Heal Our Land

October 9. 2001

The most often quoted portion of scripture this last month has been one verse:

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

This is a call to repentance in answer to a wake-up call but remember, many prophets were preaching it before the tragedy happened and few took heed. The operative parts of this scripture is repentance and it is directed not to the heathen or the unsaved but to MY People, who are called by MY Name. This is not a popular position to take considering it is back to business as usual for most people, it is not what they want to hear. Why? It cannot be overemphasized that Christians need to know what their sins are before they can repent of them. That means coming to the light so that they can be exposed. The church through the centuries have committed grievous wrongs in the name of Jesus for the sake of the traditions of men and the doctrines of demons. What we are learning now is that it is not so much what you believe but who you believe in and not so much interpretation of scripture as it is in its application. It all boils down to pride and the we are right and you are wrong attitude. Church against church, Christian against Christian, competition instead of co-operation, man building up their own little kingdoms for their own glory. This has got to stop but the church needs to be spiritually convicted before they can ever repent. How this is done, only God knows the best way but we need to seek His face so that we can do His will.

Our discussion from last time was in being in agreement of what happened last month from the terrorists. If it was judgment, it was not judgment as yet from God but as a result of our own sins as a church and as a nation. We reap what we sow. God allowed these things to happen; He had let down the blessed hedge that surrounds our nation. We have been preaching repentance for some time now, it is the call of Elijah to prepare for the Lord. That is hard for many and of course, there is not entire agreement since I had received several insulting letters this time for even suggesting that Christians in America are worshipping mammon.

We discussed Lucifer and it was brought up that Lucifer is not necessarily the devil but the power that he wanted for himself to be the light. As the morning star, it is reflected light. God is the true light and we discussed what it is to be gods in the scriptural sense and in the idolatrous sense of wanting to be God. What happened between satan and Eve in the garden, what it is to have the knowledge of good and evil and what happens when pride takes over and false prophecy comes forth. This means that we could all take upon us the aspects of Lucifer in exalting ourselves as lights in Babylon. We need to make sure that we give God all the glory, all the honor, all the credit for whatever good we do in this life. His people - His Name - His Face. He will not heal our land until we humble ourselves and turn, that is repentance pure and simple. Take time to read the responses and dialogue this time. Again, it ends with an appeal through love in practice.

Many of us will catch on to this and do the things necessary to stay the hand of God. This is where the harvest lies in that the sifting occurs here between the church of the flesh and the church of the spirit. Will it be enough? Only partially for we know through scripture that much judgment is coming. We are to be protected but who are we?

What I would like feedback on this time is just what will it take to convince an errant church that they need to change? How do you approach a luke-warm church that thinks they are hot? How do you wake up a dead church that thinks that they are alive? How do you approach false prophets and false christs that think that they have the light and truth. What of the harvest? Of the remnant? Of the dry bones? Sure, there is apostasy, it is here but what of the revival and sifting? Those that despise prophecy have become at enmity with God. How do we reach them? How do we break down the ignorance? Can we answer a few of those questions? Or don't they matter?


Dear Brother Jay:
My name is Pastor Tom Brooks. I agree with everything you have said. I feel the same about what is happening now in our land. God spoke to me the other night and told me that He is still the same God as He was before Jesus came to the earth. He has not changed. He is still a God of judgment and of love. He is still calling for submission to His orders and call. Jesus made the way for us to have forgiveness and also paid the price for us, God's people, to take control over the earth and do the works of God. God is calling for the earth to repent and return unto Him. But if we do not then there will be bad things happen in our land. I do believe that God will protect His people and keep them from harm when they are called according to His purpose in the fulfillment of His long term plan.
Thank you
Pastor Tom Brooks

Hi Jay really liked your perspective on the root of all evil and your take on the recent events are very similar to mine. I have one thought in regard to "judgement". I am not big on the judgement idea for the current situation because there is a big difference in my mind between judgement and God's mercy. Judgement is final and decisive; God's mercy is to turn us from our current direction before we fall into judgement. Judgement is the end result of all our actions. God's mercy however severe is always (as long as there is hope for change) trying to bring us to realize our folly/sin. Mercy and discipline are very similar in that they are meant to bring us to righteousness/salvation.

Judgement has some implications for people which are often unsaid - that being, that they deserved the horrific events of Sept. 11th. Most people couldn't respond to that and move toward God. God's discipline and mercy are hard enough concepts for us who fathom in light of the recent events. These things are a wakeup call primarily for the church. We should divest ourselves of those things which have us tied to this world, however only God can make that transition for us. Only the Holy Spirit can overcome our enemies (the Flesh and its lusts). Although He uses circumstances and situations to cause us to turn to him for deliverance. Our prayer now should be to have the church interpret the events correctly. This was not against America, it was against the monetary/commodities system that enslaves millions around the world. It was not against America it was against the world militarism which has brought suffering to millions around the world. America does not have favoured nation status with Him. No nation has.

my 2 cents......

Blessing, Paul Weigel

I so agree that the love of money is the root of all evil. Look at the relative of this false Jesus that will arise also. PRIDE and POWER. the Anti Christ in one of my versions of the Bible actually says he serves the God of Forces. Some say fortresses. Is that not POWER? Forcing others to do things his way that is mans way and not G_ds way. Even Christianity is ugly when Forced upon people with the threats of death. We are to give life not take life. Has not so called Christianity which is not true christianity FORCED people to join against their wills? do not Catholics and protestants kill each other in some places? This is not our L_rd at all but a G-d of FORCES. Full of death and L_rding it over G_ds children. We were called to be servants not RULERS the man made way. We were called to love people into the fold not force them.

Sin in our own midst becomes a stumbling block for the World and for the young Christian. I myself spent years being the stumbling block. G_d required repentance of my fallen ways and to return to His way, the way of the Cross. The humble servants way. Love you all in christ Jesus Y_shuah Messiah.


You my friend are so in tune with the Spirit of God. That is exactly what he has been showing me too. On your web site there is a place called A View from the Wall. He has a book in there called the Final Warning - The History of the New World Order. That's what I am reading now. It's got so much information in it. I knew that there was a reason that that building came down or it wouldn't have. God has been warning us that everything can be shaken will be shaken, and also whatever is not of God is coming down, and it did literally. God led me right to that book. It's online and you can also buy it.

You are hearing what the Spirit is saying. That is so good.

Your sister in Christ

Verna Samaripa

Hey There!

Another voice resounds of mine, the enemy was indeed within this attack on America!

On the tuesday night here, in australia, we, (my family) were so shocked and grieved at the brutal methods, and the great loss of life in a few minutes, that we sat down and prayed, and waited upon God and His reply.

His Voice came, as ever gentle and strong, wise and comforting, that the old must pass away to bring in the new.

Satan isn't on the earth as a man in his full authority, yet, the anti-christ is here, the man who cages his evil spirit is rising, but hasn't taken full power, yet, but the tearing down of the trade centres will cause them to build new towers, all fine and well, it is what we expect, but what a lot do not know, and im sure wouldnt believe me if i told them, is that when these new buildings are built, they are ready and equipped for one world currency, one world government

the old must pass away to make room for the new

This message chilled me, indeed i may live to see Jesus return, but in my heart i KNOW my children and theirs will definitely see Jesus return

i am sick and tired of the emails generated by the lists and companies i subscribe to, telling me to take a moment and pray for those lost, i dont pray for dead people, their circumstances are for my Father to deal with,

i have always prayed for the living, and i always will, even when they say they hate me or my Father; they are the ones we need to "chase" the most

the attack on the world trade centres, and the pentagon are a glimpse of what is yet to come, fuelled in part by man's love of money, the root of all evil, fueled in part by those who prepare the way for the anti christ to rise to his allotted power,

in these times, it is a great comfort to me to know that for all this hate and death, deception and destruction, God Still holds the reins; He has the Last Say, He allows it to be, to come to pass.

Jay, we who are ever vigilant, we who watch and wait, day and night, are rewarded for our watchfulness with knowledge, the Lord's Presence, and His unfailing Wisdom and Love

with the knowledge comes greater responsibility,

but My Saviour asks to take on His burdens, for His Yoke is Light

I'm for that

Be happy

Stay Blessed,


Dear Jay

I am thy beloved brother in Christ. I totally agree with what you have said. I am amazed at the amount of christians who have been blinded by Mammon (prophesy of Isaiah and Jesus).

However Jay, as a friend to a friend, remember the words of Amos. It is a evil time and the wise will be prudent. This message of ours will not go down well with the major.

Have a look at Daniel Chapter 11 - (the later half is about to be fulfilled in our very eyes). The countries that escape - Moab, Ammon represent the arab nations of today. Do not misunderstand me, the Muslims are not correct in there beliefs, however just like Nebuchanezzer, GOD is using them to correct the Christians and the Jews for not obeying him.

While many horrible things will take place, many of the spiritually blind christians and jews will wake up and be save during the great tribulation, it is so close to our current time.

God Bless



Dear servant of Jesus -
I seek, as I believe we all do when we let the Holy Sprit work in us, to be humbly used of God, in these perilous times, to work as He purposes in me. My most fervent prayer is for His will to be done here on earth; for His people to be continually sanctified through confession/prayer and His Holy Word, to be humbly committed to Him, and that we not be deceived - so that we do not deceive others. I was drawn to your website -not for guidance in end-times, but because of a search on the "Solemn Assembly". The need for it burdens me. God has led me to study Jeremiah and Habakuk and Joel for the past year.

I do not claim a title of prophet, or anything else - I only know that it is time to warn people. I am not talking about condemning people, though some may hear it that way. I am talking about sharing all of the attributes of God - that God is loving, and He is also a jealous God. He promises judgment, too. He is patient and long-suffering, but He will not be mocked. There will be reaping and sowing. And there is a call for those who see and hear now (as you spoke about in your e-mail) for sharing that with others. And I believe there will also be a judgment against us (the blood of those we did not speak to) if we do not share the unction He has placed in our hearts (as God warned His Old Testament prophets). I fight constantly the human need to be "right", versus with being "right" with God. False pride sneaks up on me. I feel like Moses when he is frustrated with His people - so much so that he strikes the rock instead of speaking to it, and sacrifices going into the promised land. I pray for His power and His love so I may love Him and truly love His people. If I do not do this, I cannot love God. I pray we seek and find and follow God's agenda and not our own.

I just finished David Wilkerson's message. It is what God has placed on my heart as well. I had no vision - but God used the word "calamity" when I felt called to speak at a prayer meeting at my local church. "From Jeremiah 6:16 "Thus says the Lord: Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is and walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls." (I did not realize until later that I did not read the last sentence of the verse..."But they said we will not walk in it") "Over and over in the Old Testament, God's people turned away from Him - and He warned them, longing for them to return to Him and His covenant with them. But when they refused to return to Him, He brought calamity on them. We have many sins we need to repent from... Sins as individuals, sins as a church and sins as a nation. I invite you to read Chapters 2 and 3 in the book of Revelation. There is a promise at the beginning if anyone reads the book they will be blessed, and if anyone shares the message in the book, there will be blessings. He who has ears to ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Jesus tells the churches what He holds against them - but there are many blessings promised to those who will overcome them. To them that have ears, let them hear."

Our Senior Pastor immediately stood up and said "I do not believe that. I do not believe God would cause this. I believe what Romans says." (I thought he might be referring to Romans 8:1) The message from the pulpit on Sunday, Sep 16, was "God did not cause this!" That statement was repeated at least five times throughout the sermon. (I did not challenge his stand either time - I am not sure why - if it was fear or no urging by the Holy Spirit) I was so dismayed that I had not spoken for God, but my own agenda. I hunkered into His word for days - seeking His truth - humility - only for Him and His righteousness.) The battle between being "right" and being "right with God" continued. God, please keep me from being deceived, keep Your people from being deceived!

Reading David Wilkerson's message brought not a victorious, being-right, "YES", but a sad, "yes", and a call to read Jude, and pray the prayers he writes in verses 20-25.

The pride of "USA", the call to flying of the American flag and "claim" God's blessing on America as if it were up to us ask and receive without seeking His face grieves me so deeply. I long to say "Give me Jesus, or give me death!", not "Give me liberty (a graven image?) or give me death." Once again I stand in the shadows - uncertain of being righteous in God versus "right" and condemning.

I can only hear the words "REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND". "Rend your heart, and not your garments."

