Mother Mary
Mother Mary, pray for us. Pray for us sinners here on earth. We have known your pain but see your glory and ask for you to look down on us and watch over us and pray that we will be led from temptation. We are not worthy and we humbly ask you to pray for us that we have the strength to boldly approach the throne of Jesus and partake of His marvelous grace.
In the name of your blessed Son Jesus
Amen
Intercessory Prayer. What a wonderful thing but not everyone is called to do it. Even so, we should all have enough faith in prayer itself to be able to trust another to intercede for us and have the freedom to ask one who is called to do it. Mary is called to intercessory prayer and the dialogue starts here because in a very real way, she represents the ideal in the sanctified church triumphant. Any relationship with Mary leads us spiritually toward her Son Jesus as well as all the other saints. Out of all the people in the world, we may have faith that Mary is sanctified, dwells in eternity and is in the presence of her Son as part of His Body, our church.
The time is now and has been for Jesus to set upon His throne. There are seven spirits that represent the church and each has a light before the throne that need not be extinguished. Those martyrs of the faith and those that can accept us all in love are part of what is a holy and spotless Bride but we can all be a part of that. This is not something that we take a vote on and come to consensus, love is something that we are identified by.
The responses below represent what is good and bad with this discussion and each is valid dialogue. They are also made up of hurt feelings that can be empathized with to begin healing and of the steps involved for us to walk in unity.
From the discussion so far:
There are traditions of men and the doctrines of demons from all branches of a divided church. There is however a righteous tradition in all the branches that restores us to the faith of our fathers.
There is hurt and resentment involved from previously studying from those in any part of the church that leads us away from knowledge of the truth and a healthy spiritual life. This hurt needs to be healed in some way for love and forgiveness to begin. Reconciliation comes through repentance and forgiveness.
Protestants and Catholics can work together but they must be on the same side to do it. Taking sides must not be according to labels and denominations but rather all of us being on the same side with Jesus. There is no Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox or Baptist or Pentecostal in this restoration - Only us with Jesus in our midst. The more we decrease, the more Jesus increases.
There is only one savior and only one mediator between man and God - Jesus. As His Body, we have the freedom to intercede for others and ask for prayers. Praying to saints is idolotrous but asking them to pray for us comes with valid spiritual power. The more collective spiritual action, the more power. As we believe in miracles, they can and do occur.
We must acknowledge the real presence of Jesus when we come to union or we lack the faith to know Him personally.
That we all affirm that we are saved by grace. None of us are perfect and certainly not any group of us, so have nothing to boast. Only Jesus is the corner of the truth, we know only in part and a house together stands strong.
There is enough love to go around. If we are to be among the remnant, it is because of our love and unity according to spirit and truth. The gates of the temple are as wide as the arms of Jesus and if it is true that "we" are to open the gates, then open them wide.
This is the move that God will bring us together in unity and spirit to restore the church. It is harvest time and the wheat will be in with the tares but it is not up to us to sift, only gather. While we open the gates and our own arms wide in love, let us not forget to invite Jesus in so that He may set upon His throne. Then may we be among those that lay down their crowns at His feet.
Get ready, get set...
Jay
Hi Jay, It is good to see so many more people involved in this dialogue.
What a really explosive topic to take on, so we are again called to
"dismantle" landmines if possible as we tread lightly through the open
fields of this very difficult debate. I agree, we will have to maintain the
unity of the spirit until we all come into the unity of the doctrines the
Apostles have given us to live according to in this world.
Years ago, we had a man who had spent thirteen years in communist
prison in Bulgaria stay with us for a week. I spent lots of time listening,
asking questions and learning "at his feet" how to enjoy "deep waters"
without fear of drowning, so to speak. One of the things he told me was how
this problem of separation between Catholics and Protestants ended nearly
immediately in Bulgaria during the Communist takeover of their land. It was
a separation of "true" and "false" believers that exposed the reality of
"who was who" in the Church at large. To put it simply, Pastor Popov (who
was the leader of the whole Baptist Church in his nation) had always
preached a hard line against Catholic teachings and never had personal
aquaintances with leaders from that church. He said when he was thrown into
prison and shared a cell with Catholic priests who were there for the same
reason he was (they refused to deny faith in the Lord and betray their
members by giving lists to the Communist authorities revealing their
identities) he learned the lessons nothing else but persecution and
suffering teach us as members of Christ's Body.
