTABLISH,
STRENGTHEN AND SETTLE YOU. TO HIM BE THE GLORY AND THE DOMINION FOREVER
AND EVER. AMEN" 1PETER 5: 10 - 11
Dear Brother Jay;
I believe that some Apostles are set in the body strictly for
government; These are not necessarily the "Church Planters" though. I
believe (this is my opinion) that there are different orders of Apostles
and
Prophets; Not all are called in exactly the same manner, to do the
exact
same things. For example; We see in the book of Isaiah; "Above it
stood
the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face,
and
with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly (Isa 6:2) ."
This, I believe, is a picture of the Ministry of Apostles and Prophets
in
the body of Christ.. The "Two wings" that cover the face represent the
governmental Apostles and Prophets, the two that cover the feet are the
"Foot Soldiers" or, "Foot washing" Apostles and Prophets, the two that
produce the elements of "Flight (Lift, and Thrust)" are, firstly, the
Prophets who have the ability to "Lift" the Church (Woman) into heavenly
places, and the Apostles who have the ability to move (or, Thrust) her
forward quickly into the things of God. The Apostles and Prophets who
cover
the Face are administrative type of Ministries, while they may not have
the
ability to do the kind of "Foot work" that the Church planters do, they
are
necessary to provide the kind of academic, scholarly, and authoritative
type
of leadership that the church needs to pull herself together in these
last
days. The "Foot soldiers" are a more common and everyday type of
Apostles
and Prophets; They are so common in fact, that they may even look (on
the
outward) like the very people they are attempting to Minister to. Those
among us who are gifted toward "Lift and Thrust" are those who are
probably
the most popular and well known, but they are not the Church Planters or
the
Governors, they are the "Prophesiers and the Revealers" of the Divine
Word
of God, without which the Church will never get off the ground. I wrote
an
article touching on this subject back in November of '99 entitled "Two
Wings;" It can be viewed at:
http://members.tripod.com/~great1eagle/id2.htm
Like I said, this is only my opinion :-)
Very sincerely, Your Brother in Christ;
Robert Burgess
Dear Jay,
in THE DIDACHE there is a strange warning....
11:3 But concerning the apostles and prophets, thus do ye according to
the
doctrine of the Gospel.
11:4 Let every apostle who cometh unto you be received as the Lord.
11:5 He will remain one day, and if it be necessary, a second; but if he
remain three days, he is a false prophet.
11:6 And let the apostle when departing take nothing but bread until he
arrive at his resting-place; but if he ask for money, he is a false
prophet.
in other words an "apostle" comes in because there is a "job" to be
done.
Paul wrote much of the New Testament correcting and instructing what had
been taught earlier. could the ''apostle'' be nothing more than a
servant
sent
to fix something ''broken''. or a workman sent to ''clean'' up a mess?
the
greek
term itself implies "a sent one" similar to the OT PROPHETS sent as
messengers
that ran between GOD and a stiff-necked people. so some wrote books as
directed by GOD and we have the OT.
man says ''apostles'' were church planters. man says ''apostles'' rule
churches.
the first century writings do not actually support these ideas. Paul was
an
evangelist
when he traveled from city to city. he ''taught'' and he ''pastored''
then
handed it
to ''local'' rule. John ''oversaw'' the churches in Asia Minor. does
that
mean he
ruled, or that he was available for damage control?
actually part of the problem is accepting the idea of a five fold
ministry.
why?
it is just one verse in the entire body of the WORD.
but so is 1 Corinthians 12:28.....
i will not even open the can of worms that miracles opens up. likewise
healings.......
i know i am going contrary to most, but why stop now. when JESUS taught
about
those servants that will be judged as good and faithful only on HIS
RETURN
does
it speak of "rule". in Matthew 24 there is an interesting delineation of
what makes
a "wise and faithful servant''. i leave you with it to ponder. lay some
meat before
you and all involved with this discussion.
Hi Jay and group,
Concerning Ruling and Governing
I guess you could call us rulers if you define it in the Biblical sense
(not
as a title but in defining our Kingdom responsibility). Hebrews 13: 7,
17
states, "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken
unto
you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their
conversation."
(v. 17) "Obey [yield to, comply with, trust] them that have the rule
over
you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that
must
give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that
is
unprofitable for you."
It is obvious that there is a divine order of authority and submission
in
the Church. It has nothing to do with a hierarchy/laity order or
Nicolaitan
(defined as conquering the laity) doctrine. Neither is it a "lording
over"
as Jesus said and you pointed out. These are aberrational forms of the
real
thing. The authority we are commanded to comply with and submit to in
the
body of Christ is an authority that undergirds, edifies, and helps bring
us
to perfection - unto the image of Christ (Ephesians 4: 11-13). By
submitting to God-ordained authority, we are not lorded over but under
girded! Standing on the outside and looking in at this order, one may
only
see the aspect of this authority as being over us. But when we submit
to
it, it comes under us as a servant and helps uphold us through our
pilgrimage in this life.
The word "rule" in our passage is correctly translated according to my
findings. According to Strong's it is translated governor twice in the
Authorized Version.