Who will call the Solemn Assembly? I pray for the people God has prepared/is preparing to do this - that they (you?, them, me?) will be willing, strengthened, convicted and prepared to "go to Ninevah", or Babylon, or Jerusalem -- wherever they are called -- and proclaim God's message. I claim God's promise in Jeremiah 3:15, after people turn back in repentance to God "Then, I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding."

My hope is in You, Lord!

Sue Simmon


Hi Sue,

Thanks for writing.

My Hope is in Him too. Those that see judgment in this are pretty united in thinking that God did not cause this, nor was it actually judgment from God but that it was a result of our own departure from the ways of God. In other words, God did not cause it but it was allowed to happen, the hedge has been let down. Judgment begins at the house of God but to stay God's hand demands repentance and the church has not known what to repent of.

So it seems that your pastor was right but it is also right that there is reaping and sowing. This is a very good point. I hope also that the solemn assembly will be called, I have thought it was past time and now I am sure of it. In that you are called to it is very good, the more that see it coming the sooner it will come. I was reading something from A. W. Tozer today where he mentioned that we do not ask for more of the Holy Spirit so that we can have unity, we must have unity so that we can have more of the Holy Spirit. I believe that when this finally happens, Jesus will come, so that is what I am called to.


Brothers, Sisters,

Brother Timothy wrote a couple of weeks ago a deep and incisive letter that I have been unable to answer. What threw me was his observation that the vehicle of evil is not the issue, but the spiritual root, "self-will setting at defiance the universal and eternal law." Further, he said, "all treatment of sin is ineffectual that does not get to its root in the human soul." I have pondered that to exhaustion, and cannot but now agree. Self will, yes; but more than that: existential godhood. Or, hidden idolatry.

Hosea 5:15 states that "I will return to my place until they acknowledge their offense." I highly recommend a word search for "offense," or "offence kjv," because this is a promise and something we must do. "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man!" But we do not know specifically what offense to confess. Self will, certainly. Unfaith, surely. Slow in heart, and the list is very long. Including, the love of money.

I suggest, again, that it might be the same offense committed by Lucifer. He was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him. This might be the mother of all sin, or close to it. His heart was lifted up in pride and power and he wanted to be like God. (Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28). He was awesome good, then he invented iniquity. I know that iniquity can be called the vehicle, but iniquity also spawns pride and shame. I suggest he must have wanted to be God before he fell - and I do not know how one can think such thoughts in the presence of Truth, for as soon as we know good and evil there is iniquity. So he understood the vehicle that he could use to fabricate a place apart from God, so that he could rule the cosmos through man. He was, and still is, the anointing cherub - probably his greatest power. So which came first the chicken or the egg; or lust for power or iniquity? I submit that confessing iniquity will necessarily include confessing the will to control situations and manipulate others. And the means of such power is knowing the right thing to do, and judging others - creating the social reality of iniquity. The whole world system is ordered by iniquity - the powerful are the greatest (by money or whatever means). That may be why the order in the kingdom of God is based on the truth that the least are the greatest. With such perception mucky mucks cannot rule out the new covenant. Whatever it is, let us name it! And be very sure repentance - most of all - puts it away.

Check out the words, offense, offence, offend, offended. I had, and still have, some confessing to do as these verses get very specific.


Hi all,
Edward I wonder if I understood something different to you about Timothy's comment on "all treatment of sin..." - I had thought that the root in the human soul was what was changed in the beginning when we first accepted Christ, so that we began our lives as a "new creation", the Holy Spirit within us and alongside us to show us "specifically what offense to confess", so that we are not orphans without correction, direction, parentage.

Practically for years I got away with a level of drinking which if challenged I could produce a convincing legalistic argument to justify my intake, but honestly the Holy Spirit would not allow me ever to fully enjoy drinking as I had done in the past, I was different, and I knew I was, I just had to get my body to respond to that knowledge. I knew my way around the New Testament and had enough faith to believe that I would be forgiven and cleansed on confession of this and other sin. But the how-to of putting it away escaped me for that period because there was nothing in my Christian experience that made me either relax or smile as much!! Rather the opposite was the norm in the church. What cracked it finally I think was the acknowledgement of the change in desire, wow a Holy desire in me to do it right for God, despite all fleshly protestations.

So that brings me to the second point about Lucifer "wanted to be God before he fell". It seems to me that it is that "wanting" that is unseated from the important place within. The enemy being a liar and an accuser will continuously affirm that we are not changed, that we are not saved, for if we were we surely would not be doing these things. But that isn't what the Word of God says and a trip around certain chapters in Romans offers much comfort in this respect.

If we know the nature of the God we serve it is perfectly possible to think desperately sinful thoughts in the presence of Truth, I suggest the fleshly mind that remains is full of such thoughts, and yet Jesus is happy to remain in us, showing us the darkness by His glorious light, fully affirming His love and enduring mercy though our hearts fail for the desperate wickedness of the flesh. Before we belonged in this way there was no light to show the darkness, we did not know what to confess, we did not know what sin was until our loving Lord began to show us.

"Which came first, chicken or egg, lust for power or iniquity?" Sounded to me like "Which of these bad eggs is bad?" Forgive me, I hope I don't tarnish the shine on your most elegantly put questions. I have spent a long time away from intellectual discussion, that I hardly remember what "existential" means. Bear with me. I am certain that I have failed to grasp several of your important points.

Repentance for the Christian is a journey backwards to the place where we last met with God, and our wills were united with Him. Sin is the outward journey away. If we start the return journey from whatever sinful path we have taken with the certain knowledge that God is there to meet us we will not be afraid of any of the terrors we pass through as we confess the sin, the lust which conceived it, the motive, the sinful thought at its source, or any other subtle layer of wrongdoing in between. God is faithful and will not let us go, He has endured our waywardness this far, He will not abandon us. He cannot be shocked and we need not be afraid. Only we must as you say name it until we find the quiet place where it doesn't exist any more because it is forgiven and gone, and God can now rebuild.

Repentance for the non Christian, however, is a meaningless exercise unless God is in it, because it will end in death: "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Pr. 14:12. Also we know our own righteousness is as "filthy rags". There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, it is a gift of God. Eph.2:8: " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works lest any man should boast." Therefore in these times it is as well to be sure of our footing and our destination before ever we step out in any repentant direction, or it could be at best a disappointing trip. (I can't seem to help this, pray for me folks I am on the streets tomorrow)

Love from Mary

Easton's Bible Dictionary mentions Lucifer as: brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isa. 14:12) to denote his glory.

Naves Topical Bible mentions Nebuchadnezzar as called by this name.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." Isaiah 12-15

The name literally means bringing light or light bearer. As I notice in the depiction of him in these verses and commentaries, nowhere does it mention that this is actually satan but everyone recognizes him as such, Webster included, as well as Milton, St. Jerome and several writers east and west, he is used as the name for gods and goddess on Greek mythology and as Venus, the morning star. Doing an internet search on Lucifer brings up satanic and anti-christian sites.

The notable thing that is obvious to me is the mention of "I" so often here in Isaiah. "I" will ascend into heaven, "I" will exalt my throne above the stars, etc. The tendency of man is to be like God. This is the desire of our Father in Heaven also but He has given us the way to take on that divinity, the ways of man only lead to death. The serpent at the Garden of Eden told Eve that if she ate the forbidden fruit that "your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

So as far as the Bible is concerned, Lucifer is the king of Babylon. Nevertheless, he has "fallen from heaven" and as far as I am concerned must fit some kind of prophetic fulfillment in the last days Babylon. Like Timothy brings out, we must get to the root of the problem and as Mary mentions, Lucifer wanted to be like God. Ed mentions Ezekiel 28: 6b-7 "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness." 14-16: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." Tyre and Sidon, sure. But for our generation, it is God's country who has become rich and need of nothing.

The prophets that are prophesying peace in our circumstances are decrying that God has nothing to do with our present situation and the United States is without guilt. Instead of revival and repentance, America is entrenching herself in the same attitude that will bring her into severe judgment. Those that are trying to speak the will of the Lord are being silenced in many circles and favoring the one world government that will bring the retribution. They think that they have nothing to repent for except for letting our guard down in a military sense. Prayers for our nation means nothing if not to strengthen ourselves in being more like Him, not the god of Babylon. Many in America are saying that our spirits are strong and high but what God wants is our spirits broken, we are to approach Him in humility, not nationalistic pride.

If Lucifer is the king of Babylon and is also the morning star that has descended from heaven, then the man of sin will be Lucifer personified and the church will flock to support him.

Any comments?


first comment:  Lucifer is a latin word of which was not in the hebrew text of the 1611 translations of the New Testament KJV.  The word means morning star and according to Job 38 morning stars are the Sons of God.  Jesus called himself who was the only beggotten son of God the bright and morning star.  Adam in Luke is called the Son of God and the prophets in the old Testament are called the sons of God.  In Genesis 5 there is the sons of God and the daughters of men.  There is only one man of sin and that personified is the falling away of the truth to self once again being the subject of ruling.  The church has fallen away from the truth and unto fables and the man of sin sits in the temple calling himself God when Christ has told men to deny self.  It is very important to really understand who the enemy is for otherwise you will aim at the wrong mark and kill a make believe object and miss the real enemy.   The one world government is appearing but has been here operating along time now it is just showing itself opening for preparations of being brought down.  God will destroy his enemies.  I am not an American I am an Israelite and Jesus is my King and my kingdom is not of the American world but of the Father.  What is happening openly is the worldly kingdom who exalts themselves up to heaven but yet will be cast down continually.  For no man who is a liar may enter in.  And all those who enter another way are just thieves and robbers.  In the beginning the serpent is the lust of man the old man or old body that was outside the garden of the mind.  For the first son of God Adam was brought up into paradise by humbling and breathing the breath of life the Holy Ghost into him and the Last Adam came down from heaven the only begotten son of God who kept God's words.  And in Jesus there was no seed of man.  He was born of a woman and the son of the living God.  A promise kept to Eve in genesis 3 that she would be the Mother of all living and the head of the serpent would be destroyed.  Adam in the beginning became the father of death for as it is written:  In Adam all die.  As it is written the first man brought sin into the world and death by the means of sin.  If we do not understand the beginning we shall not be clear on the rest.  May God give us all light in Jesus Christ name Amen

Joy Key


this is a subject that may cause much controversion. I hope you'll read this with a prayer in you heart.

I think many people, including myself for a long time have adopted the view that Isa 14 and Ez 28 describe what must have happened to satan, to cause him to be what he is. I've come to the conclusion, thanks to others who pointed this out, that the scripture itself does not give us reason to believe so, and that there are other scriptures that tell us differently.

Both accounts (Isa,Ez) deal specifically with man, and how man wants to exalt himself, and sit on the throne of God, as Joy Key pointed out, Self wanting to rule instead of God.

I think the common explanation of these verses find their root in our view of reality, rather than in what scripture tells us.

When Jesus speaks of the devil He says (joh 8:44)

YLT 44 `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father.

Revised Webster 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Both versions give a correct translation of the Greek, which states clearly that 'He was a murderer from the beginning', or a murderer from origin, and it states that 'in the truth he has not stood', or 'he abode not in the truth'. So satan NEVER lived in truth, or spoke truth, he ALWAYS lied.

Our Lord shares with us the fact, that satan has never been anything else but a liar and a murderer. This is how he was created. I know this is hard to believe, since we have been told differently for a long time, and on many occasions. This doctrine has been amplified, and has penetrated deeply in our minds and determines for a large part how we view reality.

Genesis is the book of beginnings, the book of origin. It tells us how everything started.

In Genesis 3:1 it says (NKJ) 1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, `You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"

In Rev 20:2 it says (NKJ) 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of OLD, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Old may be better translated here as 'from the beginning', but the point is, that it tells us that the Devil IS the serpent, and the serpent is classified as a beast of the field in the garden. Being classified as a beast, it tells us that it has a nature like any beast. From these scriptures we can conclude the ground shaking truth that satan is a murderer and a liar from the beginning, and this is his nature, he is created to do so.

This may completely upset you as it did me, and I hope you will search yourself for truth in scripture. Pray to our Lord to guide you by his Spirit into the truth.

When Eve took the fruit of the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil', and they ate from it, they entered into the reality which would teach them this knowledge. We're still tasting this fruit. And strange though it may sound, we need to experience evil to know and appreciate good. It's catching that it is not just the tree of knowledge of evil, but 'good and evil'. God has a plan with creation, a grand plan for man. We are His children, His offspring, and He want to teach us. He wants to love us, and be loved. The only way to appreciate Gods love and to be drawn by His love is to experience hate and misery. There is no other way, learning by experience appears to be Gods way, hence the world of opposites we live in.

