Women and Islam
The extremism of the Taliban, vicious Palestinian hatred and the murderous actions of the jihad in Indonesia are the exceptions, not the rule. They are not true Muslims according to the traditions of Mohammed, neither are those that oppress women. Much like the extreme fundamentalists in Christian sects who rely on the letter rather than the spirit, a Muslim fundamentalist of the sort that we can denounce is stupid by nature. They don't want their women smarter than they are so they cannot allow them to be educated or to get a job for that would prove their worth and challenge the male dominated role of superiority and subjugation over women. This is the fanatical fringe element of Islam, not all Muslims are this stupid.
Mohammed wanted to teach modesty in women and commanded that women wrap their outer garments over themselves in the presence of men. Their nakedness is shameful so this is good teaching. The stupidity of fanaticism will have their women severely punished if their face or even an ankle is exposed, that is bad application of a good teaching. There are many more examples of the subjugation, prejudice and oppression of women by the fanatic fringe but let's move on.
The eastern world of 1500 years ago gave little rights to women, Mohammed taught equality beyond what many Western cultures enjoy even today. Did he go far enough? No, women are considered unclean, inferior, discriminated against, not given the same rights in inheritance or divorce. Muslims however, need to learn what we have learned to rid ourselves of the legalistic traditions of men. Those who walk in the power of the Holy Spirit are constantly being taught new things but the Muslims do not generally see this in us, they have seen Christians under the fleshly powers of pride and false authority. The conservative traditions that keep any religionist shackled to the past is broken through once the simple concepts of spiritual freedom and progressive revelation are divinely understood. The spiritual freedom that comes through grace and truth is hard to understand when you are enslaved mind, body, spirit and soul to the law. Legalistic Muslims, Christians and Jews alike need to discover these great truths just like we had to find them, through the prophetic witness, the testimony of the gospel and the law of love. Believe me, there is enough of God's grace to go around but it is up to those under grace to bring them the truth and that means more laborers in the field that are sent from the Lord, not from the bias of false authority and Christian prejudice.
I am trying real hard to be objective about the relationships with the Muslim man and his woman but find it even harder to accept the prejudicial teachings of many Christians on the subject. There are problems with Mohammed's teaching concerning women but most of the abusive teachings come from the Hadith traditions and not the Koran. Basic to the Koran is the protection of women and provision for the wives. Mohammed teaches that men have a certain degree over women but so does the apostle Paul who is also criticized for teaching that wives should be subject to their men. Through progressive revelation, most Christians have given women more freedom than the first century cultural traditions have allowed for, so should Islam. Mohammed has been criticized by others for referring to women as "tilth" or fields to plow in sexual relations which is nothing more than what was revealed through Jeremiah referring to an unfaithful woman as a polluted land (Jer 3:1). My Quran commentary explains that we sow the seed to reap the harvest but he chooses the time and does not cultivate out of season or exhaust the soil. The most damaging indictment toward Mohammed is that he teaches that if a woman is feared to be disloyal or of ill conduct, she is to be admonished, then sexual relations are to be withheld and lastly beaten. My version of the Koran parenthetically inserts "(and last) beat them (lightly)". This of course lends itself to abuse and there is no excuse for spousal abuse no matter what the source or the degree.
To blame Islam for the sins of Moslems is just as dumb as blaming the Christians of today because Richard the Lion-hearted wielded the sword and the cross against Moslems almost a thousand years ago. The fact is that many Christian men use the Bible to oppress women, just as Moslems use the Koran and Hadith. It is a fact of life that many men abuse women and is wrong in every circumstance. It is the law of love that should bring us to unity and this goes against it.
Christians will not be the only ones that will be judged according to the doctrines of demons and the traditions of men. The Hadith should be denounced by coming to consensus, love, reason and revelation and that makes it incumbent upon Muslims to accept progressive revelation just like errant Christians. According to the Hadith, women are lacking in mind and religion, they are a bad omen and an affliction, harmful to men and the majority in hell are women. These things did not come from the true God but from the dark recesses of the minds of ignorant men.
Many fundamentalist Christians and Moslem fundamentalists alike think that revelation ceased when their scriptures were completed, one with the New Testament and one with the Koran and Hadith. Are we the only ones that God speaks to today and reveals His will? Or are there Muslims also that can hear the true God of heaven and have the courage to buck the traditions of men?