Revelation 2: 27 reveals Jesus as the one who will rule all nations with
a
rod of iron. This is a different Greek word than the former. Its
primary
meaning is to feed, to tend a flock, and keep sheep. To govern or rule
is
the secondary meaning. Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone by which
everything
else is measured. His rulership or government is the precedent. All
other
Church rule or government must align itself with Christ's Shepherd rule
and
government.
As far as apostles governing, consider this question. Can apostles
heal,
cast out devils, and manifest signs and wonders? The answer is
obviously
yes. However, one must qualify that answer with this understanding:
Jesus
is the healer, the deliverer, and the one who does signs and wonders
through
us. He is also the governor, nevertheless, that does not mean that
apostles
do not govern. He uses apostles to govern! Psalm 110: 2 proclaims,
"The
LORD shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Zion [the Church]. Rule
Thou
in the midst of Thine enemies!"
God used Moses to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. God was the
leader, but would it be wrong to call Moses a leader? Jesus is the
Great
Shepherd, yet, 1 Peter 5: 2 states, "Feed the flock of God which is
among
you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not
for
filthy lucre, but of a ready mind." It is interesting to note that the
word
"feed" here is the same Greek word for "rule" as used in reference to
Jesus
(Rev. 2: 27). Some translations have it: "Shepherd the flock".
Paul used the "rule" he had over the Church to instruct and to bring
correction and order. This was not lording over anyone because he had
proved his apostleship and they accepted it. His ministry is a good
example
of one who has a governing position in the Church, yet, was able, at the
same time, to cause the people to follow Christ and not him. All true
spiritual authority administers life and glorifies Jesus. In addition,
it
was obvious the Jerusalem council (made up of apostles) oversaw the
early
Church as it began to grow and spread to other cities and eventually to
the
gentiles. They made governing decisions that are still affecting us
today!
As I said before, we have no authority if it is not embraced by those
who
would benefit from it. You cannot make anyone submit to you, but you
can
win them by laying down your life for them. God-ordained authority will
be
recognized as such by those who truly know the Lord. Such authority
will
manifest Christ in His death and life, and His meekness and lowliness.
Finally, greater responsibility involves greater authority. God uses
people
as extensions of His authority and rule in the earth.
More thoughts later.
Blessings,
My own heart rejoices to read the comments by those who have contributed
to your latest posting. No excessive legalism, no divisiveness...and
the role of the apostle within the church is very important...and
therefore an excellent understanding of this role is valuable to the
church.
I see something missing, however, in the comments made so far. Perhaps
the discussion simply has not covered this ground, yet. Let me break
the
ice here.
Government always carries with it an element that can only be properly
described as punishment. The humble, spiritual leadership and
administration that are also essential components to good government
within the church have already been mentioned. Mr. Patterson's comments
establish the groundwork (very well) for a discussion of such a concept
as punishment within the church.
I recognize that, although punishment is not fun to me (either to
receive or to deliver), it is a service - when exercised in humility.
The necessity of punishment I will not argue. I believe the apostle
Paul does so well enough himself, in his comments to the church of
Corinth (regarding the man who was intimate with a woman that could be
described as "his father's wife"), and in his comments about governors
in his epistle to the Romans.
The character and the nature of punishment within the church I am
willing to argue (i.e., discuss).
One particular question that I have yet to find an answer for is this:
is the degree of punishment within the church limited to excommunication
(after the fashion of Paul's directive re. the man at Corinth, not the
Catholic version). Or,...is the leadership of the church within
Christ's authority to exercise punishments for moral sins after the
fashion described within The Torah?
I am impressed by this one observation. Although the Hebrews were
directed, were ORDERED by the Lord to obey his word, they also ACCEPTED
the directive (see the last chapters in Deuteronomy). This matches well
with the statements made by the others that pastors (and apostles, etc.)
rule over those who willing accept their leadership.
Well,...is the degree of punishment that is permitted within a group of
people what makes one group a cult and another a church? I don't think
so. In fact, I have to consider that the church leadership does not
service God's people when the church leadership refuses to apply
punishment for sin in the fashion that God ordered. To excommunicate a
person from the church, when God's word directs that that person is to
be physically punished, is to presume to take God's place in the
government of the church.
I hope that the example I provide is not too extreme; in fact, I hope
that you and the others who read this may see how love may be
demonstrated in the example. The example: a drunkard within the
church. Ummmm,...I do not mean a man or woman who is drunk AT church,
but rather the common average alcoholic - who ALSO professes Christ as
Lord, as Savior. What is to be preferred here? Drunkeness is an
obvious sin, I would say, and the PRACTICE of such merits punishment
within the church, when that person is within the church - because the
practice of it tarinishs Christ's name, and ruins the life of the person
who practices it.
What punishment? How is it to be delivered? I would say that
excommunication is very much the wrong choice. The person certainly
needs loving support and dedicated, earnest care. I say also that the
person needs reason to be afraid. "Tough love" is a phrase I have heard
of before, and I believe it applies to this example. The person who
practices this particular sin must have both care AND punishment, much
as a child does, so that that person's WILL may be strengthened.