So at the end of the day we may look at enemies, world-order, satan etc, but what we should look at, is God. He is above all and in all. There is nothing that happens in creation that has no purpose. He cares, and everything acts together as a great concert to train us, and to show us in mysterious ways His love towards us.

Hard as it may sound, I urge you to live appreciating what is happening to you. Life may knock you off your feet, give you grief, bring you sorrow and pain, or loneliness, but it has a purpose. When we see this we are on our way to agree with Paul:

Ef 5:20 (NKJ) 20 giving thanks ALWAYS for ALL THINGS to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Bless you,


Hi all, love this Hans.

Yes it is so easy to sing the songs in church that speak of being a sinner saved by grace, and suffering having its place and going to the cross. We have all been there opening our mouths and shutting them hoping to convince all around us of our equal experience of the process of salvation, as if looking the part will in any way convince ourselves that we are saved, or if it will convince God..... But we know that the Lord loves to answer a genuinely seeking heart, and when the inevitable process begins, when the suffering and the appalling reality of our capabilities begins to come into view under the careful watch of the Holy Spirit, and we are being brought into a knowledge and experience of the huge and awesome love of God, suddenly where are the singers? Where are those who so ardently sang along with the words and seemed to be so far above us in their experience? And then where are the ones who can bleed with us when we go through it? The ones who sing happily "bind us together, Lord" and then cannot bear to be bound together with us? Oh, then we learn some things about loneliness, and some more things about ourselves and the zeal and commitment we thought we had.

If we are going through that experience of learning about good and evil, and that process of tribulation that against our human wishes is turning us into true children of God, let us look to Jesus and be glad that the servant is not above his Master, that those things which He endured so shall we if we earnestly desire Him, but that His promises are sure and He will do with us what He has set out to do, against all odds and against all earthly probabilities. Romans 5, 3-5: And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also; knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:(5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." I have found Hans too that salvation cannot be a simple question of intellectual agreement, God's way IS that we learn by experience, and every part of the heavenly sequence must be in it's proper place. Praise the Lord that He cares for His children so much.

Love from Mary

s. 64:1.---' Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down.'

Here we have the impatience of a prophet. The visions the prophets saw so vividly made them impatient to have them realized. The contrast between the ideal and the actual was so violent that they could not bear it. It might also be said that their impatience was due to the intensity of their belief. They firmly believed that what they saw in vision and spoke in prophecy must have fulfillment. Nothing was too good to be true; nothing is in the moral and spiritual life. But not all at once does the ideal flash out in finished splendor. Little change can come in outward conditions, in social relationships, until first there is a change within the hearts of men. Outward conditions are what they are because of selfishness, greed, and inhumanity. There must be a new order of men before there can be a new order of society. That is the Bible view. ' The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now, waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.' When they appear the intolerable, outward conditions will begin to change, the groaning and travailing will begin to cease. Not all at once. We do not believe in quick and easy and wholesale methods of social and spiritual re-adjustment. The trouble of the world has its roots in individual self-will, and we know how deep down they go. In Theologia Germanica, a mystical book which dates back to the fourteenth century, we find: " Nothing burneth in hell but self-will. There fore it hath been said, " Put off thine own will and there will be no hell." So long as there is any self-will there will never be true love, true peace, true rest.

There is no quick or easy or dramatic way out of the difficulty. The prophet certainly hoped there was, and hoped deferred made the prophet impatient. It was hard on him, for he stood alone, and he did want to vindicate God in the eyes of His enemies. He wanted to see them utterly confounded and rendered impotent. We know the feeling so well. Our zeal outruns our charity. And we are not always disinterested in our desire to see God vindicated. Other motives than jealousy for Jesus were behind the impatience of James and John with the Samaritans. They wanted God to rend the heavens and come down in judgment upon a people they hated and would be glad to see the last of. The prophet had this, at least, to justify his impatience: he had seen a vision of what might be if all the forces of evil were finally destroyed. Then would come the wonderful transformation, a picture of which he gives us in the next chapter---the new heavens and the new earth, life reconstructed and organized, on the basis of joy. If only God would bring it to pass quickly, dramatically! But that is not God's way.

God does not conduct His rivers, like arrows, to the sea. The ruler and compass are only for finite mortals who labor, by taking thought, to overcome their limitations, and are not for the Infinite mind. The expedition demanded by man's small power and short day produces the canal, but Nature, with a beneficent and picturesque go around, the work of a more spacious and less precipitate mind, produces the river. Why should we assume that, in all the rest of His ways, He rejoices in the river, but in religion can use no adequate method save the canal? . . . The question is whether God ever does override the human spirit in that direct way, and whether we ought to conceive either of His spirit or of ours after a fashion that could make it possible. . . .The long sorrowful experience of the ages seems to show that the last thing God thinks of doing is to drive mankind with resistless rein on the highway of righteousness.

It was because the prophet was all out for God and for His interest that he was impatient with His inaction. But can it be said that the majority of people now are all out for God's interests? They would like to see a change in the present condition of things, but they may be thinking less of God's interests than of their own. Long ago Jesus said, only most do not take Him seriously: ' Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.' It is certainly true that unless we are ready wholeheartedly to identify ourselves with God's interests, He will take no action. Carlyle once complained that " He does nothing." Even if it were true, what is there for Him to do in a world from which He is practically excluded? What difference would it make if He did rend the heavens and came down? People said to Jesus as He hung on the Cross, ' Come down from the cross, and we will believe.' It would have made no difference. Belief of that sort has no moral value.

But is it true that God does nothing? Jesus did not think so. ' My Father worketh even until now, and I work.' Until we come on to a basis of absolute obedience, we cannot know what God is doing, or what He wants us to do. When we do surrender ourselves we are kept busy with real things, doing God's work, the work Christ did while on earth, changing human lives, bringing nearer the time when the world will acknowledge Him as King. But such a change comes slowly, not in mass movements; though that is not impossible. Pentecost was a mass movement, though it happened only once. The Reformation was a mass movement, though it was not wholly spiritual. Most Christians would wish to see anything happen that would bring about revival on a wide scale, and because it is delayed the earnest and impatient try to bring it about, to organize enthusiasm. All such attempts will fail. It is important that what is written or spoken of any spiritual movement should correspond closely with the facts. Testimony should never go an inch beyond experience.

' Oh, that thou would'st rend the heavens and come down.' Are we quite sure we would like it if He did? Not unless we loved Him so much and wanted Him so much that we would not mind the manner of His coming. We never can tell how religious people will react to the impact of a real experience of God. So long as things are conventional and orderly and safe religion is a comforting addition to life. But, when it comes as an unwelcome and dangerous intrusion, piercing like a sword through every false peace and illegitimate joy, we resent its encroachment.

In a book by Winston Churchill, The Inside of the Cup, published a number of years ago, there is a picture of conventional religion. Take this sentence, for example: "Mr. Plimpton did not want to see the world changed." He was a churchwarden; he was also head of a not-to-reputable Trust Company. Of the comfort-loving members of St. John's, and their attitude towards revival, the author says, "They feel intuitively that Christianity contains a vital spark which, if allowed to fly, would start a conflagration beyond their control."

Let God but keep His distance, and all will be well. The trouble is when He rends the sky of our untroubled peace and comes down. We have given Him His place, with a day all to Himself, in which we have been adoring Him with psalms and hymns and giving Him the go-by for the rest of the week. That was not how Jesus worshipped God or glorified His name. He worshipped Him in the beauty of holiness. He gave Him the gold of obedience. ' To do thy will, O God, I take delight.' That was the spirit of His worship. It took Him to the Cross. There, on the Cross, He was lifted up to die, and He refused to come down until He had finished the work He had been given to do. There we see God glorified, we see ' the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.' That is the meaning of all worship, ' to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever.' But unless the Cross is at the very heart of all our worship, we can never glorify God, or lift up Christ that men may be drawn to Him.

When we see the stubborn barriers of race and rancor, of color and creed being miraculously overcome, and men who had nothing in common being brought together in a fellowship that is real and satisfying, we know that God has rent the heavens of all make-believe unity and false peace, and conventional religion, and has come down in living reality to dwell with men, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

Love in Christ, Timothy
our Lord comes

"When we see the stubborn barriers of race and rancor, of color and creed being miraculously overcome, and men who had nothing in common being brought together in a fellowship that is real and satisfying, we know that God has rent the heavens of all make-believe unity and false peace, and conventional religion, and has come down in living reality to dwell with men, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God."

Dearest latter rain lights, :)

"We know we have passed from death to Life, because we Love our brothers. Anyone who does not Love, remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother, is a murderer.. and you know that no murderer has Eternal Life in him." 1 John 3:14

Love under the most horrendous testings, manifests Eternal Life -- Christ Himself -- in us. Without the presence of Love, we remain in death -- for Christ is Love, God is Love and He has appeared again -- not to bear sin, for He has already done that -- but this time to bring salvation to those who are awaiting. Can you see Him? If you have the eyes to see and the ears to hear, you can see and hear Him in those in whom He has been formed by faith, in whom He dwells by faith.

We know that we have passed from death to Life, because we Love our brothers. Many times we put limitations upon this word: "brothers" determining for our own definitions that only those who have entered into the family of God through the new birth are our brothers... and indeed I am sure in the parable of the Good Samaritan, the Levites and the Priests who walked on the otherside of the road -- ignoring their "neighbor" who had been beaten and robbed and left for dead -- felt this same self-justification.

But will Christ in us allow that to be our position? Is that His position -- He who kinned Himself to us all, while we were yet sinners? May we submit ourselves -- body/soul/spirit -- unto Him who is Wisdom and Power and Glory -- and Love.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor - serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope -- patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; Mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another -- do not be proud -- but be willing to associate with people of low position (or be willing to do menial work). Do not be conceited.

Do not repay anyone evil for evil -- be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's Wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay" says the Lord. On the contrary, "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this you will heap burning coals on his head" Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom 12:9-21

If we have tasted the powers of the age to come, (Heb 6:5) -- even tasted them in a tiny little foretaste of Glory Divine -- we have something that we can cling to -- cling to what is good -- for in our spirit, we know that LOVE is the power of the coming age, and it shall overcome all evil -- for in the Kingdom there is only Love. As we live now -- in the temporal -- in accord with that Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven -- then shall He appear, and we shall see Him as He really is -- and we shall be like Him.

This world can never receive Him -- for His Kingdom is not of this world -- but those He has called out of this world, can choose to manifest their new life in this world, as long as we are yet here. Dare to Love Extravagantly -- for this is Christ Himself in you. Do not put limitations nor definition upon Love, for God is Love -- and our finite minds cannot yet fathom the depth, nor the width, nor the length .. nor the breadth of the Love of God. May we pray to do so -- ever knowing that we yet see through a glass darkly. Yet.. faithing upon the promise of God that Love never fails. All other virtues except Faith and Love and Hope come to an end... but the Greatest of these is Love.

"We know we have passed from death to Life, because we Love our brothers. Anyone who does not Love, remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother, is a murderer.. and you know that no murderer has Eternal Life in him." 1 John 3:14

May we be love for Love in this final generation
in Christ -- Linda

I believe G_d is revealing a truth that has been in His word all along. We have a tree of knowledge that is good and evil. Its not just evil but has good. What a terrifying thought to realize we can do good yet it is not from G_d. We know good and evil but if we do our own good then we still sin. In other words, WE ARE SELF CENTERED, and not allowing G_d to be the center of our lives. If we hear this wrong we will think our own thoughts are G_ds thoughts. No wonder he will say to some I know you not. We must must get to know our L_rd as Savior and as L_rd or we shall participate in the beast. Is not man a beast when he is seperate from G_d. I believe Jesus spoke of how Pharisees clean the outside of the cup but we need our insides cleaned. That is why we need the Holy Spirit. But more than that we must obey the truth the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts lest we harden our hearts and no longer hear our L_rd saying walk this way. May we all follow his way His truth and live in his life.

Love in Y_shuah Jesus

Hi Leah, how are things?

I want to respond to your letter which I think raises some important points.

I think this sums up the problem that exists in a large portion of the church visible, that it wants to please itself, not God. There is a lot of feverish activity in charitable works, outreach etc. and many think this will be quite enough to get them to heaven. In settings where the Holy Spirit is allowed some space to move, there is still this feverish activity, only this time some believe that because they have the gifts of the Spirit, THEIR feverish activity will be acceptable to God, but the others won't. Neither is right. Salvation is not of works but by grace through faith. Yet we know that there must be works that follow salvation, so what can we do Lord to be acceptable to you?