The responses this time are at http://latter-rain.com/archive/11-15a-2001.htm There are less this time than at any time but that's OK, Islam is a hard question to answer and a hard answer to question. I would like to carry this on with one more topic and that is the difference between Christianity and Islam. What are the fundamental issues that separate us? One is the trinity, another is the Bible, what are some more? Moslems believe in Jesus as a prophet but not the Son of God. Moslems believe in the virgin birth, if Jesus had no earthly father, who was His father? Jesus considered Himself more than a Lord to us; He was our brother, which makes us also sons of God. How can we explain this to ones that approach us as if we are unbelievers and infidels?
Jay
Just keep it simple. Love conquers all. Do not fear just love and praise as you intercede NOW AS NEVER BEFORE THAT THEY WILL HEAR THE ONE TRUE YAHWEH GOD AS THEY ARE IN THIS HOLY TIME FOR THEM. Yahweh God will do it for many in visions, dreams etc. and your loving thoughts and not hindered thoughts will help them more than anything else. Bind hindered thoughts from these people God loves so nothing hinders them from receiving what Yahweh God is doing for them in answer to our loving and caring prayer. Bind hindering words too. God Bless you. Thank you for your time.
Rev Joan Ann
www.warriorbridesministry.com
My dear friends. Strangely even though i was one with words of caution, G_d is opening my eyes to something. Jacob bowed low to his brother Esau after wrestling with an Angel or should we say G_d. Yes he was the chosen but he had sinned against his brother by deceiving their father.
Is it possible that we should be repenting for our part as Christians in what we have shown to the people of Ishmael? They believe in righteous living yet we have abused at times the grace of G_d. They have seen hypocrisy in many of us. Esau is probably heavily mixed into Ishmael by now.
As we, especially myself, begin to live the life that shows the world that G_d can not only save us but CHANGE us, then Islam and the rest of the World may stand up and take notice. Let us pray for change in us and that G_d will soften the hearts of the Muslims.
I believe that G_d will choose people from this nation and from even Egypt. I saw this is Isaiah, forgive me I cannot remember where.
There will be a day when we will be one in Christ. Some will choose to not accept but many will choose the Messiah. Ezekiel's bones will soon be brought to life. Let us agree with G_d on this and be willing to be humbled before the World and repent for our many years of not showing Christ's love.
love you all in Christ name
Hi Jay!
I know that sometimes I am so direct and short speech that it can be misunderstood as loveless or careless. I don't mean it. For me there is no difference between a Moslem or Christian when you talk about being people. Aren't they all people that need God's love and grace? Buddhist, Spiritists, Satanists and others "ists" don't need it in the same way?
We are all sinners and all needing! there is no difference, but one! Christians found a way that in spite of being sinners they are acceptable in the presence of God. Because they are better people? Not at all. But, because God provided (Jeovah Jire) it through Jesus; and by faith we received that provision. Some people, are not just not accepting, but rejecting and fighting against it. Killing who dares to announce to them the supply God has offered.
To accept Godīs provision means to reject any other man provision. Why? Because God did it this way, so no one can boast. Are there nominal Christians that say they are in, but they are not? Of course; and here there is a funny thing I have noticed in the list. It is very common people to use others mistakes to justify their own, but in the list I read the other way round, people attempting to justify others because of ours mistakes. They say donīt the institutional church or the nominal christian do the same? And it seams that because we miss perfection others are justified to miss it as well.
Come on... We are serving a perfect God. Lord of love, but Lord of justice in the same proportion, and He is demanding love in the first place, but does not forget justice. Jesus said "the Holly Spirit will convince man of sin, justice and judgement". All shall be judge if do not accept Godīs provision.
Now going to the point of women of Islam. I lived near by some Islamic people and was very difficult to approach men (my experience, do not mean that all moslem men are difficult to approach) while their wives were always at my house talking to my wife, when I was not at home. They were very curious about our way of life and that included our faith. They had few opportunities to know the world apart from their husbands and took all they could. My wife proclaimed the gospel to them in a very simple way, quoting the bible and Jesus while she listened to the problems women were having and when talking about our relationship. One of the women (from Algeria if I am not mistaken) even participated once a while of small bible study group I had at home.
I will never Know (in eternity for sure I will) if that resulted in any reflection about their faith, but for sure the women were more open to receive the gospel than man. That is not difficult to understand, after all, in moslem paradise there is no place for women, while man will be served by beautiful virgins. I have heard stories of women that in their dreams, Jesus appears and introduce himself as the savior of the world and this women has convinced the whole family and transformed the whole village through the power of God.