"When you are sick and cold
and hurting and your brother shares his last piece of bread with you,
covers you with his own blanket and comforts you in the Name of the Lord,
things like whether or not he is praying to Saints and believes that the
elements are really the body and blood of our Saviour really don't matter
to you any longer. He is your brother. He has just shown you the LOVE of
Jesus and BEEN Jesus to you as well as seeing YOU as JESUS to HIM"....maybe
that is not the exact quote, it has been nearly fifteen years to date since
he was with us. But that is the spirit of what he said and very close to
the words he used.
Hopefully, we will not have to wait for persecution and
a prison experience before we learn to love in that way, to share our lives
with all who name His Name and work together as well as live together in
the "bond of peace" as we all pray "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in
earth as it is in Heaven." That has to be our true goal in preaching the
gospel in this world or we have lost sight of why Jesus came to begin with
and what He is coming back for! His PURE and SPOTLESS BRIDE, without spot,
wrinkle or blemish, ONE WITH EACH OTHER and WITH HIM, as HE and HIS FATHER
ARE ONE. I think that is going to be accomplished through the power of the
HOLY SPIRIT alone as we seek Him with all our heart and soul and mind and
strength, and simply obey His commandments to LOVE one another as He has
first loved us. This will work, for sure, it has been tried, tested and
true for centuries to all who have practiced that very simple and sure way
in deed and in TRUTH. Blessings, Karen
Dear Jay and all Lovers of God,
This desire for Love to flow all through the Vine has taken root in me too. In
1990, when the Lord first filled me with His Love, He then took me, a
spirit-filled protestant, into the writings of the past to be mentored by 'the
beguines'. These were spirit-filled, Lovers of God and Catholic mystics.. I
know it was the Lord who led, and so I had to deny alot of my 'fortress
mentality' (flesh) at that point, in obedience to Him, for I had learned, as so
many of us, that Catholics weren't Christians at all. (forgiveness please). As
the Holy Spirit taught/challenged me through their relationship with Him, I
first became aware of this "communion of the saints" that flowed horizontally,
through time.. for in the Spirit there is no "time". I was being challenged by
the same Holy Spirit as they had been. I was learning many of the same lessons
as they had learned.. and I began to see them as my teachers/mentors... in
1990, there was not yet this worldwide flowing forth of the Agape of God being
poured out upon the Church as it is now. I was alone in my great passionate
Love-Affair with Jesus.. and they, the Beguine "Love-Mystics" were expressing
what I was experiencing!
A second understanding began to filter into my mind from my/His Spirit.. for
united with Christ, the Word says, we become one with His Spirit. These
Catholics, I could no longer think of, as not being "Christian". If the Holy
Spirit led me to them to learn from.... they were as Christian as I was, and I
was no longer "afraid" to begin to feast upon the early writings of the Church.
My understanding of "the Church" has been expanded. [The Holy Spirit did it by
taking Paul's letter to the Corinthians, concerning the many parts of the Body,
saying: 'What if the Catholics are my hands? What if the Methodists are my
feet? What if the Baptists are my legs?... on and on.." My application of that
teaching was taken outside the walls of my own denomination that day, and my
vision of the Church was transformed- quickened!]
Next the Holy Spirit took me to the Orthodox to learn the difference between
created and uncreated energies... to be filled with passion for the grand and
glorious Treasure they have preserved. I feasted upon The Mystical Theology of
the Eastern Church, as the Holy Spirit opened up my mind to see and receive the
teachings of the Trinity, the Uncreated Energies of God and the wondrous desire
of His Heart for union with us, for His Glory! My little protestant heart was
being expanded to see the Wonder and Glory of His Church... each part thinking
they have the whole truth, and yet each part having most wonderfully preserved
one part of the Truth.. now to be brought into the fullness of Time, for all to
receive, if they are willing.