First we have to be dead sure this fundamental shift in motivation has begun, we have done all the Word says in order to be saved, we have come to Jesus with our sorry load, we have asked Him to take it, we have asked Him to forgive us, to reside in us eternally as Lord and Saviour in our hearts, we have repented and are repenting and will continue to repent of all that we know to be wrong. Then we have to believe that He has done it. Thereafter we believe for every other promise we can find, according to the desire He places in us, including the Holy Spirit and His Gifts, according to His Grace and Mercy and never because we think we stand on our own merit. "I stand upon His merit, I know no other stand."

What now then, sit and wait with wavering faith? How to do what God requires of us - confess our inadequacy, Lord I have no love, I have no faith, I need more of the Holy Spirit and you promised me Him in greater measure, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, come to Him over and over and He will supply. Will He? Of course!! Don't you believe He is who He said He is? Isn't He one who can keep His promises?

Assuming we are all at this point then, how do we avoid doing what most of the church is doing which is self-centred and not God -centred. I think if we are seeing the distinction between the two we are already seeing the difference between good and evil, we are already pleasing God, we are already showing the evidence of His light that lights the darkness. But we are surrounded by unbelievers, what to do? Keep on shining the light inside or outside the church, keep on hanging on to the things we know are from God, keep going, not being weary in well-doing. God will not suffer us to be tempted above that which we are ABLE....Ah, able, praise the Lord, and praise His lovely Name He has made us able.

Elijah was fed by ravens. I have been so hungry in the Spiritual I have not cared who or what or how, live meat or carrion. Comforted privately from Ezekiel 34 I sat in a church noted for its dryness and lack of Holy Spirit activity. There was a Methodist minister from America, a woman - praise the Lord - she spoke on Ezekiel 34 and right into my situation. Too hungry to care about traditional or doctrinal nit-picking, God fed me. A great big dinner with all the trimmings. Keep going brethren if you know you are a child of God He will use you:

Romans 8: 8 - 10 " So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Sending love in Jesus
from Mary

Listening to the discussion going on has made me wonder once again about a subject I have never really understood. It is said that God's justice demanded a sacrifice for sin, and that Christ died to satisfy that just demand. However I cannot completely understand what law requires this. It is clear that God does not desire for us to suffer for our sins, because he took that suffering on himself in order to save us from having to suffer the full consequence of our sins. And it is also clear that God is not bound by some higher law, because a law is a thing with no existence in itself unless it is given existence by God or by man. One cannot say that God shouldn't forgive sins without a sacrifice. After all, who is there to tell God that he can't forgive sins? If God made the law of payment for sin, then it would be no more binding on God than the law of gravity is. And anyway, law exists to restrain sin, and God, having no sin, should be bound by no laws. Both would be commanded by God, and neither would limit his actions. And it certainly couldn't be the devil demanding payment for sin, because he has no power to enforce such a thing.

I don't see any of this as a challenge to my faith, because Christ's sacrifice makes perfect sense completely apart from the law. It is abundantly clear that salvation requires dying to oneself, and that none of us can accomplish it on our own. Because God suffered and died for sin, when we draw near to him, we participate not only in his holiness, which can have nothing to do with sin, but also in his atonement for sin, which frees us form our sins so that we can draw near to him in his holiness.

But anyway, I would appreciate any explanation that any of you could give for what part legal guilt plays in man's condition before God. Or is the legal terminology associated with salvation supposed to be metaphorical?


Hi Eric,

There are laws that govern the universe. God is bound to these laws only in the sense that they are immovable, He is the one that set them into motion. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, these are laws for God simply because He is God and never changes. His will for us may change, His mind may change depending on certain circumstances but His essential nature never changes, He is always a God of love, justice and righteousness, sees all, knows all and is all powerful.

God is not however, bound to man made laws or to the laws that He gives to man, but He will keep His word to us. The Old Covenant demanded that sin be cleansed through the sacrifice of blood. The law was a tutor and the animal sacrificed was given as a type to point us to the sacrifice for all time that was to come through Jesus. Paul explains it very well as to what it meant but I am with you brother, I still don't know why God chose this particular way either.

Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

The book of Hebrews probably says it best. Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." The writer of Hebrews goes on to say "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22. This is a law but why, He does not explain. He uses the word "almost" because some vessels were purified by water and some by fire. With the shed blood of Christ, there was remission of sins and by dying on the cross, He fulfilled the law. Sin demands a guilty verdict, every sinner forfeits his life and the law requires death, like you say, we die to ourselves, thereby fulfilling the law. Each time we sin, it is another guilty verdict but Jesus has still gone to the cross for us and as Paul says, His grace is sufficient for us. By going to the cross with Him, we join Jesus in His death. He gave His life for us, now we must give our lives for Him and that means giving our lives unto our brothers and sisters through love because God is love, this is how we come into union with Him.

I cannot emphasize it more in that this must be a continual effort on our parts through our free will to choose righteousness through the blood. It is true that we cannot do it without Him in us and living His life through us but we must make that constant decision to allow Him to do it. It cannot be a passive rely on positional holiness type of luke-warm attitude that leads to self righteousness, we must be willing to repent and not just once but to live our lives from day to day and from glory to glory in the power of the Holy Spirit. As soon as we admit our sinful condition and our guilty verdict as a result of that sin, we are able to renew ourselves to repentance.

I think that the mourner's bench in the old holiness churches was a good idea. We are to sanctify the congregation and what better way but to get the people holy before the service. I know that the accepted way is deliver a sermon and to ask for hands up at the end of the service and an altar call for those needing blessings and prayer and laying on of hands and such. I believe it would be better at the beginning, rather than the end.


Jay, thanks, I to for along time have thought that there is and was far to much emphasis placed on money. Thank you for coming out and stating so. I feel as christians we should learn to place more faith in our Holy Father for all our needs. I feel this way because Jesus is my and our Lord, Master, Savior, and he knows exactly what I need and when I need it. All I have to do is talk to him about it. There is a reason why we need to become so exclusively dependent on him. Number one we are going to spend an eternity together and he is our father. Everything that we will have or do depends entirely on our Savior or our Savior's love. Jesus loves us totally and eternally, so why not just give yourself over to him completely? Thank you so much for telling me that I do need to spend much more time with the concerns of my Jesus Christ. I do not want to come out of this Great Tribulation knowing that what I gave back to my own loving Holy Father for dying for me, was just a very small token of my love.

Mother's blue pen

I would also like to respond to Hans and Joy.

"Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you." Isaiah 41:21-24

Certainly we are nothing but if we are brothers and sisters in Christ, there must be something to us that deserves eternal life. God loves us.

John 10:34 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

Psalms 82 A Psalm of Asaph. "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."

This is from Psalms 82 where god is used in a sense of being judges (Myhla elohim). It was used by Jesus to prove not only could it justly be said that He was the Son of God but that the law states that we are all gods (Gr. Theoi). To take upon the divine nature is something that cannot be done unless we have some kind of divinity within us to receive it and simply put, we were created in His image, which means that even in our sinful state, we have His image stamped upon us. All of us? I would suppose so but then it has been proposed a couple of times in this group that maybe we are all in the book of life and the only ones that will be saved in the end are those that have not been erased from it at the judgment day. This discussion seems determined to stay into the eternal security question.

Frankly, it would be hard for me to believe that we are all sons of God but easy to believe that this would be God's will for us. To be a brother or sister in Christ means that we take on His nature and that is in being restored to the nature of Adam before the fall. Since we are all in a fallen nature prior to accepting Christ, it would not make sense to start acting like gods or to have the pride to even think that we could be. But many Christians do. Lucifer represents the pride in all of us, this is the mistake that he made in that self will took him captive and he wanted to be like the almighty God, the omniscient one. There is only one Creator God, He deserves all the credit for our existence and as soon as we start living for ourselves instead of living for God, we become a false god who will be brought to nothing.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So part of that divine nature is in our own humility. In that this just doesn't make sense should not worry us. We understand that as we put others first, then we are lifted up. We do not do it for our own sake but for the sake of others, which is the same as abiding in Jesus. It is not the wisdom of man but neither is God. He is so far above us in understanding that to even think that we know these answers is to leave us open for a fall. Jesus and satan are both sons of the morning, so are we. The problem is that the morning star has no light of its own, it is all a reflected light. Jesus was the true light but in the flesh could do nothing without the Father. When we trust in our own light, we miss the glory that is in the true light.


Under the old covenant God as truth could do no else but reflect our own ways upon our own heads. Eye for eye. Tooth for tooth. Live by the law; die by the law. And in that our own ways killed there was no other way to make us see our crime, dying without understanding. The sacrifices that were made were our pet critters, and we participated in the sacrifice, affected by the consequences of our own violence. As the organs of the lamb or bull sizzled and popped one could see that man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward. Part of the blood was spread around the alter and some of it was used for cleansing temple vessels meaning only death can cleanse us inside; but half of it went through the Holy Place where the appointed priest prepared to enter the awesome presence of a God perceived as too holy to have a name spoken by man. In the Holiest the blood was spread around and on the mercy seat, and a man mediated the justification of us peasants.

That is not precise, but about what happened - the idea being that even then God provided a way to change our hearts and souls. But as Hebrews says, it did not make perfect, make whole, nor reconcile us with God.

Iniquity of judging by knowing right and wrong (the law, the code of knowing good and evil), kills. And the only way we can change is by knowing the dying we cause others upon our own ears. But, of course, the cure kills and nothing is changed.

In the new covenant "Christ died for us." A worn and abused phrase of scripture. It is true, He did die for us, for our sins; and once and for all. But only believing that for our salvation changes nothing. Now the difference between the old and new covenants is that in new covenant baptism we know His dying, share His experience of hell, and are raised to glory with Him. We have the perfect means to know the consequences of unlove, in that all our iniquities are felt by Jesus; and in turn by us in baptism.

The good news, Christ also lives for us! As the eternal priest mediating the mercy of God. More than that, in baptism we are where He is, even in the Heavenly Holiest knowing the face and heart of God the Father - the very means of our salvation. There is more.

The cross symbolizes the dead wood of idolatry, the knowledge of good and evil, the power of the world system; and, in that it did not kill truth the days of the present world order are numbered. Jesus sat down on the right hand of God waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool.

Us! We now have everything we need to participate in ushering in the kingdom of God. We conquer the same way He did, as the least, as weak, as meek, as seeing only good in others though they abuse us, or believe different. Offenced in nothing, seeing no evil, the fluff of the world powers and the means of their control will cease. The way of the cross is much more than what we have yet realized. It is glory. Suffering with Him, is glory!

Now lets get off of our bad habits, mistakes, and imperfections that the accuser calls "sin." Sin is not being fully baptised in Him; not pressing on until we know Him face to face.


Dear latter rain lights,
sons/daughters of the Father of Lights,
Grace and PEACE with the Father -- through our Beloved Lord Jesus Christ! He is no longer against us.. we ARE reconciled now to His Good Graces.. may we rejoice in this restoration of all things in Christ Jesus.. and may our spirits be filled with the revelation of all that that Restoration and Redemption means!

Sin: -- yes indeed all of us have missed the mark, and have fallen short of the Glory of God! (Rom 3:23) But isn't that an absolutely amazing truth! It is so important for all of us to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us about: "The Glory of Theos".. "the Doxa of Theos" -- for this is the Standard that we all fall short of -- and it is this Standard which we must attain in order to enter the Kingdom of God. The first question that we encountered on this journey was.. can we attain this standard through our human energies (works) -- or is there another way? We, as human beings all tried to attain this perfection in our own strength to begin with... but as Christians there came a time, when we saw our failure -- and our need for the perfection of Christ to be credited to our account (reckoned unto us as Righteousness by our faith) His Gift of Righteousness implanted into us -- like a seed of radio-active plutonium placed inside us, His Implanted Divine Righteousness transforming our very cell structure -from the inside out. Simultaneously both Legally (in the Courts of Elohim in the Heavenlies) -- and Physically/Spiritually here on earth, we are changed and we are being changed; it is finished.. and it is being worked out daily .. we are being metamorphosized into something that has not yet been seen... yet when we see Christ, we shall be like Him! This is the promise of our Christian Faith.. and it is a Glorious Promise isn't it!