In the case of loving government, I recognize that the one to BE
punished must be willing to receive the punishment - from the one who is
to deliver it. Presuming that the ones to DELIVER punishment are the
leaders of the church, an agreement must exist between the leadership
and those subject to this government. The nature, character and the
roles of the persons must be understood and accepted - and I know that
the Scriptures provide answers and examples that ARE agreeable.
But let me not get far away from the concept that the delivery of
punishment IS a service, when performed without arrogance or pride.
This is communicated very well in the Lord's instruction to the Hebrews
that a man is not to be beaten with a stick more than 40 strokes - and
why? so that the one receiving punishment is not despised in the eyes of
the one delivering punishment. This compassionate statement is SO
AWESOME,...and most certainly is not found in Hammurabi's code! (or any
other body of law, as far as I know).
The one delivering punishment is not to despise the one receiving it.
"Except for the grace of God, there go I" is a phrase that comes to
mind,...but at the same time, the sin of the one delivering punishment
is not to PREVENT that one from...performing his duty. His service.
Completely without regard for him or herself.
In those cases where the one who is practicing a sin refuses to repent
and/or receive punishment, I believe excommunication is appropriate.
After all, that person's own choice demonstrates the unwillingness to be
subject to the authorities in question.
In the case of NON-loving government, like that we observe in civil
governments, and like that we observe in God's dealing with unrighteous
peoples, kings and nations - a willingness to agree to punishment is not
necessary. The punishment has the character of destruction, rather than
rehabilitation.
The example I have described is not an extreme one. I assert that for
any other example that anyone else might consider extreme, - the
Scriptures still provides for an answer. I admit, however, that at
least one answer that is provided is one that people will often refuse -
i.e., capital punishment.
As for my own self, I have decided, as one who professes Christ, that if
I should ever take homosexuality as a practice, I am willing to be
killed. Ditto for those few other moral sins that are clearly described
as deserving capital punishment. Even if I should prophecy falsely, I
will allow myself to be killed.
By whom? By those men to whom I am accountable. They know who they are
(although I do have to remind them, sometimes!)
Please, do not consider arguing about my own decision. The nature of
the decision is open for discussion, of course, since everyone must
decide. I have described my own decision to communicate several
things. I will practice what I preach - or I will be punished as I have
preached. I must - I KNOW I MUST - be afraid. So I think twice, three
times, sometimes for MONTHS before I prophecy. I live in another
conflict, a spiritual one, that is shared by many others in the church,
too - in that I am first accountable to Christ, and secondly accountable
to the church, and then accountable to the civil government. The
challenges of this conflict are known to me; I wish to communicate this,
too.
The issue of discussion is the governance of apostles. The statements I
have read in your posting are excellent, and I do rejoice in the truth I
read there. Umm,...I think I should mention that I am not a "Christian
Scientist", or a Jehovah's Witness, either. Shoot, I am not even a
Mormon. Some groups of people have from time to time pronounced
policies are based on the ideas of church government, civil
(dis)obedience, and these groups may come to the mind of the reader as
he/she considers what I have said here; I would like to assure the
reader than I cannot lay claim to the title of any of these religious
organizations.
I am pretty sure than I am a man. I do claim Christ, and that is about
as far as I'll go in making any claims. I hope what is presented here
is of value to the reader. Good fortune to you, Mr. Atkinson.
TheSilverPaladin
May 4, 2000
Matthew 20, "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion
over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it
shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let
him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be
your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but
to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered,
dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered
dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be
a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the
image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of
the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman
without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the
woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God
uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long
hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is
given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom,
neither the churches of God.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the
man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue
in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
May 3, 2000
the last time i wrote you was some time ago and i have watched your
discussions
about Babylon and such without any thought of "jumping" in. but as i
read
the original
post that began this discussion i was "disturbed" in my spirit. not sure
why
exactly,
but the response so far to your question makes me wonder what degree of
variance
is out there.
frankly i am tired of people delineating "church authority" and "being
in
authority".
what it basically boils down to who makes the rules. if apostles "rule"
they
make the
rules. same goes for
pastors...prophets...bishops...elders...deacons....etc.
the only
problem with this is the fact it is the source for "doctrines of men".
where
almost all
''religion" is birthed.
personally i have to stick with the Centurion....a pagan with "faith".
he
spoke of being
''under authority", not creating authority. what is interesting is JESUS
understood
and related because HE too was under authority. HE did nothing...said
nothing...that
HE HAD NOT SEEN THE FATHER DO. can we state that we are living and
acting
as JESUS, only desiring to please THE FATHER.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings,
helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers
of
miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all
interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more
excellent way.
in this verse are eight demarcations. some might say 3 offices and five
gifts but
that is a lame argument. the way the language looks, gifts refer solely
to
''healings''.
how do you distinguish "governments'' as a gift. or "miracles'' as an
''office''?
it refers to "elders" as "helps'' refers to "deacons". these are not
gifts,
they are
offices of responsibility and accountability.
Matthew 24:44-51 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye
think
not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant,
whom
his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due
season? 46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall
find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler
over
all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart,
My
lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellow
servants,
and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall
come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is
not
aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion
with
the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (KJV)
selah
old dog
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