Certainly, the women are the point, even in christianity, there are more women coming than men, and through them the whole family.
Marcos - Brasil.
Hi all,
There is still a temptation to examine the errors of the past to try to see a way of putting it right in the flesh. Notice the "revivalspeak" - the notion that a return to old methods imperfectly remembered: thumping the pulpit, raising the voice, pointing the finger etc. is what is missing from modern preaching and therefore needed as we gaze at the harvest fields.
But the Kingdom of God will not come with our careful observation, because it is within us. Careful observation is what gives rise to formulae for success: it is a short step from here to forming committees and drawing up agendas for a style of outreach to "beat the rest". But people are not numbers, and formulae produce numerical harvests only, enhanced with wishful thinking and cooking the books. But there are few changed hearts.
Now is not a time to look backwards into analysis and self-analysis. Something new is happening and we must be ready to smell the scent on the breeze which tells us that the time is right. We've had our sorrows. We've had our wildernesses. We've sown in many tears. What are the signs that things are changing?
Our joy is coming back. It is being restored. It is coming back as we come back to God. It is coming back as our will is re-aligned with God's will so that the things the Lord wants, we want. The things that please Him, please us. The things that make Him smile, make us smile. Do you notice this? Do you begin to feel almost SELFISH as you take pleasure in seeing prayers answered, until you see that they are only answered because it is HIS WILL that they are answered? See John 15:11; John 16:20-24; John 17
This is what we will take with us into the harvest, this abundant provision of joy. And who will resist this army laden with the fruit of the Holy Spirit? "Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance " Gal 5:22,23
Cast away the old methods and let us rejoice and be glad if we seem to be meek and gentle and humble in heart. Can we be too meek? Too gentle? Too humble in heart? We have been taught by the Master. Are we now surprised we are learning to be like Him? Are we going to dare to ask Him to stop this work because we fear we are not equal to the task at hand? To do so would be to suggest that our Saviour was not equal to His task on earth, to call Him a liar for crying "It Is Finished".
There is strength to be found in this Joy. But also there is UNITY - One with God; One with each other; singleness of purpose; each in his place and none out of step.
Praise the Lord and praise His wonderful Name.
Love from Mary
you made me sit and think and pray and read on this one.
i researched the early muslim beginnings, the women of then, the women of today, their beliefs, the mens responsibilities and the differences between the roles of the men and the women in the muslim faith.
i didnt learn alot that i could agree with, or understand off the top, but i did discover that the spirit that put the muslims into the "box" that they are in,
(Don't worry, i am in a "box" in some areas of my faith, too)
added the treatment that these muslim women must tolerate and endure, for fear of the wrath of their men and their god. i wont say a punishment for digressing from the God of Abraham, but surely the fruit of their labours, when they saw fit to change the meaning of what Moses and the early Israelites determined from their God, and His ways.
there is more i could say, but then i would enter in to lands totally strange to me, and i would offend someone with my lack of understanding, so here i will stop.
Teresa
My only experience with a Moslem... The summer before last, when the Holy Spirit was teaching me to hear the voice of God, I heard, one morning amongst other things, that a man was going to get saved by noon that day. A few hours later a woman that I know called me and said that a man she knew, who was dying, needed prayer and he agreed to receiving it. I replied, no I can't go and pray I am to receive a phone call about a man being saved and it is this morning. She hung up. She called me again and said that she talked to the man she knew and he needs prayer and he is a Moslem. I gave her the same reply. This time I asked the Lord, why is she calling me and He answered, "This is the man, the same man, who is going to be saved, if you would have asked me I would have told you to go". I was really concerned because I did not know how to deal with a Moslem. I called her back and said that I would meet her at the man's apartment. I met her there and walked in and found that none of the people who lived there spoke English. I asked the woman what are we to do? I didn't think of praying and headed for the door. There was a knock on the door and who was there but the only son of the man who could speak english. He had left earlier and came back to get something from his father. The father then explained what was going on with us being there. The son when hearing about his father getting prayer he was outraged. The father told the son to let us go on and pray.
The man was a mess spiritually and physically. He was unable to live the Moslem life due to the bondage he was in. He smoked heavily and had other demonic afflictions that were killing him. The pressure of the religious rules upon him were unbearable. He relayed this to the woman neighbor when he called her by knocking on her door and called her to his apartment where his son was sitting to tell the woman the news. The father was so bad off before that he could not have made the walk down the hall and up the stairs to her apartment. All this lady did was be cheerful to foreigners in her apartment building, but the son found her obnoxious. Every time she would say something in passing the man would ask the son what she was saying. The son came to take his father to all the doctor visits. The woman was sharing the Lord with the sick man who was ill because he looked so bad.