According to Strong's definition of "Doxa" -- the 'standard' that we all fall short of, is God's Absolute Perfection in Judgment/Opinion and View It is not the written code, the letter of the law (although the Law was the first 'physical expression' of this Perfect Judgment, Perfect Opinion, Perfect View of God .. yet His doxa also includes His Brilliance, His Majesty, His Preeminence, His Magnificence, His Absolute Perfection -- His Glorious, Radiant, Brilliant Light. This surely is why Paul spoke of the Law being spiritual! It was -- yet as a Kinsman Redeemer (seen in the book of Ruth) , it was unwilling to redeem us.. it could not stoop to our level to meet us in our place of need -- for it would have compromised its perfection.

Yet the exact representation of the Father -- Jesus, the only Begotten Son, is said to be "the Brightness of His Glory!" This Kinsman Redeemer became just like us -- kinning Himself to us .. that in our union, He might make us just like Him.. conforming us to His Image! Glory! Jesus is the manifestation of God's Brightness.. the Brilliance of God's Perfect Opinion, Judgment and View in human/Divine form -- the Blessed God/Man to whom we belong -- His Glorious Inheritance! "He", who according to the Eastern Church doctrines on the incarnation, "became man.. that man might become God". Not of the same essence as God.. but partakers of God's Divine Nature through the Graces, through the Divine Energies -- through the Glory - which radiates from Him, making it possible for us to be transformed by His Glory... from Glory to Glory.

The Glory of God -- Christ Jesus, this Hope of Glory - now dwells in our hearts -- and because He does, we now have this Glorious Hope in us -- we (Christ in us) no longer fall short, we (Christ is us) no longer miss the mark -- but now we press on, striving to apprehend THAT for which He apprehended us -- that we might become our new name! (((He in us))) is that standard, the Glory of God -- and united with Him, we are maturing -- we are growing up... we are being perfected, transformed into His Image.. "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" (Eph 4:13)

May our hearts be filled to overflowing with the revelation of the Resurrected, Glorified Living Christ Jesus -- who now lives in us. Let us embrace the suffering -- for the JOY that is set before us... for this is our Destination: to be His Glorious Inheritance in the saints.... trees of His Planting.. Oaks of Righteousness for the display of His Glory... man sons let to Glory, to manifest His Perfect Judgment, His Perfect Opinion, His Perfect View -- radiant in His Brilliance and Light. Sons of God -- in God's meaning of the term. :)

Sharing the Love-Light of that Glorious Hope: Christ in us, the Hope of Glory

Linda the Beguine

Hi all,
Hey Eric I was looking at your letter again and the final paragraph and the scripture in my mind was: Gal 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

In the Vine's and under the heading of schoolmaster in my concordance, I was surprised to find that it did not mean teacher here, but someone who brought the children to school, and did not teach. I had understood the obvious meaning for schoolmaster, while knowing in my heart of hearts that no amount of reading the law was going to teach me in any way other than very weakly, leaving me right up the creek, so to speak, and without justification. Seeing the law personified as a schoolmaster like this makes better sense to me in that my legal guilt, fact, frustrates me to the point of crying out "take me to school, take me to Christ where all the answers are, "that I might be justified by faith"." Then the next verse is (25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." So the fact of our legal guilt is what pronounces death on us, and the law being unfulfillable by us in the flesh transports us to Christ, who fulfilled it, by giving us Himself, to do what we could not do ourselves.
God bless,

Hi Jay and my friends
I am so glad you tackled these gods verses. Lately I have heard what I consider to probably be heresy. Preachers preaching we are gods as though somehow we have equality to the begotten son of G_d. This is the granddaddy of deception. If the very son Of G_d yields to the Father when he literally is truly G_d, then we whom are only adopted best be very careful on how we treat our adoption.

I would rather be seen as weak, rather then grasp at my dear L-rds throne. G_d will do the deciding of who rules and reigns. I trust him. For now I am content to be a servant until the adoption is complete.

blessings in Y_shuahs name

Hi Eric,

The premise is that man is the offspring of God (Luke 3 accounts for that). Man(kind) goes through a process of learning and transformation, which brings him to the state God has planned for him. We're going full circle, we're coming from God, exist through God, and go to God (Rom 11).

During this proces, we go through the state of appreciating good, by experiencing both good and evil. To help distinguish what is good and bad, right and wrong, we need a law. This standard tells us what is right, and how to make something right, which is wrong. The Law is given by God, and it teaches that it requires a life to reconcile. It is written that without blood, there is no forgiveness for sin, and the life is in the blood. As it was in paradise: when found at fault with God, not obeying the command, Adam had to die, his life was taken as payment for the disobedience. Living is obedience to God, disobedience is death or our own will.

When the law was given, a similar price was set for disobedience. You have to pay with a life that you own, in this case the life of an animal.

So we are taught by the law, that life is payment for sin, and so God within the bounds of the law, but more importantly understandable and appreciable by man in his state of mind, offers His Son, which is the offer of God Himself to pay for the sin of the world.

So in the state God has brought us 'knowing good and evil', we have learned by law the difference between them, and also we learned that life is payment for sin. In this context, God shows us the unbelievable act of love, by giving His own life as payment for all our transgressions.

This act makes a deep impression on man (me included), when he is convinced of transgressing against the holy law of God by the Holy Spirit, and realizes that God does not hold it against him (wauw).

So legal guilt is part of the process of learning to appreciate the Love that God is, and gives. It's the first step to grow from the state of mind 'good and evil' to the state of mind 'tree of life'. Going back to Eden filled with experience, and a deep Love for God, who as our Father has taught us His nature, and built our character to be that of His Son. Meek, humble, long-suffering, obedient, and full of love. On our way back to Eden, we have to pass the flaming sword. We all have to pass through the cleansing fire to get rid of Self. His Spirit is fire, and will purify us. Circumstances bring up parts of self, which will be burned in this fire. That's learning by experience.

Bottomline is, that God knows the end. It's not a surprise for Him, and we are invited to bank on the certainty of the outcome, and focus on our relation with Him through our Lord Jesus, who will lead us by His Spirit, and His Word.

Our walk with God should be more relation-orientated than goal orientated. Walking WITH the Lord, instead of walking FOR the Lord.

Hope this helps, blessings,


The Fighters.

The leader in the battle is God: but man fights sometimes alongside and sometimes against Him.

The Warrior God.

'The Lord of Hosts '---the Lord of Sabaoth, as we know it familiarly in our Bibles---is a title with which we are well acquainted throughout the whole Scriptures. It is the war-cry of the Books of Kings, and is stamped on the utterances of Isaiah and the Prophets; in its Hebrew form it finds its way into the New Testament in the Epistle to the Romans and the Epistle of St. Jude. It would seem to represent the idea of a great King marching to war, who is a most strong tower to all them that put their trust in Him, to whom all things in heaven and in earth and under the earth do bow, and whom they obey.

The Lord of Hosts is God the Father.---We see the creating Father as the Warrior in such visions as were vouchsafed, for instance, to Micaiah, the prophet, in the Book of Kings, where the Lord is seen by His servant sitting on His throne. At His right hand and at His left stand all the hosts of heaven, from whom go forth ministers of wrath and judgment into the world, and kings move where they are impelled, and the arrow shot at a venture is guided by an unknown hand to be the weapon of destiny. The prophet Isaiah also sees God in His Majesty adored by veiled seraphs, enthorned in glory and magnified in mystery by the trembling and hiding of all created things. The inspired Evangelists gazes into heaven, where angels pass and repass on missions of love or messages of wrath, where the vials of God's vengeance are stored with judgment, and blessings flow forth from His hand, where Churches are upheld or are removed, where nations and kings are judged, and all the busy life of the world is ' bound by gold chains about the feet of God.' ' The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee'; ' For I am a great King, saith the Lord of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.'

The Lord of Hosts is God the Son.---The Incarnate Son too is Captain of the hosts of the Lord as well as Prince of Peace. Christ's life on earth as Jesus was one long fight: the life of Jesus exhibits Him a prey to hypocrisy and malice, to dark intrigues and covetous compacts, to barefaced lies and slanderous accusations, to the pretended indignation of self-seeking patriots. Satan, who tempted Jesus with bribes in the wilderness, with fears in Gethsemane, with death-alarms and horrors upon the Cross, had his allies in Peter, the forward and earthly-tempered friend; in the nationalist party, of Pharisees and Herodians; in Judas, the betrayer; in the fickle mob and the wicked rulers. He tempted and he slandered. He tempted, that he might have something to accuse. Foiled in this, he invented accusations. So the Simple-hearted Prophet, who ' came not to destroy, but to fulfill Law and Prophets,' was accused to the High Priest, as One who had declared He would overthrow the Temple; and He who had resisted the people's wish to make Him a king was handed over to secular arm, to Pilate and the Roman government, as a rival and a plotter against Caesar. Insidious temptations and unscrupulous falsehoods, dressed up as truth, are the arts in which Satan excels. He tried them against Jesus, and was entirely baffled.

Christ fought too after this human life was over, and fights still. The core of John's revelation is ' the lamb making war with the beast.' This warfare and its issues constitute the underlying unity of the whole book. The beast is the beast---the base element in human life---the struggle with which and the conquest of which make an angelic like life possible. The conquest of the beast by the Lamb is the meaning of all history in its larger aspect and of all individual biography. The interest which attaches to every piece of biographical literature arises from the fact that it shows how the battle went in some particular case. The Book of Revelation is, for this reason, in some grand sense a summary of all human history, as it is also a typical picture of all personal struggle. It is a terrific warfare, but only pessimism says that its issue is doubtful.

The battle is often pictured as a war between the Lamb and the beast. The beast may be taken to denote the rebellion of the animal, the untamed, the sensual, the violent element, blatant and blasphemous. But what makes the beast as distinguished from the man is that there is no direct correspondence of the animal with God, and there never can be. What we have to consider in our day is that the beast may be tamed, and remain the beast. You may carry out social reform, give every one decent conditions of living, suppress to a great degree drunkenness and immorality, silence the scoffer, and yet be further from your goal than ever. A contented materialism is as far from God as then most rebellious infidelity, and may even be harder for the Christian preacher to deal with.

The Lord of Hosts is God the Spirit.---The Holy Ghost---God outgoing through mankind---fights continually. As the cause of Christ goes forward, it creates ever intenser antipathy. The progress of His coronation provokes all the baser elements in the world and out of it, and they gather themselves together for one supreme effort. Thus good and evil will go on developing, as the good getting better, and the bad getting worse, till they meet in one last decisive conflict. It is well for us to realize this. It saves us from dejection and disappointment. The beast in humanity is constantly shaking himself loos and rising up when we thought he had been killed. Nothing is more surprising than this sudden abatement of inactivity of old evils and sins, and nothing is more disheartening. We are inclined sometimes to lose hope of the final victory of good. But let us remember that both wheat and tares are to grow together till the harvest.

National morality moves slowly. It can only move in so far as individual Christians have practiced and proved the methods of the Lamb, and infused His spirit into the national life. . . . Daily we must humble ourselves, control ourselves, purify ourselves of lust and greed, so that in our family, social, or political life we may be counted worthy gradually to supplant the weapons of Elijah by the weapons of the Lamb.

The hosts of the Lord are manifold. There is, first, the great army of indirect agents that God uses in the service of man, which are all marshaled under the banner of the Lord of Hosts. History, ancient and modern, is full of the wonders done by that which we call ' chance,' but which is really the hidden action of God, and His unexplained interference through His creatures. Light, heat, and electricity; attraction, gravitation; fire and hail; snow and fog; stormy winds fulfilling His word; suns and moons and stars of light---all are the agents and ministers of God.

Napoleon is hurled out of Russia by fire and frost, just as Titus, centuries before him, found himself powerless to save the doomed temple at Jerusalem by reason of mysterious agencies which fought against him. Here the worst can be caught weeping over a daisy. This was God's indirect agent of appeal. Here a chance wound, as it seemed, turns the whole career of St. Ignatius; here a chance Gospel which he heard in church is the crisis in the life of St. Francis. Here a chance meeting with a friend, or even a book which has turned aside a bullet, has shown the agencies for our protection which god uses all around us; but we congratulate ourselves and call it good luck.

But these involuntary forces play only the minor part---indeed they might more properly be called munitions than armies. The real army of the Lord is a volunteer one, He knows as well as any earthly commander that ' one volunteer is worth three pressed men,' and all His army are free to fight or refuse to fight. But if they refuse it is at their peril, just as the man who refuses to volunteer against an invasion refuses at his peril. God cannot get His will done in Heaven without fighting angels, nor His will done in earth as in heaven without men who will fight.