I carry in my heart a vision concerning this gathering of the Church. I see the
world divided up in little boxes.. each box divides us from one another, and
yet, the walls also connect us. But there are no lids on the boxes. In each
box, there is a "Treasure" which has been preserved and protected by that
'box'. Inside the boxes are a people who are hearing the Call to LOVE. Their
hearts are responding to this Call.. and in Love, they are rising up, through
the open lids, to the One who is calling them to Love. As they rise up, they
are discovering others who also are rising up from their boxes in response to
Love's Call... and there in the air, outside of the boxes, they are enveloped
in Christ, in Him, in Love. No longer do doctrinal differences even matter,
because like the early disciples, we have to say, if God has accepted them (us)
who are we to reject? Love is the Call and will cause a peoples to actually
appreciate "our differences", recognizing that each one manifests a different
facet of God... and that "we" are incomplete without every one fully expressing
their own Love-relationship with God, and so we rejoice in our differences and
our likenesses in Christ, knowing and seeing Christ Jesus in a much "bigger"
way. Growing in the Grace and Knowledge of Him and seeing that "we" are the
Treasure God is after. He has given us His Heart.. and where His Heart is, so
there also is His Treasure! Hallelujah! LOVE-LOVE-LOVE...for this is our
likeness to Him!
There is a scripture the Lord continues to use to encourage me to continue
feasting on the old teachings.. and that is Matt 13:52: "Then He said unto
them: Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven,
is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his
treasure, [things] new and old." We are not expressing any "new truths" as
F.D. Meyer said... but "we are rediscovering the old ones!" May the Church
rise up in Love.. from all our boxes and be made One in Christ, who is Love and
who is our Life, and let His Love cover a multitude of our sins!
Forever thankful for His Love,
Dear Jay,
In regarding your thrust to encourage 'Catholic-Protestant Dialogue', I would like to take the opportunity to convey some thoughts as to what this movement would involve in being united in any way with Catholicism as it
is. I realize that you believe that dialogue will be helpful, but I do not believe it will bring about unity. Once a Catholic myself, I know how deep their belief system is and how very difficult it is for those of the
hierarchy to change their minds regarding doctrine. They have too much to lose.
In remembering doctrine that I was taught as a Catholic, in all sincerity I cannot as a Christian come into agreement with it, or have the same mind and judgement in which we are exhorted to do in 1Cor. 1:9 and others
scriptures.
The blessed mother (Mary), was according to the traditional beliefs of the church, born without sin and did not die but ascended into heaven. There is a celebrated feast day for her virgin birth and ascension, but at the moment I cannot recall the name. Because of this, Catholics pray to Mary as their savior. Protestants know that Jesus Christ, and Him alone is their Salvation. That He was the sacrificial Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, outside of which there is no other salvation. Catholics are taught that their salvation comes through the baptism of christening within the catholic church. This takes place as a new born infant is sprinkled with water and prayed over with a blessing of absolution. Consequently there is no repentance for their sin. The nearest thing to repentance is confirmation and confession. Conformation is a ritual in which catholic's are confirmed to be in Jesus, and they are told that if they sin they should go to the the
priest and confess there sin. They are then given absolution, which means they are forgiven by the priest along with penance to atone for their sin and to prove their remorse. The understanding of the true atonement is vague to say the least, in fact almost all Catholics that I have spoken to about this issue of atonement have virtually no true understanding about the true work of redemption of Christ on the cross.
They mostly believe in two things; The traditions of the church, and some of the Bible. For instance, they have five other books besides the Protestant books, and because of these they are under the persuasion that Jesus had no brothers or sisters because Mary was without sin. 1.To say that Mary is without sin is an abomination to the word of God. "For we all have sinned and come short of His Glory". 2. Also they teach that Jesus is literally in the Eucharist. This cannot be for the scriptures tell us that He resides in temples not made with hands. 3.And that communion is actually His blood, when scripture tells us that we are to
take communion in remembrance of Him, not His blood. 4.Catholic's are taught to pray to the saints. The Bible says that, Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man. 5.They are taught to pray to Mary. Again the Bible
declares that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. How can I come into agreement with these obvious errors? The Bible tells us, "How can two walk together unless they agree" Amos 3:2. These issues are too important to put aside for the sake of agreement. Strength comes to the body of Christ untied in and by the truth.