So with all of the fathers children there in this apartment, his wife, and several grand children, I began. The Lord told me to tell the man that "if he were to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as savior, he would be healed". The son protested, the father pondered and coughed. The man looked at me and then the American lady and then his wife and said yes. I prayed a sinners prayer and the son said it in Arabic and the man repeated. I then prayed what The Holy Spirit gave me for the man's healing and anointed him with oil. I finished and nothing apparently happened. Several days later the lady called me real excited. The man went to his doctors appointment and had a reversal and gained part of the use of his kidneys. Two weeks later he got a liitle better and kept getting good reports form an amazed doctor. All of the family got excited except the son who spoke English. He banned the lady downstairs from speaking to his father. There is more to what happed but God moved through a lady who loved her neighbors.
Jesus is Lord of all.
Larry Sloma
My dear friends one of the greatest problems with even beginning to witness to Muslims or Jews is our Trinity. They believe in one G_d.
The L_rd our G_d is one G_d.
We try to explain it over and over to them 3 in one yet this does not satisfy them.
the Pentecostal oneness group have tried to bring this one out through the full manifestation being in Christ yet just 3 manifestations. Some of the group go deeper even to calling his name by the prescribed holy name YVWH or Y_sh_H.
Yes to the best that we know this is the closest to his actual HEBREW Name.
Let us not throw the baby out with the bath water.
We must understand how G_d made man in his IMAGE so that we can see G_ds image. We allso know that Allah is the name Muslims give to G_d. Adam was once only one. He was made of The dirt or clay of the ground. G_d breathed life into him. That is our Spirit. the dynamics of the 2 created a soul. The soul is our personality. that is where we feel or have emotions. we express our selves through our soul. Thus we are spirit soul and body, yet we are one. That is our image that is like G_d. 3 part s inside of G_d before the beginning. It is possible for a person to die when their body is damaged. But that there is the difference between G_d and man. We by falling in the garden gave way to death. Now we are like the BEASTS our bodies can die and our Spirits were seperated from G-d.
Might I suggest that Y_shuah Jesus Is the very SOUL of G_d. Imagine the pain of seperating from your own soul. For G_d so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son. did not John say in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with G_d and was G-d. G_d does not lie. Our blessed savoir is G-d. The very personality, and Character of G_d.
G_d wants to FILL every thing with himself. He wantsus to be G-d centered and not Self centered. He already has proved he is not self centered by giving him Self to us. Here is something I pray you can see for it has revolutionized my life. when we give our Souls to Him we gain back what he longed for us to contain. Him yes G-d himself living in us. That is why he left in his glorified body so that he could send the Spirit into us to indwell our dead Spirits. thus our spirits our now becoming one with his spirit.
Let me caution you here. I am not saying we are gods but that we are bit by bit as we yield to his Spirit becoming one with G-d. there could never be a higher calling than that. That is what G_d wants ,many children . He wants to redeem that which was rightfully his in the first place. those who cooperate will become his family. Wow the family of G-d . Let us be patient as he disciplines our souls, personalities, and Spirits to obey and follow him. there will be a day where even our bodies will be G_d planned them to be. Our adoptions will be so glorious. Oh that we would stand before him on that day blameless. Let us understand that redemption is only the catalyst to the greatest family in the Universe. Oh yes he is a trinity and he is One, the three in one wants you as part of his family. the spirit of the bride says come. there is no respecter of persons in G_d .come one come all believe , yield ,obey bare your cross so that the old creation in you will die and the new through Christ Jesus Y_shuah Messiah will fill you with the one the holy one .Im so glad Im a part of the family of G_d
----------------------
I give credit to Devern fromke and Watchman Nee
They are part of the reason thqt I have discovered the greatest family in the Universe. the family of g-d. I thank G-d for these men showing his truth and light. forgive me on that last writing all what I said comes through them and what the Holy spirit showed me in addition to their great Revelation. Many a great Saints have helped us on the way,let us continue our journey to seeing our L_rd and eventualy even our Father.
Leah Owen
Hi Jay,
Guess I must've missed the conversations about Muslims or missed the last message from the Latter Rain list that came in.
Anyway, I have two friends who live in Turkey that I met on the internet several years back. They're Muslim.