God's army moves forward under the conquering banner of the Lord of Hosts; He appeals to us now to come to His side, as He rides forth conquering and to conquer. It will be to our shame and confusion if the recording angel publishes abroad the indictment of our cowardice, and the sentence of our sloth---' Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the Lord, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty.'

Thy to follow the Christ a very little way, and illustrations of this inevitableness of war will occur to you. Someone or other will soon be offended with you only because you act as a Christian must: someone will be annoyed with you because you will not fall in with his dubious practices, will not be as lazy or dishonest or easy about moral evil as would be convenient for his own way of life: someone will think your conscientiousness may spoil his own selfish little game and interfere with unfair privileges of his: someone will object to you because you express your opinion as an equal: someone will hate you for trying to live a good life, because good is good and evil is evil. and evil cannot but hate good. Then there will be war. There is no help for it, except the help which lies in facing the fact at times and meeting it with a mind prepared. There was war in heaven: then war there must be on earth. God cannot spare His fighting angel Michael, and He cannot spare you, whoever of you has the heart to fight in the quarrel of God.

ii. ' Men of war fit for the battle.'

We may fight against God.---This recalls Gamaliel's famous warning to the Sanhedrin: 'Lest haply ye be found even to fight against God '---a warning that fully bears out his traditional wisdom. "It was a good thought," says Matthew Henry, commenting on this dictum. Moreover it is a Scriptural thought. Gammaliel gathered his counsel. King Abijah cried, ' Fight ye not against the Lord God of your fathers; for ye shall not prosper.' Eliphaz cried concerning the wicked man: ' He stretcheth out his hand against God, and strengtheneth himself against the Almighty. He runneth upon him, even on his neck, upon the thick bosses of his bucklers.' Isaiah uttered the same strange cry: ' Woe to him that striveth with his Maker.'

The possibility which gamaliel entertains is recognized throughout the Book of Life. ' Lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.' We must mark that ' lest.' It is a possibility. It would seem impossible. The idea of fighting against God might well make us shudder. The very possibility of our doing this should drive us to vigilant and perpetual prayer. Nor can we afford to slur that ' ye.' They were religious people who were alluded to. Many of them were religious leaders. Is it possible for such to be found fighting against God? Yes: they have often done it. The army of the Lord has rebelled against its King. Let us consider the ways in which ' haply ' we ' may be found even to fight against God.' Let us see if Gamaliel's message is not seasonable still.

We fight against God through ignorance, claiming all the time to be fighting on His side. This has happened many times to sincerely good people. Look at the fearful suffering and bloodshed which marked the Reformation, when human passion burned at its fiercest under both the priestly robe and the Geneva gown. Or come to other periods, and recall how the Church, shutting her eyes blindly to the truth which god was teaching men, resisted the discoveries of science from the days of Galileo till modern times. We smile now as we think of the dismay and the bitterness when geology overthrew closely held traditions respecting the age of the earth and the how of the interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis. Even the use of chloroform was denounced in the name of religion. We may say these people cannot be blamed, if they acted in good faith; they knew no better. Yes, but could they not have known better if they had liked? Did they not say, in effect, "We believe so and so to be true---if you produce facts which contradict any of our beliefs we are not going to listen to you. We are so sure you are wrong that we can condemn you without trial." How foolish is all such passion! As if any proved fact can be a peril to Divine truth. As if God were not the father of lights, from whom, every light given to man must come. To make war against the new revelation of truth is to fight against the Holy Ghost. This, in honest, helpless ignorance, will surely be forgiven, though it suffers a heavy penalty. But what of willful ignorance---what of those of whom it is said [and they were very pious people], ' For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have closed lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart'? Fighting against God, they lose.

If we fight for God we must learn to fight.---" Trust in the Lord and keep your powder dry," said the Puritans of Cromwell. We need not expect God to keep our powder dry. Unless there is faithful and resolute preparation on our part we shall be beaten in the fight. Now it is a most remarkable thing that common-sense should be accepted in every realm of life but the spiritual. We cannot expect to win any war unless we make preparations for the struggle; and yet men hope to win, without making preparation, the spiritual battles that they are called to wage every day. One would have thought that they would have renewed their faith and revived their courage every day before venturing into the field. One would have thought they would have burnished their armor and tempered their weapons. One would have expected them to be in desperate earnest in their preparation for the battle on which eternal well-being depends. But no; they are content to let the rust eat into their weapons, and the damp spoil their powder, and then they think when they fail that it is God's fault, not theirs.

We must learn to fight effectively. We may ' beat the air ' in fighting, not by fighting with the wrong foe, but by fighting with the real foe wrongly. Which of us has not done this? Which of us has not often been foiled in encountering his besetting sin? Which of us has not regretted, and resolved, and determined, yes, and prayed, against his chief sin, and yet fallen again before it as soon as it assailed him This is sad, and wrong, and deeply discouraging: we ought to have strength, considering what a motive Christ has given us in His own death, considering what an Almighty helper Christ has promised to us in His Holy Spirit. It is for want of faith; for want of simply accepting what is simply offered for want of really believing that there is a Holy Spirit given to all men for the asking, that we thus fall, even when experience of sin, and sorrow for sin, and resolution against sin, have not been wholly wanting.

Now, if this be so, even with regret, even with resolution, even with prayer, what can be expected where all these things are in great part wanting? where there is an utter want of earnestness, of appreciation of holiness, of desire after heaven? where a person goes to the very edge of temptation, and only just hopes that he may not pass the bounds? where the means of grace are slightly used and little valued? where the conscience wakes only to punish, never to forewarn, never to forearm? Can we call such Christians combatants at all? Who shall call that fighting in which every single blow beats the air?

We must learn to keep on fighting.---Fighting is no use if it is not a fight to a finish. And sometimes it is very hard to go on. But there is One who knows exactly what we are, and what we can bear. Our constitution, our circumstances, are understood by Him; He has ordained them for us. And yet is not tempting us to sink; He is tempting us to rise. He has allowed us to enter into this conflict that we may come out of it stronger men. He does not desire us to fall in it. If we commit ourselves to Him, He will not suffer us to fall in it. The falls we have had are all so many motives and goads to put that trust in Him which they show us that we cannot put in ourselves; and every lust of the flesh may be the instrument, in His hands, of awakening a stronger lust of the spirit to overcome it: and that temperament which we have murmured against, when we despaired of directing it by our own wisdom, if we leave it in His hands may prove to be the fittest for the purposes to which he has destined us.

In Christ,
Timothy maranatha

Good exists by the existence of evil. These are opposites, and as with all opposites, they cannot exist on their own. Now with good and evil, something strange is going on, a single event can be experienced as good or as evil, depending on the purpose, or the angle at which you look at it.

When I punish my son, he views it as evil, I view it as good since I want to teach him something. At some point in time, my son may look back at events that happened in his life, and review the punishment as good, since now he understands the purpose.

When our Lord Jesus died on the cross, that was the biggest evil and injustice ever accomplished in the universe. Still it was the will of God, and it was good, because of it's purpose of saving the world.

All things in life have a purpose, and because God ordained them and gave them purpose they are good, even though we may not understand, and even we may experience them as evil. The struggle of Paul, as we all have, is the struggle to become perfect, to become as our elder brother Jesus. The struggle between good and evil he and we experience serves a purpose, it's the path by which we learn, and are growing up to become what God wants us (His children) to be. Which means that the evil becomes good, once you agree with the Lord on the lessons to be learned.

In this state of mind, there is good and evil, as defined by the law, and as defined by moral, and as defined by our feelings towards events, but by reason of purpose, it's all good, and from God. And as I quoted earlier, thank God ALWAYS for ALL THINGS.

Hope this helps, and blessings,


Sister Mary, Brother Hans, and to all open minds:

Words are precarious at best. For instance I had read the Genesis story a thousand times, but then one day when I got to the phrase, knowledge of good and evil, I heard it as "knowledge of good and evil."

The original sin, or genesis of all sins, is knowing good and evil for the purpose of having our own way, as idolators - even while professing to be changed. Since the penalty for idolatry is death and we cannot put it away, we hide our abominations in the unconscious and say "I have not sinned." That is, you will deny it as I did, and still occasionally do.

I offer here a few scriptures relating to knowledge of good and evil. The term is only used in Genesis 3 and 3, but is synonymous with iniquity and worship of images.

The stunning observation of man's iniquity as I see it is clearly illustrated in Genesis. In Genesis 2 God commands us not to eat the fruit of it; but then in Genesis we do eat of it; and then, in Genesis 4 we consume it with both hands as if it is now God's will. As we do to this day, one and all. There is a blindness here that can only be explained by spirit.

The scriptures in and of themselves, loosely jointed, and ambivalent according to the purposes of the reader - without revelation - prove little as we read them. One of the best reasons why I have growing confidence in my "theory" is that it fits together. For instance we are commanded not to judge. Knowledge of good and evil begs judgment. For instance, we are instructed to give the greater attention to those who seem to be the weaker among us: to undo a system that feeds on the pride generated at the conception of good and evil knowledge. And for instance, the perfect Christian is one who is not offended in any thing: love sees no fault.

To further qualify the value of understanding, and repentance from dead idolatry to living faith: understanding in itself cannot change the world. Only love can - and that, the love of God. But love, to understand what love is, may now be defined as not imagining evil against our neighbors. Love is essential - I admit - and understanding the source of hatred will only help.

I appreciate Hans' observation that there is something vital to be learned in iniquity, in the world, in temporality. And I suggest that that is to learn by experience the consequences of the one thing that can destroy paradise, and put it away. And Mary, you will make it to glory just fine without ever hearing about the evil of knowing right and wrong, living by the law of man, and being offended by what appears to be evil; because you love indeed (and that covers all your sins).

The purpose of iniquity (in-equity) is to provide the means for man's control over man. And when we ultimately confess our offense we will stop judging. Think about that word. Judge not, and be not judged. That puts the emphasis on the origin of violence. Judging inevitably follows from knowing right and wrong. So why do we yet feel guilty for not keeping the law? The genesis temptation is yet within us and needs to be recognized and confessed.

One law: Thy law, is truth. I (Jesus) am truth. And the law proceeds from My mouth. He takes away the old covenant that the new may be established (Heb 10:9). We cannot serve the love of power, and God.

Good luck with this. I will not come over night. Related scriptures attached. Edifylesser

Hi Ed, Edword and Edify,

You know Ed that I really like your mention of repentance, love, unity, humility and all the things that are so important to us. I do need you however to help me understand a few things that I am not clear about with what you are trying to get across.

(Missing messages not posted here are at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/latter_rain_list)

For example, you wrote that:

"Any differences that you and I have are in the words, love, obedience, holiness, and sin: (To me) Love is keeping His commandments. Obedience is love. Holiness is purity of sight (not realizing the horrors of evil or good attributions). And, sin is ignoring God."

There may be differences there but what are they? Since we are commanded to love, I will try.

You mentioned also that you "believe that there is no good or evil, in truth. It is the invention of Lucifer, fabricating iniquity, the reality of the world system." Then I need to ask you what is real then? Besides the reality of the world system.

I really don't think it is the differences that bother but the things that I cannot understand; you will need to help me. Another example is the statement "But we will not know what love is while we yet exist as gods, knowing the power of free will and judgment according to the sacred religious code of right and wrong." That is over my head, Ed, please explain. Or maybe someone else can help me with my confusion. I cannot understand how we will not know love as long as we have the knowledge of these things and how that makes us gods. Are we not free to love regardless?

You also mentioned this statement, Ed. "Iniquity of judging by knowing right and wrong (the law, the code of knowing good and evil), kills. And the only way we can change is by knowing the dying we cause others upon our own ears. But, of course, the cure kills and nothing is changed."...... No matter how many times I read this, I cannot understand the point that you are making.

It is real hard to respond to you, I am sorry for that but I must stay focused on what this list is designed for and that is to confront divisiveness. Confusion can get pretty ugly if it is only in misunderstanding, I hope that you can help.

Maybe you can explain this for us that you wrote Mary... "I know I live in a different reality, and I think you should join me. It gets a little lonesome here, and I think others will follow." You mention that you "think Jesus will eventually lead us all out of the reality of the present world order." Yet again mention that "the reality of a good and evil system is of our own collective making." It is real or not? Either you are contradicting yourself or I just cannot understand your logic. I believe that sin and evil are very real, not just in our imagination. You also said to Mary that "We "exist" in reality. We live in truth. Two separate worlds." ....