For 5 years I taught a women's Bible study at a Catholic church. It was one of the most delightful experiences of my life. These women were so precious in their desire to serve God. However, if I got too "Protestant" in my teachings, the woman in charge who was once a Catholic nun and attended both Protestant and Catholic churches, immediately resisted the work of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, I left frustrated each time for they were hungry to receive.
I could go on and on about many things. It is my firm belief that one must come out of this system to truly have salvation. For they first must be taught correctly the truth and then not be allowed to continue in these
deceptions. How does one go back to the Catholic church after learning the truth and continue in these practices?
May God by His Holy Spirit draw us into one mind and one body and one judgement. 1Cor. 1:9.
To His Glory,
Patricia
What about "Come out of her, my people"???? Oh my, but you have gone too
far....Sounds to me as if you are guilty of Ecumenicism. You have gone WAY
TOO FAR!!!!! Please remove me from your mailing list. I do not want your
demons coming my way, mister!!!!!!
I think Protestants AND Catholics should drop their extra labels, doctrines,
traditions, rituals, etc. Then and only then can we even begin to come close
to being one. Tolerating each others traditions of men and doctrines of
demons, which ALL denominations are filled with will NEVER produce a mature
united body of Christ on earth. Neither Roman Catholicism or any other ism
should be tolerated and accepted. It should be exposed as the lie that it
is. Period.
Gary Amirault
Jay,
Great subject for dialogue! I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic
grade school. I followed the passions of my youth for a number of years
before being born again in my mid twenties (I am presently 39). The Lord
used the Jimmy Swaggart Telecast as an instrument to woo me to himself. So,
of course, I began favoring pentecostal and charismatic churches for a
number of years. (I've been born again for about 12 years now) My family
and I now serve in the Evangelical Free Church. Our daughter attends Jimmy
Swaggart's Bible College and we are thankful for that. I guess my point is
that I have an appreciation for many different flavors, and I agree with you
that the word "protestant" does not apply today.
Another point I will make here is that, although we are led by the Spirit,
we should not throw off everything having the hint of tradition.
Ironically, the churches that do that the most, namely the charismatic
churches, actually have just as much tradition in their line as the Catholic
Church; they just don't think they do.
Dan Delagrave
Hi Jay:
I enjoyed the mailing.
I have a few thoughts and responses.
You wrote: "The Catholic-Protestant debate has been raging on for
centuries. Only in recent decades has there been what we could call true
dialogue between them and less closed-minded debate and diatribe but there
is still too much pride on each side and not enough love to come together."
The Holy Spirit is working on the entire Body of Christ in a major way these
days. I am blessed when I see brothers from different christian traditions
discuss their similarities and differences with respect and real love for
each other. And by different, I don't mean Methodists and Baptists.
Protestants and Catholics, Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, Eastern
Orthodox and Catholics.
You wrote: "Whether you agree or not, the reformation was especially good
for the Roman Catholic Church through the counter-reformation response and
of the efforts of Vatican II since."
I think the vast majority of informed Roman Catholics would completely agree
with this, although a small but very vocal reactionary right wing element
does exist within Catholicism that thinks the Tridentine mass was the only
divinely sanctioned liturgy. Why? Because it is apparently common
knowledge that the Trinity speaks Latin.
You wrote: "As a group that has discussed many things already, we can start
with what we positively agree upon which is Jesus. We have decided that we
are Trinitarian, we believe in His Incarnation, the virgin birth, the
Atonement, His bodily resurrection, His Second Coming." Amen
You wrote: "We believe that he has saved us by our faith in Him through
grace,"
To quote St. Paul . . .For it is by grace you have been saved, through
faith --and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by
works, so that no one can boast (Eph. 2:8,9)
I actually think there is a subtle, but substantive difference here. We are
saved by HIS grace which is accessed through our faith. This wording places
more of the salvation process into God's hands. I don't think we are saved
by OUR faith in Him, even the faith we have is the gift of God . . . an act
of grace.