Both of them have discussed some of their beliefs with me, as well as I have mine with them. However, we see each other as tolerant of the other's beliefs, them not trying to change mine and me not trying to change theirs, because we all believe in God. They are both peaceful people, very spiritual, and both of them wrote to express their sorrow when the towers fell in New York. They have true faith Jay and are not like all the Muslims who do all these bad things.
Like me, they believe that people of all faiths will be in heaven. Catholic, protestant, Muslim, whatever. I think each person's relationship with God is between that person and God only.
My friends know that I believe in Jesus as the son of God and as my savior. Neither of them try to convince me of anything concerning Mohammed and I don't talk to them about my beliefs in that respect. We do however, build each other up as believers in God. They'll be in heaven, I have no doubt.
I just live my life in regards to all of this by Romans Chapter 14. Who I am to say what is right or wrong for someone to believe? God has called each one accordingly.
One of my friends is married. He is very good to his wife and little daughter and they are free to be who they want to be. His wife is a psychiatrist if that tells you anything. Not all Muslims are like those of the Taliban. My two friends are what I call "the exception to the rule" and they feel the same about me where Christianity is concerned....I'm the exception to the rule in that I don't go around trying to preach to others how I think they should live and believe. That's between them and God.
I guess what I'm trying to say Jay, is that I have friends of all faiths and beliefs, their hearts are pure, their minds are in the right place in relation to God and I know that if God finds me worthy, I'll see them in heaven.
As I said, I must've missed some things here. I can tell from what you've written, that you must've gotten "slammed" pretty much by those of the Muslim faith. My two friends are not like that. They are very tolerant of the Christian beliefs, even though they don't believe the way we do. We just don't try to tell each other how we should believe or live, Jay. I see people abuse faith all the time. I see them use the bible in a way that it wasn't meant to be used. And I see it every day from "so-called" Christians.
If people of all faiths were not to be in heaven, the bible wouldn't say that they will be. All nations, kindreds and tongues. There are true believers with true hearts amongst all religions and there are false ones amongst them all. As for me, I just believe in Jesus, God and the bible and beyond that, I don't pay a lot of attention to what "men" say. Instead of calling myself a "Christian", I just say that I am a "believer".
I hope that I am not offending you in any way. I've seen you express a lot of the things that I believe, and that's why I joined your list.
I might not ever meet you in this lifetime, Jay, but if I am worthy, I'll see you in heaven.
Hang in there and God bless!!
Cindy
Hi all,
I have been trying to get my brain around this on and off, sorry Jay, mostly off! I found that there were a lot of issues coming up that affected me personally as a woman, and it became such a big subject for me that I couldn't deal with it neatly.
I linked to a site dealing with Islam issues and discovered that Muslim women are taught very similar things that we might find in the Bible, about the importance of the family and their role for instance, and where their principal duties lie. My own situation here is as wife, mother, homemaker etc., and all titles that come with it, so it is very traditional too, and not what modern Christian women even would necessarily find palatable. For many years I yearned for this experience of motherhood, and never had it, so I am thankful that the Lord has provided me with these things, and also a loving husband and good relationship that is still developing. We have room to grow and change. I think we are still learning how to speak up when things are not right. We are still learning how not to be offended when someone speaks up. I think there is a growing freedom to be our changing selves.
Then there is the issue of our differing faith. I am very fortunate that I am free to express my love for the Lord within this family setting. Obviously it would be wonderful if we all belonged to the Lord and could share worship and study together, but it is not so yet. So I hang on to the Lord for solutions to problems, and we get from A to B, sometimes even a little joyful sharing happens. None of us likes rules much, we all have that in common.
I am really so blessed to be free like this, I believe it is the freedom that comes from God. If I lived within Islam and got saved, how would I express this joy and liberty that rises up, not to mention the need to speak forth, which would undoubtedly break traditional, cultural, political and religious rules? I would have to go underground, become secretive, or face extreme persecution and death. I don't know any Christians, myself included, who would be willing to face the latter option, I stand humbled. I have taken my liberty for granted.
It is surely not up for argument whether the Gospel should reach Muslim women. It seems consistent with what I know to be true of God that there will be a portion of that faith that will come to know Jesus as we know Him, and be saved. I am now convinced that we need, and face, a thorough shaking of everything we have become attached to within our faith, which will be followed by such an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as we have not seen before, in order to meet these very extreme needs. Our God will supply.
Love,
December 15, 2001
Leah
Joy is being restored.For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son... John 3:16!
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