So truth is not real either? Or am I misunderstanding you? I have to ask again, what is real for you? The only thing that I seem to understand about you is why it is so lonesome there.

Your last message signed off with "I will not come over night." Please tell us what you meant by that.



Hi, I'll try to help in sharing what I understand.

"But we will not know what love is while we yet exist as gods, knowing the power of free will and judgment according to the sacred religious code of right and wrong."

I think the angle here is, that if we believe, that it's mans own fault that he does not accept our Lord Jesus as saviour, while he has the chance, we place man on the throne (being god in his own kingdom), and judge him at the same time, because we believe this is wrong, with all the consequences that result from it.

However if we believe that God is sovereign, and write His laws in our heart and mind as He promissed to do with the new covenant (eze 36, jer 31), then we judge not, but try to discern what the Lord is doing, and are available for when He wants to use us.

Similar wrt the path of obedience, the sanctification, or growing up as a son of God. We too easily judge, rather than support and help. This also is rooted in the good-evil consciousness. Support and help would flow from a life/love consciousness.

Living in the realm of good and evil, is viewing the events from our point of view. Living in the realm of life, you accept all out of the hand of God, and you left good/evil and judgement behind you. All you are concerned with is to let the life and love flow to others.

By doing so, you will encounter the realm of good and evil again, and this has a rejoice-sentiment attached to it, but no judgment.

1cor 13:4 4 The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil, 6 rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;

It seems that Love does recognize evil, but does not impute it. So when you live in the life/love realm, you still see and realize that there is good and evil, but your reaction is different. Once we reach that state, we are ready as our Lord Jesus to judge the world. Then we can judge in Love.

Good and evil are temporarily, and for the purpose of learning. Love is truth. Good and evil are consumed by Love. The more we are filled with the love of God, the more we detach from good/evil, and grow into truth. When all are filled with Love, only good remains, since no one seeks himself, only God remains, and God is Love.

Hope this helps without making the confusion bigger.



Hi Hans,

Yes, this does help but only because it is real to me. I understand it, it is what I believe also. I also believe as you do that the saints will judge the world, we must use the spiritual discernment that God has given us to judge rightly and not base it on prejudice. That means false doctrine is exposed through a spiritual discernment. But what you say bears witness to my spirit, this is how it works, no confusion there and it is in language that I can understand. When Jesus first came, He said that He was not sent to judge the world but to save it. Well, the second coming is different, it is reaping the harvest where sifting occurs and we are about to come into that judgment which begins at the house of God. As God judges, He uses His people to execute that judgment, this is also what you are saying and I accept it. I think also that we are there. Judgment is not always in retribution for as we accept Jesus, we are judged innocent and righteous. I also think that if we are to be judges in this matter, that as His body, we are part of that second coming as well, but that is another controversy for another time.

I do not believe that spirits, whether good or evil are not real. The flight from reality into another dimension of "truth" is escapism, psychotic denial, schizophrenic dualism, occasion for exorcism found in gnosticism and christian science, things we should stay away from and warn others of the false teaching. Iniquity is just as real as truth in our present existence, however temporal it is. Just because we cannot see them does not disprove their existence, after all faith is evidence of things not seen but we have the spirit of God bearing witness and that is very real to those that have experiential faith.

Do we accept those with these false teaching as brothers? Yes, many of them are saved but if they are spiritual, and I mean spiritual in the sense of the HOLY Spirit, they will repent of false doctrine and be part of the unity of truth that Jesus is bringing and not try to push their private interpretations on us. Remember that those with special agendas are trying to have us follow them, it is about them and their pet doctrines, not about Jesus, still they come in His name thinking it came from God. Pride drives them further because of the delusions. Generally, they think that they have the truth, becoming a truth unto themselves and if you do not accept their version of the truth that you are rejecting God, making themselves in effect false christs. Without putting away the false doctrine they will separate from the true remnant to seek those that will follow their own special agendas but we can only pray that they will see the errors and come to the truth, the "true" truth, the deceptions will spread no further and God gives us the wisdom to know the difference.

Just my opinion, thanks Hans.


Hi all,

John 10:4,5 " And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."

Ed I really tried to get what you meant, and your last letter seemed to me to be the most like what I know, though there was some stuff that didn't seem right. I looked through all the correspondence, and you seemed to me to be bringing the same thing along in each, I felt there was probably something you had experienced in church that contributed to your view. But there were some statements that just plain didn't sit right at all, no matter how I looked at them, they did not accord with what I know to be right in my interior.

In the last letter speaking of judging and concealing idolatry, it was as if you had discovered a true horror in the revelation that humans love power over each other, even in the church. I think this is right, and is a common experience to many who visit here. But I also think that those of us who know we are in Christ do firmly reject that principle as evil, and make every effort to repent of it. We have talked a lot about the church visible, about Babylon, and many of us have "come out" - and being here, knowing unity in the Holy Spirit, there is a freedom to actively pursue fellowship with each other according to the authority of God, and not that of man. It is precious to find somewhere where we may voice our feelings without fear, and be free to hear the voice of God to our hearts in all meekness and humility, this is how the Lord speaks in His infinite kindness.

I cannot think that God hides any important truth from his children behind difficult intellectual concepts: this would rather encourage elitism and victories for the power-hungry. If it cannot be made plain to see, it cannot come from the heart of God, who cares for the least of us, and the despised of the world. In humility ourselves it is always best to reconsider our position if we find there are no takers for our argument: we know we are not despised who repent of error, and none of us is immune from making mistakes.

I am concerned, like Jay is, about the loneliness that you express. Most here have an experience of that. If we were in a real room we could hug you to us and it would feel much better. Words have to suffice here, and it is not easy to minister when there are no faces, no eyes to look into, no hands to hold onto. But it is surprising how well we do for all the lack of normal comforts. Can you perhaps come and tell us about what goes on in your heart, rather than your mind, we would probably find there are no strangers here after all.

Sending you love in our precious Jesus,

Thank you Hans,

You are saying two things that I can really identify with. That love itself works a changed consciousness. For instance in the case of Sister Teresa; she never asked a street derelict what his or her doctrine was before administering love in deed. And you have observed that God is using evil working toward a good end.

Love, among other graces, thinks no evil. And love does whatever needs to be done to save another's life.

Love is the commandment, and love in and of itself - rather the love of God, Himself - will conquer all. And it will conquer all without the benefit of my theories.

Jay, I am not peddling kickapoo joy juice here. I am living the new covenant where I have the mercy to be convinced in my own mind, in the Holy Spirit's own time and way. I have never claimed to know anything at all. I am still in school, learning, where what I know is yet hypothetical compared to what Jesus will eventually teach me. And I am opening my thoughts - and heart - to you because I think it is safe here. I think I can trust you to not close my account on the basis of my false doctrine: of course it is false, shot through with errors, and incomplete. That is why I share them, I am not complete living in a cave. So when I post my errors for all to see I am asking for validation, or correction. But if I am "wrong" and there is some sacred doctrine here that men need to defend for Jesus, then I'll just keep walking.

Think about it. The traditional environment enforcing sacred doctrine has always crucified anyone who questions it. And we are back in the dark ages. If my theology threatens yours, then defend yourself! And iron sharpens iron. I thought that was what we were here for, in part.

Again, immutable doctrine is anathema to repentance. Stay with your five-fold ministry. Empower us timid pew setters.

You bet, it is escapism, I am sick of the present reality and I want to go home.

Concerning "any difference we have in words," in this reality where our own sight confirms our own righteousness, each one in effect speaks a different language. For instance while many yet define holiness as something like ritual cleanliness, or keeping the law perfectly; I think holiness is more a purity of sight in seeing others, than in the way we see ourselves. "For in many things we offend all. If a man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man; able also to bridle the whole body (James 3:2)."

Let me ask you for a clarification. If eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is forbidden in Genesis 2 and tempted and consummated in Genesis 3, how can we now eat it with both hands every day (from Genesis 4 on) as if God's commandment is somehow voided?

Check out the terms, social reality, relativism, Zeitgeist, attribution, and ego bias. Man has no computer like connection to factors in the cosmos. We perceive them, and interpret them accoding to their relevance to individual image and purpose. And while there is enormous latitude for error in thought and perception, most folks take their own sight at face value. And where everyone does this, we live in Babylon.

Communication is precarious, and we need to factor out our subjective errors wherever and however we can. Referring to "we will not know what love is," the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, and law gives us the power to judge others and excuse ourselves. And that power goes to our heads in god-like existence that we want to hold onto.

Regardless, as you say well, by faith the lingering artifacts of idolatry give way to the grace of God and gifts of the Holy Spirit. But if we live constantly on the mountain, we will never repent.

Practice of the letter of law kills. Not my idea, but scripture. Knowing good and evil kills - not my idea but scripture. The way that seems right to us leads to death: not my idea, but scripture. Knowledge of good and evil has a new name in our day. Now, knowing right and wrong seems to be gospel. But it is not the way of faith. And we cannot live by both - not my idea, but scripture.

I have to go now. The one thing we must do is press on to entering into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, forsaking not the assembling or ourselves together. Assembly is vital. We must understand our offending ways that split and prevent unity. And what seems right (reality of the place we live) drives apart and in effect kills our own members.


Hi Ed,

I have to say that this is a perfect response here, one that I was hoping for. Love is the important thing and as long as we have the humility to go with it, we all do well. It is true, we are all still learning.

What you say here, I can understand. Tradition is at the core with many and it is pride that keeps them under the delusion of the doctrines of men. Once we come to the conclusion that we are willing to put away that pride for the sake of enduring sound doctrine, we finally come to the point where we as a group can come to the unity that Jesus has prayed for. Many included in the five-fold can understand but it is according to the calling of God that puts us in the position of recognizing these truths. There are many in the five fold that have come into it without the truth but rather just to jump on the bandwagon. Since learning is progressive, that's fine, until they get all puffed up and try to push their own peculiar doctrines. On the flip side is allowing ourselves to know the kind of truth that sets us free to be on the learning side of sound doctrine; that's Jesus, through the power of His Holy Spirit.

I want to go home too, but until then, we have work to do right here. This has not been a waste of time, in fact everything discussed here has been according to our current discussions. I cannot apologize for having a firm focus and taking hard stands but you sure do take the heat with truth and dignity, I hope and pray that we all can do as well. Like you say, that is what we are here for. Thanks Ed.


Why is life a battle? There are more answers than one. Some would say, because of the belligerency of human nature.

Now there is no doubt that in every strong character there are strains of belligerence, and some men reach the zenith of their power in opposition. The apostolic allusions to games and contests, wrestling and warfare, show that the forces of emulation which pulsate restlessly in our blood can be transmuted into spiritual qualities; and the kindled consciousness of power which makes the soldier can contribute to the nurture of faith. Our trust in God and the victory of His cause rises to nobler heights with the difficulties which appear in our lot, and amidst the contradictions of sinners; and our hearts would not be satisfied unless this foundation-principle of character could show itself strong and valiant on many a difficult field.

There are those who even congratulate themselves, when life is ending, that they have contended so well. They count their laurels. They relate with pride how they worsted some competitor in debate or in business; how they shrewdly circumvented some fellow-man. They look at life as nothing but a battle, and, like some old soldier, live over in their age the fierce encounters of bygone days. It is hard, however, to have much admiration for such a spectacle. That a dying man should not be a man of peace is almost horrible. Even on actual fields of blood, dying enemies clasp hands and enter the other world friends. Can we imagine St. Paul flushing in his last moments with remembrance of his valor? It was not this that made him glad. Our common translation misinterprets him. He did not say, ' I have fought a good fight,' as though his fighting qualities were the source of his satisfaction. He said, ' I have fought the good fight.' He rejoices not in his own bravery, but in the justice of his cause. He had not been fighting for self, or money, or office. He had been a warrior indeed---but for truth and righteousness. He had been contending against sin---in the world and in his own soul. He had been privileged to range himself with goodness and truth in their conflict with vice and error. This was his first source of satisfaction as he reviewed his life. Forced to fight, he had fought on the right side. Covered with wounds, he could say that every one was a mark of his loyalty to God. He was glad that he had fought the good fight; that, in a world of conflict, he had by Divine grace given all his power to the side of God, and truth, and righteousness. This was quite another spirit than that of an aged warrior telling over the battles of his youth.

The true answer is that perpetual battle is the condition of progress. That is why we posses the fighting instinct.