You wrote: "we believe in scripture as divine, we believe in heaven and
hell, of demons and angels, the communion of saints and affirm the early
creeds of the faith." Amen!! I love your emphasis on our very real (and
essential) common ground.
You wrote: "Other things must be discussed such as the priesthood of all
believers . . . As long as the separation of clergy and laity exists, as
long as the priesthood of all believers is not acknowledged . . ."
I am going to quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1546:
"Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church 'a
kingdom, priests for his God and Father.' The whole community of believers
is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood
through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's
mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and
Confirmation the faithful are 'consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood.'"
I quoted this, because if we differ, we should differ on accurate
perceptions of our differences. Too many of my protestant brothers accuse
the church I am a part of for not teaching this. I hope this quote may help
dispel that faulty notion.
There is an aspect of "ministerial or hierachical" priesthood which works
itself out as a difference in "function" of the priestly offices we all
hold. I will quote again from the Catechism #1547:
"The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests, and the
common priesthood of all the faithful participate, 'each in its own proper
way, in the one priesthood of Christ.' While being 'ordered one to
another,' they differ essentially. In what sense? While the common
priesthood of the faithful is excercised by the unfolding of baptismal
grace --a life of faith, hope, and charity, a life according to the
Sprirt--, the ministerial priesthood is at the SERVICE of the common
priesthood. It is directed at the unfolding of the baptismal grace of all
Christians. The ministerial priesthood is a MEANS by which Christ
unceasingly builds up and leads his Church. For this reason it is
transmitted by its own sacrament, the sacrament of Holy Orders."
As we read this, it should be apparent that the nicolation errors that
occur within the catholic church are not there because the church teaches
leading by domination . . .but perhaps . . could it be . . that sinful man
in the priestly office occaisionally executes his office in a manner that
actually harms the church? Indeed the Catechism states in #1550:
"This presence of Christ in the minister is not to be understood as if the
latter were preserved from all human weaknesses, THE SPIRIT OF DOMINATION,
error, even sin. The power of the Holy Spirit does not guarantee all acts
of ministers in the same way. While this guarantee extends to the
sacraments, so that even the minister's sin cannot impede the fruit of
grace, in many other acts the minister leaves human traces that are not
always signs of fidelity to the Gospel and consequently can harm the
apostolic fruitfulness of the Church." continuing in #1551 . . "This
priesthood is ministerial. 'That office . . . which the Lord committed to
the pastors of his people, is in the strict sense of the term a SERVICE. . .
.The exercise of this authority must therefore be measured against the model
of Christ, who by love made himself THE LEAST AND SERVANT OF ALL."
The nicolaitan errors that you rightfully shine the light on, are a result
of individuals sinning in their offices, whether Catholic, E. Orthodox or
Protestant. Interestingly, I find that protestant pastors tend to be more
domineering/controlling than the Roman Catholic priests I know. There is a
different mentality in the various traditions, that is reflected in how
power/authority/leadership is wielded.
You wrote: "as long as the blood of Christ is withheld from the
congregation in the Eucharist,"
It isn't, the cup of Christ's blood is offered to everyone during mass . . .
i receive it weekly along with the Body. Although, we teach that the entire
Real Presence of Jesus is present in either form, we are free to accept
both.
I was going to try and comment on the teaching that Protestants and most E.
Orthodox are not to receive communion in the Roman Catholic Communion. .
.(actually if you went up and tried to receive, how would they know you
weren' catholic?). There is actually a very reasonable (and I think
justifiable) rationale for their position. Alternatively, I would also
agree with the orthodox withholding from catholics . . .but perhaps I will
discuss this another time.
Jay, at the end of the day, I think that what I quote is cause for you to
rejoice! Because the very valid concerns you voice, have at least been
echoed by the Vatican. The question is one of further implementation by the
bishops and priests . . . but even more than that . . .further
sanctification and dying to themselves so that they can participate and thus
lead in His resurrection power. I know that most protestants would be
surprised to find these teachings exist. And when they do . . . ironically,
many do not rejoice. The historic sins of the Catholic church may just be
too difficult to forget or forgive. Nevertheless, the is the entire Body's
call. When forgiveness happens, it is a sure sign that we are dying to
ourselves. John Paul II has been asking for forgiveness (there is even a
book with a similar title . . When a Pope asks forgiveness). . .
God Bless you Jay . . . these discussions are not easy to moderate.
chuckler
I've been involved in Catholic-Protestant dialogue for 35 years. In the same
way that the first century church had to deal with the Jerusalem church
along with Antioch, Ephesus, etc., we have to assume there will be some
differences, even major ones. I don't know many if any Christians on either
side who think they're the only ones. There is one church even now, filled
with people who enjoy different ways to worship and even serve. ~Loader
Hello, Jay --
When I saw the new story on the English queen (a so-called "head" of the church) and the Pope
(also a so-called "head" of the church) meeting and agreeing that their two organizations could
possibly work things out, my first response was that they are participating in an activity
which has nothing whatsoever to do with the kingdom of God. My first response has remained
with me.
I don't believe that there's much work to do to bring the two "sides" together. We might see
genuine believers confused by the anti-Scriptural "denomination game," but among the true Body
of Christ, there are no "sides." This phenomenon isn't surprising, because the majority of
believers seem to be confused by the anti-Scriptural clergy-laity "game" also.
To my understanding, the word "denomination" derives from the Latin to mean, loosely, "of the
name." The only work that I see regarding true believers is that all participation with any
other name (i.e., "denomination") be renounced once and for all. I also believe that part of
the LORD's purification of His Body will be to wake it up to the immediate need for just such a
renunciation.
I believe that genuine born-again ones are constantly sucked into false issues because
particularly foul errors such as denominationalism and clergy-laity "ism" are not renounced.
I do not know if the true Body of Christ will still be on the earth for this purification or
not. If it is, THEN you will see legitimate "sides": those who go by the Name (Jesus) in
honesty and purity, and those who insist on going by some other name, whether of an individual
or an organization.
I realize that talk such as the above is not conducive to everyone "getting along." I know
that it draws a line. However, I believe that the LORD (Who is longsuffering and abundant in
goodness and truth) is in the process of "drawing the line" and letting His born-again folk
know about it. The subjects of denominationalism and the clergy-laity falsehood are coming up
almost wherever I see believers meet, whether in a literal building or in cyberspace. I
believe that the LORD has started to wake up His born-again ones.
By the way, I'm sure that many born-again ones who participate in the Roman denomination
sincerely think that they are both Scriptural AND are teaching the "Catholic faith" at the same
time. Of course, there is no such spiritually valid thing as the "Catholic faith," any more
than there is such a thing as the "Protestant faith." Again -- false issues caused by the
mixture of religion and Scripture.
So much for now!
Yours in the Beloved, even Jesus the Annointed,
Jay, I am neither catholic or protestant, I am a baptist. If you study
the baptist history, you will find out that it was the protestants who
drove the baptist out of europe, with many a fine saint and martyr.
Dear Jay,
As the expression "Communion of Saints" is from the so-called Apostles'
Creed rather than the Bible, though there are similar expressions in it e.g.
1 John 1:7 I would find it difficult to prove a Scriptural meaning for it.
Further, there is a lot covered in your comments and it would take me a lot
of time to touch on it all. I did relatively recently write a short article
entitled "After death - The Disembodied Condition" together with five
appendices (1) "Sheol (Hades), Heaven and Hell" (2) "Comments on Luke
16:19-31" (3) "Resurrection of the Body" (4) "Burial or Cremation" (5)
"Consulting the Dead". I could attach all or any of these to an e-mail if
this was wanted. The main article is 7 pages long with the wording double
spaced. Each appendix is at most 3 pages long.
I had better stop now.
I would urge that we all agree on this crucial point: NO Denomination,
NONE, are "right". Not Protestant, and not Catholic. ALL Denominations are
institutions of MEN, and do NOT please God.
No church based on ANYTHING other than following is acceptable to the Lord
Jesus Christ:
THE CHURCH, the TRUE Church will come OUT of all of these, eventually.