It is by conflict that progress is made in Nature. It is no exaggeration, nor is it a mere figure of speech, to say that progress is accomplished through blood. The conflict between the plants which occupy the same space, between the very blades of grass on the same plot, between the trees which form the forest, may not literally be marked in blood; but they are marked, just as much as the competition among carnivore or human beings, by the ruthless extermination of the weaker. When we pass from the plant to the animal world, we everywhere find conflict---conflict arising from the fundamental conditions of existence, which demand an excess of reproduction. In the animal world this conflict is often waged under conditions of peculiar complexity; it is a fight for food between members of the same species, as well as against members of other species.

It is by conflict that the Human Race makes progress. Start with a comparatively unevolved savage, and we see what the struggle for life will do for him. When we meet him first he is sitting, we shall suppose, in the sun. Let us also suppose---and it requires no imagination to suppose it---that he has no wish to do anything else than sit in the sun, and that he is perfectly contented, and perfectly happy. Nature around him, visible and invisible, is as still as he is, as inert apparently, as unconcerned. Neither molests the other; they have no connection with each other. Yet it is not so. That savage is the victim of a conspiracy. Nature has designs upon him, wants to do something to him. That something is to move him. Why does it wish to move him? Because movement is work, and work is exercise, and exercise may mean a further conditioning of the part of him that is exercised. How does it set about moving him? By moving itself. Everything else being in motion, it is impossible for him to resist. The sun moves away to the west and he must move or freeze with cold. As the sun continues to move, twilight falls and wild animals move from their lairs and he must move or be eaten. The food he ate in the morning has dissolved and moved away to nourish the cells of his body, and more food must soon be moved to take its place or he must starve. So he starts up, he works, he seeks food, shelter, safety; and those movements make marks in his body, brace muscles, stimulate nerves, quicken intelligence, create habits, and he becomes more able and more willing to repeat these movements and so becomes a stronger and a higher man. Multiply these movements and you multiply him. Make him do things he has never done before, and he will become what he never was before. Let the earth move round in its orbit till the sun is far away and the winter snows begin to fall. He must either move away, and move very fast, to find the sun again; or he must chase, and also very fast, some thick-furred animal, and kill it, and clothe himself with its skin. Thus from a man he has become a hunter, a different kind of a man, a further man. He did not wish to become a hunter; he had to become a hunter. All that he wished was to sit in the sun and be let alone, and but for a Nature around him which would not rest, or let him alone, he would have sat on there till he died. The universe has to be so ordered that that which man would not have done alone he should be compelled to do. In other words it was necessary to introduce into Nature, and into Human Nature, some such principle as the Struggle for Life. Without that he would have continued for ever as he was.

And it is by struggle that the Individual makes progress. In the secret chamber of a single soul, hidden away from the light of the sun, rages a conflict deeper in its origin mightier in its elements, broader in its compass, and more momentous in its issues than any outward war that convulses thrones and shakes continents. In the terrible strife there going on, myriad's of spirits hasten to marshal themselves as combatants and allies; the clang of its unearthly weapons rings through all the realm of the Invisible; its vicissitudes are watched by millions of eager gazers in the high places of the creation; and its issues involve the weal or woe of a being molded in the image of God and born to the high heritage of his eternity. This contest is the substance of which all others are but shadows. This is the one grand central struggle of which all others are but border skirmishes, and by which, sooner or later, they will all infallibly be determined. How goes the battle in the human heart? Tell us that, and we shall spare you the trouble of forecasting the issues of the outward struggles of society. They are predetermined. The results of all minor controversies are wrapped up in that of the one all-comprehending contest. When the citadel has fallen, it is hopeless to defend the outposts. When the heart has withered, any external bloom must be transitory. When the fountain is cut off, the streams must cease to flow. And so the currents of social improvement must necessarily dry up unless fed from vital and perennial springs of virtue in the individual soul.

Man is no idle spectator of the conflict of the forces of right and wrong. The struggle is always personal, individual.

In Christ, Timothy.

Sister Mary,

I think maybe you are the best friend I have already. In the appearance of it I am well surrounded by friends and family, but I need brothers and sisters who do the "will of my Father." Again, you have a gift for saying hard things gently.

I am what I am by the grace of God. When I found myself in Southeast Asia for the third time, my luggage lost, a new squadron to join, an old war to fight, I discovered that my "gut bag" was empty. But I got through it, and it was the hardest period of my life. The war around me was nothing compared to what was happening inside. My beliefs then had to change, and I needed the Holy Spirit.

The war ended and I transfered to Korea where there was a group of fanatics waiting for me - and I had not told them I was coming. I received the His baptism my first night in Korea, the second night I met Jesus face to face and He said words to me that are yet the direction of my pilgramage.

A full-blown Pentecostal fanatic came home to a traditional Baptist wife - and I had never been to war! Our rift was so terrible the chaplain corps was called in, and half the preachers in the surrounding community. My wife and I became pawns is a greater struggle among doctrines and beliefs. Then, as an AG chaplain ministered to me I declared, confessed, and prayed that I would never learn again from any man: God would teach me or I would remain ignorant!

And so he Has, and I have tried to grasp some of His depth. I went back to graduate school searching for undestanding, and it was not there. So I continued my research here at home. Virtually every morning I can't wait to get to my computer to write down what is emerging into consciousness, a result Jeremiah 33:3 questions previously asked.

One day only a few years ago, a TV evangelist, over the air, gave a prophesy for me. Among other things, He instructed me to "put it together." I have not yet done that and doubt if I can - maybe I need some help from you.

Yet what I know works good for me. Only sorrow comes with it. The fellowship of His suffering means much more to me than correct doctrine. I clearly see the door open for the world to be saved, if we Christians will turn and hear. I was a deacon and lay minister at the local FBC but walked away two months ago - no takers there.

Was it you, Mary, or Linda, who suggested asking God to show us the way. That has been the desire of my heart for a dozen years now, to be a part of a group that will come before Him and confess only our ignorance and inerta, and ask Him if He would take us where He wants to go. And teach us what He wants us to know. Although I believe I am taught by Him, I know I am not the perfect student. But I'm willing to to start over, in Discipleship 101, if there are just three others.

I have been trying to explain Existentialism and answer two previous letters but I lost those attempts due to an older faulty isp, and learning the ways of a new one. I think I am pushing the right buttons now but I think I'll let the academics go till later.

Thanks for being there, Sister.

Hi Ed,

I'm so glad I waited a bit. I was just upstairs praying and hoping you would reply and then I got on here and there you were again. It is really good to have fellowship like this. This is really happening for me too at last, and it isn't long ago I was standing under a tree praying for a handful of sincere Christians, just a few would do, a little flock. I was telling Jay how, after I found everyone here, I passed the same tree and the fence had been taken away from the field where it stands. This sums up my experience - there are no fences, no barriers, no doctrines, no denominations, no traditions of men that can succeed in dividing us since it is the Lord Himself who is making us one, and if we follow Him, and refuse all authority but His we are safe in our fellowship together, we have our unity, and none will take it from us. He commands us to love each other, it is happening here, Ed. I looked at your letter to Hans and Jay, and then Jay's back to you and I had a bit of a cry, it is happening, we are learning and softening and loving each other like we should. The fences have gone, and with it the limits of all expectations in Him. We are going home soon, but we have work to do first, as Jay says. The fences have gone, but the foundation, the Rock, is firmly in place, praise the Lord!

Oh! I see the sweet work that God is doing in you, and I hear your heart, and I feel your sufferings. So many things in this letter of yours will cause the tears to flow in readers here, but sweet tears, like the ones when we meet long lost family, you belong to us, and we to you. We have all had those suffering times, those desperately lonely times, the ones when the people we loved and trusted hated us. But we found Jesus then, didn't we? and we found He was able to rescue us after all when there was no other hope. We found He was faithful and true.

It is a good place to be at the moment here. I am kicking off my shoes. Perhaps we could have a prayer together:

Father, Heavenly Father, how can we thank you enough for the good things you give us, how you are blessing us, and causing the rain to start falling, there is a scent and a sound, and our hearts are ready to receive from you all of the things that you have promised. Lord thank you for Ed, for his honesty and willingness to spend himself on our behalf, thankyou that he allowed us the privilege of hearing his testimony. Lord all those hard lessons are laden with fruit, we ask they ripen perfectly as you have planned, that Ed will see the reason for every bit of heartache and labour, and that it all will bring glory to you. Thank you for Jay, for his vision, for his strength and straightforwardness, and for his deep love for you that is plainly visible. Thank you Lord for Tim, Hans, Linda, and all other contributors here past and present, make us know you are among us, lead us in the way you want us to go, let there be no other leader or teacher or Master but you. As we lift each other in prayer make us know our unity in you in a new way, we cannot hold each other, but as we reach out to each other in you let each be comforted and refreshed and enabled to continue in the way that you lead. You have promised that you are among us where two or three are gathered, so we trust we have your presence . We ask these things in the precious Name of Jesus Christ, AMEN

Much love from Mary

Dear Ed,

Friday, at a used book store in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho - I picked up a book called, "Love Covers" by Paul Billheimer, written in the early 80s. I don't normally choose to read book written by the *moderns* -- but this one I bought. After I got it home, I realized why... :) and I would recommend this book to all.

It is called: Love Covers, A Biblical Design for Unity in the Body of Christ. Paul E. Billheimer, Christian Literature Crusade, 1981

Paul Billheimer shared THE revelation -- THE life-transforming revelation that Love IS the most powerful POWER of all. When THAT revelation takes root in our spirit then we can see/understand Love in a much different light -- for we understand this Question is at the heart of all questions. The working-out of our salvation with fears and traumas, leads us to this choice over and over again. We are askd, will we choose Love? -- even though it might *cost* us our earthly life -- or will we choose to *save* our life instead -- thus confirming that "our treasure" is still here on earth and in self.

From the book...

"The Essence of Truth -- Agape Love."

To major on conceptual truth instead of agape love is actually to forfeit the essence of truth, for the essence of truth IS agape love. Truth is a person. "I" am the truth. (John 14:6) That person is also Love. "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) Things that equal the same thing equal each other. Therefore, error flourishes most in the absence of Agape Love. Agape Love and only Agape Love is a guarantor of truth and is the only thing that unites the Body.

Also.. Agape Love is the only guarantor of truth -- because it is the only guarantor of total objectivity, total honesty, total freedom from bias and prejudice. Agape is the only thing that delivers from self-interest.. self-centeredness -- and self-love. All or any of these are certain to corrupt, distort and falsify all views of truth. For this reason, Agape Love and only Agape Love is a guarantor of truth.

Scholarship is considered the means.. the process.. the technique by which Truth is discovered, verified and communicated. But scholarship which ignores the importance.. necessity and relevance of Agape is suspect, deficient and ineffectual. Therefore Agape Love is an essential ingredient to genuine scholarship. I consider this one of the most important concepts in this book.

To major on conceptual truth and make it a criterion of 'fellowship' is to rend the Body since "we know in part only". To major in Agape Love is to heal and unite because Love covers and if permitted, like a rising flood, wipes out every wall of separation and division. Agape Love unites because it encompassess, embraces, and transcends all truth. Therefore, "let Love be your Greatest (Supreme) Aim." 1 Cor 14:1 LB

ONLY ONE POWER To this present day, with few exceptions, the Church has failed to comprehend that Agape Love is the Ultimate and therefore the Supreme Power in the universe. Jesus said, "All Power is given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth." (Matt 28:18) If this is literally true, there is only one power in the universe. So far as universal cosmic intelligence is concerned, power that is not permanent is no power at all -- even while it masquerades as such. This is the way God sees it, because He Lives in Eternity and sees things from the Eternal Standpoint. Viewed from an Eternal Standpoint, Power that is not permanent is already destroyed. Therefore -- every thought.. word.. plan.. purpose, motive or action that does not originate in and operate by Agape Love is counterproductive. It ingests the seeds of its own destruction. Any work -- or ministry -- that is built and maintained by any other method than Agape Love -- any religious success that is achieved or promoted by anything else -- is therefore false, fading and illusory. Such 'labor For God' is only shadow boxing.

Agape Love is the only redeeming force in the universe.

I can only say.. Amen and so be it Lord. You created us to be an expression of Your Glory -- and expression of Your Love. May we be so -- choosing Love over self-protection in whatever form that might take. Father, please open our eyes to see the conflict -- and in the choice, let us choose Love.

In That Light which consumes all others.
yours and HIS, Linda

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