As to people of certain denominations being saved or not, there is only ONE
way that happens anyway, isn't there ? Repentance of Sin and Acceptance of
the Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ who died for all of us. Anyone,
anywhere, in any cavern, cave, prison, bar, or 'Denomination' can and will
be saved if they call upon the Name of the Lord. Period.
The various delusions and errors in ANY individual Denomination, which are
almost without number, could be discussed endlessly, of course. Although we
are told to 'study to show ourselves approved', and to 'exercise Spiritual
Discernment', we should not totally ignore delusion, error, and false
teaching, but it would be utterly pointless to attack each other on such
points. Satan has designed this for exactly this purpose !
RevDeb
I heard Dr. Mahesh Chavda say " after all of my study I have come to
one conclusion.
God is a Good God and the devil is a bad devil ! " Amen!
One of the great theologians was once asked ,"what is the most profound
thing you have learned in your life time of study. " His answer was,
"Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so."
In the midst of our discussions let us not forget these basics. I think
we can unite and rally around both of these statements. This is our
common ground and let us not stray too far from it. As long as there
are individuals there will be a diversity of opinion in some areas. Let
us not stray from the centrality and truth of the word of God. Let us
not stray from the great commission given to us by our Lord. let us not
attempt to argue how many angels can stand on the point of a pin. Let
us unite around those things which are clear and concrete in the word of
God. Let us endeavor to keep the unity of the faith by embracing the
fundamental teachings and avoiding speculation concerning those things
that we see through a glass darkly until we see Him face to face. Let us
not be caught up in defending denominations but let us be caught up in
HIM.
Jesus instructed his disciples to pray thusly, "Our Father which art
in heaven." Scripture(Holy canon) does not instruct us to pray to the
saints or to Mary Why not follow the pattern that Jesus left for us and
pray to Our Father, asking in the name of Jesus. Why try to diversify
by establishing our own path of prayer. There is one mediator. our Lord
Jesus, the Great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the
everlasting covenant.
Hebrews 13:20-21
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man
Christ Jesus. 1 Tim. 2:5
Do you want to pray the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man that
availeth much? Then follow the pattern of Elijah who prayed earnestly
that it would not rain and it did not rain on the land for three yars
and six months. (James 5:17)
Who did Elijah pray to? I kings 18:36 ,the
Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.
The Bible is clear concerning who we are to pray to . It does not
instruct us to pray to saints or to Mary. The Bible is the standard by
which everything must be measured. If we will follow THE MANUFACTURERS
INSTRUCTIONS we will get it together right.
Closing for now,
Jay,
The Catholic - Protestant Dialogue, and a host of other divisive forces are
the very reasons why I believe Christ is not coming back any time soon.
This dialogue consists of so much of man's own understanding that actions
resulting from it have promoted Satan's causes to the utmost. Let's take
the Catholic Church, for example. I have nothing against Catholics, but I
have a problem with accepting the fact that the church deemed itself to have
authority over God's word and changed the Sabbath Day from Saturday to
Sunday. Let's take a look at the Protestant side of things, concerning this
same issue. With the exception of a few denominations, Sunday is the day of
fellowship. The pure member of the Church in which Jesus is coming back to
head will have to be bold enough and truthful enough to admit to the
incorrectness of this outrageous abomination, and open-hearted, open-minded
and forgiving enough to accept the fact that since we are under grace, we
can respect the Sabbath and Fellowship on Sundays.
I believe when we remove "man" from the word of God, we can simplify things.
Certainly we must study the word of God, but we must be careful to abstain
from too much of our own understanding. The resulting plethora of
Protestant doctrines and the many, many rituals, statues, symbols and
statutes of ambiguity in Catholicism leave us divided, angry, doubtful and
completely void of love.
A Church of Christ Minister once told me, "God built a house for man. Man
has come in and ornamented, painted, moved and changed that house so much
that the one, true house is hidden. Until we find it, we will never be able
to find God's true purpose." Jesus gave us instructions for His church. He
left us with two great commandments. Yet somehow in the dogma of
selfishness, we have lost the instructions, and we ad-lib our way through
things now. But we still think that Christ is coming back to this hateful,
dispair-ridden, prideful, sickness-filled, diseased, racist,
over-doctrinated, and divided body that we dare to call, "The Church." A
body which cannot even heal itself of the simplest ailments because there is
no harmony within its immune system, and its other defenses can't tell the
enemy from other members.
Jay, I truly believe that you were on the right track when you were dealing
with the Manifest Sons of God. You know why? Because this is the army of
healers, teachers, speakers, prophets, pastors and apostles that were going
to bring about the real church, and pave the way for the return of Christ.
Feed an army that will build upon the pure, raw and nourishing truth of a
church filled with the manifestations of the gifts of the Master - the Five
Fold Ministry. This is highly relevant to our discussion here, because it
is the one thing that can obliterate any confusion.
The real church or body of Jesus will not be cloaked in some "ism" or
"ology" or blatant attempt on the part of man to differentiate and divide.
Just as our Heavenly Father is clothed in majestic light much mightier than
the sun, so the real church will be clothed in Faith. For Jesus' love, we
must have faith. And when we reach this one accord, then and only then,
will Jesus return.
Bill Caraway
What a mess!!!! Just unbelievable. Well, no I'm not really surprised.
Once I asked the Lord to show me my sin. He laughed, and just said "all
of it, all at once", and laughed again. How ignorant I am. Who was it
that said, "take up your cross and follow me"? Its simple for a believer
and impossible for a "wanabee". Sorry that just the way it is. Jesus
wasn't too concerned with finding common ground. Keep on
intellectualizing or enter into "Rest" the choice is yours. Do
you ever wonder why God made Jesus a Jew? If you call yourself a
believer Ask Him, and then hold on tight.
BOB M WALKER
The Lord is in the process of healing the schism between the Protestant and Catholic
believers. We need to put our focus where there is unity; the Cross and the Blood.
Since Martin Luther and the reformation we non-Catholics protest anything that's
Catholic. I believe the Lord wants to up-cap the ancient wells of the Catholic Mystics and
desert Fathers and bring them into the Protestant Church.
Fiery forerunners such as John of the Cross, Bernard of Clairvoux, Catherine of Sienna,
and Teresa of Avila inspire us. They possessed powerful keys to unlock the heavens. These
mystics have inspired prayer movements throughout the centuries affecting generations from the
common people to politicians and rulers.
These Mothers and Fathers of the Church are a part of our genetic DNA and had powerful
revelations and visitations. Prayer furnaces have started all over the world whether they are
called, IHOP, The Burning Bush, The Lighthouse, etc. This fire of intercession and travail is
moving across all boundaries and bringing healing and unity to the Body of Christ.
Jill Austin
Every believer as well as every minister of Christ must decide
whether he will put his emphasis upon the majors or the minors. He
must decide whether he will stay by the sober truths which
constitute the beating heart of the Scriptures or turn his attention
to those marginal doctrines which always bring division and which,
at their best, could not help us much on our way to the Celestial
City. A.W. Tozer - The Next Chapter After the Last, 11,14.
"Oh God, we are so inundated with distracting things and clamorous
voices. Deliver me today from the trifling things and help me to
spend every minute of the day on 'the things that matter.' Amen."
October 28, 2000
your sister, Linda the Beguine
Tim L. Whittington
Thanks Tim.
Regarding the above subject, (Communion of Saints) assuming I am not too late with my
comments, I would mention that it has not been my understanding of Scripture
that when we become a Christian we return to the state of innocence that
existed before Adam sinned. My dictionary gives one meaning of innocence as
"one with no knowledge of evil". This cannot now apply to us for since Adam
sinned we know good and evil (Genesis 3:22) and do not lose that knowledge by
becoming a Christian (Hebrews 5:14). We may of course use the word innocent
in another sense, i.e. as blameless, but it rather I think confuses our
understanding of Scripture if we do. Scripture, so far as the translations I
normally use are concerned, does not use the word innocent for the state of a
Christian, but other words, such as forgiven, justified etc.
Christian love
Gordon W. Simmonds
Love
Alice Weeks
Submitted by Elias ShuaLatter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
Issue Oriented Discussion Newsletter
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